August 9, 2025 • 47 mins
On this summer best-of Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, it’s best-selling author and speaker, Dr. Kevin Leman! He wants to help unleash your world-changing potential. He’ll talk about how to become a great leader. If you can learn what makes people do what they do and uniquely motivate them, you’re on your way to success. Hear more leadership inspiration on Building Relationships with Gary Chapman.
Featured resource: Be a Great Leader by Friday: 5 Winning Plays to Spark Your World-Changing Potential
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
To get behind that person's eyes and to make sure
that person is not only on the right bus, but
the right seat of the bus. You really have to
take the time to know and learn and understand how
that person sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There
is a method to the madness, so to speak, here.
S2 (00:23):
Welcome to Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
internationally known psychologist, radio and TV personality, educator and author
Doctor Kevin Leman joins us. If you're in any kind
of leadership position and you want to improve your skills,
today's program is for you.
S3 (00:43):
Doctor Leman has written more than 70 books that have
helped people of all ages. You may know him from
his work on birth order and on this summer Best
of Broadcast. We're going to talk about Be a Great
Leader by Friday. Five winning plays to spark your world
changing potential. It's our featured resource at Building Relationships. Gary,
(01:05):
you've known a lot of leaders through the years. What
do you see as one of the top characteristics of
a good one?
S4 (01:11):
You know, Chris, I think I would say be authentic.
Tell the truth. Don't tell one person one thing and
another person another thing. Uh, and I would also say,
not only that, but be open to input from the
people on your team, whatever your leadership role. Uh, don't
(01:32):
be limited to your own wisdom. Uh, ask for ideas
on how we can make things better and be open
to considering those ideas. Uh, those are a couple of
thoughts that come to my mind. But I am really
excited about our program today because Doctor Kevin Leman, I've
known him for a long, long time, and I think
this is going to help a lot of folks. And listen,
everybody's a leader in some area. Okay.
S3 (01:53):
Exactly. Yes.
S4 (01:54):
If you're only leading your dog, you're still a leader. Okay.
So I hope our listeners will stay tuned to us
and we're going to learn some good things.
S3 (02:04):
Well, Doctor Kevin Leman is The New York Times best
selling author of more than 70 books, including the birth
order book Have a New Kid by Friday. Making Children Mind,
Without Losing Yours, and many others. He's made thousands of
house calls through radio and TV programs. A practicing psychologist
for 40 plus years, Doctor Lima has helped millions understand
(02:25):
the dynamics of healthy relationships. He and his wife, Sandy,
live in Arizona. They have five children, four grandchildren. His book,
Be a Great Leader by Friday as our featured resource,
just go to Building Relationships.
S4 (02:39):
Well, Doctor Leman, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1 (02:43):
Well, you know what? We go back a long time.
I was just thinking. I think your son was 14
years old when I had dinner in your home years ago.
So just how many years ago was that?
S4 (02:56):
Well, he's 50. He's 54 now.
S1 (03:00):
40 years do go way back. But you know, I'm
so glad when they when they asked you about, you know,
marks of a leader, you started with authenticity. And maybe I'll,
I'll tag along on that because leave it to a
bunch of experimental psychologists. Check this one out. They found
(03:21):
a shepherd with a large flock of sheep, and they
thought they would try an experiment. They took the shepherd
out of the flock. They found someone of his approximate stature.
The impostor actually wore the same clothing that the shepherd
(03:43):
had on. They digitized his call. And today, with electronics,
you can nail a, uh, sound perfectly. And they bellowed
it across the meadow, and all the sheep did something interesting.
They turned around and they looked, but they didn't follow
(04:06):
the imposter shepherd. Isn't that interesting? We think that sheep
are stupid. I'm here to tell you. I think sheep
are pretty smart. But if you're going to be a leader.
And by the way, if you have to tell people
that you're a leader, you're not. The point is that
for a leader to be effective, there has to be
(04:27):
that authenticity. And without that, you're going to fail. So
this book that I've done, um, uh, be a great
leader by Friday, and I admit, I got hung up
on Friday on several of my books, but it's it's
really it's really the sequel to The Way of the Shepherd,
which has been a mega bestseller. It's still in hardback
(04:49):
for 20 years. Anybody who knows the book industry knows
that after one year in hardback, it gets dropped into paper.
So the way the shepherd is sort of the big
picture of leadership, this is sort of for the person
who is struggling, uh, from the wannabe, a leader to
the CEO to the CFO. It could probably be titled
(05:12):
How to Succeed in Life, because I think the basic
truths that are in this leadership book help you in
every aspect of your life, whether it's your marriage or
your parenthood, or in your work as a as a
manager or a business person.
S4 (05:27):
Yeah. Well, yeah. You've written a lot, of course, birth order.
All of us are familiar with that. And but also relationships, marriage, parenting,
all those things. Uh, but I don't I don't know
that you've written a book on leadership before. So what
what motivated you to write a book on leadership?
S1 (05:43):
Well, Gary, it was a God thing, as you as
you recall, we used to have these, uh, big Christian
booksellers conventions, and I had met a pastor friend, and
we were just sort of talking. He wanted to to
do a book someday, and we just started talking about
what kind of a book it would be. He was
(06:04):
a business guy himself. And, and we sort of brainstormed
and we came this up with this idea of a
leadership book called The Way the Shepherd. And we did
it together. And, you know, when you do a book
with two people, it's not always easy to synchronize. But
we pulled it off. And to date, I just looked
at the book. I just got a royalty statement last
(06:27):
week from the publisher, and I believe this figure is accurate.
It's at 237,000 copies sold in hardback. And as you know,
in hardback, that's you've sold millions, as have I in
some books. Um, but you just you just don't get
those kind of numbers without it scratching where, where people itch. Yeah.
(06:51):
In fact, I just got a call from a big
church in California where they just ordered 4000 copies of
that way. The Shepherd book, so for their congregation is
a gift, uh, to their members.
S4 (07:03):
But, um.
S1 (07:05):
I, I'm getting away from my point. So, yeah, that's
the big picture book. And, uh, it was a God thing,
I say, because we went to the convention and you
and I know a lot of different publishers, and I
ran into a guy over at Zondervan in the backdrop.
Was that his family? Guess what? They raised sheep.
S4 (07:28):
Hmm.
S1 (07:29):
So I was just sort of shopping this idea around
to publishers. But on first strike, when I met this
gentleman from Zondervan Publishers, he fell in love with the idea.
We rolled with it about nine months later. We had
a book in hand and and it became an immediately
a bestseller. The the irony is, and this is just
(07:52):
for you, Gary, not so much for our listeners, But
in fact, I wrote a note to Zondervan once that said,
you know, I think it'd be a really good idea
to maybe tell people that this book is out there.
So if it sounds like I'm flaunting them publicly, I
don't mean to, but, you know, I've seen it all
(08:12):
in the publishing world. I mean, I wrote a book
once that I thought would be a mega bestseller. It
was the worst one I ever, I ever released, so
who knows? But this is a book that really for
that person, how do I become a leader? This is
sort of a step by step, loaded with tips and
stories from other leaders, uh, as well, about how do
(08:33):
I get from A to B?
S4 (08:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Kevin, we're talking about leadership in your book.
Be a Great Leader by Friday. You know, uh, what
would you say is the most important thing a leader
needs to know?
S1 (08:45):
Well, I think they have to know that it's, uh.
It's all about being personal. Leadership is personal. It's not something.
It's arm's length. In fact, I was talking to a
young CEO the other day, a woman, and I asked her,
I said, hey, tell me, what do you do when
somebody in your group does something outstanding? Well, good. She said, well,
(09:08):
I sent him an email. I said, that is a second,
second dumbest thing one could do. The dumbest thing you
could do is just ignore it. But who wants another email?
And so I talk in, in, uh, be a great
leader by Friday about the power of a personal note.
(09:28):
I have personal notes from people who I love and respect.
I have to tell you, Gary, I haven't thrown any
of those out. I got, you know, Herb Kelleher. In fact,
I interviewed him and got to know him fairly well.
And he was the chairman of the board of Southwest Airlines.
He was the youngest child in his family, by the way,
which proves that great leaders can even come from the
(09:49):
baby position of the family. If you've ever flown on southwest,
you probably had more fun on southwest than any other
airline you've ever flown. They give their flight attendants great
leeway and entertaining people as they give those announcements. It's
just a fun airline. But three years after I had
(10:10):
visited with him extensively, I ran into him by accident
at the Dallas Fort Worth airport. It. Without blinking an eye,
he looked at me and said, Kevin, how are you?
He had a, uh. He was a great leader. But
he said something that's really interesting. He said, you know,
at southwest, uh, we're in the service business. And it's
(10:34):
incidental that we also fly airplanes.
S4 (10:38):
Hmm.
S1 (10:39):
I never forgot that. I thought, yeah, we are in
the service. I mean, we're servants as Christians. We're to
be servants. So this is a book about servant leadership.
And one of the kickers is this that I don't
care where you are in life, how smart you are,
or how many degrees you have, what accolades people have
given you. People don't care what you have to say
(11:03):
until they know you care.
S4 (11:05):
Yeah.
S1 (11:06):
That's just premise number one. So this book is all
about living the Christian life. It's treating people the way
you should treat people. But it is a guide to
success for those who are wavering and not sure how
to proceed.
S4 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah. You know, I hear a lot of people
use the term born leaders. He's a born leader. Is
there truth in that or what would you say to that?
S1 (11:37):
Well, you know, I think there's some truth in it.
You know, some of my background. I don't mean to
be repetitive to people that some people have heard this
too many times, but I was the youngest child in
the family. I graduated fourth in my class in high school. Unfortunately,
it was fourth in the bottom and not fourth from
the top. That was problem number one. My high school
(12:00):
counselor and this is a quote. In fact, I dedicated
my very first book to him. He said, Lehman, with
your grades and your record, I couldn't get you into
reform school. But looking back, looking back, I had a
sister who was perfect. An older sister who ended up
being a children's pastor. Okay. How do you beat that one?
(12:24):
And then I had a brother who was a straight
A student as well. And I've psyched myself out. Shrunk myself.
Years ago, I was the baby of three. I had
two little bluebirds above me who did everything right. And
looking back, I think I made a conscious effort to
be the best at being the worst, because that's how
(12:46):
I got attention. And so when I do TV shows
in New York on those morning shows. My litmus test
is do I get the audio guy and the. The
lighting guy to laugh? Well, I've had some long talks
with God about that because. Drawing attention to you self
is not a good idea. I mean, God hates pride.
(13:09):
And I've I've talked my way around that one. I've
learned to be joyful for other people's success. Uh, and
I think that's really a gift that God gives you
over a period of time. But no, I think looking back, I,
I was sort of a born salesman because I that's
(13:29):
how I got around things. People ask me about all
the things you've done in life. I've gotten, you know,
you get honorary doctorate degrees and accolades from different groups
and stuff. And I say, well, when I think about
what I've done, what really makes me laugh is I
talked my way into Disney World for nine free tickets. It's.
(13:50):
It took me 20 minutes. I planned on ten, but
I did that. You know, your your wife, Caroline. Your wife,
Caroline has a similar personality to me. I hope you
don't regret me saying that.
S4 (14:03):
But.
S1 (14:04):
But she is so much fun. In fact, you might
remember this. I told your wife once. I said, Caroline,
if you and I were married, we would have the
best marriage for a full seven days, one week. Because
we're too much alike, you know. But but I, I,
(14:25):
I talked my way. I still laugh to this day
thinking about how did I do that? And I did
that using some, I think, natural born skills that God
gave me. I used to apologize for using humor at seminars,
and now I tell people, you know, when God gives
you the gift of humor, use humor, but do it
(14:46):
for the right way. I mean, how do you survive
doing The View on ABC as I've done a couple
times without using humor. Those women could care less about me,
but I used humor to keep them at bay.
S4 (14:58):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I think this. Yeah. Well,
in the book you talk about, uh, you know, in
order to motivate people, uh, you have to employ the
three R's. What are the three R's?
S1 (15:13):
And you'll love this one, Gary, because the name of
your program, relationships, relationships, relationships. So if you're interested in
changing behavior of those that are on your staff, the
first thing you have to do is get behind their
eyes and see how they see life. And I point out,
(15:38):
firstborn children, for example. Well, here, I'll put it in
a question form. Do firstborn children buy a brand new
automobile Like us babies of the family. That's the question.
And the answer is no. They don't. Because the firstborn
is going to read Car and Driver magazine. The firstborn
is going to look at the specification page. Uh, us
(16:02):
babies of the family, we could care less about the
specification page. We say such profound things on the car
lot is Shazam. Do you have one with gold trim?
I'll take it. So to to get behind that person's
eyes and to make sure that person is not only
on the right bus, Gary, but the right seat of
(16:24):
the bus, you really have to have to take the
time to know and learn and understand how that person
sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There is a
method to the madness, so to speak, here.
S4 (16:39):
Yeah. I want to go back to your personal life again.
I remember there was a time in which you sold
magazines door to door. Uh, what did you learn from
that job? Well.
S1 (16:51):
They dumped you off in the summertime. Thanks for asking
that question. I was just thrown out of college. I
was 19 years old, I was smoking. Uh, let's see,
what were those called? Uh, Newport cigarettes. Uh, I had
greasy hair. I had my belt on the side, so
to speak. I was a little greaseball. I mean, I
(17:13):
was going nowhere, and this was before I knew Christ
as my Savior and Lord. And they dropped us off
in 105 degree weather and said, meet back on this
corner in five hours. And you you pounded on doors
and you sold magazines. Well, I came back, I had
my orders with me. And back in those days, a
(17:34):
full magazine subscription. This was 1962, I believe. A magazine
subscription was $87.50. And the kicker was to always get
the up front money, which was $2.50 with the order.
So you'd knock on the door and say, I'm doing
market research in your area and you hand them a card, say,
(17:56):
just pick any seven magazines you want, absolutely free. That
was the pitch. Mm. I take the orders back. I
still remember the woman's name. Her name was Joyce Berman.
She was the. And she looked at me and she
looked at my order. She said, what is that? I said,
those are my orders. And I thought, oh, I'm in trouble.
I didn't sell enough magazines. She said, those are your orders.
(18:18):
And I said, yes. She said, come with me, Calvin.
She called me Calvin and she and she took me
into the boss's office and she said, look what Calvin did.
I had 27 orders, which I later found out was
a record for a morning walk in a neighborhood for
this company. And I think it was then that I
(18:41):
figured out, you know, I could sell things. But what
really bothered me, and this is again before I became
a Christian, is I didn't like the way the pitch was.
I felt like we were pulling the eyes, the wool
over the eyes of people, so to speak. Yeah. And so, uh,
even though I successful at that job, I moved along.
(19:03):
But to show you that God still has a plan
for your life, I moved from selling magazines door to
door to getting a job as a janitor, making $195
a month full time. But I've got to hurry because
I know we're short on time. My life changed one
day when this five foot, nine inch beauty walked down
the hallway while I was holding a mop. And, uh,
(19:26):
that same day, I met her in the men's restroom.
Believe it or not, she was helping some little guy
go potty. But she was the one that Jesus used,
that God used in my life to turn my entire
life around. Because she popped the question three months into
dating and she said, would you like to go to
church with me and my real honest thoughts were, oh no,
(19:49):
she's one of them. If there's one thing I didn't
want to be was a Christian. And then she asked
me to go back at night. Why would you go
back at night? I already went in the morning. Didn't
I do it right? But that night, I'll tell you. Uh,
I remember the beads of sweat on my forehead. Gary.
I walked out that church, a new man. I accepted Christ.
(20:09):
I didn't know who Jesus was, quite frankly, at that point.
I didn't know where he was going to take me.
But I said, okay, I'm going to trust you. He
gave me instant motivation, went back to school full time,
got on the Dean's list my first semester and never
looked back.
S4 (20:25):
Wow. Wow. Well, it's powerful. You know, it's amazing how
God knows how to get to us. So, uh, in
the book, you have what you call Lehman isms. Let
me quote one of them. Know yourself first before you
stick your nose in others business. That sounds like you, Kevin. Yeah.
S1 (20:48):
It does.
S4 (20:50):
Well, what do you need to start? What do you
need to start with? Self knowledge?
S1 (20:55):
Well, because I think most of us are too interested
in self. And you have to look in that mirror
I mentioned earlier. I think one of the blessings in
life is to be happy, truly happy for other people's success.
The carnal part of us says, oh, I wish I
was like that person or that person. I would tell anybody,
don't emulate other people. You want to emulate somebody, emulate Jesus.
S4 (21:19):
Mm.
S1 (21:19):
Okay.
S4 (21:20):
Yeah.
S1 (21:20):
Don't praise people. People aren't worthy of your praise. You
want to praise somebody? Praise God in life.
S4 (21:26):
Mm.
S1 (21:27):
Yeah. There's a lot of isms. Uh, healthy relationships start
with a three Rs, which is relationships. Relationships, relationships? Yeah. Yeah.
How about this? An unhappy person is a healthy person.
Now that one gets people's attention.
S4 (21:42):
What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah, I'm asking that.
S1 (21:45):
Sometimes your unhappiness is deserved. I say in the book,
have a new kid by Friday. An unhappy child is
a healthy child. Why? Because that little sucker deserves to
be unhappy. Why? Because he dissed you. He disobeyed you.
He lied. His hit his sister. I mean, I can
go on and on and on. So our goal in
life is not to create happy, happy, happy children, okay?
(22:09):
Our goal as leaders isn't to create happy, happy, happy workers.
Our goal is to create responsible workers who care about
other people. But it starts with the look in the mirror.
That's a good starting point.
S4 (22:24):
Yeah, well, you talk about birth order in this book
as well, which, uh, I would expect coming from you, but, uh,
how does that knowledge of birth order help a leader
understand coworkers as well as their family members?
S1 (22:40):
Well, I'm a youngest child in the family. I've had, uh,
17 book editors in my life. And editors come from
the publishing company, as you know. And, uh, 16 of them, Gary,
have been firstborn or only born children. The other one
was a flat out liar. Uh. And, you know, here's
(23:04):
the kicker. And this goes back to one of the
Lehman isms. The strengths you have as a leader many
times become your weakness. You can spot a flaw at
50 paces. We talk at our Lehman schools about vitamin E,
which comes right out of Saint Paul's mouth. Encourage one another.
(23:25):
We want to give a lot of vitamin E encouragement
to those around us. But I pointed out that all
my editors have been firstborn or only born children. My
personal assistant, Debbie Backus, is a firstborn. She's been with
me for 35 years, played piano in her church, a
great lady, but as a baby of the family, I
(23:47):
am not a detailed person. I have to admit that
I fly by the seat of my pants a lot
in life. I pray for guidance, but I do a
lot of flying and sometimes I get in trouble. But
if you know your weaknesses and my weakness is detail
and organization. I mean, I'm the founder of eight charter schools.
(24:11):
How do you function as the chairman of the board,
for example, without being detailed? Well, you have some help.
I have a personal assistant that does a lot of
organization for me. And so building a team, when you
think about your team, whether you're a small business owner
or whatever, you don't want a bunch of people who
(24:33):
all think the same or all have the same birth order. Uh,
I just got hired to speak to the Western orthopedic
Surgeons Association meeting out in Hawaii this summer, and I've
spoke to them before, and I can tell you what
my opening line is right now to the orthopedic surgeons.
Why would you hire me to speak to you guys?
(24:54):
Because I can't tell you guys anything. No one can.
And they laugh at themselves. They know who they are.
But you, you want your anesthesiologist. You want your orthopedic
surgeon to be a perfectionist. But I point out in
this book, the perfectionism is slow suicide. The perfect one
(25:15):
is Jesus. So stop chasing the perfect thing and pursue
excellence in your life. You said something really profound at
the beginning of this interview. You said the leader solicits
the advice of other people. Yeah. And if you're going
to be a good leader today, there's a must.
S2 (25:39):
This is the podcast Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman,
author of the New York Times best seller The Five
Love Languages. We're talking with Doctor Kevin Lehman today about
his book, Be a Great Leader by Friday. Five Winning
plays to spark your world changing potential. Go to building
relationships to find out more. Plus, find more ways to
(25:59):
strengthen your relationships right there. Go to Building relationships.
S4 (26:07):
Well, Kevin, the name of the book is Be a
Great Leader by Friday. Do you believe that's really possible?
S1 (26:13):
Well, it could be Wednesday if you're decisive enough. I think,
you know, one of the things about being a leader
is you have to be visible. You know, I don't
I don't want to get political. But the last election
was a very interesting one. And the leader of the
(26:34):
ticket didn't do a very good job of being what?
visible you have to be visible. To be a good leader.
You have to have confidence to be a good leader.
And people follow leaders who are decisive and are specific
(26:56):
and obviously have thought out plans and strategies that work.
So I think any leader would tell you, I speak
to the Young Presidents organization. I've been their resource for
many years in many situations. I've been to one of
their universities down in Mexico City, where you're met with
a police escort, Gary, at the airport, and they take
(27:18):
you to the hotel, probably because they don't want you shot.
I don't know why they do that, but, you know,
at Ypo, these guys, they call them young because to
be in Ypo young Presidents organization, you have to be
under 50 years of age to be in it. Once
you become a 40 niner, you sort of graduate into
(27:40):
another group. But all these guys, for the most part,
are multi-millionaires. They're movers and shakers. They warned me when
I first spoke to Ypo. They said, listen, these guys
are so driven to get every bit of information from
every speaker. Don't be offended if people leave your session
(28:01):
when you're speaking. Well, me is the baby of the family.
I took that as a challenge and I said to myself,
I'm going to just see if anybody leaves my session.
And you get like two, 300 people probably in each session,
maybe more. And I can tell you, no one left.
(28:21):
No one left. And the most common. Feedback I got
from people was I loved your down to earth, honest,
real life examples. I love the way you talked Act.
I could listen to you forever. Well, I think again,
(28:42):
as a leader, you have to adjust the people's levels
depending upon who you're talking to, and you have to
identify with them. And that's why you hang out with them,
you know? In the old days, the shepherd was he
was literally the gate. The sheep might be in a pen,
but he actually laid down so that he knew if
(29:03):
a sheep was, you know, trying to get out at night.
He was the protector and the good shepherd. We see
that in the Bible. You know, he went way out
of his way to help that one. I mean, that
real shepherd. Again, back to the word authentic. He's got
to be real. He's got to love his people. But
(29:24):
the good shepherd, he also had this thing called a
rod with him. And the rod, by the way, wasn't
used to beat the sheep over the head. Okay. I
would take issue with anybody on that. But there's times
when Gary Chapman, the shepherd, would say, okay, sheep, come on,
let's move along. And, Gary, you might have one little
sheep who looks at you defiantly, sort of like a
(29:46):
four year old would do a mom or dad. And,
you know, sort of dig their hoofs in and say, no,
I'm not moving. Well, the good shepherd, Gary Chapman, would
go over with his rod. And what would he do?
He'd give him a little poke in the tail, move
him along. He would use the rod to guide the sheep.
(30:06):
And so when we think about leadership, we're not talking
about biting people's heads off, humiliating them, calling them, calling
them out in front of other people, we're going to
use our heads. And so the rod of correction, you know,
that's the time when you take that employee behind the
closed doors. You speak the truth in love and you
(30:27):
essentially say, you know, I want you to know I
believe in you. I think you can do this, but
I think we need to do some things different here.
If you need some help, I need to know what
specifically you need help with. And we'll get some people
to help you, because I want to see you succeed
in this job at this organization. That guy can not
walk away thinking, or that woman can't walk away thinking, boy,
(30:48):
they don't care about me because they do. They're just
trying to help.
S4 (30:51):
Yeah. That's great. You say in the book that there's
two people that you would never put in the same
room together without supervision. Who are those two people?
S1 (31:01):
Well, the two most likely candidates would be the two
first born children. Or the two only children, because you
got two people who know exactly how life ought to be.
I mean, I can tell you that I've lived with
this woman that I've been married to for 57 years
in a row. I want to emphasize in a row, uh,
(31:22):
we're driving last night. And, uh, uh, all I did
was turn left. Now, Gary, that's a very simple thing.
Just turn left. Do you think she could let that
one go. Oh, no. No. Uh, honey, you know what? Um,
she's got a better idea. She's the firstborn. Okay. You
(31:43):
put two firstborns, she says all you got to do
is go down here and hit the street, and you
buy on the interstate in a second. Well, that's how
firstborns are. They can spot a flaw at 50 paces.
They tend to know everything. Okay. They've been the centerpiece
of their families since day one. So, yeah. Two firstborns. Uh,
(32:05):
or how about two babies? They've been in that same
room for an hour, and one of them says, hey,
I forgot what was the assignment they gave us to do?
S4 (32:15):
Yeah.
S1 (32:16):
Because they were talking about everything, but. So, yeah, it
gets back to, hey, if you're a leader, make sure
your team has a good reputation. And I'm not here
to tell you that birth order is the next best
thing to to slice bread. But I'm telling you that.
Isn't it amazing that if you look at any family,
the 3 or 4 little cubs that come out of
(32:37):
that family, guess what? They're all different. And that speaks
to the genius of God, who made all of us different.
I always point out to people who are interested in
birth order are identical twins. When I found this out, Gary,
I cried and laughed at the same time. Identical twins
(32:58):
who have the same DNA have different fingerprints. Why did
God do that? To help the FBI. Or was this
God's way of saying, you are my son, you are
my daughter. You are different than everyone else. So I
would just say to any leader, get behind the eyes
of these people you work with. Figure out what strengths
each person has and make sure you have diversity in
(33:21):
the strengths in the teams that you built on that
corporation or business called the bus.
S4 (33:28):
Yeah, I think our leaders who, who, who are in
positions and thinking about leadership or really taking notes on this,
I hope so. And then I hope you're going to
get the book, because this book, these practical things we're
talking about are spelled out in the book. And you
mentioned that there's two vitamins that leaders need. Uh, one,
(33:49):
you've already mentioned E, vitamin E encourage, but then you
said vitamin N, what is that for?
S1 (33:57):
Well, vitamin N and again, what I love about this,
you could look at parenthood. Yeah. We all need vitamin E,
but kids need vitamin N, and so do workers. So
do managers. Uh, as a leader, you have to be
the decision maker. I mean, there's other vitamins from accountability
(34:18):
to I like vitamin L, which is laughter. And, you know,
I mean, there's all kinds of vitamins that go into
building a business, but vitamin E, I love the encouragement,
but I love vitamin N, because you'll see there's three
basic types of leaders in life, Gary. There's the authoritarians
who see themselves as the boss, who just tell people
(34:41):
what to do. Then there's the permissive who are driven
on the premise that everybody has to like me. Well,
good luck with that. And then there's the authoritative leader,
and that's what I would like to see in action
across our country today is leaders who are authoritative. Those
(35:02):
are leaders who's who's no is no and who's yes
is yes. There are people who aren't afraid to make decisions.
They're not overly impressed with trying to make everybody happy
with the decisions that they're coming up with. But in
the process, they're soliciting the input of people that work
(35:25):
with that leader. That's what's really important. In fact, that
was one of the things I think you mentioned at
the beginning of this interview that the smart leader solicits opinions,
welcomes feedback from those around him. You got to be
pretty secure. You want people around you not who are
just a bunch of yes people. You want people who
are going to sometimes challenge what you're thinking about. It
(35:49):
helps refine the the metal, so to speak, by putting
the thing to the fire. So, uh, there's a lot
to being a leader. But, you know, people have said
to me over the years enough that I feel free
and sharing this without trying to sound pompous, but people
say I never get lost with big words in your books.
(36:11):
You keep things simple down to earth. And I think
successful people and people that I've really admired in life,
people that I've rubbed shoulders with over the years, I
think what attracts me to some of them, uh, most
of them, I should say, is they're down to earth nature.
(36:32):
I've done all those secular shows on TV. You know,
I really I've done. There's hardly one of them I
ever missed. But I think of Regis Philbin, who is now.
Left this earth. He was the most down to earth
guy I'd ever met. And interestingly enough, the governor of Oklahoma,
Frank Keating, invited me and a fellow by the name
(36:55):
of Bill Cosby. And I spent the day with Cosby,
and he was so down to earth and nice to people.
And when the tragic news came out about his. His life,
I was devastated. I thought, how could that be? He
took time to talk to people that, quite frankly, he
(37:16):
didn't have to talk to. I've met a lot of
I won't name names on people. Big time celebrities. You'd
know every one of them I'd name, but I didn't
even like being around them. Tell you the truth, I
just sort of avoided them, so I think if you
come in, don't be impressed with yourself. Okay. I don't
if if God's given you success in life, then thank
(37:39):
God for your success. Okay. It's real simple. Yeah. Don't
think you did it. Because, God, if you're a believer and.
And you said, God, take charge of my life. Trust
him in all things. Then give God the glory. Don't.
Don't sit there and try to make yourself into something
(37:59):
that you're not. I've always used self-depreciating humor, which sort
of helps me travel that gauntlet in life. I've done that,
I think, fairly well for a baby of the family anyway.
S4 (38:10):
I would agree with that. Yeah. Kevin, as you know,
I have worked on a church staff all these years
and all my counseling and everything has been done in
that context. Uh, what mistakes from your perspective do leaders
in the church often make?
S1 (38:29):
Well, let's start with, uh, the pastor. Okay. I'm so
glad you asked that question, because just this week, I had, uh,
breakfast with my pastor. I go to a large non-denominational
church here in Tucson, and our pastor is a terrific speaker. And, uh,
(38:50):
I reminded him in our conversation because he had just
taken off with his wife. They had some R&R for
a week before the Christmas season. This goes back several
months now, but, um, I just applauded his efforts that
to get away once in a while with your wife
and to prioritize. And I always get people's attention with this,
(39:13):
but they pastors don't put the church first, okay? Put
your wife first. Your kids need to be like, Avis,
rent a car number two. And trying harder in some way.
Some people are saying, well, wait a minute, hold on
a minute. Where's God in all this? Well, God's and
everything that's a given. But in terms of people, you know. Oh, honey,
(39:35):
I'd love to help you, but you know that there's
a board meeting down there, and you know how Harry
gets some nights I better go down there and make
sure that things run smoothly. I think pastors run the
risk of feeling like they're indispensable. And they have to be.
They have to have hands in everything in the church,
(39:55):
which they don't. I think pastors, many of them, make
the mistake of making their wife feel like she has
to be thoroughly involved in the church. I'll get people's
attention with this one. I don't think a pastor's wife
has to be involved in anything in the church. Anything
if she doesn't choose to.
S4 (40:17):
Yeah.
S1 (40:18):
Other than the worship and be a good helpmate to
her husband. I know that's blasphemy in some circles, but
I've seen it. I've seen so many pastors fall. You can't,
you know, read a newspaper. That's how old I am.
I still read newspapers or or go on your computer
and get Yahoo news and and you know, you can't
(40:41):
go a month without finding where some Christian leader has failed. Hey,
we're all we're full of failure. Yeah, we're redeemed through
the blood of Jesus. And and, you know, I'm just saying,
if you're real, uh, then prioritize. Be the model to
your people in life. And I'm not talking about being perfect.
I think one of the great things I love about
(41:04):
my pastor is he's vulnerable. He shares from the pulpit
sometimes things he struggles with. That's a source of encouragement
to me, not discouragement. Yeah. So I would say to everybody, uh,
this is February. We got Valentine's Day in this month. Uh,
some people call it the Love month. That was the
last time you took the time to write a note
(41:26):
to your pastor or to your kid's Sunday school teacher
and say, hey, I appreciate it. Or if you still
have a choir in your church or a praise band
or whatever, taking the time to thank people for the
hours that they put into preparing for that Sunday morning worship. Yeah,
I mean, stop stop thinking about yourself, right? That powerful, uh,
(41:50):
note packed with vitamin E, which is encouragement, just thanking
people for the contribution that they give back to this
body of believers called the church. Yeah, stuff like that.
S4 (42:02):
So important, so important. You mentioned the whole issue that
none of us are perfect, that we all make mistakes,
and leaders are people and they make mistakes. How important
is it that we learn from our mistakes?
S1 (42:17):
Well, it's if you want to really be a lifelong leader,
which I hope everybody wants to be as a leader.
It starts with realizing that, well, I'll go to a
scripture of King Solomon. I think the very last verse
is in Proverbs three. And he will direct your paths.
(42:37):
I wrote a book on that called The Way of
the wise. By the way, I leave. You'll love this one,
Pastor Gary Chapman I Lehman ized the scripture, which I'll
probably pay for it someday. But. But I love that
little scripture. And he he gives six little verses there.
And I took ten major themes from those six verses.
(43:01):
But I love the fact it says, and he will
direct your paths. And I want to remind people in life,
God doesn't give you just one path. Gary, when you
started out ministry, did you think you were going to
be a New York Times best selling author?
S4 (43:19):
Never crossed my mind.
S1 (43:22):
Never crossed my mind either. I said that, Gary, he's
never going to do anything in life. No, I said
I said that about myself, but you know. So my
wife Sandy, always says we make plans and God laughs.
So as you as you go through life, realize that
you have different paths in life and you learn as
(43:43):
you go. And there's times you look back and you say,
you know, last week at that meeting, I sort of
ran over Fred's feelings, you know, to a leader, I
would say, get on the honker, get on the phone,
call Fred and Fred. Fred, I've been talking, thinking about
you this week, and I've been thinking about what I
(44:04):
said to you at that meeting. And I have to
tell you that I. I'm really ashamed of myself. Would
probably be the best word. I think I mistakenly just
ran over your feelings, and I'm just profusely sorry that
I did that. Now I'm just telling you that that
will solidify the relationship with that guy forever. In fact,
(44:28):
research says this when you buy a product or obtain
a service and you rant and you rave and you
write a nasty note or whatever, and that person comes
back and apologizes to you for the poor service, puts
it in writing, says hey, comes back and give. You'll
take 22 different actions in one week to tell people
(44:51):
about this wonderful business that you were going to file
a complaint with the Better Business Bureau about. Why? Because
they apologize. They made things right. So as a leader,
be the first to say, I'm sorry I was wrong.
Would you forgive me? Those are people that will attract attention.
(45:13):
Those are people who will be leaders that people will
want to follow. Yeah. In fact, let me give you
a quick a quick little out of raising kids. They
always say, don't try this at home. I'm saying to
every young parent listening, you got a kid between 3
and 4. Try this at home. Say to a 3
or 4 year old with your arms outstretched. Come here.
Nine out of ten times the kid will go south.
(45:37):
If you want the kid to come toward you, extend
your arms toward the kid. Say the same words. Come here,
but walk backwards slowly. And that little guy will come
to you.
S4 (45:49):
Mm.
S1 (45:50):
It's a word picture, but it works. And that's how
you have to be with people. You don't carry a
big stick.
S4 (45:56):
Yeah. Well, Kevin, this hour has gone quickly. And I
want to thank you again for being with us today.
And thank you for writing this book. I think this
is going to help a lot of folks because many,
many people are in leadership roles. In fact, as we
said earlier, all of us are leading somebody. So thanks
for being with us today, and may God continue to
(46:18):
give you wisdom in all that you're doing and all
that he still has planned for you and your life.
S1 (46:23):
Thank you. Gary. You know I love you. You take
care of yourself. I'm happy you got this program. It's
very relevant. And it's all about relationships. And, man, we
need help in that one.
S4 (46:33):
Yep. You're right.
S3 (46:35):
Doctor Kevin Lehman has been our guest. And you can
see our featured resource at Building Relationships. Be a great
leader by Friday. Five winning plays to spark your world
changing potential. Just go to building relationships and next week,
more summer best of conversations. We'll talk about how to
love and like your spouse for a lifetime.
S2 (46:58):
Arlene Pelican joins us in one week. Before we go,
let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice.
Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production
of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry
of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
To get behind that person's eyes and to make sure
that person is not only on the right bus, but
the right seat of the bus. You really have to
take the time to know and learn and understand how
that person sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There
is a method to the madness, so to speak, here.
S2 (00:23):
Welcome to Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
internationally known psychologist, radio and TV personality, educator and author
Doctor Kevin Leman joins us. If you're in any kind
of leadership position and you want to improve your skills,
today's program is for you.
S3 (00:43):
Doctor Leman has written more than 70 books that have
helped people of all ages. You may know him from
his work on birth order and on this summer Best
of Broadcast. We're going to talk about Be a Great
Leader by Friday. Five winning plays to spark your world
changing potential. It's our featured resource at Building Relationships. Gary,
(01:05):
you've known a lot of leaders through the years. What
do you see as one of the top characteristics of
a good one?
S4 (01:11):
You know, Chris, I think I would say be authentic.
Tell the truth. Don't tell one person one thing and
another person another thing. Uh, and I would also say,
not only that, but be open to input from the
people on your team, whatever your leadership role. Uh, don't
(01:32):
be limited to your own wisdom. Uh, ask for ideas
on how we can make things better and be open
to considering those ideas. Uh, those are a couple of
thoughts that come to my mind. But I am really
excited about our program today because Doctor Kevin Leman, I've
known him for a long, long time, and I think
this is going to help a lot of folks. And listen,
everybody's a leader in some area. Okay.
S3 (01:53):
Exactly. Yes.
S4 (01:54):
If you're only leading your dog, you're still a leader. Okay.
So I hope our listeners will stay tuned to us
and we're going to learn some good things.
S3 (02:04):
Well, Doctor Kevin Leman is The New York Times best
selling author of more than 70 books, including the birth
order book Have a New Kid by Friday. Making Children Mind,
Without Losing Yours, and many others. He's made thousands of
house calls through radio and TV programs. A practicing psychologist
for 40 plus years, Doctor Lima has helped millions understand
(02:25):
the dynamics of healthy relationships. He and his wife, Sandy,
live in Arizona. They have five children, four grandchildren. His book,
Be a Great Leader by Friday as our featured resource,
just go to Building Relationships.
S4 (02:39):
Well, Doctor Leman, welcome to Building Relationships.
S1 (02:43):
Well, you know what? We go back a long time.
I was just thinking. I think your son was 14
years old when I had dinner in your home years ago.
So just how many years ago was that?
S4 (02:56):
Well, he's 50. He's 54 now.
S1 (03:00):
40 years do go way back. But you know, I'm
so glad when they when they asked you about, you know,
marks of a leader, you started with authenticity. And maybe I'll,
I'll tag along on that because leave it to a
bunch of experimental psychologists. Check this one out. They found
(03:21):
a shepherd with a large flock of sheep, and they
thought they would try an experiment. They took the shepherd
out of the flock. They found someone of his approximate stature.
The impostor actually wore the same clothing that the shepherd
(03:43):
had on. They digitized his call. And today, with electronics,
you can nail a, uh, sound perfectly. And they bellowed
it across the meadow, and all the sheep did something interesting.
They turned around and they looked, but they didn't follow
(04:06):
the imposter shepherd. Isn't that interesting? We think that sheep
are stupid. I'm here to tell you. I think sheep
are pretty smart. But if you're going to be a leader.
And by the way, if you have to tell people
that you're a leader, you're not. The point is that
for a leader to be effective, there has to be
(04:27):
that authenticity. And without that, you're going to fail. So
this book that I've done, um, uh, be a great
leader by Friday, and I admit, I got hung up
on Friday on several of my books, but it's it's
really it's really the sequel to The Way of the Shepherd,
which has been a mega bestseller. It's still in hardback
(04:49):
for 20 years. Anybody who knows the book industry knows
that after one year in hardback, it gets dropped into paper.
So the way the shepherd is sort of the big
picture of leadership, this is sort of for the person
who is struggling, uh, from the wannabe, a leader to
the CEO to the CFO. It could probably be titled
(05:12):
How to Succeed in Life, because I think the basic
truths that are in this leadership book help you in
every aspect of your life, whether it's your marriage or
your parenthood, or in your work as a as a
manager or a business person.
S4 (05:27):
Yeah. Well, yeah. You've written a lot, of course, birth order.
All of us are familiar with that. And but also relationships, marriage, parenting,
all those things. Uh, but I don't I don't know
that you've written a book on leadership before. So what
what motivated you to write a book on leadership?
S1 (05:43):
Well, Gary, it was a God thing, as you as
you recall, we used to have these, uh, big Christian
booksellers conventions, and I had met a pastor friend, and
we were just sort of talking. He wanted to to
do a book someday, and we just started talking about
what kind of a book it would be. He was
(06:04):
a business guy himself. And, and we sort of brainstormed
and we came this up with this idea of a
leadership book called The Way the Shepherd. And we did
it together. And, you know, when you do a book
with two people, it's not always easy to synchronize. But
we pulled it off. And to date, I just looked
at the book. I just got a royalty statement last
(06:27):
week from the publisher, and I believe this figure is accurate.
It's at 237,000 copies sold in hardback. And as you know,
in hardback, that's you've sold millions, as have I in
some books. Um, but you just you just don't get
those kind of numbers without it scratching where, where people itch. Yeah.
(06:51):
In fact, I just got a call from a big
church in California where they just ordered 4000 copies of
that way. The Shepherd book, so for their congregation is
a gift, uh, to their members.
S4 (07:03):
But, um.
S1 (07:05):
I, I'm getting away from my point. So, yeah, that's
the big picture book. And, uh, it was a God thing,
I say, because we went to the convention and you
and I know a lot of different publishers, and I
ran into a guy over at Zondervan in the backdrop.
Was that his family? Guess what? They raised sheep.
S4 (07:28):
Hmm.
S1 (07:29):
So I was just sort of shopping this idea around
to publishers. But on first strike, when I met this
gentleman from Zondervan Publishers, he fell in love with the idea.
We rolled with it about nine months later. We had
a book in hand and and it became an immediately
a bestseller. The the irony is, and this is just
(07:52):
for you, Gary, not so much for our listeners, But
in fact, I wrote a note to Zondervan once that said,
you know, I think it'd be a really good idea
to maybe tell people that this book is out there.
So if it sounds like I'm flaunting them publicly, I
don't mean to, but, you know, I've seen it all
(08:12):
in the publishing world. I mean, I wrote a book
once that I thought would be a mega bestseller. It
was the worst one I ever, I ever released, so
who knows? But this is a book that really for
that person, how do I become a leader? This is
sort of a step by step, loaded with tips and
stories from other leaders, uh, as well, about how do
(08:33):
I get from A to B?
S4 (08:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Kevin, we're talking about leadership in your book.
Be a Great Leader by Friday. You know, uh, what
would you say is the most important thing a leader
needs to know?
S1 (08:45):
Well, I think they have to know that it's, uh.
It's all about being personal. Leadership is personal. It's not something.
It's arm's length. In fact, I was talking to a
young CEO the other day, a woman, and I asked her,
I said, hey, tell me, what do you do when
somebody in your group does something outstanding? Well, good. She said, well,
(09:08):
I sent him an email. I said, that is a second,
second dumbest thing one could do. The dumbest thing you
could do is just ignore it. But who wants another email?
And so I talk in, in, uh, be a great
leader by Friday about the power of a personal note.
(09:28):
I have personal notes from people who I love and respect.
I have to tell you, Gary, I haven't thrown any
of those out. I got, you know, Herb Kelleher. In fact,
I interviewed him and got to know him fairly well.
And he was the chairman of the board of Southwest Airlines.
He was the youngest child in his family, by the way,
which proves that great leaders can even come from the
(09:49):
baby position of the family. If you've ever flown on southwest,
you probably had more fun on southwest than any other
airline you've ever flown. They give their flight attendants great
leeway and entertaining people as they give those announcements. It's
just a fun airline. But three years after I had
(10:10):
visited with him extensively, I ran into him by accident
at the Dallas Fort Worth airport. It. Without blinking an eye,
he looked at me and said, Kevin, how are you?
He had a, uh. He was a great leader. But
he said something that's really interesting. He said, you know,
at southwest, uh, we're in the service business. And it's
(10:34):
incidental that we also fly airplanes.
S4 (10:38):
Hmm.
S1 (10:39):
I never forgot that. I thought, yeah, we are in
the service. I mean, we're servants as Christians. We're to
be servants. So this is a book about servant leadership.
And one of the kickers is this that I don't
care where you are in life, how smart you are,
or how many degrees you have, what accolades people have
given you. People don't care what you have to say
(11:03):
until they know you care.
S4 (11:05):
Yeah.
S1 (11:06):
That's just premise number one. So this book is all
about living the Christian life. It's treating people the way
you should treat people. But it is a guide to
success for those who are wavering and not sure how
to proceed.
S4 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah. You know, I hear a lot of people
use the term born leaders. He's a born leader. Is
there truth in that or what would you say to that?
S1 (11:37):
Well, you know, I think there's some truth in it.
You know, some of my background. I don't mean to
be repetitive to people that some people have heard this
too many times, but I was the youngest child in
the family. I graduated fourth in my class in high school. Unfortunately,
it was fourth in the bottom and not fourth from
the top. That was problem number one. My high school
(12:00):
counselor and this is a quote. In fact, I dedicated
my very first book to him. He said, Lehman, with
your grades and your record, I couldn't get you into
reform school. But looking back, looking back, I had a
sister who was perfect. An older sister who ended up
being a children's pastor. Okay. How do you beat that one?
(12:24):
And then I had a brother who was a straight
A student as well. And I've psyched myself out. Shrunk myself.
Years ago, I was the baby of three. I had
two little bluebirds above me who did everything right. And
looking back, I think I made a conscious effort to
be the best at being the worst, because that's how
(12:46):
I got attention. And so when I do TV shows
in New York on those morning shows. My litmus test
is do I get the audio guy and the. The
lighting guy to laugh? Well, I've had some long talks
with God about that because. Drawing attention to you self
is not a good idea. I mean, God hates pride.
(13:09):
And I've I've talked my way around that one. I've
learned to be joyful for other people's success. Uh, and
I think that's really a gift that God gives you
over a period of time. But no, I think looking back, I,
I was sort of a born salesman because I that's
(13:29):
how I got around things. People ask me about all
the things you've done in life. I've gotten, you know,
you get honorary doctorate degrees and accolades from different groups
and stuff. And I say, well, when I think about
what I've done, what really makes me laugh is I
talked my way into Disney World for nine free tickets. It's.
(13:50):
It took me 20 minutes. I planned on ten, but
I did that. You know, your your wife, Caroline. Your wife,
Caroline has a similar personality to me. I hope you
don't regret me saying that.
S4 (14:03):
But.
S1 (14:04):
But she is so much fun. In fact, you might
remember this. I told your wife once. I said, Caroline,
if you and I were married, we would have the
best marriage for a full seven days, one week. Because
we're too much alike, you know. But but I, I,
(14:25):
I talked my way. I still laugh to this day
thinking about how did I do that? And I did
that using some, I think, natural born skills that God
gave me. I used to apologize for using humor at seminars,
and now I tell people, you know, when God gives
you the gift of humor, use humor, but do it
(14:46):
for the right way. I mean, how do you survive
doing The View on ABC as I've done a couple
times without using humor. Those women could care less about me,
but I used humor to keep them at bay.
S4 (14:58):
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I think this. Yeah. Well,
in the book you talk about, uh, you know, in
order to motivate people, uh, you have to employ the
three R's. What are the three R's?
S1 (15:13):
And you'll love this one, Gary, because the name of
your program, relationships, relationships, relationships. So if you're interested in
changing behavior of those that are on your staff, the
first thing you have to do is get behind their
eyes and see how they see life. And I point out,
(15:38):
firstborn children, for example. Well, here, I'll put it in
a question form. Do firstborn children buy a brand new
automobile Like us babies of the family. That's the question.
And the answer is no. They don't. Because the firstborn
is going to read Car and Driver magazine. The firstborn
is going to look at the specification page. Uh, us
(16:02):
babies of the family, we could care less about the
specification page. We say such profound things on the car
lot is Shazam. Do you have one with gold trim?
I'll take it. So to to get behind that person's
eyes and to make sure that person is not only
on the right bus, Gary, but the right seat of
(16:24):
the bus, you really have to have to take the
time to know and learn and understand how that person
sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There is a
method to the madness, so to speak, here.
S4 (16:39):
Yeah. I want to go back to your personal life again.
I remember there was a time in which you sold
magazines door to door. Uh, what did you learn from
that job? Well.
S1 (16:51):
They dumped you off in the summertime. Thanks for asking
that question. I was just thrown out of college. I
was 19 years old, I was smoking. Uh, let's see,
what were those called? Uh, Newport cigarettes. Uh, I had
greasy hair. I had my belt on the side, so
to speak. I was a little greaseball. I mean, I
(17:13):
was going nowhere, and this was before I knew Christ
as my Savior and Lord. And they dropped us off
in 105 degree weather and said, meet back on this
corner in five hours. And you you pounded on doors
and you sold magazines. Well, I came back, I had
my orders with me. And back in those days, a
(17:34):
full magazine subscription. This was 1962, I believe. A magazine
subscription was $87.50. And the kicker was to always get
the up front money, which was $2.50 with the order.
So you'd knock on the door and say, I'm doing
market research in your area and you hand them a card, say,
(17:56):
just pick any seven magazines you want, absolutely free. That
was the pitch. Mm. I take the orders back. I
still remember the woman's name. Her name was Joyce Berman.
She was the. And she looked at me and she
looked at my order. She said, what is that? I said,
those are my orders. And I thought, oh, I'm in trouble.
I didn't sell enough magazines. She said, those are your orders.
(18:18):
And I said, yes. She said, come with me, Calvin.
She called me Calvin and she and she took me
into the boss's office and she said, look what Calvin did.
I had 27 orders, which I later found out was
a record for a morning walk in a neighborhood for
this company. And I think it was then that I
(18:41):
figured out, you know, I could sell things. But what
really bothered me, and this is again before I became
a Christian, is I didn't like the way the pitch was.
I felt like we were pulling the eyes, the wool
over the eyes of people, so to speak. Yeah. And so, uh,
even though I successful at that job, I moved along.
(19:03):
But to show you that God still has a plan
for your life, I moved from selling magazines door to
door to getting a job as a janitor, making $195
a month full time. But I've got to hurry because
I know we're short on time. My life changed one
day when this five foot, nine inch beauty walked down
the hallway while I was holding a mop. And, uh,
(19:26):
that same day, I met her in the men's restroom.
Believe it or not, she was helping some little guy
go potty. But she was the one that Jesus used,
that God used in my life to turn my entire
life around. Because she popped the question three months into
dating and she said, would you like to go to
church with me and my real honest thoughts were, oh no,
(19:49):
she's one of them. If there's one thing I didn't
want to be was a Christian. And then she asked
me to go back at night. Why would you go
back at night? I already went in the morning. Didn't
I do it right? But that night, I'll tell you. Uh,
I remember the beads of sweat on my forehead. Gary.
I walked out that church, a new man. I accepted Christ.
(20:09):
I didn't know who Jesus was, quite frankly, at that point.
I didn't know where he was going to take me.
But I said, okay, I'm going to trust you. He
gave me instant motivation, went back to school full time,
got on the Dean's list my first semester and never
looked back.
S4 (20:25):
Wow. Wow. Well, it's powerful. You know, it's amazing how
God knows how to get to us. So, uh, in
the book, you have what you call Lehman isms. Let
me quote one of them. Know yourself first before you
stick your nose in others business. That sounds like you, Kevin. Yeah.
S1 (20:48):
It does.
S4 (20:50):
Well, what do you need to start? What do you
need to start with? Self knowledge?
S1 (20:55):
Well, because I think most of us are too interested
in self. And you have to look in that mirror
I mentioned earlier. I think one of the blessings in
life is to be happy, truly happy for other people's success.
The carnal part of us says, oh, I wish I
was like that person or that person. I would tell anybody,
don't emulate other people. You want to emulate somebody, emulate Jesus.
S4 (21:19):
Mm.
S1 (21:19):
Okay.
S4 (21:20):
Yeah.
S1 (21:20):
Don't praise people. People aren't worthy of your praise. You
want to praise somebody? Praise God in life.
S4 (21:26):
Mm.
S1 (21:27):
Yeah. There's a lot of isms. Uh, healthy relationships start
with a three Rs, which is relationships. Relationships, relationships? Yeah. Yeah.
How about this? An unhappy person is a healthy person.
Now that one gets people's attention.
S4 (21:42):
What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah, I'm asking that.
S1 (21:45):
Sometimes your unhappiness is deserved. I say in the book,
have a new kid by Friday. An unhappy child is
a healthy child. Why? Because that little sucker deserves to
be unhappy. Why? Because he dissed you. He disobeyed you.
He lied. His hit his sister. I mean, I can
go on and on and on. So our goal in
life is not to create happy, happy, happy children, okay?
(22:09):
Our goal as leaders isn't to create happy, happy, happy workers.
Our goal is to create responsible workers who care about
other people. But it starts with the look in the mirror.
That's a good starting point.
S4 (22:24):
Yeah, well, you talk about birth order in this book
as well, which, uh, I would expect coming from you, but, uh,
how does that knowledge of birth order help a leader
understand coworkers as well as their family members?
S1 (22:40):
Well, I'm a youngest child in the family. I've had, uh,
17 book editors in my life. And editors come from
the publishing company, as you know. And, uh, 16 of them, Gary,
have been firstborn or only born children. The other one
was a flat out liar. Uh. And, you know, here's
(23:04):
the kicker. And this goes back to one of the
Lehman isms. The strengths you have as a leader many
times become your weakness. You can spot a flaw at
50 paces. We talk at our Lehman schools about vitamin E,
which comes right out of Saint Paul's mouth. Encourage one another.
(23:25):
We want to give a lot of vitamin E encouragement
to those around us. But I pointed out that all
my editors have been firstborn or only born children. My
personal assistant, Debbie Backus, is a firstborn. She's been with
me for 35 years, played piano in her church, a
great lady, but as a baby of the family, I
(23:47):
am not a detailed person. I have to admit that
I fly by the seat of my pants a lot
in life. I pray for guidance, but I do a
lot of flying and sometimes I get in trouble. But
if you know your weaknesses and my weakness is detail
and organization. I mean, I'm the founder of eight charter schools.
(24:11):
How do you function as the chairman of the board,
for example, without being detailed? Well, you have some help.
I have a personal assistant that does a lot of
organization for me. And so building a team, when you
think about your team, whether you're a small business owner
or whatever, you don't want a bunch of people who
(24:33):
all think the same or all have the same birth order. Uh,
I just got hired to speak to the Western orthopedic
Surgeons Association meeting out in Hawaii this summer, and I've
spoke to them before, and I can tell you what
my opening line is right now to the orthopedic surgeons.
Why would you hire me to speak to you guys?
(24:54):
Because I can't tell you guys anything. No one can.
And they laugh at themselves. They know who they are.
But you, you want your anesthesiologist. You want your orthopedic
surgeon to be a perfectionist. But I point out in
this book, the perfectionism is slow suicide. The perfect one
(25:15):
is Jesus. So stop chasing the perfect thing and pursue
excellence in your life. You said something really profound at
the beginning of this interview. You said the leader solicits
the advice of other people. Yeah. And if you're going
to be a good leader today, there's a must.
S2 (25:39):
This is the podcast Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman,
author of the New York Times best seller The Five
Love Languages. We're talking with Doctor Kevin Lehman today about
his book, Be a Great Leader by Friday. Five Winning
plays to spark your world changing potential. Go to building
relationships to find out more. Plus, find more ways to
(25:59):
strengthen your relationships right there. Go to Building relationships.
S4 (26:07):
Well, Kevin, the name of the book is Be a
Great Leader by Friday. Do you believe that's really possible?
S1 (26:13):
Well, it could be Wednesday if you're decisive enough. I think,
you know, one of the things about being a leader
is you have to be visible. You know, I don't
I don't want to get political. But the last election
was a very interesting one. And the leader of the
(26:34):
ticket didn't do a very good job of being what?
visible you have to be visible. To be a good leader.
You have to have confidence to be a good leader.
And people follow leaders who are decisive and are specific
(26:56):
and obviously have thought out plans and strategies that work.
So I think any leader would tell you, I speak
to the Young Presidents organization. I've been their resource for
many years in many situations. I've been to one of
their universities down in Mexico City, where you're met with
a police escort, Gary, at the airport, and they take
(27:18):
you to the hotel, probably because they don't want you shot.
I don't know why they do that, but, you know,
at Ypo, these guys, they call them young because to
be in Ypo young Presidents organization, you have to be
under 50 years of age to be in it. Once
you become a 40 niner, you sort of graduate into
(27:40):
another group. But all these guys, for the most part,
are multi-millionaires. They're movers and shakers. They warned me when
I first spoke to Ypo. They said, listen, these guys
are so driven to get every bit of information from
every speaker. Don't be offended if people leave your session
(28:01):
when you're speaking. Well, me is the baby of the family.
I took that as a challenge and I said to myself,
I'm going to just see if anybody leaves my session.
And you get like two, 300 people probably in each session,
maybe more. And I can tell you, no one left.
(28:21):
No one left. And the most common. Feedback I got
from people was I loved your down to earth, honest,
real life examples. I love the way you talked Act.
I could listen to you forever. Well, I think again,
(28:42):
as a leader, you have to adjust the people's levels
depending upon who you're talking to, and you have to
identify with them. And that's why you hang out with them,
you know? In the old days, the shepherd was he
was literally the gate. The sheep might be in a pen,
but he actually laid down so that he knew if
(29:03):
a sheep was, you know, trying to get out at night.
He was the protector and the good shepherd. We see
that in the Bible. You know, he went way out
of his way to help that one. I mean, that
real shepherd. Again, back to the word authentic. He's got
to be real. He's got to love his people. But
(29:24):
the good shepherd, he also had this thing called a
rod with him. And the rod, by the way, wasn't
used to beat the sheep over the head. Okay. I
would take issue with anybody on that. But there's times
when Gary Chapman, the shepherd, would say, okay, sheep, come on,
let's move along. And, Gary, you might have one little
sheep who looks at you defiantly, sort of like a
(29:46):
four year old would do a mom or dad. And,
you know, sort of dig their hoofs in and say, no,
I'm not moving. Well, the good shepherd, Gary Chapman, would
go over with his rod. And what would he do?
He'd give him a little poke in the tail, move
him along. He would use the rod to guide the sheep.
(30:06):
And so when we think about leadership, we're not talking
about biting people's heads off, humiliating them, calling them, calling
them out in front of other people, we're going to
use our heads. And so the rod of correction, you know,
that's the time when you take that employee behind the
closed doors. You speak the truth in love and you
(30:27):
essentially say, you know, I want you to know I
believe in you. I think you can do this, but
I think we need to do some things different here.
If you need some help, I need to know what
specifically you need help with. And we'll get some people
to help you, because I want to see you succeed
in this job at this organization. That guy can not
walk away thinking, or that woman can't walk away thinking, boy,
(30:48):
they don't care about me because they do. They're just
trying to help.
S4 (30:51):
Yeah. That's great. You say in the book that there's
two people that you would never put in the same
room together without supervision. Who are those two people?
S1 (31:01):
Well, the two most likely candidates would be the two
first born children. Or the two only children, because you
got two people who know exactly how life ought to be.
I mean, I can tell you that I've lived with
this woman that I've been married to for 57 years
in a row. I want to emphasize in a row, uh,
(31:22):
we're driving last night. And, uh, uh, all I did
was turn left. Now, Gary, that's a very simple thing.
Just turn left. Do you think she could let that
one go. Oh, no. No. Uh, honey, you know what? Um,
she's got a better idea. She's the firstborn. Okay. You
(31:43):
put two firstborns, she says all you got to do
is go down here and hit the street, and you
buy on the interstate in a second. Well, that's how
firstborns are. They can spot a flaw at 50 paces.
They tend to know everything. Okay. They've been the centerpiece
of their families since day one. So, yeah. Two firstborns. Uh,
(32:05):
or how about two babies? They've been in that same
room for an hour, and one of them says, hey,
I forgot what was the assignment they gave us to do?
S4 (32:15):
Yeah.
S1 (32:16):
Because they were talking about everything, but. So, yeah, it
gets back to, hey, if you're a leader, make sure
your team has a good reputation. And I'm not here
to tell you that birth order is the next best
thing to to slice bread. But I'm telling you that.
Isn't it amazing that if you look at any family,
the 3 or 4 little cubs that come out of
(32:37):
that family, guess what? They're all different. And that speaks
to the genius of God, who made all of us different.
I always point out to people who are interested in
birth order are identical twins. When I found this out, Gary,
I cried and laughed at the same time. Identical twins
(32:58):
who have the same DNA have different fingerprints. Why did
God do that? To help the FBI. Or was this
God's way of saying, you are my son, you are
my daughter. You are different than everyone else. So I
would just say to any leader, get behind the eyes
of these people you work with. Figure out what strengths
each person has and make sure you have diversity in
(33:21):
the strengths in the teams that you built on that
corporation or business called the bus.
S4 (33:28):
Yeah, I think our leaders who, who, who are in
positions and thinking about leadership or really taking notes on this,
I hope so. And then I hope you're going to
get the book, because this book, these practical things we're
talking about are spelled out in the book. And you
mentioned that there's two vitamins that leaders need. Uh, one,
(33:49):
you've already mentioned E, vitamin E encourage, but then you
said vitamin N, what is that for?
S1 (33:57):
Well, vitamin N and again, what I love about this,
you could look at parenthood. Yeah. We all need vitamin E,
but kids need vitamin N, and so do workers. So
do managers. Uh, as a leader, you have to be
the decision maker. I mean, there's other vitamins from accountability
(34:18):
to I like vitamin L, which is laughter. And, you know,
I mean, there's all kinds of vitamins that go into
building a business, but vitamin E, I love the encouragement,
but I love vitamin N, because you'll see there's three
basic types of leaders in life, Gary. There's the authoritarians
who see themselves as the boss, who just tell people
(34:41):
what to do. Then there's the permissive who are driven
on the premise that everybody has to like me. Well,
good luck with that. And then there's the authoritative leader,
and that's what I would like to see in action
across our country today is leaders who are authoritative. Those
(35:02):
are leaders who's who's no is no and who's yes
is yes. There are people who aren't afraid to make decisions.
They're not overly impressed with trying to make everybody happy
with the decisions that they're coming up with. But in
the process, they're soliciting the input of people that work
(35:25):
with that leader. That's what's really important. In fact, that
was one of the things I think you mentioned at
the beginning of this interview that the smart leader solicits opinions,
welcomes feedback from those around him. You got to be
pretty secure. You want people around you not who are
just a bunch of yes people. You want people who
are going to sometimes challenge what you're thinking about. It
(35:49):
helps refine the the metal, so to speak, by putting
the thing to the fire. So, uh, there's a lot
to being a leader. But, you know, people have said
to me over the years enough that I feel free
and sharing this without trying to sound pompous, but people
say I never get lost with big words in your books.
(36:11):
You keep things simple down to earth. And I think
successful people and people that I've really admired in life,
people that I've rubbed shoulders with over the years, I
think what attracts me to some of them, uh, most
of them, I should say, is they're down to earth nature.
(36:32):
I've done all those secular shows on TV. You know,
I really I've done. There's hardly one of them I
ever missed. But I think of Regis Philbin, who is now.
Left this earth. He was the most down to earth
guy I'd ever met. And interestingly enough, the governor of Oklahoma,
Frank Keating, invited me and a fellow by the name
(36:55):
of Bill Cosby. And I spent the day with Cosby,
and he was so down to earth and nice to people.
And when the tragic news came out about his. His life,
I was devastated. I thought, how could that be? He
took time to talk to people that, quite frankly, he
(37:16):
didn't have to talk to. I've met a lot of
I won't name names on people. Big time celebrities. You'd
know every one of them I'd name, but I didn't
even like being around them. Tell you the truth, I
just sort of avoided them, so I think if you
come in, don't be impressed with yourself. Okay. I don't
if if God's given you success in life, then thank
(37:39):
God for your success. Okay. It's real simple. Yeah. Don't
think you did it. Because, God, if you're a believer and.
And you said, God, take charge of my life. Trust
him in all things. Then give God the glory. Don't.
Don't sit there and try to make yourself into something
(37:59):
that you're not. I've always used self-depreciating humor, which sort
of helps me travel that gauntlet in life. I've done that,
I think, fairly well for a baby of the family anyway.
S4 (38:10):
I would agree with that. Yeah. Kevin, as you know,
I have worked on a church staff all these years
and all my counseling and everything has been done in
that context. Uh, what mistakes from your perspective do leaders
in the church often make?
S1 (38:29):
Well, let's start with, uh, the pastor. Okay. I'm so
glad you asked that question, because just this week, I had, uh,
breakfast with my pastor. I go to a large non-denominational
church here in Tucson, and our pastor is a terrific speaker. And, uh,
(38:50):
I reminded him in our conversation because he had just
taken off with his wife. They had some R&R for
a week before the Christmas season. This goes back several
months now, but, um, I just applauded his efforts that
to get away once in a while with your wife
and to prioritize. And I always get people's attention with this,
(39:13):
but they pastors don't put the church first, okay? Put
your wife first. Your kids need to be like, Avis,
rent a car number two. And trying harder in some way.
Some people are saying, well, wait a minute, hold on
a minute. Where's God in all this? Well, God's and
everything that's a given. But in terms of people, you know. Oh, honey,
(39:35):
I'd love to help you, but you know that there's
a board meeting down there, and you know how Harry
gets some nights I better go down there and make
sure that things run smoothly. I think pastors run the
risk of feeling like they're indispensable. And they have to be.
They have to have hands in everything in the church,
(39:55):
which they don't. I think pastors, many of them, make
the mistake of making their wife feel like she has
to be thoroughly involved in the church. I'll get people's
attention with this one. I don't think a pastor's wife
has to be involved in anything in the church. Anything
if she doesn't choose to.
S4 (40:17):
Yeah.
S1 (40:18):
Other than the worship and be a good helpmate to
her husband. I know that's blasphemy in some circles, but
I've seen it. I've seen so many pastors fall. You can't,
you know, read a newspaper. That's how old I am.
I still read newspapers or or go on your computer
and get Yahoo news and and you know, you can't
(40:41):
go a month without finding where some Christian leader has failed. Hey,
we're all we're full of failure. Yeah, we're redeemed through
the blood of Jesus. And and, you know, I'm just saying,
if you're real, uh, then prioritize. Be the model to
your people in life. And I'm not talking about being perfect.
I think one of the great things I love about
(41:04):
my pastor is he's vulnerable. He shares from the pulpit
sometimes things he struggles with. That's a source of encouragement
to me, not discouragement. Yeah. So I would say to everybody, uh,
this is February. We got Valentine's Day in this month. Uh,
some people call it the Love month. That was the
last time you took the time to write a note
(41:26):
to your pastor or to your kid's Sunday school teacher
and say, hey, I appreciate it. Or if you still
have a choir in your church or a praise band
or whatever, taking the time to thank people for the
hours that they put into preparing for that Sunday morning worship. Yeah,
I mean, stop stop thinking about yourself, right? That powerful, uh,
(41:50):
note packed with vitamin E, which is encouragement, just thanking
people for the contribution that they give back to this
body of believers called the church. Yeah, stuff like that.
S4 (42:02):
So important, so important. You mentioned the whole issue that
none of us are perfect, that we all make mistakes,
and leaders are people and they make mistakes. How important
is it that we learn from our mistakes?
S1 (42:17):
Well, it's if you want to really be a lifelong leader,
which I hope everybody wants to be as a leader.
It starts with realizing that, well, I'll go to a
scripture of King Solomon. I think the very last verse
is in Proverbs three. And he will direct your paths.
(42:37):
I wrote a book on that called The Way of
the wise. By the way, I leave. You'll love this one,
Pastor Gary Chapman I Lehman ized the scripture, which I'll
probably pay for it someday. But. But I love that
little scripture. And he he gives six little verses there.
And I took ten major themes from those six verses.
(43:01):
But I love the fact it says, and he will
direct your paths. And I want to remind people in life,
God doesn't give you just one path. Gary, when you
started out ministry, did you think you were going to
be a New York Times best selling author?
S4 (43:19):
Never crossed my mind.
S1 (43:22):
Never crossed my mind either. I said that, Gary, he's
never going to do anything in life. No, I said
I said that about myself, but you know. So my
wife Sandy, always says we make plans and God laughs.
So as you as you go through life, realize that
you have different paths in life and you learn as
(43:43):
you go. And there's times you look back and you say,
you know, last week at that meeting, I sort of
ran over Fred's feelings, you know, to a leader, I
would say, get on the honker, get on the phone,
call Fred and Fred. Fred, I've been talking, thinking about
you this week, and I've been thinking about what I
(44:04):
said to you at that meeting. And I have to
tell you that I. I'm really ashamed of myself. Would
probably be the best word. I think I mistakenly just
ran over your feelings, and I'm just profusely sorry that
I did that. Now I'm just telling you that that
will solidify the relationship with that guy forever. In fact,
(44:28):
research says this when you buy a product or obtain
a service and you rant and you rave and you
write a nasty note or whatever, and that person comes
back and apologizes to you for the poor service, puts
it in writing, says hey, comes back and give. You'll
take 22 different actions in one week to tell people
(44:51):
about this wonderful business that you were going to file
a complaint with the Better Business Bureau about. Why? Because
they apologize. They made things right. So as a leader,
be the first to say, I'm sorry I was wrong.
Would you forgive me? Those are people that will attract attention.
(45:13):
Those are people who will be leaders that people will
want to follow. Yeah. In fact, let me give you
a quick a quick little out of raising kids. They
always say, don't try this at home. I'm saying to
every young parent listening, you got a kid between 3
and 4. Try this at home. Say to a 3
or 4 year old with your arms outstretched. Come here.
Nine out of ten times the kid will go south.
(45:37):
If you want the kid to come toward you, extend
your arms toward the kid. Say the same words. Come here,
but walk backwards slowly. And that little guy will come
to you.
S4 (45:49):
Mm.
S1 (45:50):
It's a word picture, but it works. And that's how
you have to be with people. You don't carry a
big stick.
S4 (45:56):
Yeah. Well, Kevin, this hour has gone quickly. And I
want to thank you again for being with us today.
And thank you for writing this book. I think this
is going to help a lot of folks because many,
many people are in leadership roles. In fact, as we
said earlier, all of us are leading somebody. So thanks
for being with us today, and may God continue to
(46:18):
give you wisdom in all that you're doing and all
that he still has planned for you and your life.
S1 (46:23):
Thank you. Gary. You know I love you. You take
care of yourself. I'm happy you got this program. It's
very relevant. And it's all about relationships. And, man, we
need help in that one.
S4 (46:33):
Yep. You're right.
S3 (46:35):
Doctor Kevin Lehman has been our guest. And you can
see our featured resource at Building Relationships. Be a great
leader by Friday. Five winning plays to spark your world
changing potential. Just go to building relationships and next week,
more summer best of conversations. We'll talk about how to
love and like your spouse for a lifetime.
S2 (46:58):
Arlene Pelican joins us in one week. Before we go,
let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice.
Backing building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production
of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry
of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
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