June 28, 2025 • 44 mins
Almost 18 years ago, Dr. Gary Chapman took calls and connected with listeners to the new program called, Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. On the next broadcast, you’ll hear that first program where Gary took your questions and concerns. The monthly “Dear Gary” conversations are some of the most popular with listeners around the country. Hear that historic broadcast on the June Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:03):
In November of 2007, after only a few weeks on
the air, Moody Radio debuted the first Dear Gary broadcast
on building relationships with Gary Chapman. Today you get to
hear the first questions posed to Gary on this best
of presentation of building Relationships.
S2 (00:30):
Hi, this is Gary. Leave a message and I'll get
back to you.
S3 (00:34):
My husband and I are having an issue with his mother.
S4 (00:37):
I would like to know if he could maybe take
the subject of getting your husband to open up.
S5 (00:42):
I had got into a relationship with an adulterous woman
that went on for four years.
S6 (00:47):
What do you do? Get married even though you don't
feel you're ready. Break up. What do you do? I'm
calling about. My husband and I are on the verge
of divorce. It's going nowhere. And I don't think either
one of us want a divorce, but we can't live
the way we were.
S7 (01:06):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Hi,
I'm Andrea Fabbri, along with Chris Fabbri, and today we're
pleased to present our very first Dear Gary broadcast.
S8 (01:20):
When we first came on the air back at the
beginning of October, we gave a phone number out for
you to call if you have suggestions for the program. Feedback,
some encouragement for Gary and we have overloaded that line.
Today is the day we're going to dump your phone
calls right here. It's going to be a phone call
harvest for us today. Questions from that phone line. So
if you've left something there, today may be your day.
S7 (01:42):
Gary, you do get a lot of questions at your seminars.
I know, and you have to think fast. Do you
enjoy that part of the weekend?
S2 (01:48):
You know, I do. I enjoy interacting with with couples
and sometimes just with individuals when they will come up
and talk to me, their spouses in the back of
the auditorium somewhere and they want to have a private moment.
But I really do enjoy talking with people. Uh, I
enjoy doing the seminar, but I enjoy personal interaction because,
you know, when people come with personal things that, you know,
(02:09):
they're hurting and you also know they're open for help,
and when people are open for help, they're most likely
to find it.
S8 (02:15):
You know, there's an interesting phenomenon that happens on that
phone line, the listener line that we set up. And
that is many of them have been to a seminar
and they'll say, I talked to you afterward. That's kind
of an energizing time for you. But at the same time,
there's a lot of hurt out there.
S2 (02:31):
Oh, there is, yeah. You know, I use all the
break times on my seminars on Saturday, use all the times,
all the breaks to talk to people. I don't like
to go back in the room and hide. I want
to be with the people. Because the more I am
in touch with people's need, the more effective I'm going
to be as a communicator when I'm speaking.
S7 (02:48):
Well and to keep you, I'm sure, in touch with
what the real issues are, because principles are one thing
and yet it all plays out differently in individual lives,
doesn't it?
S2 (02:58):
Well, it does because everybody's different. You know, every situation
is somewhat different. Principles are pretty much the same, but
you have to learn how to apply them in different situations.
S8 (03:07):
Mhm. Well what we want to do and what the
mission really is of building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman,
is not just to sit around here and have a
good time on the weekend, but to listen to you,
to hear what's on your heart and in the process,
help a lot of other people. So let's get started.
Here's the first person up for dear Gary.
S3 (03:28):
Hi Gary, I'm so glad to hear that you put
this kind of a program on the radio every week.
I'm so excited. Um, I have my husband and I
are having an issue with his mother, and we want
very much to have a relationship with her. It's just
very frustrating. Every time we reach out, it seems like, um,
(03:49):
it's never good enough or never acceptable. And we really
could use some help.
S2 (03:55):
Wow. I think she represents a lot of, uh, a
lot of people who are struggling with in-law relationships. You know,
the caller wasn't specific in terms of what the what
the problem is. But many times when people reach out
to in-laws and try to build good relationships, they find
that the in-law is not responsive. And, you know, you
(04:16):
say that we'll come over and chat and they'll say, well,
this is not a convenient time for you to come.
And after a while you begin to feel like, wow,
maybe they don't want to have a relationship with us.
Maybe they don't like me. You know, so I would
say this, first of all, the best person to talk
to the mother in law is her son, not the
(04:38):
daughter in law. If the son will say to his mother,
you know, mom, I don't know what's going on here,
but I know that, uh, Margie and I or whatever
her name is, Margie and I are really frustrated with
with what's going on. Can you help me understand what
the dynamics are? You know what you're thinking, what you're feeling.
Because we're getting the impression that you don't want us around.
(05:00):
And I don't think that's true, but that's what we're
beginning to feel. You know, if you just ask an
honest question as you perceive it and let that mother
respond to that son, he'll probably get the truth. And
once you have the truth, then you can have an
appropriate response until you know what the mother in law
is really thinking. Anything you do is not going to help. So,
(05:20):
you know, we've got to find out what's going on
in her mind before you can solve the problem.
S7 (05:24):
Well, let me go to the next step then. Suppose
she says, well, of course I want you around. It's
just that you're you're this and you're that, and poor
me and I. And so it continues on where the
son which I can see where that's the healthier way
to go. Even then he feels like I can't win.
I can't win, mom, I don't know I don't know
what to do. Then what?
S2 (05:44):
Well, I think I would be specific. I would ask
questions of the mother. What could we do that would
be helpful to you because I want to be a
good son. My wife wants to be a good daughter
in law. What can we do that would be helpful
to you? Be specific rather than general. And if she
gives some ideas, then to the best of your ability,
you try to do those things. You don't let her
(06:05):
manipulate you, but you do take the information. And if
it's something that's reasonable, then the two of you can
begin to do that. Now we have to also acknowledge
that there are some mother in laws and father in
laws that you're never going to satisfy, but they have
a negative attitude. It's not just toward you, they're negative
toward life. And so consequently, what you whatever you do,
(06:29):
it's not going to be right. And you can't change
a person like that. But what I'm talking about is
trying to build a healthy relationship to the best of
your ability, which is what the scriptures teach. You know,
as much as it lies in your side, you try
to build a peaceful relationship with them and asking specific
questions is the route to go. because if you have
(06:50):
some idea of what you might do that would be helpful,
then you can share that. But the other side is true. Also,
you need to share with your mother what you're finding
difficult about this relationship, because if your mother is not
willing to make some changes, you know, again, you can't
make her change. But often they need to change. And
if they will, the relationship can be better. But the
(07:12):
mother in law's got to know what you're feeling. So
it's a two way street.
S8 (07:16):
And the rule of thumb is that it's the person
whose mother it is or father it is. That's the
best person to broach this. Don't put that on the
the in-law spouse. Right.
S2 (07:26):
Yeah. Almost always Chris, that's the better route to go.
Once in a while, parents will have a really bad
relationship with their own child, their own son or their
own daughter, and they really love the daughter in law
or the son in law. So once in a while,
the son in law, the daughter in law would be
the one to talk. But by and large, it's better
to have the son or daughter talking to their own
(07:47):
mother and father about the problem.
S7 (07:50):
I think we have time for one more call before
we take a break. Last week we presented a military theme,
and here's a caller with a question along those lines.
S9 (07:58):
Hi, I just wanted to see if there's any way
that maybe he could do a topic on when a
spouse loses a spouse, and then the Lord gives them
the encouragement to move on to another spouse and the
trials that you go through when this happens. And the
reason why I ask is my late husband was killed
(08:19):
in Iraq. The Lord has blessed me with another husband
who I never thought I'd have, and I'm very happy.
But he struggles with the fact of my late husband
and us not being divorced and the Lord taking him away.
It's just been a very big struggle and I'd like
to hear some more on this.
S2 (08:37):
Well, that's a pretty heavy topic. You know, anytime you
lose a spouse, whether it's in a military action or otherwise,
it's really a tough time of adjustment. I don't know
how long time was between her husband being killed and
the time she remarried, but often a part of the
struggle is that people get married too quickly. You know,
we're told by those who research grief that it takes
(09:00):
about two years for us to get back on a
normal emotional level, ground after the death of a spouse.
And sometimes we end up getting remarried within those two
years when we haven't fully worked through our own grief.
So we're still struggling emotionally with that, and now we're
in a new relationship. It can also cause a problem
(09:21):
for the person we married, because they sense that we
are still tied in some way to that spouse that's
now deceased. And in reality, we are, because we haven't
gotten through the grief process yet. We're still thinking about them,
remembering them, going through things we did together. And and
consequently we are to some degree tied to that person. Um,
(09:44):
but if you're already married, obviously you can't. You can't
extend the period before you get married. So I think
we have to start where we are. We have to
face the problem, lay it on the table. And apparently
this may be happening for this particular caller that her husband,
her new husband, is saying to her some things about this,
it's disturbing him. That's healthy because he's sharing with her, uh,
(10:06):
what's going on inside of him and what he's feeling
about her. And she has to be honest with him
and not try to deny it and say, no, he's dead.
I'm not, you know. No, but but to say to him,
you know, to be honest with you, I am struggling.
I guess I'm still feeling some of the pain, you know,
of the loss of all of that. I want to
go on. I mean, I love you, and I want
(10:26):
our marriage to be what God designed it to be.
So just, you know, help me, be patient with me
and let's talk about it. Let's work our way through this.
Because really, the primary way of working through grief is
to talk about it. The worst thing she can do
is to deny it or to try to hide it
and say, well, no, I'm not having thoughts of my husband,
my former husband, because she is. And you can't build
(10:50):
a relationship on deception. So she needs to be honest
with him. He needs to be honest with her. And
together they need to process the grief of the death
of her former husband.
S8 (11:00):
And in one sense, there's a positive in here that
she had a good relationship with her husband who was killed,
and that she's not coming from a a terrible marriage,
that she's trying to get over all of this hurt.
There was something good there. And so in one sense,
that can be comforting to the new spouse coming in
(11:21):
to say, I want to be as good, if not better,
a husband than your first.
S2 (11:26):
There is a positive there, Chris. There's also a downside
to that. And that is she may compare her new
husband with her former husband in particular areas of life.
And in her mind, she's saying, you know, my former
husband would never have done that. he would have been
more thoughtful than that. And so that's what she must guard,
because no two men are alike. You know, men can
(11:46):
be good men, good husbands, but they're not going to
be alike. And in some areas, her new husband is
going to be stronger than her former husband. And in
other areas, he's going to be weaker. So she has
to recognize him as a human and not yield to
those comparison, uh, you know, dialogs in her own mind. Otherwise,
she will be unfair to her new husband. So having
(12:07):
said that, there's an upside and a downside to her
having had a good marriage in the first marriage. But
I think it's far better that her marriage was good,
because she has a model of what a good marriage
is all about. When we come out of a poor marriage,
we don't have the model. So it's much easier to
if we've got a good model in front of us.
S10 (12:27):
First of all, thank you that the Savories are back
in the biz. I know that Chris is on MBI,
and it's nice to have Andrea back because I remember
both of them from the old midday connections. As a
broadcaster on a secular radio station, it's exciting to have
those two people back on the airwaves. And Doctor Chapman,
(12:49):
you were in Youngstown several years ago. I came to
see you and what an outstanding night it was. Just
a words of encouragement. Keep up the good work. Bless
you guys. Good to have you back. God bless. Bye bye.
S1 (13:02):
Hey.
S2 (13:03):
That's the kind of call we like to hear. Welcome back. Andrea.
S8 (13:07):
Yeah, I'd like to thank my brother for calling in. Jim,
this is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.
S7 (13:16):
You're hearing calls that came into our listener line at 1866424. Gary,
if you'd like to suggest a topic for a consideration,
give some feedback about Gary's ministry in your life, or
you just want to try and make us laugh like
that did call that number 1866424 Gary.
S8 (13:34):
Well, we're presenting our first Dear Gary program today. Responses
to your calls over the past few weeks. And let's
get back to the phone and hear our next caller.
S4 (13:45):
Yes, I would like to know if he could maybe
take the subject of getting your husband to open up.
My husband is very close. He doesn't share any of
his feelings with me and he doesn't. We've been married
29 years and it's just like, I mean, I share everything,
I'm bubbly and everything, and he's just very withdrawn. And
I'm just wondering if maybe you could explain how you
could get him to share.
S2 (14:06):
How many times have I heard that one? The wife
is talkative, the husband's quiet. You know, I wish I
knew what was going on inside of him.
S8 (14:14):
Well, here's the other thing, Gary. They've been married 29 years.
S2 (14:17):
29 years. Yeah, I think they could give us some advice.
S7 (14:21):
Well, it shows it doesn't just go away now, does it?
S2 (14:24):
No it doesn't. You know, in my seminars, I talk
about two kinds of people when it comes to talking.
One is the Dead Sea. That's the person who can
receive lots of things in life, but they don't have
any compulsion to share. They have this large reservoir where
they store all of that. And the other type is
what I call the babbling brook. Whatever comes in the
(14:44):
eye gate or the ear gate comes out the mouth gate.
And apparently she's a babbling brook and he's a dead sea.
And maybe she's an extreme babbling brook, and he's an
extreme Dead Sea. That's possible. In fact, that sounds like
the case because she said of herself, I'm bubbly and
always talking. So what I would say is this. He
will never talk more until she talks less. A dead
(15:08):
sea will never come into a river of flowing words.
If you want a Dead sea to talk more, you
have to leave little pools of silence. And the best
place to leave your little pools of silence is right
after your questions. You see the problem with babbling brooks sometimes,
especially what I call super babbling brooks. They will ask
(15:31):
you a question, and if you don't give him an
immediate answer, they'll answer their own question. They'll even tell
you what you think you know. They'll ask you, what
do you think about this? And if you don't answer,
they'll say, well, I know what you think you know.
And so the Dead Sea is saying inside, you know,
no need for me to talk. I mean, she can
ask the questions and give the answers. I don't need
to say anything. And this is hard, because if a
(15:53):
person is a super babbling brook, they've been doing that
all their lifetime. It's natural for them.
S7 (15:59):
Well, and it comes out with other in social relationships too.
You can practice there being quieter because you can see
it in couples. Well, I can see myself in this.
You just fill the silences all the time, even in
social settings.
S2 (16:12):
Yes. That's correct. You know, it'd be interesting to know
if her husband talks more freely around other people when
she's not there. I reason I bring that up. My
wife and I were visiting a widow some time ago,
and in the course of our conversation, her husband had
been dead about a month, and we just went by
to see her and she said, you know, my husband
(16:32):
was a very quiet man. He just didn't talk much.
But he was a very good man. And she went
on to tell about his good qualities. Well, when my
wife and I got back in the car, I said
to her, do you think she's talking about the man
we knew? Because the man we knew talked freely, you know,
in social settings. When he would be by himself, he
would just talk. He would joke. He was. I mean,
he was a, you know, very outgoing guy. And then
(16:54):
we both smiled because we knew what the problem was.
At home, he never got a chance to talk. She
filled up all the spaces. I mean, she was the
night we visited her, we said very little. She just
talked and talked and talked and talked and talked. So consequently,
he had learned that he didn't need to talk at home.
So he talked when he was around other people.
S7 (17:14):
So what would you say to the, let's say, the
husband listening? Who knows? Who knows? That's my wife. She talks.
She fills all those silences. Is there something he could do, though,
to help?
S2 (17:25):
Or if she complains to him, if she says such
things as I wish you'd talk more. I don't ever
know what you're thinking. Then he can take that, that
she has the desire for him to share more of himself.
So he could then say to her, you know, honey,
obviously I'm not the talker that you are, but I
(17:45):
would be willing to talk more if you would give
me a chance. So the next time you ask me
a question, just give me a little silence. Give me.
Give me a moment to think about what I want
to say, and I'll answer your question. But when you
ask the question and then you give the answer, I'm
not motivated to think about what I want to say.
(18:07):
So I'm willing to work with you. I'm willing to
to to share more than I've been sharing. I know
I hear what you're saying, and I'd like to share
more with you, but we're going to have to change
the pattern because I can't just give you an immediate answer.
I have to think about what I'm going to say.
So give me a little time and I'll try to
do that. He's being very open and very honest.
S8 (18:28):
And if those opposites which normally attract, you're probably going
to have one person that is a little more verbal
than the other. But I even see it in the
relationship I have with Andrea. I can talk all day
long about the Super Bowl and about, you know, how
the Rockies did in the World Series and all that,
all this other stuff that really freely. But when you
get down to the depths of my feeling, it takes
(18:49):
a lot of effort to kind of drag that out.
And so maybe what she's asking for is not necessarily
for him to talk more. It's to talk more substantively
about what's deep down inside.
S2 (19:02):
And most likely that's the case. He probably talks about
the logistics of life with her, but he doesn't share
what his thoughts and feelings are about issues that she
is interested in. So I think you're exactly right. So,
you know, you do have these dynamics of of our personality,
the Dead Sea and the babbling brook. But there are
other reasons why a husband may not be talking. Or
(19:24):
sometimes it's a wife who doesn't talk. Sometimes they have
tried to share their thoughts in the past, and when
they did, they were condemned. Their spouse came across as saying, well,
that's stupid. I mean, why would you think that? That
doesn't make any sense at all. Well, you say that
a few times, and the next time the spouse is
not going to say anything because none of us like
(19:46):
to be put down. You like to be clobbered. So
you need to also look back and ask yourself, how
have I responded when my spouse did share an idea?
Did share one of their thoughts or feelings? How did
I respond? You may be shutting down the communication that
you deeply are longing for.
S7 (20:06):
Well, there were some really great questions on our listener line.
If you don't hear your call, it's not because it's
wasn't important. We listen to each one and have struggled
to present some representative listeners. So up next, a positive
story about the results of Gary's ministry.
S11 (20:21):
I'm a Christian counselor, have utilized Utilize the Five Love
Languages book for a number of years. One of the
most memorable experiences I had implementing it was when just
one man came in without his spouse reporting that basically
she was fed up, had given up. She was just,
I think, solidifying the plans for getting out. She refused
(20:44):
to come in to counseling with him. As we talked
and I introduced the five love languages, I gave him
an assignment to go home and ask his wife, what
is one thing I can do that would show you
I love you? Apparently, she responded in what I took
to be probably a rather sarcastic tone and was telling him,
(21:04):
do the dishes every night. Well, I told him to
do his assignment, come back in a couple of weeks.
When he did, he was just amazed. He said, I
don't know what happened. She's not the same woman. He said.
She's smiling at me. We're having a sexual relationship again.
She's no longer talking about leaving. He said it's like
night and day. And he said all I did was
(21:26):
do the dishes. He couldn't believe that doing one simple
thing made such a huge difference. I have actually shared
that example with other couples too, because sometimes I think
they underestimate the power of using or expressing love to
their mate in their preferred language.
S2 (21:43):
I am so encouraged when I hear counselors share stories
like that, and I hear it a lot. I'm encouraged.
First of all, that counselors are using the concept in
trying to help people. And over and over again, counselors
say to me, you know, it's amazing how quickly a
marriage can turn around when one individual starts loving the
(22:04):
other person in the right love language. You know, for
something so simple, uh, Chris and Andrea, it's amazing the
emotional difference it makes in a couple. This wife's language
is obviously was acts of service. And one of the
things that she really appreciated was him washing the dishes.
So when he asked the question and then responded to
(22:26):
her answer, it communicated deeply to her that he really
does love me. And she responded positively to him.
S7 (22:34):
Whether it makes sense or not, to him. And that's
what he got past, obviously.
S2 (22:39):
Yeah. That's right. You know, I had a man say
to me some time ago, he said, you know, Gary,
if someone had told me that my taking out garbage
every day would make my wife feel loved, I would
have taken out the garbage, he said. But, you know,
nobody told me that. So what he was saying was,
you know, if I had known this concept earlier, I
would have been using it. And I think that's true
(22:59):
of many couples. In fact, I've had people say to me,
you know, why didn't I think of this earlier? It's
so simple. And the reality is, it is simple. Uh,
not always easy to do because sometimes, you know, we're
not highly motivated to take out the garbage. But if
we realize that it makes our spouse feel loved, then
we have the motivation, the Motivation. The results when what
(23:20):
we want is for them to feel loved.
S8 (23:23):
And we're not saying that if you have a troubled marriage,
all you have to do is one little thing to
fix it. But this will help you show that love
that you want so desperately to show to that other person.
S2 (23:35):
Yeah, you get on the right track when you discover
their love language and it's not doing one thing. It
may be a number of things. For example, acts of service.
I mean, there are many acts of service, you know,
washing dishes and and taking out garbage. Yes, but vacuuming floors,
you know, uh, changing the baby's diaper, walking the dog,
mowing the grass, I mean, all kinds of things. And
(23:55):
any one of those things will likely speak loudly to
your spouse. But I say, you know better to ask
your spouse what would be most meaningful to you. Because
even if it's an act of service, you may be
doing one thing and they would prefer you'd be doing
something else, so you may as well spend your energy
doing something that's going to be meaningful to your spouse.
S1 (24:16):
You're listening to a best of building relationships with Doctor
Gary Chapman from almost 18 years ago. This was our
very first Dear Gary broadcast from November of 2007. Yes,
our voices might sound a little younger, but Gary's wisdom
is the constant here, and so is our featured resource,
(24:37):
the Five Love Languages. You can find out more at
five Love Languages. Again, go to five Love languages.com.
S8 (24:47):
Let's deal with singles issues in this segment, Gary. And
here's our first caller.
S12 (24:53):
I'm 20 years old, a college student, and I actually
I've just been wondering. My family ties at home are
not as strong, and I'm just kind of in fear
of having, um, strong my own strong family and, like,
ties with my husband in the future. And just, I mean,
I don't even have a boyfriend yet, but I just,
(25:13):
I feel like since I don't have strong family ties
at home, or how my relationships at home aren't what
I want them to be, I just feel like I
would likely have trouble making my own way and new
relationships in the future.
S2 (25:29):
I am so encouraged that a 20 year old would
be asking that question.
S8 (25:34):
Isn't that great?
S2 (25:35):
Yeah, because it says, you know, they're thinking they're looking
back at their family. They're realizing there were some flaws
in the quality of the relationship and the family. They're
looking ahead and they're thinking about, you know, I don't
want to have what I came out of. How can
this be different? And the good news is that when
a person is that open and that insightful, there's hope
(25:58):
and there's help. The reality is skills in marriage and
family life, the things that make marriage and family work
can be learned. That's why we have so many books
on marriage and family. That's why we have marriage seminars,
parenting seminars, all these things. Because we know that if
people can get the right information and develop the right skills,
(26:19):
then they can overcome a lot of baggage from the
past when they try to build their marriage and their family.
So I would just say to this young lady, you know,
read some good books, take a course. If you're in college,
take a course on marriage and family. If there's one
offered from time to time, you know, go to workshops
and classes that may be offered at your church. Even
(26:39):
though you're not married, you can still learn what what
makes marriage work. The more you can learn, even before
you get a boyfriend, the better off you're going to be,
and the more likely you are to not duplicate what
you came out of.
S7 (26:53):
And there's no easy road for anybody, even the best
of family circumstances. You're still going to have a road ahead.
S2 (27:00):
Yes. You know, you can grow up in a good
family and get married and wonder. Wait a minute. I
didn't think this was the way it's supposed to work.
I remember my own son said to me, he didn't
get married until he's 34. And he said to me,
after the first year of marriage, hey, dad, you didn't
tell me it was going to be this hard the
first year. You know, he had he had seen our
marriage and and, you know, he was a good family
(27:22):
and he grew up and he was happy. And he
thought he was going to get married and have a
marriage just like ours. But of course, he knew, because
we had told him that the first several years for
us were rough as well. Uh, but you can, you know,
you're going to find some difficulty in a marriage relationship,
even if you came out of a good family. But
if you have the concepts of of acceptance of the
other person and learning how to negotiate the differences and
(27:46):
learning how to resolve conflicts by listening to each other
and and affirming each other, those kind of skills will
go a long ways in helping you have a good marriage,
whatever the background.
S8 (27:56):
Well, let's go from a 20 year old to a
little bit different age range.
S6 (28:02):
Oh, hi. I just have a subject to discuss. It's, um,
older singles, um, that are a couple or in a
relationship for several months, but because of prior relationships, prior marriages,
they're hesitant about marriage but still have a chemistry going
(28:25):
on and know that physical relationship is wrong. So what
do you do? Get married even though you don't feel
you're ready? Break up. What do you do?
S2 (28:37):
Good question. And there's thousands of older singles who are
in that situation. You know, we have attraction, natural attraction,
men for women. And even if we're Christians and we
had a bad marriage, or maybe a spouse is dead
and we're single again, and so we start dating. But
because of all the background and all the baggage, we're
(29:00):
not ready to jump into another marriage. And yet we
have these desires physically for each other. So what are
we going to do about that? And what I would
say is, certainly you don't get married just because you're
struggling with your your physical desires. That's not a foundation
for getting married. Secondly, I don't think you break up.
(29:21):
There's nothing really to be gained by that, because what
happens is you'll find yourself getting involved in another relationship.
I think what you have to do is to be
open and honest about the nature of your relationship. You see,
if one of you is anticipating marriage to this person
and the other has already decided, you know, I'm not
going to get married, at least not for the time being.
(29:44):
And you don't know that? Then you can find a
lot of hurt and a lot of frustration. But if
both of you sit down and say, let's just share
with each other where we are, what are you thinking?
What are you feeling? And be open about how you
feel about the other person, but also what guidelines you
have where you think this relationship might go. What timeline
(30:04):
are you thinking about? Or maybe you're not even thinking
about marriage at all. Anytime. So opening up and sharing
with each other your honest thoughts and your honest feelings,
and together deciding whether the relationship should continue or whether
relationship should simply stop. But the two of you, if
you're honest, can come. And if you're looking to God
(30:26):
for direction, you can come to a good conclusion.
S8 (30:29):
Just one more observation. It seems to me that that
from that call. And I'm so glad she left that
message that there is this hormonal, this sexual drive that
is kind of clouding the issue, much like happens with
teenagers who believe I'm in love. I'm in love, and
they really have that physical attraction, but not a whole
lot else going on for that relationship. Aren't those two
(30:52):
kind of similar, even though they're such disparate ages?
S2 (30:55):
I think they are similar because, Chris, you know, when
you're in a dating relationship and especially if you have
those those feelings of love, which I call the tingles,
you know, we get into this real high, euphoric, warm
feelings for each other and then the sexual, you know,
feelings enter into that. It can be a very volatile
situation and we know it is for teenagers. I mean,
(31:17):
we have lots of teenagers who never intended to get pregnant,
but they get involved sexually. And before they know what
happens there, the girl is pregnant. So the same thing
happens whether you're 45 or whether you're 20 or whether
you're 55. I've seen single adults, you know, 45, 55,
who are just as giddy as a 13 year, 14,
(31:39):
16 year old. And the dangers are just as great
at that point as they are when we're earlier. So,
you know, we have to have guidelines that to me,
this is the key issue, have guidelines on our sexual behavior.
It's fine to admit that we're sexual not trying to
deny our sexual desires, but we we have to follow
(31:59):
biblical patterns, and we have to have guidelines that help
us be true to our convictions.
S7 (32:06):
There's one more issue we want to tackle, and here's
a caller with that subject.
S13 (32:10):
Hello, my name is Linda. I'm 44 years old, divorced,
two little kids. I'm dating a man that I met
through a website and things are going well, although it
is a long distance relationship. But one thing happens when
we're together that concerns me. This man has been divorced
for only one year. What concerns me about that is
(32:32):
whenever we're having a discussion about something, um, that involves
our relationship and how we're communicating, he brings up the
fact that her filter that she used to hear him
included her perception that he was controlling and manipulative. Um,
I don't see it that way. He's a very strong personality.
(32:54):
He has his own ideas about things, and there's no
gray areas with him. It's all black and white, and
I understand that. Um, but every time he brings her up,
which happens probably every time we're together, it's with such
strong emotion, such anger and hurt. I'm just wondering if
maybe this is too soon for him. Or am I
(33:15):
assuming it's too soon? I'm not sure how to interpret
what I'm getting from him as far as his communication
with me about his ex-wife.
S2 (33:24):
I think it is too soon. You know, I said
earlier in the program that research indicates that it takes
two years after a divorce for a person to get
back on level ground emotionally. And the most common mistake
people make is they get involved with someone else too early.
They're still going through processing the pain and the hurt
(33:47):
of that divorce that they went through, or sometimes the
death of a spouse. And they get involved with someone else.
It meets needs for them. Yes, it helps alleviate the
loneliness and the hurt, but it's too soon for them
to be getting involved in a in a in a
serious dating relationship. So to me, that would be a
red flag waving. The other thing I would say in
(34:08):
this particular case is if you're going to continue to
see each other, I suggest that you have a personality profile.
You're the fellow you're dating as well as yourself, and
let's see what the patterns are in his personality. If
his first wife saw him as controlling, and I hear
you saying that he's very certain of himself, it's black
(34:31):
and white. His first wife may have been right. He
may be a controller. And you need to face that clearly.
So I'd say go to a Christian counselor and just say,
you know, we'd like to have a personality profile to
help us understand what the points of conflict might be
in our relationship. Uh, I wouldn't go. I wouldn't go
very far without doing that. I mean, to me, that's
(34:53):
just simply common sense. And you're being very honest and
open with each other about your personality patterns, but I
do think it's too early. And, uh, you know, lots
of people do meet on the internet these days. But
to be honest with you, and I mean, if it's
if there's a filtering, if it's one of the programs
where they have filtering patterns and, and help you find
(35:13):
someone that is more similar to you and beliefs and
those kind of things, that's one thing that can be helpful. Uh,
but if it's just simply someone you met on the internet,
a lot of red flags there, you ought to do
a lot of excavation to make sure that what you
think is true about this person really is true about
the person.
S8 (35:33):
This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman and our
special Dear Gary Edition. I think this is something we
ought to do regularly.
S7 (35:40):
I do too, as long as listeners have questions and
concerns and feedback they'd like to give, we will schedule
these types of broadcasts. Our phone number is 1866424. Gary,
we would love to have your question and include you
on a future broadcast. one 866 424.
S8 (35:59):
Gary, let's get back to the calls. Gary, this is
one of those that is so personal. And yet I
think it will strike a chord with you and with
a lot of people.
S5 (36:08):
I had got into a relationship with an adulterous woman
that went on for four years. I've been a Christian
since 1985, and the shame and guilt just got to me.
And I still love her, still miss her, but I
know that I had to get away from it. And
I thought to myself, I really came to this revelation
that if I really do love this woman, that I
(36:29):
would let her go and not be selfish anymore and
try to hold on to her. But I would let
her go because she has children and a husband and
a home, and I feel really good about that decision
that I made.
S2 (36:43):
Wow. I wish we had more of those kind of
calls of guys who realize in the middle of the
stream that they're doing wrong and they're going to hurt themselves.
They're going to hurt someone else, they're going to hurt
some children. and in spite of their feelings of love,
which is what I heard him say, I'm still loving her.
I still miss her in spite of those feelings. They
(37:04):
choose to do what is right. It's very difficult because
you see in the theme in our society is God
wants me to be happy. And so I'm not happy
in my marriage, but I'm happy with this woman. And
so even Christians make very poor decisions and break up
their own marriage and break up someone else's marriage in
order to be happy. The reality is, those feelings only
(37:26):
last for a time and they come down off the high. Now,
you know, he said they had been carrying on this
affair for four years. When it's a secretive affair, the
emotions tend to last longer. The average national level is
that after two years of the the strong emotional feelings,
you come down off the high. But if it's a
(37:47):
secretive affair, those feelings can go on for a longer
period of time. And in the middle of those feelings,
when he's still feeling those positive vibes for her. He
recognizes that what he's doing is wrong and he makes
the choice to break it off. I wish other men
and women could hear that and understand the reality of that.
(38:07):
It's not easy to break off an affair, but it's
right to break off an affair. And to be very
honest with you. Chris and Andrea, I've never met anyone
who regretted doing right, but they are in my office
and other counselors offices every week. Who did wrong? Five
years ago, left their spouse, ran off with the person
(38:28):
they were having an affair with, and now they've come
down off the high, and now they're trying to get
counseling in that second or third marriage. Don't misunderstand me.
I'm glad they're trying to get help, but it would
have been a whole lot easier if they'd gotten help
back upstream. I just wish that more Christians could understand
that happiness is not God's goal for us. God's goal
(38:52):
for us is that we follow his teachings and that
in following his teachings, we will always be the better
and our families will always be better when we follow
God's teachings and when we violate those teachings, I don't
care how we feel or how happy we may be
for a while. We're going to cause problems for ourselves
and all the people around us.
S8 (39:13):
Well, our final call is one of those that probably
represents a lot of hurting people.
S14 (39:19):
My husband and I are on the verge of divorce.
I've read your book, The Five Love Languages and so
has he, but it seems like we still can't get
it together and we're still fighting. So I wondered if
you had any ideas. Um, I don't know. We don't
take responsibility, maybe for what we've done or what's happened
in our relationship. Do you have any ideas? It just
(39:40):
seems like it's going nowhere. And I don't think either
one of us want a divorce, but we can't live
the way we were.
S2 (39:46):
If you don't get help from reading a book, then
go for counseling. That's what counselors are all about. That's
what pastors are all about. That is those pastors who
do counseling. Uh, we're here to help people. And you
don't have any problems that other people haven't had similar problems.
And so you may as well reach out and ask someone,
you know, look, here's where we are. We're Christians. We
(40:08):
don't want a divorce, but we're we're miserable. So help
us and you can find help. There's no reason that
you need to go to divorce, and no reason you
need to continue living with a level of stress that
you're talking about. There are answers, and Christian counselors and
pastors can help you discover those answers. So I would
just really encourage people who are in those kind of
(40:28):
marriages to reach out for help. I'm amazed at how
many people come to the point of divorce. I'm talking
about Christians come to the point of divorce, and they've
never reached out for counseling. They say, well, I went
to a marriage seminar once, or I went to a
weekend retreat, or I read a book and, you know,
but this is serious stuff. You need the best help
you can get. And the wonderful news is that all
(40:51):
over America, there are Christian counselors in every major city
in the country, and you can find help. So I
would just encourage you to reach out. Don't give up
on the marriage, and don't lock yourself into a life
of misery. Reach out and find help. There's help available.
S7 (41:06):
Give a word of hope, and maybe you can use
a specific couple that you've seen. Or just generally speaking,
I mean, you've seen many couples who didn't think they
could make it.
S2 (41:16):
Who have many of the couples that come into my
office come at the point of giving up? In fact,
most of them are desperate. That's why they come. And
what I say to them at the very beginning, I
understand you don't have any hope, but I have hope
for you. So believe in my hope, and let's try
some things. And one by one, we begin to tackle
(41:36):
the issues that have driven them apart. The issues they've
never resolved. And as they begin to listen to each other,
which is a big factor. Most couples don't know how
to listen to each other. They listen long enough to
give their opinion and they end up arguing. And you
don't win anything by arguing. And so teaching them how
to listen to each other empathetically, to understand what's going
(41:57):
on inside the other person and then have a proper
response to it. And when couples begin to get the
thrill of being heard and being understood and solving conflicts,
they don't have to take but 3 or 4 steps
in the right direction, and they begin to feel better
about themselves. That's why, you know, because of my own experience,
(42:17):
I'm so positive on encouraging couples to reach out for help.
S8 (42:22):
And it can get messy. It can get ugly. There
can be cross words said. And it you know, a
lot of people really shy away from that. I think,
you know, marriage ought to be always being happy and
never raising your voice. But that's not reality. And if
you get past that and get past all of the
ugly stuff that it can can bring up, there's hope
(42:42):
on the other side of that.
S2 (42:44):
There is. And, you know, one of the reasons Chris
and Andrew and you know this about me, but one
of the reasons I have so much hope for people
is because of my own experience. And Carolyn and I
went through so many years in those early times in
our marriage in which we just struggled and we didn't
seem like we were getting anywhere. And we argued and
we put each other down and we withdrew from each other.
So I know, I know those struggles, I know that pain.
(43:06):
And that's why I identify with people so well who
are in that situation. But I also know that there
are answers. And God gave us those answers and brought
us through that, and he can bring other couples through that.
I'm grateful that people are being honest about their struggle
because that's the first step. And then once you're honest,
then you reach out and try to find help.
S7 (43:28):
Well, we want to thank all of you who contributed
to our program today, and that's why we're here to help.
And if you would like to be a part of
our program future program, call one 866 424. Gary. That
is our listener line. If you'd like to go to
our website and email us. The website is five Love Languages.
That's five love languages.com.
S8 (43:50):
What do you think, Gary? Do you like being dear
Gary for a week?
S2 (43:53):
I'm ready to start my column. Chris. Yes.
S8 (43:57):
All right. We'll see you back here next week.
S1 (44:01):
And there you have it. From November of 2007, our
first Dear Gary broadcast. Hope you enjoyed that. Today and
next week it's a summer best of conversation with Doctor
Patrick Morley. Don't miss his hope filled message for men.
Big thank you to our producer, Janice backing and our
engineer and musical aficionado Steve Wick. Building relationships with Doctor
(44:24):
Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association
with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks
for listening.
In November of 2007, after only a few weeks on
the air, Moody Radio debuted the first Dear Gary broadcast
on building relationships with Gary Chapman. Today you get to
hear the first questions posed to Gary on this best
of presentation of building Relationships.
S2 (00:30):
Hi, this is Gary. Leave a message and I'll get
back to you.
S3 (00:34):
My husband and I are having an issue with his mother.
S4 (00:37):
I would like to know if he could maybe take
the subject of getting your husband to open up.
S5 (00:42):
I had got into a relationship with an adulterous woman
that went on for four years.
S6 (00:47):
What do you do? Get married even though you don't
feel you're ready. Break up. What do you do? I'm
calling about. My husband and I are on the verge
of divorce. It's going nowhere. And I don't think either
one of us want a divorce, but we can't live
the way we were.
S7 (01:06):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Hi,
I'm Andrea Fabbri, along with Chris Fabbri, and today we're
pleased to present our very first Dear Gary broadcast.
S8 (01:20):
When we first came on the air back at the
beginning of October, we gave a phone number out for
you to call if you have suggestions for the program. Feedback,
some encouragement for Gary and we have overloaded that line.
Today is the day we're going to dump your phone
calls right here. It's going to be a phone call
harvest for us today. Questions from that phone line. So
if you've left something there, today may be your day.
S7 (01:42):
Gary, you do get a lot of questions at your seminars.
I know, and you have to think fast. Do you
enjoy that part of the weekend?
S2 (01:48):
You know, I do. I enjoy interacting with with couples
and sometimes just with individuals when they will come up
and talk to me, their spouses in the back of
the auditorium somewhere and they want to have a private moment.
But I really do enjoy talking with people. Uh, I
enjoy doing the seminar, but I enjoy personal interaction because,
you know, when people come with personal things that, you know,
(02:09):
they're hurting and you also know they're open for help,
and when people are open for help, they're most likely
to find it.
S8 (02:15):
You know, there's an interesting phenomenon that happens on that
phone line, the listener line that we set up. And
that is many of them have been to a seminar
and they'll say, I talked to you afterward. That's kind
of an energizing time for you. But at the same time,
there's a lot of hurt out there.
S2 (02:31):
Oh, there is, yeah. You know, I use all the
break times on my seminars on Saturday, use all the times,
all the breaks to talk to people. I don't like
to go back in the room and hide. I want
to be with the people. Because the more I am
in touch with people's need, the more effective I'm going
to be as a communicator when I'm speaking.
S7 (02:48):
Well and to keep you, I'm sure, in touch with
what the real issues are, because principles are one thing
and yet it all plays out differently in individual lives,
doesn't it?
S2 (02:58):
Well, it does because everybody's different. You know, every situation
is somewhat different. Principles are pretty much the same, but
you have to learn how to apply them in different situations.
S8 (03:07):
Mhm. Well what we want to do and what the
mission really is of building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman,
is not just to sit around here and have a
good time on the weekend, but to listen to you,
to hear what's on your heart and in the process,
help a lot of other people. So let's get started.
Here's the first person up for dear Gary.
S3 (03:28):
Hi Gary, I'm so glad to hear that you put
this kind of a program on the radio every week.
I'm so excited. Um, I have my husband and I
are having an issue with his mother, and we want
very much to have a relationship with her. It's just
very frustrating. Every time we reach out, it seems like, um,
(03:49):
it's never good enough or never acceptable. And we really
could use some help.
S2 (03:55):
Wow. I think she represents a lot of, uh, a
lot of people who are struggling with in-law relationships. You know,
the caller wasn't specific in terms of what the what
the problem is. But many times when people reach out
to in-laws and try to build good relationships, they find
that the in-law is not responsive. And, you know, you
(04:16):
say that we'll come over and chat and they'll say, well,
this is not a convenient time for you to come.
And after a while you begin to feel like, wow,
maybe they don't want to have a relationship with us.
Maybe they don't like me. You know, so I would
say this, first of all, the best person to talk
to the mother in law is her son, not the
(04:38):
daughter in law. If the son will say to his mother,
you know, mom, I don't know what's going on here,
but I know that, uh, Margie and I or whatever
her name is, Margie and I are really frustrated with
with what's going on. Can you help me understand what
the dynamics are? You know what you're thinking, what you're feeling.
Because we're getting the impression that you don't want us around.
(05:00):
And I don't think that's true, but that's what we're
beginning to feel. You know, if you just ask an
honest question as you perceive it and let that mother
respond to that son, he'll probably get the truth. And
once you have the truth, then you can have an
appropriate response until you know what the mother in law
is really thinking. Anything you do is not going to help. So,
(05:20):
you know, we've got to find out what's going on
in her mind before you can solve the problem.
S7 (05:24):
Well, let me go to the next step then. Suppose
she says, well, of course I want you around. It's
just that you're you're this and you're that, and poor
me and I. And so it continues on where the
son which I can see where that's the healthier way
to go. Even then he feels like I can't win.
I can't win, mom, I don't know I don't know
what to do. Then what?
S2 (05:44):
Well, I think I would be specific. I would ask
questions of the mother. What could we do that would
be helpful to you because I want to be a
good son. My wife wants to be a good daughter
in law. What can we do that would be helpful
to you? Be specific rather than general. And if she
gives some ideas, then to the best of your ability,
you try to do those things. You don't let her
(06:05):
manipulate you, but you do take the information. And if
it's something that's reasonable, then the two of you can
begin to do that. Now we have to also acknowledge
that there are some mother in laws and father in
laws that you're never going to satisfy, but they have
a negative attitude. It's not just toward you, they're negative
toward life. And so consequently, what you whatever you do,
(06:29):
it's not going to be right. And you can't change
a person like that. But what I'm talking about is
trying to build a healthy relationship to the best of
your ability, which is what the scriptures teach. You know,
as much as it lies in your side, you try
to build a peaceful relationship with them and asking specific
questions is the route to go. because if you have
(06:50):
some idea of what you might do that would be helpful,
then you can share that. But the other side is true. Also,
you need to share with your mother what you're finding
difficult about this relationship, because if your mother is not
willing to make some changes, you know, again, you can't
make her change. But often they need to change. And
if they will, the relationship can be better. But the
(07:12):
mother in law's got to know what you're feeling. So
it's a two way street.
S8 (07:16):
And the rule of thumb is that it's the person
whose mother it is or father it is. That's the
best person to broach this. Don't put that on the
the in-law spouse. Right.
S2 (07:26):
Yeah. Almost always Chris, that's the better route to go.
Once in a while, parents will have a really bad
relationship with their own child, their own son or their
own daughter, and they really love the daughter in law
or the son in law. So once in a while,
the son in law, the daughter in law would be
the one to talk. But by and large, it's better
to have the son or daughter talking to their own
(07:47):
mother and father about the problem.
S7 (07:50):
I think we have time for one more call before
we take a break. Last week we presented a military theme,
and here's a caller with a question along those lines.
S9 (07:58):
Hi, I just wanted to see if there's any way
that maybe he could do a topic on when a
spouse loses a spouse, and then the Lord gives them
the encouragement to move on to another spouse and the
trials that you go through when this happens. And the
reason why I ask is my late husband was killed
(08:19):
in Iraq. The Lord has blessed me with another husband
who I never thought I'd have, and I'm very happy.
But he struggles with the fact of my late husband
and us not being divorced and the Lord taking him away.
It's just been a very big struggle and I'd like
to hear some more on this.
S2 (08:37):
Well, that's a pretty heavy topic. You know, anytime you
lose a spouse, whether it's in a military action or otherwise,
it's really a tough time of adjustment. I don't know
how long time was between her husband being killed and
the time she remarried, but often a part of the
struggle is that people get married too quickly. You know,
we're told by those who research grief that it takes
(09:00):
about two years for us to get back on a
normal emotional level, ground after the death of a spouse.
And sometimes we end up getting remarried within those two
years when we haven't fully worked through our own grief.
So we're still struggling emotionally with that, and now we're
in a new relationship. It can also cause a problem
(09:21):
for the person we married, because they sense that we
are still tied in some way to that spouse that's
now deceased. And in reality, we are, because we haven't
gotten through the grief process yet. We're still thinking about them,
remembering them, going through things we did together. And and
consequently we are to some degree tied to that person. Um,
(09:44):
but if you're already married, obviously you can't. You can't
extend the period before you get married. So I think
we have to start where we are. We have to
face the problem, lay it on the table. And apparently
this may be happening for this particular caller that her husband,
her new husband, is saying to her some things about this,
it's disturbing him. That's healthy because he's sharing with her, uh,
(10:06):
what's going on inside of him and what he's feeling
about her. And she has to be honest with him
and not try to deny it and say, no, he's dead.
I'm not, you know. No, but but to say to him,
you know, to be honest with you, I am struggling.
I guess I'm still feeling some of the pain, you know,
of the loss of all of that. I want to
go on. I mean, I love you, and I want
(10:26):
our marriage to be what God designed it to be.
So just, you know, help me, be patient with me
and let's talk about it. Let's work our way through this.
Because really, the primary way of working through grief is
to talk about it. The worst thing she can do
is to deny it or to try to hide it
and say, well, no, I'm not having thoughts of my husband,
my former husband, because she is. And you can't build
(10:50):
a relationship on deception. So she needs to be honest
with him. He needs to be honest with her. And
together they need to process the grief of the death
of her former husband.
S8 (11:00):
And in one sense, there's a positive in here that
she had a good relationship with her husband who was killed,
and that she's not coming from a a terrible marriage,
that she's trying to get over all of this hurt.
There was something good there. And so in one sense,
that can be comforting to the new spouse coming in
(11:21):
to say, I want to be as good, if not better,
a husband than your first.
S2 (11:26):
There is a positive there, Chris. There's also a downside
to that. And that is she may compare her new
husband with her former husband in particular areas of life.
And in her mind, she's saying, you know, my former
husband would never have done that. he would have been
more thoughtful than that. And so that's what she must guard,
because no two men are alike. You know, men can
(11:46):
be good men, good husbands, but they're not going to
be alike. And in some areas, her new husband is
going to be stronger than her former husband. And in
other areas, he's going to be weaker. So she has
to recognize him as a human and not yield to
those comparison, uh, you know, dialogs in her own mind. Otherwise,
she will be unfair to her new husband. So having
(12:07):
said that, there's an upside and a downside to her
having had a good marriage in the first marriage. But
I think it's far better that her marriage was good,
because she has a model of what a good marriage
is all about. When we come out of a poor marriage,
we don't have the model. So it's much easier to
if we've got a good model in front of us.
S10 (12:27):
First of all, thank you that the Savories are back
in the biz. I know that Chris is on MBI,
and it's nice to have Andrea back because I remember
both of them from the old midday connections. As a
broadcaster on a secular radio station, it's exciting to have
those two people back on the airwaves. And Doctor Chapman,
(12:49):
you were in Youngstown several years ago. I came to
see you and what an outstanding night it was. Just
a words of encouragement. Keep up the good work. Bless
you guys. Good to have you back. God bless. Bye bye.
S1 (13:02):
Hey.
S2 (13:03):
That's the kind of call we like to hear. Welcome back. Andrea.
S8 (13:07):
Yeah, I'd like to thank my brother for calling in. Jim,
this is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.
S7 (13:16):
You're hearing calls that came into our listener line at 1866424. Gary,
if you'd like to suggest a topic for a consideration,
give some feedback about Gary's ministry in your life, or
you just want to try and make us laugh like
that did call that number 1866424 Gary.
S8 (13:34):
Well, we're presenting our first Dear Gary program today. Responses
to your calls over the past few weeks. And let's
get back to the phone and hear our next caller.
S4 (13:45):
Yes, I would like to know if he could maybe
take the subject of getting your husband to open up.
My husband is very close. He doesn't share any of
his feelings with me and he doesn't. We've been married
29 years and it's just like, I mean, I share everything,
I'm bubbly and everything, and he's just very withdrawn. And
I'm just wondering if maybe you could explain how you
could get him to share.
S2 (14:06):
How many times have I heard that one? The wife
is talkative, the husband's quiet. You know, I wish I
knew what was going on inside of him.
S8 (14:14):
Well, here's the other thing, Gary. They've been married 29 years.
S2 (14:17):
29 years. Yeah, I think they could give us some advice.
S7 (14:21):
Well, it shows it doesn't just go away now, does it?
S2 (14:24):
No it doesn't. You know, in my seminars, I talk
about two kinds of people when it comes to talking.
One is the Dead Sea. That's the person who can
receive lots of things in life, but they don't have
any compulsion to share. They have this large reservoir where
they store all of that. And the other type is
what I call the babbling brook. Whatever comes in the
(14:44):
eye gate or the ear gate comes out the mouth gate.
And apparently she's a babbling brook and he's a dead sea.
And maybe she's an extreme babbling brook, and he's an
extreme Dead Sea. That's possible. In fact, that sounds like
the case because she said of herself, I'm bubbly and
always talking. So what I would say is this. He
will never talk more until she talks less. A dead
(15:08):
sea will never come into a river of flowing words.
If you want a Dead sea to talk more, you
have to leave little pools of silence. And the best
place to leave your little pools of silence is right
after your questions. You see the problem with babbling brooks sometimes,
especially what I call super babbling brooks. They will ask
(15:31):
you a question, and if you don't give him an
immediate answer, they'll answer their own question. They'll even tell
you what you think you know. They'll ask you, what
do you think about this? And if you don't answer,
they'll say, well, I know what you think you know.
And so the Dead Sea is saying inside, you know,
no need for me to talk. I mean, she can
ask the questions and give the answers. I don't need
to say anything. And this is hard, because if a
(15:53):
person is a super babbling brook, they've been doing that
all their lifetime. It's natural for them.
S7 (15:59):
Well, and it comes out with other in social relationships too.
You can practice there being quieter because you can see
it in couples. Well, I can see myself in this.
You just fill the silences all the time, even in
social settings.
S2 (16:12):
Yes. That's correct. You know, it'd be interesting to know
if her husband talks more freely around other people when
she's not there. I reason I bring that up. My
wife and I were visiting a widow some time ago,
and in the course of our conversation, her husband had
been dead about a month, and we just went by
to see her and she said, you know, my husband
(16:32):
was a very quiet man. He just didn't talk much.
But he was a very good man. And she went
on to tell about his good qualities. Well, when my
wife and I got back in the car, I said
to her, do you think she's talking about the man
we knew? Because the man we knew talked freely, you know,
in social settings. When he would be by himself, he
would just talk. He would joke. He was. I mean,
he was a, you know, very outgoing guy. And then
(16:54):
we both smiled because we knew what the problem was.
At home, he never got a chance to talk. She
filled up all the spaces. I mean, she was the
night we visited her, we said very little. She just
talked and talked and talked and talked and talked. So consequently,
he had learned that he didn't need to talk at home.
So he talked when he was around other people.
S7 (17:14):
So what would you say to the, let's say, the
husband listening? Who knows? Who knows? That's my wife. She talks.
She fills all those silences. Is there something he could do, though,
to help?
S2 (17:25):
Or if she complains to him, if she says such
things as I wish you'd talk more. I don't ever
know what you're thinking. Then he can take that, that
she has the desire for him to share more of himself.
So he could then say to her, you know, honey,
obviously I'm not the talker that you are, but I
(17:45):
would be willing to talk more if you would give
me a chance. So the next time you ask me
a question, just give me a little silence. Give me.
Give me a moment to think about what I want
to say, and I'll answer your question. But when you
ask the question and then you give the answer, I'm
not motivated to think about what I want to say.
(18:07):
So I'm willing to work with you. I'm willing to
to to share more than I've been sharing. I know
I hear what you're saying, and I'd like to share
more with you, but we're going to have to change
the pattern because I can't just give you an immediate answer.
I have to think about what I'm going to say.
So give me a little time and I'll try to
do that. He's being very open and very honest.
S8 (18:28):
And if those opposites which normally attract, you're probably going
to have one person that is a little more verbal
than the other. But I even see it in the
relationship I have with Andrea. I can talk all day
long about the Super Bowl and about, you know, how
the Rockies did in the World Series and all that,
all this other stuff that really freely. But when you
get down to the depths of my feeling, it takes
(18:49):
a lot of effort to kind of drag that out.
And so maybe what she's asking for is not necessarily
for him to talk more. It's to talk more substantively
about what's deep down inside.
S2 (19:02):
And most likely that's the case. He probably talks about
the logistics of life with her, but he doesn't share
what his thoughts and feelings are about issues that she
is interested in. So I think you're exactly right. So,
you know, you do have these dynamics of of our personality,
the Dead Sea and the babbling brook. But there are
other reasons why a husband may not be talking. Or
(19:24):
sometimes it's a wife who doesn't talk. Sometimes they have
tried to share their thoughts in the past, and when
they did, they were condemned. Their spouse came across as saying, well,
that's stupid. I mean, why would you think that? That
doesn't make any sense at all. Well, you say that
a few times, and the next time the spouse is
not going to say anything because none of us like
(19:46):
to be put down. You like to be clobbered. So
you need to also look back and ask yourself, how
have I responded when my spouse did share an idea?
Did share one of their thoughts or feelings? How did
I respond? You may be shutting down the communication that
you deeply are longing for.
S7 (20:06):
Well, there were some really great questions on our listener line.
If you don't hear your call, it's not because it's
wasn't important. We listen to each one and have struggled
to present some representative listeners. So up next, a positive
story about the results of Gary's ministry.
S11 (20:21):
I'm a Christian counselor, have utilized Utilize the Five Love
Languages book for a number of years. One of the
most memorable experiences I had implementing it was when just
one man came in without his spouse reporting that basically
she was fed up, had given up. She was just,
I think, solidifying the plans for getting out. She refused
(20:44):
to come in to counseling with him. As we talked
and I introduced the five love languages, I gave him
an assignment to go home and ask his wife, what
is one thing I can do that would show you
I love you? Apparently, she responded in what I took
to be probably a rather sarcastic tone and was telling him,
(21:04):
do the dishes every night. Well, I told him to
do his assignment, come back in a couple of weeks.
When he did, he was just amazed. He said, I
don't know what happened. She's not the same woman. He said.
She's smiling at me. We're having a sexual relationship again.
She's no longer talking about leaving. He said it's like
night and day. And he said all I did was
(21:26):
do the dishes. He couldn't believe that doing one simple
thing made such a huge difference. I have actually shared
that example with other couples too, because sometimes I think
they underestimate the power of using or expressing love to
their mate in their preferred language.
S2 (21:43):
I am so encouraged when I hear counselors share stories
like that, and I hear it a lot. I'm encouraged.
First of all, that counselors are using the concept in
trying to help people. And over and over again, counselors
say to me, you know, it's amazing how quickly a
marriage can turn around when one individual starts loving the
(22:04):
other person in the right love language. You know, for
something so simple, uh, Chris and Andrea, it's amazing the
emotional difference it makes in a couple. This wife's language
is obviously was acts of service. And one of the
things that she really appreciated was him washing the dishes.
So when he asked the question and then responded to
(22:26):
her answer, it communicated deeply to her that he really
does love me. And she responded positively to him.
S7 (22:34):
Whether it makes sense or not, to him. And that's
what he got past, obviously.
S2 (22:39):
Yeah. That's right. You know, I had a man say
to me some time ago, he said, you know, Gary,
if someone had told me that my taking out garbage
every day would make my wife feel loved, I would
have taken out the garbage, he said. But, you know,
nobody told me that. So what he was saying was,
you know, if I had known this concept earlier, I
would have been using it. And I think that's true
(22:59):
of many couples. In fact, I've had people say to me,
you know, why didn't I think of this earlier? It's
so simple. And the reality is, it is simple. Uh,
not always easy to do because sometimes, you know, we're
not highly motivated to take out the garbage. But if
we realize that it makes our spouse feel loved, then
we have the motivation, the Motivation. The results when what
(23:20):
we want is for them to feel loved.
S8 (23:23):
And we're not saying that if you have a troubled marriage,
all you have to do is one little thing to
fix it. But this will help you show that love
that you want so desperately to show to that other person.
S2 (23:35):
Yeah, you get on the right track when you discover
their love language and it's not doing one thing. It
may be a number of things. For example, acts of service.
I mean, there are many acts of service, you know,
washing dishes and and taking out garbage. Yes, but vacuuming floors,
you know, uh, changing the baby's diaper, walking the dog,
mowing the grass, I mean, all kinds of things. And
(23:55):
any one of those things will likely speak loudly to
your spouse. But I say, you know better to ask
your spouse what would be most meaningful to you. Because
even if it's an act of service, you may be
doing one thing and they would prefer you'd be doing
something else, so you may as well spend your energy
doing something that's going to be meaningful to your spouse.
S1 (24:16):
You're listening to a best of building relationships with Doctor
Gary Chapman from almost 18 years ago. This was our
very first Dear Gary broadcast from November of 2007. Yes,
our voices might sound a little younger, but Gary's wisdom
is the constant here, and so is our featured resource,
(24:37):
the Five Love Languages. You can find out more at
five Love Languages. Again, go to five Love languages.com.
S8 (24:47):
Let's deal with singles issues in this segment, Gary. And
here's our first caller.
S12 (24:53):
I'm 20 years old, a college student, and I actually
I've just been wondering. My family ties at home are
not as strong, and I'm just kind of in fear
of having, um, strong my own strong family and, like,
ties with my husband in the future. And just, I mean,
I don't even have a boyfriend yet, but I just,
(25:13):
I feel like since I don't have strong family ties
at home, or how my relationships at home aren't what
I want them to be, I just feel like I
would likely have trouble making my own way and new
relationships in the future.
S2 (25:29):
I am so encouraged that a 20 year old would
be asking that question.
S8 (25:34):
Isn't that great?
S2 (25:35):
Yeah, because it says, you know, they're thinking they're looking
back at their family. They're realizing there were some flaws
in the quality of the relationship and the family. They're
looking ahead and they're thinking about, you know, I don't
want to have what I came out of. How can
this be different? And the good news is that when
a person is that open and that insightful, there's hope
(25:58):
and there's help. The reality is skills in marriage and
family life, the things that make marriage and family work
can be learned. That's why we have so many books
on marriage and family. That's why we have marriage seminars,
parenting seminars, all these things. Because we know that if
people can get the right information and develop the right skills,
(26:19):
then they can overcome a lot of baggage from the
past when they try to build their marriage and their family.
So I would just say to this young lady, you know,
read some good books, take a course. If you're in college,
take a course on marriage and family. If there's one
offered from time to time, you know, go to workshops
and classes that may be offered at your church. Even
(26:39):
though you're not married, you can still learn what what
makes marriage work. The more you can learn, even before
you get a boyfriend, the better off you're going to be,
and the more likely you are to not duplicate what
you came out of.
S7 (26:53):
And there's no easy road for anybody, even the best
of family circumstances. You're still going to have a road ahead.
S2 (27:00):
Yes. You know, you can grow up in a good
family and get married and wonder. Wait a minute. I
didn't think this was the way it's supposed to work.
I remember my own son said to me, he didn't
get married until he's 34. And he said to me,
after the first year of marriage, hey, dad, you didn't
tell me it was going to be this hard the
first year. You know, he had he had seen our
marriage and and, you know, he was a good family
(27:22):
and he grew up and he was happy. And he
thought he was going to get married and have a
marriage just like ours. But of course, he knew, because
we had told him that the first several years for
us were rough as well. Uh, but you can, you know,
you're going to find some difficulty in a marriage relationship,
even if you came out of a good family. But
if you have the concepts of of acceptance of the
other person and learning how to negotiate the differences and
(27:46):
learning how to resolve conflicts by listening to each other
and and affirming each other, those kind of skills will
go a long ways in helping you have a good marriage,
whatever the background.
S8 (27:56):
Well, let's go from a 20 year old to a
little bit different age range.
S6 (28:02):
Oh, hi. I just have a subject to discuss. It's, um,
older singles, um, that are a couple or in a
relationship for several months, but because of prior relationships, prior marriages,
they're hesitant about marriage but still have a chemistry going
(28:25):
on and know that physical relationship is wrong. So what
do you do? Get married even though you don't feel
you're ready? Break up. What do you do?
S2 (28:37):
Good question. And there's thousands of older singles who are
in that situation. You know, we have attraction, natural attraction,
men for women. And even if we're Christians and we
had a bad marriage, or maybe a spouse is dead
and we're single again, and so we start dating. But
because of all the background and all the baggage, we're
(29:00):
not ready to jump into another marriage. And yet we
have these desires physically for each other. So what are
we going to do about that? And what I would
say is, certainly you don't get married just because you're
struggling with your your physical desires. That's not a foundation
for getting married. Secondly, I don't think you break up.
(29:21):
There's nothing really to be gained by that, because what
happens is you'll find yourself getting involved in another relationship.
I think what you have to do is to be
open and honest about the nature of your relationship. You see,
if one of you is anticipating marriage to this person
and the other has already decided, you know, I'm not
going to get married, at least not for the time being.
(29:44):
And you don't know that? Then you can find a
lot of hurt and a lot of frustration. But if
both of you sit down and say, let's just share
with each other where we are, what are you thinking?
What are you feeling? And be open about how you
feel about the other person, but also what guidelines you
have where you think this relationship might go. What timeline
(30:04):
are you thinking about? Or maybe you're not even thinking
about marriage at all. Anytime. So opening up and sharing
with each other your honest thoughts and your honest feelings,
and together deciding whether the relationship should continue or whether
relationship should simply stop. But the two of you, if
you're honest, can come. And if you're looking to God
(30:26):
for direction, you can come to a good conclusion.
S8 (30:29):
Just one more observation. It seems to me that that
from that call. And I'm so glad she left that
message that there is this hormonal, this sexual drive that
is kind of clouding the issue, much like happens with
teenagers who believe I'm in love. I'm in love, and
they really have that physical attraction, but not a whole
lot else going on for that relationship. Aren't those two
(30:52):
kind of similar, even though they're such disparate ages?
S2 (30:55):
I think they are similar because, Chris, you know, when
you're in a dating relationship and especially if you have
those those feelings of love, which I call the tingles,
you know, we get into this real high, euphoric, warm
feelings for each other and then the sexual, you know,
feelings enter into that. It can be a very volatile
situation and we know it is for teenagers. I mean,
(31:17):
we have lots of teenagers who never intended to get pregnant,
but they get involved sexually. And before they know what
happens there, the girl is pregnant. So the same thing
happens whether you're 45 or whether you're 20 or whether
you're 55. I've seen single adults, you know, 45, 55,
who are just as giddy as a 13 year, 14,
(31:39):
16 year old. And the dangers are just as great
at that point as they are when we're earlier. So,
you know, we have to have guidelines that to me,
this is the key issue, have guidelines on our sexual behavior.
It's fine to admit that we're sexual not trying to
deny our sexual desires, but we we have to follow
(31:59):
biblical patterns, and we have to have guidelines that help
us be true to our convictions.
S7 (32:06):
There's one more issue we want to tackle, and here's
a caller with that subject.
S13 (32:10):
Hello, my name is Linda. I'm 44 years old, divorced,
two little kids. I'm dating a man that I met
through a website and things are going well, although it
is a long distance relationship. But one thing happens when
we're together that concerns me. This man has been divorced
for only one year. What concerns me about that is
(32:32):
whenever we're having a discussion about something, um, that involves
our relationship and how we're communicating, he brings up the
fact that her filter that she used to hear him
included her perception that he was controlling and manipulative. Um,
I don't see it that way. He's a very strong personality.
(32:54):
He has his own ideas about things, and there's no
gray areas with him. It's all black and white, and
I understand that. Um, but every time he brings her up,
which happens probably every time we're together, it's with such
strong emotion, such anger and hurt. I'm just wondering if
maybe this is too soon for him. Or am I
(33:15):
assuming it's too soon? I'm not sure how to interpret
what I'm getting from him as far as his communication
with me about his ex-wife.
S2 (33:24):
I think it is too soon. You know, I said
earlier in the program that research indicates that it takes
two years after a divorce for a person to get
back on level ground emotionally. And the most common mistake
people make is they get involved with someone else too early.
They're still going through processing the pain and the hurt
(33:47):
of that divorce that they went through, or sometimes the
death of a spouse. And they get involved with someone else.
It meets needs for them. Yes, it helps alleviate the
loneliness and the hurt, but it's too soon for them
to be getting involved in a in a in a
serious dating relationship. So to me, that would be a
red flag waving. The other thing I would say in
(34:08):
this particular case is if you're going to continue to
see each other, I suggest that you have a personality profile.
You're the fellow you're dating as well as yourself, and
let's see what the patterns are in his personality. If
his first wife saw him as controlling, and I hear
you saying that he's very certain of himself, it's black
(34:31):
and white. His first wife may have been right. He
may be a controller. And you need to face that clearly.
So I'd say go to a Christian counselor and just say,
you know, we'd like to have a personality profile to
help us understand what the points of conflict might be
in our relationship. Uh, I wouldn't go. I wouldn't go
very far without doing that. I mean, to me, that's
(34:53):
just simply common sense. And you're being very honest and
open with each other about your personality patterns, but I
do think it's too early. And, uh, you know, lots
of people do meet on the internet these days. But
to be honest with you, and I mean, if it's
if there's a filtering, if it's one of the programs
where they have filtering patterns and, and help you find
(35:13):
someone that is more similar to you and beliefs and
those kind of things, that's one thing that can be helpful. Uh,
but if it's just simply someone you met on the internet,
a lot of red flags there, you ought to do
a lot of excavation to make sure that what you
think is true about this person really is true about
the person.
S8 (35:33):
This is building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman and our
special Dear Gary Edition. I think this is something we
ought to do regularly.
S7 (35:40):
I do too, as long as listeners have questions and
concerns and feedback they'd like to give, we will schedule
these types of broadcasts. Our phone number is 1866424. Gary,
we would love to have your question and include you
on a future broadcast. one 866 424.
S8 (35:59):
Gary, let's get back to the calls. Gary, this is
one of those that is so personal. And yet I
think it will strike a chord with you and with
a lot of people.
S5 (36:08):
I had got into a relationship with an adulterous woman
that went on for four years. I've been a Christian
since 1985, and the shame and guilt just got to me.
And I still love her, still miss her, but I
know that I had to get away from it. And
I thought to myself, I really came to this revelation
that if I really do love this woman, that I
(36:29):
would let her go and not be selfish anymore and
try to hold on to her. But I would let
her go because she has children and a husband and
a home, and I feel really good about that decision
that I made.
S2 (36:43):
Wow. I wish we had more of those kind of
calls of guys who realize in the middle of the
stream that they're doing wrong and they're going to hurt themselves.
They're going to hurt someone else, they're going to hurt
some children. and in spite of their feelings of love,
which is what I heard him say, I'm still loving her.
I still miss her in spite of those feelings. They
(37:04):
choose to do what is right. It's very difficult because
you see in the theme in our society is God
wants me to be happy. And so I'm not happy
in my marriage, but I'm happy with this woman. And
so even Christians make very poor decisions and break up
their own marriage and break up someone else's marriage in
order to be happy. The reality is, those feelings only
(37:26):
last for a time and they come down off the high. Now,
you know, he said they had been carrying on this
affair for four years. When it's a secretive affair, the
emotions tend to last longer. The average national level is
that after two years of the the strong emotional feelings,
you come down off the high. But if it's a
(37:47):
secretive affair, those feelings can go on for a longer
period of time. And in the middle of those feelings,
when he's still feeling those positive vibes for her. He
recognizes that what he's doing is wrong and he makes
the choice to break it off. I wish other men
and women could hear that and understand the reality of that.
(38:07):
It's not easy to break off an affair, but it's
right to break off an affair. And to be very
honest with you. Chris and Andrea, I've never met anyone
who regretted doing right, but they are in my office
and other counselors offices every week. Who did wrong? Five
years ago, left their spouse, ran off with the person
(38:28):
they were having an affair with, and now they've come
down off the high, and now they're trying to get
counseling in that second or third marriage. Don't misunderstand me.
I'm glad they're trying to get help, but it would
have been a whole lot easier if they'd gotten help
back upstream. I just wish that more Christians could understand
that happiness is not God's goal for us. God's goal
(38:52):
for us is that we follow his teachings and that
in following his teachings, we will always be the better
and our families will always be better when we follow
God's teachings and when we violate those teachings, I don't
care how we feel or how happy we may be
for a while. We're going to cause problems for ourselves
and all the people around us.
S8 (39:13):
Well, our final call is one of those that probably
represents a lot of hurting people.
S14 (39:19):
My husband and I are on the verge of divorce.
I've read your book, The Five Love Languages and so
has he, but it seems like we still can't get
it together and we're still fighting. So I wondered if
you had any ideas. Um, I don't know. We don't
take responsibility, maybe for what we've done or what's happened
in our relationship. Do you have any ideas? It just
(39:40):
seems like it's going nowhere. And I don't think either
one of us want a divorce, but we can't live
the way we were.
S2 (39:46):
If you don't get help from reading a book, then
go for counseling. That's what counselors are all about. That's
what pastors are all about. That is those pastors who
do counseling. Uh, we're here to help people. And you
don't have any problems that other people haven't had similar problems.
And so you may as well reach out and ask someone,
you know, look, here's where we are. We're Christians. We
(40:08):
don't want a divorce, but we're we're miserable. So help
us and you can find help. There's no reason that
you need to go to divorce, and no reason you
need to continue living with a level of stress that
you're talking about. There are answers, and Christian counselors and
pastors can help you discover those answers. So I would
just really encourage people who are in those kind of
(40:28):
marriages to reach out for help. I'm amazed at how
many people come to the point of divorce. I'm talking
about Christians come to the point of divorce, and they've
never reached out for counseling. They say, well, I went
to a marriage seminar once, or I went to a
weekend retreat, or I read a book and, you know,
but this is serious stuff. You need the best help
you can get. And the wonderful news is that all
(40:51):
over America, there are Christian counselors in every major city
in the country, and you can find help. So I
would just encourage you to reach out. Don't give up
on the marriage, and don't lock yourself into a life
of misery. Reach out and find help. There's help available.
S7 (41:06):
Give a word of hope, and maybe you can use
a specific couple that you've seen. Or just generally speaking,
I mean, you've seen many couples who didn't think they
could make it.
S2 (41:16):
Who have many of the couples that come into my
office come at the point of giving up? In fact,
most of them are desperate. That's why they come. And
what I say to them at the very beginning, I
understand you don't have any hope, but I have hope
for you. So believe in my hope, and let's try
some things. And one by one, we begin to tackle
(41:36):
the issues that have driven them apart. The issues they've
never resolved. And as they begin to listen to each other,
which is a big factor. Most couples don't know how
to listen to each other. They listen long enough to
give their opinion and they end up arguing. And you
don't win anything by arguing. And so teaching them how
to listen to each other empathetically, to understand what's going
(41:57):
on inside the other person and then have a proper
response to it. And when couples begin to get the
thrill of being heard and being understood and solving conflicts,
they don't have to take but 3 or 4 steps
in the right direction, and they begin to feel better
about themselves. That's why, you know, because of my own experience,
(42:17):
I'm so positive on encouraging couples to reach out for help.
S8 (42:22):
And it can get messy. It can get ugly. There
can be cross words said. And it you know, a
lot of people really shy away from that. I think,
you know, marriage ought to be always being happy and
never raising your voice. But that's not reality. And if
you get past that and get past all of the
ugly stuff that it can can bring up, there's hope
(42:42):
on the other side of that.
S2 (42:44):
There is. And, you know, one of the reasons Chris
and Andrew and you know this about me, but one
of the reasons I have so much hope for people
is because of my own experience. And Carolyn and I
went through so many years in those early times in
our marriage in which we just struggled and we didn't
seem like we were getting anywhere. And we argued and
we put each other down and we withdrew from each other.
So I know, I know those struggles, I know that pain.
(43:06):
And that's why I identify with people so well who
are in that situation. But I also know that there
are answers. And God gave us those answers and brought
us through that, and he can bring other couples through that.
I'm grateful that people are being honest about their struggle
because that's the first step. And then once you're honest,
then you reach out and try to find help.
S7 (43:28):
Well, we want to thank all of you who contributed
to our program today, and that's why we're here to help.
And if you would like to be a part of
our program future program, call one 866 424. Gary. That
is our listener line. If you'd like to go to
our website and email us. The website is five Love Languages.
That's five love languages.com.
S8 (43:50):
What do you think, Gary? Do you like being dear
Gary for a week?
S2 (43:53):
I'm ready to start my column. Chris. Yes.
S8 (43:57):
All right. We'll see you back here next week.
S1 (44:01):
And there you have it. From November of 2007, our
first Dear Gary broadcast. Hope you enjoyed that. Today and
next week it's a summer best of conversation with Doctor
Patrick Morley. Don't miss his hope filled message for men.
Big thank you to our producer, Janice backing and our
engineer and musical aficionado Steve Wick. Building relationships with Doctor
(44:24):
Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association
with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks
for listening.
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