September 20, 2025 • 46 mins
You have hopes and dreams for your family. But the truth is, we’re all broken, dysfunctional people. On this Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author and Bible teacher, Erin Davis looks at the life of an Old Testament family. Things were messy in their interactions. There was deceit and a lot of pain. But God was at work in the middle of the imperfections. Hear the encouragement for your family on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.
Featured resource: THE STORY OF JOSEPH: HOW GOD CAN REDEEM IMPERFECT FAMILIES - AN 8-WEEK BIBLE STUDY
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
If you need help and hope for the brokenness in
your family, don't miss today's Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2 (00:07):
Joseph's choice is a really important one that we make.
Will we continue to let the Lord keep our hearts
soft when hard heartedness feels like the safer option? Even
if we have the will, we need him to empower
the will. But I think Joseph modeled that really beautiful
choice for us.
S1 (00:28):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
author and speaker Aaron Davis reveals how a very dysfunctional
family described in the Old Testament can give hope to
us today. If you go to our website Building Relationships,
you'll see our featured resource, Aaron's book The Story of
(00:50):
Joseph How God can redeem Imperfect Families.
S3 (00:54):
Just go to building relationships. And Gary, I like that
subtitle because no matter how messed up, dysfunctional or imperfect
we might be, God loves to redeem, doesn't he?
S4 (01:06):
Yes, and we are all imperfect, some more imperfect than others.
But we're all imperfect. But God does redeem imperfect families.
And so I thank our discussion today in this book
we're discussing is really going to help a lot of people.
S3 (01:22):
Yeah, I think it's going to be encouraging. So let's
meet our guest, Aaron Davis, writer teacher passionately committed to
getting women of all ages to the deep well of
God's Word. She's written more than a dozen books and
Bible studies, including connected seven Feasts and Fasting and feasting.
Hear her teach on the Deep Well with Aaron Davis podcast.
(01:44):
Her latest book is our featured resource at Building Relationships.
It's titled The Story of Joseph How God can redeem
Imperfect Families. Again, find out more at Building Relationships. Us.
S4 (01:58):
Well, Aaron, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S2 (02:00):
Thank you. I'm so glad to be back.
S4 (02:03):
Now, the last time you were with us, we talked
with you and your husband, Jason, about life size. Boys believe.
And it seems to me that this new book is
going to encourage families not to believe some lies of
the enemy.
S2 (02:17):
Yeah, you picked up on a theme there that I
hadn't picked up on. It's not just boys that believe lies,
and not just boys that the enemy lies to. He
lies to all of us. And the Bible tells us
that he's a deceiver. And it just seems obvious to
me that our families is one area where he wreaks
a tremendous amount of havoc. So whether you're married or
not married, you have kids, you don't have kids no
(02:39):
matter where you are in your family life in this moment, um,
we all need the Lord to show us his truth.
S4 (02:46):
That is for certain. You know, Joseph's family tree is
filled with dysfunction, what we normally call dysfunction. So why
did you decide to write a study using him as
the example of how God works in families?
S2 (03:01):
I guess I could answer that question in one word,
which would be desperation. Isn't that what happens for all
of us? We need answers for our own struggles. And
I have a messy family. I own that in the
Bible study. Uh, but everybody does. And I just needed
some examples from Scripture for somebody's story that doesn't get
tied up in a neat little bow, at least not quickly.
(03:23):
We get these snapshots of people and things get resolved
fairly quickly, but not in Joseph's story. His story covers
about 20 chapters, even more if you go back at
the beginning of his family tree and it is messy,
and I guess misery loves company, I took some comfort
in knowing here's somebody who loved God, and God loved him,
(03:44):
and God used him. And yet his story is not
linear at all. When we look at his family and
neither is mine and God used him anyway, God was
working in spite of the mess, and so I just
found a lot of hope in his very messy story.
S4 (04:00):
Yeah, well, I think a lot of families can identify
because we have a lot of dysfunction. One premise of
the study is that family is God's idea. So where
do you see that in Scripture?
S2 (04:14):
I think sometimes when we read our Bibles, we can
miss things that are really obvious. And this idea is
one of those. I mean, truly beginning in Genesis, we
get that idea. God created the first family. He didn't
create us as humans in cohorts or work groups or classes.
He created Adam and Eve, of course, as a family.
(04:36):
And so the book of Romans tells us we can
learn a lot from God's character by observing creation. And
so I think we can observe it a lot from
just that Genesis account. But it doesn't end there when
you read your Bible, family is everywhere. There are so
many genealogies in Scripture, and we know not a word
is wasted in the word, so it's worth asking, what
(04:57):
is that about? Why are all these families recognized and
noted and the family never goes away? In all of
the human experience, God doesn't say, after the flood go, whoops,
the family was a bad idea. That didn't work out well.
Let's try a different model. Um, and even when we
get into the New Testament, we get this new idea
of family, which is that we have been adopted as
(05:19):
heirs into the family of God, which blows my mind,
but is right there in Scripture. So it's true. And
so that family language persists even unto revelation, where we're
we're with the marriage supper of the lamb, and all
of history culminates in a wedding. That's family language too.
So it really is from the first pages of the
(05:39):
Bible to the last pages of the Bible. Of course,
the Bible is about God. It's it's not primarily about family,
but God uses family language, and he uses families throughout
his whole redemptive story.
S4 (05:51):
Yeah, that is for sure. You know, and I think
all of us recognize that as goes the family, so
goes the larger culture. So.
S2 (05:59):
Amen.
S4 (06:00):
How are family is a fundamental building block for human flourishing.
S2 (06:05):
Well, this has been your life work, Doctor Chapman. And
you championed this so well. And the reason is for
what you just said, that when this building block crumbles
and we're seeing this in our world, uh, it has
catastrophic results. But that was God's plan is that he
would build human flourishing on the family. I'll take us
(06:25):
back to Genesis again. What's the first command? Be fruitful
and multiply. Who did he give it to? The first family.
And so it was his intent that Adam and Eve,
in a marriage, through the birth of their children and
cultivating the world that he's made, that flourishing would come
out of that. And we can also know from what
we observe, which is that when families disintegrate, society does
(06:48):
not flourish. We know this. Uh, when there's fatherlessness in
the home, when marriage is fracture, when children are leaving
the covering of their parents too soon. Things fall apart
well beyond just the home. It impacts industry and church
life and all kinds of things. So God designed family
to be really an epicenter for human flourishing.
S4 (07:10):
How does the Bible define family? Can you give us
a working definition?
S2 (07:15):
I can, there's not a like turn to Ecclesiastes three
and there's the definition for you. But if we look
at the whole of Scripture, here's a working definition that
I think is true to God's intent. That family is
an institution designed by God to reveal who he is
and to subdue and cultivate the world that he has
(07:36):
made and all that's important. You know, we are in
a anti-institution age. I heard somebody say recently, we're in
a trust recession and man, isn't that true? So we
kind of stiff arm the idea of institutions. But institutions
are just an organism, a mechanism for human flourishing. And
God created this one. It was his design. And again,
(07:57):
I take us back to that be fruitful and multiply
command that he gave in Scripture. Uh, that is through
families that we would subdue his world.
S4 (08:05):
Give us that one more time, that working definition.
S2 (08:08):
Sure. Family is an institution designed by God to reveal
who he is and to subdue and cultivate the world
he has made.
S4 (08:17):
So in the light of that, you say that God
is a generational God. What does that mean?
S2 (08:22):
I would say that is one of the most profound
lessons that I learned from the story of Joseph, which
is that God is working generationally. All we know is
our moment in time. We might know our grandparents and
our parents. We might, if we're fortunate, have access to
four generations in our family, though unlikely. But God has
all of eternity in mind and all of human history
(08:45):
in mind. And what we see in Joseph's story is
that things God was doing in Abraham's life bore fruit
in Joseph's life. Things that were God was doing in
Isaac's life bore fruit in Joseph's life, and things God
was doing in Joseph's life, bore fruit many, many generations
down the road. And so he cares about the generations
from generation to generation. I am God, he says in
(09:08):
his word. He talks about generational blessings and generational cursings
in his word. Um, but for me, it's just thinking
of the baton of faith and hope and goodness, all
the things God gives us being passed from one generation
to the next, and that God has a much bigger,
much longer plan because he's working through all the generations
of my family.
S3 (09:29):
Aaron, you mentioned in that first segment that this story
of Joseph is not linear, and it's kind of messy
and how we want the bow, everything tied up well,
neatly and wrapped, kind of a a hallmark story, you know,
for our lives. And God doesn't seem as interested in
giving us that as he is bringing us through the
(09:54):
hard stuff. Can you talk about that?
S2 (09:57):
Yeah, that was another just aha moment for me in
Joseph's story, which was realizing I wanted God to eliminate
the messes from my family. And I think that's a
human and understandable impulse. I won't go into all the
details of my family, because I want to honor those
people that are in my family. But there's some long
term estrangements. There's some deep pain that it just seems
(10:21):
like God could snap his fingers and take it away.
And he hasn't. And what Joseph's story tells us is
that often God works in the midst of the mess,
not just in spite of it. I would think, like God,
if he would just remove these barriers. Then we could
really see you work that that would be the evidence
of you working. But it was really through many of
the struggles of Joseph's family that Joseph became, became the
(10:45):
man God needed him to be for the mission that
God had for Joseph. And so, yeah, the messiness didn't
all fall away. Joseph's story kind of ends with a
happy ending. Um, but it doesn't end with everything working
out just the way that I would have written it
if I were writing the story. But God was at
work in the whole thing.
S4 (11:05):
Well, some of our listeners are familiar with the life
of Joseph. Others of our listeners are not. So let's
get an overview of the sweep of this whole story,
because it's pretty complex. Can you boil down Joseph's story
for us?
S2 (11:18):
It is pretty complex, and I want to revert to
my Sunday school self and start singing Father Abraham, because
I think that's the right place to start it. And
the Bible often refers to God as God, the God
of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But we could tack Joseph
on right after that. So Abraham and Sarah were married,
and they had Isaac, their son of promise. Isaac married Rebecca,
(11:42):
and they had sons. Uh, that's a really messy spot there.
Sons Jacob and Esau. And Jacob was Joseph's father. But
that was like the quickest pass possible. Uh, Joseph's mom
was Rachel, and she was only one of multiple wives
that Joseph's dad had. So just in that quick summary,
(12:05):
we get couples that had tension in their marriage. We
get fighting between brothers. And I'm talking about big time fighting.
That leads with one brother leaving the family. We now
call this going no contact. It's not a new phenomenon.
It happened way back. Uh, in Joseph's story, we get
sisters who literally fought for, uh, sexual time with their husband. Uh,
(12:30):
what's yucky? And it's in there. And then we get Joseph.
And Joseph was one of 12 brothers. Others, and those
relationships were highly contentious. The Bible makes it clear that
Joseph and baby brother Benjamin were the favorites of their dad,
because they were the only sons of Rachel, and their
dad didn't try to hide it. He gave them favor,
(12:52):
he paraded his favor, and the brothers hated Joseph for it.
In fact, they threw him in a pit right before
they sold him to slave traders. So, uh, that it
was messy all along the way. Lots of infighting, lots
of hurt, lots of bitterness, lots of unforgiveness, lots of hatred. Uh,
and a lot of those themes are present in our
(13:13):
family still.
S4 (13:14):
So. So how does Joseph's story, then give hope for
dysfunctional and painful parts of our families?
S2 (13:21):
Well, for all of us, the bottom line is this,
which is that our stories are not ultimately about us.
Our stories are about God and what he's doing. And
it does become a story of redemption. There's this famous
line in Genesis 50 where Joseph looks at the faces
of his brothers who had done so much harm to him.
And he says to them, what you intended for evil,
(13:43):
God used for good that many would be saved. And
I believe that's the gospel right there in Genesis 50.
What the enemy intended for evil in the garden God
has redeemed and used for good. And Jesus came that
many would be saved. And so the story is that, yeah,
we are broken and sinful, and we hurt each other deeply,
and we're hurt deeply, and some of those wounds we're
(14:06):
going to take with us until we're with Jesus. But
he's always working things for our good and his glory,
and he's promised he's going to make all things new,
even our broken families.
S4 (14:18):
One of your studies is entitled don't Skip the baguettes.
So and so baguettes so and so and so and
so baguettes so and so. As a matter of fact,
I've just been reading through Second Chronicles, and it's filled
with those Genealogies. So what do we miss if we
skip over these names? And I have to be honest,
(14:38):
as I was reading it, I did skip over some
of it.
S2 (14:41):
Many of many. I read the Bible in a year
program has been derailed by the genealogies, I get it.
But we know that all Scripture is God breathed and
it's all useful for instruction. We get that from the
New Testament, and we know that it is the perfect,
infallible Word of God. And so we can just come
to those genealogies and know, okay, the Holy Spirit inspired
(15:04):
the writers to write these names down and preserve these
names for me all this time, that I may gain
wisdom and knowledge of God. And so there are so
many lessons to be learned from the begets. But one
of them is that generational God thing that we talked
about before. I mean, here's these names. Many of them
feel old fashioned and are hard to pronounce. And yet
(15:26):
God was doing something in their lives, and who they
are has been lost to history. We don't know much
about them. We don't know their trades or where they
lived in a lot of cases. But we know that
God used their story. And many of those genealogies, of course,
are pointing to Jesus. And so that's just one way.
But for me, I take a lot of hope in
knowing that God uses ordinary people, um, and that in
(15:48):
the moment they could not have known how their story
was going to unfold. They just knew the tension in
their own marriage or the child that felt difficult to discipline,
or the sister in law that didn't understand them. I'm
just pulling those examples from random, but also from my life. Um,
but but God knew. God knew what he was going
to do. And I just take so much hope in
(16:10):
knowing that nobody gets lost in God's story. Nobody's inconsequential
in God's story. He, uh, the Bible says that he
keeps our tears in a bottle. That's how attentive he is.
Does he count the hairs on our heads? And so
that's at least one lesson we can take from those genealogies,
which is that he cares about each individual that's made
in his image.
S4 (16:31):
We don't do much of that anymore. You know, most
people don't even know their great grandfather or their, you know,
that sort of thing. So what are the differences between
the cultural messages that we're receiving, you know, about the
purpose of the family and the biblical teaching on the
value and purpose of the family?
S2 (16:50):
I think the primary message the culture sends is that
your family is a means for your happiness. So if
your marriage doesn't make you happy, by all means get out.
If your children are driving you crazy, by all means
go away for the weekend. Away from your kids. Not
that there's a problem with that, but if it's a
constant means of escape than it is. And the Bible
(17:11):
does not give us that message. Our families are meant
to be means where we honor the Lord first and
foremost in all things and by which we're sanctified. So yeah,
marriage is tough and deeply sanctifying. And parenting is tough.
It's the hottest refiner's fire that I've ever been in.
My husband and I have four sons, and I had
(17:33):
no idea how selfish and entitled I was until I
tried to mother them. It's not comfortable, but God is
using family and some of the pain and heartache that
I've inflicted and that's been inflicted upon me. God used
all of that to expose my true condition, which is
that I need him a whole lot. So does my
family make me happy? There's nobody in the world I
(17:55):
want to be around more than my husband, Jason. There's
nobody I adore more than my four children, but they're
not primarily to make me happy. They're to make me
more like Jesus.
S3 (18:04):
We're talking with Aaron Davis today on building relationships with
Doctor Gary Chapman. Go to Building Relationships and you'll see
Aaron's book. It's our featured resource, the story of Joseph,
how God can redeem imperfect families. If you're in one
of those, this study's going to help go to building relationships.
As I was going through the book, Aaron, one of
(18:26):
the things that really encouraged me and in the story
of Joseph, you see it all over the place, the
sovereignty of God, the you know how he planned this
ahead of time. It wasn't happenstance. And yet there are
people who are listening right now who could who would say, well,
God's sovereign, you know, he's going to do what he's
going to do and be kind of fatal about it.
(18:48):
You know, it's like, I don't have any control over this,
but you don't see that in Joseph's story. He had
a his choices mattered, didn't they?
S2 (18:56):
That's right. And that is so mysterious. How can both
be true? But they are. God is absolutely sovereign. The
Bible tells us that the earth is his footstool. So
he is over all things in control of all things.
And yet human choices make a difference. The one that
most comes to mind to me from Joseph's story is
that Joseph had the choice to forgive his brothers, and
(19:18):
he did. Uh, he had at that point all the
power he held, all the cards. He was right hand
man to Pharaoh. They were starving from another country. They
came to him begging. Essentially, they didn't know it was
their brother. And so, uh, he could have done anything there. But, uh,
the Bible tells us how moved he was with compassion
that his heart stayed soft to his brothers, and that
(19:41):
he chose to forgive them. I don't know how the
story would have unfolded if he hadn't. I don't know
if Joseph's story would still be even recorded in Scripture.
Only God knows that. But that's just one time when
Joseph had a choice and he could have made a
different choice. And he makes choices all along the way.
There's another time where he makes a choice in Potiphar's
house that costs him dearly. But God was sovereign over
(20:05):
even that. And so we do have choices. And I
think when it comes to our families, Joseph's choice is
a really important one that we make. Will we continue
to forgive not because our family members deserve it? Often
they don't, but because Christ forgave us and paid such
a high price to forgive us. Will we continue to
let the Lord keep our hearts soft when hard heartedness
(20:27):
feels like the safer option? So many times? And it's
the Spirit's work that does this. Uh, even if we
have the will, we need him to empower the will.
But I think Joseph modeled that really beautiful choice for us.
S4 (20:41):
You know, I think most of us in today's world,
if we would think that our brothers would sell us
into slavery, you know, our attitude would be, I'm going
to make them suffer if I ever get a chance,
you know, and all that sort of thing. And I
think that's just natural. But. And it took time, you know,
in Joseph's life. But through all of that, he must
have been thinking along the lines of God is using this.
(21:03):
He saw God's hand in what happened to him after
that and how God exalted him. And then later he
had the opportunity to return good for evil, which is
what the Bible clearly, clearly says when he, you know,
provided for his family. So yeah, it's a powerful story.
S3 (21:18):
The other thing that hits me, Gary, is the the reality,
the authenticity of the story. Because there's a a place
where Joseph goes out of the room and is overwhelmed
with emotion. He is weeping, and the people you know
who are around him are wondering, what in the world
is going on here? And he is just broken by, uh,
(21:42):
what what has happened with his his brothers as they
come and he recognizes them. And, uh, the depth of that,
that's always encouraged me. That emotion and the struggle is
something to walk through rather than skirt around. What do
you think, Gary?
S4 (21:59):
Well, I think that's exactly right. I think often we
just try to push our emotions down and all that
sort of thing. But, I mean, that was a part
had to be a powerful moment when he realized, these
are my brothers. These are the ones that sold me
into slavery. And they're here asking me, and now I
get a chance to help them. You know, I mean,
it's hard to imagine all the emotions that were there
(22:21):
around the.
S3 (22:22):
The brothers actually lied to their dad too, and made
him think that Joseph was dead.
S2 (22:29):
Yeah, I was thinking of that while you were talking,
that there were many moments of profound emotion in the story.
Reuben has one such moment. Reuben is the oldest brother, and, uh,
I came to really identify with him because many times
I feel like he tried to do the right thing
and things got out of his hand. And so he
had this moment of deep regret when Joseph was sold
(22:51):
into slavery. And you can feel the emotion in the pages.
And then the same thing. You're right. With their dad. Um, first,
when he's told that Joseph was probably devoured by animals,
they bring him this, uh, coat of favor, and they
dipped it in animal blood. And they say we think
he was killed even though they knew he was not.
And their dad has deep grief then. But again, when
(23:11):
they came to Egypt, Joseph said, you can go back,
but you have to leave one of the brothers here.
And they come back and have to tell their dad
again that he's lost a son, at least to captivity.
And the dad has such profound grief that the Bible
tells us he could not be comforted. And so there
are these just moments. And I think you're right, Gary.
(23:32):
You said we're sometimes taught to stuff it or to
gloss over it, and the Bible shows us it's okay
to emote, and that God gave us those emotions. And
in the context of our families, we definitely see that
in Joseph's story.
S4 (23:45):
Yeah. Well, you know, in the book you also talk
about prayer and the value of prayer. How can women
or men, either, for that matter, leave a legacy of
prayer for their family?
S2 (23:57):
Well, I have the gift. You can probably hear a
lump in my throat as I start to tell you
about her. I have the gift of a godly and
praying mom who, right this moment, is laying in a
hospice bed at the end of her life, close to
meeting Jesus face to face, and her legacy is that
she prayed for us. She loved us incredibly well. Uh,
(24:18):
she was such a fun and good mom. But I
can't count the number of times that as a teenager,
I would come home squealing into the driveway right up
to the end of my curfew, racing into the house,
and I would find my mom in the living room
with her Bible open, and she would simply say, oh, Aaron,
I was just praying for you and I look forward
(24:39):
to getting to glory and seeing the fruit of that
in my life. How has my marriage been impacted by
my mom's prayers? Have my children been impacted by my
mom's prayers? How have their children when they have children,
how will they be impacted by their mom's prayers? So
that was an important part of the Bible study for me,
is that one day of each session I walk you
(25:00):
through leaving a legacy of prayer for your family and we.
Sometimes when things are hard in our family life, we
will get to the end of our ropes and then
start to pray. And, um, prayer is powerful and you
can change generations. I believe through your prayers and there's
no magic formula. Uh, but I think if we start
(25:23):
to think generationally as God thinks generationally, I dedicated the
Bible study to my great great granddaughters. Uh, I only
have sons. I have no daughters. But this study of
Joseph started me thinking, how could I impact my great
great grandchildren? Well, I can start praying for them and
praying that they would be dedicated to Jesus and that
(25:44):
they would love the Bible. Now, I don't know. Jesus
may come back before I have great great granddaughters, but
I'm at least thinking about them. So I think praying
with a long game in mind other than Jesus, help
me be patient with my toddler today, which is a
good and honest prayer. But Jesus, help this toddler to
grow into a man who loves you, who stands on
your word, who proclaims your truth to the next generation.
(26:06):
Think bigger and pray bigger and see what God does.
S4 (26:09):
Prayer is God's means of accomplishing things. Just like teaching
and preaching is a means of God. Prayer is a
means of God and everybody has the opportunity to be
a prayer.
S1 (26:25):
You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
He's the author of the New York Times best seller
The Five Love Languages. And when you go to five
love languages, you can take a free assessment of your
love language and see when Gary might be coming to
your area for a seminar. You'll also see the book
by our guest, Aaron Davis. It's titled The Story of
(26:47):
Joseph How God Can Redeem Imperfect Families. Find out more
at five Love Languages. Com.
S4 (26:56):
Aaron, in the study you say that our families are missionaries.
What does that mean?
S2 (27:02):
Yeah, well, a missionary is someone who goes and tells
the good news. And, um, our families have a way
of exposing how much we need. The good news. Uh,
my kids are starting to get much older. I don't
have toddlers anymore, but when I did, I remember feeling
like I was never an angry woman until God gave
me these children. And now I'm angry all the time.
(27:25):
And what God was using my children to expose is
that no, I actually have murder in my heart, as
we all do. And so that could have driven me
in many directions. But by God's grace, it drove me
to the cross to say, God, I need you. And
that can happen in so many ways. Something I'm hearing
(27:45):
often with the women that I minister to, is the
pain of having adult children either leave the faith or
an added layer, leave the faith and cut off their
parents relationship. And that is so painful and I believe
it is an attack by the enemy that's happening, a
concentrated effort right now, but it could make you embittered.
(28:06):
It can make you just wallow in your grief. It
can make you feel helpless. It can make you pace
the floors. And all of those might be stages of it.
Or it can bring you to Jesus. Enrich the point.
At which point you say, Jesus, they were always yours,
and you loved them more than I love them. And
it's your will that none should perish, but that all
should come to everlasting life. And I want them to
(28:27):
come to you even more than I want them to
come to me. In which case, that pain that your
child is inflicting upon your heart, and it's real and
it's deep, but it's a missionary meant to drive you
to Jesus that remind you that the gospel is for
all of us. We all need him. We all need
his redemptive work. And so I've come to see those
pain points, which are many and frequent as opportunities to
(28:51):
a live more deeply surrendered to Jesus and His authority
in my life, and to walk out the gospel, which
is that every person in my family is a sinner,
and I am too. And we all need Jesus very much.
S4 (29:03):
Yeah, your reference to adult children reminds me of a
book I released just recently called Your New Life with
Adult Children and the need we have to stay connected
as long as we can and yet not dominating. You know,
letting them be free as God makes all of us free.
(29:24):
But I like what you said. If they have rebelled
or walked off or doing things that hurt you, pray
for them. Pray for them, pray for them, but love them.
Keep an open arm. Don't write them off because God
doesn't write them off, you know. So that's powerful.
S2 (29:39):
Amen.
S4 (29:40):
There's a section in your study on playing favorites in
the family, and that can be a problem. But there's
also an upside to knowing God's favor. Talk about that.
S2 (29:53):
Yeah, I frequently say this is why we need to
know our whole Bibles, because if we reduce our Bibles
to a soundbite or a social media post, then we
can miss these really beautiful and sometimes more complex truths.
And the complex truth is, God has favorites. So we
know from Scripture that the nation of Israel is his
chosen and favored people, not because they were so good,
(30:16):
they were rascals, but because he chose to favor them
as an example of his love. And of course, he
favors us. He loves us. Does he have favorites in
terms of some are more important than him to others, no.
We know that all people are made in his image
and all loved by him, but I take great hope
(30:37):
in knowing I'm one of his favorites, in that I'm
a beloved daughter of his, adopted into the kingdom, that
he looks at me as an individual and that he
has a plan for me. And so much like he
has a favored nation, uh, I'm among his favorite people,
and he uses that favoritism language in scripture as a
means of expressing his deep and individualistic love. And I'm
(31:00):
so grateful for that.
S4 (31:02):
Yeah. What do the snapshots of Joseph's family teach us
about how God is at work in every family?
S2 (31:11):
Yeah. I mean, will people even know that phrase snapshot?
I know we all have cameras on our phones now.
It's not like a Polaroid anymore, but snapshot is just
a moment in time. And it's tempting because we're finite
to put way too much stock in a single snapshot.
And so maybe your marriage is really tense right now.
(31:33):
Jason and I have certainly lived that. We've been married
24 years. We've had great years and not great years.
And it's tempting in that snapshot to think our marriage
is over. We're not going to make it. It's always
going to be this way. God can't fix what's broken,
but it's just a snapshot. Or I've learned this from parenting.
You can be in a very difficult phase, and you
can feel like, oh no, I've lost this child's attention
(31:56):
or obedience or care, but it's just a snapshot. Uh,
they're part of a they're developing. I say to my
sons a lot. The jury hasn't even started deliberating on
you yet. So we don't know all that God's going
to do. And this is just one moment. It's just
a snapshot and that. Can you carry that out for
so many things? And the study, I looked at a
(32:17):
lot of snapshots from my own family examples like Jason
and I having strained seasons of marriage, uh, our oldest son,
when he was still in utero, they told us he
wasn't going to survive the pregnancy, and if he did,
he'd be severely disabled. And that was just a snapshot for.
So for nine long months, we thought we had a
child that was going to be born and die. And
(32:38):
his name is Elisha, which means God is my salvation,
because that's not what God had in mind for him.
And he's now a thriving 17 year old. But there's
so many of those in our lives that in the
moment we think, oh no, my family is ruined, I've
wrecked it. This can't be redeemed. But that's not who
God is, and that's not how he works. And he
just has such a bigger view in mind.
S4 (33:00):
I remember when our children were in the teenage years.
Especially our son. Our daughter. She could have raised herself.
You know, she was just always compliant. And her son
was totally different. I remember the day my wife had
a frustration turned to me and said, he's your son.
I'm through. But that was a snapshot, you know? The
(33:23):
reality is, with time, they're very, very close. He values
his mother greatly. And but yeah, we can get tied
up in the snapshots. And and that would have been
true for Joseph, I'm sure when he was sold into slavery.
I mean, that was a hard night day or days
for him. But that's a good concept.
S2 (33:42):
It'll be such a gift when we get to heaven
and we see, I don't know how it's all going
to work, but I know that we will be fully
we will know Jesus, even as we've been fully known,
that we'll have perspective that we don't have now. And
it'll be remarkable to see that snapshot from a redemptive lens,
things that right now we think, how could this be good?
How could this be redeemed? And then we'll see. Oh,
(34:06):
God truly never left us or forsook us. And he
was using it all. I can't wait for that.
S3 (34:11):
Well, we come back to the sovereignty thing right there.
It is. You know, this is part of his plan,
even though it's really, really hard to look at some
of life events. As you know, this is part of
the plan. Uh, and we have to be patient with him,
with God who is at work. Right, Aaron?
S2 (34:29):
Yeah. And I want to be careful with that language.
That's true. And then there are things in our family that, um,
are out well, outside of what God would have chosen. Uh,
I come from a divorced home. I know that God
was more grieved by that divorce than I ever will be.
That that's not what he wanted. And we have children
who are abused. That's not what God wants. Um, he
(34:52):
didn't write that into somebody's story with intention. But we
live in a fallen world and there are sinful things
that happen. And so even those things that we know
from Scripture are well outside of what he would have
a part of his perfect plan. He can redeem it.
S4 (35:10):
I think that distinction is really important. You know, it's
not that God causes all the bad things that happen
to us. As you said, we're in a fallen world
and God did not. It was not God's intention that
those brothers sell him into slavery. And yet God used it.
And because that's what the New Testament says, isn't it?
That God works good out of all things? It's not
(35:33):
that he does all these things that we know are evil,
but he works good out of even those things.
S2 (35:40):
Yeah. The other example of Joseph and Potiphar's house. I mean, uh,
he resisted temptation. He did the right thing, and it
landed him in prison. And, um, I don't think God,
you know, orchestrated chess pieces so that he would be tempted.
And then he got thrown into prison anyway. Uh, Potiphar's
wife had free will, Joseph had free will, and there
(36:03):
were consequences, but he certainly did redeem it.
S4 (36:07):
One of the most powerful aspects of Joseph's story is
the forgiveness that he offers to those who mistreated him.
That is, his brothers, who had sold him into slavery
many years earlier. Talk about when it's hard to forgive
a family member and what can come out of that action.
S2 (36:26):
Yeah. Unfortunately, I got a lot of miles under my
belt on this because it is hard and I will
say this without throwing any under anybody under the bus
or revealing things I don't want to reveal publicly. I
do know what it's like to be truly sinned against
and truly wronged. Um, I have experienced that. And the
world would say that we have every right to justice, uh,
(36:49):
that we should hold that person Accountable in our hearts,
in the courtroom of our own minds. And, um, I
just gotta say that that's not how we get free.
And so I've had to walk out over and over.
It's not been a one and done for me. Maybe
for some people they can make the decision to forgive
and it goes away. But that's not been my story. Um,
(37:09):
I've just had to submit it to Jesus over and over.
And again. We don't forgive because the person who sinned
against us deserves it. Or because they apologized, or because
they even recognize the sin. In my case, which was
a person in authority that harmed me and others deeply
from childhood and on. They don't have any recognition of
(37:30):
the harm they've caused. So it has to be orchestrated
by something else based on something else. And for me,
it's based on the fact that while I was still
a sinner, this puts a lump in my throat to
while I was still a sinner. Christ died for me.
It wasn't when I turned to him. It wasn't when
I recognized my need for him or said I was sorry.
(37:51):
It was when I was still in glad rebellion against Jesus.
I had rebellion against him. Um, he died for me
and for others. And so it's a very Christ like
thing to do, to say I forgive you even when
you don't deserve it and haven't asked for it. And
there's a line my pastor, Tim, says a lot. If
you can't pray to want to just say, God, I
(38:13):
don't think I can forgive him today, but I want
to want to forgive him and ask God to give
you that want to. And he'll take it from there.
S4 (38:21):
Yeah. Sometimes use the word releasing them to God. You know,
it's what Jesus did says when they railed against him.
He didn't retaliate, but he committed himself to him who
judges righteously. You know, it's saying, God, you know what
they did, and you know, they may not even be
aware of it, or they are and they're not willing
to apologize, but I want to release them to you.
(38:42):
I just want to turn. And when you're turning them
over to a God that is both loving and just,
you know. And it's not ours to take revenge. Uh,
God is the judge. God will deal with them. We
don't have to live with all that. We can just
release them into his hands. So, yeah. It's powerful.
S2 (39:01):
Yeah. Joseph's story illustrates that beautifully. And the bottom line
is nobody gets away with anything because God is a
just judge. So I think sometimes we can think, oh, no,
if I forgive them, they're going to get away with it.
Joseph's brothers years went by. There was probably no reason
for Joseph to think they were going to answer for
their crimes, or have to fess up to their dad
or any of that. But God, in the fullness of time,
(39:24):
his way, made sure everything came out. And truth does
come to the surface, and he is good, and he
is just. And justice will be served and you can
trust him with it.
S4 (39:35):
Yeah. In the book, you talk about the reality that
the family tree of Jesus also had some very rotten
apples in it, you know? And yet God used those
people in his lineage. What does that tell us about
our own families?
S2 (39:53):
Well, Jesus himself said, there's only one who's good, and
that's him. So all of us are rotten apples at
the sin level. And yet God chose Jesus, orchestrated all
of it. He chose to be born of a woman.
He didn't need to do that. He chose to gestate
in a womb. He didn't need to do that. He
chose to submit himself under the authority of imperfect parents.
(40:17):
He didn't need to do that. He surrounded himself with
imperfect friends and followers. He didn't need to do that.
So what it says to me, and I'm so grateful
for this, is that he doesn't require us to be perfect,
to use us. And I'm not perfect. I won't be
perfect until I'm perfected in front of him. But he
uses me and he uses my family. And so I
(40:38):
just think it speaks to his kindness, his graciousness, and
his desire to see us come to him and trust
him for all things, and to use us even in
the mess.
S4 (40:50):
Yeah, Chris. When I think of that, I think of
the book you and I wrote on the ancestors of Jesus. Yes. Uh,
what is what is the title of that book?
S3 (41:01):
What is the title? That was the same thing I
was thinking. It is, um. Extraordinary grace. Yes. Uh, it
was about the unlikely lineage of Jesus. And it was
a message that you had given at church, and and we,
you know, put it around Christmas, of course, because of the,
the genealogy, as you mentioned earlier. But when you look
(41:21):
back at some of those people, it's like, why is
this rascal. Why is this rascal, you know, rascal lad
or rascals? They are right there and there's a reason
for that and that's that. God loves rascals and he
died for rascals, right?
S4 (41:34):
Yeah. And if he didn't use rascals, he wouldn't have
anything to use. Bingo! Because none of us are perfect.
Aaron talked to the person who has agreed with everything
you've said today and we've talked about, but inside they're saying, yeah,
but you don't know my family. You don't know the dysfunction.
(41:57):
What encouragement do you have for that, for that listener?
S2 (42:00):
Well, I wrote this study for you, and I wish
that you and I could go out for a long
lunch and look each other eyeball to eyeball, and maybe
we'd compare notes some. But I would quickly get you
to Jesus because your pain is real and so is mine.
It's not like I wrote this Bible study and everything
in my family got resolved. In fact, the opposite has happened.
(42:24):
You guys can affirm this often when you write a
book on something. Gasoline gets poured on that fire, and
that has certainly happened in a couple instances in my family. But, um,
Jesus is with you. And there's a verse that says,
though mother and father forsake me, you will never forsake me.
Talking about the Lord. And for some people that's a
theory or a greeting card. But for me, it's not theory.
(42:46):
For me, it's very practical and it's also really true.
He will never leave you or forsake you. He's as
close as your shadow. And if you get more of him,
if you crave more of him, if you seek his
presence more often, if you're more attuned to his voice
because of the pain in your family, um, then that's
a profound gift. So I would just encourage you to
(43:08):
keep walking with him. And, you know, a lot of
this isn't going to get resolved this side of heaven.
And we don't like that. We want resolution. We want
the tension to ease. We want relationships to be reconciled.
That's been hard for me to understand, knowing that God
is a great reconciler and he values unity. Why? Some
relationships in my family are not unified. But a day
(43:30):
is coming and I believe it won't be long now. Uh,
when we are with him. And these things will be
what the Bible calls former things. So my encouragement to
you would be hold on tightly to Jesus. He's holding
on tightly to you.
S4 (43:44):
You know, Aaron, I'm glad you, uh, you shared that
because I do think that there are many families that
all of us have had relationships with. If it's not
our own family who are walking with God, they've sincerely tried.
They are praying, uh, but the situation, their family is
not resolved and it doesn't get resolved, you know, until
(44:05):
there's a death and the part of the one family
member or something. And then obviously we don't have any
relationship with them at that juncture. But we are fallen
creatures and we all do things that should not be done.
And there's always negative fallout when we violate the principles
of God, because every law that God ever gave us
(44:25):
when he says, don't do this or do this, is
because he loved us and he wants us to have
the best possible life. But we're fallen and we have
a sinful nature, and we often do things that should
not be done and violate God's principles. But he still
loves us, and he calls us to repentance. But that's
our choice. We choose to repent and turn to him,
(44:48):
or we choose to walk away from him. And we
have to give our families, extended families and all of that.
We have to give them the same freedom that God
gives them, you know, to repent or to seek relationships,
healing or to just ignore and walk away. And so
giving them that kind of freedom is going to be important,
(45:08):
and it's certainly going to help us process our own lives. Well,
I really appreciate you being on the program today, Aaron,
and also putting together this study. I think it's going
to help a lot of ladies. I know you kind
of wrote it for ladies, but men could profit from
it as well. So thanks again for all that you
have been doing and all the books you've written and
(45:28):
the studies and the way you've helped so many ladies
in particular. So thanks for being with us today.
S2 (45:34):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor.
S3 (45:36):
What an encouraging conversation today with Aaron Davis. If you
go to building relationships, you'll see the study that Gary
just mentioned, the story of Joseph, how God can redeem
imperfect families. And I would say add this to the conversation.
If you are thinking that I'm going to get into
a church once I get my family fixed. Don't do it.
(45:58):
We need the mess because we're all in the mess, right? Uh,
go to building relationships to find out more.
S4 (46:05):
And next week, your questions, struggles, and comments from our
listener line.
S1 (46:11):
Don't miss our September edition of Dear Gary in one week.
Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve
Wick and Janice. Backing. Building relationships with Gary Chapman is
a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
If you need help and hope for the brokenness in
your family, don't miss today's Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2 (00:07):
Joseph's choice is a really important one that we make.
Will we continue to let the Lord keep our hearts
soft when hard heartedness feels like the safer option? Even
if we have the will, we need him to empower
the will. But I think Joseph modeled that really beautiful
choice for us.
S1 (00:28):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
author and speaker Aaron Davis reveals how a very dysfunctional
family described in the Old Testament can give hope to
us today. If you go to our website Building Relationships,
you'll see our featured resource, Aaron's book The Story of
(00:50):
Joseph How God can redeem Imperfect Families.
S3 (00:54):
Just go to building relationships. And Gary, I like that
subtitle because no matter how messed up, dysfunctional or imperfect
we might be, God loves to redeem, doesn't he?
S4 (01:06):
Yes, and we are all imperfect, some more imperfect than others.
But we're all imperfect. But God does redeem imperfect families.
And so I thank our discussion today in this book
we're discussing is really going to help a lot of people.
S3 (01:22):
Yeah, I think it's going to be encouraging. So let's
meet our guest, Aaron Davis, writer teacher passionately committed to
getting women of all ages to the deep well of
God's Word. She's written more than a dozen books and
Bible studies, including connected seven Feasts and Fasting and feasting.
Hear her teach on the Deep Well with Aaron Davis podcast.
(01:44):
Her latest book is our featured resource at Building Relationships.
It's titled The Story of Joseph How God can redeem
Imperfect Families. Again, find out more at Building Relationships. Us.
S4 (01:58):
Well, Aaron, welcome back to Building Relationships.
S2 (02:00):
Thank you. I'm so glad to be back.
S4 (02:03):
Now, the last time you were with us, we talked
with you and your husband, Jason, about life size. Boys believe.
And it seems to me that this new book is
going to encourage families not to believe some lies of
the enemy.
S2 (02:17):
Yeah, you picked up on a theme there that I
hadn't picked up on. It's not just boys that believe lies,
and not just boys that the enemy lies to. He
lies to all of us. And the Bible tells us
that he's a deceiver. And it just seems obvious to
me that our families is one area where he wreaks
a tremendous amount of havoc. So whether you're married or
not married, you have kids, you don't have kids no
(02:39):
matter where you are in your family life in this moment, um,
we all need the Lord to show us his truth.
S4 (02:46):
That is for certain. You know, Joseph's family tree is
filled with dysfunction, what we normally call dysfunction. So why
did you decide to write a study using him as
the example of how God works in families?
S2 (03:01):
I guess I could answer that question in one word,
which would be desperation. Isn't that what happens for all
of us? We need answers for our own struggles. And
I have a messy family. I own that in the
Bible study. Uh, but everybody does. And I just needed
some examples from Scripture for somebody's story that doesn't get
tied up in a neat little bow, at least not quickly.
(03:23):
We get these snapshots of people and things get resolved
fairly quickly, but not in Joseph's story. His story covers
about 20 chapters, even more if you go back at
the beginning of his family tree and it is messy,
and I guess misery loves company, I took some comfort
in knowing here's somebody who loved God, and God loved him,
(03:44):
and God used him. And yet his story is not
linear at all. When we look at his family and
neither is mine and God used him anyway, God was
working in spite of the mess, and so I just
found a lot of hope in his very messy story.
S4 (04:00):
Yeah, well, I think a lot of families can identify
because we have a lot of dysfunction. One premise of
the study is that family is God's idea. So where
do you see that in Scripture?
S2 (04:14):
I think sometimes when we read our Bibles, we can
miss things that are really obvious. And this idea is
one of those. I mean, truly beginning in Genesis, we
get that idea. God created the first family. He didn't
create us as humans in cohorts or work groups or classes.
He created Adam and Eve, of course, as a family.
(04:36):
And so the book of Romans tells us we can
learn a lot from God's character by observing creation. And
so I think we can observe it a lot from
just that Genesis account. But it doesn't end there when
you read your Bible, family is everywhere. There are so
many genealogies in Scripture, and we know not a word
is wasted in the word, so it's worth asking, what
(04:57):
is that about? Why are all these families recognized and
noted and the family never goes away? In all of
the human experience, God doesn't say, after the flood go, whoops,
the family was a bad idea. That didn't work out well.
Let's try a different model. Um, and even when we
get into the New Testament, we get this new idea
of family, which is that we have been adopted as
(05:19):
heirs into the family of God, which blows my mind,
but is right there in Scripture. So it's true. And
so that family language persists even unto revelation, where we're
we're with the marriage supper of the lamb, and all
of history culminates in a wedding. That's family language too.
So it really is from the first pages of the
(05:39):
Bible to the last pages of the Bible. Of course,
the Bible is about God. It's it's not primarily about family,
but God uses family language, and he uses families throughout
his whole redemptive story.
S4 (05:51):
Yeah, that is for sure. You know, and I think
all of us recognize that as goes the family, so
goes the larger culture. So.
S2 (05:59):
Amen.
S4 (06:00):
How are family is a fundamental building block for human flourishing.
S2 (06:05):
Well, this has been your life work, Doctor Chapman. And
you championed this so well. And the reason is for
what you just said, that when this building block crumbles
and we're seeing this in our world, uh, it has
catastrophic results. But that was God's plan is that he
would build human flourishing on the family. I'll take us
(06:25):
back to Genesis again. What's the first command? Be fruitful
and multiply. Who did he give it to? The first family.
And so it was his intent that Adam and Eve,
in a marriage, through the birth of their children and
cultivating the world that he's made, that flourishing would come
out of that. And we can also know from what
we observe, which is that when families disintegrate, society does
(06:48):
not flourish. We know this. Uh, when there's fatherlessness in
the home, when marriage is fracture, when children are leaving
the covering of their parents too soon. Things fall apart
well beyond just the home. It impacts industry and church
life and all kinds of things. So God designed family
to be really an epicenter for human flourishing.
S4 (07:10):
How does the Bible define family? Can you give us
a working definition?
S2 (07:15):
I can, there's not a like turn to Ecclesiastes three
and there's the definition for you. But if we look
at the whole of Scripture, here's a working definition that
I think is true to God's intent. That family is
an institution designed by God to reveal who he is
and to subdue and cultivate the world that he has
(07:36):
made and all that's important. You know, we are in
a anti-institution age. I heard somebody say recently, we're in
a trust recession and man, isn't that true? So we
kind of stiff arm the idea of institutions. But institutions
are just an organism, a mechanism for human flourishing. And
God created this one. It was his design. And again,
(07:57):
I take us back to that be fruitful and multiply
command that he gave in Scripture. Uh, that is through
families that we would subdue his world.
S4 (08:05):
Give us that one more time, that working definition.
S2 (08:08):
Sure. Family is an institution designed by God to reveal
who he is and to subdue and cultivate the world
he has made.
S4 (08:17):
So in the light of that, you say that God
is a generational God. What does that mean?
S2 (08:22):
I would say that is one of the most profound
lessons that I learned from the story of Joseph, which
is that God is working generationally. All we know is
our moment in time. We might know our grandparents and
our parents. We might, if we're fortunate, have access to
four generations in our family, though unlikely. But God has
all of eternity in mind and all of human history
(08:45):
in mind. And what we see in Joseph's story is
that things God was doing in Abraham's life bore fruit
in Joseph's life. Things that were God was doing in
Isaac's life bore fruit in Joseph's life, and things God
was doing in Joseph's life, bore fruit many, many generations
down the road. And so he cares about the generations
from generation to generation. I am God, he says in
(09:08):
his word. He talks about generational blessings and generational cursings
in his word. Um, but for me, it's just thinking
of the baton of faith and hope and goodness, all
the things God gives us being passed from one generation
to the next, and that God has a much bigger,
much longer plan because he's working through all the generations
of my family.
S3 (09:29):
Aaron, you mentioned in that first segment that this story
of Joseph is not linear, and it's kind of messy
and how we want the bow, everything tied up well,
neatly and wrapped, kind of a a hallmark story, you know,
for our lives. And God doesn't seem as interested in
giving us that as he is bringing us through the
(09:54):
hard stuff. Can you talk about that?
S2 (09:57):
Yeah, that was another just aha moment for me in
Joseph's story, which was realizing I wanted God to eliminate
the messes from my family. And I think that's a
human and understandable impulse. I won't go into all the
details of my family, because I want to honor those
people that are in my family. But there's some long
term estrangements. There's some deep pain that it just seems
(10:21):
like God could snap his fingers and take it away.
And he hasn't. And what Joseph's story tells us is
that often God works in the midst of the mess,
not just in spite of it. I would think, like God,
if he would just remove these barriers. Then we could
really see you work that that would be the evidence
of you working. But it was really through many of
the struggles of Joseph's family that Joseph became, became the
(10:45):
man God needed him to be for the mission that
God had for Joseph. And so, yeah, the messiness didn't
all fall away. Joseph's story kind of ends with a
happy ending. Um, but it doesn't end with everything working
out just the way that I would have written it
if I were writing the story. But God was at
work in the whole thing.
S4 (11:05):
Well, some of our listeners are familiar with the life
of Joseph. Others of our listeners are not. So let's
get an overview of the sweep of this whole story,
because it's pretty complex. Can you boil down Joseph's story
for us?
S2 (11:18):
It is pretty complex, and I want to revert to
my Sunday school self and start singing Father Abraham, because
I think that's the right place to start it. And
the Bible often refers to God as God, the God
of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But we could tack Joseph
on right after that. So Abraham and Sarah were married,
and they had Isaac, their son of promise. Isaac married Rebecca,
(11:42):
and they had sons. Uh, that's a really messy spot there.
Sons Jacob and Esau. And Jacob was Joseph's father. But
that was like the quickest pass possible. Uh, Joseph's mom
was Rachel, and she was only one of multiple wives
that Joseph's dad had. So just in that quick summary,
(12:05):
we get couples that had tension in their marriage. We
get fighting between brothers. And I'm talking about big time fighting.
That leads with one brother leaving the family. We now
call this going no contact. It's not a new phenomenon.
It happened way back. Uh, in Joseph's story, we get
sisters who literally fought for, uh, sexual time with their husband. Uh,
(12:30):
what's yucky? And it's in there. And then we get Joseph.
And Joseph was one of 12 brothers. Others, and those
relationships were highly contentious. The Bible makes it clear that
Joseph and baby brother Benjamin were the favorites of their dad,
because they were the only sons of Rachel, and their
dad didn't try to hide it. He gave them favor,
(12:52):
he paraded his favor, and the brothers hated Joseph for it.
In fact, they threw him in a pit right before
they sold him to slave traders. So, uh, that it
was messy all along the way. Lots of infighting, lots
of hurt, lots of bitterness, lots of unforgiveness, lots of hatred. Uh,
and a lot of those themes are present in our
(13:13):
family still.
S4 (13:14):
So. So how does Joseph's story, then give hope for
dysfunctional and painful parts of our families?
S2 (13:21):
Well, for all of us, the bottom line is this,
which is that our stories are not ultimately about us.
Our stories are about God and what he's doing. And
it does become a story of redemption. There's this famous
line in Genesis 50 where Joseph looks at the faces
of his brothers who had done so much harm to him.
And he says to them, what you intended for evil,
(13:43):
God used for good that many would be saved. And
I believe that's the gospel right there in Genesis 50.
What the enemy intended for evil in the garden God
has redeemed and used for good. And Jesus came that
many would be saved. And so the story is that, yeah,
we are broken and sinful, and we hurt each other deeply,
and we're hurt deeply, and some of those wounds we're
(14:06):
going to take with us until we're with Jesus. But
he's always working things for our good and his glory,
and he's promised he's going to make all things new,
even our broken families.
S4 (14:18):
One of your studies is entitled don't Skip the baguettes.
So and so baguettes so and so and so and
so baguettes so and so. As a matter of fact,
I've just been reading through Second Chronicles, and it's filled
with those Genealogies. So what do we miss if we
skip over these names? And I have to be honest,
(14:38):
as I was reading it, I did skip over some
of it.
S2 (14:41):
Many of many. I read the Bible in a year
program has been derailed by the genealogies, I get it.
But we know that all Scripture is God breathed and
it's all useful for instruction. We get that from the
New Testament, and we know that it is the perfect,
infallible Word of God. And so we can just come
to those genealogies and know, okay, the Holy Spirit inspired
(15:04):
the writers to write these names down and preserve these
names for me all this time, that I may gain
wisdom and knowledge of God. And so there are so
many lessons to be learned from the begets. But one
of them is that generational God thing that we talked
about before. I mean, here's these names. Many of them
feel old fashioned and are hard to pronounce. And yet
(15:26):
God was doing something in their lives, and who they
are has been lost to history. We don't know much
about them. We don't know their trades or where they
lived in a lot of cases. But we know that
God used their story. And many of those genealogies, of course,
are pointing to Jesus. And so that's just one way.
But for me, I take a lot of hope in
knowing that God uses ordinary people, um, and that in
(15:48):
the moment they could not have known how their story
was going to unfold. They just knew the tension in
their own marriage or the child that felt difficult to discipline,
or the sister in law that didn't understand them. I'm
just pulling those examples from random, but also from my life. Um,
but but God knew. God knew what he was going
to do. And I just take so much hope in
(16:10):
knowing that nobody gets lost in God's story. Nobody's inconsequential
in God's story. He, uh, the Bible says that he
keeps our tears in a bottle. That's how attentive he is.
Does he count the hairs on our heads? And so
that's at least one lesson we can take from those genealogies,
which is that he cares about each individual that's made
in his image.
S4 (16:31):
We don't do much of that anymore. You know, most
people don't even know their great grandfather or their, you know,
that sort of thing. So what are the differences between
the cultural messages that we're receiving, you know, about the
purpose of the family and the biblical teaching on the
value and purpose of the family?
S2 (16:50):
I think the primary message the culture sends is that
your family is a means for your happiness. So if
your marriage doesn't make you happy, by all means get out.
If your children are driving you crazy, by all means
go away for the weekend. Away from your kids. Not
that there's a problem with that, but if it's a
constant means of escape than it is. And the Bible
(17:11):
does not give us that message. Our families are meant
to be means where we honor the Lord first and
foremost in all things and by which we're sanctified. So yeah,
marriage is tough and deeply sanctifying. And parenting is tough.
It's the hottest refiner's fire that I've ever been in.
My husband and I have four sons, and I had
(17:33):
no idea how selfish and entitled I was until I
tried to mother them. It's not comfortable, but God is
using family and some of the pain and heartache that
I've inflicted and that's been inflicted upon me. God used
all of that to expose my true condition, which is
that I need him a whole lot. So does my
family make me happy? There's nobody in the world I
(17:55):
want to be around more than my husband, Jason. There's
nobody I adore more than my four children, but they're
not primarily to make me happy. They're to make me
more like Jesus.
S3 (18:04):
We're talking with Aaron Davis today on building relationships with
Doctor Gary Chapman. Go to Building Relationships and you'll see
Aaron's book. It's our featured resource, the story of Joseph,
how God can redeem imperfect families. If you're in one
of those, this study's going to help go to building relationships.
As I was going through the book, Aaron, one of
(18:26):
the things that really encouraged me and in the story
of Joseph, you see it all over the place, the
sovereignty of God, the you know how he planned this
ahead of time. It wasn't happenstance. And yet there are
people who are listening right now who could who would say, well,
God's sovereign, you know, he's going to do what he's
going to do and be kind of fatal about it.
(18:48):
You know, it's like, I don't have any control over this,
but you don't see that in Joseph's story. He had
a his choices mattered, didn't they?
S2 (18:56):
That's right. And that is so mysterious. How can both
be true? But they are. God is absolutely sovereign. The
Bible tells us that the earth is his footstool. So
he is over all things in control of all things.
And yet human choices make a difference. The one that
most comes to mind to me from Joseph's story is
that Joseph had the choice to forgive his brothers, and
(19:18):
he did. Uh, he had at that point all the
power he held, all the cards. He was right hand
man to Pharaoh. They were starving from another country. They
came to him begging. Essentially, they didn't know it was
their brother. And so, uh, he could have done anything there. But, uh,
the Bible tells us how moved he was with compassion
that his heart stayed soft to his brothers, and that
(19:41):
he chose to forgive them. I don't know how the
story would have unfolded if he hadn't. I don't know
if Joseph's story would still be even recorded in Scripture.
Only God knows that. But that's just one time when
Joseph had a choice and he could have made a
different choice. And he makes choices all along the way.
There's another time where he makes a choice in Potiphar's
house that costs him dearly. But God was sovereign over
(20:05):
even that. And so we do have choices. And I
think when it comes to our families, Joseph's choice is
a really important one that we make. Will we continue
to forgive not because our family members deserve it? Often
they don't, but because Christ forgave us and paid such
a high price to forgive us. Will we continue to
let the Lord keep our hearts soft when hard heartedness
(20:27):
feels like the safer option? So many times? And it's
the Spirit's work that does this. Uh, even if we
have the will, we need him to empower the will.
But I think Joseph modeled that really beautiful choice for us.
S4 (20:41):
You know, I think most of us in today's world,
if we would think that our brothers would sell us
into slavery, you know, our attitude would be, I'm going
to make them suffer if I ever get a chance,
you know, and all that sort of thing. And I
think that's just natural. But. And it took time, you know,
in Joseph's life. But through all of that, he must
have been thinking along the lines of God is using this.
(21:03):
He saw God's hand in what happened to him after
that and how God exalted him. And then later he
had the opportunity to return good for evil, which is
what the Bible clearly, clearly says when he, you know,
provided for his family. So yeah, it's a powerful story.
S3 (21:18):
The other thing that hits me, Gary, is the the reality,
the authenticity of the story. Because there's a a place
where Joseph goes out of the room and is overwhelmed
with emotion. He is weeping, and the people you know
who are around him are wondering, what in the world
is going on here? And he is just broken by, uh,
(21:42):
what what has happened with his his brothers as they
come and he recognizes them. And, uh, the depth of that,
that's always encouraged me. That emotion and the struggle is
something to walk through rather than skirt around. What do
you think, Gary?
S4 (21:59):
Well, I think that's exactly right. I think often we
just try to push our emotions down and all that
sort of thing. But, I mean, that was a part
had to be a powerful moment when he realized, these
are my brothers. These are the ones that sold me
into slavery. And they're here asking me, and now I
get a chance to help them. You know, I mean,
it's hard to imagine all the emotions that were there
(22:21):
around the.
S3 (22:22):
The brothers actually lied to their dad too, and made
him think that Joseph was dead.
S2 (22:29):
Yeah, I was thinking of that while you were talking,
that there were many moments of profound emotion in the story.
Reuben has one such moment. Reuben is the oldest brother, and, uh,
I came to really identify with him because many times
I feel like he tried to do the right thing
and things got out of his hand. And so he
had this moment of deep regret when Joseph was sold
(22:51):
into slavery. And you can feel the emotion in the pages.
And then the same thing. You're right. With their dad. Um, first,
when he's told that Joseph was probably devoured by animals,
they bring him this, uh, coat of favor, and they
dipped it in animal blood. And they say we think
he was killed even though they knew he was not.
And their dad has deep grief then. But again, when
(23:11):
they came to Egypt, Joseph said, you can go back,
but you have to leave one of the brothers here.
And they come back and have to tell their dad
again that he's lost a son, at least to captivity.
And the dad has such profound grief that the Bible
tells us he could not be comforted. And so there
are these just moments. And I think you're right, Gary.
(23:32):
You said we're sometimes taught to stuff it or to
gloss over it, and the Bible shows us it's okay
to emote, and that God gave us those emotions. And
in the context of our families, we definitely see that
in Joseph's story.
S4 (23:45):
Yeah. Well, you know, in the book you also talk
about prayer and the value of prayer. How can women
or men, either, for that matter, leave a legacy of
prayer for their family?
S2 (23:57):
Well, I have the gift. You can probably hear a
lump in my throat as I start to tell you
about her. I have the gift of a godly and
praying mom who, right this moment, is laying in a
hospice bed at the end of her life, close to
meeting Jesus face to face, and her legacy is that
she prayed for us. She loved us incredibly well. Uh,
(24:18):
she was such a fun and good mom. But I
can't count the number of times that as a teenager,
I would come home squealing into the driveway right up
to the end of my curfew, racing into the house,
and I would find my mom in the living room
with her Bible open, and she would simply say, oh, Aaron,
I was just praying for you and I look forward
(24:39):
to getting to glory and seeing the fruit of that
in my life. How has my marriage been impacted by
my mom's prayers? Have my children been impacted by my
mom's prayers? How have their children when they have children,
how will they be impacted by their mom's prayers? So
that was an important part of the Bible study for me,
is that one day of each session I walk you
(25:00):
through leaving a legacy of prayer for your family and we.
Sometimes when things are hard in our family life, we
will get to the end of our ropes and then
start to pray. And, um, prayer is powerful and you
can change generations. I believe through your prayers and there's
no magic formula. Uh, but I think if we start
(25:23):
to think generationally as God thinks generationally, I dedicated the
Bible study to my great great granddaughters. Uh, I only
have sons. I have no daughters. But this study of
Joseph started me thinking, how could I impact my great
great grandchildren? Well, I can start praying for them and
praying that they would be dedicated to Jesus and that
(25:44):
they would love the Bible. Now, I don't know. Jesus
may come back before I have great great granddaughters, but
I'm at least thinking about them. So I think praying
with a long game in mind other than Jesus, help
me be patient with my toddler today, which is a
good and honest prayer. But Jesus, help this toddler to
grow into a man who loves you, who stands on
your word, who proclaims your truth to the next generation.
(26:06):
Think bigger and pray bigger and see what God does.
S4 (26:09):
Prayer is God's means of accomplishing things. Just like teaching
and preaching is a means of God. Prayer is a
means of God and everybody has the opportunity to be
a prayer.
S1 (26:25):
You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
He's the author of the New York Times best seller
The Five Love Languages. And when you go to five
love languages, you can take a free assessment of your
love language and see when Gary might be coming to
your area for a seminar. You'll also see the book
by our guest, Aaron Davis. It's titled The Story of
(26:47):
Joseph How God Can Redeem Imperfect Families. Find out more
at five Love Languages. Com.
S4 (26:56):
Aaron, in the study you say that our families are missionaries.
What does that mean?
S2 (27:02):
Yeah, well, a missionary is someone who goes and tells
the good news. And, um, our families have a way
of exposing how much we need. The good news. Uh,
my kids are starting to get much older. I don't
have toddlers anymore, but when I did, I remember feeling
like I was never an angry woman until God gave
me these children. And now I'm angry all the time.
(27:25):
And what God was using my children to expose is
that no, I actually have murder in my heart, as
we all do. And so that could have driven me
in many directions. But by God's grace, it drove me
to the cross to say, God, I need you. And
that can happen in so many ways. Something I'm hearing
(27:45):
often with the women that I minister to, is the
pain of having adult children either leave the faith or
an added layer, leave the faith and cut off their
parents relationship. And that is so painful and I believe
it is an attack by the enemy that's happening, a
concentrated effort right now, but it could make you embittered.
(28:06):
It can make you just wallow in your grief. It
can make you feel helpless. It can make you pace
the floors. And all of those might be stages of it.
Or it can bring you to Jesus. Enrich the point.
At which point you say, Jesus, they were always yours,
and you loved them more than I love them. And
it's your will that none should perish, but that all
should come to everlasting life. And I want them to
(28:27):
come to you even more than I want them to
come to me. In which case, that pain that your
child is inflicting upon your heart, and it's real and
it's deep, but it's a missionary meant to drive you
to Jesus that remind you that the gospel is for
all of us. We all need him. We all need
his redemptive work. And so I've come to see those
pain points, which are many and frequent as opportunities to
(28:51):
a live more deeply surrendered to Jesus and His authority
in my life, and to walk out the gospel, which
is that every person in my family is a sinner,
and I am too. And we all need Jesus very much.
S4 (29:03):
Yeah, your reference to adult children reminds me of a
book I released just recently called Your New Life with
Adult Children and the need we have to stay connected
as long as we can and yet not dominating. You know,
letting them be free as God makes all of us free.
(29:24):
But I like what you said. If they have rebelled
or walked off or doing things that hurt you, pray
for them. Pray for them, pray for them, but love them.
Keep an open arm. Don't write them off because God
doesn't write them off, you know. So that's powerful.
S2 (29:39):
Amen.
S4 (29:40):
There's a section in your study on playing favorites in
the family, and that can be a problem. But there's
also an upside to knowing God's favor. Talk about that.
S2 (29:53):
Yeah, I frequently say this is why we need to
know our whole Bibles, because if we reduce our Bibles
to a soundbite or a social media post, then we
can miss these really beautiful and sometimes more complex truths.
And the complex truth is, God has favorites. So we
know from Scripture that the nation of Israel is his
chosen and favored people, not because they were so good,
(30:16):
they were rascals, but because he chose to favor them
as an example of his love. And of course, he
favors us. He loves us. Does he have favorites in
terms of some are more important than him to others, no.
We know that all people are made in his image
and all loved by him, but I take great hope
(30:37):
in knowing I'm one of his favorites, in that I'm
a beloved daughter of his, adopted into the kingdom, that
he looks at me as an individual and that he
has a plan for me. And so much like he
has a favored nation, uh, I'm among his favorite people,
and he uses that favoritism language in scripture as a
means of expressing his deep and individualistic love. And I'm
(31:00):
so grateful for that.
S4 (31:02):
Yeah. What do the snapshots of Joseph's family teach us
about how God is at work in every family?
S2 (31:11):
Yeah. I mean, will people even know that phrase snapshot?
I know we all have cameras on our phones now.
It's not like a Polaroid anymore, but snapshot is just
a moment in time. And it's tempting because we're finite
to put way too much stock in a single snapshot.
And so maybe your marriage is really tense right now.
(31:33):
Jason and I have certainly lived that. We've been married
24 years. We've had great years and not great years.
And it's tempting in that snapshot to think our marriage
is over. We're not going to make it. It's always
going to be this way. God can't fix what's broken,
but it's just a snapshot. Or I've learned this from parenting.
You can be in a very difficult phase, and you
can feel like, oh no, I've lost this child's attention
(31:56):
or obedience or care, but it's just a snapshot. Uh,
they're part of a they're developing. I say to my
sons a lot. The jury hasn't even started deliberating on
you yet. So we don't know all that God's going
to do. And this is just one moment. It's just
a snapshot and that. Can you carry that out for
so many things? And the study, I looked at a
(32:17):
lot of snapshots from my own family examples like Jason
and I having strained seasons of marriage, uh, our oldest son,
when he was still in utero, they told us he
wasn't going to survive the pregnancy, and if he did,
he'd be severely disabled. And that was just a snapshot for.
So for nine long months, we thought we had a
child that was going to be born and die. And
(32:38):
his name is Elisha, which means God is my salvation,
because that's not what God had in mind for him.
And he's now a thriving 17 year old. But there's
so many of those in our lives that in the
moment we think, oh no, my family is ruined, I've
wrecked it. This can't be redeemed. But that's not who
God is, and that's not how he works. And he
just has such a bigger view in mind.
S4 (33:00):
I remember when our children were in the teenage years.
Especially our son. Our daughter. She could have raised herself.
You know, she was just always compliant. And her son
was totally different. I remember the day my wife had
a frustration turned to me and said, he's your son.
I'm through. But that was a snapshot, you know? The
(33:23):
reality is, with time, they're very, very close. He values
his mother greatly. And but yeah, we can get tied
up in the snapshots. And and that would have been
true for Joseph, I'm sure when he was sold into slavery.
I mean, that was a hard night day or days
for him. But that's a good concept.
S2 (33:42):
It'll be such a gift when we get to heaven
and we see, I don't know how it's all going
to work, but I know that we will be fully
we will know Jesus, even as we've been fully known,
that we'll have perspective that we don't have now. And
it'll be remarkable to see that snapshot from a redemptive lens,
things that right now we think, how could this be good?
How could this be redeemed? And then we'll see. Oh,
(34:06):
God truly never left us or forsook us. And he
was using it all. I can't wait for that.
S3 (34:11):
Well, we come back to the sovereignty thing right there.
It is. You know, this is part of his plan,
even though it's really, really hard to look at some
of life events. As you know, this is part of
the plan. Uh, and we have to be patient with him,
with God who is at work. Right, Aaron?
S2 (34:29):
Yeah. And I want to be careful with that language.
That's true. And then there are things in our family that, um,
are out well, outside of what God would have chosen. Uh,
I come from a divorced home. I know that God
was more grieved by that divorce than I ever will be.
That that's not what he wanted. And we have children
who are abused. That's not what God wants. Um, he
(34:52):
didn't write that into somebody's story with intention. But we
live in a fallen world and there are sinful things
that happen. And so even those things that we know
from Scripture are well outside of what he would have
a part of his perfect plan. He can redeem it.
S4 (35:10):
I think that distinction is really important. You know, it's
not that God causes all the bad things that happen
to us. As you said, we're in a fallen world
and God did not. It was not God's intention that
those brothers sell him into slavery. And yet God used it.
And because that's what the New Testament says, isn't it?
That God works good out of all things? It's not
(35:33):
that he does all these things that we know are evil,
but he works good out of even those things.
S2 (35:40):
Yeah. The other example of Joseph and Potiphar's house. I mean, uh,
he resisted temptation. He did the right thing, and it
landed him in prison. And, um, I don't think God,
you know, orchestrated chess pieces so that he would be tempted.
And then he got thrown into prison anyway. Uh, Potiphar's
wife had free will, Joseph had free will, and there
(36:03):
were consequences, but he certainly did redeem it.
S4 (36:07):
One of the most powerful aspects of Joseph's story is
the forgiveness that he offers to those who mistreated him.
That is, his brothers, who had sold him into slavery
many years earlier. Talk about when it's hard to forgive
a family member and what can come out of that action.
S2 (36:26):
Yeah. Unfortunately, I got a lot of miles under my
belt on this because it is hard and I will
say this without throwing any under anybody under the bus
or revealing things I don't want to reveal publicly. I
do know what it's like to be truly sinned against
and truly wronged. Um, I have experienced that. And the
world would say that we have every right to justice, uh,
(36:49):
that we should hold that person Accountable in our hearts,
in the courtroom of our own minds. And, um, I
just gotta say that that's not how we get free.
And so I've had to walk out over and over.
It's not been a one and done for me. Maybe
for some people they can make the decision to forgive
and it goes away. But that's not been my story. Um,
(37:09):
I've just had to submit it to Jesus over and over.
And again. We don't forgive because the person who sinned
against us deserves it. Or because they apologized, or because
they even recognize the sin. In my case, which was
a person in authority that harmed me and others deeply
from childhood and on. They don't have any recognition of
(37:30):
the harm they've caused. So it has to be orchestrated
by something else based on something else. And for me,
it's based on the fact that while I was still
a sinner, this puts a lump in my throat to
while I was still a sinner. Christ died for me.
It wasn't when I turned to him. It wasn't when
I recognized my need for him or said I was sorry.
(37:51):
It was when I was still in glad rebellion against Jesus.
I had rebellion against him. Um, he died for me
and for others. And so it's a very Christ like
thing to do, to say I forgive you even when
you don't deserve it and haven't asked for it. And
there's a line my pastor, Tim, says a lot. If
you can't pray to want to just say, God, I
(38:13):
don't think I can forgive him today, but I want
to want to forgive him and ask God to give
you that want to. And he'll take it from there.
S4 (38:21):
Yeah. Sometimes use the word releasing them to God. You know,
it's what Jesus did says when they railed against him.
He didn't retaliate, but he committed himself to him who
judges righteously. You know, it's saying, God, you know what
they did, and you know, they may not even be
aware of it, or they are and they're not willing
to apologize, but I want to release them to you.
(38:42):
I just want to turn. And when you're turning them
over to a God that is both loving and just,
you know. And it's not ours to take revenge. Uh,
God is the judge. God will deal with them. We
don't have to live with all that. We can just
release them into his hands. So, yeah. It's powerful.
S2 (39:01):
Yeah. Joseph's story illustrates that beautifully. And the bottom line
is nobody gets away with anything because God is a
just judge. So I think sometimes we can think, oh, no,
if I forgive them, they're going to get away with it.
Joseph's brothers years went by. There was probably no reason
for Joseph to think they were going to answer for
their crimes, or have to fess up to their dad
or any of that. But God, in the fullness of time,
(39:24):
his way, made sure everything came out. And truth does
come to the surface, and he is good, and he
is just. And justice will be served and you can
trust him with it.
S4 (39:35):
Yeah. In the book, you talk about the reality that
the family tree of Jesus also had some very rotten
apples in it, you know? And yet God used those
people in his lineage. What does that tell us about
our own families?
S2 (39:53):
Well, Jesus himself said, there's only one who's good, and
that's him. So all of us are rotten apples at
the sin level. And yet God chose Jesus, orchestrated all
of it. He chose to be born of a woman.
He didn't need to do that. He chose to gestate
in a womb. He didn't need to do that. He
chose to submit himself under the authority of imperfect parents.
(40:17):
He didn't need to do that. He surrounded himself with
imperfect friends and followers. He didn't need to do that.
So what it says to me, and I'm so grateful
for this, is that he doesn't require us to be perfect,
to use us. And I'm not perfect. I won't be
perfect until I'm perfected in front of him. But he
uses me and he uses my family. And so I
(40:38):
just think it speaks to his kindness, his graciousness, and
his desire to see us come to him and trust
him for all things, and to use us even in
the mess.
S4 (40:50):
Yeah, Chris. When I think of that, I think of
the book you and I wrote on the ancestors of Jesus. Yes. Uh,
what is what is the title of that book?
S3 (41:01):
What is the title? That was the same thing I
was thinking. It is, um. Extraordinary grace. Yes. Uh, it
was about the unlikely lineage of Jesus. And it was
a message that you had given at church, and and we,
you know, put it around Christmas, of course, because of the,
the genealogy, as you mentioned earlier. But when you look
(41:21):
back at some of those people, it's like, why is
this rascal. Why is this rascal, you know, rascal lad
or rascals? They are right there and there's a reason
for that and that's that. God loves rascals and he
died for rascals, right?
S4 (41:34):
Yeah. And if he didn't use rascals, he wouldn't have
anything to use. Bingo! Because none of us are perfect.
Aaron talked to the person who has agreed with everything
you've said today and we've talked about, but inside they're saying, yeah,
but you don't know my family. You don't know the dysfunction.
(41:57):
What encouragement do you have for that, for that listener?
S2 (42:00):
Well, I wrote this study for you, and I wish
that you and I could go out for a long
lunch and look each other eyeball to eyeball, and maybe
we'd compare notes some. But I would quickly get you
to Jesus because your pain is real and so is mine.
It's not like I wrote this Bible study and everything
in my family got resolved. In fact, the opposite has happened.
(42:24):
You guys can affirm this often when you write a
book on something. Gasoline gets poured on that fire, and
that has certainly happened in a couple instances in my family. But, um,
Jesus is with you. And there's a verse that says,
though mother and father forsake me, you will never forsake me.
Talking about the Lord. And for some people that's a
theory or a greeting card. But for me, it's not theory.
(42:46):
For me, it's very practical and it's also really true.
He will never leave you or forsake you. He's as
close as your shadow. And if you get more of him,
if you crave more of him, if you seek his
presence more often, if you're more attuned to his voice
because of the pain in your family, um, then that's
a profound gift. So I would just encourage you to
(43:08):
keep walking with him. And, you know, a lot of
this isn't going to get resolved this side of heaven.
And we don't like that. We want resolution. We want
the tension to ease. We want relationships to be reconciled.
That's been hard for me to understand, knowing that God
is a great reconciler and he values unity. Why? Some
relationships in my family are not unified. But a day
(43:30):
is coming and I believe it won't be long now. Uh,
when we are with him. And these things will be
what the Bible calls former things. So my encouragement to
you would be hold on tightly to Jesus. He's holding
on tightly to you.
S4 (43:44):
You know, Aaron, I'm glad you, uh, you shared that
because I do think that there are many families that
all of us have had relationships with. If it's not
our own family who are walking with God, they've sincerely tried.
They are praying, uh, but the situation, their family is
not resolved and it doesn't get resolved, you know, until
(44:05):
there's a death and the part of the one family
member or something. And then obviously we don't have any
relationship with them at that juncture. But we are fallen
creatures and we all do things that should not be done.
And there's always negative fallout when we violate the principles
of God, because every law that God ever gave us
(44:25):
when he says, don't do this or do this, is
because he loved us and he wants us to have
the best possible life. But we're fallen and we have
a sinful nature, and we often do things that should
not be done and violate God's principles. But he still
loves us, and he calls us to repentance. But that's
our choice. We choose to repent and turn to him,
(44:48):
or we choose to walk away from him. And we
have to give our families, extended families and all of that.
We have to give them the same freedom that God
gives them, you know, to repent or to seek relationships,
healing or to just ignore and walk away. And so
giving them that kind of freedom is going to be important,
(45:08):
and it's certainly going to help us process our own lives. Well,
I really appreciate you being on the program today, Aaron,
and also putting together this study. I think it's going
to help a lot of ladies. I know you kind
of wrote it for ladies, but men could profit from
it as well. So thanks again for all that you
have been doing and all the books you've written and
(45:28):
the studies and the way you've helped so many ladies
in particular. So thanks for being with us today.
S2 (45:34):
Thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor.
S3 (45:36):
What an encouraging conversation today with Aaron Davis. If you
go to building relationships, you'll see the study that Gary
just mentioned, the story of Joseph, how God can redeem
imperfect families. And I would say add this to the conversation.
If you are thinking that I'm going to get into
a church once I get my family fixed. Don't do it.
(45:58):
We need the mess because we're all in the mess, right? Uh,
go to building relationships to find out more.
S4 (46:05):
And next week, your questions, struggles, and comments from our
listener line.
S1 (46:11):
Don't miss our September edition of Dear Gary in one week.
Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve
Wick and Janice. Backing. Building relationships with Gary Chapman is
a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.
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