The Alternative to Abortion | Roland Warren

If you care about the unborn, don’t miss this summer best-of Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. President and CEO of one of the largest and oldest pro-life ministries, Roland (RAWL und) Warren, will present a new approach to the issue of abortion. Since the overturning of Roe v. Wade in 2022, Americans have chosen more abortions and more pro-choice laws. Why? Find out on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.

Featured resource: The Alternative to Abortion: Why We Must be Pro Abundant Life

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:01):
If you think abortion is a morally neutral consumer product
that women want in need, you're going to approach this
like Coca Cola or like anybody else who sells a
consumer product that you think folks should have. And so
that's created an enormous opportunity for us, but also a
challenge in some ways as well.

S2 (00:19):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
The New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
the president and CEO of Calnet joins us to talk
about why we must be pro abundant life in our
approach to the issue of abortion.

S3 (00:36):
I am really excited we get to hear this conversation
again on a summer best of broadcast. And if you've
never heard Karen, that's Rolland Warren. Don't miss the discussion today.
Rollin's book, I think, is the best I've seen at
explaining the concept of being pro abundant life for everyone
in the equation of an abortion decision. And maybe you're

(00:57):
on the other side of this issue. I challenge you
to listen to Rollins story and his arguments. If you
go to building relationships, you'll see our featured resource, the
Alternative to Abortion. Why we must be pro abundant life.
Just go to building relationships. And Gary, you've been around
long enough to know what a contentious issue this has

(01:19):
been in the culture and in the church.

S4 (01:22):
Well, that's for sure. Today, in today's world, never would
have thought that we would be at the place we
are now many, many years ago. But I am excited
about our discussion today because this is something that is
so needed in our culture. So looking forward to our
discussion with Rolland.

S3 (01:40):
Well, let's meet him. Rolland Warren is president and CEO
of Carenet, one of the largest networks of crisis pregnancy
centers in North America. Graduate of Princeton University and the
Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. After
20 years in the corporate world, he spent 11 years
as president of the National Fatherhood Initiative. He's the author

(02:00):
of Bad Dads of the Bible Raising Sons of Promise
A guide for Single Mothers of Boys, and are featured
resource today the Alternative to Abortion. He's married to doctor
Yvette Lopez Warren and has two adult sons, Jamin and Justin,
and four grandchildren. Find out more at Building Relationships.

S4 (02:19):
Well, Rolland, welcome to Building Relationships.

S5 (02:22):
Well, thank you very much. I've been a big fan
of your work for many, many years, so it's just
an honor to have an opportunity to speak to you.

S4 (02:29):
Well thank you. We are glad to have you here
and particularly on this topic. So let's begin with the
work of Carenet and what you've been doing through the
years as an organization. As I understand it, since 2008.
Carenet has helped save the lives of more than a
million babies. Is that true? And can you give us

(02:50):
an overview of that ministry?

S1 (02:52):
Yes, it's absolutely true. I mean, it started actually in 1975,
actually called the Christian Action Council, and was there right
around the time that the Roe decision came down from
the Supreme Court and have been working for years to
help women and men facing pregnancy decisions have compassion, hope
and help and discipleship through the church when they're facing

(03:14):
pregnancy decisions. So we've got a network of over 1249
and counting affiliated pregnancy centers in the US and Canada.
And really, what folks get when they go to these
pregnancy centers is really the help that they need to
make a life decision. We say all the time that
life decisions need life support. And so a pregnancy center

(03:35):
is one of those first steps in that life support
that people need in order to make a pregnancy decision.
And as you know, this issue is front and center
in the culture in every way possible. And so the
work of pregnancy centers across the country needs to be supported,
and it needs to be connected to the broader mission
of the Christian community.

S4 (03:56):
Yeah. Well, your involvement with the issue of abortion goes
back to your college days at Princeton, and you're very
open about this story in your new book. Would you
would you share what happened?

S1 (04:10):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I, you know, I was
a junior at Princeton and my girlfriend, now, my wife
of 42 years was a was a sophomore and we
were Christians on campus. But we were doing stuff that
Christians shouldn't do. And the consequence of that was that
we faced a pregnancy decision. And, uh, you know, it's
interesting because when she went to Student Health Services, you know,
she went to the nurse to get the pregnancy test,

(04:31):
the nurse comes back and says it's positive. And without
taking an extra gulp of air, says, now, of course
you're going to have an abortion. And so my wife
Yvette says, well, I don't want to have an abortion.
I want to get married. The nurse says, well, how
are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? And,
you know, Yvette persists a bit and says and says, look,
I want to get married. I want to have my baby.
She says, wait a minute, what do you want to
do when you graduate? And Yvette says, I want to

(04:53):
become a doctor. And the nurse is, my gosh, how
are you going to become a doctor with a baby?
How are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby?
And so, you know, she comes back to the dorm room.
And I always joke, which embarrasses my wife. I say
that we were sitting on the edge of the bed,
which is where we should spend all of our time.
And she gives me this news. And, you know, in
my 20 year old way, by God's grace, I say, no,
we're going to move forward with the plan and we're
going to get married. And so that's what we did.

(05:15):
I was 20, she was 19, and we had our, our,
our son at Princeton. And, you know, she ended up
graduating with Princeton, not with one child but with two,
because it's Princeton. You got to overachieve, you know, Ivy League.
So we have two, two babies. Uh, and then she
went on to become a doctor. She's been practicing medicine, uh,
about 30 years now. So I saw firsthand, obviously, this,

(05:36):
this issue and how the temptation to sort of try
to get rid of the problem is there when you
when you see your, your future before you and you're
not sure how things are going to work. But I
also saw how God steps into that situation, uh, when
when we were facing this, this pregnancy decision and a
lot of that, which I didn't know at the time, frankly,
as a 20 year old, helped me frame the perspective

(05:58):
that I have now. This notion about being pro abundant life,
because what we actually lived out, uh, during that time
as a 20 year old, a 19 year old is
the framework that I'm talking about in this book. And
the way to kind of think about the issue and
transition from being just being pro-life to being pro abundant life.
And we can talk more about that. But that's essentially

(06:19):
where it started.

S4 (06:21):
Well, the experience you went through, uh, has to be
a part of why you do what you do today, right?

S1 (06:29):
Oh, absolutely. You know, everything that I've done in terms
of when God called me from the business world, uh, to, uh,
to nonprofit work and then to ministry, it's connected to that.
I grew up without a father. Uh, my mother was
a single mother for, you know, uh, most of my life, um,
certainly from the time I was 6 or 7, uh,
for kids under the age of eight and with no dad.

(06:50):
So I saw the fatherhood issue firsthand. I lived it,
which kind of motivated me around the book I wrote
about raising Sons of Promise, a guide for single mothers
of boys, and then wrote The Bad Dad of the
Bible book based on, you know, my work at National
Fatherhood Initiative became a father very early in life, didn't
have a dad. So that was there. And then those
perspectives also informed the work that I do at Carenet,

(07:12):
because the fatherhood issue and engaging men is a central
part of a abundant life way of looking at the
life issue. So as you've heard probably many times, God
doesn't waste pain. And he certainly didn't waste any of that.
And he all those perspectives that I kind of learned
very early on, God brought together when he called me
to the ministry of opportunity here. And so I brought

(07:33):
all that with me when I, when I came to Kiernan.

S4 (07:36):
Yeah. So when someone says, you don't know what it's
like to face unplanned pregnancy for you, that's certainly not true.
I'm sure you must have great empathy for people who
are in that situation and struggling with the decision they're
going to make.

S1 (07:52):
No, absolutely. You know, it's it's what you're challenged with is,
you know, are you going to sacrifice your yourself for
the vulnerable or are you going to sacrifice the vulnerable
for yourself? And, you know, that's really kind of what
makes us human if you think about it. I mean,
the essence of compassion is that you you make the decision, right?
To not sacrifice the vulnerable for yourself, but to sacrifice

(08:14):
yourself for the vulnerable. That's really what the parenting decision is.
And that's why we call, you know, mothers who who
make this decision to bring their child into the world
even though they can't necessarily see the future. That's why
we call them blessed. I mean, that's why Mary was
called blessed. She she didn't sacrifice the vulnerable Christ inside
of her for herself. She sacrificed herself for the vulnerable.

(08:35):
And so that's what's before us. And that's why it's
a righteous decision when you choose to bring your child
into the world. And I kind of live that out.
And I saw that with my wife. And that's why
I call her blessing, of course, because, you know, even
though it was a situation where she could have gone
the other way, the reality was that she made that
that choice. And I'll tell you, you know, the story
of Mary was really one of the things that motivated

(08:56):
me around this perspective that I have around the life issue, because, see,
Mary was facing an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective.
She had hopes and dreams for her life that didn't
include a child at this time and in this way.
And the angel comes to her and gives her this news.
And Mary had all these questions, I'm sure, swirling around
in her head. What's my family going to say? You know,
how am I going to take care of this child?

(09:17):
What's Joseph going to say? And in the midst of
all that, she didn't focus on the uncertainty of what
she didn't know. She focused on the certainty of what
she did. There was a life growing inside of her.
And it wasn't a life worth sacrificing, but a life
worth sacrificing for. And when I started with Karen, and
I realized that the work that we're called to do,
the ministry we're called to do, is really helping women
tap into their inner Mary. My wife, though, the way

(09:39):
she got pregnant, was obviously very different from Mary. The
reality was the same after the conception, which was what's
my family going to say? What's my father going to say?
All my hopes and my dreams. And like Mary, she
didn't focus on the uncertainty of what she didn't know.
She focused on the what? On the certainty of what
she did. Yeah. And so that's a key part of this.
This work is really trying to help women tap into

(09:59):
their inner Mary to ascribe to themselves the virtue and
the character of Mary.

S4 (10:04):
Mhm. I'm guessing that looking back on your life at
the age of 20, when all of this happened, that
had an impact on your relationship with God at that juncture?
Would that be true? There was there was a real
a step of real growth in your life at that juncture?

S1 (10:23):
Absolutely. You know, children change everything. And, you know, it's
interesting because the parenting process, you know, is a process
that God uses to help you in terms of your
spiritual formation. Right? To become more holy, to be more
like God, if you will. And that's what we're called
to do as Christians. And so, you know, it absolutely.
Is that that perspective where when when I was faced

(10:46):
with this decision and we decided to get married and
then we had a decision to make in terms of
whether we were going to walk with, with Christ or
not and how we were going to do that. And
you have to trust, I mean, when we it's kind
of an interesting thing now. It's probably more scary when
I look at it now, but we had no visible
means of support, uh, when we decided, uh, to, to
get married, our parents basically said, okay, you guys want
to get married? Well, you're going to be adults and

(11:07):
you're on your own. So really, we got no financial
support from anyone else, which not necessarily what I would recommend,
but that was the reality that we that we faced
in that moment. And we just watched God just again
and again and again come through, provide us the means
to be able to ourselves in our, in our child and,
and then all these things that, you know, the nurse
had told her would never happen. Well, they all happened because,

(11:29):
you know, with God, everything is possible.

S4 (11:32):
Um, yeah. Roland, earlier you mentioned the word abundant, not
just pro-life, but pro abundant life. Let's talk about that phrase.
And what makes you emphasize that and what what is
that communicating to you?

S1 (11:49):
Well, that really comes from John 1010, where Christ said,
I came that you might have life and then have
that life abundantly. And you know, Jesus in that, in
that passage is talking about two types of life. He's
talking about physical life, which is kind of the Greek
word bios, bios. But he's also talking about a unique
type of spiritual life that only comes from relationship with God,
which is Zoe. So essentially what he's basically saying is,

(12:11):
I came to link your bios to my Zoe that
you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound. And so
when I started this work with, with the pro-life movement,
and I realized that so much of the focus was
on bios, but not on Zoe. In other words, saving
the baby, if you will. It's gone. Ordering, of course.
But when you think about this from a Christian perspective,

(12:31):
it's not just about saving the baby. It's not just
about helping the woman. It goes way beyond that. We're
called for kids to not just have physical life, if
you will, but also to have eternal life, which means
that you've got to think about this issue in that way.
And so the insight God gave me in that moment
was that Jesus wasn't just pro-life, he was pro abundant life.

(12:53):
How do we know? Because he said, I came that
you might have life and have that life abundantly. And
so when God downloaded that into my head about, you know,
about ten years ago, and I started talking about that
and thinking about that and studying the Scripture that way,
I realized that there was a need to expand how
you think about this issue, so that you anchor it
fully in the call of Christ. Christ wasn't just pro-life,

(13:14):
he was pro abundant life. He said, I came to you.
I have life and have that life abundantly. And so, hey,
you can be an atheist and be pro-life because you're
solving for bias, but you can't be an atheist and
be pro abundant life because you're solving for bias. And
Zoe and I think as Christians, we're called to go
beyond just what an atheist would would be called to.
And that's really where the pro abundant life perspective comes

(13:36):
from and how it's laid out in the book. And
I explain that in more detail.

S4 (13:40):
Yeah, I like that. I like that very much. I
know that many, many women face this issue and sometimes,
you know, husband's involved and sometimes they're just they're single.
But what are some of the reasons that go through
a woman's mind that lead her to, to want an abortion?

S1 (14:02):
Well, it's interesting because, you know, going back to my
own situation and going back to the story of Mary
and Joseph, you know, what did God do to make
sure that Mary's unplanned pregnancy wasn't a crisis pregnancy? He
didn't give her a social services program. Right. What he
did was he called Joseph to be a husband to
her and a father to the child growing inside of her. See,
because Joseph, in a lot of ways, faced the same

(14:24):
dilemma as any abortion minded man. He had hopes for
his life, dreams for his life that didn't include a
child at this time and in this way. And he
actually had a plan. He was going to divorce her quietly.
And the angel comes to Joseph and says, what? Do
not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. In
other words, what you see in the story of the
birth of Christ in that nativity narrative is that God's
response to an unplanned pregnancy and the vulnerability of the

(14:47):
woman and the vulnerability of the child was what? To
create a family, to call the man, to step into
the role, to be a husband to her and a
father to the child growing inside of her. And I
would add, the first thing that God did, the angel
said to Joseph was, do not be afraid to take
Mary as your. What? Baby mama? No wife. So in
the story of Mary and Joseph, what you find is

(15:07):
two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and family as God
designed and the sanctity of life. And one of my
observations was, when you look at the life issue in
terms of how we've kind of looked at this for many,
many years, we focus on the sanctity of life, but
we didn't focus on the sanctity of marriage and family,
which is why in many cases, people focus on helping
the woman save the baby, but not engaging the man

(15:30):
and not calling him like God did to be a
husband to her and a father to the child growing
inside of her. And I'll just say, the data actually
shows the problem with that. 87% of the women that
have abortions are unmarried 87%. So you can explain to me,
how are you going to solve the abortion issue without
solving the sanctity of marriage and family issue? And we,

(15:51):
the people of the book should be very much focused
on that. And we kind of lost our way, in
my view, when we started to focus on this issue
from a perspective, in my view, that's not pro abundant life,
but just pro life. And so that's a key part
of being pro abundant life. That first pillar is God's
design for family, which means that you're not just trying
to save the baby, help the mother, but you're reaching

(16:12):
the father. You're engaging him. You're inspiring him. God sent
an angel to Joseph and called him into a role.
And in the same way, frankly, I was called into
the same role. My wife was in a similar dilemma.
And what was the reason why she was less likely
to have an abortion? Well, by God's grace, God called
to me in the same way to Joseph, to be
a husband to her and to the father, to the

(16:32):
child growing inside of her. Do you see? So this
is what it means to be pro abundant life. You're
expanding this perspective, but you're anchoring it in the nativity narrative,
in the first chapter of the first book of the
New Testament.

S4 (16:44):
Yeah. I'm just thinking of the fathers that might be
listening to us today who are out of wedlock, you know,
impregnated a woman. And how many of them were ever
challenged to become the husband and then the father of
that child?

S1 (17:03):
Well, you know, that's one of the problems. Candidly, I
think for many years we've treated men the same way
that the other side has treated them. Right. So the
guys sitting out in the parking lot at Planned Parenthood,
they don't want him to come in. They don't want
him to do that. They don't want to be involved
in this. It's her body. It's her choice. They want
him to act like Adam, right? Because really, if you
think about the first abortion act was actually in the

(17:23):
garden because she said, what? My body, my choice. In
other words, I'll take this fruit and do with it
what I want because I know what's better for me
than you do. And what did Adam do? He stood silent. Well,
that's the same thing that the evil one wants on
this issue. And frankly, when you actually look at the data,
you know, we did a national survey with LifeWay, and
we surveyed women who had abortions, and we asked them,
who did you talk to about your abortion decision? We

(17:45):
have a long list of folks, their mother, their best friend,
Planned Parenthood, all that. Number one was the father of
the baby guy who got her pregnant. Then we said,
who was the most influential in your decision to abort?
Guess who it was again? The father of the baby.
Did the same survey with Post-abortive men. Right. Ask them,
who did she talk to about the abortion decision? Same list.
He said me. Then ask them who was the most

(18:06):
influential in her decision to abort. Once again he said, me.
So here's the woman who has the abortion, the guy
who supported the abortion, both saying that he's the most
influential in the decision to abort. And yet, for years,
we've done nothing to really engage him in the same
way that God sent an angel, a direct like like
Joseph didn't get a Smurf or a gnome or something.

(18:27):
He got an angel just like Mary. It was an
equal call for him to step into that role. And
so being pro abundant life, you you're trying to build
a strong family. And if you build a strong family,
just like in our case, we faced one unplanned pregnancy.
We didn't return again to that same situation. Why? Because
we built a family. Isn't that what we want? Isn't

(18:48):
that the hope that we have? Isn't that what we're
called to do? I mean, the woman at the well,
Jesus met her how many times? Once because she was transformed.
And so I believe that if you have a pro
abundant life perspective, if you're focused on God's design for family,
which means you're trying to engage men, calling them into
the role of fatherhood, if you can, to the best
of your ability. And that needs to be a primary

(19:10):
initiative of any pro abundant life perspective and pro abundant
life approach.

S4 (19:14):
Yeah. That's powerful. Tell us about the chart that changed
things for you. The missing support chart.

S1 (19:22):
Oh, yes, I'm a business guy by training, so there's
got to be a chart. I've got an MBA that
got me a chart. And so when I first started
carrying it, I said, Lord, help me understand this issue
and I want to put it on one page. And
so I drew this chart which folks who get the
book will see. It changed my life. And basically what
the chart is called. It's support needed by mothers and children, physical, emotional,

(19:44):
spiritual and social support. And I drew out a graph
that basically kind of laid that out, the kind of
support that they need. And then at the sort of,
I guess the x axis of the chart really talks
about time conception all the way to birth and then
ongoing to your child's 18. And then I drew a
line to the right of that chart saying that support
needed by mothers and children increases over time. And I

(20:05):
realized that a woman is making the pregnancy decision from
conception to birth. But her real issue and challenge is
the missing support after birth. And if she can't solve
that missing support, she's much more likely to have the
the abortion. That's what the nurse was talking to my
wife about. How are you going to how are you

(20:26):
going to how are you going? And if a woman
can't solve that, even if you're loving her up quite
a bit from conception to birth, the reality is it's
about nine months and one second. Well, God is wise.
He has a design to give women the support that
they need from birth. Ongoing. It's called what? From conception
on going, which is called what? Husbands and fathers. That's
why women who have that. A guy who said that

(20:47):
to them are less likely to have an abortion. So
that chart really just framed everything for me. And from
a ministry model perspective, I realized that yes, we need
pregnancy centers to provide that initial support in those kind
of situations. But the reality is that if you walk
into a pregnancy center with a ten year old, there's
nothing they can do for you. Their support is limited here,

(21:07):
so you have to be doing a couple things. The
first thing is we have to be working aggressively to
engage men, which is what care nets affiliated pregnancy centers do.
And I lay that out in the book in great detail.
But then there's a second piece to that missing support,
which is the call of the church to step into
this issue in a very significant way, beyond the way
that it's been framed in the past.

S4 (21:29):
I want us to talk about that later on, for sure,
because I think it's desperately needed. And I think many
churches and leaders wrestle with how how do they best
get involved in this? Let me go to another subject.
What has the abortion pill done to this whole issue?

S1 (21:47):
Well, it's changed it dramatically. You know, as a business guy,
when I first came to this work, you know, I
looked at, you know, Planned Parenthood and the abortion providers,
not just through ministry glasses. So you can see that
there's destruction of life and all of that. But I
put my business glasses on and I realized this is
a consumer marketing company. They believe that abortion is a
morally neutral consumer product that women want and need. And

(22:10):
I realized that they have a problem in that their
product distribution was limited to the physical location. In other words,
it wasn't mobile, it wasn't mobile. And frankly, we actually
had an advantage because no one ever walks into a
pregnancy center and goes, I saw the the accent wall,
the window treatments and everything. I knew I could never
abort my baby. They always say it's because of how

(22:32):
I was loved and people are mobile. So we had
the ability to even turn a Starbucks into a pregnancy
center because we can reach people and love them there. Well,
as a business person, I look at this, said they
got a problem and they know they got a problem.
So they need to figure out a way to delink
their product and their service from the physical location. Thus
the abortion pill. And it's been very aggressive in terms

(22:52):
of how they've marketed this. So now, you know, about 63%
of abortions are now through the pill. They've been able
to turn every apartment room, dorm room, bathroom, bedroom into
an abortion clinic overnight because of the abortion pill. It's
an absolute game changer. And for business people, which is
the way they think about this. If you think abortion

(23:12):
is a morally neutral consumer product that women want in need,
you're going to approach this like Pepsi or Coca Cola,
or like anybody else who sells a consumer product that
you think folks should have. And so that's created an
enormous opportunity for us, but also a challenge in some
ways as well.

S4 (23:27):
Yeah. Well, you know, I found that there are there
are some people who admit, you know, that an unborn
child is a human being. And yet they say, but
the mother's rights trumped the child's rights. Talk about that.
You mentioned a little bit about that earlier, but talk
about that.

S1 (23:47):
Yeah, I really do. I think that, you know, when
you start to have that perspective where you're not actually
looking at the baby in the womb as a life,
and you or you say it's a life worth sacrificing, right?
You actually move yourself into a perspective that you're saying
that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should

(24:08):
determine its value and worth. So, for example, I'm a
black man like this all day, right? Slaveholders never were
confused about the fact that black people were human. They
just believed that they were life worth sacrificing for their
for their wealth. It's the same thing that's happened. It's
the same thing that's happening here, right? And so there's
a parallel between between those two things. And so the

(24:30):
transformation that needs to happen in people's hearts and minds
is that you need to start having those discussions with
people to say, wait a minute. Do you believe that
the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should determine
its value and worth? Now, I think as a culture
and a society, we rejected that. Like, that's why babies
who were born out of wedlock used to be called
illegitimate or bastards or whatever, right? We don't do that anymore. Why?

(24:51):
Because we say no. What? The circumstances of a child's
conception and birth should not determine its value and worth.
And when you have that perspective, you actually line yourself
up with people throughout history who have done the most inhumane,
most abhorrent things in the human, in the human condition.
And so really having that conversation with folks is important.
I think the other thing that kind of links into

(25:13):
this is that people have a perception about how life begins,
and we start to think about life as, as if
it actually is constructed as opposed to it develops. In
other words, like a baby is not like a Tesla
coming off an assembly line. Like you ask yourself a question,
when does a Tesla actually become a Tesla? I mean,
when does it when they put the wheels on the
nameplate and win? Well, the reality is never intrinsically a Tesla. Why?

(25:36):
Because at any moment you can take it and turn
it into a toaster and some rubber floor mats. Right?
Babies are not constructed in the womb. They develop in
the womb in the same way that a Polaroid picture
develops when you first take the picture, it's just a
black blob. But in the fullness of time it develops.
And guess what else? It can't be anything else. So

(25:57):
when you think about this, your conception and birth should
not determine your value and worth. We don't even believe
that even pro-choice people don't even believe that. But what
they've done, they've dehumanized the baby so that that framework
that they have in other situations. They don't apply to
this situation. And that's how you end up with people saying, well,
the rights of the rights of this versus the rights
of that.

S2 (26:21):
You're listening to the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
You can find out more about our guest and featured
resource at Building Relationships. Rolland Warren is joining us. He's
the CEO and president of Care Net. His latest book
is titled The Alternative to Abortion Why We Must be
Pro Abundant Life. Just go to building relationships.

S4 (26:47):
Ronald, what do you say to the woman who believes
that men have no right to have an opinion or
a voice in this whole debate?

S1 (26:56):
Yeah, this is one of the one of sort of
the classic challenges that we have around this issue. And
it's built on sort of a framework that says that
if a person is not as intimately affected by a
particular situation. They have no agency in that situation. And
that's sort of a flawed logic when you think about it.
Because if a person is impacted by a situation, they

(27:19):
should have agency. For example, one of the analogies I
use or illustrations I use with folks is a woman
who's a stay at home mom. Should she have any
say about tax policy? A person who doesn't own a gun?
Should they have any say about gun policy? Someone who
doesn't have children in school? Should they have any input
in terms of a situation with school funding or a
senator who is in Oklahoma? Should they have any say

(27:42):
about what happens with things in other parts of the country?
And in all those cases, you say, well, of course
they do. Why? Because they're impacted by that in the
same way the father of the child. Right. Even though
they're obviously not as connected to the issue because they're
not carrying the child, they still are impacted by that.
And the reality is that if you didn't have this perspective,

(28:02):
I always tell people all the time, I'm glad we
have that perspective, because the argument that you're making there
is the same argument that the South was making during
slavery time. They were saying to the North, look, no slaves,
no say this argument is no womb, no say. They
were saying to the North, no slaves, no say, but
what do we say? Well, there's an injustice happening here.
So even though we don't have slaves, we still have

(28:23):
an obligation and a responsibility to get involved when there's
an injustice. It's the same thing here. So men should
not take the bait on that. And frankly, the culture
shouldn't take the bait. If someone is affected by a decision,
we want them to have agency in terms of that,
especially when there's an injustice that's taking place, which is
exactly what's happening with the abortion issue, in the same

(28:43):
way that that was happening with the slavery issue.

S4 (28:47):
A reporter once asked if Carenet, the organization that we're
talking about today, was more for the women or for
the baby. What did you how did you answer that question?

S6 (28:58):
Yeah, it's very interesting.

S1 (29:00):
I was asked that and I asked I told the reporter,
I said, it's like you're asking, am I more for
breathing in or for breathing out? Right. I mean, they're
both essential to life. I mean, I reject that entire
framework because it really, you know, kind of led us
down a path that actually excluded men from this conversation.
Because when the pro-choice movement sort of brought the issue
to the public square with the with the role decision,

(29:23):
they basically said, this issue is about a woman and
then a question mark. And then they started defining the
question mark as about the product of conception choice. It's complicated.
And they defined it over time. And then we sort
of responded and said, no, no, it's about the baby.
We have to save the baby. And then eventually the
pro-choice movement said, well, you know, you don't care about women,
you just care about saving babies. And then and then

(29:44):
we respond to know we care about women plus babies.
And so for many people today, the issue is basically
one side. It's a woman plus a question mark, which
has been kind of devalued, if you will, or gone
from something that's immutable to something that's changeable and flexible.
And the other side of the argument, the pro-life argument,
is about a woman plus a baby. But when you
look at that framework, someone's excluded from that, which is

(30:05):
the guy. And so I told I told the reporter,
I reject your entire framing. I think that this issue
has two sanctities the sanctity of marriage and family and
the sanctity of life. And when you have look at
the issue that way, which is a pro abundant life
way of looking at this issue, what you find is
that men are included in that because you cannot have
God's design for family without men. And as I talked

(30:27):
about earlier, look at the solution that you have there,
because 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried. And,
you know the other thing, too, you know, when you
ask me the question about men in this issue, you know,
the reality is that the evil one knows the role
that a man can play in saving the life. That's
why Adam was compelled to be silent. That's why at

(30:48):
an abortion clinic, these men are compelled not to come,
not to be involved because they know what God knows.
That when a man steps in and taps into his
inner Joseph, that lives are transformed, that there's not just life,
but abundant life. Jesus was given not just life in
his humanity, but abundant life in his humanity and then

(31:09):
became abundant life for us all. So God has a design,
a design for family that includes men and very engaged.
And also God has a design for life which includes men.
They are part of the production of life, and they're
supposed to be there not just from conception but ongoing,
which is God's design for family, which the evil one
wants to thwart.

S4 (31:28):
What about the father who says to the woman that
he has impregnated? Well, the decision is yours. You know,
whatever decision you make is fine with me.

S1 (31:37):
Yeah. You know, it sounds like that that is an
affirming decision. But the reality is, the way that women
hear that is not that that he's taking responsibility. And unfortunately,
in the culture, we've kind of told men that that's
the responsible thing to say. But she knows that that's
not the responsible thing to say. I mean, think about
it this way. I always tell folks, if a woman
tells a guy that she's pregnant. It's not because she

(31:59):
wants to hear. I support what decision you make. She
knows that. The reality is she doesn't need his support.
And frankly, if she truly, truly, truly wanted to have
the abortion, she probably wouldn't tell him why. She wouldn't
want any pressure. I believe that when a woman tells
a guy that she's pregnant, in most of these cases,
there's the pregnant pause and she's waiting for the response.

(32:20):
I think she's hoping against hope that he will respond
to her in the same way that Joseph responded to Mary,
hoping against hope. Otherwise, why tell him? Why tell him?
So that's one of the things that we encourage folks
in the pregnancy centers to do. You know, when, when,
when you ask the woman, well, you know, does the
father know? And if she says, well, yes or no,
if she says, well, no, he doesn't. Well, why didn't
you tell him? And if she says yes, he does.

(32:42):
He does. Why did you tell him? I guarantee you
it's not because she was just hoping and praying. He
would say, I support whatever decision you make. That's a
non-answer answer. And every woman knows at that moment that
she's all alone, that she's facing this mountain of missing support.
And that's what leads too often to the abortion decision.

S4 (33:00):
Earlier we talked about the role of the church in
all of this. And I know that there are pastors
who really draw back from publicly talking about this whole
issue because they don't want to offend their congregation and
because different members might have different ideas on this. What
would you say to pastors today?

S1 (33:21):
Well, I think one of the the challenges that pastors have,
and a lot of ways, I think, frankly, the pro-life
movement in a sense, or advocacy approach to this issue
actually framed this. We we essentially took the issue and
we gave it to the politics in a lot of ways.
We sort of exchanged the pulpit for the podium and
we gave it to the politics. And so for so
many folks, the issue in the church is viewed as

(33:45):
a political issue rather than being viewed in a biblical sense.
You know, one of the things I do, I talk
to a lot of pastors, and I remember some years
ago I was in Texas, a lot of pro-life pastors,
and I said to him, how many became pastors because
you wanted to overturn Roe v Wade? No one raised
their hand. I said, okay, how many became pastors because
you wanted to end abortion in your lifetime? Nobody raised
their hand. Then I said, how many became pastors because

(34:06):
you wanted to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, to
make disciples for Jesus Christ? Every hand shot up in
that moment, God gave me an insight that unless pastors
see this issue as connected to the call of the
actual central call of the church, it's an issue that
they care about, but it's not the core mission of
the church. It's not connected that way. So you have

(34:27):
Sanctity of Life Sunday, but not sanctity of life every day.
So one of the things I lay out in the
book is that the way you really should be thinking
about the life issue is through the two great kind
of bookends of the Christian faith, the Great Commandment and
the Great Commission. All Jesus did was walk out living
out the great Commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. That's
the call of every Christian, every pastor, for your flock

(34:47):
is to help them live out the great commandment to
fulfill the Great Commission. Well, abortion is connected to the
Great Commandment and the Great Commission. Why? Because in Luke 1027,
where a lawyer comes to Jesus and says, what must
I do to inherit the kingdom of God? What does
he say? Well, love God with all your heart, your soul,
your strength, and your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. Well,
the word for love there is agape, which is sacrificial love.

(35:08):
And the word for neighbor in the Greek means near
one or near fellow. Well, a woman who's pregnant, the
child inside of her is her nearest near one. It's
near in terms of proximity and it's near in terms
of relationship. And the same with the guy who got
her pregnant. So abortion actually is a violation of the
great commandment. Why? Because killing your neighbor is not an
act of love for God, love for neighbor, or frankly,

(35:31):
love for self. And so I think when you start
to talk about the issue that when you say, well,
wait a minute, the reason we are focused on the
life issue is because we're, we're we're called to live
out the great commandment. And loving the neighbor is part
of that process. And the woman has a neighbor. She
is our neighbor. A and she's caring a neighbor inside
of her, and the guy is connected as well. So

(35:53):
when we engage on this issue, it's to follow the
mandate of Christ to live out the Great Commandment. And
it's also connected to the Great Commission. Why we're supposed
to make disciples of who? Our neighbors. Well, who's your
first discipleship community? As a parent? Your children. Killing one
of your children is not an act of discipleship. So
the abortion issue, it's a violation of the Great Commandment

(36:16):
and the Great Commission. Do you see? And those are
the two bookends of the Christian faith. And I don't
care if you call yourself a progressive Christian or this Christian.
Everyone's called to live out the great commandment to fulfill
the Great Commission. And I really believe that when you
start to talk about this issue that way, it challenges
those in the church, even who are pro-choice, even who
call themselves pro-choice. Why? Because folks who are pro-choice and

(36:40):
Christians as well, they also they love the great commandment. Why?
Because all their social justice work is all built on what?
The great commandment? Loving your neighbor. So I really believe
that as you talk about the issue that way from
the pulpit and say we support the life issue because
we are followers of Christ, and he gave us two mandates.
Live out the great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission.

(37:00):
And we do that in every area of of our
ministry water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes
for the naked, homes for the homeless, all viewed as
great commandment, great commission issues. Well, compassion for the pregnant
is a great commandment and great commission issue as well.

S4 (37:16):
You know, I think what you've just said every pastor
needs to hear, and I hope if their listeners today
who are concerned about this issue, that you will get
a copy of this book and give it to your pastor,
because I think if a pastor reads this book and
understands the things we're talking about today, they're going to

(37:36):
be more empowered in their own heart to to address
these issues more in a more direct and meaningful way. Well,
and why is the approach of negotiation based on weeks
of gestation, which we hear about? Why is that flawed?

S1 (37:53):
Well, it's flawed for a couple of reasons. Uh, well,
one is that the the time frame that is typically
being used 15 weeks, 96% of abortions happen before that.
In fact, the data that just came out from the
CDC shows that that the majority of abortions happen before
13 weeks. The abortion pill has to be used before
ten weeks. So actually, if you if you are negotiating

(38:16):
from a 15 week perspective, you actually have already ceded
the argument. And then 20 weeks, which is where a
lot of other folks are talking pain-capable that stuff, or
late term abortion, if you will. Only 1% of abortions
happen after that. So the reality is that talking about
from a week space perspective, you've already ceded the argument
to the other side. But the other reason it's a
problem is because it undermines the core argument that the

(38:40):
child is created in the image of God. It's like
a incremental approach that undermines your core argument is not
an incremental approach that you should be using. Like there
are some incremental approaches like, you know, uh, parental notification.
That's an incremental approach that you can use. There's some
other ones. But when you start negotiating based on weeks,
you're actually saying that you're undermining the basic argument. And

(39:03):
by the way, the pro-choice side does not do that.
And they've never negotiated. Why? Because they believe that this
issue is based on a woman's bodily autonomy. And so
when you ask them, okay, it's based on bodily autonomy. Absolutely.
So when can we restrict abortion? They say never. Why?
Because as you heard, Kamala Harris and others say, look,
this is a fundamental right now. Then you come to

(39:24):
our side and we say, okay, this image, this issue
is based on, you know, Imago Dei. And then then
they say to us, well, well, when can we, you know,
allow abortions? Then we say, what, six weeks, 15 weeks,
20 weeks? Do you see the problem? I can't think
of a single movement that has ever made progress by
abandoning their convictions, by moving from a commitment to their

(39:46):
convictions to a commitment to the compromise of their convictions.
And I believe strongly this is one of the reasons
why we have not had the success. No one is
drawn to a movement, if you will, that's abandoning its conviction,
that's compromising its convictions. And we and we've done that
over time when we get into a kind of a
weak argument. And frankly, it has a lot to do

(40:07):
with the fact that the issue's been given to the
political perspective, which is negotiating around which is willing to
negotiate around things, as opposed to the moral perspective that
is led by the pulpit. Yeah, it's a non-negotiable, because
why children are created in the image of God, their
imago day. It's not negotiable. A child cannot have partial life.

(40:29):
They can either have life or death. And we need
to be thinking about this issue the same way. And
we need to be speaking about it that way in
the church. And as Christians, we need to have that conviction,
because that's a conviction that's connected to the word of
God and and the mandate that he's given us.

S4 (40:45):
The whole issue of rape and incest. How do you
deal with those situations?

S1 (40:50):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I've got a whole
section in the book where I talk about that, and
it does really go back to the issue of the
circumstances of a child's conception and birth, should it determine
their value and their worth. And I also have a
framework in the book where I talk about compassion pairing.
Like how do we apportion compassion? Because it is one
of the most difficult situations that anyone can face. And

(41:13):
a lot of folks, you know, who will answer that
question say, well, you know, it's less than 1% of
abortions are through that. But for the woman that it
happens to, it's 100% for her. So we have to
have the utmost compassion for her. But when you think
about how we apportion compassion, we ask a question. We say,
who's the more powerful, who's the more vulnerable? And then
we apportion compassion based on that. So in this situation,

(41:34):
that's what I do with compassion pairing. You compare the
woman to the baby. You say, who's the more powerful?
Who's the more vulnerable? And then how do you apportion compassion?
And from a pro-life perspective, and frankly, typically in a perspective,
we say, well, the woman's more powerful, obviously, because the
abortion is a power issue. It's her empowerment, and the
baby's more vulnerable. And although you have compassion for the woman,
you have more compassion for the baby. And so you

(41:56):
give the baby life because the reality is, if you
don't view it that way, you actually are more compassionate
for the rapist. If you the compassion pairing between the
rapist and the baby and you say, who's the more
powerful between the rapist and the baby? You say, well,
the rapist is more powerful. The baby is more vulnerable.
But which one dies in the abortion decision? The rapists
know the baby. Yes. And so really, when you start

(42:19):
to think about it through that lens, you realize that, look,
the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not
determine its value and worth. And with so many women
who have carried their children to term, they've realized the
exact thing that I'm talking about. They've refused to allow
the rapist to extend his power through them, to allow

(42:40):
them to basically do something where they're taking the life
of the vulnerable. They refuse to let him have that
kind of power over him. And so when you hear
women who've been raped and bring their children into the world,
that's what they say. That's why they do that. They
understand instinctively. They do a compassion pairing between the rapist
and the baby growing inside of them, as difficult as
it is. And they say, no, no, I'm not going

(43:00):
to have more compassion for the rapists by killing this child,
because then that would make me more like him. And
I refuse to allow him to have that kind of
power over me. And that's why these these women are,
are blessed. And that's why they we call them blessed
when they when they make that kind of very, very
difficult decision.

S4 (43:17):
Yeah. Your wife wrote an open letter to college bound women.
Can you tell us a little bit about what she said?

S1 (43:27):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. My wife's a Texas woman.
It's a Texas girl. And there was a young lady
who was valedictorian, and she was giving her speech and
and she basically hijacked the the event to kind of
give a speech about abortion. And basically her argument was that, look,
if you want to have your hopes and your dreams
going forward, we have to have abortion. And so my wife,

(43:49):
you know, wrote an open letter to her and the other, uh,
young young women in the audience, but also just for
women in general, saying, listen, I've been where you've been,
but you've never been where I've been. You don't have
to sacrifice your child for your hopes and your dreams.
My wife is very accomplished. She went to Princeton undergrad,
did very well there. Uh, went to Temple Medical School,

(44:09):
was chief resident of her program. Was a major in
the military. I mean, she's just amazingly accomplished. But she
will tell you that the decision to bring our son
into the world is the thing that she's most proud of.
And and as one who's talked to so many women
who made the opposite decision and now have the degrees
and all the other other things, but they have tremendous

(44:31):
regret because we know that that when we are most
like God is when we sacrifice ourselves for the vulnerable,
which is exactly what Christ did for us, right? He
emptied himself of his power. He cloaked himself in vulnerability. Right.
He cloaked himself. And we and he had compassion for us,
and we know that. And so when a woman like
my wife makes this decision, that's exactly what she's doing.

(44:55):
She's more like Christ than anything else, that when we
are compassionate for the vulnerable, that's when we're most like God.
And so we want to encourage women to, to, to
do that. And that's why in the book there's a
bunch of QR codes for certain parts of the book.
These frameworks I have that apologetic on, like, is the
pro-choice position consistent with the life and teachings of Christ?
You can just use your phone QR code that just

(45:17):
send that to someone else, and that letter is one
of the pieces in there that you can do. Send
that to someone who's about to head off to college,
or someone who's facing a pregnancy decision when they're in
college or high school. There's someone who's made this decision
and who's been able to move forward. and I really
think that her example is just such a wonderful example
of that.

S4 (45:34):
Yeah. Powerful. Well, Rolland, as we wrap up today, uh,
do you have hope that hearts are changing on the
issue of abortion? And how can our listeners be more involved?

S1 (45:47):
Well, I do, but, you know, my focus really is
the hearts have to change in the church first. Um,
I one of the first things that I saw that
just really concerned me was when I looked at the
data when I first started, was that 65% of the
women who had abortions professed to be either Catholic or Protestant.
The Guttmacher data now says about 54%. And I don't
think it's because less Christians are having abortions, but because

(46:09):
there's less folks maybe calling themselves Christians. But we have
an enormous issue in the church. It's the log in
our eye versus the speck in the culture's eye. So
you have to start with the church. Jesus didn't start
with the Samaritans, the Greeks and all these other folks.
He started with the people of the book. And so
we actually need to change abortion in the church. So
that's why if you read the book, there are ministry

(46:30):
models that we have, like our Making Life Disciples ministry model,
which is designed to get folks in the church to
create networks, to be able to to support women and
men in the church who are facing pregnancy decisions and
connect to those who are outside the church, who are
facing pregnancy decisions. We have to first change the church
on the life issue first, and I think it's one

(46:50):
of the things that's been neglected for years and years
and years. The fact that so many Christians are aborting
as well. It's one of the reasons when you look
at the politics, it's the same kind of thing. The, the,
the state referendums that are passing the margin of difference
is pro-choice Christians. So we have to start there. And
one of the illustrations I use with folks that really

(47:11):
kind of illustrate this point. You know, when Jesus was
standing before Pilate, Pilate saying, I find no fault in
Christ and all that kind of stuff, but eventually what
did he do? He turned to the crowd. Because every
politician faces Pilate's dilemma, which is will I give the
people what will make them happy, even if I'm a
sacrifice too vulnerable to do so. Every politician faces that now.
If you want to change the politics, how do you

(47:33):
do it? Well, you change the crowd. Well, who in
the crowd do you start with? And I tell people,
imagine you were in the crowd and you were yelling, Jesus, Jesus!
And everybody else is yelling Barabbas. And you say, how
do I change this crowd? And now the corner of
your eye, you see Bartimaeus, the blind beggar that Jesus healed,
and you see that he's yelling Barabbas! What would you do?
You go over to him and say, Bartimaeus, dude, what
are you doing? And you know him? And he said, well,

(47:55):
the crowd and this and the other, you said, yell
with me. Jesus. You know how he lived out the
great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission in your life?
And he begins to yell, Jesus! And then you see
out of the corner of your eye, it's the woman
with the issue of blood. In other words, the people
that you have to start with in the crowd are
the people who know him, the people who know him.
And that's really what my book is focused on. First,

(48:16):
mobilizing the church to be, the church inside the church
on the life issue. And then we will have removed
the log in our eyes so we can see the
speck in the culture's eye. They have the transformation. Transformation
starts in the church to the culture, not the other
way around. And that's the difference between being pro-life and
pro abundant life. And why the alternative to abortion? Why

(48:36):
we Must be Pro Abundant Life is a book that I've,
you know, written, and why God kind of downloaded this
into my brain.

S4 (48:43):
And I want to thank you for not only being
with us today on this program, but for writing this book.
I think it's going to be helpful to many of
our listeners. And I just want to reiterate what I
said earlier. Uh, if you're in a church, uh, can
I just challenge you to not only get a copy
of this book for yourself, but buy one and give
it to your pastor? Because I think most pastors are

(49:06):
they're open. They're they're looking for voices to speak into
this issue. And this book can be a tremendous help
to any pastor. So thanks again for being with us today.
And may God continue to give you wisdom in the
ministry that you're involved in.

S1 (49:20):
Thank you so much, and thank you for having me
on the show. Appreciate it so much.

S3 (49:24):
Well, what an important conversation about a divisive issue. Thank
you for hearing Roland Warren's perspective on this. And if
you want to read more, check out the book at
the website Building Relationships. The title is The Alternative to
Abortion Why We Must be Pro Abundant Life. You'll find
it at Building Relationships. And next week, our summer best

(49:47):
of broadcasts continue with the topic that is on the
hearts and minds of a lot of struggling parents. How
do you do life with your adult children? Help and
hope is coming in one week.

S2 (49:58):
A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick
and Janice backing. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is
a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.