The Hospitality of Need | Kevan Chandler and Tommy Shelton

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:01):
Well, what can happen when we invite others into our lives,
hardships and all?

S2 (00:06):
It helped me understand what Jesus was doing in these moments.
You know, when he asked for people to serve him.

S3 (00:12):
We just want people to fall in love more and
more with Jesus through the stories in this book and
through what they experience as they try this approach to life.

S1 (00:27):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times bestseller The Five Love Languages. Our
guest today believe that too often our needs are perceived
as either burdens to shamefully hide or idols before which
everything else must bow. Our featured resource today is the
hospitality of need. You can find out more at Building Relationships.

S4 (00:50):
Kevin Chandler and Tommy Shelton will join us. Straight ahead.
The subtitle of the book says it all how depending
on one another helps us heal and grow together. And Gary,
I think you've probably seen this at work in your
ministry through the years, am I right?

S5 (01:07):
Well, that's for sure, Chris. You know, Christian life was
not designed to be lived in isolation. We're part of
a family. And any emphasis that we can make in
that area is certainly important today. And more important today,
I think, than even, you know, 30 years ago. So
I'm really excited about our discussion today. I think this

(01:28):
is going to be a conversation and a book that's
going to help lots of people.

S4 (01:33):
I do too. Let's meet our guests. Kevin Chandler, it's
Kevin with an A. Kevin. Kevin is the founder of
the nonprofit We Carry Kevin, and he speaks worldwide about
friendship and disability. He's married to Katie. His co-author of
this book that we're featuring today is Tommy Shelton, who
grew up the son of a pastor and is now
a pastor himself of Live Oaks Bible Church in Palm Harbor, Florida.

(01:57):
He loves his wife and six children and at building relationships.
You'll see their book, The Hospitality of Need how, depending
on one another, helps us heal and grow together. Just
go to building relationships.

S5 (02:12):
Well, Kevin and Tommy, welcome to Building Relationships.

S2 (02:15):
Thank you.

S3 (02:16):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having us.

S2 (02:18):
It's a pleasure.

S5 (02:19):
Well, we're glad that you're with us today. Kevin, let
me start with you. Uh, there's a back story that
led you to write a book like this. Tell us
that backstory.

S3 (02:29):
Yeah. So, uh, in 2016, some friends and I went
to Europe, and, um. That doesn't sound that crazy at first,
but I grew up in a with a disability that
puts me in a power wheelchair and fully dependent on others.

(02:50):
And so for us to go to Europe, we had
to leave my wheelchair behind because everything we wanted to
do was not accessible in the traditional sense. And so
my friends took turns for three weeks carrying me on
their backs in a specially designed backpack. And, um, I
wrote a book about that experience, and I've gotten to

(03:13):
speak about it all over the world and share our story.
But from there, a lot of people have asked kind
of a follow up question. Um, they they say, well,
how do you do this? How do you invite people
into your life in this way? The short version is,
where did you get these friends? And, uh, and so

(03:35):
I knew that that wasn't going to be a five step,
you know, here's how you make friends kind of book.
It's it's not exactly a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
Everyone's different. And everyone goes about this differently based on
their own experience. But I knew that I could Share
more of my story because it wasn't just those three weeks.

(03:57):
It's been now 39 years of life of inviting people
into my need and having them come alongside me. And
and I've gotten to see friendships go deep because of
that need and, and asking people to be part of it.
And so this book is really born out of that

(04:18):
desire to share those stories. And I'm really going through
the whole thing. My goal, my desire was to celebrate
the friendships and the friends that have made my life possible.

S5 (04:33):
Yeah. Well, with that background, no question about it. You
are qualified to write a book like this. Thank you. So, Tommy,
tell us about your relationship with Kevin and what he
means to you.

S2 (04:46):
Well. Yes, sir. So for as long as I've known Kevin,
I would. I would have called him a friend. We
met when I was 16 or 17, in Winston-Salem. His
mother was a part of a little drama organization, part
of the Salem Pregnancy Support Center, and we would go
around to schools and do these abstinence plays and things.
So when I'm 16, I meet Kevin, this little awesome dude,

(05:08):
you know, kind of wheeling around and, uh, my a
friend of mine and I had a radio show in town,
so I've always known. I mean, it's what I'm 47,
so go back 30 years and I've known Kevin. But
in these last few years, this amazing thing happened. And
God's sovereign plan, of course, is always so far ahead

(05:29):
of ours and beyond our comprehension. But I had all
these prayers about the kind of disciple of Jesus. I
wanted to be the kind of pastor I wanted to be.
My father's a pastor. Uh, just a just an amazing, humble,
shepherding pastor. And I knew who I wanted to be.
And then Kevin, we stayed in touch and we got
a little closer, but. But when he invited me into
writing this book with him. Um, he really went from, like,

(05:52):
buddy to friend and and now really brother. And I
don't say that lightly. And I can see God's hand actually,
through Kevin and through the opportunity of writing this book,
really answering a lot of those prayers for for my
own life. And because it wasn't just a remote, you know,
word writing gig that Kevin invited me into, I had

(06:15):
little idea of what he actually was inviting me into
in writing this book, because we got to spend time
together and travel together and, uh, the opportunity to, to
help Kevin and all of his physical needs was a
real integral part of even the process of writing the book.
So Kevin's a brother to me now, and it's like
the damage has been done. Can't go back now. So

(06:36):
we are regardless of what happens with this book, we
are we are brothers, uh, really knitted together by the
sovereignty of God. So yeah. What what doesn't my relationship
with Kevin mean Me now?

S5 (06:48):
Yeah. That's great. That is great. Where did the title
come from and what is the significance of the title?

S3 (06:55):
You know, this is actually even back before Tommy was
part of the book. I think by the time, by
the time he came into it, we had the title
in place. And, um, I think that probably helped some,
but I was wrestling with what the book would look like.
I had these stories, but I didn't really have a
focal point so much, and I was part of a

(07:19):
men's group. I had shared my testimony one one week,
and in that group, after someone shares their testimony, the
men gather around and pray over that person. And and
in that prayer time, uh, a friend of mine thanked
God for blessing me with the gift of the hospitality

(07:40):
of need, and I didn't really know what that meant,
but I thought it was a an interesting phrase. And, uh,
the next few weeks, I kind of sat on that idea,
the hospitality of need. And I have different guys come
every morning to get me up, and we get to
have some interesting conversations. And so I started asking them

(08:03):
what it meant to them. And, uh, through that, uh,
we just really realized that there is an aspect, a
character of hospitality that can be found in our needs.
If we look for it, there's an opportunity to step
into something together through our needs. That was where the

(08:24):
title came from and it really took off from there.

S5 (08:27):
Yeah, well, I really like the title. I think it's
very appropriate. The hospitality of need, how, depending on one another,
helps us heal and grow together.

S2 (08:37):
We actually wrestled with the title a little bit, just
some some feedback that we got from people that weren't
immediately familiar with the whole point of the book. We're saying,
I don't know that that title is a little confusing.
So we we took an honest look at it and
we tried, I don't know, Kevin, a hundred different possible titles.
And we just, just this is this is what the

(08:57):
book has to be called, whether it jumps off the
shelf or not. It just has to be called this.

S6 (09:03):
Yeah, yeah.

S5 (09:04):
Kevin, what does your everyday life look like in the
context of this book?

S3 (09:11):
You know, I mentioned earlier that I'm in a power wheelchair.
I require a lot of help with everyday things, basically
anything that involves weight bearing. So using the restroom or
getting dressed or showering, um, cutting up food, sometimes eating
if my arms are tired, um, you know, getting a

(09:33):
book off the shelf and getting it cracked open to read. And, uh,
and so there's not a moment that goes by in
the day where write independent. Really? And, um. So what
that looks like, uh, it looks like different things in
different seasons of life. But, uh, now being married, it
what it looks like is that, um, we have a

(09:57):
different friend come over each morning to get me out
of bed, get ready for the day, and then, um,
my wife helps out throughout the day with caregiving if
I need a restroom break or something like that. And
then whenever we travel to speak, we sometimes take someone
with us, like Tommy. We've gone on some road trips

(10:19):
together to for him to help with my caregiving and
and so that's kind of what it looks like from
the the bird's eye view, the 30,000 foot view. But, um,
what it looks like more intimately is that I get
to spend each morning with a different guy that I
care a lot about, and I get to have this

(10:42):
hour and a half, two hours of quality time. Getting
to hear about their life, them getting to hear about mine,
really connecting in a way that I don't think a
lot of guys get to experience. You know, most of
us usually have 1 or 2 of those kinds of friends. And, um,
because of my need, the Lord has blessed me with

(11:03):
10 or 12 of those relationships. And so that's been
really a profound thing. And then, uh, again, my wife
and I, because of my need, we get these touch
points throughout the day where we really get to have
this quiet, you know, eye to eye moment that I
think is strengthened and deepened our, our, uh, marriage in

(11:27):
profound ways and just a short amount of time.

S5 (11:31):
Yeah. Well, I think there's no question about it. There
are many men in our country who have no friends.
I mean, no one really close to them. I remember
I was writing a book on friendship, a cross-cultural friendship,
and I saw a man in the restaurant eating by himself,

(11:51):
and it looked like a businessman. He had a suit on,
and I said, I walked up to him. I said,
excuse me. I said, I'm doing some research on cross-cultural friendships.
I said, uh, could I ask you a personal question?
He said, sure. I said, uh, do you have a
close personal friend of a different race or culture? He

(12:12):
thought a moment and he said, I don't have a
friend of mine in my own race and culture. And
I think what his answer, if many men were honest,
they would say what he said. I don't have a
friend like that. So, uh, that's amazing. You know, the
author of Every Moment Holy writes this in the foreword

(12:36):
of your book, I'm quoting here. Community is what happens
when we move toward need. Toward weakness, toward brokenness, or
when we allow others to move toward our need, our weakness,
and our brokenness. Explain that.

S3 (12:58):
Yeah. I'm really thankful to to Doug for writing that forward.
And I feel like it's a great ushering into the
idea of the rest of the book. And in that foreword,
he talks about his own experience of really trying to
intentionally build community through getting a small group together for

(13:19):
dinner once a week, you know, kind of a social thing. And, um,
and after a while, it kind of petered out and
they realized it wasn't working and they couldn't figure out why.
And then to juxtapose that, he went to visit a
family whose son had been in an accident and was

(13:40):
severely disabled, and the church had come around this family,
and it was everything from someone building, you know, medical
equipment that they couldn't afford. Someone in the church saying, well,
I think I could build that and set it up
in your garage. Everything from that to people dropping off
groceries or just coming to sit with the son and

(14:04):
keep him company. And and this wasn't just for a
few weeks. This was years after the accident. And Doug
got to experience what real community looked like. And he
realized that it came out of not a social gathering,
but out of getting into those trenches or inviting people

(14:25):
into your trenches and and really stepping into other's weaknesses
and needs and brokenness, as you said. And that's where
the real connection happens. And and it's a really beautiful thing.

S5 (14:40):
Yeah. You know, I think many people are willing if
they see a need, they're willing to step into it,
but sometimes they're unaware of the need. And that's where
the person who has the need has to take the
initiative sometimes to invite people open the door into their lives.

(15:01):
You know, in the book, you go back and forth
between personal stories and a kind of biblical commentary. What
was the thought process behind this?

S3 (15:12):
Tommy and I had this conversation the other day, and
I shared with him an aspect that I had all
these stories from my own life of seeing how need
could be an opportunity for depth and growth in relationship.
And I wanted to also show how we see Jesus
using his human need to care for others. And yet, really,

(15:38):
I invited Tommy in because I knew that he would
be good at sharing those aspects. But also, I felt
weird about sharing it myself, because then it might sound like,
here's my story and here's Jesus's. And we're we're I'm
trying to be like Jesus, but we're not the same. So, um,
but but yeah, I'd love to hear Tommy's thoughts on

(15:59):
on the biblical side of it as well.

S2 (16:02):
Yeah. So in the macro, like in the, in the
wider view and, and I can be a bit of
an overthinker and certainly I can be a bit of
an over talker. But here's one of the parts that
really delightfully surprised me in agreeing to, to take part
in writing the book. And it at first I was like, oh,
do some Bible commentary. Well, you know, I've been preaching
for a couple decades now. I can certainly do this.

(16:24):
I was really surprised by how difficult it was going
to end up being in. Uh expositing from the life
of Jesus. This idea, but in the big picture in
the macro, what I've loved so much is that I
really have a lot of, as the youngsters would say,
a lot of ick about the prosperity gospel. And that
can take a lot of forms, not just money and health,
but I find a lot of the preaching, a lot

(16:46):
of the teaching, almost like the heartbeat of, of the
church right now in America especially, is here's how the
gospel can make you better, can make you more independent,
can make you more successful. And it's all about I'm worried.
The definition is here's how you can not need anybody.
Here's how you can best be an island unto yourself.

(17:10):
But we always say no man is an island. But
if all the teaching is, here's how to be a
great island, that doesn't make any sense. So just in
the big picture, in looking at the witness of especially
the New Testament, New Testament Christians living life with one another,
and it's a buzzword in the church. You know, living
life together. But if it's just, you know, take your

(17:32):
independent life and purposely live independently next to someone else's independence,
I just don't think we're getting there. So then you
look at the life of Jesus and if, if certainly
if any human being didn't need anyone else, it would
have been Jesus considering his, you know, miraculous divinity, uh,

(17:52):
simultaneous to his total humanity. But yet he chose to.
So we look we looked in the Gospels and go, okay,
where did Jesus purposely choose to use his physical human needs? Um,
to to meet those physical human needs? He invited other
people into it, and it just became this beautiful picture

(18:14):
that I'm like, how did we miss this? How do
we not see this? How is this not obvious that
we are truly to not just be willing to enter
into other people's needs, but be willing to be the need.
You know, be willing to be the the weak one.
As as Doug said in the forward like, are we
willing to be the weak one?

S5 (18:34):
Tommy, respond to that whole concept of illustrations of how
you see this in the life of Jesus.

S2 (18:43):
Well, so that was the real loop that this threw
me for. I thought it was going to be easy.
It's like, great. I've, you know, I've preached to the
Gospels before, this is going to be fine. But that
core idea was so much more profound than I thought.
How did Jesus use his needs? But it's like it's
a sense. It's easy to say, but then you go,
wait a second. He is God like. He is truly

(19:05):
man and truly God. And it's a mystery that you
know only eternity in his presence could help us understand.
But he is God, and by nature God doesn't have
any needs like it's part of what makes him God
is that he is utterly complete in of himself. So

(19:27):
when I actually pause for a moment and be like, oh,
you know, in literally, oh Lord, like how, how is
it that you had a need? And at first I
thought it was like, oh, he he didn't have to need,
but he chose to need. But if he chose to
need according to the father's plan, the if the father,
you know, has sovereignly decreed that something would be, then

(19:48):
that almost makes it a need. So anyway, I spun
out for a little while, and Kevin had to talk
me down, and I had to burn a lot of
words that got cut out of the book to try
to dial in my own mind, my own heart, to
the idea. But if again, just just like Jesus, if
you just humble yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to

(20:10):
kind of guide you into this moment with the Word
of God, you know, directing every step, Jesus asked a
woman at the well, give me a drink. He was thirsty.
It wasn't just he didn't fake his thirst. It wasn't like, oh,
this will make a convenient object lesson. Like he he
literally was a human man with an actual thirst for water,

(20:33):
and he asks someone else to provide him one. And
so just to see the tenderness of Jesus and the
the humility of Jesus and, you know, it's in it's
in that chapter with the woman at the well, he
humbled himself beneath her in a way, you know, to
ask somebody else to serve you is a if it's

(20:55):
not a hoity prideful, you know, thing, it is a
very beautiful thing. And and again, and Kevin, I'm not
trying to lift you out of your chair with a
helium filled head, but, like, this is just part of
the love that you gave me was the tenderness with
which you and. And the boldness with which. Can you
tell me? Can you help me take a shower? It's like. Oh. Oh, okay. Oh,

(21:17):
we're doing this. Um, sure. but it's almost like I
can't share with everybody the experience of serving Kevin the
way I have in the little, little bits that I
have been able to. But it was very Christ like.
And it, it, it helped me understand what Jesus was
doing in these moments when he asked for, for help.
You know, when he asked for people to essentially serve him.

S5 (21:40):
Yeah, absolutely.

S3 (21:42):
We also notice that in Scripture, and I've wrestled with
this for a long time. Uh, stepping into this book
is that we see Jesus, we see Paul, John, Peter,
we see all of them, uh, throughout the New Testament saying,
put others before yourself. And, um, but the needs of

(22:05):
others before yourself consider others more important than yourself and
be a servant to others. And it never says, put
others before yourself unless your need is greater, and I
never knew what to do with that as a, you know,
£85 kid in a power wheelchair who needed help with

(22:26):
the restroom. Like, what do I do with that? And, um,
and so that kind of, I think, sparked the deep
dive into, okay, well, let's look at the life of Christ.
Let's look at how he handled things when he had thirst,
when he had hunger, when he, uh, when his feet
were dirty. You know, like, how how did he respond?

(22:48):
And he, he used those opportunities to, uh, serve others.

S6 (22:54):
Yeah.

S2 (22:54):
In, in Second Corinthians, I think it's 12 nine. Like,
his strength is made perfect in weakness. Like, you can
you can examine that in the Greek, or you can
help someone and you can see what the Lord does
with that. What the Lord does with with a need
and a need meter. You know, like a servant and

(23:15):
someone who needs serving. You can actually see the truth
of that verse. Just fly off the page. The fellowship
with the Lord that Kevin and I have had in
writing this book, Bathroom breaks included, has really been the
beauty of it that I wish I could share with everybody.

S6 (23:30):
Yeah.

S1 (23:36):
This is the building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast
Kevin Chandler and Tommy Shelton are joining us. They're the
authors of our featured resource, the book The Hospitality of Need. How,
depending on one another helps us heal and grow together.
Find out more at five Love Languages. Com just go
to five Love languages. Com.

S5 (23:58):
Tommy and Kevin, I'd like for each of you to
answer this question. As you have worked through this idea
of hospitality of need, how has it impacted your own
relationships with the Lord as well as with other people?

S3 (24:14):
I think for me, a lot of it has been
putting terminology and bringing focus to something that I was
living out. But with those terms and with that focus
that I can hopefully live it out better. You know,
if you had asked me ten years ago, um, how

(24:37):
I care for those who can take care of me,
I may not have even been aware of it. Um,
even though I through God's grace, I was and and
so I, I think now having spent, uh, gosh, 4
or 5 years working through this idea for this book, I,
it's helped me to recognize, you know, the hospitality in need.

(25:02):
And I guess to tweak that a bit. It's not, uh,
this idea that I'm, well, my friend is taking care
of me, so I have to do something to take
care of him. There's an aspect of that that I
have a responsibility to care for him. But it's really
that even in spite of myself and in spite of
him need, if we step into it together, we can

(25:27):
find something beautiful. And so it's been a really great
experience for me to to grow in that. And as,
as I've been writing the book, as Tommy and I
have worked on this over the past few years, the
friends who are talked about in the book have gotten
to be part of those conversations. Even the writing of

(25:49):
the book has sent those friendships deeper, which is a
really wonderful thing. And so I think the same thing
with the Lord is, as we've worked through these ideas,
it's just deepened my love and gratitude for who the
Lord is and how he carries me, how he steps

(26:09):
into my Absentminded and how he says, I you know,
I was reading yesterday and John 14 when it says, um,
that he goes to prepare a place for you where
I'm going, you will also be. And so it's a
the idea that he wants us with him and he
wants to be with us. It's just really wonderful.

S2 (26:31):
Amen to that. I had a pastoral mentor, a mentor
who was not a very he's not very good at it.
But but he said to me one time he said, Tommy,
you have amazing strengths, but you also have profound weaknesses.
And until you fix those weaknesses, um, you will never
do much in, in God's kingdom, you know, he said,

(26:53):
and I want the best for you. So I just
you need to fix these problems. And, you know, I've,
I've hung with that for for years. Um, and, uh,
he's not well, he's not wrong in the assessment of me,
but I think he was wrong in the in the
solution uh to that and the of course of writing

(27:14):
this book. Um, the Lord has really done a number
on me, especially when when you're the one invited into something,
Kevin says, hey, Tommy, help me write this book. You're like, well,
of course I can. Thank you, Kevin, for recognizing that
I am indeed the man to do this. And, you know,
Kevin is quote unquote, the profoundly handicapped one. But in,
in this context, the context that he invited me into,

(27:36):
I realized in very short order that, no, I'm I
was the handicapped one, and he was the eminently capable one.
And he's carrying me through this, um, while I help him.
And then this friendship grows in the midst of it.
So I'm just imagining this as just a as a
model or in any context. And so you take it

(27:57):
with a, with a husband and a wife. Is it
really the goal of the husband? The wife? The wife's
over here. She's fixing all of her problems by herself.
And the husband's over here fixing all his problems by
his by himself, so they can come together and be
a married, better married couple. I just don't think that's
the way the kingdom works. I don't think that's the
way the Holy Spirit works in and among people. So this,

(28:18):
this word interdependence, I think is so important. And the
subtitle of the book, because we're not talking about codependency,
we're not talking about, you know, broken people huddling together
and reveling in all of their weaknesses. We're talking about
being willing to be interdependent. Like, I'll lean on you,
you lean on me. You know, like the song we
can play that in this kingdom context. It's so beautiful

(28:40):
because all of our pride gets to we get damage
done to all of our pride. You know, like in humility,
we actually see all of us being, uh, raised and
lifted up into it. So, yeah, I've, I've applied lessons
of writing this book to my immediate, you know, my
marriage and my relationship with my children, but also with

(29:02):
my church, that same brilliant pastoral mentor told me not
to be vulnerable in the pulpit because the congregation needs
someone to look up to, to admire and try to
be like. And I'm like, well, God, goodness, like like
for the glory of God. If if the sanctuary of grace,
as it were, is not the place to be vulnerable

(29:22):
and say, I have these needs that I just can't
seem to overcome, maybe those are your strengths and maybe
we can depend on one another. I mean, it almost
sounds like a little too singsongy, you know, kind of hippie,
but it just seems to be the truth of the
gospel played out in real relationships with people if we
allow it. You know, if we lower our, our pride
and and look to Jesus.

S5 (29:45):
Yeah, absolutely. I've always felt that if a pastor or
any Christian speaker is open about their own struggles, people
are far more likely to listen to what they have
to say. If we're just giving platitudes, you know, they're thinking,
oh yeah, but he doesn't know my situation, you know.
So yeah, that's a that's a huge lesson for all

(30:06):
of us. Let me ask this. What's the difference between
asking for help and inviting people into your need?

S6 (30:16):
Mm.

S3 (30:17):
I mean, it's definitely a fine line, isn't it? Because
you may literally in, you know, be asking for help,
but it's really about the posture. It's about your approach
to the situation. There's a chapter in the book that
talks about there. There are two drop offs that are
culture typically falls into. One is seeing your need as

(30:40):
a burden that you're ashamed of, or seeing your need
as an idol, making it an idol or someone else's need,
making it an idol that the whole world should revolve around.
And so we felt like there was a need to clarify.
You know, anyone can ask for help, but to invite

(31:02):
someone into your need is a shoulder to shoulder approach.
It's saying, hey, how about you and I attack this together?
And how about we be in this together? And it's
more of a relationship and less of a transaction. So yeah,
it's subtle, but I think it's important.

S5 (31:24):
Well, you certainly found that to be true, Tommy, when
you were working together on this project. Right?

S2 (31:30):
Indeed, very much so.

S5 (31:32):
You know, Kevin, you quote Henri Nouwen from his book
entitled The Wounded Healer, and he said that hospitality creates,
and I'm quoting here, an empty space where the guest
can find his own soul. Speak to that.

S3 (31:52):
Yeah. Um, this is a quote that really hung with
me and haunted me. I as I started working on
the book and, um, I had the title in place, uh,
and had not gotten to bring Tommy in yet. I
had a stack of books that talked about hospitality and,

(32:13):
and then another stack of books about caring for others. And, uh,
I was trying to engage all of these ideas and, uh,
and this quote really stuck out to me because, um, again,
if we look at need as the hospitable thing as the,
the opportunity, then we realize that the place is not

(32:36):
necessarily a physical space for, uh, relationship. It's a relational
situation that, uh, we can, you know, quote unquote, find
our souls in. Together we can be made whole. And,
you know, Paul talks about realizing the hope that we
have been called to and the riches of the The
inheritance of the saints and the living in the very

(33:00):
power that raised Christ from the dead. You know, that's
all of that is what I think of when I
think of a guest finding his own soul. And so
there's a lot of talk in the book about how
the lines blur between guest and host. And when we
think of hosting someone, we we in our minds and

(33:22):
through our actions, we might say, come into my home,
come into my space and give me your time and
your attention for your sake so that I can care
for you. And then when we think of inviting someone
into our need or asking for help, that flips and
we say, come into my space, give me your time

(33:43):
and your attention for my sake, I really feel like
maybe those two should actually come together and and we
should say, well, you're coming in to care for me. Um,
maybe it can be for your sake also.

S6 (33:57):
Yeah.

S5 (33:58):
Well, tell me it can be a two way street
for sure. Right. When you're inviting others into your need.

S2 (34:04):
Oh, absolutely. I hope this analogy would be on the
right track, but, um, when I started at my church,
the building itself needed a lot of work. It had
been kind of, um, just by necessity. They just didn't
have the funds to meet certain needs in the building.
It needed a fresh lick of paint and the carpets
needed to be cleaned, and the windows needed to be
opened and the building needed to be aired out and

(34:25):
that kind of thing. And, uh, somebody donated some money.
And so we were talking about the actual improvements that
needed to be made to the building. And thankfully, the
heart of my elders was so humble and so pure.
They were worried. They were kind of very cautious. Um, well,
we don't you know, we're not going to be one
of those fancy churches. We don't want to be one
of those fancy churches. And it got me thinking about

(34:46):
the idea of guests walking into a space. So you
think about your own home, you know, where do you
draw the line between showing off and wanting things to
be nice? And, uh, it occurred to me that. Yeah,
if you invite someone over to your home for dinner,
you want them to be blessed by walking through your door. So,

(35:08):
you know, you do want to attend things, and you
want things to be nice because you do want to
be a a blessing. You certainly don't want to make
people feel uncomfortable. But when you buy the 85 inch screen,
you know, rather than the perfectly adequate 65 inch screen,
and you do that because, hey, they're going to be
impressed by this. Like, won't they find this impressive? So
I said that that's our line. Like even as a

(35:29):
church like that's our line. We want people to be
blessed and welcomed. Not impressed. So you take that to
your relationships and your opportunities. You want your guests when
you invite them into your situation and into your need.
It's an opportunity, just like you know the now in quote,
just like Kevin has articulated already so beautifully that that's
an opportunity not to impress somebody, you know. Not to

(35:53):
wow them or overwhelm them, but just step in. You know,
how how can I be a good host? And then
what happens is that relationship builds and then you have
the opportunity to reciprocate, you know, then you're invited over
to their home for dinner. Nobody's impressing anybody. We're just
here to serve one another. Um, and help lift up

(36:17):
and raise one another. That that's like the small example.
And then what happens when that small example is repeated hundreds, thousands,
millions of times over the millennia? We actually see the
church being what God has declared the church to be,
what Jesus has said the church was going to be.
And I think that change happens not with some big

(36:37):
giant program, but just with genuine relationships anchored in the gospel. Um,
wanting to to bless one another, wanting to serve one another.
So that's a lot of words. It's been part of
the process of writing this book. It's like, I can't
stop the thoughts, um, uh, from from spinning out of it.

S6 (36:55):
Yeah.

S5 (36:56):
Well, we're talking about hospitality and tying it to need.
The hospitality of need is hospitality. This this attitude of
reaching out to others and inviting others into your life is.
Is this attitude cult or is it taught? Uh, that
is why. Why is it? Some people seem to have
the attitude of hospitality and others don't.

S2 (37:19):
Well, hospitality. I'll just tell you, um, hospitality in every
spiritual gift inventory I've ever done, hospitality either shows up
as a one or a zero. So it is it
is not my natural proclivity. But I will say, as
a pastor, every time that my wife and I have
purposely taken the time, set out the the evening, and

(37:41):
invited people over to our home for dinner, it has
done nothing but bless us, so we leave that going.
Why don't we do this all the time? This is.
This is like a miracle. Like we. We should be
marked by this and and we're not. So I think
because of the fall, because of our selfishness, it is not,
I don't think, a natural proclivity. I think you you're

(38:03):
raising it. So is it nurture or nature? I, I
think it's yes. And I think the more we practice it,
the more it actually becomes part of our instinct and
our nature. Is that true, Kevin?

S3 (38:13):
Yeah. I can't say it any better. Um, I think
that's spot on as some people are, you know, just
naturally built to be more hospitable and and yet that
doesn't mean that we can't all grow in it, even
the people who are more natural at it, um, the
people who aren't and the people who are, we can

(38:34):
all move in that direction. Because even when it's natural
for you, I think it's still contrast to the sinful
nature and our humanity. It's because hospitality is a feature
of God's character, right? And so we can all catch it,
and we can learn and hone it and honing it

(38:56):
by dying to self. Right. Taking up our cross daily.

S6 (39:01):
Yeah.

S2 (39:01):
And I mean forgive me, but it's also like I
don't want to I don't want to lose the point
of it. Like when we hear the word hospitality, we
usually think of it in, in terms of like, you know,
entenmanns cake and Sanka. Like, it's in the point of the,
the book that the Lord led Kevin to in his
own life is that it's not just about a home
and a saucer of of tea. Every aspect of your

(39:22):
life can be seen as an opportunity for hospitality. You know,
not not just your living room, but your life itself.

S6 (39:30):
Yeah.

S5 (39:31):
Well, Kevin, one of the chapters you talk about being
a hospital. What's the similarity between a hospital and hospitality?

S3 (39:40):
Yeah. Well, there there's a Chapter I mentioned earlier that
talks about need and the pitfalls of seeing need in
the wrong context. And then following that, there's a chapter
that really defines the word hospitality more. Um, we wanted
to make sure we defined these terms that we were

(40:02):
talking about so much in the book. And so when
I stepped into that chapter, I needed help on it. And, uh,
and one of the ways I needed help was that
I asked some friends who are much more adept at, uh,
etymology than I am. They know how to research words

(40:22):
in the history of words and history of cultures based
on words and everything. And and what they came back
with was that a lot of interesting things. But the
one for this purpose is that hospitality. If you really
want to be specific, the definition should not be the
state of being hospitable, which is typically what we would think. Oh, hospitality.

(40:46):
You're a hospitable person. Really, the definition should be the
state of being a hospital. And the the old Latin
word for, for hospital really implied more the character of
a person and their actions. And so that led me
down the road of, of thinking about the parallels of hospitality,

(41:11):
of need and thinking of ourselves as a hospital. And
there were three things that came out of that for me.
One is, and these are in kind of the ideal world,
in theory, hospitals are attentive. You know, you don't walk
in and they say, oh, I know what's wrong with you.

(41:31):
They there's a conversation, there's a working together to get
you back on the track to healing. And there's a
paying No attention to what's wrong and a discovery built
into that. Secondly, hospitals, generally speaking, are generous. If somebody flatlines.
A hospital is going to do what they have to

(41:54):
to get that person back if they can. If there's
an emergency surgery, that doctor is being flown in that night,
you know, and people don't sit around. Again, theoretically, don't
sit around saying, well, what's this going to cost? You know,
we need to operate on him in the next hour,
but we need to run these numbers. It's it's there's

(42:15):
a generosity in taking care of the situation. And then thirdly,
and this one's kind of more practical. Uh, hospitals have
doors and and so patients come into the hospital, but
also doctors and paramedics and ambulances go out those doors
to care for the patients outside. And so with that,

(42:39):
those doors, you could say that there again, that line
kind of blurs between patient and caregiver because they're both
coming and going. The line blurs between the host and guest.
And so with that, we have to ask ourselves when
we're inviting people in or we're caring for others, stepping

(42:59):
into their needs, are we being attentive? Are we being generous?
Are we recognizing the reciprocity in the relationship?

S6 (43:09):
Well.

S5 (43:09):
Those three characteristics of a hospital, that's pretty powerful, I
like that. If we all live with those three things
as a daily way of life, that'd be powerful. Well,
as we come toward the end of our time together,
Kevin and Tommy, let me ask this how do you

(43:29):
hope that readers are going to be challenged or encouraged
by this book?

S2 (43:36):
My hope is that people would have the same kind
of journey that I had where if you if you
look at Kevin and myself side by side and say, okay,
who who has the need most people would point to? Kevin,
the physical evidence seems rather obvious. It's Kevin, he's in
the chair. It's him. I want people to see the
the blessing of their own inadequacy. And, uh, much like, uh,

(43:58):
the celebrate recovery, it's very beautiful. It says everyone has hurts,
habits and hang ups. I want everyone to be able
to see that they have needs. And those are not
to be ashamed of or hidden or or tried to
cure before they, you know, announce that they've been healed
from this deficiency. I want people to be able to
just under the grace of God, just go, yes, I

(44:21):
have needs. And and the Lord has something for his
kingdom and his church. Can we can you just lay
these needs down as opportunities, lay them on an altar
and invite people into it? I mean, I'm just profoundly
in need, and Kevin has been a help and a brother.
If that could just be duplicated over and over and
over and over again. Um, as a model, I would

(44:43):
just I would love to see people's pride melt away
and Jesus be exalted, um, under this gracious, you know,
canopy that he's given us to, to live under. So
just lay down your own pride and not wallow or
revel in your need, but see them as opportunities. That's
what I want.

S3 (45:02):
Yeah, I would say the same. That the people will
be encouraged that they, uh, their needs are not too
much that they're they are loved and encouraged and challenged
to step out and invite people into those needs and
also to be aware and keep an eye out for

(45:22):
needs around them. And through that, that the kingdom would
come and and the Lord's will be done. And, uh,
we just want people to fall in love more and
more with Jesus through the stories in this book and
through what they experience as they try these, this approach
to life.

S5 (45:42):
Well, let me say that I have been encouraged by
our conversation today about this book, and I know that
those who read it are going to find that same encouragement.
You know, we all encounter people with needs. We all
have needs. And so reaching out and inviting people into
our lives and reaching out to be involved in other

(46:04):
people's lives is really crucial. It's it's the way of life.
You know, the scriptures say about Jesus, he went about
doing good. This is following through with that model that
we have in Christ. So Kevin and Tommy, thank you
for being with us today, and I hope that our
listeners will get a copy of this book, and we'll
also pass it along to their friends.

S2 (46:25):
Thank you. Amen. Thank you.

S4 (46:27):
What a powerful story today from Tommy and Kevin. And
if you go to building relationships, you'll see that featured
resource the hospitality of need how depending on one another
helps us heal and grow together. Just go to building relationships.

S5 (46:44):
And next week a conversation for men about becoming lionhearted.
Learn how to live focused, fulfilled and fearless.

S1 (46:55):
Hear from David and Brandon Lindell in one week. Before
we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick
and Janice. Backing. Building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman is
a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers,
a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.