June 14, 2025 • 50 mins
If you have a prodigal in your life, don’t miss this Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. Best-selling and award-winning author, Laine Lawson Craft, will show from her own experience what warfare parenting is all about. You need a battle plan to win back the heart of that prodigal child. Hear encouragement and practical help on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.
Featured resource: Warfare Parenting: A Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your Child
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:00):
Hope for parents of prodigals is straight ahead on building
relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2 (00:06):
You have to realize this is a spiritual battle, and
not only do we need to stand in the gap
for our children and pray in a way we never
have in the power of Jesus, but we also got
to dig deep with God and partner with him so
he can sustain us through it.
S1 (00:24):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
award winning author and speaker Lane Lawson Craft will present
a battle plan for parents of prodigals.
S3 (00:39):
If you go to building relationships, you'll see two resources
from our guests that go together. One is Warfare Parenting,
which is a daily battle plan to fight for your child.
The other is the parents battle plan warfare strategies to
win back your prodigal. You'll find those at building relationships.
And Gary, I know this topic is on the minds
(01:00):
of an awful lot of parents today.
S4 (01:03):
You are absolutely right, Chris. Over the last 2 or
3 years, I've had so many parents in my office,
particularly struggling with this whole thing of prodigals, adult children
who are making decisions that are breaking their hearts. But
so I'm excited about our conversation today. I think it's
going to help not only parents who have prodigals, but
also parents, because all of us could use some help
(01:26):
in parenting, whether it's with our younger children or our
adult children.
S3 (01:30):
Well, let me introduce our guest. Layne Lawson Kraft is
a best selling author. She hosts the podcast Warfare Parenting.
She and her husband, Steve, have been married almost 40 years.
She's a mom, of course, and now a grandmother. And
her featured resources today, as I mentioned, warfare, parenting, and
the parent's battle plan. You can find out more at
(01:51):
Building Relationships.
S4 (01:54):
Well, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2 (01:57):
Oh, thank you so much. What an urgent message, isn't it,
for our parents and grandparents?
S4 (02:02):
Yes, absolutely. I'm looking forward to our conversation. So let's
start with your story. You and your husband, Steve, because
in one of your books, you write about the struggles
you all had, and you say you make the statement,
the best money you ever spent was for counseling. This
apparently was when you and Steve were having some real
struggles in your own marriage. Talk about that.
S2 (02:24):
Absolutely. And I thank you for for mentioning that because
as we get further in this interview, you will see
that this resurrected marriage, and that's what we call it, uh,
is the anchor that held us together when our three
children were prodigals. So yes, we were entrepreneurs. We got
out of college. We started our own businesses separately. Uh,
(02:49):
life started layering. I had two miscarriages, then three children
in a row and about 17 years in the marriage.
We were living on opposite ends of the house and
we were really about to divorce. But I love to
say we were too broke to divorce, so that was
the only thing that kept us together, was we couldn't
(03:11):
afford two separate households. Uh, what was very interesting was
Steve was the exact age that when his parents divorced,
when we were making this decision and I came from
a baby of five, my parents were uneducated, but they
loved us large and just a very great upbringing. So
(03:33):
we had two very unique environments of growing up and experiences.
So all I'm going to get to is this. We
were living religious. We were doing all the right things.
We went to church, I, I taught Bible study, I
sang on Praise Team. Steve and I were in the choir,
but religion was failing us. Our marriage was dead. I
(03:56):
used to say to my best friends, I love to
hate this guy I'm married to. I mean, it was
dark and it was desperate. Um, but what we did
decide was if this guide that we've been serving in
kind of a religious check the box way is real,
could we maybe believe, um, we both were pretty successful.
(04:22):
And I like to say we both were pretty good looking. Uh,
we knew that if we did indeed divorce, that we
wouldn't stay single. And it dawned on us that maybe
this God we knew, we thought we knew, but wanted
to really know better. Could he help us start again
from scratch? And that was the title of the book
(04:44):
Start Again from scratch. So we grabbed each other's hands
and fell to our knees and said, God, we've been
in a 17 year old bad dance. We've done things
horribly to each other. There's resentment. But God, if you're
for real, will you come down and touch us and
help us find a way to love again? And y'all,
(05:07):
I mean, it was unbelievable. We looked at each other
immediately after that prayer and tears were rolling down. And
when I say we looked at each other, we looked
at each other differently. Instantly. We didn't have that. I
love to hate you and all that. It was just
an instant experience with God.
S4 (05:27):
God does miracles, right?
S2 (05:29):
Yes, yes.
S4 (05:31):
Well, you know, I hope the listeners today are hearing that,
particularly those that are going through real struggles, because I
have seen you've seen through the years not only your
own experience and my experience with my wife, but also
scores and scores of other couples who really were just
feeling like it's never going to work. We're we're too different.
(05:52):
And we were just not getting along. But whenever we
turn to God honestly, openly and asking God to do
work in our hearts, he wants to. He loves us.
He ordained marriage. He wants to save us, save marriages.
So thanks for sharing your own struggles there.
S2 (06:09):
After that experience, we knew that we needed help to
learn how to walk a different dance. And and so
we really, truly believe in Christian counseling. And we also
believe in going to the same counselor. Uh, I would
go in on Mondays. He would go in on Wednesdays,
and then we would do it together on Fridays. And again, remember,
(06:31):
we had no money. So we went to a wonderful
Christian place that based it on your income and worked
with us until we did have the foundation and the
counseling tools to make this marriage work in combination with
partnering with God.
S4 (06:49):
Yeah, yeah, We always have a role to play in
the issue. Yes. Yeah. That's great. And Christian counseling can
obviously make a tremendous difference in that. Now, after this
marriage turnaround, you raised your children in a Christian home
with biblical values. But as a parent, you discovered we
(07:10):
can't control our adult children's choices. Talk about that.
S2 (07:15):
Well, don't we love to believe we can, right? I mean, yes,
so we got kind of caught up in that initially,
but then we realized we had to separate ourselves from
their behavior. That's when the big moment of Aha came
to us, that when we began to separate our children's
(07:36):
choices and behaviors, we started realizing that there was a
spiritual element in this. It goes back to John 1010
where it says, the enemy comes to seek, kill and destroy.
And we realized that our children were getting sucked up
in this dark and evil, evil culture. And that was
(07:58):
when we really realized it's beyond them just being rebellious
or battling some negative emotions.
S4 (08:06):
So I think you said earlier that really all three
of your children at one point were prodigals. Is that correct?
S2 (08:12):
That's correct. And they all did have very unique challenges.
And if you don't mind, I'd love to share with
you kind of in sequence how it happened. Uh, my
eldest child took the longest, and we'll end with him.
So my daughter Kaylee was my only girl, and she
was born very early and and had health challenges a
(08:32):
lot of her life. But about age 17 or 18,
she started feeling like a lot of young women that
she didn't fit in, that she wasn't as pretty as
the others. And, um, she was at a Bible study
one night and they left, and she was with a friend,
and she began to confess to this friend that she
(08:52):
was hearing voices in her head that life would be
better without her in it, and she was sobbing. And
this friend, praise the Lord, grabbed her hands and they
began to pray, and Kaylee said that there was a
warmth from her head to her toes, and she knew
it was God, because the tears dried up and she
(09:13):
began to feel such a release from these just terrible
voices in her head. And that began her turnaround. And
now she helps so many others. You know, we've got
suicide rates and depression rates and anxiety rates among among
our young children, and she's been able to really help
those with that. And then there's Lawson. And Lawson, uh,
(09:37):
is a wonderful, sweet man. And he went through a
very dark time. He kind of got into these kind
of walkthrough concerts, these concerts that you take a lot
of drugs and you literally are kind of like a zombie.
He was into drugs and alcohol and it was really
a tough, rough time. Uh, what happened with him was
(10:00):
a very unique battle. Uh, the enemy we feel like
did a full on assault for Lawson. There was a
24 hour period that Lawson could have died. And when
I mean that, I mean physically died. He fell downstairs.
He aspirated. He a lot of things. He he he
went to a neighbor's house, and he hit Lawson in
(10:22):
the face where he had a a cut that required
plastic surgery. What happened was very incredible. Steve, my husband
went down to check on him. I had an option
for Steve to go check on him, and Steve stayed
with him for a lot of this battle. And Lawson
woke up, y'all. He was 24, 25 years old in
(10:42):
his father's arms. And he said, I am so sorry.
I will never, ever have another day that I don't
remember every second. And so that touch of God saving
him from that demonic attack, you know, changed him forever.
And now he helps young men that battle a lot
(11:03):
of these pressures. And then Steven is my wonderful eldest child.
He saw something about age 12 at a neighbor's house.
It was porn. And he believes, as he looks back,
that that was the gate that the enemy used to
really the next 15 years was drugs, alcohol, womanizing. And
(11:26):
his story is most powerful to me because 15 years
he made self-destructive choices. He he lived in the pit
and he was at a party, y'all high on cocaine
and was calling an Uber, and the Uber driver picked
him up. And it happened to be a pastor from
another country trying to raise money for his church. And
(11:47):
he said, I feel like I need to pray for you, Stephen.
And Stephen said, mom, I knew I was high. But
when he started praying, the presence of God came in
so heavy in this Uber car that it pressed me
to the floorboard, and I began to cry and beg
him to quit praying. And he said, I knew, mom.
I knew it was the presence of God coming in
(12:09):
to rescue me. And again, this was a touch of
God that no man can dispute. And that was the
beginning of Stephen's journey of healing and getting well again.
S4 (12:23):
You shared with us, uh, the three children and something
of the nature of what they went through and how
the satanic attacks upon their lives, trying to pull them
into lifestyles that were obviously not Christian. So, uh, as
they went through all of this, uh, through these various years,
was there a point in your own life dealing with
(12:45):
all this that you experienced? You know, deep pain or
struggle or thoughts? What what was going on in your
heart and mind while while they were involved in this
kind of lifestyle?
S2 (12:56):
Well, I can tell you my heart was broken a
million times. You know, I would think that they would
make a change and they didn't. And, uh, I was
very grateful. I'm so glad we started with the marriage resurrection.
Because once you've tasted and seen that power in your life,
you can believe it for others. And so that was
(13:18):
the anchor for Steve and I, as we continue to
watch our children under this influence of the dark world,
that our children with technology and phones and all the
things that they that they are exposed to, we began
to make a a plan that we were going to
stand united. You know how kids love to, her, you know. Say,
(13:42):
mom says. And dad says so in the lowest point
when we were just going, are our kids ever going
to turn around? We realized that and and we addressed it.
And then we decided that, you know, it says in
the scripture, A house divided will certainly fail. And and
that's when we really decided we were going to stand together,
(14:03):
and we were going to stand in the gap and
wait for God to make a turnaround for us.
S4 (14:09):
Yeah. Now, lots of times, husbands and wives, uh, have
different responses in how to how they should or ought
to respond. Did you and your husband have some differences
in that?
S2 (14:23):
Absolutely. And it doesn't take long if you're ever around
Steve and I, he's the logic, the reason. And I'm
the energetic, uh, you know, passionate outcry. Uh, I can
remember specifically one night, uh, both both children gotten a
lot of trouble. And I can remember we had at
(14:44):
that time a three story house, and I would I
was crawling up and down the stairs, literally wailing. And
Steve came up to me and he said, is this
a put on? Are you? And I go, no, Steve,
I want these kids to see what a mama's broken
heart looks like. Yes, we reacted very differently, but effectively,
(15:07):
you know, they they knew that dad would always be
the one that logically, scientifically tried to do it. And
then they also knew that I was passionate about helping
them get out of these pits.
S4 (15:20):
Yeah, yeah. So in your book, you talk about warfare
strategy for parents. Explain what that means and how that
worked out in your own situation.
S2 (15:33):
Well, again, that was the big aha moment when we
realized we were battling much more than a kid slamming
the door, or even a kid flipping another car under
alcohol influence. We realized there was a dark army to seek,
kill and destroy these children, and we knew that Jesus
had given us the victory, but we had to really
(15:57):
armor up. We became warrior parents, and we began to
dig deeper and find ways in the spirit that we
could help our children find protection and provision until they
turn their lives around.
S4 (16:16):
And the whole thing of spiritual battle. A lot of
parents in today's culture, that's a strange thing for them,
the spiritual dimension to this, you know, they they blame drugs,
they blame a lot of other things in culture that
led their children away. But as Christians, we know we
are in a spiritual battle, right?
S2 (16:37):
Absolutely. And I think we got to the point that
we had nothing to lose, right? I mean, once we
realized that we're in a spiritual battle, then we kind
of knew, man, we're going full in. We're going to
plead the blood of Jesus over these kids. We're going
to dig deeper in a personal way ourselves so that
(16:57):
we can stand strong in the battle. It was powerful
because we also realized our authority in this and our
identity because, again, you know, 15 years is a long
time to watch a kid make choice after choice that
was self-destructive or that was destroying his destiny. You have
(17:20):
to realize this is a spiritual battle. And not only
do we need to stand in the gap for our
children and pray in a way we never have in
the power of the blood of Jesus, but we also
got to dig deep with God and partner with him
so he can sustain us through it.
S4 (17:37):
Yeah. So what's the difference between warfare strategy and and
the traditional parenting models or methods that that we're familiar with?
S2 (17:49):
Well, I think that's what makes both of these books unique,
because I absolutely identify that we've got to do some
things in the natural. Right. I mean, we've got to
emulate the behaviors that we want our children to do.
I mean, we've got to live the life, too. We
also have got to have boundaries. You know, we can't
(18:10):
just sit there and allow them to live in chaos
and rebellion. So I do believe with everything in me,
this is if I y'all could see my hands. I've
got one half of a circle in the physical and
then the other half in the spiritual. But the spiritual
will always, always override because it does take the power
(18:32):
of God. It does take the power of God to
bring prodigals back around. Only God can touch a heart
and turn it around. And so that is the difference.
We've got to rely on the spiritual element much more,
and be aware of the spiritual element than anything else.
S4 (18:54):
And allowing God as you see it, to build into
us the kind of character and lifestyle that we would
like to see in our children. You know, one of
the questions I ask myself along the way, when we
were raising our two children about different issues, I asked myself,
what if my children turn out to be like me?
(19:15):
What if they drive a car the way I drive
a car? What if they treat their spouse the way
I treat mine? What if they. And right on down
the line. And I made some really significant changes through
the years by simply asking that question. Uh, because, you know,
we we are called upon to model what we say
we believe. You know the lifestyle we believe God wants
(19:37):
us to have. So I think that whole thing of
you use the word emulate for them what we would
like to see happening in their lives.
S2 (19:46):
I used to have a sign on my refrigerator that said,
you can do what you see me do, and you
can say what you see me and hear me say.
And boy, was that a litmus test for me as
a mama. Yes.
S4 (19:59):
Yep yep yep. Absolutely. So I think I like the
emphasis you make, you know? Yes, God wants to help us.
God can do things we can't do. But God also
expects to work in us and through us as parents.
So there are young prodigals. There are adult prodigals. Is
there a common theme to those journeys?
S2 (20:23):
I think the common theme would be the culture, the media,
the influences like we've never seen before. I say all
the time we're a click away. Our children, whether they're
15 or 50 or a click away from making that
self-destructive choice or that, you know, addiction, reigniting that, or
(20:45):
looking at things we shouldn't or receiving things. So I
would say the common theme to both is just the opportunity,
the absolute ease to get into evil with without any effort.
S4 (21:01):
Yeah, I think all parents would agree with what you've
just said. It's a totally different world from a past generation,
you know, in raising children. So talk talk to the
listener who has a young prodigal. They're still living in
the home. They're still young. They're not out of high
school yet. What's the first step that they they might
(21:22):
take in a process of being taken a warfare strategy?
S2 (21:26):
Yes. And again, I think the first thing is just
to To recognize that you indeed are in a spiritual
battle and spiritual warfare of your child. Secondly, I would
ask a parent, are you praying for your child? Because
if you're not praying for your child, then who is?
So I really not say that out of condemnation. I
say it out of conviction. And then, of course, you know,
(21:49):
I believe with everything in me, when I started integrating
the power of the blood of Christ in my prayers,
that it just took it to a new level. And
another thing I would say with a young prodigal, where
I think I failed the most was Steve, and my
eldest was the first real prodigal. And I think as
(22:10):
a Christian mom, I thought I was protecting him from
the world by not really talking about all of the
things they could get into. So if you haven't started
those conversations, it's never too late. You know, you can
sit down with your 12, 14, 15 year old and say, listen,
I don't think we've ever talked about, man. The pressures
(22:31):
you're under and just start a conversation. You will immediately
see a shift in that prodigal, because they will see
that you really do get where they are.
S4 (22:45):
Yeah. I think conversation is something that sometimes parents don't
know how to initiate or struggle with, how to bring
up the topic, or where to bring up the topic,
and not waiting until they, the child, is displaying, you know,
wrong behavior. Well, I remember when my son was a teenager,
(23:07):
a young teenager. I went down once a month on
Saturday night to the juvenile detention center and played ping
pong with the young man in there and then, you know,
had conversations with him. I started taking him with me.
You know, he wasn't drinking or anything. I just took
him with me. And on the way home after we would,
I'd say, you know, Derrick, think about it that kids
(23:28):
your age and under alcohol, he did something that was
wrong has got him in this situation. Yeah, just just
planting seeds like that. Different conversations. And I think sometimes
it takes a book or some ideas for parents to
realize or to instigate, uh, meaningful conversation, you know, with
(23:52):
their children and listening to the children as a part
of talking. Right? I mean, it's a part of a conversation.
It's not just you talking to them. It's letting them
ask you questions.
S2 (24:00):
Yes. That is so powerful and true.
S1 (24:07):
This is the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, The
Five Love Languages. You can take an easy assessment of
your love language and see our featured resources today at
Five Love Languages. Com Lane Lawson Craft has written Warfare
Parenting A Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your Child
(24:30):
and the parents Battle plan Warfare Strategies to Win back
Your prodigal. Just go to five Love languages.
S3 (24:40):
Lane. Just before the break, you were talking about having
a conversation. I think there's a lot of Christian parents
listening who are afraid to have the conversation because they
want to know what's going on in their son or
daughter's life, and yet at the same time, they don't
want to know. They want to believe that everything is okay.
They want to believe, you know, God's in control here.
(25:01):
He's going to have his way and the child's life.
And so it's hard. It's difficult when you hear some
of the things, the stresses that they're under and the
things that they're exposed to. It's really difficult to hear
that talk to that parent who who feels that way.
S2 (25:17):
Yes. I call that digging our heads in the sand.
I absolutely challenged parents today to be courageous and it
is hard. I'll never forget having to talk the words
that I never dreamed I'd have to say about pictures
coming into their phone, or them sending out pictures. These
(25:40):
are hard and tough conversations. But again, our culture, our media,
our entertainment, everything else is impacting and influencing their choices.
So we as parents, if we don't stand in there
and open these hard conversations, then we're not equipping them
(26:01):
for you know, how to deal with it. Sadly, you
have to start so much younger with these conversations. I
think the average age for a child to see porn
is now 6 or 7 years old. So we have
got to start talking to our children as Christian parents
because we are stewarding God's child, and we have got
(26:24):
to equip them for the battle themselves. So if we
don't address it, if we don't take that courage and
sit down with them and start hearing the things that
maybe you don't want to hear, but guiding them back,
that's the key. We want to be the ones that
guide them back with the right knowledge, you know, with
(26:46):
the right conversations.
S4 (26:48):
Yeah. My strong conviction is if parents do not open
conversations with their children about these issues early on, they're
not going to come to you and bring up the
topic because in their minds, well, I don't know. You know,
they're wrestling with the whole thing themselves, but they're not
(27:10):
going to initiate the conversation. But if you bring it up,
then they will realize, oh, it's okay to talk about this.
And so they will come to you when they're struggling
two weeks or two months or two years down the road.
So yeah, conversations are so important. Now you emphasize the
importance of prayer and spiritual armor during the fight for
(27:32):
your child. So how does your warfare parenting movement, as
it were, contribute to the larger spiritual awakening in families?
S2 (27:44):
Well, I think we've all seen that the family is
under attack. We've got high divorce rates. I think the
latest Barna research showed that Christian marriages don't survive any
more than a non-Christian marriage. Then we also have, I believe,
a statistic that's unbelievable, but I think it's close to 40%
(28:05):
of children being born today are being born without a
mom and dad. Uh, and most of these don't even
get married. So the enemy is already trying to destroy
God's design for family. and his second on salt attack
are these children. And what I also want to share
(28:26):
today is these assaults, I believe are destiny changers. Meaning,
you know, it says that God has a plan, a
a wonderful plan for all of us. And Jesus said
he died to give us an abundant life. Well, I
believe with everything in me, the enemy is out to
get these kids early, get them into depression where maybe
(28:50):
they make wrong choices, maybe get them addicted to something that,
you know, spirals them down. I, I believe with everything
in me that parents today we must get our spiritual
armor together and we must learn to partner with God. First.
S4 (29:09):
Reflect back on what would it look like in a
Christian home when the parents are taking the spiritual part
of life seriously in terms of daily routines in the home.
What does it look like to be bringing the spiritual
part into the daily life of our children when they're younger?
S2 (29:32):
Yes. I think if I had to do it all
over again, I would have probably started reading the Word
of God that I have now, in my later years,
learned to love each word. I would have started letting
them learn to love the word, that we remove this
religious part of it that you have to do, and
(29:53):
you have to read. It really should become a lifestyle.
If you're a parent today and you've got children, I
would think that the most important thing is that they
see you reading maybe your little devotion every morning with
your coffee. Maybe they see you take food to someone
that's sick. Start these small deposits in your own lifestyle
(30:17):
so that your children start to recognize what kindness is.
You know what empathy is. All of those things continue
to build again. I really believe that learning that the
Word of God is like an instruction book. It's not
rules for you to follow and maybe fall short of.
(30:41):
It's an instruction book that God loved you so much.
He said, this is the way to live so that
you can live in the best purposes that I have
for you.
S4 (30:51):
Yeah. What is the role of the church in partnering
with parents in the raising of children?
S2 (30:59):
Well, it's significant and I believe that we are missing
the mark. I don't see enough family ministries going, you know,
2020 really changed the dynamics of everything. We're all having
to use new models. I believe that the church must
step up. We must help these single mothers. We with
(31:22):
these kids, we must empower and equip parents on ways
to tackle what our kids are hearing and seeing and
being exposed to. I think the church plays a vital part,
and my hope and dream is that one day, every
church in America will have a warfare parenting small group.
(31:43):
Use these books as curriculums to bring parents that love
the Lord, but their kids are in a battle and
they can come in and pray together and build a
community of faith and learn, you know, different ways to
tackle these things that they are challenged with today.
S4 (32:02):
You know, I think, of course, churches are different, individual
churches are different. But the churches that have programs geared
to children of all ages where the church is complimenting.
You know what they're getting in the home to me
is a is a powerful ministry of the church. We
have folks who are in churches where you don't have
(32:25):
a children's ministry. You don't have a youth ministry. Can
I challenge you to do what you can to stimulate
that and get that started in your church? Because the
parents are the key influencers. But those kind of programs
in the churches can also have a tremendous positive impact
(32:45):
on our children.
S2 (32:47):
Yes, they can. And and, you know, I think probably
the greatest challenge on a personal level when I had
these prodigals was I felt so isolated at the time.
I published a national magazine in every bookstore in America
and Canada with covers like Dolly Parton and, uh, many
(33:07):
times and the Duck Dynasty women, women of significance in
our culture, but had faith as a root that is
so important to create a place where a Christian parent
doesn't feel like they're walking this journey alone.
S4 (33:22):
Yeah, well, let's say that a parent has a prodigal child,
and they are involved in any number of things that
are non-biblical. How can the parent of that adult I'm
thinking of adult children now. How can that parent stay
connected with them, um, without condoning their their sinful behavior?
S2 (33:48):
Well, I say that's probably one of the toughest parts, really,
because it is an adult child. And we say to ourselves,
they should know better, right? So we sometimes in human
nature just want to, like I said, cut them off
until they turn around. But what I have found is
(34:09):
that unconditional love is really the healing balm for many families.
And what I mean by that. Yes, you don't have
to love their choices or their lifestyles, but I do think.
Reaching out to them out of like from my perspective,
my heart, my. The mother's heart, you know, reach out
(34:30):
to them, maybe by a letter and just say, I
don't know if I ever really told you about how
wonderful it was the day we brought you home. Make
good deposits, showing them the love that you truly have
for them. And again, I love to tell parents the
words I'm sorry can change everything. You know, I'm sorry
(34:55):
that we're here. You're not saying you're sorry for maybe how,
you know, you had to put boundaries up. You're saying
I'm sorry that we've ended up here. Can we try
to meet for coffee? Can we discuss how wonderful all
of those past times were and find a way to
start over.
S4 (35:16):
What is the role of boundaries and what? And can
you give us some examples of the kind of boundaries
that we might, might establish for, for their benefit and
our benefit?
S2 (35:26):
Yes. I think it was probably the toughest thing for me,
because it took me many years to realize that I
was playing a part of their wrong choices, meaning I
was continuing to give them, you know, a weekly allowance.
I was replacing the car that they flipped. I had
(35:47):
to realize, do I want to be a part of
their self-destructive, or do I want to make it consequential?
None of us. You make changes until we feel a
little pain. And so tough love. Yes, I had to
show tough love. I had to cut them off financially.
I had to alienate myself at some points, just to
(36:10):
show them that I could not accept the choices they
were making. I'm not going to be mamby pamby about it.
It's it's one of the hardest things as a parent
to do. But again, I like to say, I don't
want you to have regrets. I think if I had
not done the tough love and continued to supply the
necessities to to make these choices in their lives that
(36:34):
were not the best for them, then I would have
had a lot of regrets.
S4 (36:39):
The whole thing of consequences for wrong behavior. Even when
God forgives us, we still suffer the consequences of what
we did if it was wrong. I think a lot
of times Christians have the idea that, you know, God
forgives and everything is perfect. Uh, but but that's not true.
You just you mentioned, for example, uh, wrecking a car
(37:01):
and under the influence of alcohol. Uh, God can forgive
us for what we did wrong, but the car's still wrecked,
you know. And so how do we, uh, do what
God does? Follow his example and let our children suffer
the consequences of their behavior. Any particular illustration come to
(37:24):
your mind of that with one of your children? Of
letting them suffer the consequences of their behavior?
S2 (37:32):
Yes. And and again, it's painful. Right? But it is
one of the best ways for them to, I like
to say, stew in it a minute, you know, just
sit there and realize not only how they've hurt themselves,
but the people that love them. Yeah. So yes, it's tough.
S4 (37:54):
What was one of the first signs that you saw
in one of your prodigals? Uh, making a turn away
from a destructive lifestyle?
S2 (38:03):
I think I would like to use Steven Stephen because
it was such a long journey. And when he was
touched by God that that night in the Uber, he
realized the power of God. God became very personal to him.
It wasn't just this thing he read in the Bible
(38:25):
or went to church and worshiped it. It became a
very personal relationship with him. And I started seeing small
steps of just repentance. Um, I can't tell you how
many times he said, you know, in the beginning. Mom,
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. All the pain I've
(38:45):
caused you and daddy and and truly staying in that journey.
You know, we'd heard some of that in the past,
but this time he really marked it, and it was significant.
S4 (38:58):
Earlier, when you're talking about prayer, you talked about the
whole the power of of claiming victory or declaring victory,
even in the midst of spiritual struggles that are still
going on. Talk a bit about that.
S2 (39:15):
Well, it's one of my favorite things to talk about, really,
and I call it the mean time because I call
the mean time. It's when we offer a prayer to God,
turn this kid around, God, please touch him. And then
the waiting. And I talk about how it can get
so mean. In the meantime, you start getting disappointed. You
(39:36):
get discouraged again. Those feelings of guilt or shame or
isolation start coming into you. And so what I say is,
we've got to stand in the Word of God and
declare it for ourselves and for our family and for
our children. And then I, I begin to find promises
from the Lord and and just speak them over our
(39:58):
family and our children, all of these things. See, they
edify and encourage us as parents, but it overflows to
the children until they turn around. I just love the
fact that when we dig deep in the trenches with
God and partner with him and realize it's his battle,
(40:20):
but we're going to partner and do everything in the
physical and in the supernatural spiritual realm. Then God comes
in and we just in the meantime, wait for the
expectantly for him to move on our behalf and for
our children.
S4 (40:35):
Yeah. Let's talk a bit about a prodigal who, in
the midst of their lifestyle, actually dies. It could be
in an accident, you know, or or just physical things
responding to drugs and alcohol or whatever. And that parent
(40:56):
feels guilty. Where do they go from there?
S2 (41:00):
I'm so glad you asked this today because I didn't
want to come across as Pollyanna. I don't believe you
do this and that and you get an outcome. We
certainly see we've got fentanyl poisonings again. We've got suicide
rates that are off the charts. I have a chapter
in the parents battle plan. It's it's when the worst
(41:20):
happens and my heart breaks for any parent that has
outlived their child, that's not the way God designed it.
But I wanted to let them know. I understand that
it happens, right? And I say to parents, we pray
for miracles, for our prodigals or for our children that
are struggling. But you didn't get the miracle you asked
(41:44):
God for, but you are living a miracle. And what
I mean by that is you're able to get up
in the morning and get through the day, and that's
because of God's loving strength in your life. And the
only hope that we all have is the promise from
God and revelations 21 four and it says, you know,
(42:04):
there will be no more sorrow, no more pain when
we get to heaven. And so we have to stand
on that promise of reuniting with that child one day
in heaven. That's the miracle that they get.
S4 (42:19):
You know, sometimes say to parents who sit in my
office and say, what did we do wrong? That our
child turned out this way? And I say to them, well,
ask God. I mean, if you did wrong, God will
show you where you did wrong, and you can confess
that to God, and God will forgive you. But then
(42:40):
let me remind you, God's first two children went wrong.
Adam and Eve. They had a perfect father, and yet
they made poor decisions. So don't take the full responsibility
of your adult children's wrong decisions on yourself. Don't take
(43:02):
the blame for something your adult child is doing. God
gives all of us freedom to follow him or not
to follow him. And we have to give our adult
children that same kind of freedom that they have to
make decisions to follow God or not to follow God.
So it is it's very painful to see parents go
(43:24):
through this. And particularly if a child dies in the
midst of, you know, being a prodigal. So when a
prodigal does return, however, which is what we pray for
and what we hope for, what are some of the
steps toward forgiveness and healing? Uh, in the in the
process of restoring the relationship?
S2 (43:44):
Well, it's not easy and it's not simple. Remember, now,
Steven was 15 years into just making poor choices, and
so I had to make a shift in my own heart.
Originally and initially. And that was to look at him
through God's eyes. I started seeing him as broken, and
(44:07):
when I started doing that, I was able to love
him through a forgiveness that is beyond me. I say
the Holy Spirit is the one that helps us walk
this out. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the
one that helps us forgive. It's very difficult to forgive.
Those that have betrayed us, lied to us, took us
(44:29):
for granted. So one of the first steps, I would
say mom or dad or grandparent or whoever that has
this loved one that has turned around and needs forgiveness,
is to have that eternal lens and that unconditional love
in your heart through the power of the Holy Spirit.
And you know, we mentioned the words I'm sorry again.
(44:52):
You know, I say they're the two most powerful words.
It's not saying you did anything wrong. It's saying, I'm
sorry we're even here. And I'm just so thankful for
this step of reconciliation. And I'm going to forgive you.
And I'm going to love you unconditionally. And that begins
the process of healing.
S4 (45:14):
Forgiveness is not a feeling, is it? It's a choice.
S2 (45:19):
Right?
S5 (45:20):
We can still feel hurt.
S4 (45:21):
We can still be grieved over the lost time and
the lifestyle and all of that. And we can still
feel hurt. We can even feel angry toward them. But
forgiveness is that choice to pardon them. Which is what
exactly what God does for us to pardon them, and
also to remove the barrier that this has created between us,
(45:44):
so that we can, in the future, move to having
a more positive relationship. Yeah, forgiveness is a key issue.
No question about that. Tell us again. You mentioned a
little bit about where your children are today. But but
tell us, since you shared each of them, where are
they today in their journey?
S2 (46:03):
Well, I just want to throw a party, don't you?
Isn't it a time of celebration to to see that
a child that you know was 15 years in a
journey in the pit of hell can be turned around
and not just turned around? All three of my children
are entrepreneurs, like their mom and dad. Stephen, the eldest,
(46:24):
has an insurance brokerage. He's married. He has baby Elle,
who made us la la and Papa first. And we
just found out they're having another one. And then we
have Lawson, who owns his own real estate investment firm
and is a real estate agent. And then my daughter
Kaylee is married and she too has a little boy
(46:47):
that made us Lala and Papa. And now she's having
another one. And she's a fantastic artist and a real
estate agent. And just what's powerful to me is to
see how on fire these three are. Since they had
such a significant experience and personal, intimate touch of God,
(47:09):
they all three are so passionate about helping others find
this too.
S4 (47:15):
Yeah, that's powerful, isn't it? And when you think about
it and look in the New Testament, you know, the apostles,
many of the apostles were people who had a bad background.
Paul himself, who wrote so much of the New Testament,
was openly anti-God before he had his encounter with God.
(47:35):
So it's amazing how God can turn lives around and
and just make things totally different. So absolutely great. Let
me ask you this. Uh, what did God do in
your own life? Living with your children? Who who did
for these years. Little prodigal lives. What? How did God
(47:56):
use that in your own life?
S2 (47:59):
Well, you know, he works a lot out in the fire,
doesn't he? He says, you know, he the only way
to get gold to really shine is to get it
through a fire. Um, he he he really reformed me
from the inside out. I became so deeply surrendered to
him and his wills and his ways because I had
no other place to go. You know, sometimes we think, oh,
(48:22):
we'll just pray like it's the last thing. Really, it
should be the first thing. Sometimes we do that with God, right?
We we try to do everything in the natural and
in our control. But the most pivotal thing God did
through me was to teach me how to literally take
pieces of my life and bring them to the altar
and say, God, I'm bringing this to you. I'm laying
(48:44):
it down so that I know that I know you
are going to orchestrate. You are going to show me
whatever I need to do or know. And it was
so powerful. And and little did I know that all
those tears from that broken heart, that mama's broken heart
(49:04):
for years and years with three prodigals that God would
use me to help thousands of parents and loved ones
find ways to bring their prodigals home and heal their families.
It's amazing.
S4 (49:19):
Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being with
us today, and thank you for allowing God to use
all the pain and that you went through to now,
as you just said, help so many other people. And
I do believe that our listeners are going to find
these books to be extremely helpful. So thanks for keeping
(49:40):
open to God. And as you said, turning the only
place you really could turn that had any answers and saying,
thanks for being with us today.
S2 (49:48):
Thank you so much.
S3 (49:50):
Once again, the title of our featured resources are the
books by our guest, Lane Lawson Kraft Warfare Parenting A
Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your child and the parents.
Battle plan warfare strategies to win back your prodigal. Just
go to building relationships to find out more. Again, building relationships.
S4 (50:12):
Next week, pastor and author Chip Ingram is going to
encourage us to choose joy.
S1 (50:18):
Learn how to change your perspective and change your life
in one week. Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve
Wick for their production work on today's program. Building relationships
with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio
in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Thanks for listening.
Hope for parents of prodigals is straight ahead on building
relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman.
S2 (00:06):
You have to realize this is a spiritual battle, and
not only do we need to stand in the gap
for our children and pray in a way we never
have in the power of Jesus, but we also got
to dig deep with God and partner with him so
he can sustain us through it.
S1 (00:24):
Welcome to building relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of
the New York Times best seller The Five Love Languages. Today,
award winning author and speaker Lane Lawson Craft will present
a battle plan for parents of prodigals.
S3 (00:39):
If you go to building relationships, you'll see two resources
from our guests that go together. One is Warfare Parenting,
which is a daily battle plan to fight for your child.
The other is the parents battle plan warfare strategies to
win back your prodigal. You'll find those at building relationships.
And Gary, I know this topic is on the minds
(01:00):
of an awful lot of parents today.
S4 (01:03):
You are absolutely right, Chris. Over the last 2 or
3 years, I've had so many parents in my office,
particularly struggling with this whole thing of prodigals, adult children
who are making decisions that are breaking their hearts. But
so I'm excited about our conversation today. I think it's
going to help not only parents who have prodigals, but
also parents, because all of us could use some help
(01:26):
in parenting, whether it's with our younger children or our
adult children.
S3 (01:30):
Well, let me introduce our guest. Layne Lawson Kraft is
a best selling author. She hosts the podcast Warfare Parenting.
She and her husband, Steve, have been married almost 40 years.
She's a mom, of course, and now a grandmother. And
her featured resources today, as I mentioned, warfare, parenting, and
the parent's battle plan. You can find out more at
(01:51):
Building Relationships.
S4 (01:54):
Well, welcome to Building Relationships.
S2 (01:57):
Oh, thank you so much. What an urgent message, isn't it,
for our parents and grandparents?
S4 (02:02):
Yes, absolutely. I'm looking forward to our conversation. So let's
start with your story. You and your husband, Steve, because
in one of your books, you write about the struggles
you all had, and you say you make the statement,
the best money you ever spent was for counseling. This
apparently was when you and Steve were having some real
struggles in your own marriage. Talk about that.
S2 (02:24):
Absolutely. And I thank you for for mentioning that because
as we get further in this interview, you will see
that this resurrected marriage, and that's what we call it, uh,
is the anchor that held us together when our three
children were prodigals. So yes, we were entrepreneurs. We got
out of college. We started our own businesses separately. Uh,
(02:49):
life started layering. I had two miscarriages, then three children
in a row and about 17 years in the marriage.
We were living on opposite ends of the house and
we were really about to divorce. But I love to
say we were too broke to divorce, so that was
the only thing that kept us together, was we couldn't
(03:11):
afford two separate households. Uh, what was very interesting was
Steve was the exact age that when his parents divorced,
when we were making this decision and I came from
a baby of five, my parents were uneducated, but they
loved us large and just a very great upbringing. So
(03:33):
we had two very unique environments of growing up and experiences.
So all I'm going to get to is this. We
were living religious. We were doing all the right things.
We went to church, I, I taught Bible study, I
sang on Praise Team. Steve and I were in the choir,
but religion was failing us. Our marriage was dead. I
(03:56):
used to say to my best friends, I love to
hate this guy I'm married to. I mean, it was
dark and it was desperate. Um, but what we did
decide was if this guide that we've been serving in
kind of a religious check the box way is real,
could we maybe believe, um, we both were pretty successful.
(04:22):
And I like to say we both were pretty good looking. Uh,
we knew that if we did indeed divorce, that we
wouldn't stay single. And it dawned on us that maybe
this God we knew, we thought we knew, but wanted
to really know better. Could he help us start again
from scratch? And that was the title of the book
(04:44):
Start Again from scratch. So we grabbed each other's hands
and fell to our knees and said, God, we've been
in a 17 year old bad dance. We've done things
horribly to each other. There's resentment. But God, if you're
for real, will you come down and touch us and
help us find a way to love again? And y'all,
(05:07):
I mean, it was unbelievable. We looked at each other
immediately after that prayer and tears were rolling down. And
when I say we looked at each other, we looked
at each other differently. Instantly. We didn't have that. I
love to hate you and all that. It was just
an instant experience with God.
S4 (05:27):
God does miracles, right?
S2 (05:29):
Yes, yes.
S4 (05:31):
Well, you know, I hope the listeners today are hearing that,
particularly those that are going through real struggles, because I
have seen you've seen through the years not only your
own experience and my experience with my wife, but also
scores and scores of other couples who really were just
feeling like it's never going to work. We're we're too different.
(05:52):
And we were just not getting along. But whenever we
turn to God honestly, openly and asking God to do
work in our hearts, he wants to. He loves us.
He ordained marriage. He wants to save us, save marriages.
So thanks for sharing your own struggles there.
S2 (06:09):
After that experience, we knew that we needed help to
learn how to walk a different dance. And and so
we really, truly believe in Christian counseling. And we also
believe in going to the same counselor. Uh, I would
go in on Mondays. He would go in on Wednesdays,
and then we would do it together on Fridays. And again, remember,
(06:31):
we had no money. So we went to a wonderful
Christian place that based it on your income and worked
with us until we did have the foundation and the
counseling tools to make this marriage work in combination with
partnering with God.
S4 (06:49):
Yeah, yeah, We always have a role to play in
the issue. Yes. Yeah. That's great. And Christian counseling can
obviously make a tremendous difference in that. Now, after this
marriage turnaround, you raised your children in a Christian home
with biblical values. But as a parent, you discovered we
(07:10):
can't control our adult children's choices. Talk about that.
S2 (07:15):
Well, don't we love to believe we can, right? I mean, yes,
so we got kind of caught up in that initially,
but then we realized we had to separate ourselves from
their behavior. That's when the big moment of Aha came
to us, that when we began to separate our children's
(07:36):
choices and behaviors, we started realizing that there was a
spiritual element in this. It goes back to John 1010
where it says, the enemy comes to seek, kill and destroy.
And we realized that our children were getting sucked up
in this dark and evil, evil culture. And that was
(07:58):
when we really realized it's beyond them just being rebellious
or battling some negative emotions.
S4 (08:06):
So I think you said earlier that really all three
of your children at one point were prodigals. Is that correct?
S2 (08:12):
That's correct. And they all did have very unique challenges.
And if you don't mind, I'd love to share with
you kind of in sequence how it happened. Uh, my
eldest child took the longest, and we'll end with him.
So my daughter Kaylee was my only girl, and she
was born very early and and had health challenges a
(08:32):
lot of her life. But about age 17 or 18,
she started feeling like a lot of young women that
she didn't fit in, that she wasn't as pretty as
the others. And, um, she was at a Bible study
one night and they left, and she was with a friend,
and she began to confess to this friend that she
(08:52):
was hearing voices in her head that life would be
better without her in it, and she was sobbing. And
this friend, praise the Lord, grabbed her hands and they
began to pray, and Kaylee said that there was a
warmth from her head to her toes, and she knew
it was God, because the tears dried up and she
(09:13):
began to feel such a release from these just terrible
voices in her head. And that began her turnaround. And
now she helps so many others. You know, we've got
suicide rates and depression rates and anxiety rates among among
our young children, and she's been able to really help
those with that. And then there's Lawson. And Lawson, uh,
(09:37):
is a wonderful, sweet man. And he went through a
very dark time. He kind of got into these kind
of walkthrough concerts, these concerts that you take a lot
of drugs and you literally are kind of like a zombie.
He was into drugs and alcohol and it was really
a tough, rough time. Uh, what happened with him was
(10:00):
a very unique battle. Uh, the enemy we feel like
did a full on assault for Lawson. There was a
24 hour period that Lawson could have died. And when
I mean that, I mean physically died. He fell downstairs.
He aspirated. He a lot of things. He he he
went to a neighbor's house, and he hit Lawson in
(10:22):
the face where he had a a cut that required
plastic surgery. What happened was very incredible. Steve, my husband
went down to check on him. I had an option
for Steve to go check on him, and Steve stayed
with him for a lot of this battle. And Lawson
woke up, y'all. He was 24, 25 years old in
(10:42):
his father's arms. And he said, I am so sorry.
I will never, ever have another day that I don't
remember every second. And so that touch of God saving
him from that demonic attack, you know, changed him forever.
And now he helps young men that battle a lot
(11:03):
of these pressures. And then Steven is my wonderful eldest child.
He saw something about age 12 at a neighbor's house.
It was porn. And he believes, as he looks back,
that that was the gate that the enemy used to
really the next 15 years was drugs, alcohol, womanizing. And
(11:26):
his story is most powerful to me because 15 years
he made self-destructive choices. He he lived in the pit
and he was at a party, y'all high on cocaine
and was calling an Uber, and the Uber driver picked
him up. And it happened to be a pastor from
another country trying to raise money for his church. And
(11:47):
he said, I feel like I need to pray for you, Stephen.
And Stephen said, mom, I knew I was high. But
when he started praying, the presence of God came in
so heavy in this Uber car that it pressed me
to the floorboard, and I began to cry and beg
him to quit praying. And he said, I knew, mom.
I knew it was the presence of God coming in
(12:09):
to rescue me. And again, this was a touch of
God that no man can dispute. And that was the
beginning of Stephen's journey of healing and getting well again.
S4 (12:23):
You shared with us, uh, the three children and something
of the nature of what they went through and how
the satanic attacks upon their lives, trying to pull them
into lifestyles that were obviously not Christian. So, uh, as
they went through all of this, uh, through these various years,
was there a point in your own life dealing with
(12:45):
all this that you experienced? You know, deep pain or
struggle or thoughts? What what was going on in your
heart and mind while while they were involved in this
kind of lifestyle?
S2 (12:56):
Well, I can tell you my heart was broken a
million times. You know, I would think that they would
make a change and they didn't. And, uh, I was
very grateful. I'm so glad we started with the marriage resurrection.
Because once you've tasted and seen that power in your life,
you can believe it for others. And so that was
(13:18):
the anchor for Steve and I, as we continue to
watch our children under this influence of the dark world,
that our children with technology and phones and all the
things that they that they are exposed to, we began
to make a a plan that we were going to
stand united. You know how kids love to, her, you know. Say,
(13:42):
mom says. And dad says so in the lowest point
when we were just going, are our kids ever going
to turn around? We realized that and and we addressed it.
And then we decided that, you know, it says in
the scripture, A house divided will certainly fail. And and
that's when we really decided we were going to stand together,
(14:03):
and we were going to stand in the gap and
wait for God to make a turnaround for us.
S4 (14:09):
Yeah. Now, lots of times, husbands and wives, uh, have
different responses in how to how they should or ought
to respond. Did you and your husband have some differences
in that?
S2 (14:23):
Absolutely. And it doesn't take long if you're ever around
Steve and I, he's the logic, the reason. And I'm
the energetic, uh, you know, passionate outcry. Uh, I can
remember specifically one night, uh, both both children gotten a
lot of trouble. And I can remember we had at
(14:44):
that time a three story house, and I would I
was crawling up and down the stairs, literally wailing. And
Steve came up to me and he said, is this
a put on? Are you? And I go, no, Steve,
I want these kids to see what a mama's broken
heart looks like. Yes, we reacted very differently, but effectively,
(15:07):
you know, they they knew that dad would always be
the one that logically, scientifically tried to do it. And
then they also knew that I was passionate about helping
them get out of these pits.
S4 (15:20):
Yeah, yeah. So in your book, you talk about warfare
strategy for parents. Explain what that means and how that
worked out in your own situation.
S2 (15:33):
Well, again, that was the big aha moment when we
realized we were battling much more than a kid slamming
the door, or even a kid flipping another car under
alcohol influence. We realized there was a dark army to seek,
kill and destroy these children, and we knew that Jesus
had given us the victory, but we had to really
(15:57):
armor up. We became warrior parents, and we began to
dig deeper and find ways in the spirit that we
could help our children find protection and provision until they
turn their lives around.
S4 (16:16):
And the whole thing of spiritual battle. A lot of
parents in today's culture, that's a strange thing for them,
the spiritual dimension to this, you know, they they blame drugs,
they blame a lot of other things in culture that
led their children away. But as Christians, we know we
are in a spiritual battle, right?
S2 (16:37):
Absolutely. And I think we got to the point that
we had nothing to lose, right? I mean, once we
realized that we're in a spiritual battle, then we kind
of knew, man, we're going full in. We're going to
plead the blood of Jesus over these kids. We're going
to dig deeper in a personal way ourselves so that
(16:57):
we can stand strong in the battle. It was powerful
because we also realized our authority in this and our
identity because, again, you know, 15 years is a long
time to watch a kid make choice after choice that
was self-destructive or that was destroying his destiny. You have
(17:20):
to realize this is a spiritual battle. And not only
do we need to stand in the gap for our
children and pray in a way we never have in
the power of the blood of Jesus, but we also
got to dig deep with God and partner with him
so he can sustain us through it.
S4 (17:37):
Yeah. So what's the difference between warfare strategy and and
the traditional parenting models or methods that that we're familiar with?
S2 (17:49):
Well, I think that's what makes both of these books unique,
because I absolutely identify that we've got to do some
things in the natural. Right. I mean, we've got to
emulate the behaviors that we want our children to do.
I mean, we've got to live the life, too. We
also have got to have boundaries. You know, we can't
(18:10):
just sit there and allow them to live in chaos
and rebellion. So I do believe with everything in me,
this is if I y'all could see my hands. I've
got one half of a circle in the physical and
then the other half in the spiritual. But the spiritual
will always, always override because it does take the power
(18:32):
of God. It does take the power of God to
bring prodigals back around. Only God can touch a heart
and turn it around. And so that is the difference.
We've got to rely on the spiritual element much more,
and be aware of the spiritual element than anything else.
S4 (18:54):
And allowing God as you see it, to build into
us the kind of character and lifestyle that we would
like to see in our children. You know, one of
the questions I ask myself along the way, when we
were raising our two children about different issues, I asked myself,
what if my children turn out to be like me?
(19:15):
What if they drive a car the way I drive
a car? What if they treat their spouse the way
I treat mine? What if they. And right on down
the line. And I made some really significant changes through
the years by simply asking that question. Uh, because, you know,
we we are called upon to model what we say
we believe. You know the lifestyle we believe God wants
(19:37):
us to have. So I think that whole thing of
you use the word emulate for them what we would
like to see happening in their lives.
S2 (19:46):
I used to have a sign on my refrigerator that said,
you can do what you see me do, and you
can say what you see me and hear me say.
And boy, was that a litmus test for me as
a mama. Yes.
S4 (19:59):
Yep yep yep. Absolutely. So I think I like the
emphasis you make, you know? Yes, God wants to help us.
God can do things we can't do. But God also
expects to work in us and through us as parents.
So there are young prodigals. There are adult prodigals. Is
there a common theme to those journeys?
S2 (20:23):
I think the common theme would be the culture, the media,
the influences like we've never seen before. I say all
the time we're a click away. Our children, whether they're
15 or 50 or a click away from making that
self-destructive choice or that, you know, addiction, reigniting that, or
(20:45):
looking at things we shouldn't or receiving things. So I
would say the common theme to both is just the opportunity,
the absolute ease to get into evil with without any effort.
S4 (21:01):
Yeah, I think all parents would agree with what you've
just said. It's a totally different world from a past generation,
you know, in raising children. So talk talk to the
listener who has a young prodigal. They're still living in
the home. They're still young. They're not out of high
school yet. What's the first step that they they might
(21:22):
take in a process of being taken a warfare strategy?
S2 (21:26):
Yes. And again, I think the first thing is just
to To recognize that you indeed are in a spiritual
battle and spiritual warfare of your child. Secondly, I would
ask a parent, are you praying for your child? Because
if you're not praying for your child, then who is?
So I really not say that out of condemnation. I
say it out of conviction. And then, of course, you know,
(21:49):
I believe with everything in me, when I started integrating
the power of the blood of Christ in my prayers,
that it just took it to a new level. And
another thing I would say with a young prodigal, where
I think I failed the most was Steve, and my
eldest was the first real prodigal. And I think as
(22:10):
a Christian mom, I thought I was protecting him from
the world by not really talking about all of the
things they could get into. So if you haven't started
those conversations, it's never too late. You know, you can
sit down with your 12, 14, 15 year old and say, listen,
I don't think we've ever talked about, man. The pressures
(22:31):
you're under and just start a conversation. You will immediately
see a shift in that prodigal, because they will see
that you really do get where they are.
S4 (22:45):
Yeah. I think conversation is something that sometimes parents don't
know how to initiate or struggle with, how to bring
up the topic, or where to bring up the topic,
and not waiting until they, the child, is displaying, you know,
wrong behavior. Well, I remember when my son was a teenager,
(23:07):
a young teenager. I went down once a month on
Saturday night to the juvenile detention center and played ping
pong with the young man in there and then, you know,
had conversations with him. I started taking him with me.
You know, he wasn't drinking or anything. I just took
him with me. And on the way home after we would,
I'd say, you know, Derrick, think about it that kids
(23:28):
your age and under alcohol, he did something that was
wrong has got him in this situation. Yeah, just just
planting seeds like that. Different conversations. And I think sometimes
it takes a book or some ideas for parents to
realize or to instigate, uh, meaningful conversation, you know, with
(23:52):
their children and listening to the children as a part
of talking. Right? I mean, it's a part of a conversation.
It's not just you talking to them. It's letting them
ask you questions.
S2 (24:00):
Yes. That is so powerful and true.
S1 (24:07):
This is the Building Relationships with Doctor Gary Chapman podcast.
He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, The
Five Love Languages. You can take an easy assessment of
your love language and see our featured resources today at
Five Love Languages. Com Lane Lawson Craft has written Warfare
Parenting A Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your Child
(24:30):
and the parents Battle plan Warfare Strategies to Win back
Your prodigal. Just go to five Love languages.
S3 (24:40):
Lane. Just before the break, you were talking about having
a conversation. I think there's a lot of Christian parents
listening who are afraid to have the conversation because they
want to know what's going on in their son or
daughter's life, and yet at the same time, they don't
want to know. They want to believe that everything is okay.
They want to believe, you know, God's in control here.
(25:01):
He's going to have his way and the child's life.
And so it's hard. It's difficult when you hear some
of the things, the stresses that they're under and the
things that they're exposed to. It's really difficult to hear
that talk to that parent who who feels that way.
S2 (25:17):
Yes. I call that digging our heads in the sand.
I absolutely challenged parents today to be courageous and it
is hard. I'll never forget having to talk the words
that I never dreamed I'd have to say about pictures
coming into their phone, or them sending out pictures. These
(25:40):
are hard and tough conversations. But again, our culture, our media,
our entertainment, everything else is impacting and influencing their choices.
So we as parents, if we don't stand in there
and open these hard conversations, then we're not equipping them
(26:01):
for you know, how to deal with it. Sadly, you
have to start so much younger with these conversations. I
think the average age for a child to see porn
is now 6 or 7 years old. So we have
got to start talking to our children as Christian parents
because we are stewarding God's child, and we have got
(26:24):
to equip them for the battle themselves. So if we
don't address it, if we don't take that courage and
sit down with them and start hearing the things that
maybe you don't want to hear, but guiding them back,
that's the key. We want to be the ones that
guide them back with the right knowledge, you know, with
(26:46):
the right conversations.
S4 (26:48):
Yeah. My strong conviction is if parents do not open
conversations with their children about these issues early on, they're
not going to come to you and bring up the
topic because in their minds, well, I don't know. You know,
they're wrestling with the whole thing themselves, but they're not
(27:10):
going to initiate the conversation. But if you bring it up,
then they will realize, oh, it's okay to talk about this.
And so they will come to you when they're struggling
two weeks or two months or two years down the road.
So yeah, conversations are so important. Now you emphasize the
importance of prayer and spiritual armor during the fight for
(27:32):
your child. So how does your warfare parenting movement, as
it were, contribute to the larger spiritual awakening in families?
S2 (27:44):
Well, I think we've all seen that the family is
under attack. We've got high divorce rates. I think the
latest Barna research showed that Christian marriages don't survive any
more than a non-Christian marriage. Then we also have, I believe,
a statistic that's unbelievable, but I think it's close to 40%
(28:05):
of children being born today are being born without a
mom and dad. Uh, and most of these don't even
get married. So the enemy is already trying to destroy
God's design for family. and his second on salt attack
are these children. And what I also want to share
(28:26):
today is these assaults, I believe are destiny changers. Meaning,
you know, it says that God has a plan, a
a wonderful plan for all of us. And Jesus said
he died to give us an abundant life. Well, I
believe with everything in me, the enemy is out to
get these kids early, get them into depression where maybe
(28:50):
they make wrong choices, maybe get them addicted to something that,
you know, spirals them down. I, I believe with everything
in me that parents today we must get our spiritual
armor together and we must learn to partner with God. First.
S4 (29:09):
Reflect back on what would it look like in a
Christian home when the parents are taking the spiritual part
of life seriously in terms of daily routines in the home.
What does it look like to be bringing the spiritual
part into the daily life of our children when they're younger?
S2 (29:32):
Yes. I think if I had to do it all
over again, I would have probably started reading the Word
of God that I have now, in my later years,
learned to love each word. I would have started letting
them learn to love the word, that we remove this
religious part of it that you have to do, and
(29:53):
you have to read. It really should become a lifestyle.
If you're a parent today and you've got children, I
would think that the most important thing is that they
see you reading maybe your little devotion every morning with
your coffee. Maybe they see you take food to someone
that's sick. Start these small deposits in your own lifestyle
(30:17):
so that your children start to recognize what kindness is.
You know what empathy is. All of those things continue
to build again. I really believe that learning that the
Word of God is like an instruction book. It's not
rules for you to follow and maybe fall short of.
(30:41):
It's an instruction book that God loved you so much.
He said, this is the way to live so that
you can live in the best purposes that I have
for you.
S4 (30:51):
Yeah. What is the role of the church in partnering
with parents in the raising of children?
S2 (30:59):
Well, it's significant and I believe that we are missing
the mark. I don't see enough family ministries going, you know,
2020 really changed the dynamics of everything. We're all having
to use new models. I believe that the church must
step up. We must help these single mothers. We with
(31:22):
these kids, we must empower and equip parents on ways
to tackle what our kids are hearing and seeing and
being exposed to. I think the church plays a vital part,
and my hope and dream is that one day, every
church in America will have a warfare parenting small group.
(31:43):
Use these books as curriculums to bring parents that love
the Lord, but their kids are in a battle and
they can come in and pray together and build a
community of faith and learn, you know, different ways to
tackle these things that they are challenged with today.
S4 (32:02):
You know, I think, of course, churches are different, individual
churches are different. But the churches that have programs geared
to children of all ages where the church is complimenting.
You know what they're getting in the home to me
is a is a powerful ministry of the church. We
have folks who are in churches where you don't have
(32:25):
a children's ministry. You don't have a youth ministry. Can
I challenge you to do what you can to stimulate
that and get that started in your church? Because the
parents are the key influencers. But those kind of programs
in the churches can also have a tremendous positive impact
(32:45):
on our children.
S2 (32:47):
Yes, they can. And and, you know, I think probably
the greatest challenge on a personal level when I had
these prodigals was I felt so isolated at the time.
I published a national magazine in every bookstore in America
and Canada with covers like Dolly Parton and, uh, many
(33:07):
times and the Duck Dynasty women, women of significance in
our culture, but had faith as a root that is
so important to create a place where a Christian parent
doesn't feel like they're walking this journey alone.
S4 (33:22):
Yeah, well, let's say that a parent has a prodigal child,
and they are involved in any number of things that
are non-biblical. How can the parent of that adult I'm
thinking of adult children now. How can that parent stay
connected with them, um, without condoning their their sinful behavior?
S2 (33:48):
Well, I say that's probably one of the toughest parts, really,
because it is an adult child. And we say to ourselves,
they should know better, right? So we sometimes in human
nature just want to, like I said, cut them off
until they turn around. But what I have found is
(34:09):
that unconditional love is really the healing balm for many families.
And what I mean by that. Yes, you don't have
to love their choices or their lifestyles, but I do think.
Reaching out to them out of like from my perspective,
my heart, my. The mother's heart, you know, reach out
(34:30):
to them, maybe by a letter and just say, I
don't know if I ever really told you about how
wonderful it was the day we brought you home. Make
good deposits, showing them the love that you truly have
for them. And again, I love to tell parents the
words I'm sorry can change everything. You know, I'm sorry
(34:55):
that we're here. You're not saying you're sorry for maybe how,
you know, you had to put boundaries up. You're saying
I'm sorry that we've ended up here. Can we try
to meet for coffee? Can we discuss how wonderful all
of those past times were and find a way to
start over.
S4 (35:16):
What is the role of boundaries and what? And can
you give us some examples of the kind of boundaries
that we might, might establish for, for their benefit and
our benefit?
S2 (35:26):
Yes. I think it was probably the toughest thing for me,
because it took me many years to realize that I
was playing a part of their wrong choices, meaning I
was continuing to give them, you know, a weekly allowance.
I was replacing the car that they flipped. I had
(35:47):
to realize, do I want to be a part of
their self-destructive, or do I want to make it consequential?
None of us. You make changes until we feel a
little pain. And so tough love. Yes, I had to
show tough love. I had to cut them off financially.
I had to alienate myself at some points, just to
(36:10):
show them that I could not accept the choices they
were making. I'm not going to be mamby pamby about it.
It's it's one of the hardest things as a parent
to do. But again, I like to say, I don't
want you to have regrets. I think if I had
not done the tough love and continued to supply the
necessities to to make these choices in their lives that
(36:34):
were not the best for them, then I would have
had a lot of regrets.
S4 (36:39):
The whole thing of consequences for wrong behavior. Even when
God forgives us, we still suffer the consequences of what
we did if it was wrong. I think a lot
of times Christians have the idea that, you know, God
forgives and everything is perfect. Uh, but but that's not true.
You just you mentioned, for example, uh, wrecking a car
(37:01):
and under the influence of alcohol. Uh, God can forgive
us for what we did wrong, but the car's still wrecked,
you know. And so how do we, uh, do what
God does? Follow his example and let our children suffer
the consequences of their behavior. Any particular illustration come to
(37:24):
your mind of that with one of your children? Of
letting them suffer the consequences of their behavior?
S2 (37:32):
Yes. And and again, it's painful. Right? But it is
one of the best ways for them to, I like
to say, stew in it a minute, you know, just
sit there and realize not only how they've hurt themselves,
but the people that love them. Yeah. So yes, it's tough.
S4 (37:54):
What was one of the first signs that you saw
in one of your prodigals? Uh, making a turn away
from a destructive lifestyle?
S2 (38:03):
I think I would like to use Steven Stephen because
it was such a long journey. And when he was
touched by God that that night in the Uber, he
realized the power of God. God became very personal to him.
It wasn't just this thing he read in the Bible
(38:25):
or went to church and worshiped it. It became a
very personal relationship with him. And I started seeing small
steps of just repentance. Um, I can't tell you how
many times he said, you know, in the beginning. Mom,
I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. All the pain I've
(38:45):
caused you and daddy and and truly staying in that journey.
You know, we'd heard some of that in the past,
but this time he really marked it, and it was significant.
S4 (38:58):
Earlier, when you're talking about prayer, you talked about the
whole the power of of claiming victory or declaring victory,
even in the midst of spiritual struggles that are still
going on. Talk a bit about that.
S2 (39:15):
Well, it's one of my favorite things to talk about, really,
and I call it the mean time because I call
the mean time. It's when we offer a prayer to God,
turn this kid around, God, please touch him. And then
the waiting. And I talk about how it can get
so mean. In the meantime, you start getting disappointed. You
(39:36):
get discouraged again. Those feelings of guilt or shame or
isolation start coming into you. And so what I say is,
we've got to stand in the Word of God and
declare it for ourselves and for our family and for
our children. And then I, I begin to find promises
from the Lord and and just speak them over our
(39:58):
family and our children, all of these things. See, they
edify and encourage us as parents, but it overflows to
the children until they turn around. I just love the
fact that when we dig deep in the trenches with
God and partner with him and realize it's his battle,
(40:20):
but we're going to partner and do everything in the
physical and in the supernatural spiritual realm. Then God comes
in and we just in the meantime, wait for the
expectantly for him to move on our behalf and for
our children.
S4 (40:35):
Yeah. Let's talk a bit about a prodigal who, in
the midst of their lifestyle, actually dies. It could be
in an accident, you know, or or just physical things
responding to drugs and alcohol or whatever. And that parent
(40:56):
feels guilty. Where do they go from there?
S2 (41:00):
I'm so glad you asked this today because I didn't
want to come across as Pollyanna. I don't believe you
do this and that and you get an outcome. We
certainly see we've got fentanyl poisonings again. We've got suicide
rates that are off the charts. I have a chapter
in the parents battle plan. It's it's when the worst
(41:20):
happens and my heart breaks for any parent that has
outlived their child, that's not the way God designed it.
But I wanted to let them know. I understand that
it happens, right? And I say to parents, we pray
for miracles, for our prodigals or for our children that
are struggling. But you didn't get the miracle you asked
(41:44):
God for, but you are living a miracle. And what
I mean by that is you're able to get up
in the morning and get through the day, and that's
because of God's loving strength in your life. And the
only hope that we all have is the promise from
God and revelations 21 four and it says, you know,
(42:04):
there will be no more sorrow, no more pain when
we get to heaven. And so we have to stand
on that promise of reuniting with that child one day
in heaven. That's the miracle that they get.
S4 (42:19):
You know, sometimes say to parents who sit in my
office and say, what did we do wrong? That our
child turned out this way? And I say to them, well,
ask God. I mean, if you did wrong, God will
show you where you did wrong, and you can confess
that to God, and God will forgive you. But then
(42:40):
let me remind you, God's first two children went wrong.
Adam and Eve. They had a perfect father, and yet
they made poor decisions. So don't take the full responsibility
of your adult children's wrong decisions on yourself. Don't take
(43:02):
the blame for something your adult child is doing. God
gives all of us freedom to follow him or not
to follow him. And we have to give our adult
children that same kind of freedom that they have to
make decisions to follow God or not to follow God.
So it is it's very painful to see parents go
(43:24):
through this. And particularly if a child dies in the
midst of, you know, being a prodigal. So when a
prodigal does return, however, which is what we pray for
and what we hope for, what are some of the
steps toward forgiveness and healing? Uh, in the in the
process of restoring the relationship?
S2 (43:44):
Well, it's not easy and it's not simple. Remember, now,
Steven was 15 years into just making poor choices, and
so I had to make a shift in my own heart.
Originally and initially. And that was to look at him
through God's eyes. I started seeing him as broken, and
(44:07):
when I started doing that, I was able to love
him through a forgiveness that is beyond me. I say
the Holy Spirit is the one that helps us walk
this out. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the
one that helps us forgive. It's very difficult to forgive.
Those that have betrayed us, lied to us, took us
(44:29):
for granted. So one of the first steps, I would
say mom or dad or grandparent or whoever that has
this loved one that has turned around and needs forgiveness,
is to have that eternal lens and that unconditional love
in your heart through the power of the Holy Spirit.
And you know, we mentioned the words I'm sorry again.
(44:52):
You know, I say they're the two most powerful words.
It's not saying you did anything wrong. It's saying, I'm
sorry we're even here. And I'm just so thankful for
this step of reconciliation. And I'm going to forgive you.
And I'm going to love you unconditionally. And that begins
the process of healing.
S4 (45:14):
Forgiveness is not a feeling, is it? It's a choice.
S2 (45:19):
Right?
S5 (45:20):
We can still feel hurt.
S4 (45:21):
We can still be grieved over the lost time and
the lifestyle and all of that. And we can still
feel hurt. We can even feel angry toward them. But
forgiveness is that choice to pardon them. Which is what
exactly what God does for us to pardon them, and
also to remove the barrier that this has created between us,
(45:44):
so that we can, in the future, move to having
a more positive relationship. Yeah, forgiveness is a key issue.
No question about that. Tell us again. You mentioned a
little bit about where your children are today. But but
tell us, since you shared each of them, where are
they today in their journey?
S2 (46:03):
Well, I just want to throw a party, don't you?
Isn't it a time of celebration to to see that
a child that you know was 15 years in a
journey in the pit of hell can be turned around
and not just turned around? All three of my children
are entrepreneurs, like their mom and dad. Stephen, the eldest,
(46:24):
has an insurance brokerage. He's married. He has baby Elle,
who made us la la and Papa first. And we
just found out they're having another one. And then we
have Lawson, who owns his own real estate investment firm
and is a real estate agent. And then my daughter
Kaylee is married and she too has a little boy
(46:47):
that made us Lala and Papa. And now she's having
another one. And she's a fantastic artist and a real
estate agent. And just what's powerful to me is to
see how on fire these three are. Since they had
such a significant experience and personal, intimate touch of God,
(47:09):
they all three are so passionate about helping others find
this too.
S4 (47:15):
Yeah, that's powerful, isn't it? And when you think about
it and look in the New Testament, you know, the apostles,
many of the apostles were people who had a bad background.
Paul himself, who wrote so much of the New Testament,
was openly anti-God before he had his encounter with God.
(47:35):
So it's amazing how God can turn lives around and
and just make things totally different. So absolutely great. Let
me ask you this. Uh, what did God do in
your own life? Living with your children? Who who did
for these years. Little prodigal lives. What? How did God
(47:56):
use that in your own life?
S2 (47:59):
Well, you know, he works a lot out in the fire,
doesn't he? He says, you know, he the only way
to get gold to really shine is to get it
through a fire. Um, he he he really reformed me
from the inside out. I became so deeply surrendered to
him and his wills and his ways because I had
no other place to go. You know, sometimes we think, oh,
(48:22):
we'll just pray like it's the last thing. Really, it
should be the first thing. Sometimes we do that with God, right?
We we try to do everything in the natural and
in our control. But the most pivotal thing God did
through me was to teach me how to literally take
pieces of my life and bring them to the altar
and say, God, I'm bringing this to you. I'm laying
(48:44):
it down so that I know that I know you
are going to orchestrate. You are going to show me
whatever I need to do or know. And it was
so powerful. And and little did I know that all
those tears from that broken heart, that mama's broken heart
(49:04):
for years and years with three prodigals that God would
use me to help thousands of parents and loved ones
find ways to bring their prodigals home and heal their families.
It's amazing.
S4 (49:19):
Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being with
us today, and thank you for allowing God to use
all the pain and that you went through to now,
as you just said, help so many other people. And
I do believe that our listeners are going to find
these books to be extremely helpful. So thanks for keeping
(49:40):
open to God. And as you said, turning the only
place you really could turn that had any answers and saying,
thanks for being with us today.
S2 (49:48):
Thank you so much.
S3 (49:50):
Once again, the title of our featured resources are the
books by our guest, Lane Lawson Kraft Warfare Parenting A
Daily Battle Plan to Fight for Your child and the parents.
Battle plan warfare strategies to win back your prodigal. Just
go to building relationships to find out more. Again, building relationships.
S4 (50:12):
Next week, pastor and author Chip Ingram is going to
encourage us to choose joy.
S1 (50:18):
Learn how to change your perspective and change your life
in one week. Our thanks to Janice backing and Steve
Wick for their production work on today's program. Building relationships
with Doctor Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio
in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Thanks for listening.
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