July 17, 2025 • 32 mins
In this week's episode of Business Buying Strategies, we are treated to a special Q&A session from the annual Marbella retreat featuring a panel of seasoned members from Jonathan's inner circle group.
These accomplished entrepreneurs, who have collectively acquired dozens of businesses, discuss their experiences and share invaluable tips on acquiring businesses with minimal capital outlay.
The panellists, including Hari, Simon, Tim, Jon, and Ben, dive deep into topics such as the importance of getting started, whether to take a targeted or scattergun approach, managing acquisitions without creating a 'job' for oneself, and the key factors in post-acquisition success.
Additionally, they candidly share lessons learned from their own business failures and discuss strategic exits. The episode offers rich, firsthand insights, practical advice for aspiring deal-makers, and underscores the importance of learning from those who have successfully navigated the business acquisition landscape.
Key moments
00:42 Panel Discussion Introduction
01:11 Hari's Business Journey
01:58 Simon's Acquisition Experience
02:35 Tim's Business Ventures
02:57 Jon's Acquisition Success
03:24 Ben's First Acquisition
04:06 Audience Q&A: Getting Started
06:51 Audience Q&A: Targeted vs. Scattergun Approach
09:18 Audience Q&A: Selecting the Right Business
11:24 Audience Q&A: Post-Acquisition Decisions
14:02 Audience Q&A: Increasing Deal Flow
16:56 Audience Q&A: Personal Growth and Mindset
22:11 Audience Q&A: Handling Failures
25:47 Audience Q&A: Using PR for Deal Flow
28:04 Audience Q&A: Exiting Strategies
31:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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If you are looking for a lawyer in the UK to help you get the deal over the line, then use my own lawyer, John Andrews. You can phone his office at (0345) 2412494 or email him at johnandrews.deallawyer@jmw.co.uk.
Ready to get started?
Here’s how you can start your business buying journey…
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:29):
Hi, this is Jonathan Jay, and welcome toBusiness Buying Strategies, the number one
podcast for people who want to learn howto buy a business in the most practical
way without risking any of their own cash.
Now in this week's episode, wehave something slightly different.
We have an extract from one of ourpanel discussions at our annual Marbella
(00:51):
retreat, and this discussion panel is madeup of members of my inner circle group.
So these are people who havebought at least one business.
Some of the people in the panelhave bought over 10 businesses.
And in this extract, you will hear themanswering questions from the audience
about the deals that they have done.
I hope you enjoy it.
(01:11):
So Harry a quick intro, please.
. So I've been Jonathanabout five, six years now.
And I bought some salons duringlockdown straight away to pay for
they were cash flowing businesses andthat's the reason why I bought them.
And they pay for my luxury andsupercars and kids private school
fees and they've been cash flowingfor the last four, five years now and
they just keep paying me every year.
(01:33):
And then more recently bought a coupleof businesses with Tim who's over
here and that's been pretty good.
So we've bought two at I think justunder 10 million turnover giving us 1.4
net profit six months, seven months.
Yeah.
Pretty good.
That deserves a roundof applause, I think.
(01:53):
Excellent.
Thank you very much Pastor Simon.
Yeah, good afternoon.
My name is Simon Corbert.
I have been with Jonathan forjust under three years or so.
I work in pr, my agency jargonpr I was running it for 10 years.
I got it to just under 2 millionin fees and then was looking
at doing some acquisitions.
'cause organic growth was slowand we wanted to go a lot faster.
(02:17):
In the last few years we bought five otherPR agencies and two media businesses.
So we've got a combined groupnow with just over 40 staff.
And yeah, it's it's been absolutelybrilliant for me in terms of
accelerating growth, getting to whereI wanted to get to a lot quicker.
Lovely.
Great, Simon.
Thank you very much.
Welcome Tim.
(02:38):
Hi everyone.
I'm Tim.
I've been doing this for threeyears now, three a bit years.
Joined Mastermind three years ago.
Did some businesses a while agoand then I recently joined forces
with Harry back in October.
And obviously we bought a coupleof businesses since then, so we're
looking at acquiring some more as well.
Lovely.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
. Hi, I'm John.
(02:58):
. So I, I did the original course in 2019.
I've done 17 acquisitions sincethen, grown from about a million to
9 million of revenue within telecoms.
And it, I've dabbled in other bits likehotels, golf courses and stuff as well.
. Do a lot of distressed acquisitions,mainly 'cause I'm tight.
And I'd much prefer to buy something andenjoy the chaos than do anything sensible.
(03:19):
Great.
Thank you.
John.
Welcome.
Hi, my name's Ben.
, I've been here about a year.
I had acquired a business, but by luck,not through it, it didn't go well.
It went okay, but it wasn'tthe best business to buy.
And now I acquired my first one throughJonathan's teaching in in December.
(03:40):
So I bought a business it did 8million revenue in the last financial
year that I paid 600,000 upfront withthe, of the business own cash and and
in Q1 we've done almost a deferredconsideration in profit . And I've
got six businesses in the group now.
Three of them.
I've started organically and theother three are acquisitions.
(04:04):
. Nice one, let's do some questions.
Who's got some questions?
Got a question.
Raise your hand.
Got a question for the guys, this is agreat opportunity by the way, because
something you learn from the people who'vealready done it, not from people who are
on the same level as you at that stage.
. So looking to obviously just signedup with deal makers looking to
acquire my first business, what'sthe first thing to do and the first
(04:25):
thing not to do in your experience?
The first thing to do, there'sno there's no magic source.
It's just start making the phonecalls, start sending letters, and
start having the conversations.
. 'Cause you're not gonna buy abusiness unless you start having them.
It doesn't matter what stampsyou use, what color your
letters are and all that stuff.
Actually, that's the important bit.
And I remember on my, I did mastermindthree years ago, and I remember
(04:47):
there were people buying businessesmonth six, month seven, month eight.
And there were people on the mastermindwho was still deciding whether
they were gonna send letters out.
And you can guess who were thepeople that did deals and who
were the people that didn't.
So just get stuck in, even if you don'twanna buy the business, it's just practice
with them and just run the process.
So that's what, that's probablywhat, so the first thing to do.
So the first thing todo is just get started.
(05:08):
Correct.
Yeah.
So there isn't, like you said,there isn't like a magic formula.
It is just get going.
Just get launched.
And the thing to remember is you'renot making a do or die decision.
You're making, not making adecision you have to live with
for the rest of your life.
You are, you're just getting startedand you're speaking to people with
absolutely zero obligation until yousign the sale and purchase agreement.
There's no obligation up until that point.
(05:31):
You'd be silly to put out atthat point, you, there is no
obligation till that point.
Sure.
So just get going.
And I think as well, and if you're nervousabout doing it, it's like normally to be
nervous about having the calls, right?
If it's, it's, you gotta start somewhere.
And I think the worse you are, thebetter it is because the worse you
are, the chances of that seller evertalking to you again are slim because
you've been so bad on the call, it'sthe ones where you were really close
(05:51):
and you're like, oh, I did a pretty goodjob there, but didn't quite get there.
They're more annoying than the oneswhere you were awful, if so just get
stuck and it doesn't really matter.
You never have to talkto the people again yeah.
In terms of something not todo, I would say absolutely.
Don't overthink it.
So when I started doing theletters we have a second business,
which is a suite of business tobusiness trade media, magazines.
(06:13):
And I sent out around a thousandletters and within the first week of
doing it, I had just under 40 calls.
And I learned so muchfrom all of those calls.
And I know in the materials that you'llget, there's templates and q and as and
pointers on how to structure these, but.
I learned so much from havingthe same conversation with
nearly 40 different people.
(06:34):
And so I would say, yeah, it'ssomething not to don't overthink it.
Just dive in and go for it.
As you say, it's not, you're notmaking life changing decisions here.
You're not going to and the overthinkingcreates procrastination and then you end
up doing nothing and you're no better off.
Thanks Jonathan.
My name's Ra I'm actually a colleague ofaids we're both starting out together.
On the startup journey youcan make a plan, but no plan
ever stands first contact.
(06:56):
So how much of what, when you started,was it targeted versus scatter gun?
'cause I'm hearing different approacheshere in terms of different sectors
and if you set out a plan, did itgo according to plan or did you
end up in a completely differentplace with your first transaction?
Okay, so I obviously meant I worked inthat in telecoms already, so I usually
had a traded business, so it was logicalfor me to carry on in that track.
(07:19):
Got distracted with a hotel andgolf course six months before COVID.
You can need to stick to what, if, that'sprobably the biggest lesson I've learned
from buying stupid is just 'cause thedeal's there, you don't need to do it.
Yeah.
And if you don't know, you don't know whatyou don't know, and if you dunno how to
run a hotel, then buying one just 'causeit's cheap probably isn't a good idea.
So I probably wouldn'trecommend scatter gun.
(07:40):
And you need to be laser focusedon exactly what you want.
And then by doing that, when youlook at 20 different businesses
in the same sector, you start tosee nuances in their accounts.
You start to see nuances in the waythey work, and then you'll realize what
is a good one versus what's a bad one.
Sure.
Whereas if it's just random, then there'sno lessons to be learned from that.
Yeah.
Thanks.
(08:00):
I'm gonna probably say somethingcompletely opposite to John.
So when we did our, we, like Isaid, we started working together
in October and we sent out a load ofletters in like a targeted sector.
And the one that we did the deal on wasactually, I dunno how it ended up in that
kind of bracket with the market data.
And that's the one we did the dealon and then we just started doing
targeted letters in that sector.
(08:23):
We didn't know the sectorbut we knew there was quite a
strong management team Yeah.
In place within the company, whichmeant we could go in, which I know
it's different, but that's how weended up so it's completely random.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Yeah, for me, focus is super important.
So of the five PR agencies I've boughtfour were B2B Tech and that's what we
do all B2B Tech, we got 120 clients,biggest clients, meta three offices.
(08:47):
And the of the five I've done, theone that went wrong was the third one
and that wasn't quite in our space.
They did PR for industrial manufacturing.
Yeah.
Companies.
So companies that would make likeconveyor belts or pickers and packers.
And we thought, it's a gooddeal, prs, pr, we can do this.
And we learned the hard waythat yeah, it's not the case.
(09:07):
It's a very specific marketknowledge to do PR in that sector.
For me it's all about focus, I would say.
Thanks, appreciate your thoughts.
Yeah, great questionand fantastic answers.
My question is that I'm looking tobuy business, but they're not as
big as like having a team in placealready, like management team.
How do you select what you're looking for?
(09:29):
Thank you.
I think Jonathan saidthis earlier as well.
Don't, unless you want to,you're not buying a job.
So I would try and get at leastsome sort of management in place.
So you've gotta, if you look atthe business and just say if I take
you out, what's it gonna look like?
If you go on holiday for threeweeks or a month or a year?
Is that still gonna be around?
And if it's not, then it'sprobably not the one you wanna go
for, but it's a personal thing.
If you want to actually be involvedwith that's great, but that's
(09:51):
not we, what we are all here for.
But I would look to have someone thatyou don't wanna build the team out.
It's gonna be very difficult.
It'll take time.
Yeah.
I would say if the business doesn'thave an existing management team or
a good number two, that's maybe notquite the right business for you.
And you should maybe try andthink a tiny bit bigger because
we get a lot of that in pr.
There's a lot of people that run themas lifestyle businesses where they take
(10:15):
a bit of money, but they're doing allthe real work and they want to leave.
And it's not what I'd call abusiness, it's just a, it's
just a kind of a lifestyle.
So I'd, yeah, I'd say besuper careful at that.
Otherwise you could be buying a job.
I'm probably gonna disagree with everyone.
So I, I had a trading business like,some of you here and I operated in that.
Until probably 18 months, two years ago.
And it took 15 acquisitions and10 years of growth to, to get to
(10:38):
a point where I could step away.
I am fortunate to be in a sectorwhere we can take small businesses
without management teams andjust fold it into what we're
doing and carry on and go again.
So it doesn't, I don't haveto buy management of what I'm
buying is customer contracts.
And if you're in that sort ofworld, if you've got something that
you can fold into it, who cares?
As long as it's accretive andit adds to what you're doing.
(10:59):
But yeah, it took me 10 years beforeI got out of operating the day to day.
(11:24):
So after acquisition, what arethe decisions you have taken that
turn out to be very good one?
. And the one which you should recommendus not to do in very early stages.
I'll go first because I've got the mic.
Because most of what I do is distressed.
There's a massive lack ofdue diligence possible.
(11:44):
So where most people on this panelwill take three or four months to
do a deal, I will do a deal in twoor three days, maybe a week maximum.
And so I end up doing a lot of theDD post acquisition not before.
And it's quite invasiveand that's where I excel.
I like the chaos of it all but Iwouldn't necessarily recommend it.
But I really will get under theskirt of a business in the first
(12:05):
few days looking for where bodiesare buried, which is generally you'd
recommend doing beforehand, but Ijust don't have the time to do that.
I'd probably say we spoke aboutthis yesterday, but the biggest
thing is working capital and cash oncashflow when you're doing the deal.
'cause there's always thatnegotiation on how much money's
left in the bank or whatever.
And I've made mistakes in the pastwhere there hasn't been enough.
(12:28):
And that was probably the biggest thing.
I'm like, do not understate how much cashyou're going to need, if that makes sense.
So yeah, working capital is probably thebiggest mistake I've made in the past.
So for me, PR is a people business.
All my assets walk in the doorat nine and go home at half five.
And I'd say the biggest thing for meis explaining to the staff and the
(12:48):
management team you are requiringwhat the new world will look like.
Because things will inevitably , bedifferent whether it's processes,
procedures, offices, anything like that.
So I'd, I, yeah, I'd be super focusedon that and especially to the new
owner if they are staying withyou for a period of time, like all
(13:08):
of the owners have been with me.
Of the PR agencies I'veacquired, we've typically done
a two or three year handover.
'cause I've wanted their knowledgeand contacts and expertise.
They are for the first time goingto have a boss and that's me.
And it's very likely they've, they'verun their own agency for 20 years.
They've forgotten whatit's like to have a boss.
(13:28):
So just explaining how I would like thingsto be done and what they will have to do
is would definitely be one of my top tips.
Yeah, I think just following on from Simonand the management team and empowering
them and that will filter down to the,to the troops underneath as it were.
So if I've just actually set my MDon a, on another not acquisition
course, on a management training buildhow to, like a leadership course.
(13:51):
And that for him is gonna be mind blowing.
So for him to be empowered with thatand he'll come back who will fired and
ready to go, that will then filter down.
So that's kinda my approach at the moment.
. . So I'm in my second month of sending outletters and it's slowly trickling in.
How do I increase that?
. So when did the letters land?
(14:11):
They land on a Tuesday of a week.
Last week.
Yes, so this is my secondmonth, so yes, Tuesday.
The LA last week I think.
Yes.
So from what I've found, the usually themore serious conversation, probably happy.
I probably get different answers'cause that's different for everyone.
The ones in the first week arenormally the ones that have either
tried to sell before or with abroker and they're desperate.
The ones that come two,three week post the letters
(14:34):
landing, the more serious ones.
You can't increase deal flow.
You can't force it.
But having, it's a difficult onebecause you'll do the mail out and
it's I think Jonathan gave the exampleyears ago, well over the years of the
Domino's leaflet through the door, youget 'em every week and you might not
want it that day, but there'll be a daythat you actually want that Domino's.
So it's the same sort of thing.
They might not be ready to sell today, butthere could be a health or whatever reason
(14:57):
for 'em to sell months down the line.
So that means just keep onsending letters, even if it's
just sending to the same people.
Just keep on Yeah, I'd say so.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
If you want more leads, send more letters.
I've spoken to lots of people over thepast couple of years and they're all
trying to what if I tweak this in myletter or do this or first class stamp
or second class stamp, or if it landson a Tuesday, no one really knows.
(15:22):
And actually.
I get it.
'cause it's like that monthlyexpense when you're just starting
out and it can be a lot of money.
But our most recent acquisition,we were meant to send them
out like January the fifth.
So just after the Christmas breakand for whatever reason they got
sent out and they all landed atfour o'clock on Christmas Eve.
And it was an absolute headache,but we had something like from 4,000
(15:43):
letters, we had like 80 responses.
And that was the most we've everhad, and it was by accident.
So I would just say if you've maxed inyour sector, find a parallel sector that
probably go together and just do themones as well and just keep, if you wanna
do more, if I don't get disheartened ifyou don't get a response straight away.
Two of the deals that I've done thatweren't distressed came from letters, but
(16:05):
they comm star, I sent him a letter inthree years later, he picked the phone up.
I, and that's not a kind of a one off.
There is countless examples of that in,in the whole kind of deal makers kind
of group where, just 'cause they'vehad a letter today, they might stick
it on a filing cabinet or stick itin their desk and then they'll have a
shit week or they'll have a stressfulperiod or they just wanna get out at
(16:26):
that point and they'll go and find it.
So it is about writing topeople regularly like it.
And telecoms with telecoms, there is4,000 telecoms companies in the uk.
I can't make any more that is, and halfof them, of course, you've got the likes
of bt, which I'm never gonna go require.
So you have to just keepbattering it on and keep going.
But just because they don't ringyou today, as I said that one was
(16:48):
three years in the making and thenthe deal was done in four weeks.
So it it happens eventually.
You just have to wait really.
Hi guys.
Thank you for your time.
Over the last two to four years,what have you learned about yourself?
How has your characterand mindset shifted?
Oh, that's a good question.
What have you learned aboutyourself and how has your
(17:08):
character and mindset shifted?
I'm the newest to the group,so I've learned loads.
I've, a year ago I knew verylittle about acquisitions.
Now I can go into a room and seem likeI kinda know what I'm talking about.
some People in the room will know.
I've gone through probablyquite a dramatic transformation
over the last two years.
So as I stepped away from the businessat 26 stone and could barely walk up
(17:31):
the stairs without being really tiredI've gone on a massive mindset, health.
Transformation of lost12 stone in that time.
I've climbed two of the seven summitswith a third one booked in for November.
I've done the London Marathon andlife is just totally different.
And so yeah, there's a positivity change,there's a self-belief, and I always knew
where my burnout level was for work.
(17:53):
I don't know where it is froma personal level yet, and I'm
desperately trying to find it.
Hence why I keep tryingto climb stupid mountains.
But I just, I'm trying to find outwhere my limit is so that I can operate
just below it at peak performance andmaintain that for as long as possible.
It's gonna be tough to follow that one.
Yeah, I think I've always beenquite, quite an optimistic person.
(18:14):
And one of the things, and I rememberstarting mastermind a while ago, and I was
always thinking, when you do it, you'rehaving dozens of calls every week and
everyone's telling you to get lost becauseyour price is too high or this and that.
And do you know what I mean?
I'm sure you've all had allthese calls, you're just thinking
it's not gonna go anywhere.
And then I've always thought ifthere's someone else doing it, so
there's no reason why I can't do itif I just copy what they're doing.
(18:37):
And I was talking to Jonathan aboutthis and he's helping me with this.
It's like now that we've starteddoing sort of seven figure profit
deals, I was, we are looking at stepchange, trying to do a step change and
trying to move into the realms of 40,50, 60 million turnover businesses.
'cause someone's doing it, sothere's no reason why I can't do it.
(18:57):
So it's that belief that actuallyyou can push on, like if you're
sat there thinking, I can'tdo it with someone else's, so
there's no reason why you can't.
And that's probably one of thebiggest things that I've developed
over the past couple of years.
And quite a high level of stresstolerance I think as well.. I'd say
it changes who you are as a person.
And I've, for me, I've gone fromjust being a PR guy that had always
worked in PR and run PR agencies to,now you're a, you're a deal maker.
(19:21):
You're always looking at businesses.
And my, just to say my sort ofinspiration for starting this
actually came from Steven Bartlet.
I was up at an event that he did aboutsix years or so ago and when his first
book came out and I paid for a meetand greet with him and I made sure
I was the first one there in line.
And he actually turned upabout 20 minutes early.
(19:41):
So instead of the sort of obligatorytwo minutes and a photo, I got about 20
minutes with him and I was asking him howhe grew social chain to such a height.
And he said, I've got oneword for you acquisitions.
He said, I got it to, Ithink about 6 million a year.
He got it to, and hewanted to go a lot faster.
And he said he just bought in a teamto learn about acquisitions and he
(20:04):
wanted to become the best person in theworld at buying social media agencies.
And that was how he was able to scalevery quickly through acquisitions.
And his advice to me was, you knowwhat prs it's, the big contracts come
up once every three years and organicgrowth slow and all the rest of it.
You need to make yourself thebest person in the world at
(20:25):
buying B2B Tech, PR agencies.
And once you understand how to do that,you can grow and scale a lot faster.
So that's what I've done.
But to answer your question, I wouldsay, yeah it's totally transformational
of how you are and how you seeyourself and also how other people
see you as well, which is always nice.
. So 2010 I started a fashionbusiness, women's clothing design,
(20:48):
manufacturing, 17 years did that.
, Started and built three otherbrands within that as well.
So I thought I kneweverything about business.
We won fashion industry awards as well.
Since being on the program,it's a whole new world.
I didn't even know thiswhole world existed.
If I knew this, it's cliche.
If I knew this 15 years ago,then who knows where we'd be.
But yeah, it's great group.
It's very supportive.
As you probably noticedthe last couple of days.
(21:09):
Everyone's willing to share experiencesand fast track you guys to, I won't
say where we are, be arrogant, towhere we are, as in doing deals,
which is where you wanna be, right?
You wanna be in the inner circle,yeah, it was, when we started,
there was no inner circle was there.
I don't think Jonathan, there wasn't.
No.
So we've, with Jonathan last three years.
Yeah.
So with Jonathan's new programs, itis now launched again, it's just gonna
fast track everything for you guys.
So being part of that and being partof the community, I think . And Brian,
(21:32):
Tracy used to say that, becoming amillionaire is not about the money.
It's about the person you become onthe journey to become a millionaire.
And buying a business isn't justabout buying a business, it's
about the person you become in theprocess of buying the business.
And it is transformational because you'rewonder why you didn't do it years ago.
And you realize that now you cando this, you can do anything.
If you can buy a business with amillion of revenue, why can't you buy
(21:53):
a business with a million of profit?
If you buy a business with amillion of profit, why don't you buy
business with 10 million of profit?
If someone else is doingit, you can do it too.
And that's the motivation thatmakes you go bigger and bigger.
And of course, it's gonnabe different for everyone.
But the sky's the limit.
And the only thing to limit youis always gonna be yourself.
. A couple of you, I think John, you andSimon have had failures just interested.
(22:16):
Do you sell those companies onor just close them down, and can
you make a profit out of that?
It's a really tough one.
So we've, I've liquidated three companies.
One was the hotel and golf course thatthere was, there's a big story behind
it, but the reality is the paperworksays I lost a lot of money, but my cash
balance and the bank didn't change.
(22:37):
One, we lost 50 grand on it.
I bought it on the Friday, and weliquidated it on the Thursday because it
wasn't what we were told, it was in thetwo or three days a d deal that we had.
So we effectively lost 50 grand,but we'll probably learn more outta
that experience than any other deal.
And then we've just closedclosed our trampoline park,
which I bought for a pound.
(22:57):
Last year.
So you can't lose much if you pay apound for something to start with.
Yeah, look, liquidating a businessis never particularly easy.
It's stressful, it's shit, andit's hard work sometimes, but you
just have to have the right peoplearound just to keep you focused.
I'm lucky to now have the rightcontacts and the right insolvency
practitioners to make sure I'm protected.
(23:17):
And if you're not doing anythingnaughty business failure, it is just
one of those things, it happens.
It doesn't affect your credit,it doesn't affect your life.
I'm still sleep fine at night.
It just is what it is.
And if, when you're buying as manyas you are, and especially when I'm
buying sort effectively insolventbusinesses anyway, there's always that
inherent risk that I can't sort 'em out.
I'm not a magician.
(23:38):
I always take the viewof I didn't cause it.
So if it goes back under again, so be it.
As long as you can explainwhy it's failed to a bank or a
lender, it'll never hold you back.
You just have to tick a box on everyinsurance application you ever make to
say that you've been a director in thelast three years of a failed business.
But does it make my carinsurance any more expensive?
Who knows?
But apart from that it just is what it is.
(23:59):
, Try and take the emotion out of it.
And that actually works forthe buying side as well.
If you get emotionally tied to a deal,you'll inherently always do a bad deal.
So if you can take the emotionout of it, across the whole thing,
then it just becomes a transaction.
And the more you do, the morekind of immune you get to it.
It is just what it is.
So yeah, just try and take the emotionout of it and focus on the next
(24:22):
deal and focus on cracking on again.
Yeah, mine was slightly different.
The PR agency we bought was doing justunder 700 grand a year in revenue.
And the we'd closed that brand,moved all the contracts and staff
over to jargon pr, and unfortunatelythe lady we bought it from just.
Didn't want to cooperate andplay ball with how we did things.
(24:43):
And it became very difficult.
And within a year she wasvery difficult to work with.
So we had to have the conversation withher about she needed to change, which she
did not like at all, and decided to go.
So from then we knew that about there,about seven or eight of her staff that
had come over, they would probably go,'cause they were quite loyal to her.
We knew that if they went, probablythe clients would go as well.
(25:05):
So we, for us it was just a caseof we knew that sort of nearly 700
grand was gonna walk out the door,but then the costs decreased as well.
But I've probably learned more fromthat one that failed than the ones
that have succeeded to be honest.
But it, I agree.
It doesn't put me off doing it.
And if you are doing this stuffand never, if you wanna make an
omelet, you've gotta break eggs.
And inevitably if you are gonnakeep doing deals and growing, then
(25:28):
something's gonna go wrong at some point.
But for me, there's a good, there'sa good network around to talk to
for advice and insight and whatever.
Problem or issue I've had, someone hasalways been there and done it before.
And presumably you had the the rightcorporate structure as prescribed Yes.
To protect everything else.
Anyway, yeah, everything else was fine.
We had, we have no just tell everyonewhat you're telling me earlier, while
(25:50):
you've got the mic about the how touse PR as you are as a resident PR
expert PR to generate deal flows.
I think this would be usefulfor you all to know this.
This is a really good tactic.
Yeah.
So PR could be used as a really goodstrategic tool to help with deal flow
and also when potential sellers aredoing their due diligence on you.
(26:11):
So as well as financial and legaldue diligence, they'll Google
you put your name into LinkedIn.
So one thing we do whatever sectoryou are buying in, I know some of you
are domiciliary, care and security andaccounting, they will all have magazines
for their sector, trade media, max.
And in PR it's calledPR Week is the magazine.
Everyone in PR reads, the journaliststhat work for those magazines will
(26:36):
be always looking for content.
And when I say content, news.
And the way you present news tojournalists is through a press release.
And if you do that in a professional wayin the way they're used to receiving it,
they will start writing about you andyour businesses and what you're doing now.
The secret of writing pressreleases is all about the messaging.
(26:58):
So what you're putting in it, because whatthe journalists are reading will dictate
the headlines that they write about you.
So for example, if you are looking tobuy another three businesses in the
next 12 months, or if you're lookingfor a specific business between one
or 2 billion turnover, there's waysof putting all this content in a press
release that a Journ journalist will use.
(27:19):
So what we were talking about earlierwas after you've done your first
deal, do a press release, send itto the trade media in your magazine,
and they will write about it.
And then everyone else in that industrywill see it and they'll be looking at it,
reading, going, oh, this person's lookingto buy other businesses in this sector.
I might wanna sell mine.
(27:40):
So we use that to help withdeal flow, future deal flow.
And as I say, it's great forthe due diligence part as well.
So when you've, when you'redoing your next deal and someone
Googles you to say who's this guy?
They'll see all these nice headlinesabout you in different media, we've
got one final question and I've justsaid what's the question about just
to make sure it's a suitable finalquestion and it's a very suitable final
(28:01):
question because it's about exiting.
Okay, so over to you.
Yeah.
Do you know who you might wantto sell to and what multiples,
or is it a bit too early days?
I guess I'll start as I've got the mic.
Yeah.
For me, so it would be one of sortof mid-market PR agencies, someone
that's between 20 to 40 million a year.
Probably someone that's, they might bestrong in healthcare or consumer, but
(28:24):
they might not have a tech division.
That's very much theway the industry works.
And there's a long list of examples inthe industry of when agencies have got
through sort of big milestones, likefive or 10 million and then they've
been bought by one of the big boys.
So for me it's a very well trodden path.
Sure.
Yeah, . For companies in our sector thatare doing three, four, 5 million ebitda,
(28:45):
you're probably looking at 10 to 12 times.
Seems to be, if they're like goodquality businesses with management,
that seems to be where they're acting.
And then anything it liketapers off as you go down.
. Ah, so I've had two failedsales in three years.
The first one was a PLCthat were due to bias.
And then they went out to marketjust as Liz Trust decided to
(29:06):
completely screw up the market,so they couldn't raise the money.
Three weeks later I took the PLC privatevia administration process instead.
So we bought them insteadof them buying us.
And the original project was ProjectNorth and the acquisition project
was then Project South, which wethought was a bit funny internally.
We then had a second salethat was supposed to complete
in December last year.
It dragged on the finance ddthe company that was doing
(29:28):
it were particularly painful.
I tried to push it through in January.
I off, I went to Argentinato climb a mountain.
Spent two weeks with no phone signal.
Having lots of time to think aboutwhat I wanted and why was I selling.
And the reality was it was cash inhand today instead of jam tomorrow.
It would've been nice, but I don't work.
(29:48):
I have no stress.
I have no grief.
And I was you know what?
I don't need to sell.
I came back quite belligerent and toldthem they had 24 hours to put up a shut
up, which didn't go down particularlywell, although it might have been
the way I delivered the message.
24 hours later, we, they,they still hadn't responded.
I don't think they liked it.
And so I pulled outta that sale andthen two weeks later did the next
acquisition, which added another2 billion pound of revenue and
(30:09):
added 3000 customers overnight.
And I think there was quite alot of internal conversations
over there and saying hold on.
How's he come back and done anotheracquisition in two, two and a half weeks?
There's always the, I thinkthe be the best time to sell
is when you don't need to.
If someone wants to come and offerme another pot of cash tomorrow, I'd
happily rekick off a sales process.
But equally, I've got agreat management team.
(30:31):
I can strip cash out every monthforever and not really stress about it.
So I'm not looking to sell anytime soon.
I know the multiples, Iknow the trade buyers.
I know where we are.
I'll always keep an eye on it, butwhen you're not operational and you're
not working and there's no stress,is that not the ideal world that
every entrepreneur wants to get to?
It's just the reality thatnot many actually get there.
And so I'll just continue as isfor now and if the, if it changes.
(30:56):
Yeah, I'm similar to Tim and Harry.
I just probably private equity in twoyears, ideally two to three years.
I just need to work on group structureand just get more acquisitions.
. I want you to give a huge roundof applause to these guys.
,The people always to listen to are the people who've done it before you.
Okay.
Now, I'm all for peer support.
I'm all for people supporting otherpeople who haven't yet bought a business.
(31:19):
But sometimes it's the blindleading the blind, okay?
You need to be taking the advicefrom the people who've done it rather
than the people who haven't done it.
Very important.
And these are some of thepeople who have done it.
So one final round of applausefor our inner Circle group.
Thank you so much, guys.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Hi, this is Jonathan Jay, and welcome toBusiness Buying Strategies, the number one
podcast for people who want to learn howto buy a business in the most practical
way without risking any of their own cash.
Now in this week's episode, wehave something slightly different.
We have an extract from one of ourpanel discussions at our annual Marbella
(00:51):
retreat, and this discussion panel is madeup of members of my inner circle group.
So these are people who havebought at least one business.
Some of the people in the panelhave bought over 10 businesses.
And in this extract, you will hear themanswering questions from the audience
about the deals that they have done.
I hope you enjoy it.
(01:11):
So Harry a quick intro, please.
. So I've been Jonathanabout five, six years now.
And I bought some salons duringlockdown straight away to pay for
they were cash flowing businesses andthat's the reason why I bought them.
And they pay for my luxury andsupercars and kids private school
fees and they've been cash flowingfor the last four, five years now and
they just keep paying me every year.
(01:33):
And then more recently bought a coupleof businesses with Tim who's over
here and that's been pretty good.
So we've bought two at I think justunder 10 million turnover giving us 1.4
net profit six months, seven months.
Yeah.
Pretty good.
That deserves a roundof applause, I think.
(01:53):
Excellent.
Thank you very much Pastor Simon.
Yeah, good afternoon.
My name is Simon Corbert.
I have been with Jonathan forjust under three years or so.
I work in pr, my agency jargonpr I was running it for 10 years.
I got it to just under 2 millionin fees and then was looking
at doing some acquisitions.
'cause organic growth was slowand we wanted to go a lot faster.
(02:17):
In the last few years we bought five otherPR agencies and two media businesses.
So we've got a combined groupnow with just over 40 staff.
And yeah, it's it's been absolutelybrilliant for me in terms of
accelerating growth, getting to whereI wanted to get to a lot quicker.
Lovely.
Great, Simon.
Thank you very much.
Welcome Tim.
(02:38):
Hi everyone.
I'm Tim.
I've been doing this for threeyears now, three a bit years.
Joined Mastermind three years ago.
Did some businesses a while agoand then I recently joined forces
with Harry back in October.
And obviously we bought a coupleof businesses since then, so we're
looking at acquiring some more as well.
Lovely.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
. Hi, I'm John.
(02:58):
. So I, I did the original course in 2019.
I've done 17 acquisitions sincethen, grown from about a million to
9 million of revenue within telecoms.
And it, I've dabbled in other bits likehotels, golf courses and stuff as well.
. Do a lot of distressed acquisitions,mainly 'cause I'm tight.
And I'd much prefer to buy something andenjoy the chaos than do anything sensible.
(03:19):
Great.
Thank you.
John.
Welcome.
Hi, my name's Ben.
, I've been here about a year.
I had acquired a business, but by luck,not through it, it didn't go well.
It went okay, but it wasn'tthe best business to buy.
And now I acquired my first one throughJonathan's teaching in in December.
(03:40):
So I bought a business it did 8million revenue in the last financial
year that I paid 600,000 upfront withthe, of the business own cash and and
in Q1 we've done almost a deferredconsideration in profit . And I've
got six businesses in the group now.
Three of them.
I've started organically and theother three are acquisitions.
(04:04):
. Nice one, let's do some questions.
Who's got some questions?
Got a question.
Raise your hand.
Got a question for the guys, this is agreat opportunity by the way, because
something you learn from the people who'vealready done it, not from people who are
on the same level as you at that stage.
. So looking to obviously just signedup with deal makers looking to
acquire my first business, what'sthe first thing to do and the first
(04:25):
thing not to do in your experience?
The first thing to do, there'sno there's no magic source.
It's just start making the phonecalls, start sending letters, and
start having the conversations.
. 'Cause you're not gonna buy abusiness unless you start having them.
It doesn't matter what stampsyou use, what color your
letters are and all that stuff.
Actually, that's the important bit.
And I remember on my, I did mastermindthree years ago, and I remember
(04:47):
there were people buying businessesmonth six, month seven, month eight.
And there were people on the mastermindwho was still deciding whether
they were gonna send letters out.
And you can guess who were thepeople that did deals and who
were the people that didn't.
So just get stuck in, even if you don'twanna buy the business, it's just practice
with them and just run the process.
So that's what, that's probablywhat, so the first thing to do.
So the first thing todo is just get started.
(05:08):
Correct.
Yeah.
So there isn't, like you said,there isn't like a magic formula.
It is just get going.
Just get launched.
And the thing to remember is you'renot making a do or die decision.
You're making, not making adecision you have to live with
for the rest of your life.
You are, you're just getting startedand you're speaking to people with
absolutely zero obligation until yousign the sale and purchase agreement.
There's no obligation up until that point.
(05:31):
You'd be silly to put out atthat point, you, there is no
obligation till that point.
Sure.
So just get going.
And I think as well, and if you're nervousabout doing it, it's like normally to be
nervous about having the calls, right?
If it's, it's, you gotta start somewhere.
And I think the worse you are, thebetter it is because the worse you
are, the chances of that seller evertalking to you again are slim because
you've been so bad on the call, it'sthe ones where you were really close
(05:51):
and you're like, oh, I did a pretty goodjob there, but didn't quite get there.
They're more annoying than the oneswhere you were awful, if so just get
stuck and it doesn't really matter.
You never have to talkto the people again yeah.
In terms of something not todo, I would say absolutely.
Don't overthink it.
So when I started doing theletters we have a second business,
which is a suite of business tobusiness trade media, magazines.
(06:13):
And I sent out around a thousandletters and within the first week of
doing it, I had just under 40 calls.
And I learned so muchfrom all of those calls.
And I know in the materials that you'llget, there's templates and q and as and
pointers on how to structure these, but.
I learned so much from havingthe same conversation with
nearly 40 different people.
(06:34):
And so I would say, yeah, it'ssomething not to don't overthink it.
Just dive in and go for it.
As you say, it's not, you're notmaking life changing decisions here.
You're not going to and the overthinkingcreates procrastination and then you end
up doing nothing and you're no better off.
Thanks Jonathan.
My name's Ra I'm actually a colleague ofaids we're both starting out together.
On the startup journey youcan make a plan, but no plan
ever stands first contact.
(06:56):
So how much of what, when you started,was it targeted versus scatter gun?
'cause I'm hearing different approacheshere in terms of different sectors
and if you set out a plan, did itgo according to plan or did you
end up in a completely differentplace with your first transaction?
Okay, so I obviously meant I worked inthat in telecoms already, so I usually
had a traded business, so it was logicalfor me to carry on in that track.
(07:19):
Got distracted with a hotel andgolf course six months before COVID.
You can need to stick to what, if, that'sprobably the biggest lesson I've learned
from buying stupid is just 'cause thedeal's there, you don't need to do it.
Yeah.
And if you don't know, you don't know whatyou don't know, and if you dunno how to
run a hotel, then buying one just 'causeit's cheap probably isn't a good idea.
So I probably wouldn'trecommend scatter gun.
(07:40):
And you need to be laser focusedon exactly what you want.
And then by doing that, when youlook at 20 different businesses
in the same sector, you start tosee nuances in their accounts.
You start to see nuances in the waythey work, and then you'll realize what
is a good one versus what's a bad one.
Sure.
Whereas if it's just random, then there'sno lessons to be learned from that.
Yeah.
Thanks.
(08:00):
I'm gonna probably say somethingcompletely opposite to John.
So when we did our, we, like Isaid, we started working together
in October and we sent out a load ofletters in like a targeted sector.
And the one that we did the deal on wasactually, I dunno how it ended up in that
kind of bracket with the market data.
And that's the one we did the dealon and then we just started doing
targeted letters in that sector.
(08:23):
We didn't know the sectorbut we knew there was quite a
strong management team Yeah.
In place within the company, whichmeant we could go in, which I know
it's different, but that's how weended up so it's completely random.
Yeah.
Thanks.
Yeah, for me, focus is super important.
So of the five PR agencies I've boughtfour were B2B Tech and that's what we
do all B2B Tech, we got 120 clients,biggest clients, meta three offices.
(08:47):
And the of the five I've done, theone that went wrong was the third one
and that wasn't quite in our space.
They did PR for industrial manufacturing.
Yeah.
Companies.
So companies that would make likeconveyor belts or pickers and packers.
And we thought, it's a gooddeal, prs, pr, we can do this.
And we learned the hard waythat yeah, it's not the case.
(09:07):
It's a very specific marketknowledge to do PR in that sector.
For me it's all about focus, I would say.
Thanks, appreciate your thoughts.
Yeah, great questionand fantastic answers.
My question is that I'm looking tobuy business, but they're not as
big as like having a team in placealready, like management team.
How do you select what you're looking for?
(09:29):
Thank you.
I think Jonathan saidthis earlier as well.
Don't, unless you want to,you're not buying a job.
So I would try and get at leastsome sort of management in place.
So you've gotta, if you look atthe business and just say if I take
you out, what's it gonna look like?
If you go on holiday for threeweeks or a month or a year?
Is that still gonna be around?
And if it's not, then it'sprobably not the one you wanna go
for, but it's a personal thing.
If you want to actually be involvedwith that's great, but that's
(09:51):
not we, what we are all here for.
But I would look to have someone thatyou don't wanna build the team out.
It's gonna be very difficult.
It'll take time.
Yeah.
I would say if the business doesn'thave an existing management team or
a good number two, that's maybe notquite the right business for you.
And you should maybe try andthink a tiny bit bigger because
we get a lot of that in pr.
There's a lot of people that run themas lifestyle businesses where they take
(10:15):
a bit of money, but they're doing allthe real work and they want to leave.
And it's not what I'd call abusiness, it's just a, it's
just a kind of a lifestyle.
So I'd, yeah, I'd say besuper careful at that.
Otherwise you could be buying a job.
I'm probably gonna disagree with everyone.
So I, I had a trading business like,some of you here and I operated in that.
Until probably 18 months, two years ago.
And it took 15 acquisitions and10 years of growth to, to get to
(10:38):
a point where I could step away.
I am fortunate to be in a sectorwhere we can take small businesses
without management teams andjust fold it into what we're
doing and carry on and go again.
So it doesn't, I don't haveto buy management of what I'm
buying is customer contracts.
And if you're in that sort ofworld, if you've got something that
you can fold into it, who cares?
As long as it's accretive andit adds to what you're doing.
(10:59):
But yeah, it took me 10 years beforeI got out of operating the day to day.
(11:24):
So after acquisition, what arethe decisions you have taken that
turn out to be very good one?
. And the one which you should recommendus not to do in very early stages.
I'll go first because I've got the mic.
Because most of what I do is distressed.
There's a massive lack ofdue diligence possible.
(11:44):
So where most people on this panelwill take three or four months to
do a deal, I will do a deal in twoor three days, maybe a week maximum.
And so I end up doing a lot of theDD post acquisition not before.
And it's quite invasiveand that's where I excel.
I like the chaos of it all but Iwouldn't necessarily recommend it.
But I really will get under theskirt of a business in the first
(12:05):
few days looking for where bodiesare buried, which is generally you'd
recommend doing beforehand, but Ijust don't have the time to do that.
I'd probably say we spoke aboutthis yesterday, but the biggest
thing is working capital and cash oncashflow when you're doing the deal.
'cause there's always thatnegotiation on how much money's
left in the bank or whatever.
And I've made mistakes in the pastwhere there hasn't been enough.
(12:28):
And that was probably the biggest thing.
I'm like, do not understate how much cashyou're going to need, if that makes sense.
So yeah, working capital is probably thebiggest mistake I've made in the past.
So for me, PR is a people business.
All my assets walk in the doorat nine and go home at half five.
And I'd say the biggest thing for meis explaining to the staff and the
(12:48):
management team you are requiringwhat the new world will look like.
Because things will inevitably , bedifferent whether it's processes,
procedures, offices, anything like that.
So I'd, I, yeah, I'd be super focusedon that and especially to the new
owner if they are staying withyou for a period of time, like all
(13:08):
of the owners have been with me.
Of the PR agencies I'veacquired, we've typically done
a two or three year handover.
'cause I've wanted their knowledgeand contacts and expertise.
They are for the first time goingto have a boss and that's me.
And it's very likely they've, they'verun their own agency for 20 years.
They've forgotten whatit's like to have a boss.
(13:28):
So just explaining how I would like thingsto be done and what they will have to do
is would definitely be one of my top tips.
Yeah, I think just following on from Simonand the management team and empowering
them and that will filter down to the,to the troops underneath as it were.
So if I've just actually set my MDon a, on another not acquisition
course, on a management training buildhow to, like a leadership course.
(13:51):
And that for him is gonna be mind blowing.
So for him to be empowered with thatand he'll come back who will fired and
ready to go, that will then filter down.
So that's kinda my approach at the moment.
. . So I'm in my second month of sending outletters and it's slowly trickling in.
How do I increase that?
. So when did the letters land?
(14:11):
They land on a Tuesday of a week.
Last week.
Yes, so this is my secondmonth, so yes, Tuesday.
The LA last week I think.
Yes.
So from what I've found, the usually themore serious conversation, probably happy.
I probably get different answers'cause that's different for everyone.
The ones in the first week arenormally the ones that have either
tried to sell before or with abroker and they're desperate.
The ones that come two,three week post the letters
(14:34):
landing, the more serious ones.
You can't increase deal flow.
You can't force it.
But having, it's a difficult onebecause you'll do the mail out and
it's I think Jonathan gave the exampleyears ago, well over the years of the
Domino's leaflet through the door, youget 'em every week and you might not
want it that day, but there'll be a daythat you actually want that Domino's.
So it's the same sort of thing.
They might not be ready to sell today, butthere could be a health or whatever reason
(14:57):
for 'em to sell months down the line.
So that means just keep onsending letters, even if it's
just sending to the same people.
Just keep on Yeah, I'd say so.
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
If you want more leads, send more letters.
I've spoken to lots of people over thepast couple of years and they're all
trying to what if I tweak this in myletter or do this or first class stamp
or second class stamp, or if it landson a Tuesday, no one really knows.
(15:22):
And actually.
I get it.
'cause it's like that monthlyexpense when you're just starting
out and it can be a lot of money.
But our most recent acquisition,we were meant to send them
out like January the fifth.
So just after the Christmas breakand for whatever reason they got
sent out and they all landed atfour o'clock on Christmas Eve.
And it was an absolute headache,but we had something like from 4,000
(15:43):
letters, we had like 80 responses.
And that was the most we've everhad, and it was by accident.
So I would just say if you've maxed inyour sector, find a parallel sector that
probably go together and just do themones as well and just keep, if you wanna
do more, if I don't get disheartened ifyou don't get a response straight away.
Two of the deals that I've done thatweren't distressed came from letters, but
(16:05):
they comm star, I sent him a letter inthree years later, he picked the phone up.
I, and that's not a kind of a one off.
There is countless examples of that in,in the whole kind of deal makers kind
of group where, just 'cause they'vehad a letter today, they might stick
it on a filing cabinet or stick itin their desk and then they'll have a
shit week or they'll have a stressfulperiod or they just wanna get out at
(16:26):
that point and they'll go and find it.
So it is about writing topeople regularly like it.
And telecoms with telecoms, there is4,000 telecoms companies in the uk.
I can't make any more that is, and halfof them, of course, you've got the likes
of bt, which I'm never gonna go require.
So you have to just keepbattering it on and keep going.
But just because they don't ringyou today, as I said that one was
(16:48):
three years in the making and thenthe deal was done in four weeks.
So it it happens eventually.
You just have to wait really.
Hi guys.
Thank you for your time.
Over the last two to four years,what have you learned about yourself?
How has your characterand mindset shifted?
Oh, that's a good question.
What have you learned aboutyourself and how has your
(17:08):
character and mindset shifted?
I'm the newest to the group,so I've learned loads.
I've, a year ago I knew verylittle about acquisitions.
Now I can go into a room and seem likeI kinda know what I'm talking about.
some People in the room will know.
I've gone through probablyquite a dramatic transformation
over the last two years.
So as I stepped away from the businessat 26 stone and could barely walk up
(17:31):
the stairs without being really tiredI've gone on a massive mindset, health.
Transformation of lost12 stone in that time.
I've climbed two of the seven summitswith a third one booked in for November.
I've done the London Marathon andlife is just totally different.
And so yeah, there's a positivity change,there's a self-belief, and I always knew
where my burnout level was for work.
(17:53):
I don't know where it is froma personal level yet, and I'm
desperately trying to find it.
Hence why I keep tryingto climb stupid mountains.
But I just, I'm trying to find outwhere my limit is so that I can operate
just below it at peak performance andmaintain that for as long as possible.
It's gonna be tough to follow that one.
Yeah, I think I've always beenquite, quite an optimistic person.
(18:14):
And one of the things, and I rememberstarting mastermind a while ago, and I was
always thinking, when you do it, you'rehaving dozens of calls every week and
everyone's telling you to get lost becauseyour price is too high or this and that.
And do you know what I mean?
I'm sure you've all had allthese calls, you're just thinking
it's not gonna go anywhere.
And then I've always thought ifthere's someone else doing it, so
there's no reason why I can't do itif I just copy what they're doing.
(18:37):
And I was talking to Jonathan aboutthis and he's helping me with this.
It's like now that we've starteddoing sort of seven figure profit
deals, I was, we are looking at stepchange, trying to do a step change and
trying to move into the realms of 40,50, 60 million turnover businesses.
'cause someone's doing it, sothere's no reason why I can't do it.
(18:57):
So it's that belief that actuallyyou can push on, like if you're
sat there thinking, I can'tdo it with someone else's, so
there's no reason why you can't.
And that's probably one of thebiggest things that I've developed
over the past couple of years.
And quite a high level of stresstolerance I think as well.. I'd say
it changes who you are as a person.
And I've, for me, I've gone fromjust being a PR guy that had always
worked in PR and run PR agencies to,now you're a, you're a deal maker.
(19:21):
You're always looking at businesses.
And my, just to say my sort ofinspiration for starting this
actually came from Steven Bartlet.
I was up at an event that he did aboutsix years or so ago and when his first
book came out and I paid for a meetand greet with him and I made sure
I was the first one there in line.
And he actually turned upabout 20 minutes early.
(19:41):
So instead of the sort of obligatorytwo minutes and a photo, I got about 20
minutes with him and I was asking him howhe grew social chain to such a height.
And he said, I've got oneword for you acquisitions.
He said, I got it to, Ithink about 6 million a year.
He got it to, and hewanted to go a lot faster.
And he said he just bought in a teamto learn about acquisitions and he
(20:04):
wanted to become the best person in theworld at buying social media agencies.
And that was how he was able to scalevery quickly through acquisitions.
And his advice to me was, you knowwhat prs it's, the big contracts come
up once every three years and organicgrowth slow and all the rest of it.
You need to make yourself thebest person in the world at
(20:25):
buying B2B Tech, PR agencies.
And once you understand how to do that,you can grow and scale a lot faster.
So that's what I've done.
But to answer your question, I wouldsay, yeah it's totally transformational
of how you are and how you seeyourself and also how other people
see you as well, which is always nice.
. So 2010 I started a fashionbusiness, women's clothing design,
(20:48):
manufacturing, 17 years did that.
, Started and built three otherbrands within that as well.
So I thought I kneweverything about business.
We won fashion industry awards as well.
Since being on the program,it's a whole new world.
I didn't even know thiswhole world existed.
If I knew this, it's cliche.
If I knew this 15 years ago,then who knows where we'd be.
But yeah, it's great group.
It's very supportive.
As you probably noticedthe last couple of days.
(21:09):
Everyone's willing to share experiencesand fast track you guys to, I won't
say where we are, be arrogant, towhere we are, as in doing deals,
which is where you wanna be, right?
You wanna be in the inner circle,yeah, it was, when we started,
there was no inner circle was there.
I don't think Jonathan, there wasn't.
No.
So we've, with Jonathan last three years.
Yeah.
So with Jonathan's new programs, itis now launched again, it's just gonna
fast track everything for you guys.
So being part of that and being partof the community, I think . And Brian,
(21:32):
Tracy used to say that, becoming amillionaire is not about the money.
It's about the person you become onthe journey to become a millionaire.
And buying a business isn't justabout buying a business, it's
about the person you become in theprocess of buying the business.
And it is transformational because you'rewonder why you didn't do it years ago.
And you realize that now you cando this, you can do anything.
If you can buy a business with amillion of revenue, why can't you buy
(21:53):
a business with a million of profit?
If you buy a business with amillion of profit, why don't you buy
business with 10 million of profit?
If someone else is doingit, you can do it too.
And that's the motivation thatmakes you go bigger and bigger.
And of course, it's gonnabe different for everyone.
But the sky's the limit.
And the only thing to limit youis always gonna be yourself.
. A couple of you, I think John, you andSimon have had failures just interested.
(22:16):
Do you sell those companies onor just close them down, and can
you make a profit out of that?
It's a really tough one.
So we've, I've liquidated three companies.
One was the hotel and golf course thatthere was, there's a big story behind
it, but the reality is the paperworksays I lost a lot of money, but my cash
balance and the bank didn't change.
(22:37):
One, we lost 50 grand on it.
I bought it on the Friday, and weliquidated it on the Thursday because it
wasn't what we were told, it was in thetwo or three days a d deal that we had.
So we effectively lost 50 grand,but we'll probably learn more outta
that experience than any other deal.
And then we've just closedclosed our trampoline park,
which I bought for a pound.
(22:57):
Last year.
So you can't lose much if you pay apound for something to start with.
Yeah, look, liquidating a businessis never particularly easy.
It's stressful, it's shit, andit's hard work sometimes, but you
just have to have the right peoplearound just to keep you focused.
I'm lucky to now have the rightcontacts and the right insolvency
practitioners to make sure I'm protected.
(23:17):
And if you're not doing anythingnaughty business failure, it is just
one of those things, it happens.
It doesn't affect your credit,it doesn't affect your life.
I'm still sleep fine at night.
It just is what it is.
And if, when you're buying as manyas you are, and especially when I'm
buying sort effectively insolventbusinesses anyway, there's always that
inherent risk that I can't sort 'em out.
I'm not a magician.
(23:38):
I always take the viewof I didn't cause it.
So if it goes back under again, so be it.
As long as you can explainwhy it's failed to a bank or a
lender, it'll never hold you back.
You just have to tick a box on everyinsurance application you ever make to
say that you've been a director in thelast three years of a failed business.
But does it make my carinsurance any more expensive?
Who knows?
But apart from that it just is what it is.
(23:59):
, Try and take the emotion out of it.
And that actually works forthe buying side as well.
If you get emotionally tied to a deal,you'll inherently always do a bad deal.
So if you can take the emotionout of it, across the whole thing,
then it just becomes a transaction.
And the more you do, the morekind of immune you get to it.
It is just what it is.
So yeah, just try and take the emotionout of it and focus on the next
(24:22):
deal and focus on cracking on again.
Yeah, mine was slightly different.
The PR agency we bought was doing justunder 700 grand a year in revenue.
And the we'd closed that brand,moved all the contracts and staff
over to jargon pr, and unfortunatelythe lady we bought it from just.
Didn't want to cooperate andplay ball with how we did things.
(24:43):
And it became very difficult.
And within a year she wasvery difficult to work with.
So we had to have the conversation withher about she needed to change, which she
did not like at all, and decided to go.
So from then we knew that about there,about seven or eight of her staff that
had come over, they would probably go,'cause they were quite loyal to her.
We knew that if they went, probablythe clients would go as well.
(25:05):
So we, for us it was just a caseof we knew that sort of nearly 700
grand was gonna walk out the door,but then the costs decreased as well.
But I've probably learned more fromthat one that failed than the ones
that have succeeded to be honest.
But it, I agree.
It doesn't put me off doing it.
And if you are doing this stuffand never, if you wanna make an
omelet, you've gotta break eggs.
And inevitably if you are gonnakeep doing deals and growing, then
(25:28):
something's gonna go wrong at some point.
But for me, there's a good, there'sa good network around to talk to
for advice and insight and whatever.
Problem or issue I've had, someone hasalways been there and done it before.
And presumably you had the the rightcorporate structure as prescribed Yes.
To protect everything else.
Anyway, yeah, everything else was fine.
We had, we have no just tell everyonewhat you're telling me earlier, while
(25:50):
you've got the mic about the how touse PR as you are as a resident PR
expert PR to generate deal flows.
I think this would be usefulfor you all to know this.
This is a really good tactic.
Yeah.
So PR could be used as a really goodstrategic tool to help with deal flow
and also when potential sellers aredoing their due diligence on you.
(26:11):
So as well as financial and legaldue diligence, they'll Google
you put your name into LinkedIn.
So one thing we do whatever sectoryou are buying in, I know some of you
are domiciliary, care and security andaccounting, they will all have magazines
for their sector, trade media, max.
And in PR it's calledPR Week is the magazine.
Everyone in PR reads, the journaliststhat work for those magazines will
(26:36):
be always looking for content.
And when I say content, news.
And the way you present news tojournalists is through a press release.
And if you do that in a professional wayin the way they're used to receiving it,
they will start writing about you andyour businesses and what you're doing now.
The secret of writing pressreleases is all about the messaging.
(26:58):
So what you're putting in it, because whatthe journalists are reading will dictate
the headlines that they write about you.
So for example, if you are looking tobuy another three businesses in the
next 12 months, or if you're lookingfor a specific business between one
or 2 billion turnover, there's waysof putting all this content in a press
release that a Journ journalist will use.
(27:19):
So what we were talking about earlierwas after you've done your first
deal, do a press release, send itto the trade media in your magazine,
and they will write about it.
And then everyone else in that industrywill see it and they'll be looking at it,
reading, going, oh, this person's lookingto buy other businesses in this sector.
I might wanna sell mine.
(27:40):
So we use that to help withdeal flow, future deal flow.
And as I say, it's great forthe due diligence part as well.
So when you've, when you'redoing your next deal and someone
Googles you to say who's this guy?
They'll see all these nice headlinesabout you in different media, we've
got one final question and I've justsaid what's the question about just
to make sure it's a suitable finalquestion and it's a very suitable final
(28:01):
question because it's about exiting.
Okay, so over to you.
Yeah.
Do you know who you might wantto sell to and what multiples,
or is it a bit too early days?
I guess I'll start as I've got the mic.
Yeah.
For me, so it would be one of sortof mid-market PR agencies, someone
that's between 20 to 40 million a year.
Probably someone that's, they might bestrong in healthcare or consumer, but
(28:24):
they might not have a tech division.
That's very much theway the industry works.
And there's a long list of examples inthe industry of when agencies have got
through sort of big milestones, likefive or 10 million and then they've
been bought by one of the big boys.
So for me it's a very well trodden path.
Sure.
Yeah, . For companies in our sector thatare doing three, four, 5 million ebitda,
(28:45):
you're probably looking at 10 to 12 times.
Seems to be, if they're like goodquality businesses with management,
that seems to be where they're acting.
And then anything it liketapers off as you go down.
. Ah, so I've had two failedsales in three years.
The first one was a PLCthat were due to bias.
And then they went out to marketjust as Liz Trust decided to
(29:06):
completely screw up the market,so they couldn't raise the money.
Three weeks later I took the PLC privatevia administration process instead.
So we bought them insteadof them buying us.
And the original project was ProjectNorth and the acquisition project
was then Project South, which wethought was a bit funny internally.
We then had a second salethat was supposed to complete
in December last year.
It dragged on the finance ddthe company that was doing
(29:28):
it were particularly painful.
I tried to push it through in January.
I off, I went to Argentinato climb a mountain.
Spent two weeks with no phone signal.
Having lots of time to think aboutwhat I wanted and why was I selling.
And the reality was it was cash inhand today instead of jam tomorrow.
It would've been nice, but I don't work.
(29:48):
I have no stress.
I have no grief.
And I was you know what?
I don't need to sell.
I came back quite belligerent and toldthem they had 24 hours to put up a shut
up, which didn't go down particularlywell, although it might have been
the way I delivered the message.
24 hours later, we, they,they still hadn't responded.
I don't think they liked it.
And so I pulled outta that sale andthen two weeks later did the next
acquisition, which added another2 billion pound of revenue and
(30:09):
added 3000 customers overnight.
And I think there was quite alot of internal conversations
over there and saying hold on.
How's he come back and done anotheracquisition in two, two and a half weeks?
There's always the, I thinkthe be the best time to sell
is when you don't need to.
If someone wants to come and offerme another pot of cash tomorrow, I'd
happily rekick off a sales process.
But equally, I've got agreat management team.
(30:31):
I can strip cash out every monthforever and not really stress about it.
So I'm not looking to sell anytime soon.
I know the multiples, Iknow the trade buyers.
I know where we are.
I'll always keep an eye on it, butwhen you're not operational and you're
not working and there's no stress,is that not the ideal world that
every entrepreneur wants to get to?
It's just the reality thatnot many actually get there.
And so I'll just continue as isfor now and if the, if it changes.
(30:56):
Yeah, I'm similar to Tim and Harry.
I just probably private equity in twoyears, ideally two to three years.
I just need to work on group structureand just get more acquisitions.
. I want you to give a huge roundof applause to these guys.
,The people always to listen to are the people who've done it before you.
Okay.
Now, I'm all for peer support.
I'm all for people supporting otherpeople who haven't yet bought a business.
(31:19):
But sometimes it's the blindleading the blind, okay?
You need to be taking the advicefrom the people who've done it rather
than the people who haven't done it.
Very important.
And these are some of thepeople who have done it.
So one final round of applausefor our inner Circle group.
Thank you so much, guys.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
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