July 31, 2025 • 29 mins
In this week’s episode of Business Buying Strategies, Jonathan shares valuable insights from Inner Circle members who have successfully purchased businesses. The episode considers the transformative power of a single acquisition, featuring examples such as Nick's printing business expansion and Jas's recent ventures.
Jonathan stresses the importance of validating the business model to ensure sustainable growth. Lessons include the importance of empowering employees, maintaining quality management, and the strategic considerations of business consolidation and rebranding. It’s an episode for aspiring business buyers looking to fast-track their success while minimising risks.
Key moments
01:05 Inner Circle Success Stories
01:44 The Power of One Acquisition
03:35 Jas's Transformative Acquisition Journey
06:25 Validating the Business Model
15:57 The Importance of Training and Empowering Employees
20:26 Effective Day-to-Day Management
25:57 Consolidation vs. Independence in Acquisitions
** Looking for a great acquisition lawyer in the UK? Use mine! **
If you are looking for a lawyer in the UK to help you get the deal over the line, then use my own lawyer, John Andrews. You can phone his office at (0345) 2412494 or email him at johnandrews.deallawyer@jmw.co.uk.
Ready to get started?
Here’s how you can start your business buying journey…
Download our free Business Buying Toolkit
https://dealmakers.co.uk/business-buying-toolkit
Join our Business Acquisition FastTrack programme
https://www.dealmakers.co.uk/fast
Already bought a business?
if you've already bought a business, you should be part of my Inner Circle group where we discuss raising capital, integration management, and exiting. Email Maria on hello@thedealmakersacademy.com for more information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:29):
Hi, this is Jonathan Jay, and welcome toBusiness Buying Strategies, the number one
podcast for people interested in buying abusiness without risking their own cash.
Now, you might remember that in lastweek's episode, we heard from four of
our inner Circle members who sharedthe stories behind the businesses
they had acquired and offeredtheir advice for others starting
out on their acquisition journey.
(00:51):
Now this week I put a couple moreInner Circle members on the spot and
I'll be helping you to fast track yoursuccess by sharing with you some of the
things that I know work and some of thethings I know absolutely won't work.
I hope you enjoy it.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Okay, we are going to be talkingabout some of the uh, the top
(01:11):
lessons from the Inner Circle group.
And I talk about the inner circleguys and girls a lot because these
are the people who make it happen.
And to get into the inner circle, youhave to have done at least one deal that's
not owning a business, that's not sellinga business, that's buying a business.
And VIP clients in the room that youknow what you need to do as well.
So, let me share with you some ofthe things that I know work, some
(01:34):
of the things I know don't work.
So this session is all about fasttracking your success, . Okay,
now I can tell you that.
The majority of people comeinto mastermind with the
aspiration to buy one business.
And I can tell you right nowthat one deal, one business, one
(01:55):
acquisition can change your life.
it can double your income.
It can take your business fromwhere it is now to reach your
business goals far faster.
A great example of someonewho had a business already
and bought another business.
Someone called Nick.
And Nick bought a, has a printing company,large format printing company, and he
(02:19):
bought a balloon printing business.
And you might think, what does aballoon printing business have to
do with large format exhibitiondisplays and things like that?
Well, what happened is when hebought the balloon printing business,
they were getting about 10 to 15orders a day through the internet.
(02:40):
And the sales team on the large formatprinting business would phone up each of
those sales and say, we've got your order.
We've received the logo file.
Okay, can I ask what's the occasion?
And they would say, well,therefore an exhibition or there
for this, or there for that.
(03:00):
And the sales team would then look forthe other opportunities to upgrade from.
We're just buying some balloonsfor a few hundred pounds to, we're
buying exhibition stands and all thedisplays and all the graphics and all
the screens and everything that youneed, which is like 15,000 pounds.
So it was an upsell opportunity.
So if you own a business already,then maybe you'll be looking for the
(03:23):
upsell opportunity in an acquisition.
So one acquisition can transformyour business and one acquisition
if you're currently in employment,can transform your income.
And I wasn't intending to do this,but I was speaking to jazz last night.
Where's jazz?
Where are you?
. . Just share what you said to me aboutthe one acquisition you completed on a
few weeks ago, a couple of months ago,whenever it was and how that's impacted.
(03:46):
'cause you also have apaid, employed position, so.
. Yeah.
. So my first deal completedon 4th of April, yeah.
But , yeah, one deal can change your life.
'cause I think for me I mean, I have agood job, good salary, but you I never
wanna be a, I don't wanna be a director.
I have two kids and I'm 40 now, so I'vegot to the point where I just wanna
(04:09):
have time off be free, go on holidays.
But I like earning income, so, yeah,. The first business I've brought is,
it's 200 k, roughly just under twoebitda, so it's fairly small, but it's
an outstanding CQC outstanding rated.
It's got really good netprofit margin for the business.
So yeah, so that's great.
(04:29):
I mean, that's like myincome secured forever.
Even if I just stay on that one I'veowned it , since the 4th of April,
so I'd owned it for about four weekswhen I brought it, and then got the
opportunity to buy a second one.
And actually my seller, who I broughtthe first business from, is giving
me the money for the second one.
So now I'm at the end of June,hopefully have a business that's got
(04:51):
400 ebitda and 1.9 million revenue.
Well done.
Very good.
But the point I was making reallyis that the income from the business
replaces your income from the jobif you so wish to make that switch.
Oh, massive.
Massively.
And I'm here and it's a nice feeling.
(05:12):
I think the first day I brought thebusiness was the best feeling was to
know, I mean, I'll have, I've got 20staff now won the second acquisition.
I'll have 60 staff.
But to have a feeling when you're sat inthe garden or you're playing with your
kids and to know that you are makingmoney, that's like, it's truly passive.
And I think that's the best feeling.
That's amazing.
And before I ask you to sit backdown and thank you for doing this
(05:34):
just you came to your first inner circlemeeting two weeks ago, three weeks ago.
Just tell everyone what that waslike what sort of happened in
that meeting and how you felt?
It's great to be with people thathave businesses understand the
issues that you are dealing with.
And I think because it, forme, it's my first acquisition.
So there's some thingsI need to think about.
(05:54):
Like I need contacts for HRconsultants, that sort of thing.
Help with dealing with minimumwage staff and stuff like that.
But we can all share.
So I think Josh was there andhe's got nurseries and you're
dealing with similar sort of staff.
So you, you sort of each and it's akind of decent group of people, right?
Yeah, no, it's really good.
I actually, yeah, I actually celebrated.
(06:15):
Being able to get in inner circle ormore than I celebrated getting my deal.
Brilliant.
Thank jazz.
Thank you so much.
That absolutely brilliant.
Let's give her a roundof applause, shall we?
Thank you.
Alright, brilliant.
Okay, so which beautifullysegues into point number one,
which is validating the model.
So what jazz has done there verysmartly, has validated the model.
(06:39):
So acquisition number one is allabout checking that your assumptions
are correct, that you can acquirethis business, you can do it.
We want you to do it in a way thatdoesn't risk any of your own capital.
If you wish to risk yourcapital, it's entirely up to you.
We suggest that you don't,but yep, you're grownups.
You can make your own decision, butwe suggest that you don't do that.
(06:59):
You don't need to do that.
You don't need to risk, you don't needto do it with any risk whatsoever.
And that's exactly what has happened here.
And it's validating several things.
It's validating that you can do it.
And that's that self belief thatwhen you've done it once you realize
that, goodness me, why was I, whywas I dilly dallying over this?
And I spent a lot of time helpingpeople overcome procrastination.
(07:21):
And I found that one of the fastest waysto help people overcome procrastination
is to give people a deadline and say,come on, let's get it done by this date.
And when people have a focus ofa deadline and a, I don't want to
let myself down, let anyone elsedown they make sure it happens and
they get focused and they do it.
So when you're validating the model,you're validating it for yourself, but
(07:41):
also you're validating the business case.
And the business case is youcan buy a business in this case
roughly 200,000 pounds of pre-taxprofit, which I think is solid.
That's a that's nice.
That's starts to move the needle.
I mean, if you were telling me abouta business that makes 20,000 pounds
of of pre-tax profit, I would say, whyare you doing this unless you already
(08:06):
have a business that does what thatbusiness does and really you're just
scooping up the contracts, you arelosing all the overhead and that 20 turns
into 150 because you're just puttingit into your existing infrastructure
that you are already paying./
You are far better off buying a businessthat makes money before you own it,
(08:29):
because then the chances are a lot higher.
It will make money after you own it.
You'll also notice that you can'tget any finance to buy a distressed
business because it's distressedand it can't afford the finance.
No one will ever lend you right, Martin?
You can't get financed to buya business that's losing money.
So focus on businessesthat make money, okay?
(08:51):
Very important.
I can see some of you're taking notes.
I've got lots of notes.
In fact, some of you if you're not takingnotes, I would suggest that you jot
things down as we go along because it'sreally easy to forget this by the time
you get back into the office on Tuesday.
So, validating the model is all aboutchecking the assumption that when
you buy this business, you can dowhat you say you are going to do.
(09:12):
I'll give you an example.
And this is someone I know not partof Mastermind, but someone I know.
And I just saw this onLinkedIn last night.
So this is like one of those, I justsaw it and I'm telling you about it.
So a fair number of years ago,there was someone on Dragon's
Den that you might remember.
In fact, we should have askedRichard about this yesterday.
He had something called the I Teddy, andit was a teddy bear with an iPad in its
(09:38):
stomach, which was a little bit strange,and I don't think it went down that
well because, we're trying to discouragescreen time with children, not encourage
it by putting it in their teddy bear.
Okay.
His name was his name is Imran.
Hakeem.
Okay.
But he wasn't to be discouraged because hedecided to go down a completely different
(10:00):
path and buy independent opticians.
Independent opticians.
And this was the propositionto the independent opticians.
He said, look, oh, actually we havesome opticians in the room, right?
Where are you guys?
Yeah, over here.
Yeah.
So do you know who I'm talking?
You know who I'm aboutto talk about, don't you?
Yeah, of course.
Is he kind of like wellknown in the sector?
(10:21):
I guess he must be.
Yeah.
So, the proposition was this, youdon't like marketing, you don't like
the back office, you don't like theadmin, you don't like the hr, you don't
like hiring and firing and employingand all you don't like, you just want
to do your job that you trained for.
You want to be an optometristand that's what you wanna do.
That's his, I dunno whetheryou've ever been pitched by them
but that's the pitch, right?
(10:42):
And he said, I will do all of thosethings for 50% of the business
and you for 50% of the businesswill carry on doing what you do.
And together we're gonna bestronger because at the moment,
your business valuation is zero.
But if we collaborate and there's otheropticians in the group, then we're
gonna have a future higher value thanif you were just doing this by yourself.
(11:02):
Because right now, quite frankly,you're sitting on a job, you're
not sitting on a business.
Does that make sense to everyone?
So he went out and he didthis, and he did it 70 times.
He's motivated 70 times.
And then he went and gotsome minority investment.
I had a conversation with him about this.
And I'll give you just some generalnumbers without being too specific.
(11:23):
But let's say there was a 10 millionplus payout to him and his family,
the shareholders but then there wasa similar amount put in as growth
capital by this investment company.
They then turbocharged the businessand after, and that was five years ago.
And yesterday it was sold again..And at that point of sale yesterday,
(11:45):
there were 500 opticians practicesin the group in five years.
Alright?
Now I can tell you because I know hedidn't do a single thing different
to anything that I teach you.
(12:08):
Not one single thing.
(12:29):
/ So validating the model is important because once you validated the model,
once, you could do it 500 times.
. John's gonna be in our innercircle panel later, by the way.
And he's validated his model withtelecoms and done it 17 times.
Okay?
Harry and Tim, you've validated the model.
(12:50):
You've done it twice.
You're ready for number three andnumber four you validate the model.
You do it again.
Rob, with marine type businessesvalidated, the model went from 3 million
to 30 million euros of revenue in the fiveyears that you've been part of the group.
And by the way, can I just say that Ihave people I. In my, particularly in
the Inner Circle group, who have investedover 50,000 pounds individually with me.
(13:17):
Interestingly, they are the mostsuccessful people in the deal makers
community because they don't stop.
They just keep on goingand keep on coming.
Where's Perry?
Hi.
Hi Perry.
. As I tell Scotsman you spoke aboutreturn on investment yesterday.
I don't put a for a footforward that unless I'm gonna
(13:38):
make a return on investment.
That's probably with every of abusiness conversation I have as well.
It's can not calculated, but it'sall well planned out and structured
when I'm in a business environment.
And this is your third yearin an in the inner circle?
Yeah.
This is my third year in the Inner Circle.
I've been involved with themergers and acquisitions since
1995 internationally and uk.
(14:01):
So I've got quite a lot of experience,but I came to a position in my
career that it was very difficultto speak with people that had the
same what could I say, go-gettingattitude and that's what I found it.
Inner circle.
Also, if I had any problems, I can textthe guys, WhatsApp them, give them a call.
And what have your numbersbeen the last few years?
(14:23):
Like last few years, I broughtthe company up to 14 million
and I've got 15% net profit.
I'm pro 15, 15%.
Oh, 15, I was gonna say.
Yeah.
No, 15, 15%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Didn't know that one.
And that's a, that's in theconstruction and property.
So that's 15% in construction is high.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very high.
(14:43):
I'm in the process of looking foranother, probably six companies.
I want I'm running two groups of companiesjust now, the construction group.
I'm taking up to 10 companiesbefore I'll be putting up for sale.
So I work every single day.
I'm a little bit differentfrom other people.
I love what I do and it's notwork, it's just that's my life.
Yeah.
Well, actually, when you enjoywhat you do, it isn't work, is it?
(15:04):
It's something that you want to do?
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Thank, sorry.
No, I'll let you finish.
Yeah, so the inner circle has gave melike the support and backing that I
needed and especially Jonathan last year.
So I was seriously, I last year and no, Idon't think anyone in this room, not even
in their circle would know, but Jonathansupported me throughout the whole process.
(15:24):
So I'd like to thank Jonathan for that.
Oh, okay.
Alright.
So I wasn't expecting that, but, okay.
Thank you.
Thanks, Terry.
. So, so validating the model, onceyou've got it right, you can just
replicate it again and again.
So let's get the first deal, right,because it's really important.
If you get the first deal wrong,it might knock you back and you
(15:46):
might never get to deal number two.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
You've gotta get the first one, right?
And success breeds success.
Now, here is a very important pointwith any business that you buy.
The people are essential, andtraining is the secret weapon.
So the biggest asset in your businessare the people, but the biggest
(16:09):
liability can also be the people as well.
They can work with you andthey can work against you.
If you get them to work with you,if you empower them to help you
get where you want to go, youcan just let them run with it.
I'll give you a great example.
So Jason is not here today againin a circle, of course, but Jason
(16:31):
he came on Mastermind in about 2018and he disappeared for a couple of
years, didn't hear anything from him,and then he appeared again and he
said, I've just done my first deal.
And I thought, well, I'm glad because Ithought that life had just got in the way.
He'd gone down a different path.
Something had distracted him.
And in fact, actually he should be here.
'cause I just realizedhe lives in Marbella.
(16:51):
He lives down the road, buthe's he should really be here.
And he he bought his first business,which was a a steel fabrication
business in the northeast of England.
19 million of revenue, justover 1 million of profit.
18 months later it was 36 millionof revenue, which is kind of near,
well, like, kind of double, right?
And I said, how did you do it?
And he said, I empowered the people.
(17:11):
All I did, I was asked them,I asked them what what we
could do to grow the business.
And you know what they said?
Answer the phone.
Yeah.
Because you see the exiting ownerretirement age didn't really
want more customers because morecustomers, more staff, more hassles.
I've got enough money, don'tneed any more effort, effort in
(17:32):
my life and stress in my life.
So they answered the phone, they quoted,they did better quality work, got the
quotes right, cut out the work thatdidn't really make much margin and grew.
And then he did a second acquisitiongot him up to 50 million of revenue,
which allowed him, because he hadnumber one, by the way, on our
list, was what validate the model.
He'd validated the model, heproved that he could do it.
(17:54):
He could raise 25 million as a warchest for the next acquisition.
Now, if you had 25 million inthe bank, do you think that would
kind of move you forward faster?
Well, yes, but no one's gonna give youthat until you validated the model.
So he validated the model, but partof validating the model was making
sure that training of the people andthe people, empowering the people
(18:15):
got him where he wanted to go.
So all of these things fittogether a little bit, like
pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
Separately, they may not make much sensewhen you start to fit them together.
They lock in and you see the big picture.
Now, the training is one of thosethings that there was a saying.
Anyone remember Peter Thompson,Nightingale Conan, Peter Thompson.
(18:38):
Yeah.
The great yeah.
Great.
Peter Thompson was likeoh, he must be 80 plus now.
And Peter and I were very good friendsyears and years ago where we did
some stuff together and he was, ifyou who's heard, A knighting year?
Conant.
Oh, a few of you.
You know what, if this was like 20years ago, it'd be every single person.
They brilliant publishers of businesscontent and personal development content.
(18:59):
And Peter had this saying maybeit wasn't his, but he was the
person I heard it from where he is.
He said bosses are concerned that ifthey invest in training their staff,
so time and money training their staff,what happens if they leave and I've just
wasted my money and I've wasted my time?
I train them up and they leave.
(19:22):
But what happens if you don'ttrain them and they stay,
which is a bigger problem, right?
So investing in the training is actuallysomething that you should be doing.
And you can't do it once.
You cannot do it once.
You can't do it onceand hope that it sticks.
It's like anything, it's like goingto the gym once it doesn't work.
(19:44):
Unfortunately, you'vegotta keep going, right?
And when you stop going,you kind of move backwards.
So the move forwards, you'vegotta keep going, you gotta
keep going, gotta keep going.
Okay?
So the training is an ongoingprocess that never stops.
And if you do that and you want to reachsignificant financial goals, that training
(20:08):
will help you get there far faster.
The alternative is you don'ttrain them, you don't have high
performers, and the business startsto go downwards and you wonder why.
And that's the reason why.
. Okay.
So number three is focus onquality day-to-day management.
(20:29):
Now, day-to-day management isdifferent to head office management.
Day-to-day management is thepeople in that branch, in
that location, in that office.
And you need quality management.
Otherwise, what's gonna happen isyou are gonna end up with a job.
Let me tell you how that worksin reality, this is how it works.
You as the entrepreneurial minded person,probably you are a good problem solver.
(20:56):
Okay?
You're a good problem solver.
Maybe you enjoy solving problems.
You're just good at solving problems.
If you've got a few years behindyou of experience you've got that
experience that you can use to addressand solve just about any problem
that the business throws at you.
So you solve a problem inthe business that you buy.
And people go, oh, that was good.
That was really good.
You solved that problem really well.
(21:17):
I've got another problem.
Could you solve this for me?
Do you see what we're doing here?
We are training people to ask usevery time they've got a problem.
So they don't go andsolve their own problems.
They just come to you because you'rejust so good at solving problems.
And you know what?
You probably enjoy it.
And it's probably good for your egoas well, that people keep coming
and asking you at the beginning.
It's good for your ego because peopleasking you to solve the problems
and you're solving the problems.
And and before you know it, there'sa queue of people out the door
(21:38):
asking you to solve a problem.
So, you know what?
It's just easier if youget a desk in the office.
You didn't intend to do this, ofcourse, because you'd listen to me.
But now you're gonna geta desk in the office.
You put a desk in the office and youdecide to go in one day a week, and you
spend one day a week solving problems.
And then someone says, it'd begreat if you come in on Mondays
for our Monday morning meeting.
So you come on Mondays for theMonday morning meeting, people
tell you that you're inspirational.
So you're gonna be there for the Mondaymorning meeting, the Thursday morning
(22:00):
problems, the Friday afternoon problems.
Before you know it,you're there every day.
And before you know it,you've got yourself a job.
It creeps up on you stepby step, bit by bit.
You don't notice it.
And this is very important.
So the way to solve the problem is tohave this quality day to day management.
And you've gotta have good people.
Now, there are severalschools of thought of this.
(22:20):
You take the peoplethat are already there.
You maybe elevate some of the peoplewho are already working in the company.
Maybe they could have a larger rolenow that the owner manager has left.
You parachute in your own people.
You bring in your own people to to do.
I've done all variations of these.
I don't think there's really aset formula for success on this.
It's more of a, dependsupon the situation.
(22:45):
There's definitely a view thatbringing someone in from the
outside can alienate everyone else.
But then I know in some sectorsthat is exactly what they do.
They bring in a manager who doesit, the sort of the company way.
So they set the standardright from the start.
So this is the thing.
You've got to get the people on side.
We know that.
(23:06):
But if you get the management on sideand the right management on side, they
will get the people on side for you.
You've gotta have everyonepointing in the same direction.
You know that if you've got a badapple, that is the distracting
person in your company.
So you can have 50 people in the companyand one person who just distracts
from every as the everyone else.
And you should be focusing onthe 49 that are doing great.
(23:28):
And the one person who's distractingbad apple, they suck all the energy
outta the room or outta the the company.
Operations, the day-to-day stuffis where the headaches are.
That is where you lay in bed at nightat 3:00 AM worrying about stuff.
(23:49):
You need to let otherpeople worry about stuff.
So you can think big picture.
What's the big picture?
It's the next acquisition.
And you can't do that if you'resucked into the day-to-day stuff.
Now here's the thing.
You need to buy quality businesses.
The quality businesses don't alwayshave to be huge businesses with mega
profits, you're looking for good, notnecessarily great, because if you can
(24:14):
turn the business from good to great.
Or in other words, let the managementteam turn the business from good to great.
Then you have an uplift invalue so you can sell it for
more than you bought it for.
So what we're doing here is we are lookingfor a quality good business that makes
money, even if the owner's removed.
And this is the problemwith the smaller businesses.
With the smaller businesses, you takethe owner out and there's nothing there.
(24:37):
Quite often the smaller businessescan appear very profitable, but
they're only profitable because theowner does the jobs of three people.
Yeah.
So like a, care homes, theycould take a care home.
So the owner might be the managerdo a little bit of cleaning
later on and is in the kitchen atlunchtime because they like cooking.
Now you try putting an advert on Indeedsaying, we're looking for a manager
(24:58):
who enjoys cooking and is happy to dothe cleaning when everyone goes home.
The staff.
So, so you're not gonna find that person.
So sometimes you've gotta employsthree people to replace one.
So what we want then is a business thatmakes money, even if the owner's removed.
So part of your diligence, and you don'tneed an accountant to do this for you,
you can do this yourself, is if I wentand hired the person to do this owner's
(25:20):
job for when they've gone, how wouldthe profits look like at that point?
How do you find out how muchyou would pay this person?
Huh?
You go on Indeed.
Total jobs, any of these job sitesand and you just find out what
people in Nottingham are paid as acare home manager, simple as that.
Oh, they're paid 35,000 pounds, right?
That's what we've gotta have someone in.
(25:41):
But let's say, 35 plus NI andall of these things, he's like
42 and a half 45, allow 45,000.
What does that do to our profits now?
Now, the big question I get askeda lot is, do you consolidate these
businesses if you're buying more thanone or do you just leave them alone?
(26:03):
And I'll give you an exampleof someone who left them alone.
So, so Sam Sam was on Mastermind2018, something like that.
And he went and bought his background bythe way, was a professional footballer.
That was his, this video'son my YouTube channel.
You have to scroll backlike, 18 months or so.
But it was on YouTube.
And Sam was a professionalfootballer turned finance director.
(26:27):
And he worked for tui, the travel people.
And TUI bought a business andthey were doing this consolidation
of the two businesses together.
And it was a nightmare.
It was an absolute nightmare.
Everything that could go wrong went wrong.
Big company buying another big company,culture clash, all of those things.
And it it traumatized him and he said, I'mnever doing another consolidation ever.
(26:51):
So he went and bought three HVACcompanies, total revenue, 17 million,
and kept them completely separate.
The only thing that was consolidatedwas the back office finance.
So with one click of a button, he cansee the group position in terms of the
balance sheet and the p and l and themanagement accounts on a day by day basis.
Which makes a lot of sense.
Not too surprising.
'cause his background was as anfd, so he's all over the numbers.
(27:12):
But he chose not to consolidate.
So they work under separate brands.
Now, the other version of events iswhere you take all the businesses and
you kind of put them all together andyou put them under the same brand.
And that can work really well ifone of the businesses that you are
rebranding bringing into the group hasmaybe a bit of a dubious reputation.
(27:37):
Yeah it's, it would dowith a brand refresh.
We want to draw a line under thepast and start new ownership, new
start and all of those things.
But what I would say is it costsa lot of money to do rebrand.
I mean, you would not believe how muchmoney you can spend on signage, and
then you've gotta change the website.
So I would tread cautiouslywith a fast rebranding.
(28:02):
Now we had a speaker at the InnerCircle last year who's the managing
director of a private equity firm.
And his view I was surprised at was we dothat consolidation, rebranding instantly.
It's like if you're gonna cutdeep and cut fast and cut now,
I think it takes courage.
(28:23):
I think it takes deep pocketsjust in case you get it wrong.
If you don't have those deep pockets,I'd be a little bit more cautious.
I'd let things run their course.
I wouldn't be slamming everything togetherand pulling down the signage and calling
everything, giving people new uniforms orif that, if it's that type of business,
I wouldn't be doing that too fast.
(28:43):
I would tread a little carefullybecause you've gotta win some trust.
. So I'm not saying there's a right,and I'm not saying there's a wrong,
but what I would say is whatever theprocess that you take be conscious
that it might not all be plain sailing.
Hi, this is Jonathan Jay, and welcome toBusiness Buying Strategies, the number one
podcast for people interested in buying abusiness without risking their own cash.
Now, you might remember that in lastweek's episode, we heard from four of
our inner Circle members who sharedthe stories behind the businesses
they had acquired and offeredtheir advice for others starting
out on their acquisition journey.
(00:51):
Now this week I put a couple moreInner Circle members on the spot and
I'll be helping you to fast track yoursuccess by sharing with you some of the
things that I know work and some of thethings I know absolutely won't work.
I hope you enjoy it.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Okay, we are going to be talkingabout some of the uh, the top
(01:11):
lessons from the Inner Circle group.
And I talk about the inner circleguys and girls a lot because these
are the people who make it happen.
And to get into the inner circle, youhave to have done at least one deal that's
not owning a business, that's not sellinga business, that's buying a business.
And VIP clients in the room that youknow what you need to do as well.
So, let me share with you some ofthe things that I know work, some
(01:34):
of the things I know don't work.
So this session is all about fasttracking your success, . Okay,
now I can tell you that.
The majority of people comeinto mastermind with the
aspiration to buy one business.
And I can tell you right nowthat one deal, one business, one
(01:55):
acquisition can change your life.
it can double your income.
It can take your business fromwhere it is now to reach your
business goals far faster.
A great example of someonewho had a business already
and bought another business.
Someone called Nick.
And Nick bought a, has a printing company,large format printing company, and he
(02:19):
bought a balloon printing business.
And you might think, what does aballoon printing business have to
do with large format exhibitiondisplays and things like that?
Well, what happened is when hebought the balloon printing business,
they were getting about 10 to 15orders a day through the internet.
(02:40):
And the sales team on the large formatprinting business would phone up each of
those sales and say, we've got your order.
We've received the logo file.
Okay, can I ask what's the occasion?
And they would say, well,therefore an exhibition or there
for this, or there for that.
(03:00):
And the sales team would then look forthe other opportunities to upgrade from.
We're just buying some balloonsfor a few hundred pounds to, we're
buying exhibition stands and all thedisplays and all the graphics and all
the screens and everything that youneed, which is like 15,000 pounds.
So it was an upsell opportunity.
So if you own a business already,then maybe you'll be looking for the
(03:23):
upsell opportunity in an acquisition.
So one acquisition can transformyour business and one acquisition
if you're currently in employment,can transform your income.
And I wasn't intending to do this,but I was speaking to jazz last night.
Where's jazz?
Where are you?
. . Just share what you said to me aboutthe one acquisition you completed on a
few weeks ago, a couple of months ago,whenever it was and how that's impacted.
(03:46):
'cause you also have apaid, employed position, so.
. Yeah.
. So my first deal completedon 4th of April, yeah.
But , yeah, one deal can change your life.
'cause I think for me I mean, I have agood job, good salary, but you I never
wanna be a, I don't wanna be a director.
I have two kids and I'm 40 now, so I'vegot to the point where I just wanna
(04:09):
have time off be free, go on holidays.
But I like earning income, so, yeah,. The first business I've brought is,
it's 200 k, roughly just under twoebitda, so it's fairly small, but it's
an outstanding CQC outstanding rated.
It's got really good netprofit margin for the business.
So yeah, so that's great.
(04:29):
I mean, that's like myincome secured forever.
Even if I just stay on that one I'veowned it , since the 4th of April,
so I'd owned it for about four weekswhen I brought it, and then got the
opportunity to buy a second one.
And actually my seller, who I broughtthe first business from, is giving
me the money for the second one.
So now I'm at the end of June,hopefully have a business that's got
(04:51):
400 ebitda and 1.9 million revenue.
Well done.
Very good.
But the point I was making reallyis that the income from the business
replaces your income from the jobif you so wish to make that switch.
Oh, massive.
Massively.
And I'm here and it's a nice feeling.
(05:12):
I think the first day I brought thebusiness was the best feeling was to
know, I mean, I'll have, I've got 20staff now won the second acquisition.
I'll have 60 staff.
But to have a feeling when you're sat inthe garden or you're playing with your
kids and to know that you are makingmoney, that's like, it's truly passive.
And I think that's the best feeling.
That's amazing.
And before I ask you to sit backdown and thank you for doing this
(05:34):
just you came to your first inner circlemeeting two weeks ago, three weeks ago.
Just tell everyone what that waslike what sort of happened in
that meeting and how you felt?
It's great to be with people thathave businesses understand the
issues that you are dealing with.
And I think because it, forme, it's my first acquisition.
So there's some thingsI need to think about.
(05:54):
Like I need contacts for HRconsultants, that sort of thing.
Help with dealing with minimumwage staff and stuff like that.
But we can all share.
So I think Josh was there andhe's got nurseries and you're
dealing with similar sort of staff.
So you, you sort of each and it's akind of decent group of people, right?
Yeah, no, it's really good.
I actually, yeah, I actually celebrated.
(06:15):
Being able to get in inner circle ormore than I celebrated getting my deal.
Brilliant.
Thank jazz.
Thank you so much.
That absolutely brilliant.
Let's give her a roundof applause, shall we?
Thank you.
Alright, brilliant.
Okay, so which beautifullysegues into point number one,
which is validating the model.
So what jazz has done there verysmartly, has validated the model.
(06:39):
So acquisition number one is allabout checking that your assumptions
are correct, that you can acquirethis business, you can do it.
We want you to do it in a way thatdoesn't risk any of your own capital.
If you wish to risk yourcapital, it's entirely up to you.
We suggest that you don't,but yep, you're grownups.
You can make your own decision, butwe suggest that you don't do that.
(06:59):
You don't need to do that.
You don't need to risk, you don't needto do it with any risk whatsoever.
And that's exactly what has happened here.
And it's validating several things.
It's validating that you can do it.
And that's that self belief thatwhen you've done it once you realize
that, goodness me, why was I, whywas I dilly dallying over this?
And I spent a lot of time helpingpeople overcome procrastination.
(07:21):
And I found that one of the fastest waysto help people overcome procrastination
is to give people a deadline and say,come on, let's get it done by this date.
And when people have a focus ofa deadline and a, I don't want to
let myself down, let anyone elsedown they make sure it happens and
they get focused and they do it.
So when you're validating the model,you're validating it for yourself, but
(07:41):
also you're validating the business case.
And the business case is youcan buy a business in this case
roughly 200,000 pounds of pre-taxprofit, which I think is solid.
That's a that's nice.
That's starts to move the needle.
I mean, if you were telling me abouta business that makes 20,000 pounds
of of pre-tax profit, I would say, whyare you doing this unless you already
(08:06):
have a business that does what thatbusiness does and really you're just
scooping up the contracts, you arelosing all the overhead and that 20 turns
into 150 because you're just puttingit into your existing infrastructure
that you are already paying./
You are far better off buying a businessthat makes money before you own it,
(08:29):
because then the chances are a lot higher.
It will make money after you own it.
You'll also notice that you can'tget any finance to buy a distressed
business because it's distressedand it can't afford the finance.
No one will ever lend you right, Martin?
You can't get financed to buya business that's losing money.
So focus on businessesthat make money, okay?
(08:51):
Very important.
I can see some of you're taking notes.
I've got lots of notes.
In fact, some of you if you're not takingnotes, I would suggest that you jot
things down as we go along because it'sreally easy to forget this by the time
you get back into the office on Tuesday.
So, validating the model is all aboutchecking the assumption that when
you buy this business, you can dowhat you say you are going to do.
(09:12):
I'll give you an example.
And this is someone I know not partof Mastermind, but someone I know.
And I just saw this onLinkedIn last night.
So this is like one of those, I justsaw it and I'm telling you about it.
So a fair number of years ago,there was someone on Dragon's
Den that you might remember.
In fact, we should have askedRichard about this yesterday.
He had something called the I Teddy, andit was a teddy bear with an iPad in its
(09:38):
stomach, which was a little bit strange,and I don't think it went down that
well because, we're trying to discouragescreen time with children, not encourage
it by putting it in their teddy bear.
Okay.
His name was his name is Imran.
Hakeem.
Okay.
But he wasn't to be discouraged because hedecided to go down a completely different
(10:00):
path and buy independent opticians.
Independent opticians.
And this was the propositionto the independent opticians.
He said, look, oh, actually we havesome opticians in the room, right?
Where are you guys?
Yeah, over here.
Yeah.
So do you know who I'm talking?
You know who I'm aboutto talk about, don't you?
Yeah, of course.
Is he kind of like wellknown in the sector?
(10:21):
I guess he must be.
Yeah.
So, the proposition was this, youdon't like marketing, you don't like
the back office, you don't like theadmin, you don't like the hr, you don't
like hiring and firing and employingand all you don't like, you just want
to do your job that you trained for.
You want to be an optometristand that's what you wanna do.
That's his, I dunno whetheryou've ever been pitched by them
but that's the pitch, right?
(10:42):
And he said, I will do all of thosethings for 50% of the business
and you for 50% of the businesswill carry on doing what you do.
And together we're gonna bestronger because at the moment,
your business valuation is zero.
But if we collaborate and there's otheropticians in the group, then we're
gonna have a future higher value thanif you were just doing this by yourself.
(11:02):
Because right now, quite frankly,you're sitting on a job, you're
not sitting on a business.
Does that make sense to everyone?
So he went out and he didthis, and he did it 70 times.
He's motivated 70 times.
And then he went and gotsome minority investment.
I had a conversation with him about this.
And I'll give you just some generalnumbers without being too specific.
(11:23):
But let's say there was a 10 millionplus payout to him and his family,
the shareholders but then there wasa similar amount put in as growth
capital by this investment company.
They then turbocharged the businessand after, and that was five years ago.
And yesterday it was sold again..And at that point of sale yesterday,
(11:45):
there were 500 opticians practicesin the group in five years.
Alright?
Now I can tell you because I know hedidn't do a single thing different
to anything that I teach you.
(12:08):
Not one single thing.
(12:29):
/ So validating the model is important because once you validated the model,
once, you could do it 500 times.
. John's gonna be in our innercircle panel later, by the way.
And he's validated his model withtelecoms and done it 17 times.
Okay?
Harry and Tim, you've validated the model.
(12:50):
You've done it twice.
You're ready for number three andnumber four you validate the model.
You do it again.
Rob, with marine type businessesvalidated, the model went from 3 million
to 30 million euros of revenue in the fiveyears that you've been part of the group.
And by the way, can I just say that Ihave people I. In my, particularly in
the Inner Circle group, who have investedover 50,000 pounds individually with me.
(13:17):
Interestingly, they are the mostsuccessful people in the deal makers
community because they don't stop.
They just keep on goingand keep on coming.
Where's Perry?
Hi.
Hi Perry.
. As I tell Scotsman you spoke aboutreturn on investment yesterday.
I don't put a for a footforward that unless I'm gonna
(13:38):
make a return on investment.
That's probably with every of abusiness conversation I have as well.
It's can not calculated, but it'sall well planned out and structured
when I'm in a business environment.
And this is your third yearin an in the inner circle?
Yeah.
This is my third year in the Inner Circle.
I've been involved with themergers and acquisitions since
1995 internationally and uk.
(14:01):
So I've got quite a lot of experience,but I came to a position in my
career that it was very difficultto speak with people that had the
same what could I say, go-gettingattitude and that's what I found it.
Inner circle.
Also, if I had any problems, I can textthe guys, WhatsApp them, give them a call.
And what have your numbersbeen the last few years?
(14:23):
Like last few years, I broughtthe company up to 14 million
and I've got 15% net profit.
I'm pro 15, 15%.
Oh, 15, I was gonna say.
Yeah.
No, 15, 15%.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Didn't know that one.
And that's a, that's in theconstruction and property.
So that's 15% in construction is high.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very high.
(14:43):
I'm in the process of looking foranother, probably six companies.
I want I'm running two groups of companiesjust now, the construction group.
I'm taking up to 10 companiesbefore I'll be putting up for sale.
So I work every single day.
I'm a little bit differentfrom other people.
I love what I do and it's notwork, it's just that's my life.
Yeah.
Well, actually, when you enjoywhat you do, it isn't work, is it?
(15:04):
It's something that you want to do?
Yeah.
Brilliant.
Thank, sorry.
No, I'll let you finish.
Yeah, so the inner circle has gave melike the support and backing that I
needed and especially Jonathan last year.
So I was seriously, I last year and no, Idon't think anyone in this room, not even
in their circle would know, but Jonathansupported me throughout the whole process.
(15:24):
So I'd like to thank Jonathan for that.
Oh, okay.
Alright.
So I wasn't expecting that, but, okay.
Thank you.
Thanks, Terry.
. So, so validating the model, onceyou've got it right, you can just
replicate it again and again.
So let's get the first deal, right,because it's really important.
If you get the first deal wrong,it might knock you back and you
(15:46):
might never get to deal number two.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
You've gotta get the first one, right?
And success breeds success.
Now, here is a very important pointwith any business that you buy.
The people are essential, andtraining is the secret weapon.
So the biggest asset in your businessare the people, but the biggest
(16:09):
liability can also be the people as well.
They can work with you andthey can work against you.
If you get them to work with you,if you empower them to help you
get where you want to go, youcan just let them run with it.
I'll give you a great example.
So Jason is not here today againin a circle, of course, but Jason
(16:31):
he came on Mastermind in about 2018and he disappeared for a couple of
years, didn't hear anything from him,and then he appeared again and he
said, I've just done my first deal.
And I thought, well, I'm glad because Ithought that life had just got in the way.
He'd gone down a different path.
Something had distracted him.
And in fact, actually he should be here.
'cause I just realizedhe lives in Marbella.
(16:51):
He lives down the road, buthe's he should really be here.
And he he bought his first business,which was a a steel fabrication
business in the northeast of England.
19 million of revenue, justover 1 million of profit.
18 months later it was 36 millionof revenue, which is kind of near,
well, like, kind of double, right?
And I said, how did you do it?
And he said, I empowered the people.
(17:11):
All I did, I was asked them,I asked them what what we
could do to grow the business.
And you know what they said?
Answer the phone.
Yeah.
Because you see the exiting ownerretirement age didn't really
want more customers because morecustomers, more staff, more hassles.
I've got enough money, don'tneed any more effort, effort in
(17:32):
my life and stress in my life.
So they answered the phone, they quoted,they did better quality work, got the
quotes right, cut out the work thatdidn't really make much margin and grew.
And then he did a second acquisitiongot him up to 50 million of revenue,
which allowed him, because he hadnumber one, by the way, on our
list, was what validate the model.
He'd validated the model, heproved that he could do it.
(17:54):
He could raise 25 million as a warchest for the next acquisition.
Now, if you had 25 million inthe bank, do you think that would
kind of move you forward faster?
Well, yes, but no one's gonna give youthat until you validated the model.
So he validated the model, but partof validating the model was making
sure that training of the people andthe people, empowering the people
(18:15):
got him where he wanted to go.
So all of these things fittogether a little bit, like
pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
Separately, they may not make much sensewhen you start to fit them together.
They lock in and you see the big picture.
Now, the training is one of thosethings that there was a saying.
Anyone remember Peter Thompson,Nightingale Conan, Peter Thompson.
(18:38):
Yeah.
The great yeah.
Great.
Peter Thompson was likeoh, he must be 80 plus now.
And Peter and I were very good friendsyears and years ago where we did
some stuff together and he was, ifyou who's heard, A knighting year?
Conant.
Oh, a few of you.
You know what, if this was like 20years ago, it'd be every single person.
They brilliant publishers of businesscontent and personal development content.
(18:59):
And Peter had this saying maybeit wasn't his, but he was the
person I heard it from where he is.
He said bosses are concerned that ifthey invest in training their staff,
so time and money training their staff,what happens if they leave and I've just
wasted my money and I've wasted my time?
I train them up and they leave.
(19:22):
But what happens if you don'ttrain them and they stay,
which is a bigger problem, right?
So investing in the training is actuallysomething that you should be doing.
And you can't do it once.
You cannot do it once.
You can't do it onceand hope that it sticks.
It's like anything, it's like goingto the gym once it doesn't work.
(19:44):
Unfortunately, you'vegotta keep going, right?
And when you stop going,you kind of move backwards.
So the move forwards, you'vegotta keep going, you gotta
keep going, gotta keep going.
Okay?
So the training is an ongoingprocess that never stops.
And if you do that and you want to reachsignificant financial goals, that training
(20:08):
will help you get there far faster.
The alternative is you don'ttrain them, you don't have high
performers, and the business startsto go downwards and you wonder why.
And that's the reason why.
. Okay.
So number three is focus onquality day-to-day management.
(20:29):
Now, day-to-day management isdifferent to head office management.
Day-to-day management is thepeople in that branch, in
that location, in that office.
And you need quality management.
Otherwise, what's gonna happen isyou are gonna end up with a job.
Let me tell you how that worksin reality, this is how it works.
You as the entrepreneurial minded person,probably you are a good problem solver.
(20:56):
Okay?
You're a good problem solver.
Maybe you enjoy solving problems.
You're just good at solving problems.
If you've got a few years behindyou of experience you've got that
experience that you can use to addressand solve just about any problem
that the business throws at you.
So you solve a problem inthe business that you buy.
And people go, oh, that was good.
That was really good.
You solved that problem really well.
(21:17):
I've got another problem.
Could you solve this for me?
Do you see what we're doing here?
We are training people to ask usevery time they've got a problem.
So they don't go andsolve their own problems.
They just come to you because you'rejust so good at solving problems.
And you know what?
You probably enjoy it.
And it's probably good for your egoas well, that people keep coming
and asking you at the beginning.
It's good for your ego because peopleasking you to solve the problems
and you're solving the problems.
And and before you know it, there'sa queue of people out the door
(21:38):
asking you to solve a problem.
So, you know what?
It's just easier if youget a desk in the office.
You didn't intend to do this, ofcourse, because you'd listen to me.
But now you're gonna geta desk in the office.
You put a desk in the office and youdecide to go in one day a week, and you
spend one day a week solving problems.
And then someone says, it'd begreat if you come in on Mondays
for our Monday morning meeting.
So you come on Mondays for theMonday morning meeting, people
tell you that you're inspirational.
So you're gonna be there for the Mondaymorning meeting, the Thursday morning
(22:00):
problems, the Friday afternoon problems.
Before you know it,you're there every day.
And before you know it,you've got yourself a job.
It creeps up on you stepby step, bit by bit.
You don't notice it.
And this is very important.
So the way to solve the problem is tohave this quality day to day management.
And you've gotta have good people.
Now, there are severalschools of thought of this.
(22:20):
You take the peoplethat are already there.
You maybe elevate some of the peoplewho are already working in the company.
Maybe they could have a larger rolenow that the owner manager has left.
You parachute in your own people.
You bring in your own people to to do.
I've done all variations of these.
I don't think there's really aset formula for success on this.
It's more of a, dependsupon the situation.
(22:45):
There's definitely a view thatbringing someone in from the
outside can alienate everyone else.
But then I know in some sectorsthat is exactly what they do.
They bring in a manager who doesit, the sort of the company way.
So they set the standardright from the start.
So this is the thing.
You've got to get the people on side.
We know that.
(23:06):
But if you get the management on sideand the right management on side, they
will get the people on side for you.
You've gotta have everyonepointing in the same direction.
You know that if you've got a badapple, that is the distracting
person in your company.
So you can have 50 people in the companyand one person who just distracts
from every as the everyone else.
And you should be focusing onthe 49 that are doing great.
(23:28):
And the one person who's distractingbad apple, they suck all the energy
outta the room or outta the the company.
Operations, the day-to-day stuffis where the headaches are.
That is where you lay in bed at nightat 3:00 AM worrying about stuff.
(23:49):
You need to let otherpeople worry about stuff.
So you can think big picture.
What's the big picture?
It's the next acquisition.
And you can't do that if you'resucked into the day-to-day stuff.
Now here's the thing.
You need to buy quality businesses.
The quality businesses don't alwayshave to be huge businesses with mega
profits, you're looking for good, notnecessarily great, because if you can
(24:14):
turn the business from good to great.
Or in other words, let the managementteam turn the business from good to great.
Then you have an uplift invalue so you can sell it for
more than you bought it for.
So what we're doing here is we are lookingfor a quality good business that makes
money, even if the owner's removed.
And this is the problemwith the smaller businesses.
With the smaller businesses, you takethe owner out and there's nothing there.
(24:37):
Quite often the smaller businessescan appear very profitable, but
they're only profitable because theowner does the jobs of three people.
Yeah.
So like a, care homes, theycould take a care home.
So the owner might be the managerdo a little bit of cleaning
later on and is in the kitchen atlunchtime because they like cooking.
Now you try putting an advert on Indeedsaying, we're looking for a manager
(24:58):
who enjoys cooking and is happy to dothe cleaning when everyone goes home.
The staff.
So, so you're not gonna find that person.
So sometimes you've gotta employsthree people to replace one.
So what we want then is a business thatmakes money, even if the owner's removed.
So part of your diligence, and you don'tneed an accountant to do this for you,
you can do this yourself, is if I wentand hired the person to do this owner's
(25:20):
job for when they've gone, how wouldthe profits look like at that point?
How do you find out how muchyou would pay this person?
Huh?
You go on Indeed.
Total jobs, any of these job sitesand and you just find out what
people in Nottingham are paid as acare home manager, simple as that.
Oh, they're paid 35,000 pounds, right?
That's what we've gotta have someone in.
(25:41):
But let's say, 35 plus NI andall of these things, he's like
42 and a half 45, allow 45,000.
What does that do to our profits now?
Now, the big question I get askeda lot is, do you consolidate these
businesses if you're buying more thanone or do you just leave them alone?
(26:03):
And I'll give you an exampleof someone who left them alone.
So, so Sam Sam was on Mastermind2018, something like that.
And he went and bought his background bythe way, was a professional footballer.
That was his, this video'son my YouTube channel.
You have to scroll backlike, 18 months or so.
But it was on YouTube.
And Sam was a professionalfootballer turned finance director.
(26:27):
And he worked for tui, the travel people.
And TUI bought a business andthey were doing this consolidation
of the two businesses together.
And it was a nightmare.
It was an absolute nightmare.
Everything that could go wrong went wrong.
Big company buying another big company,culture clash, all of those things.
And it it traumatized him and he said, I'mnever doing another consolidation ever.
(26:51):
So he went and bought three HVACcompanies, total revenue, 17 million,
and kept them completely separate.
The only thing that was consolidatedwas the back office finance.
So with one click of a button, he cansee the group position in terms of the
balance sheet and the p and l and themanagement accounts on a day by day basis.
Which makes a lot of sense.
Not too surprising.
'cause his background was as anfd, so he's all over the numbers.
(27:12):
But he chose not to consolidate.
So they work under separate brands.
Now, the other version of events iswhere you take all the businesses and
you kind of put them all together andyou put them under the same brand.
And that can work really well ifone of the businesses that you are
rebranding bringing into the group hasmaybe a bit of a dubious reputation.
(27:37):
Yeah it's, it would dowith a brand refresh.
We want to draw a line under thepast and start new ownership, new
start and all of those things.
But what I would say is it costsa lot of money to do rebrand.
I mean, you would not believe how muchmoney you can spend on signage, and
then you've gotta change the website.
So I would tread cautiouslywith a fast rebranding.
(28:02):
Now we had a speaker at the InnerCircle last year who's the managing
director of a private equity firm.
And his view I was surprised at was we dothat consolidation, rebranding instantly.
It's like if you're gonna cutdeep and cut fast and cut now,
I think it takes courage.
(28:23):
I think it takes deep pocketsjust in case you get it wrong.
If you don't have those deep pockets,I'd be a little bit more cautious.
I'd let things run their course.
I wouldn't be slamming everything togetherand pulling down the signage and calling
everything, giving people new uniforms orif that, if it's that type of business,
I wouldn't be doing that too fast.
(28:43):
I would tread a little carefullybecause you've gotta win some trust.
. So I'm not saying there's a right,and I'm not saying there's a wrong,
but what I would say is whatever theprocess that you take be conscious
that it might not all be plain sailing.
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