How to Start a Creative Business Imperfectly and Evolve Without Burnout | Margo Tantau

Tired of waiting for the perfect moment to start your creative business? Struggling with burnout from trying to follow cookie-cutter business advice that doesn't fit your life?

In this episode, I talk with Margo Tantau: creative director, licensing agent, and host of Windowsill Chats Podcast, about building a sustainable creative business by following your gut instead of formulas. Margo shares her non-linear path from corporate to running her own licensing agency, and why starting imperfectly is actually the key to long-term success.

We talk about why perfectionism keeps women entrepreneurs stuck, how to create a business that adapts to your capacity (not the other way around), and why vulnerability and connection beat marketing funnels every time. If you've been holding back because you're afraid of starting over or don't have it all figured out, this conversation gives you permission to begin—and evolve without burnout.

In This Episode, You'll Learn:

• Why you're stuck waiting for "perfect" to start your creative business – and how to give yourself permission to begin imperfectly and evolve as you learn.
• How to recognize when you're actually evolving, not starting over – Your past work, pivots, and changes aren't wasted—they're building blocks for what comes next.
• Why your gut knows more than cookie-cutter formulas – How to trust your instincts to build a sustainable creative business that fits your life, not someone else's blueprint.
• What burnout is really telling you about your business approach – and how to create a capacity-first business that adapts to your energy and circumstances instead of draining them.
• How to reframe "I'm starting all over again" into "I'm recalibrating" – A simple mindset shift that helps you move forward without the weight of feeling behind.
• Where your creativity already shows up – even if you don't think you're "creative enough" to start a business.
• How to build connections and relationships instead of relying on perfect marketing – Why vulnerability and authenticity create sustainable growth for women entrepreneurs without burnout.

🎧 Want to learn more about today’s guest?

Visit CraftedToThrive.com for guest details, key takeaways, and extra links mentioned in this episode.

🌿 If you’re navigating entrepreneurship and chronic illness, or simply craving a more sustainable way to grow your business without sacrificing your health, energy, or self-care priorities, explore Chronically You & Profitable (CYAP).

CYAP is my voice-first business system designed for women entrepreneurs, creatives, and women with chronic illness who want sustainable growth and burnout support while keeping life and wellness first.

It helps you use your voice and story to build a business with systems and strategies that run smoothly, so your work supports your life, not the other way around.

⭐ Enjoyed this conversation? Leave a review and share it with another CEO woman or...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Ever feel like you're waitingfor the perfect moment to start your
creative business or worriedthat you need to pivot in a certain
time in a certain way becauselife has thrown you some curveballs
and it's time to pivot orjust, you know, your life is changing?

(00:22):
I know for me personally, Ihave gotten frozen at times in that
space, and there are certainthings that help me.
And that's why I wanted tobring this lovely guest onto our
show, because she is theperfect person to talk about this.
Her name is Marco Tantou, andI've connected with her on Instagram,
I've been on her showwindowsill Chats, and she's just

(00:45):
a breath of fresh air when itcomes to creativity and how to not
allow perfection to get youstuck and not allow burnout to happen
because you're not givingyourself permission to build your
business in the way that worksfor you.
And so Margo is a creativedirector, a licensing agent, and

(01:09):
like I mentioned, the host ofWindow Seal Chats podcast who's built
her entire career by doing theopposite of what traditional business
advice tells you.
And she really does follow her gut.
She uses her creativity toguide and to move her towards different
things in her business.
She starts imperfectly and shelets her business evolve naturally

(01:31):
over time instead of trying tokeep it in a box.
What you want to listen for inthis episode is why waiting for perfect
is actually what's keeping you stuck.
And we talk about how Margotand I believe the only way to know
what people want is to get thegritty side, the imperfect side of
something out there.

(01:51):
Number two, the vulnerablephone call that our guests had that
led to her inheriting a dreamopportunity, showing that collaboration,
community, connection andauthenticity beat cookie cutter marketing
funnels every time.
And number three, how toreframe, starting over as recalibrating,

(02:14):
and why your past work isnever wasted.
It's your foundation.
By the end of thisconversation, you'll have permission
to start your creativebusiness or restart or pivot imperfectly,
trusting your intuition overformulas, taking what is for you
and leaving what isn't foryou, and build something sustainable

(02:34):
that adapts to your lifewithout the burnout.
So stay tuned.
The only way you're reallygoing to know what people want is
to get the gritty side outthere and just do it.
It really doesn't have to beperfect because you're going to want
to change it and evolve withit anyway.

(02:55):
So I'm forever inspired bypeople who just put themselves out
there.
And if you're wanting to trysomething, I highly encourage you
to find a way to do so.
Welcome to Business withChronic Illness, the globally ranked
podcast for women living withchronic illness who want to start

(03:18):
and grow a business online.
I'm your host, Nikita Williams.
And I went from living a normal.
Life to all of a sudden being.
In constant pain with no, noanswers to being diagnosed with multiple
chronic illnesses and tryingto make a livable income.
I faced the challenge ofadapting traditional business advice
to fit my unique circumstanceswith chronic illness.

(03:38):
Feeling frustrated and moreburned out than I already was while
managing my chronic illness tobecoming an award winning coach with
a flexible, sustainable onlinecoaching business, I found the surprisingly
simple steps to starting andgrowing a profitable business without
compromising my health or my peace.
Since then, I've helped dozensof women just like you learn how

(04:00):
to do the same.
If you're ready to create athriving business that aligns with
your lifestyle and well being,you're in the right place.
Together, we're shifting thenarrative of what's possible for
women with chronic illness and.
How we make a living.
This is Business with Chronic Illness.
I am so, so, like, I say thisalmost every episode.

(04:23):
Like, seriously, I'm soexcited, but I am really excited
to have Margot on the show.
We had a conversation on her podcast.
We've been following eachother, I feel like for years now.
It feels weird to say that.
I think we kind of came intothe world of each other, like during
the pandemic maybe.
Yeah.
And I just love what you're doing.
I love your vibe, I love your essence.

(04:45):
Whenever I look at you andlisten to you, I think about the
make it show.
When they're like on the,like, how they're always so creative.
I'm like, oh, she's like awalking naked show.
I love, love it.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, so please tell everyone,like, how you would describe yourself.

(05:06):
Obviously, we'll have, youknow, your bio in the beginning,
but I just kind of want tohear if someone were to walk up to
you and be like, hey, what isit that you do?
How would you describe that?
I've never been good at anelevator pitch because I have to.
It would be, it would needmany floors that elevate.
I love that.
I used to, when I worked at.
Hallmark, I used to go fourfloors and I'd think, like, I'd practice.

(05:30):
I'd be like, what is thatthing that I want to do?
And it would open on four andI'd still be like, I don't know.
But seriously, I love that myFavorite thing is to be in the company
of other creative people andhelp creative people get further
than they knew they could geton their own.
That's.
That's the basic net net of it.

(05:51):
I'm a. I'm a creator as well.
I told somebody the other dayI was a secret silversmith.
He's like, a secret silversmith.
What does that mean exactly?
I said, it means that nobodyreally knows.
I do it, and I do it just afew times a year because that's all
I have time for.
But I do get my hands three dimensional.
Art for myself is.
Is more my comfort level.

(06:12):
I can draw in wire much.
When I draw something in wire,it comes out like I see it in my
mind and when I try the samething in pencil.
So, like, I used to makelittle things.
Like, I had a business where Imade things out of wire and sold
it.
But last summer I had.
I took a.
Just for fun.
A friend was teaching a wireportrait class, and I kicked out

(06:34):
this portrait of my kiddo.
And I was like, yeah, that'show I see it.
And other people are like, howdo you do that?
It was just like, just my mindthinks dimensionally.
I'm a product development person.
That's one of my day jobs.
So maybe that's whydimensionality is more my thing than
a canvas.
I just have never felt like Ireally hit my own style on a canvas.
Although I do like to mess around.

(06:54):
I help other artists, and inmy rare free time, I dabble myself.
Yeah, I think that's reallycool that you do that.
Like, I don't think everybodycan do that.
Like, I know not everybody cantake something that's in their mind
and then make it three dimensional.
I think it's hard for me toeven just get it on the paper.

(07:16):
So that is really cool.
Tell us a little bit moreabout, like, product development.
What did that look like foryou when you're currently doing it?
Well, I always kind of am insome way or another.
So how it came to be, I've hada very entrepreneurial path, actually.
I think it probably startedwith the wire stuff.

(07:38):
I. I was in retail probablybefore it was legal to pay me, but
I did.
Seriously, don't tell anybody.
But I've always beeninterested in.
In things.
And my mom was an interior designer.
So being around, lookingthrough, like, beautiful fabrics

(07:58):
and kind of creating a spaceand what goes into that space.
And then I kind of drilled itdown to, if you're creating a tablescape,
what would you put on it?
If you were building a holidayline, where would it be?
What would it look like?
What would be on the tree?
What would be on the mantel?
And so I worked when I.
After I had decided I'd doneall the entrepreneurial things I

(08:21):
could without learning productdevelopment myself, worked corporate
so I could kind of traveloverseas and.
And understand factories andall that went into it.
This was, you know, 25 years ago.
There was a lot of.
If I'd go to a show to seeartists work, it would be presented

(08:42):
flat, you know, in a book oron a poster or something.
And I needed to take that work and.
Or I got to take that work andmake it dimensional.
What would this look like ifwe created a whole line out of it?
And whether that line be forhome decor gift or stationary or
holiday or whatever, whoever Ihappen to be working for.
So as I would kind of talk topeople that I ended up since 2014,

(09:08):
teaching a class through makeart that sells.
It was, as an artist, how tothink that way.
Because I see so manyportfolios and work where there's
so much more opportunity toget your art onto the world as a
creator now print on demandand this teacher and that teacher.
But how do you really thinkthat way?
And how do you take it in frommore than one person?

(09:31):
So you.
Again, it's not unlike me notfeeling like I'm in charge of my
own painting style.
How do you get your own styleand start to show what your art can
look like?
So I've always done productdevelopment, but then I transition
into teaching other people howto think dimensionally with their
creativity as well.

(09:51):
Wow, that's a skill mark.
That's a skill to be able toteach people to think that way.
Like, wow, I think that's sucha cool thing to be able to do.
And you've been doing it.
Like, it feels like from whatyou're describing, like you're teaching
other entrepreneurs to do thesame thing.
I think this is a little bitof a tangent, but I promise it has

(10:12):
a. I promise you it hassomething related to what we're talking
about.
So I am not a.
Like, I'm a creative person.
I have a lot of ideas.
Like, I love to draw flowers.
I have sketches.
I have sketchbook books everywhere.
Things that I've done in myjournal, there's half sketches everywhere.
Right.
And I've always wanted, like,in the back of my mind, I'm like,

(10:33):
one day I'm gonna have like,my own little, like, shop where I
want to have, like, thesesketches put on Something like put
them on things and things like that.
And my challenge has alwaysbeen what's on the paper versus what's
on the thing that I want it tobe on.
I don't know.
I have no idea what I'm doing.

(10:54):
I don't know what I'm doing.
So I've tried it and I'm like,well, that's not quite it.
That's not quite the thing.
And I.
This is really true.
You guys are going to hearsomething from me I haven't said
because of that I've shiedaway from that aspect of my creativity
because it feels like.
Well, I feel like I have tooutsource that aspect of things.

(11:15):
Like, I have friends that aregraphic designers that can in some
way know how to translate whatI've done into a thing.
And that just feels like awhole extra step that I don't want
to have to go through and Idon't want to have to do.
So what I hear you saying,bringing this back is like you're
teaching other people who kindof have the same kind of thing of
like, how do you make this toa different medium than where you

(11:38):
probably have, like, put it on.
Right, exactly right.
How do you think about that thing?
And I know to your point,there's those things that stop us.
And it might be that yourmusic teacher in third grade said,
you can't say, so you stopped,or you.
For me, when I very firststarted, took my very first jewelry
class, which I always wantedto do, and I was in my 20s, and I

(12:00):
took it from a very precise,mathy, German linear teacher, and
I was like, well, I guess I'mnot going to be a jeweler because
I don't think that way.
I just said, no.
I had my tools and I put them away.
I still have the same silverbecause I haven't used it all up
yet.
Then I found a teacher, Idon't know 10 years ago that we spoke

(12:23):
the same language, or she cameat it from a much more organic point
of view.
So the same thing.
I get it where you're like, Isee this happening.
I see other people doing this.
I can imagine it.
But how do I get there?
And we often think like, well,I'm not a wiz at Illustrator, Photoshop,
so I guess I'm just going tohave to pack that away.

(12:45):
But there's so many ways nowthat you can go about that.
And that is what I teach thatin, in the how to Design for Home
Decor.
That is the name of the class.
But it's how to think threedimensional product.
Basically it's very in depthbecause we talk about different substrates,
wood, glass, metal, fabric, ceramics.

(13:06):
But it's really the thought process.
If, if I'm drawing a flower ora bird, how does that translate?
Do I want to.
Am I the type of person thatI'm in that's interested in making
it into a pattern?
Do I just.
Am I just dreaming aboutseeing it on a mug or in a snow globe
or on a pillow?
You know, what is that thing?
And so there are now toolsthat make it a lot easier, like the

(13:29):
iPad and procreate.
Make it a lot easier to justdraw something.
And the other thing that makesit a lot easier are the print on
demand companies that we havethat will do it for you.
You can go into Moonflower andupload a little doodle and say, make
me a repeat and they'll makeit for you.
I didn't know Spoonflower did that.

(13:51):
I have a lot of friends whohave used Spoonflower and then they
always make it seem like it'smore complicated than I feel like
it probably is.
I feel like it's kind of likea little gatekeeping happening over
here with some aspects ofcreativity when it comes to using
those type of platforms.
But that's interesting.
I didn't realize that I wouldsay most people upload their beautiful

(14:12):
patterns, but if you have like for.
I did this, I had a littlelogo that my friend had for her business
and she wanted to make thesedog bandanas.
And I was like, well, let'sjust pop that in there and make it
a repeat.
And I don't want to take thetime to do it.
Let's.
And they did it.
So.
But there's other companiesthat will.
And it.
Even if you have a sketch, yousketched a beautiful flower and that

(14:37):
sketch you can see on something.
If you upload it and.
And you can see it ondifferent formats, it's still.
All you might have to do isadjust the size of it, adjust the
placement.
That's not saying.
That's not giving you theultimate decision.
But you, you can only put iton what that print on demand company

(14:59):
can do, right?
Totally.
Yeah.
But you can start a businessif you want, depending on the margin
on all those things.
Yeah, I love that.
I love that you shared that.
Because there are a lot ofcreative people that listen to my
show that live with chronicillness and to their point, similar.
I've heard them say to melike, hey, I love doing this.

(15:19):
I love doing this sketch.
I love Doing these little things.
But the thing, like, for me,the thing that holds them up is sometimes
the technical aspect of, like,how do you make this into a thing
or into a business?
And that's interesting aboutyour experience, because from the
research that I did, I feellike you are just creative in general.
Like, that's your vibe, that'syour life.

(15:40):
But you designed it that way.
Like, it.
It's.
You transitioned from beingmostly like in some level of corporate
and then transition your wholelife and way of being into like this
creative direction that hasled to like windowsill chats and
your.
Your course that you have.
So tell us a little bit more,like, what inspired that transition?

(16:03):
Like, what led to that beinglike, I'm designing this life differently.
Sure, absolutely.
So I would say that I startedout that way early on, and I went
in and went out again.
So I think part of it isgrowing up with a mom that decided
once her kids were.

(16:24):
And I'm not young.
So my mom, you know, at somepoint decided to go to work as an
interior designer.
She had always wanted to do that.
She took those courses in school.
But then in her era, she wasto be a teacher or a secretary or
a nurse.
Those were the things, right?
Or an admin.
A little secretary.
But she had taken these designclasses and she became a mom.

(16:46):
And then when my sister and Iwere old enough, she started an interior
design business.
And it was still mostly menthat were interior designers.
There was a few women that.
But I mean, and there weren'teven very many.
We lived in an.
I grew up in the Napa Valleywhen it was before it was fancy in
the wine country.
And we moved there because myparent, we had lived in the San Francisco

(17:07):
Bay area and they wanted aquieter place to raise their kids.
And There were only 16wineries when we moved there.
So she was.
She ended up designing forsome really cool jobs.
She was the only game.
She and this other guy werethe only game in town.
And so I grew up watchingsomebody achieve what they really

(17:30):
wanted to do in their heart.
So that was a built in an example.
And I also had always heardthe story that my dad worked for
the bank for two years, eventhough he was a pilot in the military.
My grandfather said, no way,you can't be a pilot.
No way.
I'm not having it.
And my dad said, after twoyears sitting behind a desk, I have

(17:53):
to go fly.
So he was a professional pilotfor a commercial airline in that
time.
It was kind of like, kind of crazy.
Yeah, because I mean, we thinkabout it now, I think that's kind
of like, okay, but back thenthat was not the normal like at all.
And they always told me, youcan be whatever you want to be.

(18:13):
You can be whatever you decideyou're going to be.
And I was like, well, I'm notsure I can do math, but other than
that, you know, but, you know,that's one of the things.
And I was looking over some ofyour topics before we jumped on and
you know, what are the thingsthat stop us?
Well, we have to believe wecan as well, right?
We have to be able bodied.

(18:33):
Sometimes it's finances are inthe way or not in the, you know,
whatever.
So I've always had anentrepreneurial spirit and worked
for small companies.
And then when I got.
Then I had my own.
Then I went into corporatebecause I was like, I've reached
that financial wall.
Like, I don't want to go toChina by myself.
How do I figure that out?
What?
And then, honestly, every timeI thought I was going to start my

(18:54):
own business, I would go to myfriend's own businesses and see like
all the bubble wrap, the, theemployees, the messy side, not the
fun part.
And I was like, I don't wantsomebody else to do that.
I want that.
No.
So I went corporate for quitea while.
Then last company that Iworked for, Covid, didn't go well

(19:16):
during COVID And they, after35 years of a wonderful family business,
sold to another company.
And it was my time of.
Okay, you've been talkingabout this forever.
I had had the podcast for a while.
Do it, just do it.
So, you know, things fall intoplace whether we see them or not.

(19:38):
You know, people along the waywould say, like, what are you doing
now?
What job are you doing now?
But each, I'm giving you all permission.
Each thing along the way isleading to your next iteration.
It's leading to your next best self.
And if you follow your gutalong the way, it's leading to what
you want to be doing.
So I'm exactly where I want to be.

(19:59):
I love that.
I think it's scary though, right?
Oh, yeah.
Rent again.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
And people think you have yourown business.
Oh, you must be, you must have everything.
It's like you must be rollingin it.
It must be so good.
You must not have any.
I don't know what people.
These are people who don'thave businesses who think this.
Right.

(20:19):
Like, I really think that.
I'm like, anyway, I'm curiousto know what do you feel like in
those transitions of thoseshifts and changes, were there things
you're like, I don't reallywant to be doing this, but we'll
try it.
I don't know.
This was a mistake.
Like, what did those timeslook like for you?

(20:40):
I would say I had the most ofthose working for somebody else.
That's true.
Because there's a lot of cooksin those kitchens, and everybody
needs to, like, you know,like, let me show you what I can
do.
And so you have a boss, andthen a new boss comes in.
And so I was used to makingdecisions that were.

(21:05):
That landed really well withmy clients.
When I had my own businessbefore corporate, so young.
Then I went into corporate,and the first company I worked for
was great, but it was run by a woman.
Also unusual in 2000.
Then it wasn't.
Then it was sold and sold andsold again.
And everybody, five presidentsin four years, and they all have

(21:28):
their own ideas.
And it's just like after awhile, like, my inner voice was like,
no, this does not align.
And I have.
My patience grows whisper thinwhen I'm.
Don't.
Don't jerk me around, dude.
I mean, I hope I'm pretty easyto work with, but when I see people

(21:51):
not being mindful of theirpeople and using them to their best
abilities, or you go to a bigplace that has a great reputation
and they say, we want to hireyou because of your maybe outside
the box thinking.
And then you get there and they're.
Like, get in the box.
They're like, get in the box.
And you're like, wait, no.

(22:11):
Get in the box.
Yeah.
So I didn't do so well inthose situations.
I did as well as I could, butthen I think being entrepreneurial
doesn't go away.
And if you.
If any of you have that and you're.
And you're wanting to lean in,you know, lean in.
I think those were the hardesttimes for me when I felt like, good

(22:32):
ideas, not necessarily my own,but maybe my team.
I had fantastic teams andfantastic people that are doing wonderful
things, but are they beinglistened to, or are they just being
assumed to be a certain wayand have certain thoughts because
of their title?
For God's sake.
That's just something somebodysaid on a piece of paper.
So I just have a hard timewhen people aren't treated as their

(22:55):
best selves.
Yeah.
I always say I'm kind of.
I feel oftentimes like if Ihad to work for somebody else, I'm
kind of unemployable becauseI'm so Specifically, I've been an
entrepreneur for more than Ihave been working for somebody else.
Right.
And my life with chronicillness and my life with the way
I think and the way it is veryout of the box, and you try to put

(23:17):
me in that box, my body will.
My body will be like, we can'tdo this.
Like, we cannot get in the box.
You cannot do it.
You're my favorite kind ofperson to work with because you get
that that's much more outthere than people realize.
So how can we serve those people?
Yeah.
I love that.
That's so true.
I agree with you.
I look for those type ofpeople, too.

(23:39):
I don't know.
I just think you just have tofollow your gut.
Mm.
Have you done that in yourbusiness in that way?
Like, followed your gut on?
Like, this could work.
This could not work.
How.
How does that look like for you?
I think so.
I also tend to not want to dowhat everybody else is doing, which
is.

(24:00):
Sometimes holds me back alittle bit because I. I tend to take
a little.
Maybe too long to just getsomething out there, but that comes
back.
And I wouldn't say it's.
I'm afraid of doing it.
It's just like, is it.
Is it good enough yet?
We tend to overthink our own.
You know, just put it outthere and let other people tell you,
because you're gonna.
You know, you're gonna befiguring it out the whole time.

(24:20):
But, no, I think it's just a process.
I'm curious what led you tostarting a podcast?
And especially, like, you're.
You're like an actual og.
I tell.
I joke with people.
Like, I've been.
I'm like the OG of podcasting.
I'm like, no, I'm not.
Oh, that's such a compliment.
Like, I'm not.

(24:40):
I. I mean, you have such avariety of, like, guests on your
show.
You have such a variety oftopics on your show.
That's cool in itself.
But I'm.
I'm just curious what said Margot.
Let's start a podcast.
I have a notebook from yetanother class I took, like, how to

(25:01):
get out there and do your ownthing when I was in corporate, and
this was way back in, like,2014, and I wrote down, have a membership.
Start a podcast.
I might have even writtendown, have an agency, like, in 2014,
11 years ago.
And so I thought, but, like,who am I going to talk to?
What am I going to talk about?
What's my elevator pitch?

(25:22):
So Covid hit.
I found myself as we did.
We Kind of glommed together inthese little.
Who can I hang out with online?
And I joined this justwonderful mastermind and we were
all very different peopledoing very different things, which
I loved because it brought alot of different points of view in.
And one of the gals said,okay, you keep talking about this.

(25:45):
I d double dare you to pick adate to start this thing and just
start it, you know.
And I thought, oh, I have to,I have to do it all myself.
I have to learn all the thingsand I have to learn how to edit and
what course am I going to takeand what other course should I take
before it's that typical thing.
And.
And because I had that groupof cool, not necessarily like minded,

(26:08):
but like hearted women, Istarted it.
And it's the most consistentthing in my life besides, I don't
know, brushing my teeth.
But I do it every week.
I've shown up every week since2000, September 8, 2020.
And I love it because I get totalk to people like you.

(26:29):
It is so refreshing.
It is so cool.
Now when we're behind ourscreens and we're more, you know,
I'm pretty sequestered.
I work in my office a lot anda lot of creatives or people with
who don't feel so great orcan't get out as much like we're
kind of working in our ownlittle bubble.
And when we can hear a likeminded, soul aligned kind of conversation,

(26:53):
I'm all for it.
I guess this is a questionbecause it was a question for me.
I didn't know anything about podcasting.
When I started podcasting.
I was trying to start a blog.
So when I'm like, when I hearother people who are like, yeah,
I had it on my list, I'm like,like, what prompted you into thinking,
okay, a podcast would be agreat creative space?

(27:16):
Like, where did that come from?
I think because I triedblogging and I worked at it.
I am not a writer.
And when I it was blog spot.
When I tried in the dark agesand you had to code to get a picture
in there or you know, codinglight, but you had to like put this
thing in to get a picture.
And I was like, no.

(27:37):
So if I could just talk in amicrophone and be done.
Gotcha.
That is how.
And I also felt like I've beenin the industry for a while, I have
awesome connections and I'mfascinated by people and their stories.
It's Covid.
Why don't I just have some conversations?
Maybe people will listen.
Yeah, your conversations onthe show sound like are very reflective

(27:59):
versus, like, these business interviews.
Like, you know, what has beenthe values that guide that process
for you.
Thank you.
I really like that questionbecause I tend to go look at a title
of a podcast of somebody elsethat I have followed for a long time,
and I'm like, I don't think Iwanted that businessy part.
I just want a conversation tolisten to or true crime.

(28:21):
I'm a true crime girl.
But I really like listening topeople and seeing and feeling like
I'm sitting down with themover a cup of coffee.
And I'm really interested inwhat they have to say.
So I don't have a script.
I might have some questions that.
That I have in mind, but we'reoff and running and I'm.

(28:43):
I'm just listening and I. I'llask a question based on where that
conversation goes.
So I hope it comes off as a.
Just a path of two friendssupporting each other.
Yeah.
How'd you come up with the name?
Because that vibe of whatyou're saying totally sounds like
a window seal kind of conversation.
Like, you're like, I don'tknow where this is going, but we're.

(29:04):
We're going another.
Like, I thought it would takeforever for me to find the music
for my podcast, and of courseI didn't want to pay for it.
I was like, what are tunesthat are, you know, open source,
that are.
Whatever you call it, youknow, like, license.
License free.
So I quickly was like, well, no.

(29:26):
And I found a tune.
It was late at night, and Ifound this little cool little tip
that is my still, my song, andit was in Euros, and it was just
a blip of it.
And I was like, oh, I wishthere was just a little bit more
or just a little bit moreinstrumental, but I really like the
words that they use.

(29:47):
Come into my windowsill.
Listen, let's spin somerecords and catch up.
And I googled them, and itturns out they were with a music
group that makes things forcommercials and podcasts in Portland,
Oregon, not in, you know,Poland, where I thought they might.
Oh, wow.
You're like, what?
It's a very affordable license.

(30:08):
I think I pay $100 a year touse that song.
And it says, come sit in mysunny windowsill.
So I was talking to a friend,another business mentor, and I said,
I need to come up with a nameof it.
And she's like, well, I lovethat song.
Why don't you call itWindowsill Chats?
And I was like, that's brilliant.
I will.
Oh, I love that.
That is so cool.
I would never.

(30:29):
Yeah, man.
That.
I would never have thoughtthat that's how it came up.
I was like.
When I was listening to When IFound you, I was like, man, that's
such a cool name.
How did she come up with that name?
It's from the song, and it was cute.
It was very cute because thetwo guys that wrote it are cousins
and they have a different name now.
But on my hundredth episode, Iwas like, I wanna.

(30:50):
I wanna see what they're doingand reach out to these guys and see
if they'll come on the podcast.
So I sent them a dm andthey're like, what?
Like.
And they.
They're in la and.
And the Cheap Hotels is whatthey're called now.
And the music is not like that.
But they just had released a new.
It was just the.

(31:10):
They're the key, honest thing.
And I just was like, y', all,you have no idea.
But a lot of people reallylike this little ditty that you wrote.
I love that.
I think when I listen to yourconversations, Margo, I always think
that you have known thesepeople, like, forever.
Like, it comes across like that.

(31:31):
Even when we had aconversation, I was like, I feel
like I talked to her, like, alot before this conversation.
Like, it feels so.
So natural.
Do you think that's a.
A skill you've developed afterhaving, like, just being around,
or that's just, like, part of Margo?
Like, this is how I am.
I walk in a space, and peoplefeel comfortable to talk to me.

(31:52):
Well, thanks.
That's a big compliment.
I would say.
If I was walking into a space,it would not.
I would.
There's something reallycomforting about a screen and not
a room full of people.
For me, I'm a right on the middle.
Introvert, extrovert rightdown the line.
So I'm not the one that's like.
But if I can get one on onewith somebody, I really like that.

(32:15):
And my mom always used to say,you know, if you're at a dinner party
or whatever, sitting next tosomebody, always ask, tell me about
you, and you will never have apause in your conversations.
I was like, okay.
So I just really.
I don't know.
I'm fascinated by people.
But it's easy because I'veasked you a couple of questions,
just, like, what you're aboutenough for me to be curious, and

(32:38):
I take it from there.
So how do you choose who'sgoing to be on the show?
Because that's kind of Cool.
I had a lot of great friendsthat said yes, and a lot of artists
that I talked to in the beginning.
And I have a few that comeback maybe quarterly or a couple
times a year that peoplereally are interested in hearing

(32:58):
from.
But it's cut now.
I get.
And I have a place on mywebsite, margotanto.com if somebody
wants to recommend somebody Ihave in my Instagram, I say, I have,
like, over 200 people savedthat I'd love to talk to, but I get
so many emails from agents and people.
And I love.

(33:19):
Sometimes it's just like, what?
What?
You're obviously not paying attention.
No, thank you.
Yeah.
Does not resonate.
But for instance, I. I'vegotten some filmmakers recently.
I know.
I listened to that episodethat you just did recently that was.
Oh, I can't remember at the.
At the moment.

(33:39):
It was on my notes, and Ican't find it, but I was like, how
did she get them on the show?
The guy that did Hugo, thatwrote the book?
Yes, yes.
The woman, Annie Atkins, whodid all the props and stuff for the
Wes Anderson.
Several Wes Anderson movies.
I was like, what?
Yes.

(34:02):
I don't know.
People just come on.
And I love that.
It enables my guests to bemore diverse.
Color, male, female, non binary.
They might be swimmers, theymight be painters, they might be
movie makers.
Like, I'm just.
I'm so fascinated by whatcreativity means to people.

(34:22):
And I feel like it shows up inso many different ways in all of
us that did it for me.
What does creativity mean to you?
I think it shows up in acouple ways.
I think it's feeling the callto do something that might not be
super by the book.

(34:42):
Like, maybe you're anaccountant, but you love to play
the clarinet.
Or.
I used to tell my friend whowas a haircutter for years when I
lived where near her, she usedto cut my hair.
I'm like, so creative.
Hello.
You are sculpting on somebodyevery day.
You know, and sometimes I feellike if you're sweeping up after
the kids at school, like,you're picking a pattern.

(35:06):
Are you sweeping that way?
Are you sweeping this way?
Like, what are you thinking about?
What are you listening to?
I just.
I feel like we all have it.
How does it show up?
How does it show up for you?
And do you even care?
Or are you hiding it?
Are you passionate aboutsomething you wish you could do?
I love those stories of peoplewho say.
And it comes up over and over again.
I went to school for thisbecause my parents wanted me to be

(35:28):
an X, Y or Z because that's,you know, they came from the old
country and they.
I had to be in this.
And now I'm creative and nowit was always a whisper to me.
And I feel like too, forsomebody with chronic illness or
somebody who has a bunch ofkids or somebody who or is a caregiver,
like it's a release too.
It's so much so often theplace we find our.

(35:51):
We can take a breath.
When I really get in the zoneof creating something, I.
It's like a big release, youknow, it's like massage without.
Without anybody else there.
That is really interesting.
I love.
I believe that.
I believe that so much thateveryone is creative in some way,
shape or form.
I feel like we were designedto be creative.

(36:13):
I feel like this planet thatwe live on is an excellent example
of how we are creative andeverything is meant to be created
in a way, like to be seen andto nurture.
And creativity just adds to that.
I'm curious, while you've beenlistening to everybody else's creative
journeys, like, what have youlearned about yourself when it comes

(36:37):
to like viewing yourself with creativity?
I think the overalloverarching thing is just do it.
Sometimes I'll say if you haveone tip or we've talked about it
along the way, it's like, justgo after that thing that's calling
to you.
Just start the blah, blah, blah.
Just send out the mailer, justpress go on the website.

(36:59):
Whatever it is, just do it.
Say yes to your dream.
Say yes to yourself.
Say yes to possibility.
Is it hard, do you think, forlike a really creative person to
take that leap if they'venever taken that leap before?
Sure.
It's scary.
It's like, what.
What's going to happen?
What's going to happen on theother side of just saying yes, you

(37:21):
know, who's going to be there.
I might be judged, it mightnot work.
Nobody might show up.
You know, somebody I rememberhearing, you know, if you have 5
followers, you're influencing5 people.
5 people have chosen to saythey want to know more about what
you're putting out into the world.
You know, it is tricky,especially when you're.

(37:42):
It feels like your baby,you've been building this thing or
trying this thing.
You know, I'm about to launchfor a while.
I'm super about because again,I gave myself finally a deadline
and my licensing agencywebsite and it's a huge deal for
me.
You know, it feels like to me,the culmination of all the things

(38:03):
And I want to make sureeverybody likes it.
But, you know, you don'talways know until you do it, because
you're the only one judging it.
Yeah.
Is the licensing, like, basedon your creative awesomeness and
your licensing allowing otherpeople to use it?
Is that what you mean?
Or an agency where you'rehelping other people do that?

(38:23):
I'm helping other people.
I have several wonderfulartists that I am helping get their
art out into the world in away that I am acting as their mentor.
So I'm working directly with them.
Not that they need it, butit's fun to kind of, like, sometimes
we stagnate.
We, like, how can I do this?

(38:44):
I'd love my product on this.
So it's me kind of helpingshape this beautiful team of artists.
And then I know so much aboutkind of the industry.
It's hopefully showing up as a.
As somebody fairly refreshingfor people who are looking for work
or developing any number ofthings, because I already speak that

(39:07):
language as well.
So it's putting it all together.
So that's so cool.
But it's interesting becausethat seems like that's like.
That is the culmination ofeverything you've kind of already
been doing.
And yet it feels like.
I don't know if this is gonna work.
Is it because it's in the formor is it because it's so open?
It's not kind of like underthe covers, if you will?

(39:28):
Yeah.
It's my name on it.
Right.
And 28 people are.
Their earnings are dependenton how I show up for them, you know,
not to mention doing right forthe companies.
But that's.
That's easier, you know?
But I think it's just, whatare people expecting?
Which is silly because we putthat on ourselves.

(39:50):
Right.
What do you think people are expecting?
Like, I don't know.
They're expecting you to getthe website open, Margo.
That's not what they're expecting.
Is it open?
Can we press on the button?
Yes.
By the time this is live, itwill be well open.
And I will have shown at theInternational Licensing Expo in London,
doing that in October.
So, yes, it's Tanto Studio.

(40:11):
And it's.
I'm very proud of it and I'mvery excited because I can do this
until I can no longer lift a finger.
Wow.
I would be curious to ask you,since it's kind of new and it's got
your name on it, like, whatthings came up for you that surprised
you in this process of puttingthis new out in the world that you're
like, whoop.
I didn't expect myself toexperience that or think that or

(40:33):
feel that.
Well, it was kind ofinteresting how it came to be.
So I started teaching onlinein 24.
It's all tied together, so younever know where these things are
going to go.
I started teaching with thiswonderful friend, Lilla Rogers, and
we decided she had alreadystarted her platform, Make Art that
Sells.
And I came to her and it wasall about, like, lila, you're showing.

(40:56):
She was an agent for 30 years,and she had the creme de la creme
of artists.
And I would always go to herbooth first at the licensing show,
and we would have this conversation.
I was like, if you could justget your artists to think dimensionally
and show things dimensionally,I think you could sell even more
of this product.
And she would be like, what doyou mean?

(41:18):
And so we developed this classtogether, and now it's Evergreen
on her site.
And so I.
All along the way in mycareer, I've come across some such
talented people, and I'vethought about being an agent.
As a matter of fact, way backin 2012, before we ever talked together,
I remember calling her andsaying, I'm thinking about.

(41:40):
I was in between jobs, and Isaid, I'm thinking about being an
agent, and I think you're myonly competition.
I love that.
Calling your competition andadmitting I don't.
Know, by the way.
And she was so gracious, andshe said, you know, it's a big pool.
Come on in.
It's a big pie.
But there's a lot of paperwork.
And I remember thinking like,oh, I don't know about that.

(42:02):
And then I quickly,interestingly, got a job that I.
That was great.
So I didn't do that.
And I felt like I had a lot ofcontacts, but I wasn't busy nurturing
those.
Who were the book publishers?
Who are the buyers at Anthropology?
I knew some, but, you know,who are the people I don't know that
I would need to know.
And, you know, without goinginto all the detail, I started a

(42:24):
membership after the podcastwas going after I didn't have this
job anymore, which I love,because I. I can pour into a lot
of artists there.
But a year ago almost, sheannounced that she was closing our
agency.
And I was like, what?
Like, that's like Sears closing.
You never expect it.
And I picked up the phone, which.
What?
We don't do that anymore.

(42:45):
I picked up the phone,firstly, to make sure she was okay.
And that day, that morning,because I thought I had this Talk
about following your gut.
I was like, like, what doesthis mean?
You know, I feel like theuniverse is saying, have a conversation.
And she said, I don't haveanybody to take it over.
My agent, my main agent has.

(43:05):
Is retiring.
Are you interested?
And so what I ended up doingin the most beautiful way, was inheriting
her agency.
In my mind, it was the best one.
And so I have the innerworkings of that and some of her
artists and some of my own,because I don't, again, want to copy

(43:28):
somebody else.
But it was just you all.
Like, sometimes all the thingsadd up and they're just meant to
be.
You just have to listen andbeautiful things just come to be.
That is such an awesome story, Margo.
I feel like there's so much inthere, like, just in that alone,

(43:48):
in the power of connection,the power of community, and the power
of vulnerability.
Like, there's so many thingsin that story alone that's like,
whoa, time and patience.
Like, there's so much therethat's such a cool thing to hear.
And her to feel comfortablewith you.

(44:08):
Being like, yeah, a huge honorfor me.
Yeah, that is amazing.
We kind of been like.
It's funny how thisconversation, again, how this conversation
is kind of making its ownlittle pathway for those of us listening,
which is like, you never knowwhere you're gonna go and how these
things connect.
Right.
How they actually will work inyour favor.

(44:30):
I think in a world where weoften are told that you have to,
like, changing your mind orshifting or following your gut in
some way, shape or form.
Especially when I think whenit comes to creativity and business,
it's like, oh, no, you can'tdo it that way.
Don't do it that way.
Because it's not the perfectway of getting it.
There's this pathway.

(44:51):
You're supposed to be goingthis one way that they say is the
only way that you can get tothis destination.
Are your funnels set up?
Have you taken.
Right, right.
And then you're like.
And then sometimes.
And a lot of times I thinkit's more than sometimes.
You don't do it the cookiecutter way.
And it still works.
Yes, and it still works.

(45:12):
And it's not cookie cutter.
How refreshing, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because at the end of the day,I'm not the only agency out there,
and I have many friends withagencies because I, as an art director,
have used them over and overand over again.
So I am honored to be next them.

(45:33):
And I certainly don't want toshow up like they are because they're
already showing up that way.
So how do I honor the artiststhat I'm representing?
The space and the potential?
You know, it's something I'mnot just doing for myself.
Yeah.
When you say you don't want tolike, you don't want to look like
or be like other people, howdo you think you'll maintain that

(45:55):
value of being like, I'm goingto be uniquely me.
And I say this with all of thecontext and only because I know so
many creative entrepreneurs,especially in the AI I'm bringing
this up because it's justgoing to be relevant.
How do you think that is goingto look in the scape and the scope
of the world when it comes tobeing unique in this space with.

(46:19):
We will be continually challenged.
There's.
It's not on the tip of mytongue, the company, but there's
a new company, new AI company,Newish, where you pot put all your
brand assets in there and say,make me a marketing plan visually
and everything.
And they.
They do.
I think it's important to notturn a blind eye, but to educate

(46:44):
ourselves.
Don't say it's horrible.
Say, how's it here?
And what.
How do I want to educatemyself, as I said, and how do I want
to speak about this?
I'm maybe more worried for theenvironment than I am even for our
jobs, although equally so.
But there are still.

(47:05):
My son is 17 and he could write.
He could way lean into AIespecially as he's writing papers
and applying to colleges and stuff.
And he's like, I will not, Mom.
I will not.
I don't like it.
I don't like what it does tothe environment.
I was like, right on.
I think it's important to stay educated.
And there's new things every day.
So there, there's.

(47:27):
How can you use it to for good?
How can you understand how itcannot be good?
I don't know if you've heardof the AI influencer that has 165,000
followers now.
And she's fake.
I've seen people talking aboutthe influencer.
I think I've seen other, like,coaches talk about this influencer.

(47:48):
That's an AI influencer.
And I haven't gone to look forit because in my bones I'm like,
I have no desire to watch afake person fake.
Somebody sent me a screenshotof it and I'm like, well, that's
enough.
When I look at that screenshotand I look at the pictures, I can
tell it's AI but how long willit be before I can.
It's just important to talkabout it.
I have a feature on my podcastevery couple of weeks where I get

(48:11):
on with my friend Abby,updates with Abby, and we talk about
relevant things in the newsand AIs in there and whatever, you
know, fun or concerning orinteresting thing comes up just to
kind of keep ourselves andother people aware.
But I think, you know, at somepoint cars came along and everybody

(48:32):
with a horse was like, what doI, what the heck?
Everybody with the horse waslike, what the heck?
I don't know, I wasn't there.
But I just love thatillustration is so real.
Oh, I mean there's all thesethings, you know, it's like, what

(48:52):
am I going to do withPhotoshop, what that's going to take
away from my hand drawing?
And you know, we adapt and we,we make it work.
And I'm actually consideringhaving somebody in the agency and
artist wise who works with alittle bit of AI for two reasons.
To have somebody that's supermindful about it and doing it with

(49:14):
her own creativity in a verycreative way.
And B, to for all those peoplelooking for it to say, well, this
is possible.
Let me, but let me show youwhat else is possible because you
can't, you can only be ascreative as your prompts, you know,
And I was very buoyed by thefact that the last big licensing

(49:35):
show in Las Vegas last May,some big players there said the clients
they were talking to werelike, no, we're not interested in
using AI for these ads andthese products and things.
Certainly it's showing up incertain places.
But, you know, I think we'regoing to see some peaks in some areas.
Some areas will keep using it.
Some maybe not so much.

(49:57):
Yeah, I think creativity hasalways been like technology, technical.
I can't think of the word.
It's probably not a word.
That's why I can't say hasbeen technologized.
It's totally not a word, Nikita.
But I think creativity ingeneral has been in some ways with

(50:19):
technology has constantly beentapped at, redefined, red everything.
And yet we still have paper,yet we still have some aspects of,
of that very tangible realnessthat we all like really want to have.
Because as great as technologyis going to be and it's helpful in

(50:41):
some ways and obviously it'sharmful in others.
It has its limits, even whenit thinks it doesn't have its limits.
And that's the fact that it'snot human.
You know, it's like it's not human.
And I do think to your point,it's so important to, like, just
not ignore it.
It's just like, you know,photographer who was like, I'm only
a film photographer.
And ignore that.
There's DSLR now, and now, youknow, there's mirrorless cameras

(51:03):
and all of these things.
But it didn't take away thatthe film.
I still love me a good film photo.
I love a good film everything.
Right.
So I do think it's just aboutto your point, having the space for
both, because it doesn't haveto be this or it could be this.
And I think you'll find yourpeople where your people are.
You know, it's interestingtoo, to have a teenager because,

(51:25):
you know, discs, records,albums to cassettes to CDs, to, you
know, just on the Internet, heand his friends are all collecting
cassettes.
He's like, mom, the sound quality.
Cassettes, cassettes.

(51:46):
Not.
Not vinyl cassettes.
A vintage Walkman.
Oh, my gosh.
Annie will not wear new clothes.
It's all vintage, but vintage.
I love it.
So it's so interesting.
We don't know what people aregoing to be interested or influenced
by, or do they want to hold onto it for some reason, or do they
take that and then creativelydigitize that in a whole new way?

(52:10):
I don't know.
That's so interesting.
Yeah.
I want to switch gears realquick as we kind of come into this
towards the end.
But your experience, theexperiences of others that you've
heard in the creative space,what has really resonated with you

(52:31):
when you hear people who aremanaging life lifing, whether that's,
you know, chronic health,limiting circumstances, you know,
we also can't forget, youknow, the idea, you know, we have
the narrative, the starvingartist life.
What is.
Has been some.
A big thing that has reallyresonated with you as a business

(52:53):
owner, as a mentor to othercreatives that you carry and you
continue to like champion.
I am humbled by, impressed by,empowered by the fact that I'm reminded
of our impermanence.
I guess one word, one way tosay it, or the like, you just don't

(53:16):
know.
Right?
You just don't know.
You can go along in a certainway, thinking your health is fine,
thinking you're gonna haveyour parents until they're old, thinking
you're gonna have the same jobforever because your boss loves you.
And all of those things canchange in an instant.
And I think it's seeing.

(53:38):
Realizing that and seeing whatpeople do around that.
And I don't mean they have torun a marathon with one leg or anything
like that.
It's just like what speaks toeach person personally and how are
they managing it?
Because the older we get, it'slike, oh my gosh, that person that
was like the top athlete andhas always achieved, achieved, achieved

(54:00):
is now saying, I, you know, Ihave these allergies or I my hip,
I can't do it the way I used to.
And, and you like theiridentity needs to change around that
or needs to evolve or art wiseor job wise or grief or whatever
comes our way.
And I think it's being adaptable.

(54:23):
Nikita, you for example, like,I love that you started this.
One of the reasons you startedthis podcast was to have an outlet
for yourself, have a showother people what they can could
do.
It's just realizing thehumanness of us all and not trying
to look like a fakeinfluencer, but look like, I mean

(54:45):
it's the true stories thatinterest me the most of, of anybody.
And I think the vulnerabilityaround that is the most refreshing
thing.
Yeah, such good point.
I think I've learned the same thing.
We all.
What's on the surface isliterally just the surface.
There's so much it.

(55:05):
All right, well, runs deep.
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Well, if someone's listeningto this and they're like, margo,
you sound cool.
I love what you put down.
Can't wait to hear about youragency and all of that jazz.
How can they connect with you and.
Where can they find you?
Thanks.
Well, my podcast is Windowsill Chats.

(55:27):
So all the places you canlisten to a podcast, Windowsill Chats.
And it's about the creative,twisty, turny paths we're all on.
And I have a membership for.
I wanted a membership that hada low barrier of entry.
You didn't have to take acertain class, you didn't have to
have certain abilities.
You just wanted to hang outwith maybe like minded cool people.

(55:49):
So there's that it's calledthe Foundry and all of that.
What I the podcast theFoundry, various and sundry other
things are on my websitecalled margotantau.com T A N T A
U Margo M A R G O and then thestudio, the agency is called Tantau,
which is my last name,tantaustudio.com I'm all over the

(56:10):
Instagram.
Windowsill Chats has anInstagram, Tanto Studio has an Instagram
and Mtanto has an Instagramwhich all connect to each other.
And I'm supposed to belearning TikTok because I'm taking
a class from a very close.
You're supposed to be.
I'm the only one.
You're like, I'm supposed to.

(56:31):
But I'm not there yet.
One thing at a time.
TikTok is probably the easiestthing, but I feel like I've kind
of switched into the Instagram world.
I took the class, I reallylike this gal Kenya, who teaches
it, and I thought I could useit for reels instead of do you like

(56:51):
it?
Do you like TikTok?
I do.
I do like TikTok.
It feels less.
Not that Instagram is stuffy,because it's really not, but it's
very specific the way you haveto show up, quote unquote, for things
to actually work the way youwant it to work.
And TikTok isn't like that.
So that's what I like about itso far.

(57:12):
But that's a whole episodethat I'll have to have about just
talking about the two of thosespaces before we go.
I've been asking this questionto everyone before they leave, which
is related to your business specifically.
What's one thing that youthought was true when you started
your business or manybusinesses that you no longer believe

(57:33):
is true?
It has to be perfect to start.
As a matter of fact, I thinkthe opposite is true.
The only way you're reallygoing to know what people want is
to get the gritty side outthere and just do it.
It really doesn't have to beperfect because you're going to want

(57:55):
to change it and evolve withit anyway.
So I'm forever inspired bypeople who just put themselves out
there.
And if you're wanting to trysomething, I highly encourage you
to find a way to do so.
I love that.
Never know what will happen.
That's a good point.
Well, thank you again, Margo,for your time and sharing a little

(58:17):
bit of it with me and with therest of us.
Thank you so much.
Oh, I wish we could hang outway more often.
Nikita.
Thanks for having me.
We have to figure out how wemake this happen, but yes, I agree.
All right, love, I will seeyou soon.
And thank you again.
Thank you for having me.
You're the best and I superappreciate you.

(58:41):
That's a wrap for this episodeof Business with Chronic Illness.
If you would like to start and.
Grow an online coachingbusiness with me, head to the Show
Notes to click.
A link to book a sales call.
And learn how to make moneywith chronic illness.
You can also check out ourwebsite at www.CraftedToThrive.com.com
for this episode's show notesand join our email list to get exclusive
content where I coach you onhow to chronically grow a profitable

(59:05):
business while living withchronic illness.
Until next time, remember,yes, you are crafted to thrive.