Setting Health-First Boundaries to Grow a Sustainable Business with Chronic Illness | Brenda Snow - Business With Chronic Illness: CEO Women For Sustainable Growth and Burnout Support

Episode Transcript
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Nikita Williams (00:00):
You know what stops most of us from building the

(00:02):
businesses we actually really want.
It's not a lack of skill, whichmany of us believe is our problem.
It's not a lack of experience, whichmany of us believe is our problem.
It's the belief that we need to beextraordinary and know everything
just to keep up and to create results.
And when you're living with chronicillness, the pressure becomes almost
suffocating because of our internaldialogue, the noise that we receive from

(00:25):
the outside world, the conditioning.
In this episode, our guest, BrendaSnow, built a business for 30 years.
She scaled it to over 400 employees, andshe successfully exited that company.
All while managing Ms.
Multiple sclerosis.
And when I asked her how shedid it, she says something
that stopped me in my tracks.
You don't need to doanything extraordinary.
She says, just living with chronicillness in itself is extraordinary.

(00:49):
And this, this conversation, Brendawalks us through the real journey.
The grief, the anger, the acceptancethat keeps cycling back and
forth, the boundaries she hadto set that felt uncomfortable.
At first.
I can totally re relate to this, and theway she had to give herself permission
to work differently, not harder.
She shares the exact moment she realizedI always hired to my weaknesses.

(01:10):
If there was something I wasn'tgood at, I found somebody who was,
and she talks about something.
We don't discuss enough how vulnerabilityis in a weakness in business.
It's actually what buildsthe strongest teams.
If you've ever felt like you're constantlystarting over after a flare up, if you've
been told you need to hustle harderor be more quote unquote, consistent.
If you're worried that settingboundaries means losing clients or even

(01:30):
your credibility, this conversationis going to shift something for you.
Because Brenda didn't build a sustainablebusiness by being super human.
She built it by being human, by settinghealth first boundaries, by being honest
about what she needed, and by provingthat you can grow a business that
works with your body, not against it.
And if this conversation resonates withyou, Brenda has also written the Amazon

(01:51):
bestselling Diagnose, the Essential Guideto Navigating the Patient Journey, where
she mapped out the emotional journeynearly every patient goes through.
And how to find hope, rebuild, and createimpact after a life changing diagnosis.
So stay tuned as we get into it.

Brenda Snow (02:05):
Just starting a business, you know, that's, that's,
that's like an outlier statistic.
It's a lot of things.
I mean, I had good luck.
I met the right people at the right time.
I had a good idea, but you don'tneed to do anything extraordinary,
just living with a chronic illness.
In and of itself is extraordinary.

Welcome to Business with Chronic Illness, the Globally
Ranked podcast for women livingwith chronic illness who want to
start and grow a business online.
I'm your host, Nikita Williams and Iwent from living a normal life to all
of a sudden being in constant painwith no answers to being diagnosed
with multiple chronic illnesses.
And trying to make a livable income.
I faced the challenge of adaptingtraditional business advice to fit

(02:54):
my unique circumstances with chronicillness, feeling frustrated and
more burned out than I already waswhile managing my chronic illness to
becoming an award-winning coach, or theflexible, sustainable online coaching
business, I found the surprisinglysimple steps to starting and growing
a profitable business withoutcompromising my health or my peace.

(03:15):
Since then, I've helped dozens of womenjust like you learn how to do the same.
If you're ready to create a thrivingbusiness that aligns with your lifestyle
and wellbeing, you are in the right place.
Together, we're shifting the narrativeof what's possible for women with
chronic illness and how we make a living.
This is business with chronic illness.

(03:41):
I am really excited to haveBrenda Snow on the show.
We are going to talk aboutbusiness and life and her new book,
diagnose The Essential Guide toNavigating The Patient Journey.
When I saw that episode, Brenda, I meanthat title of your book I was like.

(04:02):
Where was this?
Back in 2000 and like, I feellike back in 2009 when I first
got diagnosed with one of my firstchronic illnesses, I was like, whoa.
There wasn't a book.
There wasn't a pamphlet.
No, there was a diagnosis.
And see you later.
Here's some medication.
You're good.
Right, exactly.
So please tell us a little bit about you.

(04:24):
Like how would youdescribe yourself today?
And we'll get into more about you.

Great.
Well, perfect.
Thanks Nikita for having me.
Like you said, my name is Brenda Snowand I'm a person that's been living with
multiple sclerosis for three decadesnow, so that has its own challenges.
Anybody, even if your diagnosis isn't ms,you know, if it's any of these chronic
conditions that just never go away.

(04:50):
Mm-hmm.
It's challenging.
So three decades.
Really because I was diagnosed with anillness, it started my journey to become
an entrepreneur and a business woman.
And I've founded my main company,but a few other things over the
course of the last three decadesin business, which has been.
An incredible journey, and I knowsomething you're passionate about.

(05:12):
Yeah.
Women in business.
Me too.
But especially being somebodyliving with a chronic condition.
Mm-hmm.
And then recently I became apublished author this March of 2025.
That's the year I think, right?
Yeah.
No,

Speaker 3 (05:27):
no.

And exactly what you said.
It's the book that I wish that I had had.
You know, when I was diagnosedand in my journey of working
and dealing with patients overthe last, you know, many years.
It's something people havealways asked for advice about.
Mm.
So when COVID came, I thought,let's take a stab at this.

(05:50):
I didn't know anything about writinga book, but have learned a lot.
So that's a little bit about me.
I'm, you know, I love my, some ofmy hobbies are, besides reading,
I like art and travel and so yeah.
And try to maintain a positiveoutlook in spite of it all.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean.
First and foremost, I always liketo say to anyone who comes up a show
who's like, yeah, I'm an entrepreneurand an author, and we list off all
of these things, and they're like,oh, we also have chronic illness.
It's like such an oxymoron.
It's almost like, yeah, the twoworlds shouldn't coexist, but

mm-hmm.

I am curious to know, as you've ventured over this, over
three decades of living with mm-hmm.
Chronic illness and livingwith multiple sclerosis.
How would you break down likethe emotional journey of living
with chronic illness and buildingan empire like in its own space?

(06:47):
Right?
Yeah.
How has that looked like for you?

Hard,
yes.
Tiring.
Let's, yes.
The joy of my life, you know?
So I think.
I think what I also wanna tellpeople, because you know, I've
gotten and received a lot of positivefeedback and props for building a
business in spite of being sick.

(07:10):
And I'm very flattered bythat, and I'm very humbled.
But I also like to add the caveat to itthat, you know, this should not be the
aspirational goal for everybody, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like I want people tofeel really at peace.
At where they're at in their chronicillness, because these stages change.

(07:31):
You know?
It is.
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
I mean, that's kind of anoverused term, but I would never
want anybody to feel less than.

Yeah,

because they didn't start a business or do something with
their chronic illness because just.
Starting a business, you know, that's,that's, that's like an outlier statistic.
Mm-hmm.
It's a lot of things.
I mean, I had good luck.
I met the right people at the right time.
I had a good idea, but you don'tneed to do anything extraordinary.

(08:02):
Just living with a chronic illnessin and of itself is extraordinary.
Yeah.
So I really want people to.
Take a deep breath and patthemselves on the back because life
can throw a lot of stuff at you.
Just the fact that you're getting onwith getting on is amazing, really,

truly.
Absolutely.
And I, and I really feel that way.
It really is true.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree with you.
This is not for everybody,like it's just kind of like.
I'm sure, and I, I know looking at thepremise of your book and looking at
that, you really talk about the journeyfrom the patient's point of view.
It's not a memoir, it's notnecessarily like your story, it's

(08:40):
more about a collective of storiesof what that looks like, right?
Yeah.
And.
I really align with that with theshow myself because it's like, yes,
this is about business with chronicillness, because some people have
decided I have more power in my handswhen I have more control of my time,
my flexibility and all of that stuff.
Hundred percent living withchronic illness and making money.
Right.
And also it looks different inevery person I talk to, and it's

(09:05):
just like chronic illness, like ourjourneys are unique yet the same.
Yeah.
And so for you and your experience.
First of all, just livingwith chronic illness yourself.

Yeah.

How have you found similarities and also
challenges when you're looking atother patients and their journey?
How has that affected youroutlook, your perspective?

Yeah.
Well, I think, you know, I mean, earlyon with my ms, you know, the first
three years were really debilitating,

Speaker 4 (09:38):
you know,

largely wheelchair bound and dependent on an, you
know, an aid to ambulate, and Ireally wasn't even necessarily.
Thinking about working again, I frankly,I had no idea how I was going to do that.
As I started to get better and realizedthat I was a 30-year-old with a 5-year-old

(10:02):
and at some point had a long life aheadof me and no way to pay the bills, that
was when sort of the first seeds of whatcould it look like and what could it be?
And you know, again, for me.
I was very passionate about thestate of healthcare and the state

(10:25):
of chronic care, so I will neverforget the year I turned 30.
I was living in a long-termrehabilitation center.
Everybody in there was overthe age of 75 with end stage
neurological conditions and.
I just thought to myself, wow, youknow, how am I gonna define my life?

(10:50):
Like, how, what am I going todo for the rest of my life?
And seeing nobody that looked likeme, seeing nobody that had ms,
nobody that was 30 years old wasreally where this seed got planted.
Like Prego, pre-chat rooms oflike, how do you have the power?

(11:10):
A first person narrative storytelling.
How do we get people togetherthat have chronic conditions
to sort of lift each other up?
And that was sort of the genesisof what became Snow Companies.
And we worked in the biotechnologyspace because also on my journey, I
came to realize that while researchand development in pharmaceuticals and

(11:31):
therapeutics is amazing, mm, they couldprobably show up a little bit differently.
For patients.
And so I couldn't believe that, you know,I was gonna have to take a medication
potentially for the rest of my life.
And it's like you said before westarted recording, you know, they
didn't even hand you a pamphlet.
You know, you got, you'rediagnosed with this and good luck.
Yeah.

(11:52):
So that was kind of the same thing.
I had no idea how to manage the sideeffects or what was gonna happen to me.
I mean, everything about me had changed.
I call it, you know,an identity earthquake.
I didn't look the same.
I didn't think the same.
I didn't feel the same.
And nobody around meknew how to act either.
Yeah.
You know, there is stuff inthis book for care partners
because your world is rocked.

(12:14):
Mm-hmm.
So I think.
What you learn as you live witha, a life changing condition is
how to sort of handle the seasons,the ups and downs, the detours.
Yeah.
Better, differently, more proactively.
But again, it takes some time.

(12:35):
What I'm able to do now when I havea hiccup is very different than how
I felt emotionally and physicallyand mentally prepared 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah.

So again, people have to just give themselves some grace.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yes.
You know, that's such a powerfulpoint to the perspective of
there is no one and done fixing.
Like there's not a really a fix.
You know?
I know some of us.
Compare ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
Look at other and be like, man, she doesthat thing, or she's doing that thing
while she's living with chronic illness.
I often get in my dms personally, like,Nikita, how are you doing all of this?

(13:14):
Yeah.
And I always, I'm like in the bed crying.
I'm like saying, I'mlike, I'm not doing it.
The social media, and I think for me,and I'm sure for you, Brenda, when
you first started this journey, likesocial media wasn't necessarily a thing.
No.
No.
Right?

Speaker 5 (13:30):
No, no.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
How has the visibility of chronic illness become so different
from when you began snow companies anddealing with your own challenges with
your chronic illness, like transformbetween now and between then and now?

That's great.
Well, it's a wonderful question, andI feel like we're still in its infancy
of getting rid of the disgrace, theshame, the stigma around chronic illness
or life changing illness, frankly.
It annoys the heck outta methat, you know, people do

(14:08):
make a judgment against you.
The stories Nikita, and I'm confidentyou've heard them too, over the decades
I've been doing patient work of people.
You know, losing their job that's illegal.
Mm-hmm.
You know, getting terminated from it.
Getting canceled from their insurance,not being allowed insurance, not having
access to Medicaid, Medicare, you know,so, long-term disability benefits, you

(14:32):
know, can't have access to a physician,underserved patient populations.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, all this stuff isreal and it's bloody hard.
Mm-hmm.
It's really hard.
And when you are sick.
And you don't feel good.
It's almost darn near impossible.
Mm-hmm.
To navigate.
I talk about this in the book, but why Ilike that more people are speaking out.

(14:54):
Why I like that there's these podcastsand there's social media, and in the
field of ms, you've got people likeChristina Applegate and Selma Blair.
Mm-hmm.
You know, coming outand owning it, I mean.
I remember there was a time wherenobody of a person of visibility

Speaker 4 (15:10):
mm-hmm.
Would

share that they have anything.
And I was even early on told to hide it.
Mm-hmm.
And anybody that knowsme knows, like, I'm me.
What you see is what you get.
Yes.
All the time.
Every time I'm, I've always been myauthentic self and I sat there looking
like this advice person at three heads.
It's like, what do you meanI wouldn't tell anybody?
Right.
But they said, well, you, you'll risk.

(15:32):
Being basically, you know, beforethe term was a term canceled.
Mm-hmm.
And, but I went, go againstthe grain, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's, again,one of the things I feel very
proud to do is hopefully haveinspired other people to say.
You know, there is nothing wrong andI did not do anything to deserve this.
Don't feel guilty.
You didn't do anything, deserve it.

(15:53):
Your family didn't doanything to deserve it.
Mm-hmm.
To the contrary, I like to say thatwhen you live with one of these terrible
things, it means you're extra special.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yes.
And creative and amazing andabsolutely all those different things.
Right.

Hundred percent girl.
Yes.
That's what I think.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
And you, and you talk about.
In, in the book about the phases.
Mm-hmm.
I have, so I don't know if you'veheard me talk about this or if
you've listened to this show.
Yeah.
But I have an idea of, I, I callit three phases, and this is
just my like very drilled downfundamentals of what I feel like Yeah.
Especially those of us livingwith chronic illness go through,

(16:34):
because I personally went throughmy own journey with that, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so I call it like the newbiephase of like, you don't know
what's going on with your life.
Yep.
Yep.
You just know you woke up oneday, likely you had a normal
life, and then all of a sudden youdidn't, and you're like, correct.
What the heck is going on?
Yep.
So that can happen for years.
And a part of your journey has beenlike you were misdiagnosed, believed,

(16:58):
didn't know what was happening.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and then you get to an.
An awareness, I guessa diagnosis in a way.
Yeah.
And then you're kind of like inthis phase of like, okay, now what?
What is my life?
Mm-hmm.
I call this like mm-hmm.
The awareness haze.
Like what are we doing?
Yeah.
What's happening?
Right.
It's a good one.
Yeah.
And then I call the last phase,which really is never a last.

(17:20):
Right.
It's the OG phase where you know,you'll just keep repeating those
two faces over and over again.
Yeah,

exactly.
Exactly.
So repetition.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Right.
And so I'm curious, you talk about theemotional phases, the emotional journey of
those of us living with chronic illness.
Yeah.
I'd love for you to share a bitabout what did that look like
in your own personal journey?

That's great.
Well, I love your three phases andI think they fit perfectly into
the way that I see it as well.
So, you know, in the book the chaptersare, are, are set up exactly like this.
And in that, you know, I start off inthis pre-diagnosis phase because so
many people know there's something goingon with them, there's something wrong.

(18:05):
And I've seen sort of two things happen.
The denial card.
Mm.
And I, and I like to say,we're not talking about the,
you know, the river in Egypt.
Right.
It's not the, yeah.
Okay.
So, so the denial where it'slike, I'm just overtired.
Mm.
It's because I didn't eat right yesterday.
So.
'cause you don't really, it's scaryto be like, what could be going on.

(18:27):
So there's kind of people stuck there.
And then there's the other place wherelike they know something's going on.
But again, they can't get to theright place to get the diagnosis,
whether it's an access problem oryou know, a whole host of things.
So really, this is where you needto listen to your inner voice.
Mm-hmm.
Man, usually that little voice is bangon, so if it walks like a duck, quack

(18:52):
like a duck, it's usually a duck.
So if you're feeling crummy, really tryto stay the course because I say while.
Hearing the words, you have ms.
Or you have breast cancer, or youknow, you have a LS, whatever it is.
It is a terrible day.
I'm not gonna sugarcoat that.

Speaker 5 (19:11):
Yeah.
But

it's also the first day that you have a plan that can start to form.
Mm-hmm.
That you have some choices that youdon't even see yet on the horizon.
Hmm.
So that whole pre-diagnosisand diagnosis phase.
Really then sets off that journey.
And I think the next phasethat I talk about is grief.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
Mm.

You know, there's a lot of grieving Yes.
That happens to you as an individual.
I know from my own personal experience,I was so caught up in the grief
of what my life wasn't gonna be.
Mm.
All the things that I lost.
Mm.
All of the.
Doom and gloom.
And you know what?

(19:56):
It wasn't until years later andsitting down and writing this book
again that I realized, althoughthose things were not even true.

Speaker 4 (20:03):
Mm.

They, you know, they weren't even things that had happened.
Yeah.
They were all these, this,this catastrophic thinking.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
Mm-hmm.

So like, yes, grieve that something's happened to you, grieve
that there's changes, there's changesin your home, your abilities, some of
your relationships, again, your work.
But that grief.
Is a normal part of the process.
Yeah.
And as you let it, as you feel it andyou and you start to kind of move through

(20:31):
it, you will get to a place that getsbetter for yourself and your family.
You know, anger happens.
I was really you.
A word I can't say on the podcast.
I was really mad.
And and for me, I harnessthat anger, like as action.

(20:54):
Mm-hmm.
Different for different people.
Don't stay in anger too long.
Mm.
Because it can be like a reallyugly weed in the garden and then
you're gonna, you know, startto work your way to acceptance.
And I think it's when you can.
Start to normalize your new normal.
Mm, which again, is very hard is whenyou can see that there might be some

(21:19):
brightness and some beauty and somesignificant positive changes for yourself.
Mm.
But you're gonna have to gothrough that muck at first.
And as you perfectly said.
This is sometimes a rinse repeat, right?
Yes.
Just because you kind of feel likemaybe for a few weeks you worked
through grief, it doesn't meanthat it ain't ever gonna come back.

(21:41):
Exactly.
And that there's not gonna be atime you feel totally bummed mm-hmm.
About this happening to you.
So I think the more you can kindof like understand that these
things are predictable mm-hmm.
The better off you'reable to cope with it.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
So good.
I love that you said that.
'cause I say, I'm like, when you live withchronic illness, Brenda, and you and I
both know this, like a part of the fear.
And I think also sometimes thefalse aspect of this is thinking.
My life is gonna be souncertain and unpredictable
that I can't have any control.
Like I can't plan, I can't do allof these things a hundred percent.

(22:19):
And I have found like, well,I already know my body's
gonna do what it's gonna do.
And that is more than most peoplehave where they just wake up one
day and they're in the hospital.
And we all probably experience thatat the very beginning of the stages.
But after some time, you know,okay, I'm heading into a flare
up, or this is about to happen.
Yeah.
And you can create your life.

(22:40):
To some way sustain that.

Right.
Ex.
Exactly.
That's perfectly said.
And that's that newbie phasethat you were talking about.
That's the reassurance I think thatpodcasts like this and the book
can help give people, is to knowthat that part will get better.
Right?
Yes.
Because it's really, it is scaryand it's overwhelming and people.

(23:02):
You know, it's, it's talked aboutmore today and I, I love that
some of the younger generationis like more tapped into it.
Mm-hmm.
And that they, they getthe vibe, but you know.
Vulnerability is hard.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yes.
It's,

you know, vulnerability is hard and you're gonna become,
you're gonna get a masterclassin it real quick, real quick.
Yeah.
You're, you're gonna get a masterclass.
And again, it's one of the things I thinkif you can kind of, sort of absorb that,
like the art of it and be vulnerableand let people show up for you in ways

(23:34):
that maybe you never would've before.
I have control issues too.
So, this has been a bigpart of my learning process.
There's a lot of beauty in that.
Mm-hmm.
There is.
It's and a lot of stress relief.
Mm.
And you know, you don't need to putextra stress on yourself when you're
living with a chronic condition.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
So true.
Mm-hmm.
I'm curious, you know, you just, youshare like, it's a lot of stress and
it's a lot of, a lot of these things.
I mean, first of all, we'retalking about just the, right
now we're just talking about lifewith chronic illness, like Yeah.
What that looks like in the phases.
But when you got to this space.
Brenda of like, okay, now Ineed to take care of my family.

(24:16):
I need to take care of me.
And also going through thatforever loop of those emotions.
Mm-hmm.
How did you, like, can you walk usthrough how you managed your business
during like these intense phases?

Yeah.
You know, that's that wasn't always easy.
And I think it's, it's like, again, likewe're saying, it got, I got better at it.
Mm-hmm.
As time went on, I think one of thebiggest pieces of advice, you know,
I would give to female founders orentrepreneurs or, you know, anybody

(24:51):
out there wanting to do that is, Ihad a lot of passion for what I wanted
to do, so I think a lot of that.
It wasn't just sort of like a job to me.
Mm.
It was really a more of a feeling oflike, I, you know, I kinda wanna change
the world and I wanna make a difference.
And so I think for me, thatcreated a lot of energy.

(25:14):
Mm.
And helped sustained.
Some of those fatigue times for me.
So I would say whatever you're thinkingabout doing and building, make sure that
it does align to your passion, your corevalues, you know, what you believe in,
whether it's a product or a service.
Because to be successful at it,you're gonna have to pour in.

(25:37):
Every waking minute of yourself.
And sometimes that might not be asmany hours as somebody that isn't
living with a life changing illness.
So first of all, make sureit's something you really like.
Yeah.
Make sure it's somethingthat you really wanna do.
And then.
Be good about setting your own boundaries.
It's hard, and I'm gonna bereally honest with everybody.

(25:59):
I wasn't great at it at first.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I wasn't, I sometimes I was likethose stupid EverReady bunny commercials
that, you know, that wanted to keep goingand going and going, going, and I had
gone too much and then I set myself upfor a big attack or two weeks in beds
when it maybe could have just been a day.

Speaker 5 (26:18):
Yeah.

So be get real with conserving your energy.
What your boundaries look like.
There's gonna always be I think whetheryou're sick or not in startup mode or
in early growth years of your business,there's gonna always be a naysayer.
Of course, there's gonna always besomebody to tell you all the reasons

(26:38):
why it's not gonna work and all thereasons why, you know, it's not, and
like, keep that in context, right?
Mm.
Some of it might be goodadvice, but if it's.
A person that's kind of saying thosethings maybe because of jealousy
or ulterior motives, or they, theydon't understand your condition and
they just think you're a sick person.

(27:00):
Drown out that noise, man.
Mm-hmm.
You know, those are people thatdefinitely put your boundaries.
Those kind of people in my life were notpeople that stayed in my inner circle.
Mm.
They were not people that I leaned into.
They were people that I leaned away from.
Mm-hmm.
So I think, I think that's somethingto, to think about as well.
And again, back to me,I can only say I am.

(27:21):
Authentic, what you see is what you get.
I was very transparent with my team.
Mm.
You know, I started off with a teamof me and one other person, and
as I exited my business two weeksago, it's a team of 420 people.
Mm.
But no matter what the size of it was.
I shared where I was at with my health.

(27:42):
Obviously we worked in health.
Yeah.
But I let people know, so Ifelt really passionate about
educating them along the way.
Mm.
Like I'm canceling my meetings todaybecause it's not a good day for me.
I'm exhausted.
I'm not thinking clearly,and I wanna show up for you.
Yeah.
In a way that you deserve.
'cause you're an awesome team member.

(28:02):
Yeah.
And I wanna help guide you ormake the best decision together.
So we're gonna need toreschedule this till Friday.
And I found that people were like, cool.
But if I had probably done it differently,it would've made people feel more insecure
and maybe been like, well, should we evenbe working for this lady that's sick?
Do you know what I mean?
Right, right.
So I think I've been very transparentand forthcoming about where I

(28:24):
was as their, as their boss.
Yeah.
I mean

Speaker 2 (28:30):
that right there.
Everybody like that right there.
Like I feel like in general we allwish we had more space and agency in
advocating in that way for ourselvesand for whatever businesses we have.
I'm curious, as you grew into thatrole of, in your business, did your

(28:54):
advocacy for yourself, health wise.
Really amplify how you were ableto show up in your business?

A hundred percent.
It absolutely did.
It absolutely did.
Because it's kind of like thesestages in the books we were talking
about, you know, you're processingit more, you're owning it more,
you're understanding yourself more.
Mm-hmm.
You're getting familiar with your.
You know, your boundaries, yourbarriers, your overall health.
You know, as I had to go, lots of placesto meet with prospective clients, and

(29:26):
you're on a plane every other day.
Okay.
I did that because that was whatwas expected, and then I had to say
to myself, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You know, you can't do a plane every day.
Yeah.
Here's another great example.
I just had a two week booktour that darn near killed me.
Oh my.
I mean, I, it was a planeevery day across the country.

(29:47):
The US twice and once overseas.
I was like afterwards, talked to myteam and said, no, no, no, no, no.
I'd forgotten.
We, we need to schedulesome down days in here.
Yes.
I gotta go to bed.
Yes.
Because I really, I mean, I cameback from that and I did not move.
Out of the bed for 48 hours.

(30:07):
But this is another great exampleof the rinse repeat cycle.
Yes, I know this, but I did it anywaysbecause I was excited and passionate.
Yeah.
And then I had the little gentle reminder,hello, you need a little bit more rest.
Mm-hmm.
And so now as I'm looking atthe next month, I have built
in that time to just save.

(30:27):
Come on.
Practice what you preach, right?
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah.
It's you're, yes, absolutely.
I think especially when you're passionateand excited about it, I think, yeah.
There's two places in our lives.
I think we can, to your point, there'snaysayers or there's people who are
saying, you can't do it that way becausethat's not how it's done in business.
Yeah.
Or that's not how we do thingsin the professional space.

(30:52):
Right.
So you have that noise andthen you have your own.
You're own like mm-hmm.
Oh, I'm so excited.
I'm so passionate.
And then you're ignoring the body whois saying yo, we gotta slow this down.
Exactly right.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah.
So I'm curious for, for those thatare listening, who might be in this.
Space of growth because I findthat for my clients specifically
within the space of growth andscaling, yeah, a hundred percent.
They, they move away from some of theboundaries and things that they have in
place because of those two examples Ijust shared, which is like, you're excited

(31:29):
and then you have a world telling you youcan't keep sustaining growth and scaling.
Mm-hmm.
If you don't just sacrificemore of what your body needs.
So I'm curious how, whatwould you share with someone
who's in that space right now?

Great.
I love that question.
So, first of all, I wanna validatethat there's probably no more
absolute fun in building a businessthan growth and scale, right?
Yes.
I mean, because that is a real worldexample of what you're doing's working.
Mm-hmm.
So if you're seeing growthand you're seeing scale, then
you're doing something right.

(32:03):
Mm-hmm.
So first of all, KU know kudos.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because that's, that's not easy to do.
So again, keep the enthusiasm, keepyour recipe because now we have
a proof point that it's working.
Your, your, your scaleand your growth is there.
So keep, keep doing what you're doing.
So we're drowning off thosenail naysayers by just owning.

(32:25):
The proof is in the pudding.
You can see it on your p and l or youcan see it in your head count, or you
can see it in your overall sales oryour profit margin, whatever your metric
might be of, of how you're judging this.
And then allow yourself to know.
That if you need a hot minute,whether it's 10 or a day or whatever,

(32:46):
that everything you've createdwill not fall apart in that time.
It will not fall apart.
It's gonna feel like it is.
Absolutely control issues.
I bet you everybody that's listeningto this, I've also always said over
the years, if you end up with achronic condition, it's probably
because you are a control freak.
But that's a topic for another podcast.

(33:07):
Totally.
So anyways, just know that by youneeding to do a self-care day.
Or, you know, a life changing conditionday, or a doctor's appointment or sitting
down and having a real conversationwith your family about where you're at,
your business isn't gonna fall apart,your business is not gonna fall apart.

(33:27):
And that also says this lesson, youknow, when you're scaling, let's make
sure that executive team, or yourtrusted confidant, whether it's your
COO, your CFO, your veeps, your pre,whatever it is that you know, you.
I always hired to my weakness, you know?

(33:48):
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot of things I'm excellent at,or I'm a, you know, I'm a, I'm a master.
Mm-hmm.
There's a ton of thingsthat I am terrible at.

Speaker 4 (33:58):
Mm-hmm.

And I always looked for people.
That had next level skillsway better than my own,

Speaker 4 (34:07):
and

they were on the team because I knew like leaning into them
during these times when I needed tofor my health, we were in good hands.
Yeah, great, great individuals.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
I love that.
Such a good point I think to yourstory and your experience of like
knowing that you can say no or you can.
I have confidence in your team because ofadvocating, because you and your business,
you're not just advocating for you.
You built a business aroundadvocacy for patients.

(34:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So living and breathing that in yourvalues and the way you showed up.
Definitely seems like it.
It applied to how you decided togrow and leverage your, like the
strengths you have to help othersdo the same, which is so cool.
So cool.
Thank you.
So cool.
I appreciate

that.
I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's been, it's been just the mostincredible, you know, my daughter I think,
sometimes gets somewhat annoyed becauseI tell her sometimes, oh, I loved doing
that more than, you know, raising you.
And she's like, mom.
And I'm like, oh, I'm just kidding.
But I think anybody that'sbuilt a business, they do.
They, you feel, you feel likeyou, you do for your kids.

(35:22):
It was one of my kids, you know?
Mm.
And, and I think it was reallyimportant to me to, to create a culture.
At Snow companies of,you know, inclusiveness.
It's largely, I mean, I, I,again, I've just exited, but.
You know, there was a timethat it was 80% women.

(35:44):
You know, the executive teamwas all women, but one male.
Like these things I'm very proud ofpeople of color, people that identify,
you know, gender wise, different.
Like, I'm very, very, very proudof those things because I believe.
That's what makes the worldgreat, you know, is like
different perspectives, different.
And I don't have all the answers.

(36:06):
I'm never gonna have all the answers.
Yeah.
Nobody is.
Yeah.
Nobody is.
Yeah.
But you know, if you don't,if you're not open, yeah.
To other people's thoughts andperspectives, I think that limits
your ability to be successful for me.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah.
No, I totally agree with you.
And this is somethingthat I really found very.
Just line when I was researchingyou, learning about you.
It's your passion for storytelling.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like that's the reason why I havea podcast like legitimately and
it's a huge thing, and I have foundso much healing myself and so much

(36:40):
empowerment myself through hearingother people tell their story and
then my own ability to tell my story.
So how did that show up in your lifeand the operation of your business?
How did that affect that?

Yeah.
Well first of all, you do agreat job telling stories too.
I wanted to say thatyou're, you're wonderful.
I appreciate it.
Yeah, you're wonderful to listen to.
You're a natural.
Well, I think it was, withoutknowing it at the time, it's
only a reflective question.
I knew that when I started sharingmy story at support groups and just

(37:17):
very grassroots and organicallyearly on before the company
was founded, it was healing me.
Hmm.
There was so much power.
I mean, there's part of my story thatI, I talk about, and there is parts
of my story in the book, althoughit is not a memoir, you know, when
my daughter thought I was gonna die.

Speaker 4 (37:34):
Mm.

And she was five years old and it was just her
and I that her biological fatherwasn't present in her life.
And I mean, I still get tears to this day.
Yeah.
Looking at her face and hersaying, mommy, are you gonna die?
Hmm.
The book opens that wayand that I must have.
Shared my story tens of thousandsof times and cried like a baby

(37:59):
every time I got to that point.
And then one day I didn't cry as hardor as long at that part and I went
back home and had like a meditativereflective moment and I thought
it's because you've started to heal.
It's because you started to heal.
And then I thought, well, wow.
Now, what if you can amplify that?
What if every patient has anopportunity to share their story

(38:23):
and move somebody else to thinkingabout their condition differently?
Or it's a call to action, orthey just don't feel so alone?
Yes.
You know.
Then that's, that's really powerful stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Also, the way we learn things likethe reason you read books Yeah.

(38:44):
To kids.
I mean, it's, it's proven with MRIscans and all kinds of science that
you learn in the form of the parable.
The Bible's written in the parable, thekoran's written, you know, whatever it is.
I mean, it's not a religiousthing, it's just a nursery rhyme.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
Yeah.

A storybook.
That's how we

Speaker 2 (38:59):
learn

what, what, that's how we think.
Actually.
It's, that's how our s work.
It's how exactly, and it's howcomplicated thoughts make sense

Speaker 4 (39:10):
Yes.

In your brain.
So, you know, you could, I, so Istarted to see all kinds of patients
that had gone to the doctor a milliontimes, been told in their five
minute, you know, appointment andlike you said, maybe handed a leaflet,
but when they could see Johnny.
Tell his story that had the same, youknow, condition, age-related, macular

(39:33):
degeneration and what he went through whenhe was blind and how he got to a place
of help and acceptance or they, and thatperson was like, oh my God, like this
is the most profound moment of my life.
I thought this is whatneeds to be amplified.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Hmm.

Speaker 5 (39:47):
Yeah.
So

Speaker 2 (39:50):
powerful.
It's interesting thata part of your story.
And the healing came fromthe repetitiveness Yeah.
Of telling it, right?
Yeah.
Do you think that where we arein times now, there is an aspect
of that that we're missing?

You know, I do a little bit and, and I don't know if this is.
Gonna answer it exactly maybe theway you're asking the question.
So let me, let me try here andwe can go back, but I think
there's so much more noise.
Yes.
For humans today, you know, ourattention spans we know have gotten
shorter than even 20 years ago.
You know what used to be somebodyhad the attention span to watch

(40:34):
for 15 minutes is now like four.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
Mm-hmm.

So.
We have these phones attached toour, you know, head and hip and
everywhere else, and there's justa lot of incoming information
all day, every day, all the time.
And it's my personal belief, onlymy personal belief that we're
struggling with the art of listening.

(40:58):
Mm.
Yep.
And, yep.
And how can you beunderstood if you don't hear?
Mm.
You are not listening.
And when somebody is in this vulnerablestate that we talked about and they're
wanting you to listen, man, you got it.

(41:18):
This is the big validator, right?
Because they're gonna feel 10times worse if you don't listen.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Mm-hmm.

If you don't acknowledge their pain, their suffering, their joy,
whatever it is, and you are on the phone.
Or you're looking away, or yourown attention span is such that
you can't be emotionally available.
So the art of listening I think is key.

(41:46):
And I think it's as a country, forgetchronic illness to be understood.
We need to hear

Speaker 2 (41:55):
listening.
Yes, I hear you.
I hear you with that.
I think.
What I have seen very much soBrenda, in the space of that
is that we're craving that.
Yeah.
People are craving that.
I think this is why communities,smaller, niche communities are growing.
They're becoming more important.
I don't care how, this ismy whole thing about ai.

(42:17):
I am like, I don't care howmuch AI comes into the world.
We're still gonna need human beingsto be human beings, and we're still
gonna wanna connect to each other.
I, I just do not, hundred percent.
You know?
And so I think it's such apowerful point that you're
bringing out that the listening.
Key.
We're not actually listening.
We think we're listening.

(42:37):
And this is very much, youknow, as a patient myself.
Mm-hmm.
Even with our doctors, even with ourhealthcare team, we almost have to like
sit them down and tell them how to listento us because they're not even present.
They're not even listening.

(42:58):
And so I.
When we have books and we have authorsand we have leaders or thought leaders,
however you wanna call us, right?
Yep.
That we are alsolistening back and mm-hmm.
Providing spaces to belistened to or to be heard.
Mm-hmm.
And I know you've done a lot ofthat work with, within your company

(43:21):
and as well outside of that.
So what has that look like for you,building those spaces for people
to be listened to and connect?

Yeah.
You know, like really humbledbeyond belief and beyond measure it.
It's, I think it's sacred, you know?
Mm.
Like sometimes, you know, I'm a strangerand two hours later, you know, your
deepest, darkest secrets and emotions andthe best thing, you know, you're, you're,
you're feeling comfortable to do that.
But again, I think it's because.

(43:51):
I make people feel comfortable.
So again, listening, making peoplefeel comfortable, being open yourself.
I will share, you know, all,all of my things and they're,
they're not all great, you know?
Mm-hmm.
But that this is also normal.
Yeah.
So.
I think it's, it is having,having that space for people.

(44:12):
I mean, yes.
When you talk about like onlinecommunities and all kinds of
things, you know, there's alsosome simple rules of engagement.
Be kind.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
Like literally be kind.
One of my biggest insecurities aboutlaunching the book, and I don't have
many honestly, and it's taken me tobecome old to, to get rid of all the

(44:35):
insecurities, but, was the trolls.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it was the people thatit's like, and you know, it's like
my parents when I was growing up,say, if you don't have anything
nice to say, don't say it at all.
And kind of never truer words, right?
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, kindness, peopleneed you to show up, kind.
People need you, you to showup with a sense of gratitude.
And then I think you, these thingscan happen a lot more organically.

(44:59):
Mm.
Where you can have theopportunity to educate.
Be educated.
Yeah.
And you know, now that I really lookto like a lot of my philanthropic
work and, you know, give back, notonly with, with, with, you know,
financial resources, but my timeresources, people are so appreciative.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Mm-hmm.
You know,

they really, really are.
And it's simple act of kindness again.
And when you see somebody that's so.
Appreciative because you showedup or because you cared, you,
because you did something.
I think these things are very, they,they like, I'll use my last word.

(45:44):
They snowball.
Mm.
You know, they, they, they,they create synergies.
They really do.
And, and that's the kind ofstuff that I think we need.
As people living with chronic conditionsto, to be our cups filled up and to
be able to keep giving back in ways.
But I think it also just,it spreads and it magnifies,

Speaker 2 (46:05):
yeah.
Yeah.
The baby

steps.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
The baby steps, the ripple effects everything.
Yeah.
You know?
Is, is there, I have a question thatI ask everyone, and I usually ask it a
little later, but I'm gonna ask it now.
What is something that when you to,and this is kind of two prong, you
can answer this both ways honestly.

(46:27):
Sure.
What is something that you thoughtwas true when you were first diagnosed
that you no longer believe is true?

Well, I think when I was first diagnosed, I
thought I was gonna absolutelyhave a terrible, miserable life.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Mm.

And that why would I even wanna continue going on?
Mm.
Like this was such a horrible diagnosisand the news I got from various
neurologists, from being misdiagnosed topainting a very bleak picture for my life.
Honestly, if I didn't have my daughter.

(47:04):
And know that she needed a mother,like I really thought there
was nothing worth living for.
And I know that to be categoricallyinaccurate, never true, totally wrong.
It's false.
You know, as many ways thatI can condemn that thought.
So that's, that'sprobably the biggest one.

(47:25):
And it's a heavy one.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can, I can feel that I can relateto that in a lot of different ways.
Yeah.
It's scary to have that be your first,you know, belief and it's, and at
the time it feels very real, right?
It feels it does.
Mm-hmm.
So, unbelievably real.

(47:49):
And then when you learn that it's not,that it is a relief, I think it also
lightens what we experience with ourchronic, with our chronic illnesses.
Like the, the, the level ofintensity that they have.
They felt, to me personally, lighter.
I don't know if that's an experience,but I feel like once you let go of that

(48:09):
falseness, it's, it shifts everything.
Right.
It does.
Yeah.
And the,

you know, the snow family creed, and I got so sick and tired of
hearing it from my father, and it was sosimple, but it was like, stay positive,
Bren, you know, always stay positive,find the positive thing in all of this.
And, you know, I remember one timelooking at him, this is years ago,
and just losing it, just beinglike, it's not being confident.
Mm-hmm.
You know, but like, he was right.

(48:35):
Mm.
Like trying to find.
That one nugget to hold onto mm-hmm.
Is exactly what you said.
Nikita lightens everything.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Yeah.
And you know, to your, to yourpoint with that, I, I have, I have
a, I don't know how you describeit, but I have a dance with that.
Right.
A dance with.
Being okay with sometimes it truly100% sucks and I am not gonna see
the positive and I'm okay that Idon't see the positive right now.

(49:07):
Yep, okay.
It just sucks.
And then also I always say it's neverthis or it's always, and then also,
yeah, there is something powerful andbeing like, yeah, that was the worst
day of my life and I'm still here.
Right.
Yeah.
Like there is an aspect of that.
Yeah.
And I think we, to your point, we talklike full circle in this conversation.

(49:30):
We have to give all of us permission tobe riding those waves, how they come.
Mm-hmm.
And not judge someone.
Yeah.
On whether or not they're just onlyseeing right now the funnel of negativity.
Yep.
Because it is what theirlived experience is right now.
Yeah.
And also hope that they getto see some light later.

(49:51):
Exactly.
I'm not shame them

for either way, you know?
Exactly.
Yeah.
I, I the judgment, I haveno tolerance for Yeah.
No room.
And, you know, as I've been outspeaking about the book, if that's
the one thing I could say is, youknow, hope you're not alone and,
you know, just do not feel judged.
Do not take on that guilt.
Do not take on any of that becauseit's, it's just, it's just.

(50:14):
It just will, it can just eat you alive.
Yeah.
You know?
And any and anybody that really lovesyou and is really worth having in your
inner circle isn't gonna judge you.
Yeah.
And the ones that do.
That's what I have to say.
She said

Speaker 3 (50:30):
she, yeah,

yeah,

Speaker 3 (50:31):
yeah.
You guys

Speaker 2 (50:32):
wanted to check out the video part of that because
it's a very visual moment there.
Yeah.

Sticking out.
Sticking out my tongue, making the sound.
Exactly.
I

Speaker 2 (50:40):
love it.
I love it.
Okay, and then lastly, what issomething true about business?
What is something that youthought was true about business?
That is no.
You are like, yeah, that's not true.
Oh

boy,

Speaker 2 (50:52):
a ton,

right?
Oh, let's see.
Well, let's see.
Something that I thought was true aboutbusiness that I found out that it wasn't
true, I think I thought it would be a loteasier to manage large teams of people.

(51:15):
Than it turned out to be.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm talking about implementingbest in class, you know, training
and development opportunities.
Mm-hmm.
Because when you're smaller, you as thefounder or the entrepreneur are really
touching everybody and everything.
Mm-hmm.
And this osmosis is happening.
Mm-hmm.
And this knowledge transfer is happening.

(51:37):
Mm-hmm.
And that energy is happeningand you're just like all in it.
Once you've hit about, at leastfor me in my business, that
80 people mark, 80, 80 people.
I wasn't, it was just humanly, itwas just not possible, you know?
Mm.
And back to that scale, but it waslike, well, how do we infuse in all this

(52:00):
next generation of great team members

Speaker 4 (52:02):
mm-hmm.

All of the things.
That this kind of first group had, and Ithought that would be easy and it wasn't.
Mm.
So keeping the culture alive, keeping thatstory alive, keeping the purpose alive,
keeping the quality and the excellence.
Mm, alive that's veryhard, remains challenging.

(52:24):
And it's something again, as the founder,the CEO, whatever your job that you
really can't take your eye off of because.
That is the one thing I foundout that like, nobody's gonna
do it quite like you either.
Or if it's not an important initiativefrom your desk, it's not gonna be an
important initiative from anybody's desk.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Mm.
So interesting.
That is so interesting.
It's, it's kind of, and, and areflection of a advocacy for yourself.
Like no one is gonna knowwhat your body feels.
And you can be in a room of doctors andtrying, they're telling you what the,
you know, paper says that it says, butyou're like, no, but my body is saying

(53:03):
different or I'm feeling it different.
Only you can really advocateto that level, right?
And so trying to infuse that intoa business where like, I know you
think that's the way we need togo, but I know in my bones that
this is how we need to do it.
And you may not agree becauseyou don't see the vision.
And that's what I hear you sayingit was that it's like a lot more

(53:25):
challenging over time as you addmore people into that vision.
Yeah.
To expand on that.

Yeah.
And keeping those core competencies,you know, alive and nurtured and
making sure that kind of like thesuccess of how you did things and
why you did things that got you here.
You know, we're not throwing thebaby out with the bath water, right?
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
That, that, that's continuing to do.
And I, I, I find that the more peopleon the team, it's not impossible.

(53:56):
Just becomes harder to do.
Yeah.
And you have to come up withdifferent strategies to do it.
'cause you can't do it all.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah.
I heard this to your point,I heard this from Sarah, I
wanna say it's Sarah Blakely.
Spanx, the CEO of Spanx.
Yeah.
She's great.
And she was saying, you know,depending on how you scale is.
On like how diluted your, your thoughtsand your values become, especially if
you're taking on investors and all thosekind of things, and why her business

(54:25):
felt like she did so well is becauseshe didn't do that at the beginning
and it took her a long time, decade.
Yeah, over a decade to get to that point.
And so yeah, her vision kept stayingclear to what she wanted it to be.
And I think that's an interesting thought.
I think that's right too, right?
I think that's an interestingthought as we think about our

(54:45):
businesses and how do we finagle,that's a whole nother conversation.
Right on.
It is okay if you are going to be growing.
With a, a smaller team, how do wecreate systems and things around
you so that you're not sacrificingyourself completely and your wellbeing?
So that's a, that's an interestingthought, but I appreciate you sharing
that with me, that that's amazing.

(55:06):
Love that we can question, we can make

a list together and come back and talk about it.
We

Speaker 2 (55:10):
totally can.
We totally can.
Well, please let us know how.
Everyone can find you.
We know we'll haveeverything in the show notes.
Sure.
But I always like to have the guests sharewith us how they can find you and how
they can support some of the initiativesyou're in are up doing right now.
Well,

that's, that's, that's very, very kind.
So, brenda snow.com
is, is the website.
I think it's will be looking fancyand new and refreshed here in
the near future, but you can alsoget ahold of me through there.
You can.
Contact me and, and I will get anemail and I will respond to you.
And then I think, you know,the book is really helpful too.
I just do want people to know that allof the proceeds that I receive will be

(55:51):
donated to health related charities.
So I look forward to announcing that,you know, at the end of the year and.
Nikita, if you have any special ones,all of the lovely people that have had
me on the podcast, I'd love to know.
Yes.
So that I can make sure that someof those contributions go to things
that you're passionate about.
Absolutely.
Because I do appreciatethe time and your audience.
And the last thing I would sayis, you know, never, ever, ever.

(56:15):
Let one of these insidious life changingchronic illnesses define who you are.
Mm.
Because you're awesomejust the way you are.
Mm.
And the sooner that you like, come toterms with that and own that, you're
gonna be just, you know, feeling somuch better and achieving all of the

(56:38):
things that you deserve to be achieving.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
I love that.
Well, thank you so much, Brenda.
Thank.
Thank you too.
This was lovely.
I enjoyed it so much.

Speaker 5 (56:48):
Me too.
Sending you big kiss.
Same here.
Same here.
Thank you.
Thanks everybody.
Take care.
Bye y'all.
Bye-bye.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
That's a wrap for this episode of Business with Chronic Illness.
If you would like to start and growan online coaching business with me,
head to the show notes to click a linkto book a sales call, and learn how
to make money with chronic illness.
You can also check out our websiteat ww dot crafted to thrive.com
for this episode's, show notes andjoin our email list to get exclusive
content where I coach you on how tochronically grow a profitable business.

(57:27):
While living with chronic illness,until next time, remember,
yes, you are crafted to thrive.

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Setting Health-First Boundaries to Grow a Sustainable Business with Chronic Illness | Brenda Snow

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Setting Health-First Boundaries to Grow a Sustainable Business with Chronic Illness | Brenda Snow