How to Find Great Podcast Guests: Expert Tips from Podmatch’s Alex Sanfilippo

Episode Transcript
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Kevin (00:00):
Okay, I'm caught up on the outline, but I think there's
something missing.
Oh, we don't have to talk longabout it, but I think we should
talk about the update to MagicMastering.

Jordan (00:09):
Yes, that is hot off the press Hot off the press.
So fresh that it didn't evenmake it to the outline when I
published it yesterday.

Kevin (00:17):
Yes, we need to do a proper intro for Alex in a
second, but before we get there,Alex, do you use Magic
Mastering on any of yourpodcasts?

Alex (00:25):
I sub out all of my editing, so whether someone uses
it or not, I'm unsure, you'reunsure.

Jordan (00:30):
Okay, this is a very diplomatic answer.
Yeah.

Alex (00:32):
I'm sorry, I know what it is.

Kevin (00:41):
Well, you knew what it was, but now it's something new.
It does the same great things.
It's always done.
I actually just put a word inthere that is going to be
removed by this new featureautomatically.
I said, um, so can you guesswhat the feature is?

Alex (00:49):
Yeah, it's going to remove filler words, that's right.

Kevin (00:51):
And we have a fun name for it we're calling it the
filler killer.

Jordan (00:54):
So good.

Kevin (00:55):
So Magic Mastering now has an option where you can turn
on the filler killer if youwant.
I do this all the time.
I've done it a few times, justin the few sentences of
explaining it.
But what it does is if fillerwords bother you and you like to
remove them in editing.
Obviously that takes a lot oftime usually, and so this can do
it automatically.
Now, if you don't have aproblem with filler words, or if
you just like the recording andyou don't take them out, don't

(01:22):
worry about it takes to gothrough a recording and edit
them all out.
Now the filler killer can pullthem out cautiously and
carefully and automatically.

Jordan (01:32):
Yeah, a lot of times when I see these kind of filler
word removal tools, it will cutoff the beginning of a sentence
or it'll cut off like the end ofa word, and what I love about
the filler killer that we haveis that it is cautious, and so
if you have a thing where it'slike, yeah, so we went in this
thing, it's going to leave thatone because it's attached to

(01:53):
yeah.

Kevin (01:54):
Right.
When a filler word bleeds rightinto another word, it typically
leaves it.
It's not super choppy, yeah.
So I'm very excited about that,but there's more, there's more.
That's just one of two greatnew features coming to Magic
Mastering.
The other one is called PowerClean, and Power Clean is not
something that you turn on oroff at the feature level.

(02:14):
It is a special use case forwhen you happen to have a bad
recording or a recording in anoisy environment, or you did a
remote location recording andyou're in a conference hall, or
you were outside and there couldbe.
You're in a conference hall oryou were outside and there could
be some wind, noise, therecould be some traffic.
I did one of the most extremetests I've ever done on any
feature that we've ever launchedand tested in Buzzsprout.
I was at a swim meet thisweekend and so I put in my

(02:38):
earbuds, which are not great forrecording, and I was walking
around loud crowd, somebodyannouncing, like all the
swimmers, over a loudspeaker.
There was planes flyingoverhead, there was cars driving
by and I just did a little.
You know 30 second episode.
I recorded that and I uploadedit to Buzzsprout and then I
uploaded it again and I turnedon the power clean and it was.
What do you think, jordan,knock your socks off.

Jordan (02:59):
Yeah, like exponentially better.
It was listenable.
Yeah, this is one of thosetools that is just such a huge
advantage for podcasters thatare recording, you know, on
their phone in a public spaceand it's loud and don't have a
good recording studio.
Or maybe if you have a guestthat, like, calls in and

(03:19):
recording from their van outsideof a swim meet and the audio
sounds not so great and this isa good option.

Kevin (03:26):
You're interviewing somebody in a van outside of a
swim meet and the audio soundsnot so great.
And this is a good option.
That's a weird interview.
You're interviewing somebody ina van outside of a swim meet.

Alex (03:29):
That's concerning yeah, I think that podcast doesn't seem
like a safe show to be involvedin.
Right, I really like this one.
I regularly suggest MagicMastering to people and I like
this feature a lot because moreand more, I'm finding people
that even meeting through likesome of my tools and stuff that
we have, they're meeting inperson and then they're like hey
, alex, this interview soundsterrible because I'm used to
using my home studio, but welive so close we decided to meet

(03:51):
up in person.
That's a really great optionfor people.
I love that y'all releasingthat.
That's very smart and helpful.

Jordan (03:57):
Yeah, and it's great that it's on the episode level.
So when you go to, you know,drop your episode into the
upload.
You just toggle it on If it'san especially bad episode, for
whatever reason, I mean it'sgreat.

Kevin (04:07):
Right.
The idea is that you would notuse it, and hopefully you don't
need it for every episode, butonce in a blue moon you will
have a sketchy recording,something that just whether it
was the circumstances or here'ssomething that happens all the
time is that you get a guest onand you're you think everything
sounds okay and you might evenbe watching them on video and
everything looks okay.

(04:27):
But they have the wrong micconfigured and so they're
actually recording from theirlaptop mic, even though they
have a microphone right in frontof their face that you're
looking at.
And so then you listen backwhen you start editing and you
realize, oh, there's a lot ofreverb or something sounds
hollow.
And so in those circumstancesyou don't want to trash the
whole recording, you don't wantto throw it away.
It was good, you still want touse it, and so now you can just

(04:48):
power clean it and it will makeit passable.
We're not promising that it'sgoing to make it studio quality,
but it's going to make amassive improvement over what it
was.
If you use Magic Mastering,check it out.
There's a new option fillerkiller in your settings should
see power clean when you go toupload.
That you can turn on or off,and if you don't use magic
mastering, there's never been abetter time to try it out.

Jordan (05:12):
Welcome back to Buzzcast, the podcast about all
things podcasting from thepeople at Buzzsprout.
Today we are going a littlemeta.
We're talking about finding andbooking guests for your podcast
and Alban is out enjoying sometime off, so we also needed to
find and book a great podcastguest for this podcast.
This is the first time we'vehad someone fill in that is

(05:36):
outside of the Buzzsprout teamsince 2023.

Kevin (05:40):
But this guest pretty much, I mean if you're going
outside of the Buzzsprout team,I mean Alex is like almost on
the Buzzsprout team.

Jordan (05:48):
Yeah, he is.

Kevin (05:48):
He's in Jacksonville.
He's in the office all the time.
I see him in church everySunday.
We bump into each other.
We live in one of the largestpossibly the largest city, I
think in all of America.
Yeah, and I still randomly bumpinto Alex all the time.

Jordan (06:06):
You're in a lot of the same circles, yeah, so our guest
is Alex Sanfilippo.
Alex is the host of PodcastingMade Simple and the founder of
Podmatch, which is one of thetop platforms connecting podcast
hosts and guests.
And you started Podmatch fiveyears ago, right?
I saw that post with you andAlecia and your first photo of
Podmatch.
I just thought that was so coolbecause that was like recent.

(06:27):
You celebrated the anniversary.

Alex (06:29):
Yeah, just a couple of weeks ago.
It's funny every time she seesthat picture.
You know everyone has that.
I don't want to call it butlike the time hop thing where
you can see previous years.
Every time she sees thatpicture and then, when I post it
again, she's like how did I getmy hair that big?
And she's like what did I do?
I'm like I don't know, I'msorry, like let's not try to
recreate it though.

Kevin (06:47):
It was a very good hair day.

Jordan (06:48):
That's so funny.
So I see in all the onlinecommunities, podcasters are
constantly asking like where canI find guests for my show?
Where can I find guests for myshow?
I need to find a guest for myshow and I think it's really
important to establish thatthere is a difference between
finding someone willing to belike a warm body on your podcast
and someone who's going to youknow bring up the value of that

(07:11):
episode.
So I wanted to hear what youguys think makes a great podcast
guest.

Alex (07:16):
When I think about a great guest for a podcast there's no
one size fits all is the firstthing I always think.
And whenever a podcast host says, oh, I've got so many people
reaching out, I don't need anyhelp finding guests, I'm like
well, maybe not like anybody,but the right ones are important
.
Because a great example is my18 year old nephew would love to
be on this show.
He's going to talk aboutbasketball the whole time and he
barely even knows anythingabout that, and so that's what

(07:37):
he wants to be on for.
So it's like, sure, that's abody that can show up, but is it
actually going to drive yournarrative forward?
Is it actually going to servethe audience and help again
further the goal that you havebehind the podcast?
That's a totally differenttopic than just quote unquote
finding a guest.
It's bringing the right personon that, once again, is gonna
actually be able to help.
And I think that that's thefirst question a host needs to

(07:57):
really ask, because it makes thevetting process a lot easier if
you have an idea in mind.

Kevin (08:02):
To me.
The whole idea of having a showthat is reliant upon bringing
guests in to communicate reallygreat and big concepts that
you're teaching around orentertaining around or whatever
you're doing on your podcastfeels so daunting to me.
It gives me anxiety to thinkabout what must go into that.
I'm very blessed that we don'tdo a show that brings a lot of

(08:23):
guests, because I don't think itwould be hard for me to come up
with the list of guests, but itfeels like that is a continual
burn.
You continually have to havethis list that you're always
adding names to, and then you'realways I would imagine you're
always reaching out to thosepeople, never knowing when one
is going to respond and then howyou slot them in to wherever
you currently are and based ontheir availability Are they
available tomorrow afternoon?
When one is going to respond,and then how you slot them in to

(08:44):
wherever you currently are andbased on their availability,
like are they available tomorrowafternoon?
Are they available two weeksfrom now, two months from now?
Who knows?
And who knows where you are inyour series, and so maybe you
just have to.
Your recommendation would belike you've got to accommodate
their schedule.
You have to record when they'reready, and maybe you don't
release it for a month or twomonths or something.

(09:04):
But all of that feels superhard this is the easiest way to
say it and so that's hopefullywe get to dig into some of that
on today's episode, alex, andhopefully you can bring some of
your expertise, because just theidea of doing this in the first
place just makes me like, oh, Idon't even know that.
I want to do it and I want tohelp people Anybody who's
listening to the show who feelslike having guests on their show

(09:24):
is something that they want toincorporate.
How can we make it easy forthem, how can we lower that
anxiety for them and how can wehelp them do it successfully?

Jordan (09:31):
I think that that is kind of the root of the problem
of people just grabbing whoeverthey can for their podcast.
When you're first starting yourpodcast, you're like, oh, I'm
so little and no one wants to beon my show.
I just need to get someone onand I like this person and so my
audience will like this person.
And I think that that's reallywhere a lot of people misstep
looking for podcast guests isthat they just they're too

(09:53):
intimidated to find someonewho's going to bring a lot of
value.

Alex (09:57):
I agree with that and I think that if I could go back to
when I first started and putmyself back in those shoes I
don't know if it's exactly thesame date, but Buzzcast and my
previous podcast Creating aBrand, which is still my same
feed today, I believe theystarted like the same week,
maybe even the same day, I'm notsure.

Jordan (10:12):
No way.

Alex (10:13):
I can remember like when I launched, the first two
episodes were I interviewed afriend and she interviewed me,
so it was kind of like prettyeasy, right.
And then past that, I didn'tgive it much thought.
You know, Buzzcast wasn'taround yet, so I didn't have the
help I needed.
So I just like launched and Iwas like I'll just figure it out
and, like Kevin said, it waslike oh man, why would anyone
want to be on this show?
Like I'm still like learninghow to articulate it and stuff.
I was very grateful that peopledid give me the time of day I

(10:40):
was able to get guests and beinga little bit desperate and just
like I'll just try and see ifthey'll come up.
They will, Then I can find atopic and somehow make it work,
Right.

Jordan (10:47):
Yeah.

Alex (10:48):
I think that that's the problem.
I think that the impostersyndrome that settles in for us
as hosts is real, but I do thinkwe need to understand that
having a podcast as a platformis a gift to anybody else these
days, any guests that you haveon.
When I go back to those days, Ican remember like I feel like I
was begging a little bit.
I'm like, please, come onpodcast, please, please, please.
And now fast forward yearslater, not that I have like the
biggest podcast or anything likethat, but people are, like it's

(11:09):
the opposite, like please, letme on your show, please, please,
please, please, right, oh yeah,it's totally flipped.
I think that's just the cultureof podcasting.
People are seeing the value init.
So, whether sell yourself short, you have something that is
really valuable and reach outwith confidence when you know
someone's the right fit for it.

Jordan (11:27):
And I know you're not being hyperbolic, because I will
see you post on Facebook likehey, who wants to be on
Podcasting Made Simple, and it'sjust like 200 comments of
people being like me, me, me.
I've recently been asked toguest on podcasts about
podcasting who are just startingup, and so you know, like some

(11:49):
of them don't even have episodesout, and it's so funny because
they reach out and they're likeI know this is a long shot, but
I really want you in, Likeyou're really helpful in the
community, and I'm just like,yeah, and they're like wait what
?
Seriously, I think that that isanother thing that people need
to keep in mind about thepodcasting community.
I mean not just the podcastingcommunity, but people genuinely
want to help you.
I mean, especially if you'recoming forth and you're very
like genuine about it and honestand it's meaningful, I think

(12:12):
that people will say yes morethan likely.

Alex (12:15):
Yeah, I agree with that, and it's interesting If somebody
does come to me pre-launch, Ialways ask what the launch date
is going to be.
And that determines whetherthey're going or not.
If they say I'm not really sureyet, then I'm like well, when
you have the launch date, let meknow and then we can schedule
something.
But if there's no launch dateyet, I'm like are you really
going to do this?
Are we just going to spend anhour together and it's never
going to go anywhere?
So that's like my one filter.
You know it's funny.
You mentioned those, the poststhat I do on social media, and I

(12:36):
always say that this is apodcast about podcasting.
For podcasters Like I make itvery clear and I try to use as
few words as possible withoutfail.
Every time I get a message froma bunch of people they're like

(12:57):
hey, I've got a really greatstory about how I overcame this
traumatic event in my life andhow now I'm doing this and it
makes me feel bad, but I have toprotect my audience.
That's not what they're showingup for.
So I was like hey, sorry, likeit's not really the focus of the
show.
Most of them totally understand, but sometimes people are like
are you kidding?
You don't want like a story ofpeople like you know, coming
back around and overcomingtrouble.

(13:18):
I'm like my audience isn't herefor that there are podcasts for
that, but it's not mine, and soagain, pre-launch launch,
whatever it is, protecting whatit is that you're doing is so,
so important, and I always sayyou don't owe anything to
potential guests, but you oweeverything to your listeners, so
don't try to cater for a guest.
Make sure you're catering foryour listeners.

Kevin (13:38):
Alex, what do you think is the proper perspective to
have when you're looking forguests for your show?
Do you feel like in most casesit's the podcaster is looking
for people to do them a favor,or do you feel like guests are
looking for podcasts to do thema favor?
Or is it best when it'sreciprocal and kind of equal on
both sides?

Alex (13:56):
The simple answer is it's best when it's the same on both
sides, everybody understandingthat like it's an opportunity
for both of us to be able to addvalue and serve together.
Sometimes I run into gueststhat are the most entitled
people I've ever met.
They're like I will do thehonor of being on your show.
I'm like, oh man, that seemsicky, right.
And the flip side is like, hey,I've got the best podcast in
the world, I would love to letyou on my show, right.

(14:16):
Like I've heard both sides.
But typically I'm like aresearch guy, so I always listen
to those guests or those showsand they're typically just not
the best on either side.
I find the people that are justkind, saying hey, I think that
there's a message that we couldshare together that will really
add value to my audience or thatwould add value to your
audience if it's the guestspeaking to the host.
But those are the ones that Ifind where there's that mutual

(14:37):
respect and understanding thatlike, hey, we're not here for
ourselves.
There might be something in itfor us, but we're here to help
somebody else.
Those are the type of peoplethat, personally, I like to have
on my show, with that humbleattitude and mindset, knowing
that we're showing up forsomething beyond just us.

Jordan (14:50):
Yeah, so when you're looking for podcast guests
because I mean podcasting madesimple, podcasting made simple
live you connect with so manypeople in the industry, so I
want to know what, to you, makesa great podcast guest.

Alex (15:06):
So for me, like Kevin said , this is probably the stressful
part, but I always try to knowthe direction of my listener,
like what are they learningright now?
To me, I always view my podcastlistener as having they're on a
transformative journey andthey're somewhere along the way
in that Like, what are theylooking for next?
And so when I'm looking at aguest, I'm thinking how does

(15:28):
this play a role in that journeythat my listener is on right
now?
And so I'm always kind of likethinking and strategically like
okay, that makes sense to behere.
I look for the person that canreally cover one topic very,
very well.
I don't mind a good story, butmy podcast isn't a storytelling
podcast.
So it's for podcast hosts,right, and podcast guests.
But so I don't need the storyof how you launched your podcast
in six months and how it'sgrown and what you're doing now.
That's great.
What I want to know is how youfigured out how to get one new
person to listen every day.

(15:48):
Just dive deep on that onething and can you talk about
that for 15 or 20 minutes,versus like hey, yeah, here's
the whole story of it, right, myshow is a little bit unique,
like that, and I love actionableadvice, so my podcast is full
of it.

(16:09):
I always try to make sure, like,is there a takeaway in here?
Like, if I listen to this 15minute thing, is it just
information or is it?
Hey, here's the three thingsyou need to do in order to
accomplish the same thing I did,and so I guess those are kind
of like masters of their craft,right?
They're people that are readyto give like a TEDx type of talk
.
Like those are very pointed,very deep ideas, right, that
people are sharing.
I'm looking for the someonethat's at that level of mastery
on whatever it is that theirunique topic is, to share that

(16:31):
with my listeners.

Kevin (16:32):
So are you keeping, like, multiple lists of potential
guests that you'd like to haveat any given time?

Alex (16:37):
Yeah, and because my podcast being in the industry, I
look at all the big conferencesand I go through and look at
every track, session or keynote.
I look at all their titles andthat's the way I find people.
So I'll look at that and that'skind of like my target list.
Those are the people that I'mreaching out to saying, hey, you
covered this.
You just did it in 30 minutes.
Could you drop it down to 15and do it without a presentation
?
And like that's kind of howI'll reach out to people.

Jordan (17:00):
Oh, that is really a good way to vet, like okay, is
this person someone worthlistening to?
Are they an expert on thesubject matter?
Like I hear people talk aboutbeing I forget the word.
Is like clip worthy?
Or like do they speak in bumperstickers?

Kevin (17:15):
Right, are they all?

Alex (17:16):
soundbites.

Jordan (17:17):
Yeah.

Alex (17:17):
Soundbites Okay, yeah, okay, I like bumper sticker
better though.

Jordan (17:20):
That's what I've heard.
I didn't make that up, I don'tknow, but yeah, that's such a
good way to vet if someone is Idon't know worth listening to.

Kevin (17:29):
Yeah, that does feel very practical because I imagine,
regardless of the genre of yourpodcast, there's probably some
sort of conference around thatcovers it.
Whether it be gardening or realestate or youth sports or
something, there's conferencesfor all of these things, and
whether you go to theconferences or not doesn't
matter.
They're going to publish thespeaker lists for all of them.
They're going to give you somesort of summary of what the

(17:51):
topic is, how this person isgoing to approach it and then
who that person is.
And if that person is alreadygiving talks and they've already
been vetted a little bit enoughto be speaking at a conference,
I imagine they might be a goodpodcast guest.
They probably guested on otherpodcasts already.

Jordan (18:08):
You could probably find those podcasts pretty easily
listen to them and figure out ifthey'd be a good fit for your
show.
Yeah, Okay.
So that kind of like ties intothe next point we have, which is
that, like, bigger isn't alwaysbetter.
David John Clark from the latebloomer actor.
He actually wrote in and said Iwas thrilled to land two big
name guests in my niche.
Both episodes did well anddelivered real value.
But it's discouraging when thesame guest shows up on a dozen
similar shows in the same weekbecause they're on a book or

(18:31):
course promo tour and he wantsto know, like, what's our take?
Should we decline thoserequests and invite them back
after the promotion blitz?

Alex (18:39):
I've got a lot of thoughts on this topic.
Kevin, I don't know if you hadsomething you want to jump in
with, but I might.
I'm going to try not tomonologue, but I might.

Kevin (18:45):
Well, before you monologue, let me let me hit on
some advice that I heard fromthe Tim Ferriss show.
So I listened to Tim Ferrissshow.
I think he's a greatinterviewer and one of the
reasons I like his interviewstyle is it addresses exactly
this.
He has people on his show allthe time that are on many other
podcasts and tell the from theperspective of what's something

(19:09):
unique that I can get them toopen up and share, that they're
not sharing, that otherpodcasters, other interview
people, other like news articleshave been written about them.
They're not touching andbecause of that it takes him a
long time to do the prep and theresearch ahead of time before
the guest comes on the show.
But he does find these uniquethings and oftentimes you'll
hear when Tim is interviewingpeople.

(19:29):
They'll be like, oh my gosh,I've never asked that before,
how did you know that?
Or who told you that?
They're the most interestingstories.
Because you can get thepromotional stuff.
You can get that anywhere.
Why do I go to the Tim Ferrissshow and listen to his
interviews?
Because he always bringssomething unique.
He gets something special outof the guests.

Jordan (19:45):
That's the way Sean Evans from Hot Ones is, too Like
these people.
You see them on all the latenight shows and stuff like that,
but then you also see them onHot Ones and it's like I'm going
to watch that one becausethere's going to be some like
weird stuff coming up from theirpast that I had no idea about.

Kevin (19:58):
Right, cause he sets their brains on fire with hot
sauce and they can't think andso they start oversharing.

Alex (20:06):
That's a good strategy.
Maybe any podcast host thatwants to have a unique interview
basically poison your guestswhen they're there and you
should be all right.

Jordan (20:13):
Give them some truth serum.

Alex (20:15):
You know, to piggyback off what Kevin just said, I agree
that you can get some of thesebigger names to break their
soundbites or whatever it isthat we want to call those right
.
We can get them to kind ofbreak their mold, but you have
to be up to the challenge andthat's going to be a lot of work
.
A lot of them are very much soprogrammed to go back to what
their publicist told them.
You need to say this, right.
I think back a few years to youmight remember this Matthew

(20:37):
McConaughey let out a bookcalled Greenlights and he did
like a podcast where he musthave gone on over 100 shows and
his publicist reached out to meand it really didn't fit my show
anyway.
But I was like, let me justlisten what he's saying on a few
different shows.
You could have copy pasted hisanswer on every show I listened
to.
And so I just politely declinedwith his publicist and I was
just like, hey, my show isn'tabout this and I know I'm not

(20:59):
going to get him to say anythingdifferent, like I'm just not
going to have the energy for it.
It's not like a pound the back,oh, but my point is, if you're
not up to that challenge, thendon't do it.
And the other problem I had Ihad friends that had him on like
multiple friends and they'relike it didn't grow my show at
all.
I'm like, well, he's just doinghis reps, he's not going to

(21:25):
share it, he's not going to talkabout it in his next movie, how
he was on your following,assuming that we'll get access
to that big following if we havethe big name on.
And the reality is, if you'rejust another one of the
interviews, they're not going toshare it.
And I'm not trying to be rudeby saying that, but at the same
time people can just look thatinformation up.
It's on other podcasts, right.
What I find to be the best typeof conversation I've had on my

(21:46):
podcast is the one that's trulyunique.
I can think at one point I hadlike a big name on my show.
The episode did okay.
The next week I had somebody on.
It was his first time ever on apodcast.
He had no social following atall, but the amount of listens
that that one had versus the onethe week before, it was like
triple or something like it wassomething just wild.
And the thing is I couldn'tfigure out.
I'm like, how come this famousperson couldn't get more people
to listen, but this guy who hasno name, no following, was able

(22:09):
to.
It's because the conversationwas absolutely just on par for
what I knew my listeners wanted.
There was no me trying to flexa little bit to have a bigger
name on, and so I'm not tryingto talk bad about celebrities or
more popular influencers oranything like that.
That's fine to have them on.
Just if we make that ourprimary goal, we're going to
miss out on the really raw andauthentic conversations that

(22:29):
listeners are actually showingup to learn something from.

Jordan (22:32):
That's a really good point.
I actually interviewed KateCasey.
She has a podcast about likereality TV and stuff like that
and she has a lot of celebritieson her podcast and so I had her
on to talk about how to getguests to share your episode and
the amount of acrobatics thatshe goes through and follow up

(22:52):
and making sure she has promoimages several of them, all the
ones they could want andeverything looks good and
everything's perfect.
It sounded exhausting.
And, yeah, you can get peopleto share things.
If you like, hire graphicdesigners to make everything
look amazing and you go throughall these like collaboration
techniques in Instagram, but Idon't know if it's worth it and

(23:13):
they still might not do it, youknow.

Alex (23:14):
Yeah.
My question to that is is itjust vanity at that point, like,
let's imagine I have a big nameon and they share it and it
gets this big spike in mydownloads and the next week it
goes back down because peopledidn't show up for me, they
showed up because they liked myguests.
That one week, like do I haveto take care of that fire for
the rest of my podcast now tokeep those downloads up?
Like I need next week's gueststo do the same thing and just
keep on going.
It turns into a bit of a vanitymetric.

(23:35):
And then the day what's thepoint of a download Like?
What is that number Like?
Does it have any real depth ormeaning to it beyond just me?
I'm like, I've got a bigpodcast right.
Like and listen.
If that is someone's goal, saythat that's necessarily wrong.
I just question how long youcan keep up with that.
And so for me, I don't careabout the one-off spikes.
Because I brought someonefamous on, I have more downloads

(23:55):
.
I more so want to know am Iactually serving the person I
set out to serve with my podcast?
And I probably sound repetitivesaying that today.
Everything for me goes back tothat.
Am I actually delivering on thepromise I'm making to somebody.
So I personally don't look atmy download numbers very much.
All I really care about is ifit's somebody reaching out to me
on an ongoing basis.
It's like a different personevery day telling me hey, this
really impacted my life, thisreally helped me, because if I

(24:17):
can see a podcast host or guestsaying that to me, it means I've
done my job for the day, versusjust trying to chase big
numbers.

Kevin (24:23):
I really like the story you shared.
The Matthew McConaughey, that'sit.
Yep, matthew McConaughey.

Alex (24:27):
That's it, yep, matthew, something.

Kevin (24:29):
You can tell I'm a huge fan of this guy.
Yeah, you are.
I know he's an interstellar.
I like that movie.

Alex (24:34):
That's my favorite movie, so, yeah, I'm with you All right
.

Kevin (24:40):
So I really liked that story because you kind of
surmised was that you justdidn't have the energy for it.
And I've heard I his show, havehad a lot of media training and
it's very, very difficult forhim to push through the media
training and try to get them tosay something that they're not
been instructed to say.
But that's what makes his showinteresting.

(25:02):
He's very good at it.
But it's a little bit likeyou've probably all seen some of
these Senate hearings when theyask very direct questions like
they'll read something andthey'll say give me a yes or no
answer.
They never get a yes or noanswer.
The person never says yes or nobecause they've been trained
that that is a trap and you willnot say yes or no.
Here's what you will sayinstead.
And they ask the question adifferent way, a different way,
but it is brutal.
It takes a lot of energy.

(25:24):
You have to be an expert at itand I think maybe the advice to
podcasters who are listening nowshould be like is that part of
your why?
Like why did you startpodcasting in the first place?
Is that part of it?
Did you want to become anexpert interviewer?
Did you want to be able to pushthrough media training.
Did you want to be able to makepeople feel uncomfortable in a
charming way that doesn't turnoff the audience that you're a

(25:46):
bully Like?
That's a specific skillset andif it's part of your why, then
go for it.
But oftentimes I thinkpodcasters just see a big name
or somebody who released a bookor something and they say, sure,
like I'm going to do it.
But you end up with an episodethat isn't different, it isn't
unique, it's not speaking toyour audience and it's really
not accomplishing any of yourwhys, of why you started a

(26:06):
podcast in the first place.

Jordan (26:11):
So we kind of touched on it earlier, but let's move on
to where to look for guests.
Where can I find a good guestfor my podcast?

Alex (26:16):
I'm going to immediately share something that is like not
well received usually.

Jordan (26:21):
Ooh, I love it, Hot takes.

Alex (26:23):
Typically people say start with your network, start with
your friends, start with yourfamily.

Jordan (26:27):
That's what I was thinking.

Alex (26:28):
So I get the notion of that, but I listen to new
podcasts all the time because Iwant to hear how it goes.
I can't tell you how many timesI listen to a podcast that
starts off with two peoplealready laughing when they hit
record.
I don't get it.
I'm like what's funny?
This is my childhood bestfriend and she just made a face
that only I would get and I'mjust laughing about it.
I'm like okay, as a listener,I'm now officially an outcast,
Like I'm not invited into theconversation.

(26:50):
This is an inner circleconversation and there's so many
times where I hear inside jokes.
People laugh.
I'm like I don't really havetime to explain that today and
it's like okay, well, you'remaking me feel like I don't
belong here as a listener and Ithink, especially at first, when
you're trying to build trustand establish trust with
listeners, you're doing theopposite by saying, hey, you're
kind of here but don't engagewith us.
We're having our thing here,right, and some people are good

(27:11):
enough to not do that.
Like at interviewing, havingconversation, I've actually
found that I'm not.
When I have guests on that arefriends and people I know like
they're going to cut up with me.
I'm going to tell an insidejoke that I know I shouldn't
tell, but I just can't helpmyself and typically I's a hard
thing to say and again, a lot ofpeople have given me kickback

(27:34):
on this.
But I always say, like yourfriends, your existing network,
your family, if you feel likeyou really needed it first, just
be mindful of the fact thateveryone needs to know like, hey
, we're going to leave a lot ofour inside jokes and inner
circle stuff outside of this andthis conversation needs
somebody else.
But that's why I likeimmediately starting to reach
out to who's the person that yousay is good for your listener.
It might not be your mom, right,and that's okay.

(27:54):
That it's not your mom, or yoursister, your cousin, it's okay
to start reaching out, and wetalked about earlier.
But that imposter syndrometells us, hey, we need our
friends and family first.
But the reality is I don'tthink you do anymore, Even as a
new podcaster, if you've got areal focus and niche for it.
A guest who understands thevalue of being a guest is going
to see that and see the value init from day one, even before
it's launched, they're gonna beable to say, yeah, I already
know, I want to be part ofsomething like that.

(28:15):
Listen, I know again, not apopular opinion.
That is my thought, and I'dactually love to hear what you
guys have to share on that aswell.

Kevin (28:21):
Yeah, well, let me, let me see if I can popularize it
for you.
What do you think yourconnected network to ask them if
they know anybody.
So they'd be one removed, butat least you'd still get that
warm intro to help build yourconfidence as a new podcaster.
So you can go to your bestfriend you can say hey, you know
I'm doing this podcast, I'msuper excited about it.
At some point I want to haveyou on, but I don't want just

(28:41):
the two of us cutting up insidejokes.
You know, to start off, I wantto kind of get my bearings
before we go into that.
Do you know anybody who I don'ttalk with on a regular basis
who you think might be a goodfit for the show?
What do you think about that?

Alex (28:50):
I like that.
That's a good idea.
I probably should have donethat when I started.
I just had my friends on repeatuntil people were like dude.

Jordan (28:55):
This is annoying.

Alex (28:57):
Granted, this is years back, but no, I think that's a
smart idea, asking.
That's like an extended network, right, it goes beyond your
existing network, so it's ofknow Jordan, so we can have a
conversation, not be too nervous.
I think that that's a reallysmart, easy way to get into it.

Kevin (29:12):
Yeah, one or two degrees of separation might be a really
good place to start.

Jordan (29:16):
Yeah, yeah, it reminds me of I don't know if it's this
way for everybody, but whenyou're in high school and you
get your first job at, like, thecoffee shop and your best
friend also is getting a job atthe coffee shop, and you two are
just having like the best timeand then the manager gets after
you and says hey, don't be sochatty.
Like need to present well tocustomers.

Alex (29:36):
This story seems very specific.
A lot of details, jordan Isthis like a friend that you know
that had this happen, or I'mnot going to go into specifics.

Kevin (29:42):
See, Jordan's had media training.
We can't break her.

Alex (29:46):
That's the problem.
Here I've been.
I've been looking for it thewhole time.

Kevin (29:50):
Yeah, I do like those shows where you do have people
who have that connection witheach other, but they're
typically like co-hosts, right?
Yeah, like, think about theSmartless guys.
It feels like they are allreally good friends in real life
.
I don't know if they are, maybethey're just really good actors
, but it feels like that andthey do have inside jokes and
they do carry these themes fromepisode to episode to episode

(30:11):
and so the longer you listen,the more you get that stuff.
But that wouldn't work if it wasjust a guest coming on for one
episode and then leaving.
That would feel like what Alexdescribed, as you just did an
episode and I felt like anoutsider.
I didn't get to pick up on thejokes.
So, as I'm processing thisinformation, I don't want anyone
to hear that we're saying don'tdo a podcast with your friend.
Absolutely do a podcast withyour friend.

(30:31):
But this is different than whatwe're talking about with a
friend coming in for one episode.
You have to approach it with anintentional mindset and make
sure that you're including youraudience in the conversation.

Jordan (30:41):
Yeah, we actually had a family message from Sarah from
Wish I'd Known Then and she saidwe prefer to feature people we
have a genuine connection with,whether through friendship and
online group or fellowpodcasters in the same or
related niche.
I think she's kind of bringingforth the point of where it's
good to have you know, friendsor acquaintances on your podcast
is that you have alreadyestablished a connection with

(31:04):
them and they're going to becomfortable with you.
But I think that's with acaveat of being intentional,
that they are a good fit foryour audience at the same time.

Alex (31:12):
Yeah, I agree with that and I think that, to kind of
further that point, youmentioned online groups.
I think that if you think ofsomething like LinkedIn, reddit,
facebook groups, specificallylike those are three places that
I personally suggest people togo, especially when you're like
newer.
I think it can work really wellto kind of see what's out there
.
Like is there even a group forthis which can also validate the
idea you have for your podcast?
Like, I know somebody had apodcast she started about

(31:33):
grooming golden doodlesspecifically.
Wow, that's very niche.
And so she's like I don't knowif anyone really likes that, but
she found a Facebook group thatapparently had a ton of people
and I don't know the number, butto see if there's any people in
there that might want to be onthe show.
Yeah, but maybe a pro move hereif you are like hey, I want to
kind of build a relationshipwith these individuals.

(31:54):
Like the LinkedIn groups, theReddit threads, the sub threads
is whatever it's called thesedays and the groups find the
admins, the people running itright, and like ask them hey, do
you today with you all?
I listened to the show, eventhough I know both of you.
I just wanted to get my myselfin the right mindset of this is

(32:16):
who I'm talking to and just tobe prepared.
So I always say like, even ifyou don't know somebody, find a
way to listen or watch somethingelse they've done, so you can
start building that synergybefore you even get to the green
room.

Jordan (32:27):
You can even just find great podcast guests by looking
through comments.
Who's really active in thatcommunity, who's really helpful,
who's bringing value to people,who's the one that's, like
always willing to jump in and,like, explain things to people.
Those are probably going to bereally wonderful guests for your
podcast, because they know whatthey're talking about.
They're eager to help.
Online communities are anabsolute gold mine, but not just

(32:50):
like posting hey, I have apodcast, who wants to guest on
it?
I think that that is a hugemistake that I see.

Alex (32:55):
Oh man, anytime I see that , I'm like what are you doing?
Do you want anybody Cause again?
That's where my cousin's at my18 year old cousin wants to talk
about basketball on yourfootball podcast.

Jordan (33:02):
So yeah, that's exactly what I see all the time and
people are like well, I don'tknow what's your podcast about.

Kevin (33:09):
Well, Alex, let me ask you, because I know you're not
going to talk about it unless Iasked you specifically, but you
run Podmatch, which is the guestbooking platform for podcast
guesting.
Tell me what is the differencebetween like what you do with
Podmatch versus some of theseother online groups and
communities that you mentioned,like LinkedIn, Reddit and
Facebook?

Alex (33:25):
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to even chat about
that.
I appreciate it.
Podmatch was born out of aplace, of me asking podcasters
what they were struggling with,and I go back to actually 2020,
right before the world shut down.
I was at a podcasting conferenceand when I got off stage, I
just asked anyone who talked tome, pen and paper in hand, what
are you struggling with?
And I continuously heardfinding the right guests for my
show and streamlining that wholebooking process.
And so when I went home this isa long story, short, but

(33:48):
ultimately ended up saying, okay, like what if we not reinvent
the wheel?
What's something that is doingthis right?
And I thought about like thedating app I guess industry, if
you'll call it that.
Listen, I've been married toolong to ever use a dating app.
So I had to call a friend andbe like can I watch you use your
app?
And he was super concerned, bythe way, because I just wanted
to watch how this works.
He goes like are you and Aliciaokay?

(34:09):
Anyway, we were fine, I justwas curious.
So basically, we came back anddesign was just this idea of a
dating app, but instead ofconnecting for dates, we can't
go for podcast interviews.
And that was the idea behindPodmatch.
And the whole thing is, there'sa lot of people who want to be
guests on podcasts, but they'renot all the right people, and so
the idea was can we somehowfind those right different
signals, like the basic ones?
Are we speaking the samelanguage?
Like literally the samelanguage?

(34:31):
Are we available at the sametime?
Do we have the same ideas?
Do we have the same focus?
And the whole thing was just canwe just put those right people
in front of each other, let themmessage back and forth and then
get it scheduled, while weautomate as much as we can in
between?
And so for me, that was a gamechanger, and still to this day,
I find 90% of my guests throughPodmatch, which it's weird for
me to say it is my own service,but that's where I'm looking for

(34:51):
my guests, because it has justsaved me so much time and energy
, which is the idea behind it.
And so that's what we've doneour best to be able to solve,
and the podcasters are using itor reporting that it's saving
them a lot of time and energyand they're finding that they're
connecting with the best guestsfor their show.
I mean, I think it's reasonablefor you to be using Podmatch to

(35:17):
find podcast guests.
I mean, we use Buzzsprout forhosting our podcasts, so that's
good to know.
I was very curious.
Well said, jordan, you're right.
It is okay for me to usePodmatch, I agree.

Jordan (35:27):
So Podmatch, part of the streamlining process of that is
the podcasters like fill outinformation about them as guests
.
They fill out information abouttheir podcast if they're a host
looking for guests, right, andthen do you match based on that
information.
Or is it a little bit deeperthan that?

Alex (35:36):
The matching goes a bit deeper than that, but that is a
big part of it.
That's kind of like the beyondare we speaking the same literal
language?
Right, like the basics.
Beyond that, it's now lookingat what a guest says they talk
about.
Because, yes, we ask guests, wehelp them build out a media.
One sheet that's very detailedand it explains hey, here's my
talking points, here's kind ofthe big ideas, here's what I
know a lot about.
And the host side they also saythe same thing and the system

(35:57):
can match them and we use a bitof AI in there that provides
what's called like a matchalignment.
So just in a single paragraph,it tells you hey, jordan's a
potential direction that youraudience would really like.
That's unique, that this personhasn't talked about before, but
it still stays within theirkind of zone of genius, if you

(36:17):
will, and so it kind of can helpwith that.
We never tell people to usethat.
We actually say the opposite,like don't just use this, these
ideas, but they should give yousome direction for your research
and your idea behind it.
So, yeah, the whole thing.
Once again, it's just likelet's just take care of the
stuff that's gonna take usforever.
One of my least favorite partsabout having a guest on that's
outside of Podmatch is I firsthave to figure out what they
want to talk about.
Right, like and does that align?

(36:38):
Because they released a book 20years ago that'd be really good
, but they probably don't wantto talk about that book anymore.
What are they doing now?

Kevin (36:42):
Right, this kind of was born out of the idea of, like,
what dating apps are doing forpeople we could do for podcast

(37:02):
guesting.
This is fantastic.
So it does seem very much like,just like with the dating
analogy you could go to bars,you could go to social events,
you could do all this stuff andyou it's just not efficient.
Right, and I think that's wherepeople were with the technology
solution, the same thing, and Ithink what you're saying is
tell me if I'm wrong, but thereare ways for you to guess

(37:23):
without using a service such aspod match.
But if you get serious about itand you want to be more
efficient, like one of thethings, that sort of hopefully,
for most people, the end gamewith dating is that you find the
one and you're done, but withpodcast guesting, like it goes
on forever, it's actually areally good business model.
You're in here.

Jordan (37:39):
Alex.

Alex (37:39):
Thank you Appreciate it.

Kevin (37:40):
Yeah, cause there is no.
I landed the guest.
My podcast is over.
It's like no, now you need theshow for next week.
You need another guest, youneed another guest, you need
another guest.
So at some point, I would thinkmost people who are running
shows for long periods of timeneed to find ways to become more
efficient, and that's when theyshould look for a service like
Podmatch.

Alex (37:58):
Right, Absolutely, and I know we're not talking about the
podcasting data today, but youall know it how few podcasters
are actually remaining active.
And it's because many peoplewere just like, oh, I'm just
kind of doing it my own way, I'mlike, man, do it your own way,
like you're spending 15 to 20hours a week to put in place, oh
yeah, and that really in theday.

(38:19):
Kevin, I think you said itperfectly.
That's what it is.
It's a project management tool,it's a productivity tool that
just helps streamline that sideof the process, right.

Jordan (38:26):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned how it streamlines
just even making a one sheet,which is basically like a
podcasting resume in a way, as aguest, as an expert.
And I remember when I made myone sheet and just Googling how
to make a one sheet for yourpodcast and like actually
putting it together and makingit look nice, I spent the entire

(38:46):
day on this stupid thing.
And so just the idea of havinga website where I'm just like
okay, I'm going to fill in thisfield, I'm going to fill in this
, and then it's just on awebsite and then not only that,
I also don't have to like, thenfind people to send my one sheet
to.
You're going to find it for me.
So yeah, I just think that's sogreat.
And that kind of ties into ournext point about, like, how much

(39:10):
research a host should do on aguest.

Alex (39:13):
I think it depends on the kind of the format of the show.
Example if you have a showabout like overcoming a
traumatic event in your life,you probably don't need to do a
whole lot of research because ifyou do too much as the host,
you're gonna sound insensitiveby asking detailed questions
that you spent too much timeorganizing right.
It's probably better for you tobe in the moment.
If someone's gonna like cry onyour show as they're talking
through this really tough time,you don't want to.

(39:42):
You want to be there in thatmoment with them.
So it depends on the kind of,the flavor of the show that
you're going for Me type A pointspeaker, right, like I want
like the three takeaways, like Iwant to do a lot of research.
So, example next week I'll beinterviewing Pat Flynn on my
show.
I'm currently reading his latestbook because I know that's what
we're going to talk about.
So I want to read his book andpull up the specific points I
know would be best fit for myaudience and I've already voiced
that with him.
Hey, we've got a tight 28 to 32minutes and I'm going to be

(40:04):
asking you questions that areinside the book and, like I've
made it very clear to him likeit's not gonna catch you off
guard.
We're gonna go straight intothat, knowing that.
That's my strength.
So I'm doing go listen to himon a few podcasts talking about
his book as well, so because Iwant to actually hear it.
So for me, I do a lot ofresearch because I know that my
type of show warrants the needto do that right and I need to

(40:25):
put my spin on it.
So I think for each it'sdifferent, but my least favorite
is when the host just saysnothing.
Like yeah, I do.
That is a pet peeve of mine.

Jordan (40:42):
Like the host.
Host goes oh wow, you have abook.
I'm like, of course they have abook.
Like they're best sellingauthor, Like did you not even
Google their name?
Like okay, this makes a lot ofsense coming from you.
I, at the very least, will goand look at someone's like about
them on their website, Right,and so I go on to pod match and
I look at Alex's about and hehas this like short little blurb
about you know how?
He's the co-founder of PubMatchand he's the host of this
podcast.
And then you get like anadditional about me and I wish

(41:05):
everyone did this.
I really, really want everyoneto listen very carefully.
You should have this on yourwebsite.
You click on this other aboutme and you get Alex's whole life
story, starting like age 10fishing golf balls out of the
lake.
And I have such a deeperunderstanding of how you work
and how you operate and whyyou're always just on and

(41:26):
talking to people and who youare as a person, because you had
this like gorgeous novellaabout your life on your About Me
page.
It was so good.

Alex (41:37):
Thank you, you just made my day.
I appreciate that.

Jordan (41:39):
It was awesome.

Kevin (41:40):
I haven't read this, so I'm going to go find it as soon
as we're done.

Jordan (41:42):
Seriously, I read it and I was like I didn't know half
of this about Alex.
And now I just I wish that Ihad talked to you more about
your past when we were athanging out at like podcast
conferences and stuff like that.

Alex (41:53):
I kept on telling you to ask and you just wouldn't,
wouldn't try.
I'm just kidding.

Jordan (41:57):
Jordan, are you going to ask about me?
Are you going to ask?

Alex (41:59):
about me at all, or are you just going to talk about
yourself more?
Okay, go ahead.
No, that's not what happened.
But you know, I think to me thetwo different like bios, if you
will, or descriptions about usone I call a podcast
introduction, and that'stypically what a host is going
to read and I think every guestthey need to develop that
because that's going to help thehost want to do their research
but also introduce you in agreat way and then you can have

(42:20):
your extended like here's myfull story if you want to hear
more about me.
But I think having thatintroduction is really key and
if you're a host and you'rethinking of having a guest on,
ask if they have that.
Don't leave it up to yourself tomake it.
I know AI can help with itthese days, but a lot of that
feels a little one-dimensional.
But I like when people justhave a really short, impactful
bio.
That's just enough to make thelistener say, ooh, this person
sounds interesting, because I'vealso heard the six-minute intro

(42:41):
on someone.
I'm like, my goodness, I don'treally care anymore.
Right, you lost me after your20th bestselling book.
We got to talk about more,right?
So I think it's important tounderstand the difference
between those two.
But I think everyone havingthat's important, and for
podcast hosts, especially newerones, if you can find guests
with introductions in a longerbio, that's going to help you so
much with framing a goodconversation.

Jordan (43:01):
Absolutely.

Kevin (43:02):
Let me ask you just to bring it back to kind of where
we started in this segment,which is how much research is
the right amount of researchbefore you reach out in the
first place?
No-transcript.

Alex (43:24):
Thank you for clarifying this.
This is really important,because you can waste all your
time or maybe use none.
I've tried both tactics.
For a while.
I kind of did more of the sprayand pray method, where it was
just like, if they say yes andthey bite, I'll do my research,
and so I did that probably thefirst year of my podcast, and it
never really worked for me andperhaps I'm just not a great
writer, but a lot of them I waseven sending like little pitch
videos and stuff, just keepingit really short, and again it

(43:45):
just I didn't see a lot ofreturn on investment of my time
for doing that, even though itwasn't like a lot of time.
It was a lot of quantity,though, and then I switched to
doing not all my research, I'dsay 30 minutes before I reached
out so I could have a few reallypointed things, and that almost
worked always, and if it didn't, it was a hey, not right now,
not a hey, leave me alone.
Never it was a hey.
This is really great.
I got a book coming out in sixmonths.

(44:06):
Reach back out to me then,because I think it just showed
that I'm willing, as a host, toat that point, but me spending,
I say, 30 minutes.
It was probably between 30minutes and 45.
I think that was probably aboutthe amount of time that I would
reserve my calendar to strictlygo in and just find as much
information as I could.

(44:26):
That would be helpful in theway that I'd reach out to them.
So to me I err more on the sideof let me do a little bit more
time and now that Podmatchexists, that is a bit easier.
If you're on a platform likethat, it's going to streamline
that time when you reach out.
For me that maybe takes 10minutes at most.
Now I'm probably between fiveand 10 minutes.
But if it's someone off, likePat Flynn, again, I wanted to

(44:46):
see his new book.
I read the introduction of hisnew book.
I saw that he was posting aboutit and talking about how he was
going to do a podcast tour.

Kevin (44:58):
So I mentioned all those things.
I love the receipt.
I love the receipt I was goingto read the book so I took a
gamble.

Alex (45:03):
I took an $18 gamble and I got it.

Kevin (45:07):
That's amazing.
Keep going with that.
I love the practicality ofwhere you just ended with that.
The receipt is beautiful.
What else should podcasters beincluding in outreach emails to
guests that they want on theirshow?

Alex (45:17):
Mentioning your audience is really important.
If they hear too much like hey,I'm a huge fan, I really want
you on the show Most peopleyou're reaching out to probably
feel that way, and if they'renot, somebody that has a lot of
fandom, perhaps that would scarethem off anyway, right.
But if you can somehow mentionlike hey, this is who my
listener is Like, this is theperson that we're going to be
able to serve.
So I've done this so many timesnow.
I can think of the first time Ihad oh, I struggle with his

(45:37):
last name, mike Michalowicz.
Profit First is his book, andhe's really well known in the
profit side of business andunderstanding how all that works
.
And the first time I reachedout to him, I actually read his
book before I ever reached out.
I bought it, reached out andthen did that.
I left him a review on I wouldlove to talk to you about this

(46:03):
and then sent the invitation and, sure enough, I got a response.
It was me just really showingthat like hey, it's not just I
loved your book and want to talkto you about it.
It was like hey, I enjoyed yourbook, these people would also
enjoy it.
I don't think they know aboutit, yet let's, let's bring you
on to actually have aconversation about it.
And so I always try to frame itas like hey, this is going to
grow your audience of people whowant to buy your book.
I think like I always try toposition it that way.

(46:25):
If there's an author beyondthat, I just try to find like
the I guess it's like the hook,I don't know.
Like I try to find the thingthat makes them say, yep, that's
exactly what I can serve.
Let's do it Like I'm lookingfor those little key pieces, and
that comes with a little bit oftime, a little bit of research,
yeah.

Jordan (46:40):
Yeah, that's a very like thoughtful way to front load
the value in your pitch email.
A lot of people are just likehey, I think that you know you
have a lot of like expertise andmy, my listeners would love to
hear from you, which is fine,like that's good.
But saying this thing that youdid really resonated with me

(47:01):
good, but saying this thing thatyou did really resonated with
me and I want to share it withothers.
Will you help me do this?
And I think that that is just avery intentional way to say
please come on the podcast andhelp me.

Kevin (47:11):
Yeah Well, and doing this succinctly, I have to imagine,
is a bit of an art form that youget better at over time, right?

Alex (47:18):
It definitely is One thing I didn't mention here.
Actually, kevin, like it is anart form.
I look at the guest and howthey engage online.
What I mean by that is if I'mon their Instagram and every day
they're posting selfie videos,my pitch to them is going to be
a selfie video of me walkingoutside.
Like they're walking outside,because I know that they will
receive that type of thing.
It shows like that's what theylike.
I have an example of a friendwho was a professional soccer

(47:40):
player or football playerbecause he was in Europe, and he
on his bio says I never checkmy email, don't email me.
And I had some people be likehow do you get this guy on your
show?
I've emailed him 100 times andyou won't respond.
I'm like well, he says hedoesn't check his email.
I'm like but I'll tell you whathe responds to every comment on
LinkedIn.
Like have you considered maybedropping him a comment on
LinkedIn?
Not doing the full pitch, butjust being like oh, I'd love to

(48:01):
chat with you.
Would you ever be open to that?
I can send you more details.
We got to meet people wherethey are instead of just saying
this is how I do it.
I'm married to my idea, likelook at them and see what
they're doing and mirror that.
It takes a little bit of timeand once you've kind of gotten
some reps in, I think yeah.

Jordan (48:16):
I think this is really smart and, additionally, it sets
you apart from other people whoare surely pitching the person
to be a guest on their podcast.
I actually had someone DM me onFacebook I am garbage at
checking my messages on Facebook, it's not a passion of mine and
I had someone DM me and it waslike the weekend and I was like

(48:37):
I'll try to remember to get tothis next week.
And then the next day they sentme this long voicemail and I
was like this is weird.
And so I listened to the voicememo and they were so excited
and passionate.
Just hearing his voice andhearing his passion and just
feeling his energy made me go.
Oh, I wish I had messaged himback immediately.

(48:58):
Honestly, if he didn't send thevoice memo, I don't know if I
would have remembered to do it.

Alex (49:02):
Yeah, and remind me never to send you a message on
Facebook again.
Sorry, I've done that.

Jordan (49:06):
I've told you I'm so bad at it.

Alex (49:08):
I'm like uh-oh, I'm like I've definitely sent you quite a
few messages on there.
That's why you don't respond.

Jordan (49:12):
I don't respond for like three or four days it.

Kevin (49:15):
It sort of reminds me of.
I was trying to get a hold of adeveloper once who developed
some technology that we wantedto do some sort of integration
with or utilize in some way, andI had the hardest time I
reached out to this personthrough email, through.
This was a while ago.
So Twitter all these differentways tried to reach out to this
person, never got a response,and everything that I saw posted

(49:36):
online was that this persondoesn't respond to anybody.
Like, don't take it personally,they're just a bit just removed
.
They do great work here, butthey're very hard to get in
contact with.
And finally, what I found wasthe nice thing about Twitter is
it shows you everyone whofollows them, and so I started
reaching out to themindividually to figure out have
you ever made personal contactwith this person?
And finally, one of the peoplewho I knew from that list wrote

(49:57):
back and said yes, I actuallyknow this person personally.
And I was like fantastic, canyou send them a message?
Can you do some sort of warmintroduction or something?
And within five minutes of me,asking them that they had
written an email.
And then I got an email backfrom the developer, like with
the other person CC'd and said,like you know, so-and-so, said
you're a good guy, what's up,what can I help you with?

(50:23):
I'm like, oh my gosh, they'rejust.
You know, we're very popular orjust very closed off.
I don't know what the story was, but it just like in order to
get in contact with that person,you needed a warm connection,
and so that was a strategy.
I used just that one time andit worked.

Jordan (50:28):
All right, so we talked about what to do when pitching
your podcast to guests.
Maybe some tips and tricks forthat, but what are some things
that you have seen?
Some common mistakes that youhave seen podcasters do when
pitching their podcast All right.

Kevin (50:41):
So this just happened last week or the week before.
There was somebody who pitchedme to come on their podcast.
But what their podcast wasabout actually was something I
could do, but I'm not the bestat it.
And I know somebody who'sactually really good at it and
that's Tom, my business partner.
He's really good at tellingkind of the origin stories of
our business and gettingentrepreneurs excited and and
all that kind of stuff.
I'm a little bit more likepodcast specific right, like I'd

(51:05):
be a good guest if you want totalk about podcasting, but if
you want to talk about businessat a higher level, tom is better
at that than I am.
And so I said you know,actually Tom would be the person
that you want to do.
And then they wanted to figureout how to get in touch with Tom
, helped them do that, gave himTom's email address, and then
they went like one step too far,which was thank you, can you
send an introduction email?
And like I couldn't do thatbecause I didn't, I didn't know

(51:25):
them.
Like how do I introduce thisperson?
Like we've only exchanged likethree messages at this point.
But I felt like that was a bitof a mistake, like they just
went a little bit too far, likeit didn't offend me or whatever,
but I did have to then writeback and just let him know like
I'm sorry I can't introduce youbecause I don't know you, but
Tom is a really nice guy and ifyou pitch him the same way that
you pitched me, I'm sure he'llbe responsive.
So I had to leave it at thatpoint.
But I do think there's a pointat which you can go too far.

(51:47):
When you're asking people forfavors, like connecting them
with other people or, you know,maybe not taking like no for no,
or I don't know, there'sprobably nice ways to say, hey,
can I follow up with you at afuture date, that wouldn't be a
mistake.
But pestering them afterthey've said no might be another
mistake.
But I'm sure Alex has some realpractical advice besides just
my recent experience.

Alex (52:07):
I got a good story here too.
This is with Seth Godin.
You all heard of Seth Godinbefore, so I had my podcast and
it went really well.
And this was years later andI'm back and I got really into
sending like video pitches.
So I sent him a video pitch.
He responded never send me avideo ever again.
And then he said but reach outin four months and I'll come
back on your podcast.
And I was like whew, that's awarning shot, right.

(52:28):
I later find out like he'swritten posts about like I don't
like audio, like when someone'strying to ask me a question, I
don't like video.
I want to be written so that Ican, at my own time, in my own
energy, I can respond.
I just didn't do enoughresearch.
So reaching out the way thatpeople like to be reached out is
important and, to Kevin's point, overstepping is.
It's a huge problem.
And actually, if you would havemade the introduction to Tom
because you all know each otherTom might have walked over to

(52:49):
your office and said hey, kevin,is this guy a good guy?
And you'd be like I don't know.
Tom probably would have said no, he would have had a better
shot reaching out directlyhimself versus you saying I
don't really know him, he justasked me to make an introduction
.
Like that doesn't help anybodyand so you have to be really
careful with that stuff.
The number one thing I find thatactually that people get wrong
is anything that's long-winded.
If it's a copy video, howeverit is.

(53:10):
If it's just like feeling likeI'm reading someone's book
report, I'm like man, like okay,you want me to be a guest on
your podcast, I think I get that, but my goodness, like I don't
need to know, like whatmicrophone to use to show up
with this.
Make sure I'm in a quietenvironment.
Like we haven't even gottenthat far yet and some people
just want to feel like they'reorganized and want you to see
that, but I don't think that'sthe place for it.
The best advice is to keep itshorter and not be so long

(53:38):
winded with our outreach topeople.

Jordan (53:40):
And also have it a little bit more personalized.
I'm not just talking about whenyou get that email and it's
like hi, jordan, I listened toDreamful and I especially loved
this episode.
I would like you to interviewthis author and my show's not an
interview show.
So if they had listened theywould know that's not an
interview show.
Right, setting that aside,those drive me absolutely

(54:02):
bonkers.
Like just just listen to oneepisode.
But also going with thepersonalization.
There's so much AI and spamgoing around right now where
people are just like coldemailing, cold emailing that if
an email looks like it waswritten by a bot, it goes
immediately to trash.
I will not read it.
So making sure that your pitchis like more, maybe a little bit

(54:26):
more casual, a little bit morehuman and in your voice, in your
tone, goes a long way, likealong with it being shorter and
everything like that, I mean it.
Just if you personally write itout and it's not just this like
template thing that you copyand paste it off the internet,
you are raising the odds thatyou're going to land the guest.

Alex (54:46):
Yeah, whenever hosts has asked me to come on the show and
they use like an AI.
One AI has like, differentflavors, right, the flavor right
now is explaining to you whoit's emailing what you do.
So it's like hey, alex, I'dlove for you to come on my
podcast.
You created Podmatch, a servicethat connects podcast guests
and friends.
I'm like I did and I know whatI do, and it's like one after

(55:12):
another, they all come through.
I'm like thank you forreminding me what I do.
I just totally're missing is ameaningful request, which is
like a real request saying hey,I want you to be a guest on my
show.
That's a request.
A meaningful request is givingmore to that.
I want you to be a guest totalk to me about the technical
side of podcasting.
I would have reached out to Tom, but I don't want the
entrepreneurship story.

(55:33):
Kevin, I want to really talkabout the podcasting element of
it.
Would you be interested incoming on my show to talk about
that?
Like when you kind of point itthat way, it's like okay, this
person understands what I do.
They understand about businesspartner, right, like it adds a
layer that makes it beyond justa request and meaningful request
.
But I get a lot of people likehosts ask me on their show and
they never actually have a clearask.
I'm like I'm not really surewhat you want Congratulations.

(55:53):
Do you want me to listen andreview the view, the show, like,
what are we doing here?
So it's important to make itvery clear.

Kevin (55:58):
Yeah, well, and then it just feels like a bigger task,
right, like I've agreed tosomething that I don't really
know what I agreed to, and sothat just feels bigger.
It feels like, oh, now I've gotto help them kind of figure out
how to make a compellingepisode as opposed to no, they
were very specific, they knowexactly what they want, and
here's the part that I play init.
That doesn't feel that big of adeal, right?
Can I give them 30 minutes forthat?

(56:18):
They seem to be on point.
I'm just stepping in for 30minutes.
Yeah, I'll tell you, it feels alittle bit like pet peeves that
we can share.
My pet peeve when receiving aguest request is if it has a
Calendly link in it.

Jordan (56:29):
Really.

Kevin (56:30):
So even if they write a great request to come be on
their show and then they say,like, if you can do it, here's a
link to my Calendly where youcan schedule it To me, that
feels like they're saying I wantyou to do me this favor to come
be on my show.
And to Alex's point earlier,this should be mutual, like I'm
doing them a favor, they'redoing me a favor, so I get that.
But it does feel very much likethey're immediately asking for

(56:50):
me to do it at their convenience.
So here's my availability.
You slot in wherever you canand I don't like that.

Alex (56:57):
So I used to be the guy who sent the calendar and I did
that with Adam Curry, who juststopped responding.
When I sent the calendar andhis next episode of his show
that he does with his wife, hesaid believe it or not, I got
this pitch from this guy namedAlex Sanfilippo.
He goes what a jerk.
He sent me his calendar in itand just like, went off on it
and she's like I think you'rejust being old school hun or
something like along those lines.

(57:18):
I emailed him back because I'vebeen listening to his podcast.
I was like, so sorry.
I'm like I was just trying tomake it easy for you.
I'm like if you just give me afew dates and times that work
for you, I will move my schedulearound.
And then he sent me backsomething.
He's like oh thanks, man, hegoes and I'd love to get this
scheduled.
Do you want me to suggest somedates or do you want to suggest

(57:40):
some?
I can make it work.
Either way is now what I do,and that's not in the initial
pitch, that's after we've agreedthat we're going to do it.
But then I ask the guests, likewhat do you like?
Or sometimes the host yeah,I've been.
I'm in both seats.

Jordan (57:59):
And I always try can do it that way.
I love that.
Oh man, I really thought thatyou were going to be like both
of you, but especially Kevin.
I really thought that you weregoing to be the streamlined like
don't make me go back and forth, I don't want to hit reply,
just let me do it, get it done,cause that's how I am, like if
someone sends me a pitch emailand they include the Calendly
link.

Kevin (58:24):
I'm like, thank God, I don't have to like talk to them
again, I can just click this andget it on the schedule.
Well, once in a while, just forfun, if somebody sends me a
guest request.
I have done this a few times.
It never actually turned into apodcast interview, but I will
write back immediately, likewithin two or three minutes of
getting the email.
If I catch it in time, I'llwrite back and I'll say
absolutely available right now,let's get online.
And then they'll write backlike two hours later.
Like so sorry, I missed that.

Jordan (58:39):
I just like well, I guess you missed your chance.

Alex (58:42):
That's kind of like you being mean, I don't know Like
you're seriously.
You mean you would do it.
Like you would do it right thenif they would.

Kevin (58:50):
I would do it in those couple instances.
I would do it because here'sthe thing Like oftentimes, I
don't know these people, and sodo I want to go ahead and block
off an hour on my calendar twoweeks from now for something
like.
I don't know if you're actuallygoing to show up, I don't know
if it's worth my time, I don'tknow if it shows any good, but
I'm actually free right now.
Like I'm in between tasks.
I don't have anything going forthe next 30 minutes.
You just caught me at a greattime and so I'll fire back.

(59:10):
Let's do it right now.

Alex (59:14):
I would also pretend like I didn't see your email for two
hours.

Kevin (59:21):
Like haven't done enough research on this person, yet Let
me jump off the outline realquick.
I know we're getting a littlelong on time here, but, alex, I
want to get your thoughts whenwe have you here, like, what do
you think about some sort ofagreements or contracts or
something, these guestarrangements that sometimes
people want you to sign beforeyou come on their show?

Alex (59:38):
So the release form right.

Kevin (59:40):
Release form.

Alex (59:40):
There you go.
Yeah, the hosts typically havethem as the platform.
I think that they're good as asafeguard.
I don't know if it's ever savedanybody or hurt anybody or
anything like that.
I've had one on my show foryears now and I've had one
person ever say hey, I don'tfeel comfortable signing this.
Which just let me do a littlebit more research on them.
I just wanted to be like whythat's weird, and I looked
around.
Turns out they had done somesketchy things, stolen some

(01:00:01):
money, and they just didn't wantto be in any sort of contracts
or anything like that.
So we ended up not movingforward, which I felt protected
from them.
Okay, I missed this detail.
This was like an actual FBIreport on this individual, so I
probably should have caught thatthe first time, but that never
had a problem with To me.
I don't really care the peoplethat I have on my show.
I've done enough research toknow there's never going to be
an issue For most of them.

(01:00:22):
I'll put it in front of them ifthey want to sign it, fine.
And the reason for that, Iguess, is it's the platform.
Right, you wouldn't go to asports complex and not sign a
waiver of some sort right Gottaprotect the platform.
I think it's really good forshows that maybe get into
politics or get into some moredebatable type things.
Right, I'm talking aboutpodcasting.
It's not like it's anythingthat someone's later on going to
be like.
I don't want you to quote meabout being a guest, right?

(01:00:44):
I?
don't foresee that happening.
But someone is like hey, I'mreally right wing, and then you
have someone on later who'sreally left wing.
They don't like they're goingto be.
Like, take forms, I sign themwhen I go on as a guest.
I don't.
I've never had a problem withit.

Kevin (01:01:01):
And so is that what the form is basically doing is it's
basically saying that thecontent that we're recording
together belongs to the show,and what we choose to do with it
or not do with it is at ourdiscretion.
Is that basically correct?

Alex (01:01:14):
And a lot of them now protect the guest as well.
So it's also like hey, this isalso for you, that other people
are not going to take thisepisode like it belongs to the
show, the platform type of thing.

Jordan (01:01:22):
You know with like protecting your podcast.
And your guest, david at noStroke Podcast, wrote in and
said love your podcasting tips,especially the one about
skipping lackluster expertinterviews.
And he said after a few duds, Inow tell guests the recording
may appear as a full episode,bonus content or a brief snap

(01:01:46):
cast of key soundbites.
I love this Giving yourselfpermission to say you know what,
if the interview is not goodand if it's not serving my
audience, I'm giving myselfpermission to let it go.
And yeah, maybe we can onlyclip a couple 30 second things
out of this, but that's whatit's going to be.

Kevin (01:01:57):
You know, and I do like the idea of having that in
writing.

Jordan (01:02:00):
Yeah.

Kevin (01:02:01):
It's nice to Alex's point , I've never signed one.
I've been on a few podcasts.
I've never signed one.
I did have somebody asked meonce to sign one and I said I
don't sign them Not because I'magainst them, though.
It was just like literally Idon't sign them.

(01:02:21):
And they said that's fine,don't worry about it.
And so we didn't.
I'm okay with the idea, buteven if you don't do a release
form, I like the idea ofcommunicating clearly, upfront
that I'm going to do my best forthis to be an amazing episode
and I hope you're going to beproud of it and I'm going to be
proud of it.
But I can't promise that we'regoing to see what we get.
Yeah, to me as a podcast host,we owe our listeners everything
but we don't owe guest orpotential guest anything yet.

Alex (01:02:43):
Yeah, and the thing is, if they show up with the wrong
mindset, attitude, sharing thewrong stuff, it's better just
not to have the episode getreleased, because if it doesn't
serve the audience, then it'sbetter for both of you.
Really, right, they're the onesthat trust you to be the
gatekeeper of their ears.
Oh, that's so good, right.
So if it's not the right stuff,don't share it.
I've had three episodes of myshow in the last I don't know
how many years now, but a lot ofyears but I had three that

(01:03:03):
couldn't air, knowing that thisis not going to help and as a
person I'm naturally a bit of apeople pleaser, so it's not
super easy for me to do that butto, and I don't think it's
actually helped the audience soI'm not going to use it.
In all those cases I said ifyou'd like the audio, let me
know and you can use it howeveryou'd like to.
But I just knew my platformwasn't a fit, and that happened

(01:03:23):
three times.
All three times are veryuncomfortable for me, but
sometimes the stuff just doesn'twork.
Even if you do all the research, you do it all right.

Kevin (01:03:37):
Sometimes it's just't imagine.
In your case specifically,anyway, it's nothing to do with
you being ugly or just beingpetty or anything.
It's wanting to serve youraudience first and looking out
for the interests of bothparties.
Like, equally.
Like, I imagine, alex, justknowing you, if you had a guest
on your show and you wereamazing, let's just say you
knocked it out of the park, youasked great questions and you
followed their stories and allthis kind of stuff, but at the

(01:03:57):
end of the day you feltuncomfortable about the way that
they came across, like youdidn't think it put a positive
light on them.
I imagine you would do the samething.
Correct, and so it's not alwaysone-sided, but yeah, we should
have some confidence in that aspodcasters, that this should be
a win-win for everybody when youguess, and it should be fun, it
should be something that you'reexcited and it just doesn't
always work out for one reasonor another and there's no finger

(01:04:17):
pointing that's necessary.
It can just be a hey, sometimeswe hit it and sometimes we miss
it.
Let's just keep moving on andmaintain the relationship and do
the best you can.

Jordan (01:04:26):
Yeah, and it sucks when that happens for both parties,
but you can pretty much ensurethat that doesn't happen as long
as you follow the tips that wehave in this episode about
finding the good guest andvetting them.

Kevin (01:04:39):
Yeah, we want to minimize that.

Jordan (01:04:41):
Yeah, you're going to minimize it, so definitely take
note and you shouldn't have todeal with that.
It's time for Sound Off, asegment where we read your
family messages.
So, alex, do you want to kickus off with a message from
Gainesville, florida?

Alex (01:04:57):
Sure, gainesville, florida , is the person's name, I
believe, or it might be theirlocation.

Jordan (01:05:01):
I'm just kidding, I know it's a location.

Alex (01:05:04):
Hey team, love the podcast .
I'm getting airs in all theways I try to play my podcast
and or when I go to download itall through Apple podcast or any
other users saying the samething.

Jordan (01:05:13):
I have seen this come up a couple times and what it
usually is is if I'm in an areawith bad cellular data or I just
need to restart my iPhone Idon't know what it is Every now
and then you just get like theloading thing and it won't
actually play.

Kevin (01:05:28):
I can tell you this is somebody runs a hosting provider
.
It's not a widespread issue,because if any of our podcasts,
for whatever reason, are notplaying through an app as
popular as Apple podcasts atscale Like, we would hear about
that within seconds, and so itis something with your specific
configuration and so try force,like restarting the app, like
restart your phone, maybe switchnetworks or something like that

(01:05:49):
.
But my guess is my strong hunchbased of 15 plus years of doing
this is it's something going onon your device specifically.

Alex (01:05:56):
Yeah, apple in general.
They've been letting out a lotof updates, and so Apple
podcasts have been updated anumber of times.
So if you have one that'sslightly outdated you don't have
automatic update on, you needto go update it, cause at some
point it's.
I don't know why, how itchooses, but it just won't load
some podcasts, so you have tojust go into the app store and
do one of the updates.

Jordan (01:06:14):
Ah, that's a good tip too.
All right, Fletch, from theMango Times.
Switching to Buzzsprout hasbeen a game changer.
Combined with the blog,newsletter and podcast, you've
reopened the world of podcastingwith killer tools and ideas,
Thanks.
Thank you, Fletch.
Your question is my personalwebsite, nearly 30 years old, is
still my main brand hub.
I host each episode onBuzzsprout, then repost the same

(01:06:35):
show notes on Squarespace.
Most people don't listen on thesite.
It's just an easy landing spotfor newcomers who aren't podcast
savvy.
Should I keep mirroring fullshow notes in both places or
focus on Buzzsprout and leaveonly a basic episode page on
Squarespace?

Kevin (01:06:51):
I think it comes down to efficiency.
I don't think there's not aright or wrong here.
It's kind of like what you likeand how much time you have,
cross posting, you know,buzzsprout is going to do it for
you automatically on theBuzzsprout site that we give you
, and then if you have the timeand energy and you like
reposting on your Squarespacesite, nothing wrong with that.
But if you're getting to thepoint where it's just feeling
like extra work every week and Idon't love it, I don't think

(01:07:12):
you're probably getting a hugebenefit from it.
You're not going to get like ahuge SEO boost from it or
anything like that, and so Iwould say I'd put it in the
category of not necessary.
But if it does something foryou that you like, nothing wrong
with it either.

Jordan (01:07:24):
I have Squarespace and I actually use the Buzzsprout
embed player and I use it theseparate player for each episode
.
And it's nice because I justplug in that embed player code
into Squarespace.
And what I love about it isthat every time I publish a new
episode, it will automaticallypopulate that episode into
Squarespace with the full shownotes.

(01:07:46):
So I don't do anything and myshow notes are there on my
website.
So that's something that youcould consider doing as well,
unless you want to have aseparate web page for every
single episode.
But I don't know.
I don't know if that's reallynecessary.
You could also have themultiple episodes in one player
at the top and then do theseparate one below that too on
your Squarespace site.

(01:08:06):
That's a little hack you coulddo in case you want people to be
able to scroll through all thedifferent episodes.

Kevin (01:08:11):
Jordan, with all the options, so many options Just
tell me which one to do.

Jordan (01:08:14):
Just tell me, I got to overcomplicate it.

Kevin (01:08:17):
I know you're like Baskin Robbins 32 flavors of podcasts.
Embedding Jared from heyChaplain, the police wellness
podcast, wrote in because Albanin our last episode said which
podcasts have been mostinfluential for you.
Well, jared said it's thehistory of Rome, which started
in 2007.
It was a big move for me movingfrom radio to podcasts.
I wonder, is that as apodcaster or was that as a

(01:08:38):
podcast listener?
But I agree there was something.
There was some podcast episodethat I listened to that like I
never went back to talk radioafter that.
I used to be a big talk radiofan, but as soon as I started
getting podcasts and then like Ican control what I listened to
on demand it wasn't based on thetime of day that I was in the
car I never went back and so itsounds like history of Rome was
that show for him?

Jordan (01:08:58):
I think I wonder if this podcast is the source of that
viral thing of how men thinkabout the Roman empire at least
once a day.
Have you heard of that?

Kevin (01:09:07):
I don't like that meme because it doesn't make me.
It makes me feel like less of aman, because I don't think
about the Roman empire ever.

Alex (01:09:13):
Yeah, I'm right there with you, kevin.
So thank you for saying that,cause I was like, oh, am I the
one?

Kevin (01:09:17):
I know I'm being super vulnerable right now, but I
guess I'm not much of a manbecause I never think about it.

Jordan (01:09:22):
I mean it was on TikTok, so it must be true.

Alex (01:09:24):
Derek, producer of Intentional Teaching, when it
comes to a podcast that wasinfluential, talks about Dolly
Parton's America, which I'venever heard of, and Derek points
out that it's not like acelebrity podcast.

Jordan (01:09:35):
Yeah, alex, you're in the same boat as us, because in
our quick cast last week we werelike I've never listened to
Dolly Parton's America and sowe're kind of getting shamed
here.
So I'm glad you're in the shameboat with us.

Kevin (01:09:45):
Alban played a game with us where there was like hit or
flop or something, oh yeah, andI called it a flop and people
didn't like that and it won abunch of awards and so somehow I
missed this podcast.
But I'm going to have to listento it now and I'll probably
come back and say it was awesome.

Alex (01:10:00):
So Derek pointed out a second podcast, actually, uh,
the memory palace.
But the interesting thing thatI like about this is it says the
Derek said it's the one podcastI listened to at one X speed.
So it's gotta be a challengeEither someone that is like
talking really fast, or it's alot of information, or it's
really really good, so I'm.
That makes me interested inchecking out the Memory Palace.

Kevin (01:10:20):
I have never found a podcast that was so good.
I had to slow it down to 1x.

Alex (01:10:25):
I mean 1x speed is not slowing it down.
That's like as prescribed.

Kevin (01:10:29):
Trust me, kevin, that's slowing it down.
It is All right, derek,challenge accepted.
I will listen to the MemoryPalace and we will see at what
speed I report back to you with.

Jordan (01:10:39):
That is really funny, that that is like hey, you can
listen to this podcast at 1xspeed.

Alex (01:10:45):
It's like ooh, really, I'm in a shirt that says people
listen to my podcast at 1x speed.
I think that that would be likea killer shirt.

Jordan (01:10:50):
Okay, podcast movement, make it happen.

Kevin (01:10:52):
Oh my gosh, here's a side effect.
There's a lot of people who Ilisten to their podcast every
single week and then I only seehim once or twice a year at
podcast conferences.
And the first thought I have isyou're drunk because they're
talking so slow.
I'm like, how much have you hadto drink?
And they're like it's nine inthe morning, kevin haven't had
anything to drink.
I'm like why are you talking soslow?
And it's just because I'malways used to hearing them at.

(01:11:14):
You know, 1.75 X.

Alex (01:11:16):
So I used to.
I got to share this because Ithink this will, this will get
cut out for sure.
But I used to when I was doinglike prepping for my guests I
was going to bring on.
I'd want to listen to a bunchof their content.
So I'd listen to it at like twoand three x speed.
But then when we get to thegreen room, I feel like I'm like
whoa, you talk slow.
No, I've been listening them onfast forward and that's not a

(01:11:37):
good time, painful as that isfor me, so I can be prepared for
their actual cadence.

Kevin (01:11:40):
How about that Bonus tip?

Jordan (01:11:43):
Bonus tip.
All right, so on our next mainepisode in two weeks, we will
discuss podcast equipment and wewant to know what podcast gear
do you recommend.
So, to send in your responses,tap the Texas show link in the
show notes and we will work itinto the next episode.
Alex, thank you so much againfor joining us, and to all of

(01:12:07):
you, thanks for listening andkeep podcasting.
Here's the deal.
Last time I was in Jacksonville, we did an escape room together
and I feel like all theseescape rooms that I've been
doing recently has, like finallyreally paid off.

Kevin (01:12:20):
Yeah, you knew it would at some point.

Jordan (01:12:22):
At some point and it came sooner than I thought my
family and I we went on a tripto Los Angeles and unfortunately
our plane landed at like nine30 in the morning and I couldn't
check into our Airbnb untillike 4 PM and we're not just
going to like chill at theairport all day long.
And so I looked up one of thoselike luggage storage places and
I found one that had like areally nice website, really nice

(01:12:45):
app, and it was around thecorner from Hollywood, the
Hollywood Boulevard, and so wego to this place and I think
it's a luggage rental like shop.

Kevin (01:12:55):
Wait, not a luggage rental, a luggage storage.

Jordan (01:12:59):
Yeah, sorry Like yeah, like you rent a storage spot,
right?
Yeah, and it's actually ahostel.
It's like bunk beds everywhereand it's like a bunch of dudes
in their 20s who, like you know,smell a little bit.
You know what I'm talking aboutI'm catching the vibe.

Kevin (01:13:14):
I've never been to a hostel.

Jordan (01:13:15):
Yeah, it's like very hippie, I don't know.
Yeah, it's like very hippie, Idon't know.

Alex (01:13:19):
They think about Rome every day.
For sure.

Jordan (01:13:26):
Oh for sure, Every day Anyway.
So the guy like he didn't seemto know what I was talking about
at first, when I was like hey,I bought storage for our luggage
.
And he was just like oh yeah,uh yeah, just go ahead and like
take a photo of your luggagebefore I put it in.
And I was like that's kind ofweird.
And so I took a picture of ourluggage and he was like, all
right, I'll see you later.
And I was like okay, and so Ihad the app and it had like lots
of great reviews.
I was like this is probablyfine.

(01:13:47):
And he was supposed to text melike some information about it
and he just never did.
But I was so busy with myfamily that I didn't think about
it.
And so at the end of the day,it's finally time for us to go
to our Airbnb.
And so I call the Lyft and wego back to this hostel and the
door is locked and there's likeno one in there and I was like

(01:14:09):
that doesn't feel right and allof our stuff's in there,
everything, because we just likewe're walking around and
sightseeing and I was just likethis cannot be happening.
Luckily, the door was lockedwith a code and I remembered the
code from like earlier and so Ipunched it in and we got into

(01:14:30):
the hostel.

Kevin (01:14:31):
Wait, did they give you a code earlier, or did you just
like watch them?

Jordan (01:14:34):
It was like a code earlier, but I wasn't sure if it
was like a one-time thing.
Luckily it wasn't, and so I gotin and there's like no one
around to help.
There's like a couple dudessleeping in like one of the
bunks down the thing and so Igot to find our luggage.
I don't see anyone around theguy that was there initially
wasn't around and I've got mykids and my husband with me.

(01:14:54):
We go back further in thehostel and I see these cabinets
all with like locks on them andthey're all numbered and I was
like okay, these must be thestorage cabinets, but which
one's mine?
And so this is where the escaperoom knowledge kind of comes
into play.
I had to like walk around thehostel and I'm looking at all
these like notepads and papers.

(01:15:17):
I'm looking on like a desk.
I don't see anything.
And then I see a scrap piece oflike yellow notepad paper and
it has my name written on it andit says seven and 12.
I'm like great, I know whatlockers I'm in, I'm seven and 12
.
And so I go and I find them andlike there's zip ties shut and
I'm like I need something to cutthese out.
And so I walk around and I finda knife in the kitchen and I

(01:15:38):
like go and I cut our luggageout and like there was no one
there.

Kevin (01:15:43):
There was no one there to like help us.
Was that your luggage when youopened seven and 12?

Jordan (01:15:46):
Yes, it was our luggage, and so I got it out and we got
in our lift, thank goodnessCause you know they leave after
like five minutes if you're notthere.

Kevin (01:15:52):
You're lucky because, alex, I don't know if you know
this, but the last time Jordanand I were in an escape room
together, one of our clues was aset of wire cutters.

Jordan (01:15:59):
Yeah.

Kevin (01:16:00):
And I was like, oh, I felt a wire earlier behind this
painting thing and I pulled thewire out and Alban's like well,
I'm going to cut it.
And Jordan's like yeah, cut it.
And so we cut it.
And then the lights go out inthe room.
We cut a live wire and theycome over the speaker.
They wires coming out of wallsand we're like sorry.
Well then, don't give us wirecutters jordan.

Alex (01:16:23):
I like there's actually even a timer in this, like it
was totally an escape room, likebecause the escape rooms are
like you've got this much time,like you had five minutes.
Sure it was in the form of alift driver, lifts pulling.

Jordan (01:16:31):
It's the same thing, though I'm sure I'm
incriminating myself right nowlike I don't know if I broke any
laws or not, but I stole my ownstuff.

Kevin (01:16:40):
So I don't think there's breaking and entering in a
hostel Again.
I've never been to a hostel,but I feel like it's kind of
like a it's it's like open,right yeah.

Jordan (01:16:47):
But just thinking about it, like I could have stolen
everyone's luggage, but I didn't.
I only took mine.
I don't want to offend anyCalifornia, so I think you're
fine, it's probably fine, I'macross state lines.
Anyway, I was super thankfulfor all of our escape room
trainings that we've had.

(01:17:08):
It came in handy.

Kevin (01:17:09):
You got to put in the work.
You never know when you'regoing to need it.

Jordan (01:17:11):
Yeah.

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