June 13, 2025 • 23 mins
What determines whether celebrity podcasts succeed or fail, and what can indie podcasters learn from their mistakes? We explore the surprising patterns behind celebrity podcast success stories and the ever-growing celebrity podcast graveyard.
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Episode Transcript
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Alban (00:00):
All right.
So Mark Maron, one of the, inmy mind, most iconic podcasters,
kind of the one who started thewhole open, authentic
conversations format justannounced he's shutting down his
podcast.
It's 1,500 episodes, heinterviewed President Obama in
2015.
Kevin and I actually saw him atPodcast Movement and just said
(00:20):
they're burned out, they'reshutting down the show.
So it got me thinking, Jordan,because you and I have had these
conversations about thecelebrity podcast shows, or, as
you called it, the celebritypodcast graveyard, and so
sometimes shows shut down, butmostly like they really don't
last all that long.
Jordan (00:38):
Yeah.
Alban (00:38):
So I did a deep dive.
Jordan (00:40):
Oh boy.
Alban (00:41):
And that's what I want to talk about during
Kevin (00:43):
Are you going to blow our minds?
Jordan (00:44):
Buckle up.
Alban (00:46):
Because I was like what's the angle for celebrity
podcasts?
Nobody really cares about thembeyond you know the few people
who listen before they shut down.
And then I was thinking youknow the celebrity podcast, wait
, wait, wait.
Kevin (00:57):
What you're just going to blow past that like that.
We all accept that as a truestatement.
I think nobody cares aboutcelebrity podcasts, except a few
people that tune in whenthey're shutting down.
Alban (01:06):
The ones that don't catch on.
They really just are used asexamples of, like, what doesn't
work in podcasting.
Jordan (01:11):
Yeah, that's true.
Kevin (01:12):
Okay, but like, let's be fair, even celebrity podcasts
that don't catch on probablystill do way more downloads than
a typical podcast, than anaverage Joe who's just starting
a podcast and does it for acouple of years and maybe works
up to two 300 downloads perepisode, which is really great.
Like I don't know.
Jordan (01:30):
Kevin, it's not about the downloads, it's about
retention.
Alban (01:33):
Let me say it this way Our audience probably doesn't
truly care too much aboutcelebrity podcasts.
We think that's the Buzzcastaudience.
Yeah, the Buzzcast audience,the thousand true fans that we
have that listen to this show.
Kevin (01:48):
Right, okay.
Alban (01:49):
But then I was thinking, you know, for a lot of indie
podcasters, what we imagine isholding us back is actually what
celebrity podcasters have.
You know, we think I had alittle more time If I had a
budget, if I knew the rightproduction team, if maybe I got
a couple high-profile guests, ifI knew the right production
team, if maybe I got a couple ofhigh profile guests, then I'd
be good, then it would all workand it would all fall into place
.
And I was like that's actuallywhat the celebrity podcasters
(02:11):
have.
They have teams, they have timebecause they've been paid to do
it.
Most of them have famousfriends they could invite on the
podcast and yet like half ofthem flop.
And so my deep dive was whatdetermines whether or not a
celebrity podcast makes it orflops?
And then what can we learn asindie podcasters?
Jordan (02:30):
Love it All right.
Kevin (02:31):
Okay, I'm buckling up.
Alban (02:33):
And so we've got a game.
Jordan (02:35):
Yes, I love games Okay.
Alban (02:37):
The game is because of our celebrity podcast graveyard,
Jordan.
We're going to call thispodcast hit or closed casket.
Is this a hit or did it flop?
Kevin (02:47):
Closed casket is so open caskets worse.
Neither.
Neither it's good, but I don'tknow.
It just hit me sideways.
Open casket.
Can we call it like celebrity,like hit or flop?
Alban (02:58):
We can we can call it something boring.
It's the podcast celebritypodcast graveyard.
The celebrities aren't dead,their shows are dead.
Kevin (03:05):
All right, okay, all right, I'll get in the right
state of minds.
I just don't like, I don't know.
The morbid imagery was nothitting me right.
Jordan (03:12):
But I can get, just don't think about it.
Put it aside, all right, justdon't think about it.
Alban (03:16):
All right, here we go.
First, one podcast.
Very much, that's what Kevinhas to say.
Now I'm going to tell you abouta celebrity podcast.
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about it and you guys
determine whether or not it wasa hit or it was a flop.
Number one BTF with Marc Maron,the one we started with, been
going for 15 years, kind ofkicked off.
This like authenticconversations poured into Marc
(03:38):
Maron's garage.
They had the secret service onhis roof.
When he had President Obama, hewas inducted into the Podcaster
Hall of Fame.
Podcast hit or I didn't like itvery much.
Jordan (03:48):
I'm going to speak up first.
I think that this is a hit justbecause it has that Apple
Silicon Valley beginnings ofstarting in a garage and then
exploding into popularity.
I didn't actually listen to it,but I really liked Marc Maron
in Glow, which was the women'swrestling show on Netflix.
But that's my only experience,so I'm just going to say,
because he has that like SiliconValley trajectory of success,
(04:12):
I'm going to say hit hit for meor hit in general Cause.
Kevin (04:14):
I mean, I know the show was a hit.
Alban (04:16):
Yeah, this one's to me.
I tried to start us off easy.
Huge hit.
Yeah, huge hit.
Kevin (04:19):
15 years was like the most popular podcast.
15 years it was like the mostpopular podcast at one point.
Headliner at the first podcastmovement, Kevin and I went to
Interviewed the president.
Yeah, I mean the only to be perfectly transparent with
you the only episode that Ilistened to from start to finish
was the Obama episode.
That was it.
I tried listening to otherepisodes and I could never get
into it.
Not a show for me, but huge hitnonetheless.
Jordan (04:41):
All right, we did it First, but huge hit nonetheless,
all right, we did it First onedown All right.
Alban (04:44):
Podcast number two Dolly Parton's America short run
series.
Nine episodes deep dive intoDolly Parton's life.
She was on the podcastthroughout.
Telling all these stories won aPeabody award.
I think that podcast flopped.
You think Dolly Parton flopped?
Kevin (05:00):
No.
I think her podcast flopped.
I think Dolly Parton has had along, historic and wonderfully
successful career in almosteverything she does except
podcasting.
What makes you say it flopped,like what I just don't think it
got?
It didn't get a lot ofnotoriety.
I didn't see a lot of peopletalking about it.
I don't know that it was on thetop of any charts for any
sustained period of time, youwon a.
(05:21):
Peabody award.
Jordan (05:22):
So in my circles it was a major hit.
Everyone was talking about itand yeah, it's a limited series
that like won an award.
I don't know, I saw iteverywhere.
Alban (05:31):
I took this as a hit.
I thought it was good.
It's a good example of a shortrun series that was fun, that
did something well in a shortrun and had cultural impact and
won awards, and one of thethings that stood out to me was
that Dolly Parton was reallyinvolved.
She's in every episode.
She's telling interestingstories, it's talking about her
(05:51):
cultural impact, but she'sactually involved in the show.
Kevin (05:55):
From what I know about Dolly Parton is that she doesn't
do any projects unless she'svery involved, like even opening
up the Dolly World theme park.
I've heard and read stories soI went there and I was impressed
with it and then I starteddoing a little research and it
turns out she's very involved inthe theme park, from food
selection to ride selection, tohow they operate, to the like
the firework shows they do atthe end of the night, like
(06:15):
everything, and I think that'spart of what makes people who
are fans of Dolly fans of Dolly.
She's very protective of.
It's going to have my name onit.
I'm going to be involved andit's going to be done my way to
my level of, you know,excellence or whatever.
Jordan (06:27):
Yeah, she's very like protective of her brand.
Kevin (06:29):
Yeah, so I'm happy to be wrong about that.
I'm glad you two both decidedit was a hit.
Alban (06:34):
All right, New one the low down.
Either you know the low down.
Washan did the lowdown in 2022.
She was going to do bi-weeklycadence, she was going to do
bi-weekly shows and she made it12 episodes.
(06:57):
So she made it past kind ofthat pod fade mark what year was
this again?
Kevin (07:01):
she was probably contractually obligated.
Alban (07:03):
Well, we will go further and there'll be people who won't
even fill out their contracts.
So don't worry.
Jordan (07:08):
What year was this?
Alban (07:08):
2022.
Jordan (07:10):
So it was like after she got herself a little bit more
together.
Kevin (07:13):
Yes, this is on her rebound.
Jordan (07:15):
Yeah.
Kevin (07:15):
All right 12 episodes.
Alban (07:17):
I put this in the flop.
It started out consistent, itdropped off, it didn't make it
past six months and wasn'trenewed.
Jordan (07:29):
Yeah, I think if it wasn't renewed it didn't make it
very long and it wasn't like anintentional, like miniseries or
limited series.
That sounds like a flop to me.
Alban (07:34):
All right Office ladies Jenna Fisher, Angela Kinsey I'm
bringing it early Hit, hit, hit.
They've done a show for sixyears.
They're re-watching the Office.
Now it's spun out They've wonawards.
And I didn't know this.
Do you know?
They're real life best friends.
Yeah, I've heard that.
Kevin (07:52):
So here's another show.
This one hits different for mebecause I don't like listening
to them talk about the Office.
I'm not interested in all thebehind the scenes stuff, but
they're funny.
They have great personalities.
Anytime I hear a clip I listento it.
So I don't subscribe to theshow, but I often find myself
like stumbling into an episodesomehow.
Yes, and it's always good.
Alban (08:09):
So I then contrast this.
I found another Office rewatchwith a former Office member,
Brian, who played Kevin.
Jordan (08:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Alban (08:18):
He did his own, called An Oral History of the Office.
It didn't pick up and then hewas quoted saying something like
everyone's got a celebritypodcast.
It's too saturated.
I don't know, man, your co-hostjust knocked it.
They're still doing it aftersix years.
All right, we can go a littlebit faster.
We've got more of these Smartstill doing it after six years.
Jordan (08:37):
All right, we can go a little bit faster.
We've got more of theseSmartless Hit.
They had an HBO series.
They're on it.
Alban (08:40):
HBO series picked up Amazon Wondery.
They've been doing it for fiveyears.
The system, the case of KevinKeith.
Do you guys know who did thisshow?
No, Kim Kardashian in 2022 dideight episodes.
Oh, yes, it's kind of like herown serial, talking about a guy
who was incarcerated and shebelieved he was probably
wrongfully imprisoned orwrongfully prosecuted.
(09:02):
Hit number one on Spotify inhis debut but no second season.
Kevin (09:06):
I did a Peloton workout with Kim Kardashian, and who's
the guy who was on that 70s showwho also played Steve Jobs in a
movie?
Jordan (09:14):
Ashton Kutcher.
Kevin (09:15):
Ashton Kutcher yeah, and the whole time they were doing
the workout they were talkingabout her going to law school.
Jordan (09:21):
Yeah.
Kevin (09:22):
And I'm assuming this podcast was a result of
something that like a case thatshe was studying in law school
or something.
Jordan (09:27):
Yeah, she's super passionate about prison reform
and she actually literally justgraduated law school when she
posted about that.
Kevin (09:33):
So yeah for her that little 30 minute run changed my
view on Kim Kardashian.
Jordan (09:38):
She's smart.
Kevin (09:38):
I just didn't think that she was.
I don't know from the justwatching the Kardashian show or
clips of that show, you don'tthink that they're super smart.
She's very smart.
Jordan (09:46):
Yeah, she is, and very passionate and empathetic.
Alban (09:49):
The reason I picked this one is it's an eight episode
series.
It only made one season, whichto me, initially I thought this
is going to be in the flopcategory.
But Kevin Keith, he has not beennothing's changed with his case
.
But she got the former governorto say, yeah, I wish I'd
pardoned him.
It looks like he was wrongfullyconvicted.
So I thought if you move theball forward on a court case,
(10:14):
you get in the win category.
Okay, All right, In bed withNick and Megan.
Nick Offerman oh, yeah, yeah.
Megan Mullaney yes.
Jordan (10:20):
National Treasures.
Alban (10:21):
National Treasures was the podcast to hit.
It spawned a whole genre of inbed podcasts.
It won an award.
The award was Best Cover Art atthe UK Podcast Awards in 2020.
Kevin (10:34):
I'll say that was probably hit.
I mean, I know about this show.
I didn't listen to it again.
I don't listen to any celebritypodcasts, but I do think it was
a pretty big show.
Alban (10:42):
How about this?
They shut down during COVIDbecause they couldn't record in
person anymore, that's crazy.
Kevin (10:47):
They both could have tested and still got in bed
together.
Alban (10:49):
I'm like, but aren't they ?
Jordan (10:51):
they're married, they're married in the recording.
Yeah, they're married.
Kevin (10:55):
Oh, then that's, ridiculous they didn't need to
do that.
Alban (10:57):
And then it canceled.
I was like, why was thiscanceled?
And they were like, oh no, wecouldn't do it in person.
Jordan (11:06):
I don't know.
I've never heard it, I've neverheard clips from it, I've never
heard anyone reference it.
So, though I absolutely adorethem as people and as performers
, I don't know.
I feel like this might be aflop.
Alban (11:15):
I'm edging on flop I, I, I put it in the flop yeah, okay
all right, a couple more and Ithink we're getting down to some
easy ones.
Armchair expert hit, major hityeah though I like this point
armchair expert dax.
Dax shepherd was not superfamous before this.
You know he did chips, he'soo.
Kevin (11:34):
Yeah.
Jordan (11:36):
What's his wife's name?
Kristen Bell.
Alban (11:38):
Yeah, he's married to Kristen Bell.
That's like at least what Iknew of him.
I don't feel like I knew muchabout it until he did the show.
Now we're getting to somepainful ones Renegades Born in
the USA.
What two celebrities did thisshow?
Kevin (11:50):
Barack Obama and Bruce Spring.
Alban (11:52):
Give me some of the most star power you can get.
Jordan (11:56):
Yeah.
Alban (11:56):
Friends discussing America music and fatherhood
that was a flop yeah.
Jordan (12:01):
I didn't know what the show was about and then when you
told me what the topic was, Iwas like I don't know.
Alban (12:07):
I think you couldn't have put me more in the bullseye for
a podcast that I didn't listento.
Wow, this is exclusive toSpotify.
I love Barack Obama.
I like Bruce Springsteen.
I would be interested to hearabout people and how they're
patriotic and they want to learnabout fatherhood and music, but
I didn't even listen.
Kevin (12:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Alban (12:25):
And then one that probably wins us a superlative
Archetypes, oh.
Kevin (12:31):
Meghan Markle.
That's a flop.
Alban (12:32):
Meghan Markle did 12 episodes in 2022, and it was a
$20 million deal.
Jordan (12:38):
I forgot who even hosted it, so I'm going to say that's
a flop.
Alban (12:42):
It was Meghan Markle.
She did not do well, though shedid do better than Prince Harry
, who produced zero episodes aspart of that $20 million deal.
Jordan (12:50):
At least she tried.
Kevin (12:51):
I think there was a big miss.
I don't know much about MeghanMarkle, but I think Meghan and
Harry were hoping that the USaudience would be more
empathetic to their situationthan they were, and it seems
like the American people ingeneral sort of sided more with
the royal family than maybe theyexpected.
(13:15):
I mean I'm not saying right orwrong or you or somebody else.
I'm just saying in general, itfelt like the American people
were more empathetic to theroyal family during that whole
debacle than Meghan and Harry.
So again, I'm not expressing anopinion, I'm just saying I
think that's my opinion aboutwhy this show might not have
been received as well as itmaybe could have been.
Alban (13:32):
So I went through all of these and then I kind of came up
with pretty similar lists and Itried to come up with a few key
points and we can all kind oftalk about which things fill
into each of these.
I came up with four things thatI think are lessons for indie
podcasters, because these arethe things that seem to in my
mind.
I can't whether one was goingto be a success or not.
(14:09):
Authenticity you know, markMaron said I don't really know
what the show's going to be.
Mm-hmm, I don't have to be sotight.
I think it's why every singlepolitical podcast has failed.
Everyone that's run by apolitician at least seems to
have not done well, and there'sa lot more beyond just the
Obamas, and I feel like it'sprobably kind of like this
political PR speak likeeverything's been overpolished.
(14:29):
You kind of polish away theauthenticity and like the
interesting stories andeverything's overset.
Kevin (14:35):
Okay, I mean I can get on board with that.
I think when you read thatquote from Mark Maron, it
reminds me very much of what JoeRogan is doing today.
That has made his podcastprobably the largest podcast in
history.
Which is he like he always saysI just want to have an
authentic conversation, andsometimes that takes, you know,
typically it takes two or threehours to have with somebody, and
so when somebody that he wantsto have on the show, wants to go
(14:58):
through talking points, orwants to put certain things off
limits, or wants to get anoutline before they do the show
or something, he's like that'snot what I do, like we're just
going to come in and we're goingto talk about whatever we're
talking about, not going to planit ahead of time.
You can't come in and say, well, this about that, yeah,
Authenticity office ladies,their best friends, yeah, just
having fun.
Alban (15:21):
They're talking about this great period of their lives
where they did this fun showwith other people they liked and
they're just enjoyingthemselves.
And even if you're not like thebiggest office fan, it's a lot
of fun.
And I didn't listen to the onethat the guy who played Kevin
did, but my guess is he's notdoing it, you know, as
authentically with like a friendand they're excited to share
these stories.
He's just kind of telling hisown stories and it's not going
(15:42):
to come off the same way of like, oh, this is a fun dynamic and
now I'm back with like twofriends.
Yeah, okay, all right.
Kevin (15:49):
Yeah, good point.
Alban (15:50):
This one is really good for all of the podcasters.
Consistency, mm, hmm, just themost common thing throughout
this was consistency.
Anyone that failed.
It was like three episodes in,they're not doing every episode,
they're skipping some now andthen they're missing recordings
and they're like oh, maybe we'llcome back for a second season.
(16:11):
Never come back for a secondseason.
Kevin (16:13):
I do remember that being a big talking point around
archetypes.
When that released it was ahuge promotional PR push.
Wasn't it a Spotify exclusivefor a while or something?
It?
Was a huge deal.
And then I think they releasedtwo or three episodes and then
the show went dark for a couplemonths and the people who did
like it were like where is it?
And anybody who was coming inlate was like okay, I got caught
(16:36):
up on the first three episodes.
Yeah, that's a bad look.
Alban (16:38):
And the celebrities.
I think part of it is they havebusy calendars, they've got
lots of opportunities and sothey get this big push.
They probably get a big bump inthe beginning because of their
name recognition, but thenthey're not sticking around, so
they go off and do somethingelse.
Then that initial excitementdrops off and then episodes four
(16:59):
through 12 are kind of like oh,this isn't working Might as
well, let this go because it'snot having the same success that
my TV show is having.
Kevin and I play pickleball andKevin, your pickleball partner,
told me he goes.
Oh, you know who you shouldtalk about is Draymond Green and
JJ Reddick.
They're basketball coach andbasketball player at the NBA and
(17:20):
they both have had podcasts.
And he was like oh, they did ashow together about what makes a
great podcast.
And one of them said it'sconsistency, 100%.
You finish a game, you want togo.
You're supposed to do anepisode.
You don't want to do theepisode, you've got to do it.
If you don't do it after awhile people will say but the
show's kind of dead or they'renot really invested in it and
(17:41):
you drop all the momentum and Iwas like these are NBA players,
nba coach, who are working superhard on their health.
They're focused, they're lockedin and they're still saying
don't do the podcast.
We can't be consistent.
I thought that was prettyimpressive.
Jordan (17:54):
I mean, that's an athlete's mentality, you know,
like you.
Just you have to show up everyday and do the thing you don't
want to do.
It's like athletes and military.
Kevin (18:03):
Yeah, you didn't bring up the new heights podcast in the
game, but that would be anothercelebrity podcast and they were
absolutely consistent.
Alban (18:09):
Yeah, that's a great one.
This is okay.
Number four we'll skip to thisone distribution.
So many of the shows that wereflops were walled gardens.
Yeah, and they're walledgardens for new shows, because
there's a lot of walled gardenshows that were made exclusive,
that actually did okay or didwell when they were exclusive,
but they were all ones that wentexclusive or had some windowing
(18:32):
, but they did that after theywere a successful podcast.
None of them did it beforehand.
And so these shows like theRenegades podcast or Archetypes
or Amy Schumer did one.
There's lots of these podcaststhat are like Spotify exclusives
and Spotify paid a lot of moneyto get somebody with star power
(18:53):
to come do a podcast and thenSpotify still had to grow it,
but only inside their world, andyou notice a few of these shows
left saying the reason was wedidn't get distribution outside
of this small ecosystem, whichis what we needed.
Trying to launch a celebritypodcast in a specific app was
always tough.
I think that made it a littlebit more difficult.
Jordan (19:15):
I would like to add a fifth point to this.
Alban (19:18):
Okay.
Jordan (19:18):
Okay, my fifth point.
What I've noticed from the onesthat we deemed to be hits is
that the celebrities actuallywere involved in the podcast.
So a lot of the ones that werenot hits.
They just, you know, delegatedall the work to everybody else
and they weren't veryintentional about it and they
were just collecting theirpaycheck and like, moving on,
(19:39):
and I mean Mark Maron, joe Rogan, dax Shepard, the smart list
guys like they put in the workto like research, the guests,
they are actually like reallyintentional and passionate about
the podcast and why they havethe podcast, and so, yeah, I'm
going to add that as my, as thefifth one.
Kevin (19:57):
Yeah, I might not be.
It might not be a hundredpercent, but I feel like, at
least from the shows youmentioned, my recollection of
those shows are those werestarted by the celebrities
themselves.
Jordan (20:06):
Yeah.
Kevin (20:07):
So, like Dak Shepard, he started his podcast, grew it a
little bit and then he did likea deal with somebody right, the
smart list guys.
They started doing theirpodcast.
They probably like I'm surethey have people to help them
Like how do we, you know, recordthis and how do we host this
and that kind of stuff?
But they did it themselves.
And then they I think they gotbought by Amazon or something,
or yeah, I don't know.
Jordan (20:28):
Wondering.
Kevin (20:28):
They did a deal with somebody wondering Mark Marin
definitely did, joe Rogandefinitely did, I think even
Conan O'Brien.
Now I think Conan was like partof Earwolf, but I don't think
Earwolf said, oh, let's go seekout Conan, let's go to him.
I think Conan had the idea todo a podcast and then maybe they
shopped the idea or something.
But I think you're right,jordan, it has something to do
(20:49):
with them being involved indriving the idea versus a
network or a company or somebodygoing out and seeking
celebrities and pitching them onthe idea.
Alban (20:54):
Yeah, the way I wrote this was you need a unique angle
.
Why are you doing this show?
There were times where the showwas kind of like it's just a
normal podcast, but it was doneby a celebrity and there's been
so many bad celebrity talk showsover the years.
And being a good celebrity doesnot mean you're going to be a
good podcaster.
I don't think.
(21:15):
If you told me like, out of allthese celebrities, some of the
best were going to be the guyfrom Chips or the old Fear
Factor host, not A-listers.
Some of the A-listers are theones who come in and can't's
show didn't take off.
He's just like being acelebrity doesn't make you a
(21:41):
great audio talent.
It's just a totally differentskill set and it shouldn't be
surprising to us thatcelebrities don't always
translate into great podcasters.
What makes you amazing on filmor a really funny comedian is
going to be different than thepodcasting skill set.
Anyway, I thought this wasinteresting.
I was sat there and wasresearching.
(22:02):
There's so, so many more.
Jordan (22:05):
Yeah.
Alban (22:05):
And I didn't want to beat up on them too much, but
there's a lot that are like fiveepisodes, 12 episodes, 20
episodes.
So maybe the big takeaway is,if you've made it 50 episodes,
you've probably outlastedhundreds of celebrity podcasters
.
Kevin (22:18):
Yeah, and that's a good list.
So run through the takeawaysfor indie podcasters again that
we can learn from celebritypodcasters.
Alban (22:24):
One authenticity You've got to be interested in this
yourself.
Why are you doing it?
Are you excited about it?
Are you enjoying it?
Consistency you want to stickwith the podcast week after week
, because if you start buildingsome momentum, you want to keep
it going.
Then we skip to fourDistribution matters.
So make sure your podcast isavailable everywhere.
(22:44):
Jordan's number five slash.
My number three is what's yourunique angle?
Why are you doing it?
Are you going to be engagedwith your podcast?
You can't outsource everything.
You've got to actually havesomething that you're excited
about and a reason why you'redoing this show, not just you
redoing some of the most popularpodcasts out there.
Jordan (23:03):
Great takeaways.
Thanks, Alvin.
All right.
So Mark Maron, one of the, inmy mind, most iconic podcasters,
kind of the one who started thewhole open, authentic
conversations format justannounced he's shutting down his
podcast.
It's 1,500 episodes, heinterviewed President Obama in
2015.
Kevin and I actually saw him atPodcast Movement and just said
(00:20):
they're burned out, they'reshutting down the show.
So it got me thinking, Jordan,because you and I have had these
conversations about thecelebrity podcast shows, or, as
you called it, the celebritypodcast graveyard, and so
sometimes shows shut down, butmostly like they really don't
last all that long.
Jordan (00:38):
Yeah.
Alban (00:38):
So I did a deep dive.
Jordan (00:40):
Oh boy.
Alban (00:41):
And that's what I want to talk about during
Kevin (00:43):
Are you going to blow our minds?
Jordan (00:44):
Buckle up.
Alban (00:46):
Because I was like what's the angle for celebrity
podcasts?
Nobody really cares about thembeyond you know the few people
who listen before they shut down.
And then I was thinking youknow the celebrity podcast, wait
, wait, wait.
Kevin (00:57):
What you're just going to blow past that like that.
We all accept that as a truestatement.
I think nobody cares aboutcelebrity podcasts, except a few
people that tune in whenthey're shutting down.
Alban (01:06):
The ones that don't catch on.
They really just are used asexamples of, like, what doesn't
work in podcasting.
Jordan (01:11):
Yeah, that's true.
Kevin (01:12):
Okay, but like, let's be fair, even celebrity podcasts
that don't catch on probablystill do way more downloads than
a typical podcast, than anaverage Joe who's just starting
a podcast and does it for acouple of years and maybe works
up to two 300 downloads perepisode, which is really great.
Like I don't know.
Jordan (01:30):
Kevin, it's not about the downloads, it's about
retention.
Alban (01:33):
Let me say it this way Our audience probably doesn't
truly care too much aboutcelebrity podcasts.
We think that's the Buzzcastaudience.
Yeah, the Buzzcast audience,the thousand true fans that we
have that listen to this show.
Kevin (01:48):
Right, okay.
Alban (01:49):
But then I was thinking, you know, for a lot of indie
podcasters, what we imagine isholding us back is actually what
celebrity podcasters have.
You know, we think I had alittle more time If I had a
budget, if I knew the rightproduction team, if maybe I got
a couple high-profile guests, ifI knew the right production
team, if maybe I got a couple ofhigh profile guests, then I'd
be good, then it would all workand it would all fall into place
.
And I was like that's actuallywhat the celebrity podcasters
(02:11):
have.
They have teams, they have timebecause they've been paid to do
it.
Most of them have famousfriends they could invite on the
podcast and yet like half ofthem flop.
And so my deep dive was whatdetermines whether or not a
celebrity podcast makes it orflops?
And then what can we learn asindie podcasters?
Jordan (02:30):
Love it All right.
Kevin (02:31):
Okay, I'm buckling up.
Alban (02:33):
And so we've got a game.
Jordan (02:35):
Yes, I love games Okay.
Alban (02:37):
The game is because of our celebrity podcast graveyard,
Jordan.
We're going to call thispodcast hit or closed casket.
Is this a hit or did it flop?
Kevin (02:47):
Closed casket is so open caskets worse.
Neither.
Neither it's good, but I don'tknow.
It just hit me sideways.
Open casket.
Can we call it like celebrity,like hit or flop?
Alban (02:58):
We can we can call it something boring.
It's the podcast celebritypodcast graveyard.
The celebrities aren't dead,their shows are dead.
Kevin (03:05):
All right, okay, all right, I'll get in the right
state of minds.
I just don't like, I don't know.
The morbid imagery was nothitting me right.
Jordan (03:12):
But I can get, just don't think about it.
Put it aside, all right, justdon't think about it.
Alban (03:16):
All right, here we go.
First, one podcast.
Very much, that's what Kevinhas to say.
Now I'm going to tell you abouta celebrity podcast.
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about it and you guys
determine whether or not it wasa hit or it was a flop.
Number one BTF with Marc Maron,the one we started with, been
going for 15 years, kind ofkicked off.
This like authenticconversations poured into Marc
(03:38):
Maron's garage.
They had the secret service onhis roof.
When he had President Obama, hewas inducted into the Podcaster
Hall of Fame.
Podcast hit or I didn't like itvery much.
Jordan (03:48):
I'm going to speak up first.
I think that this is a hit justbecause it has that Apple
Silicon Valley beginnings ofstarting in a garage and then
exploding into popularity.
I didn't actually listen to it,but I really liked Marc Maron
in Glow, which was the women'swrestling show on Netflix.
But that's my only experience,so I'm just going to say,
because he has that like SiliconValley trajectory of success,
(04:12):
I'm going to say hit hit for meor hit in general Cause.
Kevin (04:14):
I mean, I know the show was a hit.
Alban (04:16):
Yeah, this one's to me.
I tried to start us off easy.
Huge hit.
Yeah, huge hit.
Kevin (04:19):
15 years was like the most popular podcast.
15 years it was like the mostpopular podcast at one point.
Headliner at the first podcastmovement, Kevin and I went to
Interviewed the president.
Yeah, I mean the only to be perfectly transparent with
you the only episode that Ilistened to from start to finish
was the Obama episode.
That was it.
I tried listening to otherepisodes and I could never get
into it.
Not a show for me, but huge hitnonetheless.
Jordan (04:41):
All right, we did it First, but huge hit nonetheless,
all right, we did it First onedown All right.
Alban (04:44):
Podcast number two Dolly Parton's America short run
series.
Nine episodes deep dive intoDolly Parton's life.
She was on the podcastthroughout.
Telling all these stories won aPeabody award.
I think that podcast flopped.
You think Dolly Parton flopped?
Kevin (05:00):
No.
I think her podcast flopped.
I think Dolly Parton has had along, historic and wonderfully
successful career in almosteverything she does except
podcasting.
What makes you say it flopped,like what I just don't think it
got?
It didn't get a lot ofnotoriety.
I didn't see a lot of peopletalking about it.
I don't know that it was on thetop of any charts for any
sustained period of time, youwon a.
(05:21):
Peabody award.
Jordan (05:22):
So in my circles it was a major hit.
Everyone was talking about itand yeah, it's a limited series
that like won an award.
I don't know, I saw iteverywhere.
Alban (05:31):
I took this as a hit.
I thought it was good.
It's a good example of a shortrun series that was fun, that
did something well in a shortrun and had cultural impact and
won awards, and one of thethings that stood out to me was
that Dolly Parton was reallyinvolved.
She's in every episode.
She's telling interestingstories, it's talking about her
(05:51):
cultural impact, but she'sactually involved in the show.
Kevin (05:55):
From what I know about Dolly Parton is that she doesn't
do any projects unless she'svery involved, like even opening
up the Dolly World theme park.
I've heard and read stories soI went there and I was impressed
with it and then I starteddoing a little research and it
turns out she's very involved inthe theme park, from food
selection to ride selection, tohow they operate, to the like
the firework shows they do atthe end of the night, like
(06:15):
everything, and I think that'spart of what makes people who
are fans of Dolly fans of Dolly.
She's very protective of.
It's going to have my name onit.
I'm going to be involved andit's going to be done my way to
my level of, you know,excellence or whatever.
Jordan (06:27):
Yeah, she's very like protective of her brand.
Kevin (06:29):
Yeah, so I'm happy to be wrong about that.
I'm glad you two both decidedit was a hit.
Alban (06:34):
All right, New one the low down.
Either you know the low down.
Washan did the lowdown in 2022.
She was going to do bi-weeklycadence, she was going to do
bi-weekly shows and she made it12 episodes.
(06:57):
So she made it past kind ofthat pod fade mark what year was
this again?
Kevin (07:01):
she was probably contractually obligated.
Alban (07:03):
Well, we will go further and there'll be people who won't
even fill out their contracts.
So don't worry.
Jordan (07:08):
What year was this?
Alban (07:08):
2022.
Jordan (07:10):
So it was like after she got herself a little bit more
together.
Kevin (07:13):
Yes, this is on her rebound.
Jordan (07:15):
Yeah.
Kevin (07:15):
All right 12 episodes.
Alban (07:17):
I put this in the flop.
It started out consistent, itdropped off, it didn't make it
past six months and wasn'trenewed.
Jordan (07:29):
Yeah, I think if it wasn't renewed it didn't make it
very long and it wasn't like anintentional, like miniseries or
limited series.
That sounds like a flop to me.
Alban (07:34):
All right Office ladies Jenna Fisher, Angela Kinsey I'm
bringing it early Hit, hit, hit.
They've done a show for sixyears.
They're re-watching the Office.
Now it's spun out They've wonawards.
And I didn't know this.
Do you know?
They're real life best friends.
Yeah, I've heard that.
Kevin (07:52):
So here's another show.
This one hits different for mebecause I don't like listening
to them talk about the Office.
I'm not interested in all thebehind the scenes stuff, but
they're funny.
They have great personalities.
Anytime I hear a clip I listento it.
So I don't subscribe to theshow, but I often find myself
like stumbling into an episodesomehow.
Yes, and it's always good.
Alban (08:09):
So I then contrast this.
I found another Office rewatchwith a former Office member,
Brian, who played Kevin.
Jordan (08:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Alban (08:18):
He did his own, called An Oral History of the Office.
It didn't pick up and then hewas quoted saying something like
everyone's got a celebritypodcast.
It's too saturated.
I don't know, man, your co-hostjust knocked it.
They're still doing it aftersix years.
All right, we can go a littlebit faster.
We've got more of these Smartstill doing it after six years.
Jordan (08:37):
All right, we can go a little bit faster.
We've got more of theseSmartless Hit.
They had an HBO series.
They're on it.
Alban (08:40):
HBO series picked up Amazon Wondery.
They've been doing it for fiveyears.
The system, the case of KevinKeith.
Do you guys know who did thisshow?
No, Kim Kardashian in 2022 dideight episodes.
Oh, yes, it's kind of like herown serial, talking about a guy
who was incarcerated and shebelieved he was probably
wrongfully imprisoned orwrongfully prosecuted.
(09:02):
Hit number one on Spotify inhis debut but no second season.
Kevin (09:06):
I did a Peloton workout with Kim Kardashian, and who's
the guy who was on that 70s showwho also played Steve Jobs in a
movie?
Jordan (09:14):
Ashton Kutcher.
Kevin (09:15):
Ashton Kutcher yeah, and the whole time they were doing
the workout they were talkingabout her going to law school.
Jordan (09:21):
Yeah.
Kevin (09:22):
And I'm assuming this podcast was a result of
something that like a case thatshe was studying in law school
or something.
Jordan (09:27):
Yeah, she's super passionate about prison reform
and she actually literally justgraduated law school when she
posted about that.
Kevin (09:33):
So yeah for her that little 30 minute run changed my
view on Kim Kardashian.
Jordan (09:38):
She's smart.
Kevin (09:38):
I just didn't think that she was.
I don't know from the justwatching the Kardashian show or
clips of that show, you don'tthink that they're super smart.
She's very smart.
Jordan (09:46):
Yeah, she is, and very passionate and empathetic.
Alban (09:49):
The reason I picked this one is it's an eight episode
series.
It only made one season, whichto me, initially I thought this
is going to be in the flopcategory.
But Kevin Keith, he has not beennothing's changed with his case
.
But she got the former governorto say, yeah, I wish I'd
pardoned him.
It looks like he was wrongfullyconvicted.
So I thought if you move theball forward on a court case,
(10:14):
you get in the win category.
Okay, All right, In bed withNick and Megan.
Nick Offerman oh, yeah, yeah.
Megan Mullaney yes.
Jordan (10:20):
National Treasures.
Alban (10:21):
National Treasures was the podcast to hit.
It spawned a whole genre of inbed podcasts.
It won an award.
The award was Best Cover Art atthe UK Podcast Awards in 2020.
Kevin (10:34):
I'll say that was probably hit.
I mean, I know about this show.
I didn't listen to it again.
I don't listen to any celebritypodcasts, but I do think it was
a pretty big show.
Alban (10:42):
How about this?
They shut down during COVIDbecause they couldn't record in
person anymore, that's crazy.
Kevin (10:47):
They both could have tested and still got in bed
together.
Alban (10:49):
I'm like, but aren't they ?
Jordan (10:51):
they're married, they're married in the recording.
Yeah, they're married.
Kevin (10:55):
Oh, then that's, ridiculous they didn't need to
do that.
Alban (10:57):
And then it canceled.
I was like, why was thiscanceled?
And they were like, oh no, wecouldn't do it in person.
Jordan (11:06):
I don't know.
I've never heard it, I've neverheard clips from it, I've never
heard anyone reference it.
So, though I absolutely adorethem as people and as performers
, I don't know.
I feel like this might be aflop.
Alban (11:15):
I'm edging on flop I, I, I put it in the flop yeah, okay
all right, a couple more and Ithink we're getting down to some
easy ones.
Armchair expert hit, major hityeah though I like this point
armchair expert dax.
Dax shepherd was not superfamous before this.
You know he did chips, he'soo.
Kevin (11:34):
Yeah.
Jordan (11:36):
What's his wife's name?
Kristen Bell.
Alban (11:38):
Yeah, he's married to Kristen Bell.
That's like at least what Iknew of him.
I don't feel like I knew muchabout it until he did the show.
Now we're getting to somepainful ones Renegades Born in
the USA.
What two celebrities did thisshow?
Kevin (11:50):
Barack Obama and Bruce Spring.
Alban (11:52):
Give me some of the most star power you can get.
Jordan (11:56):
Yeah.
Alban (11:56):
Friends discussing America music and fatherhood
that was a flop yeah.
Jordan (12:01):
I didn't know what the show was about and then when you
told me what the topic was, Iwas like I don't know.
Alban (12:07):
I think you couldn't have put me more in the bullseye for
a podcast that I didn't listento.
Wow, this is exclusive toSpotify.
I love Barack Obama.
I like Bruce Springsteen.
I would be interested to hearabout people and how they're
patriotic and they want to learnabout fatherhood and music, but
I didn't even listen.
Kevin (12:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Alban (12:25):
And then one that probably wins us a superlative
Archetypes, oh.
Kevin (12:31):
Meghan Markle.
That's a flop.
Alban (12:32):
Meghan Markle did 12 episodes in 2022, and it was a
$20 million deal.
Jordan (12:38):
I forgot who even hosted it, so I'm going to say that's
a flop.
Alban (12:42):
It was Meghan Markle.
She did not do well, though shedid do better than Prince Harry
, who produced zero episodes aspart of that $20 million deal.
Jordan (12:50):
At least she tried.
Kevin (12:51):
I think there was a big miss.
I don't know much about MeghanMarkle, but I think Meghan and
Harry were hoping that the USaudience would be more
empathetic to their situationthan they were, and it seems
like the American people ingeneral sort of sided more with
the royal family than maybe theyexpected.
(13:15):
I mean I'm not saying right orwrong or you or somebody else.
I'm just saying in general, itfelt like the American people
were more empathetic to theroyal family during that whole
debacle than Meghan and Harry.
So again, I'm not expressing anopinion, I'm just saying I
think that's my opinion aboutwhy this show might not have
been received as well as itmaybe could have been.
Alban (13:32):
So I went through all of these and then I kind of came up
with pretty similar lists and Itried to come up with a few key
points and we can all kind oftalk about which things fill
into each of these.
I came up with four things thatI think are lessons for indie
podcasters, because these arethe things that seem to in my
mind.
I can't whether one was goingto be a success or not.
(14:09):
Authenticity you know, markMaron said I don't really know
what the show's going to be.
Mm-hmm, I don't have to be sotight.
I think it's why every singlepolitical podcast has failed.
Everyone that's run by apolitician at least seems to
have not done well, and there'sa lot more beyond just the
Obamas, and I feel like it'sprobably kind of like this
political PR speak likeeverything's been overpolished.
(14:29):
You kind of polish away theauthenticity and like the
interesting stories andeverything's overset.
Kevin (14:35):
Okay, I mean I can get on board with that.
I think when you read thatquote from Mark Maron, it
reminds me very much of what JoeRogan is doing today.
That has made his podcastprobably the largest podcast in
history.
Which is he like he always saysI just want to have an
authentic conversation, andsometimes that takes, you know,
typically it takes two or threehours to have with somebody, and
so when somebody that he wantsto have on the show, wants to go
(14:58):
through talking points, orwants to put certain things off
limits, or wants to get anoutline before they do the show
or something, he's like that'snot what I do, like we're just
going to come in and we're goingto talk about whatever we're
talking about, not going to planit ahead of time.
You can't come in and say, well, this about that, yeah,
Authenticity office ladies,their best friends, yeah, just
having fun.
Alban (15:21):
They're talking about this great period of their lives
where they did this fun showwith other people they liked and
they're just enjoyingthemselves.
And even if you're not like thebiggest office fan, it's a lot
of fun.
And I didn't listen to the onethat the guy who played Kevin
did, but my guess is he's notdoing it, you know, as
authentically with like a friendand they're excited to share
these stories.
He's just kind of telling hisown stories and it's not going
(15:42):
to come off the same way of like, oh, this is a fun dynamic and
now I'm back with like twofriends.
Yeah, okay, all right.
Kevin (15:49):
Yeah, good point.
Alban (15:50):
This one is really good for all of the podcasters.
Consistency, mm, hmm, just themost common thing throughout
this was consistency.
Anyone that failed.
It was like three episodes in,they're not doing every episode,
they're skipping some now andthen they're missing recordings
and they're like oh, maybe we'llcome back for a second season.
(16:11):
Never come back for a secondseason.
Kevin (16:13):
I do remember that being a big talking point around
archetypes.
When that released it was ahuge promotional PR push.
Wasn't it a Spotify exclusivefor a while or something?
It?
Was a huge deal.
And then I think they releasedtwo or three episodes and then
the show went dark for a couplemonths and the people who did
like it were like where is it?
And anybody who was coming inlate was like okay, I got caught
(16:36):
up on the first three episodes.
Yeah, that's a bad look.
Alban (16:38):
And the celebrities.
I think part of it is they havebusy calendars, they've got
lots of opportunities and sothey get this big push.
They probably get a big bump inthe beginning because of their
name recognition, but thenthey're not sticking around, so
they go off and do somethingelse.
Then that initial excitementdrops off and then episodes four
(16:59):
through 12 are kind of like oh,this isn't working Might as
well, let this go because it'snot having the same success that
my TV show is having.
Kevin and I play pickleball andKevin, your pickleball partner,
told me he goes.
Oh, you know who you shouldtalk about is Draymond Green and
JJ Reddick.
They're basketball coach andbasketball player at the NBA and
(17:20):
they both have had podcasts.
And he was like oh, they did ashow together about what makes a
great podcast.
And one of them said it'sconsistency, 100%.
You finish a game, you want togo.
You're supposed to do anepisode.
You don't want to do theepisode, you've got to do it.
If you don't do it after awhile people will say but the
show's kind of dead or they'renot really invested in it and
(17:41):
you drop all the momentum and Iwas like these are NBA players,
nba coach, who are working superhard on their health.
They're focused, they're lockedin and they're still saying
don't do the podcast.
We can't be consistent.
I thought that was prettyimpressive.
Jordan (17:54):
I mean, that's an athlete's mentality, you know,
like you.
Just you have to show up everyday and do the thing you don't
want to do.
It's like athletes and military.
Kevin (18:03):
Yeah, you didn't bring up the new heights podcast in the
game, but that would be anothercelebrity podcast and they were
absolutely consistent.
Alban (18:09):
Yeah, that's a great one.
This is okay.
Number four we'll skip to thisone distribution.
So many of the shows that wereflops were walled gardens.
Yeah, and they're walledgardens for new shows, because
there's a lot of walled gardenshows that were made exclusive,
that actually did okay or didwell when they were exclusive,
but they were all ones that wentexclusive or had some windowing
(18:32):
, but they did that after theywere a successful podcast.
None of them did it beforehand.
And so these shows like theRenegades podcast or Archetypes
or Amy Schumer did one.
There's lots of these podcaststhat are like Spotify exclusives
and Spotify paid a lot of moneyto get somebody with star power
(18:53):
to come do a podcast and thenSpotify still had to grow it,
but only inside their world, andyou notice a few of these shows
left saying the reason was wedidn't get distribution outside
of this small ecosystem, whichis what we needed.
Trying to launch a celebritypodcast in a specific app was
always tough.
I think that made it a littlebit more difficult.
Jordan (19:15):
I would like to add a fifth point to this.
Alban (19:18):
Okay.
Jordan (19:18):
Okay, my fifth point.
What I've noticed from the onesthat we deemed to be hits is
that the celebrities actuallywere involved in the podcast.
So a lot of the ones that werenot hits.
They just, you know, delegatedall the work to everybody else
and they weren't veryintentional about it and they
were just collecting theirpaycheck and like, moving on,
(19:39):
and I mean Mark Maron, joe Rogan, dax Shepard, the smart list
guys like they put in the workto like research, the guests,
they are actually like reallyintentional and passionate about
the podcast and why they havethe podcast, and so, yeah, I'm
going to add that as my, as thefifth one.
Kevin (19:57):
Yeah, I might not be.
It might not be a hundredpercent, but I feel like, at
least from the shows youmentioned, my recollection of
those shows are those werestarted by the celebrities
themselves.
Jordan (20:06):
Yeah.
Kevin (20:07):
So, like Dak Shepard, he started his podcast, grew it a
little bit and then he did likea deal with somebody right, the
smart list guys.
They started doing theirpodcast.
They probably like I'm surethey have people to help them
Like how do we, you know, recordthis and how do we host this
and that kind of stuff?
But they did it themselves.
And then they I think they gotbought by Amazon or something,
or yeah, I don't know.
Jordan (20:28):
Wondering.
Kevin (20:28):
They did a deal with somebody wondering Mark Marin
definitely did, joe Rogandefinitely did, I think even
Conan O'Brien.
Now I think Conan was like partof Earwolf, but I don't think
Earwolf said, oh, let's go seekout Conan, let's go to him.
I think Conan had the idea todo a podcast and then maybe they
shopped the idea or something.
But I think you're right,jordan, it has something to do
(20:49):
with them being involved indriving the idea versus a
network or a company or somebodygoing out and seeking
celebrities and pitching them onthe idea.
Alban (20:54):
Yeah, the way I wrote this was you need a unique angle
.
Why are you doing this show?
There were times where the showwas kind of like it's just a
normal podcast, but it was doneby a celebrity and there's been
so many bad celebrity talk showsover the years.
And being a good celebrity doesnot mean you're going to be a
good podcaster.
I don't think.
(21:15):
If you told me like, out of allthese celebrities, some of the
best were going to be the guyfrom Chips or the old Fear
Factor host, not A-listers.
Some of the A-listers are theones who come in and can't's
show didn't take off.
He's just like being acelebrity doesn't make you a
(21:41):
great audio talent.
It's just a totally differentskill set and it shouldn't be
surprising to us thatcelebrities don't always
translate into great podcasters.
What makes you amazing on filmor a really funny comedian is
going to be different than thepodcasting skill set.
Anyway, I thought this wasinteresting.
I was sat there and wasresearching.
(22:02):
There's so, so many more.
Jordan (22:05):
Yeah.
Alban (22:05):
And I didn't want to beat up on them too much, but
there's a lot that are like fiveepisodes, 12 episodes, 20
episodes.
So maybe the big takeaway is,if you've made it 50 episodes,
you've probably outlastedhundreds of celebrity podcasters
.
Kevin (22:18):
Yeah, and that's a good list.
So run through the takeawaysfor indie podcasters again that
we can learn from celebritypodcasters.
Alban (22:24):
One authenticity You've got to be interested in this
yourself.
Why are you doing it?
Are you excited about it?
Are you enjoying it?
Consistency you want to stickwith the podcast week after week
, because if you start buildingsome momentum, you want to keep
it going.
Then we skip to fourDistribution matters.
So make sure your podcast isavailable everywhere.
(22:44):
Jordan's number five slash.
My number three is what's yourunique angle?
Why are you doing it?
Are you going to be engagedwith your podcast?
You can't outsource everything.
You've got to actually havesomething that you're excited
about and a reason why you'redoing this show, not just you
redoing some of the most popularpodcasts out there.
Jordan (23:03):
Great takeaways.
Thanks, Alvin.
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