Podcasting Horror Stories

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan (00:00):
No soapboxing on social media.

Kevin (00:03):
What? I'm so positive and you guys, I get a bad rap.

Alban (00:06):
I'm positive that if we talk about both YouTube and
Tiktok, one, Kevin or I, will belike this frickin social media
is ruining! Like, we'll get itone of us. Two opportunities.

Kevin (00:18):
We're just lucky that we stick to just podcasts because I
think it's ruining the entireworld.

Jordan (00:22):
And there it is.
So Alban, you have a follow up,another follow up. We're doing a
lot of follow ups on these vinylpodcasts, but you have sort of a
different take on it this time.

Alban (00:39):
You know, you're getting old when like your first format
for music is now like thevintage version. So Kevin had
his moment in the last fewepisodes where like, vinyl
records or podcasts around vinyland it's old and everyone's
like, ah, that's cool. But nowit's starting to hit a little
bit home. Cassettes are nowbeing used to distribute

(00:59):
podcasts. So Canadian politicsare boring is a podcast that
covers Canadian politics, justannounced that they are going to
be recording a special editionof their podcast and putting it
on 50 cassettes to mail it out.
So reminiscent of Kevin's JerkyBoys tapes.

Kevin (01:19):
Do you think they took this idea from our show?

Alban (01:20):
I think that's highly likely.

Jordan (01:22):
I was wondering that too.

Kevin (01:23):
I don't see where else it could have come from.

Alban (01:25):
No one's ever thought about cassettes before you
started talking about thatKevin. So this is gotta be where
it's from.

Kevin (01:30):
T hat's great. I'm glad that we can contribute.

Jordan (01:32):
So I think maybe Buzzcast should be on an eight
track. They kind of like skippeda step there. We got to, we got
to fill in that void. So we'regonna do an eight track episode.

Alban (01:41):
How long were eight tracks at the peak?

Jordan (01:44):
That--it's a scarcity thing. It makes it more rare and
valuable.

Alban (01:48):
We're not gonna make it like a Betamax or something.

Kevin (01:52):
LaserDisc, or what's the what's the first thing well,
let's start writing down ourtranscripts or episodes and like
attaching them in pigeons andsending them across the world.

Jordan (02:01):
Oh, yeah. Now we're thinking.

Kevin (02:02):
pigeon post.

Jordan (02:03):
This is more like economical. There's no plastics
in use. It's a little more likeearth friendly to use the
pigeons.

Kevin (02:10):
Yeah, I like the picture of the Canadian politics is
boring podcast. Lately, theyhave like this really old
looking cassette tape, and thenlike recycled packaging around
it or something. It's like acool take on a cassette.

Jordan (02:22):
You know, what's interesting is that they have
slasher font on the cover, andthen like the tape itself, the
cassette itself is like pink,like Barbie pink.

Kevin (02:31):
They're gonna have to send out like cassette recorders
like no one's gonna be able playthese.

Alban (02:36):
I've literally got a mp3 boombox with cassette recorder
player. Like, I've got it righthere. Do you think this stuff's
out of style?

Kevin (02:45):
yeah, where you pick those up from? Like Urban
Outfitters?

Alban (02:49):
I guarantee this is sold at Urban Outfitters. 100
percent.

Kevin (02:53):
They sell the most random stuff.

Alban (02:55):
This is a prop for a future Buzzsprout video that
we're filming tomorrow,actually. So yeah, I'm sure it's
an Urban Outfitters specialtyitem.

Jordan (03:04):
I'm interested to see how many more different like
versions of podcasting we cancome up with, like how many
different mediums.

Kevin (03:10):
Jordan I know you're doing. Let's like, let's try to
market Buzzcast and grow theshow for this workcycles One of
your small projects. I thinkcassettes have to play into it.

Jordan (03:19):
I think so too. We've been like vibing with like the
90s thing lately. It's on ourminds, like yeah, we're kind of
in the flow right now. So Ithink that's a very viable
thing, especially since wealready have the tools to create
this.

Kevin (03:32):
Yeah, I'm gonna go on Alibaba and figure out if we can
order like the set Walkmans howmuch they are. If they're under
like $5 If I can get if I canbuy like 1000 for $5

Jordan (03:41):
Yeah, have like Buzzsprout edition Walkmans!

Kevin (03:45):
Conference swag. Come get your cassette recorder.

Jordan (03:48):
Oh, that'd be so good.
Alban, yesterday, I saw that youtweeted about Pocket Casts,
their mobile app was now likeopen source or something like
that. And I need you to talk methrough this because I am not
technical enough to even likeunderstand the first part of

(04:10):
what that means. Once youexplain that, to me, like a five
year old.

Alban (04:15):
Pocket Casts is I think, for a long time Kevin's
preferred podcast player, rightKev?

Kevin (04:20):
My preferred player? No, but it is a really good player.
Yeah, so Pocket Casts is a greatpodcasting app. It's available
for iOS and Android. It wasbuilt by a group of really good
developers, they had a team. Soit was it was not like a solo
project. Not that solo projectscan't be great. They just kind
of take, you know more time tobecome great. So there are some
really good ones that are juststarting out. And they're just

(04:42):
going to take some time to getall the features and polish that
something like a team can puttogether a little bit faster.
POC has been around since 2010.
But they had a great team ofdevelopers. It was really
polished, really robust podcastlistening app. And it's gotten a
lot of traction, especially onAndroid, but a lot of iOS users
use it as well and It kind ofcompetes with overcast is kind
of being like the most popularindependent third party podcast

(05:04):
listening app, but it's not likenative to the platform like
Apple podcasts. If you look atBuzzsprout global stats, I think
it usually comes in somewherebetween one and 2%, which sounds
low for overall listening. Butthat's that's actually a pretty
good amount of listens. And soPocket Casts went up for sale a
couple years ago, I think, whenwhen they go for sale, Alban,

(05:24):
just about like two years ago, Ithink, yeah. And it shopped
around a little bit. And itlanded with automatics automatic
is the company that makesWordPress and they have acquired
a bunch of other little appsalong with WordPress over the
years. And now they've justadded to their suite of
applications with Pocket Casts.
One thing that WordPress isknown for is their commitment to

(05:45):
open source technology. SoWordPress itself, which is their
main product, which they built awhole company around is open
source. And a lot of thesesmaller products that they pick
up, they go ahead and make opensource as well haven't done this
with everything like they boughtTumblr and a couple other
things. They haven't made all ofthose open source. But the
question has been going aroundin the podcasting circles, like

(06:05):
do you think Pocket Casts willgo open source? And they just
announced this week that theyare doing it, they made Pocket
Casts open source?

Jordan (06:12):
So what does that actually mean? Like how does
that benefit other people?

Alban (06:17):
Developers? Yeah, open source software is kind of like
this broad category on thespectrum from something that's
truly a public good, anybody canuse it for any purpose, all the
way to, hey, this is ourproprietary code that we would
never share. So Buzzsprout islike totally our own, we have a
copyright, it's a trade secret,we're gonna keep it hidden as

(06:37):
much as we can. So no one couldcopy it. And then there's some
stuff that's all the way on theother end of the spectrum,
anybody can use it. With opensource, you're trying to kind of
thread a needle between twodifferent those two spectrums,
because what you want to do issomething called instead of
copyright, I think it's calledCopy left. Really? Yeah. I think

(07:02):
it's a play on words, but copyleft, the idea is, hey, we're
going to share all of this stuffthat we put in a ton of work, we
built this library, we'vewritten this code, we've done
something. But if you're goingto use it for your own project,
we want to encourage or requireanything you do, and you add on
to give it back to everybody.
Does that make sense? So like,you take something that we

(07:25):
created a and now you makesomething else cool? Well, you
can't just now get all thebenefits, you also have to kind
of give back to the community.
And so different licensingprojects or open source
projects, live on a spectrumbetween how much do we just
totally give it away and sayyou're allowed to do whatever
you want with it, even if yousell it later on, that's fine,

(07:47):
all the way to, hey, if you doanything with this library or
this code, you've got to give usall of what you build back to
the community. So kind of duginto what our Pocket Cast is
going to be they announced thisis going to be the Mozilla
Public License, which basicallymeans they're going to release
everything that bill how tobuild Pocket Casts, you'll be

(08:08):
able to just copy, paste andmake your own. If you make any
changes to those files, therequirements will be Hey, you
let the community know whatthose changes are so that people
can keep building on what youbuilt. But you are allowed to
have other parts of the app thatare proprietary to yourself. So
if it's in a different file, youdon't have to share it back. So

(08:29):
it's kind of this middle groundthat they've landed on. And why
does this cool? It's becausethis is how we got the Mozilla
browser. This is how we gotFirefox. Oh, really? Yeah. This
is how we built so many of ourweb browsers that we use today.
All the modern web browsers comeout of a bunch of developers
saying, Hey, we're building thisengine, and we're going to let

(08:50):
everybody use it and theirbrowsers, and hopefully, we're
gonna get everybody on board. Sowe have some standardization and
the ability to create new modernbrowsers more easily.

Jordan (09:01):
So it's like innovation through community support.

Kevin (09:04):
Yeah, exactly. So let me ask the question of you Alban,
like I know that the WordPresslicense works, where you can
take a full copy of WordPress,you can fork it, which is just
like creating your own copy, dowhatever you want to it, their
license, my understanding isthat you can do anything
commercial with it that youwant, as long as that commercial
project remains open source aswell. So people can view your

(09:25):
source code, your changes, youradditions, or subtractions,
whatever, but you can totallytake it and build your own
business off of it, if you want.
Is that Is that yourunderstanding of this Mozilla
license as well?

Alban (09:34):
Don't use anything I'm saying. It's like the basis for
your future legal decisions, ifanyone's listening to this.
WordPress is is a differentlicensing structure and it's
called the G in EU publiclicense. And I think that one's
slightly more restrictive,actually. Then what Pocket Casts
is going to be under wherePocket Casts I think you're able

(09:56):
to keep more of the work you dothe proprietary work. You're
able to keep that hidden. And soit's a little bit stronger of an
incentive for you to build offthe Pocket Casts, you know, the
foundation that they built, is alittle bit more exciting, I
think to use that than it wouldbe to build, you know, different
flavors of WordPress or buildsomething on top of the

(10:17):
WordPress engine. All have tosay like, this is a very
complicated area of licensinglaw. And I'm not 100% confident
about it. But what this does isit really opens the door to
developers who want to dosomething like you know,
fountain, in the last few yearssaid, Hey, I'm going to build a
cool podcast app. And I'm goingto figure out how to accept and

(10:37):
give donations through crypto.
You know, if somebody has a coolidea, like snipped, and they
want to say, I'm gonna make itreally easy for you to snip out
little segments of a podcastepisode and save it in a note,
they can do that anybody who hasthese cool ideas now has a
really, really good foundationfrom which to build for their
podcast app going forward. So Ithink what we will probably see

(10:59):
is more podcast apps, when theyget launched, they're gonna be
much more full featured, they'regonna be much more developed
much more mature. And this isgoing to be awesome, because it
lines up directly with all thepodcasting to Dotto group, the
podcast index, all theseefforts, will now we've got a
really good app that supports alot of those things. That's

(11:20):
going to become the basis for alot of future apps. And so I
think it helps build a lot ofconsensus around all the work
that they've been doing. So I'mvery, very excited to see that
they made this change, it's areally big deal.

Kevin (11:36):
Well, it sounds like the main like core, the Pocket Cast
team at automatic is they'rekeeping control of that. So in
the news article that theyreleased, they said that they
want encourage everyone toreport bugs suggested new
features and submit pullrequests for current issues. But
it'll be the Pocket Cast teamthat will be adding new
features, fixing bugs andexpanding their plus offering.
So I don't think they're reallyencouraging people to come in

(11:58):
and make a lot of code changesand submit a pull request that
would then be pulled into themain app, I think what they're
doing is they're saying, Hey, ifyou want to use this as a
jumping off point to build yourown app, great. Or if you want
to help make the existing appbetter, you can report bugs and
suggest features. But if youreally want to make a lot of
changes, like you want toimplement s ome Podcasting Q&A
stuff, what you should probablydo is make your own copy and go

(12:19):
from there, which is great. Whata gift to the podcasting
community. It's fantastic.

Jordan (12:26):
YouTube has had quite a few updates recently. So
Advertising Week was this week,and they announced that they
will be rolling out audio ads.
They've been testing the audioads, since like 2020, I wasn't
really sure how that was goingto work in like a video format,
right? Like, would it just belike blank and then play the
audio? And obviously, that's notthe case. So what they do is the
advertisers when they buy anaudio only ad, they will have

(12:49):
like a static image over thevideo. And the advertisers are
going to be able to target theads based on like just basic
podcast categories for theYouTube podcast. But the thing
that I think a lot of podcastersmight be interested to know, I
know that there's been like areally big push about YouTube
and podcasters are looking at itas a really big opportunity for

(13:12):
them to just like expand theirpodcast, maybe like another
monetization stream. ButYouTube's CPM for the audio ads
is going to be the same as theirvideo CPM. And so for podcasts
for each advertisement slot, theaverage CPM ranges between $2
and $8 per 1000 downloads. Andthe average audio podcast ad is

(13:37):
going to be you know, closer tolike 14 to $25. And YouTube
changes the CPM based ondifferent things about your
channel. So if you have likeexplicit language, you're going
to have a different CPM thansomeone who has like a kid based
channel or if you don't have asmany subscribers as like another

(13:59):
channel, your CPM drops. Andthen on top of that YouTube
takes a 45% cut of what littleCPM you get. So I don't think
that it's going to be a reallygreat stream of revenue for
podcasters.

Alban (14:14):
So the first thing that I think is super interesting is
like audio only ads on YouTube,when I first heard that I'm
like, This doesn't make anysense to me kinda like well,
you're saying, so it's justgonna be a blank screen with
audio, which is a person whobuys advertisements. I don't see
that as something I'd be excitedabout. Imagine what's the click
through rate going to be what'sthe brand look like if that's

(14:35):
what you do. But then I saw thisrumor of tests that are being
done in Canada. And so withYouTube premium, you can just
turn off the screen and yourYouTube video will continue to
play the audio out of yourphone. And that's really big for
someone who's listening to apodcast on YouTube that maybe
has the video and they want tojust listen. Well in Canada

(14:57):
they're actually testing I thinksince Last October, the ability
to play content in thebackground when not looking at
the screen, pretty much thatpremium feature is now available
for everybody. That's when audioads start getting really
interesting. Because now there'sa use case for somebody who's
just driving around town. Andthey want to listen to something

(15:19):
and they pull up a podcast onYouTube, they don't want to look
at it. And now it's playing inthe background. And then YouTube
goes, Hey, we've got some audioads, let's start dropping those
in. Because if you're anadvertiser, it you made a pretty
much like a commercial, like,real production value, there's
audio, there's visual effects,there's all this stuff. And then

(15:40):
you found out YouTube wasplaying that with the screen
off, you'd be like, What theheck, What a rip off, like,
we're not gonna get the tractionwe were hoping for. But by
sourcing Audio Ads, they'regoing to, I think kind of line
themselves up to say, we've nowgot the audio ads, we have the
audio experience together, wethink we can bring something
pretty cool. This really feelsto me like a direct shot at

(16:04):
Spotify. And their businessmodel of we're going to be the
audio experience, where YouTubeis the visual this YouTube
saying, Hey, I think we're goingto try to do some audio first
experiences even more and makethose even more prevalent
outside of just for premiumusers.

Jordan (16:20):
Yeah, we kind of like speculated on that a few times,
just with, like, the differentannouncements that YouTube's had
about, like the podcasts andstuff, and I'm just like, Oh,
they're gonna go audio, they'regonna go audio, they're gonna go
audio, and now it's starting tofeel like we actually are moving
into that direction. So I'mpretty excited about that.

Kevin (16:37):
Yeah, I 100% agree, I think that's the most
interesting takeaway from thisarticle is that we're seeing
more and more evidence thatYouTube is going to be I think
they're gonna have to drop thewhatever they call it, the
screen off watching or listeningexperience, there have to drop
that as a premium offering. Andthey're gonna have to offer that
to everyone for free. And thenthe way they're going to make
their money back on that is withthings like these audio ads. So

(17:00):
that's the great thing aboutYouTube controlling the whole
platform like soup to nuts, theythey own it all. So they that
Apple absolutely know if you'rewatching or not watching screens
on or off. And since they serveads in like a streaming format,
real time, it could switch. Soif you're watching a video, and
it's getting ready to show youlike a display video ad, but
then you turn your phone off putin your pocket, like right

(17:21):
before that ad is served up toyou, they could switch it to an
audio only add an audio onlyversion of the same ad or a
completely different ad. So it'ssmart. What's discouraging is
that CPM that $2 to $8, and thena 45%. Cut that's brutal. That
is way low. And I don't know,like, we don't know anything
about what YouTube's reallydoing. So like, are they going

(17:41):
to allow you to opt in or out ofthat? I mean, if my podcast was
on YouTube, and they were payingme a $2, CPM and taking 45%, I
would turn those ads off asquickly as I can, if they give
you the option, but they mightnot even give you the option,
they might just do it. So we'llhave to see how this plays out.

Alban (17:57):
I pulled these numbers to give like that point of
comparison, the final amount ofmoney in your pocket. If you're
doing YouTube CPM, for every1000 views, it ends up being
about one to $4. Okay, that'syour piece of the pie. If you
use Buzzsprout ads, you'relooking at $14 consistently in
your pocket for 1000. Placeadvertised cast. I don't know

(18:20):
what percent they take, but theysell about $24 on average.

Kevin (18:25):
Yeah, those are host read though, it's a different
comparison.

Alban (18:27):
I'm just trying to give I guess, audio versus where
YouTube is, yeah, and it's anorder of magnitude difference.
Like it's literally $1 to $4.
And then we're up in the 20s or14 at least, as your takeaway.
So it's quite a bit different. Ithink this is just the different
world do you end up in? WhenYouTube is providing all the
distribution for you, you know,they're saying, Hey, we're

(18:49):
finding these people for you. Soyou should be excited for what
you get, versus you went and youbuilt the audience yourself. So
just kind of an interestingcomparison to look at. It's very
different world audio versusvideo. I don't know if YouTube
is going to be able to get theaudio CPM up there.

Kevin (19:08):
I think that is a good distinction. I think YouTube
looks at it through the lens ofyou created the content, but we
did everything else. We foundnot only advertisers to
advertise against your content,but we also found your audience
for you. We brought youraudience to you. I think that's
how they look at it. I've neverreally heard a YouTube person
say that, but we look at some ofthese numbers. Like that's what
the numbers tell you. They thinkthey're bringing a lot of value

(19:30):
to the relationship. When inpodcasting, the numbers seem to
reflect the reality of what'shappening in podcasting, which
is not only do you create thecontent, but you also built the
audience. And so you'recompensated for like, you know,
all of that. Usually when you'redoing something like Buzzsprout
ads or host read self sale adprogrammatic, not so much. Those
numbers are still a little bitlow, but they might be starting

(19:52):
to trickle up a little bit. Ithink we've seen that. But there
is some sort of recognition inpodcasting that not only are you
creating the content, but you'realso marketing your Don't when
building your audience andthat's what we're interested in
gaining access to. So we'll payfor that. When you go into the
YouTube world, I think they takecredit for the audience
building.

Jordan (20:08):
Oh, yeah, big time. And researching what the like
average CPM for like a YouTubead would be. I saw so many sites
that said like, basically, thehighest amount of CPM that
they've like seen is $10. So $10Minus the 45%. And that still
only comes out to like, what$5.50? Well, and minus taxes.

(20:29):
So, I mean...

Alban (20:30):
Did either of you read this article by Tom Webster
about podcast competition thisweek?

Jordan (20:35):
Yes, it was so good.

Alban (20:37):
So this was in sounds profitable. And Tom kind of
starts at this point of like,Who are you competing with kind
of the standard thing? We'veheard everybody talk about a
million times? How many podcastsaren't there? Is it too late?
Who am I competing with? Do Ihave a chance, and he kind of
approached it from a differentangle. He said, when he wrote a
book, when he quickly realizedwas, he wrote it, but the

(21:01):
publisher, publisher, they wereactually going to print it, but
they weren't going to market it.
They didn't do any work to sellit. He was responsible for every
single sale of the book. Herealized, okay, so I'm not
actually competing against otherbooks. It wasn't a question of
how many books are there in theworld? The question was, how
much can I compete against myown obscurity? Like, can I get

(21:21):
my name out there, it was lessimportant that there are 12
other books on the subject, itwas more important that he had
12,000 Twitter followers and100,000 people on an email list
or something. Those were thestats that were important. And I
think what you're kind ofsaying, when we talk about the
CPMs, and podcasters arebringing the audience kind of

(21:41):
goes to what Tom's point was,which is, it doesn't matter how
many other YouTube channelsthere are and podcasts there are
and blogs, what matters are howmany people can you bring to
this thing? Because if YouTube'sbringing everybody, they're
going to say I think we shouldtake at least 45% of the money
here. Where if you're the onebringing it in podcast, and

(22:02):
you're saying, Hey, I'm sendingit out to my email list, and I'm
going to meetups and I'm goingto conference speaking and
talking about my show, thenyou're able to command a much
larger percentage of any moneythat's made off of it.

Kevin (22:16):
Yeah, I think about you know, YouTube's perspective on
it as got to be, hey, ifsomebody comes to YouTube, we've
got plenty of content to showthem. Like Alvin, you did a
great video here. But you knowwhat, like, if that your video
is not here, it's not like it'shurting us, we've got plenty of
stuff to show them. And we'regetting really good at keeping
people on our platform servingup relevant content, with or

(22:38):
without your little show. It'svery different for people who
are competing in the podcastspace, which is when you fire up
a podcast app. And it's not likethere's a lot of really great
content being pushed at you, youkind of have to go search it
out. Like everyone's trying itApple podcast is doing a good
job, they have a bunch ofdifferent charts and they're
trying to surface some of thebest content. I don't know if

(23:00):
anybody's, you know, trying tomake smart recommendations based
on other listening other thingsyou've listened to, I've seen a
little bit of that in Applepodcasts, good pods is really
pushing into the everyone'strying to help podcasters build
an audience. But still, it'svery much on the podcaster to
really build that audience. Ithink YouTube's a totally
different world, YouTube, theydon't you know, they don't
really need us, they don'treally need any content creator.

(23:22):
You can see the evidence ofthat, when it's like they don't
hesitate at all to D platform Dmonetize huge creators, when
they do something that violatestheir policy, you might think
that would be a huge deal whenlike pewdiepie at the time he
was demonetized was I think thenumber one YouTube channel and
you're like, how could they dothat's crazy. Nine, he went off
the rails a little bit with someof his videos for sure. Not

(23:44):
saying they shouldn't have. ButI don't think that's a huge
issue for YouTube. Because eventhe biggest creators on their
platform are still a very smallfraction of the total viewership
that's taking place in theplatform.

Alban (23:56):
Yeah, the only corollary to that in podcasting is
Spotify. They're like we havethe people, they come here to
listen to music. And we areincentivized right now for them
to be listened to podcastinginstead. So we don't have to pay
these annoying music licensingmonies anymore. So will show
podcast if it's good. Andthey're in the driver's seat.

(24:17):
And I think YouTube has been inthe driver's seat, the idea that
you would cut off your numberone channel, because you don't
agree with the content. Thatmeans like, we know we're in
control here, we're not going tolose our business over the fact
that we're now going to kick youoff the platform or upset you.
So I think that's a really goodpoint, Kevin, I've told you this
thing before my Field of Dreamsmarketing, like build it, and

(24:39):
they will come everybodyimagines like the creation of
the thing is like all the work.
We believe in our heart thatlike Field of Dreams. 1989 movie
Kevin Costner is like, actuallyreality if you build the thing,
then all the people will come ifI build this app Every one will
come and buy it. If I make thispodcast, then everyone will

(25:02):
listen to it. If I create aYouTube channel, everyone will
come. But the sad reality is,that doesn't happen, like the
ghosts from old baseball gamesare not going to show up to your
baseball field if you create itin the middle of Iowa. And it's
not going to you're not going tohave a number one podcast just
because you recorded theepisodes.

Jordan (25:23):
It's kind of like that whole saying of every overnight
success took years to make. It'sthere's something to that effect
is very much like that. And Ithink that there are rare cases
of where people get lucky andmaybe go viral for whatever
reason. But it's just not afeasible marketing strategy to
just kind of sit and hope.

Alban (25:43):
Yeah, it's super alluring when we see these stories of
like, authors who die and thenafter their death, their book is
discovered, and it goes likemassive. So Confederacy of
Dunces is maybe an example ofthat, or you know, a painter who
after the life is now recognizedas a master. That just is not
the way things really happen.
What really happens is somebodyblogs for years about the same

(26:07):
topic, and they build up a baseand everyone's listening to them
and reading their newsletter.
And then they write atomichabits. And everyone's like, Oh,
James clear. I've been readinghis blog for 10 years. And then
it becomes a New York Timesbestseller. It's not that he
wrote a book in obscurity. Andall of a sudden, I got big, he
built this audience, veryspecific audience for years and

(26:30):
years. And then when he releasedthe book, it fit perfectly. So
just like is a good reminderthat when we are creating
content online, if our goal is Ineed to get a massive audience
and I need for me to besuccessful. You can't just
create the content. There alsoneeds to be this other half,
which is the marketing anddistribution of that content.

Jordan (26:54):
Back in July, TikTok filed for a trademark for TikTok
Music and this caught a lot ofpeople's attention and they were
wondering, could this mean thatpodcasts are coming to TikTok?
And then this week, somethingelse happened that's kind of
indicating that yeah, I thinkTikTok is moving into
podcasting, too.

Alban (27:15):
Yeah, so they've had this TikTok Music platform. Think of
it as like a very primitivesmall competitor to Amazon music
or Apple Music or Spotify. Ithink it's called Resso. And
reso actually does have podcastsin it. And so as soon as we saw
Tik Tok say, hey, maybe there'llbe a TikTok Music, everyone's
going, will shoot if it's builtoff that Resso thing. You guys

(27:37):
have that ByteDance runs that isprobably gonna have podcasts on
it. And at the same time, aFrench podcasting app said they
started seeing all their feedsstart getting scraped up two
weeks ago. And so they starteddigging into it. And there's all
this evidence kind of startingto line up, like so the IPs are
all related to vite dance. It'sdefinitely written in Go, which

(28:01):
is what tick tock is written inis the language they use. There
are a bunch of different thingsthat indicate that is tick tock.
So I actually reached out to Tomand Brian, the whole
infrastructure team, and waslike, hey, the sad thing about
this? And he, I mean, it'sblowing us up for sure. Yeah, so

(28:21):
the user agent and all the IPSand everything, like, we're
talking hundreds of 1000s ofrequests, there's definitely
something that is trying tolearn about everyone's fees. We,
I think almost immediatelyidentified it as a bot. And so
you wouldn't ever see this inyour stats, like a big part of
providing the most accuratestats that we can, is

(28:43):
identifying bot behavior andsay, Okay, anything they want to
do with audio files, like, thosedon't count as a download or
play. So you wouldn't have seenit in your stats, but we
definitely see it on our side.
There is someone who's writtenthis script. And they look like
they're tick tock, and they'rehighly interested in learning
about as many of the openpodcasts that are out there. So

(29:04):
we don't know anything for sure.
But there's definitely evidencestarting to line up in this
direction.

Kevin (29:11):
Yeah, so I noticed and I shared this last week with Albin
that I was watching some videothat my daughter sent me on
TikTok. And the next video thatpopped up was we're podcasters.
So I was watching it, like,yeah, TikTok's smart. They know
I'm into podcasts, right? Sothere shouldn't be a podcast or
video. And a segment from a showit had video was two people

(29:32):
sitting at a desk withmicrophones talking to each
other. And then when that videowas over, it popped up a ad like
something that I could clickthrough. So trying, I guess,
trying to encourage me not tojust go scroll to the next video
but to interact with this ad. SoI went back watched it again,
it's a sponsored post. It was asegment from a podcast and the
ad prompted with a like a listennow button. And if you click the

(29:54):
Listen now button, you weretaken to a web page that set up
I think specifically for thiscampaign. In that just had two
big buttons, one listening onApple and the other was
listening on Spotify. And if youtapped either one of those, it
would jump you out of the Tiktokapp, right and Apple podcasts or
right into Spotify. So it couldbe this new audio like podcast
ad format that they're testing.
And they might need to bescraping feeds or lining things

(30:17):
up to be able to verify likewhat you are advertising is
actually a podcast withlegitimate feed. It could be
that they're adding podcastsinto Tik Tok. I don't know. But
they seem to have an interest inpodcasts for sure, not only with
the evidence that we're seeingin the Buzzsprout logs, but also
what I'm seeing just interactingwith tick tock seeing podcasters
advertising their shows throughTikTok.

Alban (30:39):
Is the UI that you just experienced, do you think that
that TikTok made that and that'san ad format that you can use,
it's like, hey, advertise allsorts of different things. And
if it's a product, we send youto Shopify, and if it's, you
know, if it's a book you we sendyou to kindle or something to
buy it. And if it's a podcast,we send you to Apple or Spotify,

(31:00):
or do you think is just kind oflike a smart podcast or goes,
Hey, I've got a new marketingidea. And they kind of use an
existing format to fit whatthey're doing.

Kevin (31:09):
I think it's a little of both, I think TikTok built the
first half of that UI, which issomehow they said, I'm going to
create like a sponsored post ontick tock, and I'm going to be
advertising, I think theyprobably chose podcast or music
app or something, because itprompted with a listen now

(31:29):
button. And then from there, itwent to a website. And I think
that's where the handoff was. Sothat could have just linked to
anybody's website with anything.
This particular website seems tobe a landing page for this
particular ad, because it isjust showing the podcast
artwork, and then a couple ofbig "listen now" buttons.

Jordan (31:47):
You know, what I'm really hoping for with this is
if you're watching like a TikTokor an Instagram reel, or
something like that, or if youcreate one, a lot of times, what
you can do is you can actuallylike click out of like, TikTok,
if there's a song that you likethat someone's using, you can
click out of that and then likeactually be taken to the song
itself for the artists andthings like that. So my hope is

(32:09):
that podcasters can use it as amarketing tool, not just like
with like running a campaign.
But also if it can link to theirpodcast episodes, and they could
create like a tick tock or otherpeople could use their episode
as like a soundbite for theirtic tock or their Instagram
reel. And then that would belike, really awesome. That would
be so ideal, I would be so happyif they had something like that,

(32:31):
because then I could personallyuse tick tock or Instagram reels
because I can't right now itdoesn't make sense for me to do
it.

Alban (32:38):
So let me give a an idea of why I think that may not be
the beautiful future that we'llget.

Jordan (32:44):
You're gonna rain on my parade? No.

Alban (32:48):
So if something goes viral on Tiktok, there's a viral
sound, it almost directlycorrelates with that song going
viral on Spotify. And there's abig overlap. So even when I was
researching how people marketpodcasts on TikTok, all of them
said if he goes viral, mySpotify numbers shoot up, they
didn't see as much happening onother apps and things just

(33:09):
because TikTok and Spotify for alot of people are very
connected. If you're on one,you're probably on the other.
And I think this TikTok music isthem saying okay, we're kind of
doing all the work or we we payfor these little clips, we
licensed the music. We've gotall the infrastructure built in,

(33:30):
we've got the amazing AI thatjust makes you sit there and
watch hours and hours a TikTokat a time. And then when music
goes viral, we're sending allthat traffic over to somebody
else. And now Spotify is a sweetbusiness, and I feel bad for us.
I wonder if tiktoks saying hey,we're gonna do tick tock music
is them saying? Why does thatneed to go to Spotify, we have

(33:52):
the distribution, if anyone'sgoing to get the reap the
benefits of this shouldn't beus. If you click a artist
shouldn't open up our other appfor people to listen to it. If
you want to listen to the wholesong, listen to it in our app.
And so combine that with thepiece of information we have
about reso their existing musicapp has podcasts in it. I feel

(34:15):
like TikTok is probably justsaying we're going to be
positioned exactly opposite ofSpotify. Have our own app for
all audio. And if anything goesviral on Tiktok Hey, come listen
to more. But do that over withus don't go somewhere totally
different.

Jordan (34:31):
See, I don't think that that actually does rain on my
parade because that just likefully supports what my idea was
originally if if Tik Tok musicis the one scraping these
podcasts and they're alsopopulating podcasts into Tik Tok
music then that means that likeTikTok videos can link to those
podcasts. So I think I might beright.

Kevin (34:51):
Yeah, one of the things tic tac does is they certainly
license a lot of music forpeople to be able to use those
sounds to create videos but theyalso give creators The ability
for anything that they push intotic toc that they can make their
content available as a sound intheir sound library. So you'll
see that all the time on ticktock like people will comment on
you'll, you'll be watching avideo, it's whatever two people

(35:13):
interacting and it's kind offunny or something like that
people in the comments will say,please make this sound like I
want to do at it. Like you setthe rights to your content that
you push them to tick tock soyou say if it's available for a
duet, you say if people can usethe sound without the audio,
whatever. And so it would benice if they do work podcasting
into Tik Tok, somehow, if theygive podcasters the ability to
say yes, the sound is available,which is you saying I give the

(35:37):
Tiktok universe the rights to myaudio to use it and do what you
want with it. So if you thinkthis bit on Buzzcast is pretty
funny, and we check the box itsays people can use it as a
sound, then you might startseeing other people creating
videos on Tiktok who are likelip syncing over our voices but
doing their own funnyinteractions.

Jordan (35:52):
Yeah, exactly.

Kevin (35:53):
That could be big for podcasting people.

Alban (35:55):
Lip syncing this podcast is not going to be big for
podcasting.

Kevin (35:59):
This is what's gonna push it over the edge.

Jordan (36:02):
Now just wait till we go viral.

Kevin (36:03):
You wait until we have our first viral sound we're
gonna blow up. Yeah. And it'snice because the sound is always
tracked back to the originalcontent.

Jordan (36:10):
Yes.

Kevin (36:11):
And pages if you have them and then potentially maybe
link through to your originalpodcast.

Jordan (36:16):
Please make this true. I want it so bad.

Kevin (36:18):
Yeah, I think it's like a perfect fit for like a dream for
that type of stuff. Like tellingstories. And you can see parents
doing their own versions of thatfor their kids or something and
putting them on TikTok.

Jordan (36:27):
Or people playing that over those, you know, I-- Well,
I've watched a lot of thosethings where people are doing
like watercolors like it's justa like video of someone doing
like a beautiful watercolor. Andthen there's like audio over the
top of it. It's my dream forthat to happen. I want that for
my podcast. I want someone to becreating something really pretty
and then just like my stuff inthe background, I would love it.

Kevin (36:47):
It'd be a beautiful video and then people would want to
know where did that sound comefrom? who's reading that story?
Who's doing that? And they wouldfind your podcasts from it.

Jordan (36:54):
Where's that siren's voice? Where can I get more of
that? That's what I want peopleto say.

Kevin (37:00):
Do you want to be a siren's voice? Didn't the sirens
end up killing a lot of sailors?

Alban (37:04):
The voice was so good they ran into the rocks. I think
that's a it's a compliment.

Kevin (37:09):
Yeah, but I think they were like they were murderers?
These sirens.

Jordan (37:12):
Yeah, they'd like lure them to their death.

Kevin (37:15):
You're the murderer.

Alban (37:16):
All right, Jordan. I know this makes you cringe. But you
posted a I think pretty funnyreview that we got on Apple
podcasts into like our groupchat. Can I Can I read it on
air? I know you hate reading atthe read reviews.

Jordan (37:30):
I'll allow it.

Alban (37:31):
This is from JJ Lemieux my bar is set pretty high when
it comes to shows giving quoteunquote, advice. This podcast
does that and much more in greattone. Unlike 90% of podcasters
who all believe they'recomedians. The crew on this
podcast uses humor withouttrying too hard. Keep up what
you're doing. And I responded. Ilove that the compliment on this

(37:55):
is that we know we're not funny.

Kevin (37:58):
We know we're not comedians.

Jordan (37:59):
The humor is that we're just so stupid.

Alban (38:03):
These guys know they're not funny, which is palatable to
me. It's the podcasters whothink they're comedians. They're
the ones who get under yourskin. JJ, we appreciate you.
Thank you for leaving us areview. This is not a promise
that we will read reviews.
Because Jordan has asked to thispart of the show.

Jordan (38:21):
This is a promise we will not read reviews.

Alban (38:23):
I love it. I love reading reviews but Jordan's barred that
from the rest of this show.

Jordan (38:28):
Yeah.
So it's spooky season here inthe Pacific Northwest. We do
like the campfire stories in theautumn. And I've got my
flashlight here.

Kevin (38:42):
Oh my gosh.

Jordan (38:44):
And I'm gonna read some podcasting horror stories.

Alban (38:47):
You're like the YouTube ads. They're audio only so that
no one understands what'shappening. Jordan has a
flashlight shining into herface.

Jordan (38:55):
I have transformed. I'm in a dark and spooky wood. And
there's like campfire cracklingin front of me and I've got like
a flashlight under my chin. Theycan see it.

Kevin (39:05):
I got it.

Jordan (39:06):
That's the magic of podcasting.

Kevin (39:08):
I'm gonna close my eyes and envision this. Here we are.

Jordan (39:12):
Alright, so our first story comes from Angie. I work
with podcasters so this one dayI was recording an online
training like an hour into it.
My throat was absolutely killingme. And I was like pushed
through. The training ended upbeing an hour and 40 minutes.
But when I went to review therecording, I realized my mic was
off the entire time.

Alban (39:36):
Oh no,

Kevin (39:40):
I don't understand how that can happen. How did they
she was talking to them theydidn't hear?

Alban (39:44):
This wasn't live?

Jordan (39:45):
She was doing like a recording before it was like one
of those like training recordingthings where you like do the
video and you record yourself.
The mic was off for an hour and40 minutes.

Alban (39:57):
I think I've got a horror story that might even be worse
than,

Jordan (40:01):
Oh, I want to hear it.

Alban (40:02):
When I first started working for Kevin, this is
before I was doing any work onBuzzsprout. I think it was
working on our time trackingsoftware tick, I started doing
these things where I would havepeople come in and do a little
webinar and demo the product.
But if you have the chat goingduring it, like, you just get
distracted. So I turn off thechat. And I'd start. And then at
the end of like, the 20 minutes,you come back, and then you go

(40:24):
through the q&a. What do youthink the top question was? Got
back?

Kevin (40:31):
Yeah, why can't we hear you?

Alban (40:32):
Can you turn on your screen and share it for all of
us? It's a running chat room.
I'm not not like one person,like 10 people stuck it out. And
they're all commenting. Yeah, Idefinitely doesn't have a screen
on his show screen on. Whydoesn't anyone hear us? Why Does
anyone see these? And then Ijust came back. And it was like,
wow, okay, I'll restart fromhere. And we just did it all

(40:56):
again.

Jordan (40:58):
Oh, my gosh, that's really bad.

Alban (41:03):
It's really bad.

Jordan (41:05):
Alright, so next we have one from podcast brown Park. We
were in the middle ofinterviewing Clint bone lead
singer of the Australian band,The Butterfly Effect went out of
nowhere. The picture behind himstarted to wobble, fell off the
wall and smashed. All thewindows were closed, and there
was no wind. That's like a truespooky story.

Alban (41:27):
Next is a ghost.

Kevin (41:29):
The ghost story. Oh my god. That's weird. So there was
video and they could see it. Butthe podcast I had no idea this
was happening and see itwobbling.

Jordan (41:37):
I think it was like a it was a video chat. And like,
yeah, they were looking at theguy. And behind him this picture
just started wobbling and thenit came off the wall. That would
spook me a little bit.

Kevin (41:47):
I've seen some of those, like on YouTube and stuff. I
mean, they're probably like, setup fake videos where you know,
like your shit. They're chattingwith somebody and there's
somebody moving behind them orsomething. And they have no
idea. Yeah, but they see moreset up.

Alban (41:57):
Yeah, like that documentary Paranormal Activity
2.

Jordan (42:05):
Okay, so next up, we have one from Diane. I was in
the middle of recording anepisode of my podcast, and felt
something landed my hair midsentence. I touched it. Oh, and
it stung me. Twice. Oh, it was aYellow Jacket.

Alban (42:25):
Why is there a yellow jacket in their house?

Jordan (42:27):
And then she said, Yep, I got all the screaming and
cussing recorded. She sent methe audio clip of it actually.
It's very funny.

Kevin (42:36):
That is funny. I would listen to that show. Yeah.

Jordan (42:39):
Poor thing. It was like a baking show, too. So she's
talking about like, how to setthe oven temperature and stuff.
And then all of a sudden, likeshe's just like Ow! Ow!

Alban (42:49):
oh, cooking, yeah,

Kevin (42:50):
that adds a whole nother level of complexity to it. It's
like you're gonna your kitchensgonna get shut down. Now for
health code violations. Youshould not have Yellowjackets in
your kitchen. Don't

Jordan (42:57):
think Yellow Jackets are violation. I think they're more
of like a safety hazard. This isfrom Adam. He says, I record a
food podcast for a client. Andhe had a southern food legend on
for an interview. She is quiteold, like early 90s. So after

(43:18):
the interview, the host went offon how she's so old and out of
it and how it was such a badinterview. She had it actually
disconnected. And she had heardeverything he said, Oh, we had
to back the interview. And ofcourse, apologize. That's a
horrible, horrible story.

Alban (43:37):
Yeah, that was the worst by a mile. That's not even
funny.

Jordan (43:41):
No, it's not funny at all. Like that's like horror
story. Oh, that's likesecondhand embarrassment. And
the sad story

Kevin (43:48):
that's so bad. I'll give you my tip for success. I mean,
you try not to do that in thefirst place. Right? Like keep
your emotions to yourself. Butif you do have to have a hard
conversation with somebodyafterward about like, that
wasn't good for this reason.
That's about somebody inparticular, I always switch
methods of communication. Likeif if we're in a text chat, I
will call them. If we're talkingon the phone. I'll be like, I'm

(44:08):
gonna text you my feedback onthat later. Like I do totally no
other method of communicationthat the other person I know
part of, because I don't want torisk hurting anybody's feelings
if I have to say something hard.

Jordan (44:18):
Yeah, that's not even like a podcasting tip. That's
just like a life hack. Yeah. Sookay, so Adam actually had
another one. He says, I had afamous actor surprise me in the
studio for a first time meeting.
And as he came in, I wascurrently looking at his
Wikipedia page with his pictureon it, trying to see what he's
done. He totally saw it. That'sembarrassing. I can look at

(44:41):
that. You could I'd be soembarrassed. No.

Kevin (44:47):
I know. I'd be like, I'm just doing my research on you.
You've done some interestingstuff. This is great.

Alban (44:53):
I'd be proud of it. Yeah, I feel like I can live with all
of these except for insulting a90 year old famous A baker that
say like, oh, you're totally outof it, I would do the others and
cringe that one would be nextlevel,

Jordan (45:08):
I'd be mortified.

Kevin (45:09):
But you know what I feel like that should have happened.
That's the right outcome forthat, like, nobody should tear
somebody down because they werethey obviously I'm thinking this
person came on your show andgave him your best effort. And
if you didn't like it, like it'stotally within your rights to
back the interview, but don'ttalk bad about him. That's not
cool. Yeah, you deserve to

Jordan (45:26):
be clear. This was not Adam. This was a client of his
that often the lady was not.
He's he's in the clear.

Kevin (45:34):
I gotcha. Thank you for sharing. Adam. Good story.

Alban (45:36):
Yeah. Thank you for the horror stories, if you want to
submit other horror stories fornext year. Oh, yeah, we won't
have another recording before,October 31. So maybe in the next
year, we will collect podcasthorror stories. Yeah, and make a
whole episode out of it

Jordan (45:52):
would be fun. That'd be really fun.

Kevin (45:57):
You know what time it is.
It's time for Mazouz. So wedon't talk a lot about how you
boost once in a while we do. ButI think it's a good chance to
give a good reminder, somebodyasked Jordan about it this week.
So I want to remind everyonethat if you want to boost our
show, there's two really greatapps that are available you can
download on your phone to listento podcast and boost through one
of them is fountain. I thinkit's fountain.fm. I think is

(46:19):
that right? Can somebody confirmthat for me? Yes, fountain.fm.
But you can definitely just goto the App Store. And whatever
phone you have, I think it's iOSand Android search for fountain
podcast, or fountain podcasting,you'll find the mountain app,
download it, and then you'regonna, they're gonna have pretty
good like tutorials of show youhow to get a little bit of money
in there, that money, yourdollars are converted to sets,
don't worry about that, like theconversion thing, just like if

(46:41):
you put $10 in, you're gonna geta certain amount of sets, it's
probably going to be like 20,000sets or something like that. And
then you can start sending thosesets out. So as you're listening
to shows shows that are valuefor value enabled, we'll get a
little boost button that'lllight up next to them. And when
you see the button illuminated,tap it, you can send a message,
you can change the number ofsets that you want to send. And
that's how you boost a show. Theother app that we recommend is

(47:03):
cast thematic CAS T A ma T ICcast ematic. You can search for
that in the app store of yourchoice. And same type of thing.
You put that into the podcastingwallet and then you look on
shows you listen to them.
There's buttons light up, youtap it, that's how you boost the
show. We've got a few booststhis week, and I'll kick it over

(47:24):
to Alvin and Jordan to readtheir own.

Alban (47:26):
Alright, first boost is from Jean been, y'all should
send 1% to LB and view yourboost with Saturn Saturn dot fly
dot Dev, and now shows the fullboost amount.

Kevin (47:39):
Yeah, I like that idea.
I'll check out Saturn and giveit a shot that dot dev extension
it's like that d v instead ofyou know.com or dot biz or.fm
That makes me a little nervousmakes it sound like development.
Like it's still in development,but whatever. I like new things.
So yeah, I'll give it a shot.
We'll check it out for next weekand we'll follow up thanks Jean
been G means

Alban (47:58):
actually got some follow up. So I'll just read all three
of his together. The secondArby's Saturn has a leaderboard
stuff for booths as well. Hesaid Arby's. Like RV, who made
an app called

Kevin (48:14):
RV roast beef sandwich and look at your stats at

Jordan (48:17):
St. Louis does the roast beef sandwich that'd be great
actually.

Alban (48:21):
Business boost does an Arby's roast beef sandwich. And
then followed up by the way allthree of these boosts are for
1337 aka leet boost numerologywise, I don't know that

Kevin (48:36):
is I don't know what elite means either.

Alban (48:38):
You don't know elite means no,

Jordan (48:39):
no. Oh,

Alban (48:40):
both of you have really missed out on like Halo to 4004

Jordan (48:46):
Oh, I guess yeah, like I play Halo, but I don't recognize
late at all.

Alban (48:51):
So Leon is like the opposite of a noob. Do you know
what a noob is?

Jordan (48:56):
Oh, yeah. Gotta pull in all those noobs Yeah, so

Kevin (48:59):
that's somebody who's new to the game?

Alban (49:01):
Yeah. Okay, so poan and leet. And all these words is
called leet. Speak. Lee is aleet. Like, you're extremely
good. Latos you see, like, leethackers. For somebody who's
really good at breaking intosomething. It's mostly used
ironically. But if you ever seethat, like letters and numbers

(49:21):
mixed together, and likeinternet speak, that is called
leet speak interesting, totallyuseless, but it's funny. So
thank you GV for our eliteboosts. That's

Jordan (49:31):
awesome. And then we have 2000 sets from at mere
mortals podcast, and oh, they'resaying pretty much same thing
gene being there just supportingwhat Gene mean is saying here,
maybe you should try outincluding an lb address split
and link it to Saturn dot Dev.
This will give you the abilityto quickly and by quickly I
mean, it will still take 2030seconds to see where the boost
occurred with the audio trackright below. So I think that

(49:53):
they're calling out Kevin'sresistance to checking timestamp
Same thing it takes too long.

Kevin (50:03):
Yeah, I'm picking up on that. Yeah, I need systems. So
this is good. I need systems.
Because this, the system I'musing now is it doesn't work to
be able to track it back to aspecific timestamp, or see who's
given the most boost. We don'thave like a leaderboard or
anything like that. So I likeit. I'm gonna check it out.
Maybe in two weeks, I'll havesome better information. For
booths that come through, Iwould like to add,

Alban (50:24):
we've had quite a few people talk about being able to
give us booths and send instuff, I wanted to open another
avenue for people to givefeedback to the show or comments
for the show. That's not tied tocrypto. So if you just don't
like crypto or you're not, youknow, technically savvy enough,
or you just are like, I'm notgetting into a whole nother app,

(50:45):
if anybody ever wants to reachout to me on a DM on Twitter,
and just include the fact thatthis is something for Buzzcast.
We'll go ahead and we'll committo starting to include those as
well. So to have a second way,maybe we could put an email
address at some point, butwanted to provide an alternative
way that you could submitcomments for the show without

Jordan (51:04):
opening up a whole nother podcasting app. Yeah, why
don't we have a Buzzcast email?

Alban (51:08):
I mean, that could be something we do as well, I think
that they're able to do thephone number, so people can
leave voicemails. I'd like tohave other ways for people. We
could do a pot inbox. We coulddo a pod inbox, hot inbox

Jordan (51:20):
is fantastic for that.
All right. I think that wraps upour show. So with that, thank
you for listening and keeppodcasting

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