May 16, 2025 • 19 mins
We're digging into a recent trend showing up in podcast feeds: bonus episodes labeled “You Might Also Like” that are actually full episodes from completely different shows. We look at what’s behind this, how companies like PodRoll are using dynamic feed drops to scale podcast promotions, and why this can feel different from a traditional feed drop or ad.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alban (00:00):
All right, welcome back to Buzzcast.
We're trying somethingdifferent for today's quick cast
.
I will be your host,Alban Brooke, and with me are
Jordan and Kevin.
Kevin's a little under theweather, so pardon the voice.
Kevin (00:13):
What do you mean by host?
You mean like, you mean likediscussion leader?
I'm the group leader today.
Alban (00:19):
Okay.
Jordan (00:19):
I'm the captain now.
Alban (00:21):
I'm the podcast host now.
Kevin (00:25):
All right, host, where are we going?
Alban (00:26):
All right, so I went on to X and I guess I looked at my
messages for the first time inlike two months
Jordan (00:33):
Yeah.
Alban (00:33):
I had a message from Family History Drama podcast and
they were like you know, thismight be something for you to
look into, cause I noticedsomething weird when I'm
listening to a podcast.
It was Tom Bilyeu's ImpactTheory.
Sorry if I mispronounce thatpodcast name.
He's like okay, so he sent mesome screenshots and they're in
the outline and here's what'shappening.
(00:56):
He got two notifications forthis podcast, like back to back,
and one's for a normal episode.
But there was another and itlooks like an episode.
It's from the same podcast andit says you might also like on
purpose with Jay Shetty, labeledas this bonus episode.
So when they went back andlooked like there's other times
(01:18):
this is happening, these same,you might also like episodes,
and so they wrote these same youmight also like episodes, and
so they wrote.
I'm surprised when a suggestedepisode release from a podcast I
listened to is actually just apromotion of somebody else's
podcast.
Is there money changing handsin these deals?
Is this like a?
You scratch my back, I'llscratch yours.
(01:38):
Feed drop.
What's going on?
Kevin (01:41):
Can I just say I hate that figure of speech, the
scratching back thing.
It just makes me.
Alban (01:46):
Also, it doesn't make sense Like I'll scratch your
back if you scratch mine.
Kevin (01:50):
Yeah, that's never happened in real life.
It's very weird that thatbecame a popular figure of
speech.
Jordan (01:55):
Yes.
Kevin (01:56):
Was there a time in society when that was the normal
thing?
You were like hey can youscratch my back?
Alban (02:00):
No way, man, not unless you're walking in.
You're gonna scratch mine.
And it's not like the two ofthem at the same time.
Both had a need for a backscratch.
Back scratch is like once in awhile you're like, oh, it really
itches in the one spot.
I can't get to.
Jordan (02:14):
So yeah, point, I think my daughter kind of does this.
She'll sit on the couch with meand we do like the side hug
thing and then you just likescratch each other's back yeah,
and that's a very sweet motherdaughter thing, but it's not.
Kevin (02:23):
It's not a contractual agreement that you're making
with somebody.
Jordan (02:26):
Like you and Alban probably wouldn't be caught
doing that.
Alban (02:29):
But it's like the business guys are the ones who
are saying it.
They're like, okay, thispartnership is, I'll scratch
your back if you scratch mine,right.
And it's like no, no, no, thisis a.
I give you money and you giveme, like, all right, is this
just a gift back and forth?
Is it a promo swap?
Is it something else?
That's what I startedinvestigating and I did some,
(02:52):
especially since they seem to beconsistent.
They always say you might alsolike, and then the name of the
podcast, and then they drop injust this full episode.
Kevin (03:03):
So is it the name of the podcast you might also like, and
then a podcast name, right?
And then you don't even reallysee the episode title until you
click on it, or something.
Alban (03:11):
Yeah, so like this one that was dropped in that we have
a screenshot of it says You MayAlso Like: On Purpose with Jay
Shetty.
On Purpose is the name of thepodcast and then in the
description it's likeintroducing Lizzo exclusive and
she has a.
I guess it's a episodeinvolving Lizzo, but the name of
that episode is not in thetitle.
Jordan (03:33):
Yeah, I noticed on one of the feeds of a podcast that I
was listening to this morningthere was a bonus episode that
dropped in their feed and itsaid you might also like the
Oprah podcast.
Alban (03:43):
You might.
Jordan (03:44):
Yeah, I might, but I keep marking this episode as
played because I don't want itto keep surfacing.
And it keeps re-upping, which Ithought was strange for a feed
drop.
I've never seen that happen ina feed drop before.
Kevin (03:54):
Did either of you tap on these to listen to them?
Jordan (03:56):
Well, it was in a true crime podcast feed and I was
like that's kind of a weirdchoice and so I didn't listen to
it.
I guess.
Kevin (04:01):
I'm wondering if they are just straight up feed drops,
like it's just the regularepisode, or if the host of the
podcast you're listening to isintroing it and saying why they
think you might like it.
Alban (04:12):
Yeah, they're just the episode.
Okay, the host is not sayinglike, hey, my great friend Jay
Shetty, and he does this otherpodcast called on purpose and we
often collaborate and he's beenon the show.
You know him, he does a podcastand I thought today I'd love to
drop it in.
No, it's just a.
You're in a new episode.
A little bit disoriented.
Jordan (04:31):
Yeah, and it's.
It has their full episodedescription with all their links
to support the show andeverything in it.
So it's yeah.
So if I click the Oprah podcastand I hit play, it goes
immediately into Oprah'sintroduction of the guest that's
on her episode.
So there's no priming for it,nothing, it's just there.
Kevin (04:52):
And one more question Are they dropping at the same time?
So when the hosting podcast isdropping a real episode, they're
also dropping this bonus rightnext to it?
Alban (04:59):
Yeah, these are good questions, Kevin.
These are all questions that Ithink are kind of hinting at
what's happening and some of thelogic behind it.
But yes, they drop them back toback and they sandwich the
bonus.
You might also like episodebetween two real episodes.
So Buzzcast 100 comes out,Buzzcast 101 is about to go,
(05:24):
Jordan hits publish, and thenyou might also like pod news.
Weekly review drops in andright after that, bus cast one
oh one comes in right behind it,which, from my thought, I'm
like that's actually a slightlybetter experience, because for a
lot of us, if you see a newepisode from a show you're
excited about drop and then youclick on it, no matter how much
(05:46):
you like Oprah or Jay Shettywhen you hear them talking, not
the podcast that you like,you're like what?
No, I don't want to be,recommended something new.
I already know what I like andyou told me you had it, and now
it's a bait and switch, so thesandwiching is better.
Jordan (06:02):
It is better yeah.
Alban (06:03):
But if you search this, this is the naming convention
that they use at PodRoll,podroll being PodRoll capital R,
the company that does dynamicfeed drops, not the podcasting
2.0 feature.
So what they do is PodRoll.
You upload an episode to themand then they will pay
(06:27):
podcasters to drop that episodeinto their feed.
They do some sort of redirectwhere they are measuring whether
or not people actually go andlisten to that episode and
whether or not, I think, thatthey actually migrate over to
your show, since you did thefeed drop to kind of do some
measurement.
But they're always bonusepisodes.
(06:47):
They always start with youmight also like colon and
they've got links and they dothe episode art and all that
stuff and then they drop adisclaimer into the episode
description.
Jordan (07:00):
Yeah.
Alban (07:01):
This is like what they do .
This is the.
You know, this is a companythat's doing this kind of at
scale, and I'm seeing it moreand more.
Jordan (07:08):
Yeah, here's where I'm seeing a flaw in their scaling
of this.
I was reading the disclaimerand'm seeing a flaw in their
scaling of this.
I was reading the disclaimerand I really, I really don't
like this.
It says disclaimer.
Please note this is anindependent podcast episode, not
affiliated with, endorsed by orproduced in conjunction with
the host podcast feed or any ofits media entities.
And I'm just like okay, ifyou're gonna be dropping a
podcast episode into your feedperhaps you should be endorsing
(07:31):
it.
Right Like this is just weird.
Kevin (07:33):
I'm pretty sure you are endorsing it.
Jordan (07:35):
Yeah, if I'm, if I'm being fed an episode from a
completely different podcast, Iwould hope that is one that that
podcast I am subscribed to isendorsing, like this.
It just seems so weird to me.
I don't really like that partof it.
Kevin (07:49):
Yeah, disclaimer or not, they are endorsing it first.
Just like any TV show that runsan ad, you know they're going
to get flack if the ad isoffensive, right?
I mean, like you're takingsponsorship money from this
company.
This company is terrible.
They test their products onanimals or something and they're
going to come after them.
Jordan (08:05):
This happened with Spotify.
Remember when there was a bunchof those like featured promos
popping up on people's podcastsand they were so upset because
Spotify was just putting thesepromos in that it was products
that they would like neverendorse, Like I think it was
like children's podcasts gettinglike whiskey or something like
that.
Alban (08:22):
Oh yeah, there was once where wild Turkey it was just.
It was like an accident, but abunch of wild Turkey ads were
dropped in to shows and some ofthem were kids shows, but some
of them were also uh, one ofthem at least was like a going
sober podcast.
Jordan (08:37):
That's right, everybody's like good grief.
Yeah, but that's the thing islike you don't have that level
of like control and so you'resaying like, yeah, we don't
endorse this, but we're going toput it in our feed, in front of
our audience, like that thisdoes happen actually for all
advertisements that the creatorsare like we want to remain
whole and clean and separate and, oh, we have nothing to do with
(08:59):
those ads.
Alban (09:00):
Like, oh, don't associate us with the ads we're running,
but they definitely want themoney and I'm like you get to
have it one of the two ways.
Either you vet the ads and sayno, and then it's like your
endorsement is there and yourintegrity is there, or you take
the money and you take the hittoo when there's something in
(09:22):
there that's not appropriate andpeople don't like.
You can't take the ad money andthen be like hey, by the way,
we didn't actually endorse that,even though it looks like it.
All we did was take the money,yeah, anyway.
So when I dug into this, themain difference is pod role.
What they're doing is you'llupload an episode and, rather
than you going around and tryingto find somebody to do a feed,
(09:42):
drop and record those intros.
They work with lots of largepodcasts and they will get you
into those podcast feeds andhopefully convert some of those
listeners over to your show.
One of the things I mean atleast what they had in a press
release I found was they claimedto sell the promo episodes for
$50 or more CPM.
(10:02):
So the podcaster is paid if theepisode is downloaded and then
I'm not exactly sure what thecost $50 or more is what you're
paying If you want your showfeatured in other podcasts.
Kevin (10:16):
Yeah, and then you mentioned briefly, like that
they're doing some additionaltracking.
So maybe this is an assumption,but I'm assuming they're
probably doing a URL prefix onboth podcast feeds so that they
can match IPs between whodownloaded the source feed and
then who downloaded somethingfrom the target feed and if we
get an IP match we can assumethat's the same person.
Alban (10:37):
Right, that's the way I would imagine you'd want to run
it.
So I did look at on purposewith Jay Shetty.
They do use the pod rolemeasurement according to pod
news.
So the pod news will anyredirects that they see will
list on that page so I could seethey're using pod role.
That's how I confirmed.
Yeah, that's what this is.
It would be interesting to findwhere these episodes are
(11:01):
showing up right now and whetheror not they have that tracking.
I have noticed, because it tookme a month to get onto X, the
screenshots that I got fromfamily History Drama Podcast.
They're different than what'sin the feed now and so, because
these are CPM based and they'renot forever, they drop it in.
You get your millionimpressions or whatever, and
(11:23):
then they pull it back out.
Jordan (11:24):
Yeah, and I think it's kind of cool that they did
integrate feed drops with howdynamic advertising works.
It's a very interesting take onit, but I don't know me
personally.
I feel the same way about thisas I do about, you know, the
programmatic advertising whereit's just like dropped in and
stuff, whereas I much preferwhen hosts actually endorse what
(11:48):
is going into their content andyou know that they have a
personalized endorsement for it.
They they are saying why theythink it would be a good fit for
their audience.
Alban (11:58):
I just much prefer that, even with feed drops I, I think
feed drops even more, at leastwith an ad.
You roll into the ad theremight be some music.
You say, okay, we're gonna takea quick break.
You have the ads, they.
They feel very different.
Jordan (12:11):
Yeah.
Alban (12:17):
With a feed drop, it can feel like a bit of a bait and
switch.
There's two episodes, so itonly turns out there's only one.
Oh, there's this other thing.
You already feel At least Ioften anytime this happens to me
I feel let down that there'snot a new episode, the show's
not coming back, it's just theywant the promo.
But then if you do click it andthe host that you already have
a relationship with is there tomake the you know, quote unquote
(12:37):
intro, like they're introducingyou.
Oh, here's why I think you wouldlike it, here's why I went out
of my way to give you this showand recommend it.
If that's in there at least,like there's kind of the full
circle is there.
You feel like, oh, I built arelationship with one podcast.
They recommended another.
Okay, I'm willing to take thison.
(12:58):
So I'd like to see if PodRollcould do this.
Do it as more of a matchingservice.
Say, hey, we'd love to matchyou to podcasters.
So now record an intro for thisepisode if you think it's a fit
, and my guess is that's got toat least be twice as valuable as
a listener to hear, oh, there'sactually somebody who I trust
(13:21):
recommending this show, I'm somuch more excited versus I'd
frankly just be frustrated tosee.
Oh, I got a random episode inhere.
I thought it was my favoritepodcast.
No, it's not my favoritepodcast, it's a totally
different podcast I never wouldhave listened to.
Kevin (13:37):
You mentioned this earlier.
The thing that they're reallydoing different is they're doing
it at scale, and so when youoptimize for scale, you don't
optimize for performance.
They're trying to get it intoas many podcast feeds as
possible, as efficiently aspossible, and the benefit that
we have as smaller podcasters,independent podcasters, without
large teams and without largebudgets, is that you can totally
(13:58):
do this yourself just byreaching out to podcasts that
you really do like, that you dothink your audience would enjoy,
and then doing it in a waythat's not scalable.
We've talked about marketingtactics.
Some of the best marketingtactics that are available to
independent podcasters are notscalable at all, and that's
great news because we can dothings that the big people can't
.
We don't have to do thisthousands of times.
(14:18):
You just have to do it your onetime for your one show.
And so, if you want to test theidea of a feed drop, find a
podcast that you'd like that youthink your audience would also
like, reach out to them, see ifyou can set up an agreement and
I scratch your back, you scratchmine or offer a little bit of
money and see if they'reinterested in introing one of
your episodes, and then I reallylike the way that Alvin is
(14:39):
positioning it also, like talkabout the show a little bit,
then go into the show and thenmaybe sum it up at the end,
maybe come back in at the endand tell them how they can
subscribe to that in the podcastapp of their choice.
I think that is really valuableand it doesn't have all the
creepy tracking tech.
And it doesn't have all thecreepy tracking tech.
But you don't really need that.
If it's just like a swap, likeI'll do it for your show, you do
it for mine.
We have similar numbers orwhatever.
Jordan (15:00):
So I've actually done this.
I've done feed drops, both in acommunity based hey I want to
promote your show to my audiencejust because.
And then I've also done it inexchange for money.
So it's actually not thattechnical when you're doing a
feed drop.
So I've had big networks cometo me and say hey, we have a new
(15:22):
storytelling podcast that wewant to drop into your feed, and
they'll usually offer about $45to $55 CPM that's pretty
average and then they just wantto know the average amount of
downloads.
And then after like 30 days,you just send them a screenshot
of your buzzsprout stats forthat episode and that's it.
(15:43):
It's really not that technical.
It does work a lot better if yourecorded an intro at the
beginning like, hey, I thoughtyou'd enjoy this.
And then, yeah, I did thatexact thing, kevin, where I was
wanting to take a break on mypodcast, and so I reached out on
Instagram to some bedtime storypodcasts that I really liked.
There was one that I talked tothat did Slavic fairy tales, and
(16:06):
I reached out to her.
She was a newer podcaster and Itook one of her episodes.
She was totally down for it.
I explained what a feed drop was, why it would benefit her, how
it would help me take a breakbut also endorse something to my
audience, and it was coolbecause then she was able to
share that feed drop to heraudiences as well.
And yeah, I just recorded anintro, a quick intro, saying
(16:29):
like hey, while I'm on break, Iwant you to check out this
podcast.
I think it'd be really greatand she did get a nice big bump
in downloads from it, so it wasvery beneficial to her.
So it's really easy to do andI've never had someone tell me
no, I don't want to do that, Idon't want to do a feed drop.
So it's definitely somethingyou can reach out to somebody
and say like hey, do you want toswap this Because it is
(16:49):
valuable.
Alban (16:50):
So, jordan, if you were trying, that makes a lot of
sense for when you're trying totake a break or when you want to
endorse.
As soon as I see the money, Istart thinking okay, probably
the reason people are doing thisis mostly to supplement the ad
revenue for the podcast, andthat $50 CPM or you said 45 to
55 sounds really good, becauseI'm thinking, I compare the
(17:14):
number 50 to the number 20 andit is a lot higher.
Yes, but whenever I hear $20CPM, I have to remember most
podcasts don't have a single ad,they probably have five, and so
that episode, while the ads maybe $20 ads, the episode is
being monetized at like $100 CPMIf they've got five ads, 20
(17:37):
times five.
So it's actually quite a bitlower than monetizing one of
your episodes with ads.
Did you ever think through thator what were your thinkings
when you've done those?
Jordan (17:49):
I mean honestly, my thinking was, if someone comes
to me and they say, hey, we wantto put one of our episodes into
your feed for 30 days and we'llpay you $850 for it, I'm going
okay, sure, like I don't have tolike craft a whole episode.
All I have to do is introduceit and say like, hey, I think
you didn't really enjoy this andof course it's going to be a
(18:09):
podcast that I would actuallyendorse.
I would never put somethingthat is going to like alienate
my audience into my feed, but Iwould just record like a 15
second intro, which takes fiveminutes out of my day, and then
drop it, and then you get like800 bucks for it.
To me it's so little work andso little effort for that money.
(18:30):
And then on top of that, I canhave an episode come out that
also has a couple sponsorshipsyou know, maybe it's a sponsored
episode and so that week Idoubled my money, right?
Alban (18:40):
That's true.
That's a good point.
Jordan (18:41):
Especially with this pod role version of it, where you
literally don't have to doanything.
You just let them put stuff inyour feet.
Kevin (18:46):
Yeah, I got to be honest, though, unless you're looking
to do it at scale, I don't.
I don't feel like the pod rolesolution makes a lot of sense
for smaller independentpodcasters.
Like it's not that hard to setthese deals up yourself and you
get the benefit of being moreselective.
You get to go out and find thepodcast that you think you want
to make this offer.
You know this agreement withand with pod role.
(19:08):
You probably do have some levelof control, but it's not going
to be fine grain control.
You're not going to actuallyget to go scout the exact
podcast that you think you wantto make this offer to.
Alban (19:18):
Yeah, but you got to remember, kevin, the independent
podcast episode is notaffiliated, endorsed or produced
in conjunction with the hostpodcast feed or any of its media
entities.
Oh perfect, clear is day, dude.
All right, welcome back to Buzzcast.
We're trying somethingdifferent for today's quick cast
.
I will be your host,Alban Brooke, and with me are
Jordan and Kevin.
Kevin's a little under theweather, so pardon the voice.
Kevin (00:13):
What do you mean by host?
You mean like, you mean likediscussion leader?
I'm the group leader today.
Alban (00:19):
Okay.
Jordan (00:19):
I'm the captain now.
Alban (00:21):
I'm the podcast host now.
Kevin (00:25):
All right, host, where are we going?
Alban (00:26):
All right, so I went on to X and I guess I looked at my
messages for the first time inlike two months
Jordan (00:33):
Yeah.
Alban (00:33):
I had a message from Family History Drama podcast and
they were like you know, thismight be something for you to
look into, cause I noticedsomething weird when I'm
listening to a podcast.
It was Tom Bilyeu's ImpactTheory.
Sorry if I mispronounce thatpodcast name.
He's like okay, so he sent mesome screenshots and they're in
the outline and here's what'shappening.
(00:56):
He got two notifications forthis podcast, like back to back,
and one's for a normal episode.
But there was another and itlooks like an episode.
It's from the same podcast andit says you might also like on
purpose with Jay Shetty, labeledas this bonus episode.
So when they went back andlooked like there's other times
(01:18):
this is happening, these same,you might also like episodes,
and so they wrote these same youmight also like episodes, and
so they wrote.
I'm surprised when a suggestedepisode release from a podcast I
listened to is actually just apromotion of somebody else's
podcast.
Is there money changing handsin these deals?
Is this like a?
You scratch my back, I'llscratch yours.
(01:38):
Feed drop.
What's going on?
Kevin (01:41):
Can I just say I hate that figure of speech, the
scratching back thing.
It just makes me.
Alban (01:46):
Also, it doesn't make sense Like I'll scratch your
back if you scratch mine.
Kevin (01:50):
Yeah, that's never happened in real life.
It's very weird that thatbecame a popular figure of
speech.
Jordan (01:55):
Yes.
Kevin (01:56):
Was there a time in society when that was the normal
thing?
You were like hey can youscratch my back?
Alban (02:00):
No way, man, not unless you're walking in.
You're gonna scratch mine.
And it's not like the two ofthem at the same time.
Both had a need for a backscratch.
Back scratch is like once in awhile you're like, oh, it really
itches in the one spot.
I can't get to.
Jordan (02:14):
So yeah, point, I think my daughter kind of does this.
She'll sit on the couch with meand we do like the side hug
thing and then you just likescratch each other's back yeah,
and that's a very sweet motherdaughter thing, but it's not.
Kevin (02:23):
It's not a contractual agreement that you're making
with somebody.
Jordan (02:26):
Like you and Alban probably wouldn't be caught
doing that.
Alban (02:29):
But it's like the business guys are the ones who
are saying it.
They're like, okay, thispartnership is, I'll scratch
your back if you scratch mine,right.
And it's like no, no, no, thisis a.
I give you money and you giveme, like, all right, is this
just a gift back and forth?
Is it a promo swap?
Is it something else?
That's what I startedinvestigating and I did some,
(02:52):
especially since they seem to beconsistent.
They always say you might alsolike, and then the name of the
podcast, and then they drop injust this full episode.
Kevin (03:03):
So is it the name of the podcast you might also like, and
then a podcast name, right?
And then you don't even reallysee the episode title until you
click on it, or something.
Alban (03:11):
Yeah, so like this one that was dropped in that we have
a screenshot of it says You MayAlso Like: On Purpose with Jay
Shetty.
On Purpose is the name of thepodcast and then in the
description it's likeintroducing Lizzo exclusive and
she has a.
I guess it's a episodeinvolving Lizzo, but the name of
that episode is not in thetitle.
Jordan (03:33):
Yeah, I noticed on one of the feeds of a podcast that I
was listening to this morningthere was a bonus episode that
dropped in their feed and itsaid you might also like the
Oprah podcast.
Alban (03:43):
You might.
Jordan (03:44):
Yeah, I might, but I keep marking this episode as
played because I don't want itto keep surfacing.
And it keeps re-upping, which Ithought was strange for a feed
drop.
I've never seen that happen ina feed drop before.
Kevin (03:54):
Did either of you tap on these to listen to them?
Jordan (03:56):
Well, it was in a true crime podcast feed and I was
like that's kind of a weirdchoice and so I didn't listen to
it.
I guess.
Kevin (04:01):
I'm wondering if they are just straight up feed drops,
like it's just the regularepisode, or if the host of the
podcast you're listening to isintroing it and saying why they
think you might like it.
Alban (04:12):
Yeah, they're just the episode.
Okay, the host is not sayinglike, hey, my great friend Jay
Shetty, and he does this otherpodcast called on purpose and we
often collaborate and he's beenon the show.
You know him, he does a podcastand I thought today I'd love to
drop it in.
No, it's just a.
You're in a new episode.
A little bit disoriented.
Jordan (04:31):
Yeah, and it's.
It has their full episodedescription with all their links
to support the show andeverything in it.
So it's yeah.
So if I click the Oprah podcastand I hit play, it goes
immediately into Oprah'sintroduction of the guest that's
on her episode.
So there's no priming for it,nothing, it's just there.
Kevin (04:52):
And one more question Are they dropping at the same time?
So when the hosting podcast isdropping a real episode, they're
also dropping this bonus rightnext to it?
Alban (04:59):
Yeah, these are good questions, Kevin.
These are all questions that Ithink are kind of hinting at
what's happening and some of thelogic behind it.
But yes, they drop them back toback and they sandwich the
bonus.
You might also like episodebetween two real episodes.
So Buzzcast 100 comes out,Buzzcast 101 is about to go,
(05:24):
Jordan hits publish, and thenyou might also like pod news.
Weekly review drops in andright after that, bus cast one
oh one comes in right behind it,which, from my thought, I'm
like that's actually a slightlybetter experience, because for a
lot of us, if you see a newepisode from a show you're
excited about drop and then youclick on it, no matter how much
(05:46):
you like Oprah or Jay Shettywhen you hear them talking, not
the podcast that you like,you're like what?
No, I don't want to be,recommended something new.
I already know what I like andyou told me you had it, and now
it's a bait and switch, so thesandwiching is better.
Jordan (06:02):
It is better yeah.
Alban (06:03):
But if you search this, this is the naming convention
that they use at PodRoll,podroll being PodRoll capital R,
the company that does dynamicfeed drops, not the podcasting
2.0 feature.
So what they do is PodRoll.
You upload an episode to themand then they will pay
(06:27):
podcasters to drop that episodeinto their feed.
They do some sort of redirectwhere they are measuring whether
or not people actually go andlisten to that episode and
whether or not, I think, thatthey actually migrate over to
your show, since you did thefeed drop to kind of do some
measurement.
But they're always bonusepisodes.
(06:47):
They always start with youmight also like colon and
they've got links and they dothe episode art and all that
stuff and then they drop adisclaimer into the episode
description.
Jordan (07:00):
Yeah.
Alban (07:01):
This is like what they do .
This is the.
You know, this is a companythat's doing this kind of at
scale, and I'm seeing it moreand more.
Jordan (07:08):
Yeah, here's where I'm seeing a flaw in their scaling
of this.
I was reading the disclaimerand'm seeing a flaw in their
scaling of this.
I was reading the disclaimerand I really, I really don't
like this.
It says disclaimer.
Please note this is anindependent podcast episode, not
affiliated with, endorsed by orproduced in conjunction with
the host podcast feed or any ofits media entities.
And I'm just like okay, ifyou're gonna be dropping a
podcast episode into your feedperhaps you should be endorsing
(07:31):
it.
Right Like this is just weird.
Kevin (07:33):
I'm pretty sure you are endorsing it.
Jordan (07:35):
Yeah, if I'm, if I'm being fed an episode from a
completely different podcast, Iwould hope that is one that that
podcast I am subscribed to isendorsing, like this.
It just seems so weird to me.
I don't really like that partof it.
Kevin (07:49):
Yeah, disclaimer or not, they are endorsing it first.
Just like any TV show that runsan ad, you know they're going
to get flack if the ad isoffensive, right?
I mean, like you're takingsponsorship money from this
company.
This company is terrible.
They test their products onanimals or something and they're
going to come after them.
Jordan (08:05):
This happened with Spotify.
Remember when there was a bunchof those like featured promos
popping up on people's podcastsand they were so upset because
Spotify was just putting thesepromos in that it was products
that they would like neverendorse, Like I think it was
like children's podcasts gettinglike whiskey or something like
that.
Alban (08:22):
Oh yeah, there was once where wild Turkey it was just.
It was like an accident, but abunch of wild Turkey ads were
dropped in to shows and some ofthem were kids shows, but some
of them were also uh, one ofthem at least was like a going
sober podcast.
Jordan (08:37):
That's right, everybody's like good grief.
Yeah, but that's the thing islike you don't have that level
of like control and so you'resaying like, yeah, we don't
endorse this, but we're going toput it in our feed, in front of
our audience, like that thisdoes happen actually for all
advertisements that the creatorsare like we want to remain
whole and clean and separate and, oh, we have nothing to do with
(08:59):
those ads.
Alban (09:00):
Like, oh, don't associate us with the ads we're running,
but they definitely want themoney and I'm like you get to
have it one of the two ways.
Either you vet the ads and sayno, and then it's like your
endorsement is there and yourintegrity is there, or you take
the money and you take the hittoo when there's something in
(09:22):
there that's not appropriate andpeople don't like.
You can't take the ad money andthen be like hey, by the way,
we didn't actually endorse that,even though it looks like it.
All we did was take the money,yeah, anyway.
So when I dug into this, themain difference is pod role.
What they're doing is you'llupload an episode and, rather
than you going around and tryingto find somebody to do a feed,
(09:42):
drop and record those intros.
They work with lots of largepodcasts and they will get you
into those podcast feeds andhopefully convert some of those
listeners over to your show.
One of the things I mean atleast what they had in a press
release I found was they claimedto sell the promo episodes for
$50 or more CPM.
(10:02):
So the podcaster is paid if theepisode is downloaded and then
I'm not exactly sure what thecost $50 or more is what you're
paying If you want your showfeatured in other podcasts.
Kevin (10:16):
Yeah, and then you mentioned briefly, like that
they're doing some additionaltracking.
So maybe this is an assumption,but I'm assuming they're
probably doing a URL prefix onboth podcast feeds so that they
can match IPs between whodownloaded the source feed and
then who downloaded somethingfrom the target feed and if we
get an IP match we can assumethat's the same person.
Alban (10:37):
Right, that's the way I would imagine you'd want to run
it.
So I did look at on purposewith Jay Shetty.
They do use the pod rolemeasurement according to pod
news.
So the pod news will anyredirects that they see will
list on that page so I could seethey're using pod role.
That's how I confirmed.
Yeah, that's what this is.
It would be interesting to findwhere these episodes are
(11:01):
showing up right now and whetheror not they have that tracking.
I have noticed, because it tookme a month to get onto X, the
screenshots that I got fromfamily History Drama Podcast.
They're different than what'sin the feed now and so, because
these are CPM based and they'renot forever, they drop it in.
You get your millionimpressions or whatever, and
(11:23):
then they pull it back out.
Jordan (11:24):
Yeah, and I think it's kind of cool that they did
integrate feed drops with howdynamic advertising works.
It's a very interesting take onit, but I don't know me
personally.
I feel the same way about thisas I do about, you know, the
programmatic advertising whereit's just like dropped in and
stuff, whereas I much preferwhen hosts actually endorse what
(11:48):
is going into their content andyou know that they have a
personalized endorsement for it.
They they are saying why theythink it would be a good fit for
their audience.
Alban (11:58):
I just much prefer that, even with feed drops I, I think
feed drops even more, at leastwith an ad.
You roll into the ad theremight be some music.
You say, okay, we're gonna takea quick break.
You have the ads, they.
They feel very different.
Jordan (12:11):
Yeah.
Alban (12:17):
With a feed drop, it can feel like a bit of a bait and
switch.
There's two episodes, so itonly turns out there's only one.
Oh, there's this other thing.
You already feel At least Ioften anytime this happens to me
I feel let down that there'snot a new episode, the show's
not coming back, it's just theywant the promo.
But then if you do click it andthe host that you already have
a relationship with is there tomake the you know, quote unquote
(12:37):
intro, like they're introducingyou.
Oh, here's why I think you wouldlike it, here's why I went out
of my way to give you this showand recommend it.
If that's in there at least,like there's kind of the full
circle is there.
You feel like, oh, I built arelationship with one podcast.
They recommended another.
Okay, I'm willing to take thison.
(12:58):
So I'd like to see if PodRollcould do this.
Do it as more of a matchingservice.
Say, hey, we'd love to matchyou to podcasters.
So now record an intro for thisepisode if you think it's a fit
, and my guess is that's got toat least be twice as valuable as
a listener to hear, oh, there'sactually somebody who I trust
(13:21):
recommending this show, I'm somuch more excited versus I'd
frankly just be frustrated tosee.
Oh, I got a random episode inhere.
I thought it was my favoritepodcast.
No, it's not my favoritepodcast, it's a totally
different podcast I never wouldhave listened to.
Kevin (13:37):
You mentioned this earlier.
The thing that they're reallydoing different is they're doing
it at scale, and so when youoptimize for scale, you don't
optimize for performance.
They're trying to get it intoas many podcast feeds as
possible, as efficiently aspossible, and the benefit that
we have as smaller podcasters,independent podcasters, without
large teams and without largebudgets, is that you can totally
(13:58):
do this yourself just byreaching out to podcasts that
you really do like, that you dothink your audience would enjoy,
and then doing it in a waythat's not scalable.
We've talked about marketingtactics.
Some of the best marketingtactics that are available to
independent podcasters are notscalable at all, and that's
great news because we can dothings that the big people can't
.
We don't have to do thisthousands of times.
(14:18):
You just have to do it your onetime for your one show.
And so, if you want to test theidea of a feed drop, find a
podcast that you'd like that youthink your audience would also
like, reach out to them, see ifyou can set up an agreement and
I scratch your back, you scratchmine or offer a little bit of
money and see if they'reinterested in introing one of
your episodes, and then I reallylike the way that Alvin is
(14:39):
positioning it also, like talkabout the show a little bit,
then go into the show and thenmaybe sum it up at the end,
maybe come back in at the endand tell them how they can
subscribe to that in the podcastapp of their choice.
I think that is really valuableand it doesn't have all the
creepy tracking tech.
And it doesn't have all thecreepy tracking tech.
But you don't really need that.
If it's just like a swap, likeI'll do it for your show, you do
it for mine.
We have similar numbers orwhatever.
Jordan (15:00):
So I've actually done this.
I've done feed drops, both in acommunity based hey I want to
promote your show to my audiencejust because.
And then I've also done it inexchange for money.
So it's actually not thattechnical when you're doing a
feed drop.
So I've had big networks cometo me and say hey, we have a new
(15:22):
storytelling podcast that wewant to drop into your feed, and
they'll usually offer about $45to $55 CPM that's pretty
average and then they just wantto know the average amount of
downloads.
And then after like 30 days,you just send them a screenshot
of your buzzsprout stats forthat episode and that's it.
(15:43):
It's really not that technical.
It does work a lot better if yourecorded an intro at the
beginning like, hey, I thoughtyou'd enjoy this.
And then, yeah, I did thatexact thing, kevin, where I was
wanting to take a break on mypodcast, and so I reached out on
Instagram to some bedtime storypodcasts that I really liked.
There was one that I talked tothat did Slavic fairy tales, and
(16:06):
I reached out to her.
She was a newer podcaster and Itook one of her episodes.
She was totally down for it.
I explained what a feed drop was, why it would benefit her, how
it would help me take a breakbut also endorse something to my
audience, and it was coolbecause then she was able to
share that feed drop to heraudiences as well.
And yeah, I just recorded anintro, a quick intro, saying
(16:29):
like hey, while I'm on break, Iwant you to check out this
podcast.
I think it'd be really greatand she did get a nice big bump
in downloads from it, so it wasvery beneficial to her.
So it's really easy to do andI've never had someone tell me
no, I don't want to do that, Idon't want to do a feed drop.
So it's definitely somethingyou can reach out to somebody
and say like hey, do you want toswap this Because it is
(16:49):
valuable.
Alban (16:50):
So, jordan, if you were trying, that makes a lot of
sense for when you're trying totake a break or when you want to
endorse.
As soon as I see the money, Istart thinking okay, probably
the reason people are doing thisis mostly to supplement the ad
revenue for the podcast, andthat $50 CPM or you said 45 to
55 sounds really good, becauseI'm thinking, I compare the
(17:14):
number 50 to the number 20 andit is a lot higher.
Yes, but whenever I hear $20CPM, I have to remember most
podcasts don't have a single ad,they probably have five, and so
that episode, while the ads maybe $20 ads, the episode is
being monetized at like $100 CPMIf they've got five ads, 20
(17:37):
times five.
So it's actually quite a bitlower than monetizing one of
your episodes with ads.
Did you ever think through thator what were your thinkings
when you've done those?
Jordan (17:49):
I mean honestly, my thinking was, if someone comes
to me and they say, hey, we wantto put one of our episodes into
your feed for 30 days and we'llpay you $850 for it, I'm going
okay, sure, like I don't have tolike craft a whole episode.
All I have to do is introduceit and say like, hey, I think
you didn't really enjoy this andof course it's going to be a
(18:09):
podcast that I would actuallyendorse.
I would never put somethingthat is going to like alienate
my audience into my feed, but Iwould just record like a 15
second intro, which takes fiveminutes out of my day, and then
drop it, and then you get like800 bucks for it.
To me it's so little work andso little effort for that money.
(18:30):
And then on top of that, I canhave an episode come out that
also has a couple sponsorshipsyou know, maybe it's a sponsored
episode and so that week Idoubled my money, right?
Alban (18:40):
That's true.
That's a good point.
Jordan (18:41):
Especially with this pod role version of it, where you
literally don't have to doanything.
You just let them put stuff inyour feet.
Kevin (18:46):
Yeah, I got to be honest, though, unless you're looking
to do it at scale, I don't.
I don't feel like the pod rolesolution makes a lot of sense
for smaller independentpodcasters.
Like it's not that hard to setthese deals up yourself and you
get the benefit of being moreselective.
You get to go out and find thepodcast that you think you want
to make this offer.
You know this agreement withand with pod role.
(19:08):
You probably do have some levelof control, but it's not going
to be fine grain control.
You're not going to actuallyget to go scout the exact
podcast that you think you wantto make this offer to.
Alban (19:18):
Yeah, but you got to remember, kevin, the independent
podcast episode is notaffiliated, endorsed or produced
in conjunction with the hostpodcast feed or any of its media
entities.
Oh perfect, clear is day, dude.
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