Blurred Lines - The Land Between Swinging & Polyamory - Casual Swinger - A Sex Positive, Swinging Lifestyle Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Mickey Gordon (00:57):
Hey everybody.
Welcome back to anotherepisode of casual swinger.
My name is Mickey

Mallory Gordon (01:02):
and I'm Mallory

and you guys might notice something a
little bit different this time.
We're doing things that wereshaking it up, shaking shit up.
Yeah.
I didn't get to say I'm Scott.
Don't worry.
You'll get your turn.
You know, if this was not a videopodcast this time, you would be.
Invisible right now.
No one would know you were here.

This is totally different.
New territory for us.

Oh, extremely new territory for us.
So very different.
If you guys have noticed, thisis our first video podcast
we've ever done for you guys.
Inspired by our friends that arejoining us here for this episode,
the beautiful Scott and April.
Well, beautiful April and Scott.

Naughty Gym April (01:37):
Thanks.
Thank

you.
From naughty Gym.

Thank you.

Thanks for joining us guys here in Nashville, Tennessee, by the way.
Dynamite.
Call me up, baby.
Yeah, that was insightful.
Definitely.
You know, more of that.
I

am really excited to be here.

This is a good time.
So we're going to talk to you today.
This episode is a little different.
We're not going to break itup with our typical segments
that you guys are used to.
So we're not going to do an intro andthen get into the meat and we're not
going to do whiskey the month this time,because it's the first of the month.
So this is just going to be.
a little different.
So hopefully you guys will enjoy it.
We're talking about blurred lines today.
Ooh, what does that mean?
Well, blurred lines.
So in the lifestyle, characteristically,when people think about the lifestyle,

(02:17):
hear about the lifestyle, whether yougo back to the days of studio 54 and
Plato's retreat and places like that,that, you know, had this connotation
of key parties and meaningless sex.
I think that a lot of people stillhave that idea of the lifestyle.
I'm sure it's still

incorporated into the lifestyle as well for some people's
strategies and preferred play styles.
Yeah.
Bedpost

notchers, belt notchers, people like that.
I mean, I mean, that also has anegative connotation to it, right?
So when we were talking about thelifestyle and having a negative
connotation, there are those of us,and I would count, I think the four
of us among them that need a littlesomething more to really be connected
and enjoy the lifestyle and have,and some might call that emotional.
Some might call that personal.

(02:59):
Some might call that.
So we're going to talk about that today.
But before we get to all of that,we're going to talk a little bit about
our Hito trips because we have a Hitotrip that's coming up pretty soon.
You guys have a Hito trip thatjust finished up in January and
another one coming next January.
So we're going to talk about thatbecause we had such a fucking
good time on your trip that wewant to talk about the little bit.

It was amazing.

Well, and we'll be on your trip in a
little under a month, 30 days,

exactly 30 days out.
I'm so glad you said that we are.
I'm thrilled to have you guysthere and help host this group.
It's going to be a great time.
It's going to be a little differentthan what we experienced in January, but
it's one of those like different, butwonderful at the, you know what I mean?

Well, we're looking forward to seeing you guys have
so much experience at that resort.
So we're just looking forwardto seeing you in your element.
Cause I know you guys have beendoing this for a while and we've
heard that your parties are epic.

Naughty Gym Scott (03:52):
Well, and I hope this comes off as humbly as I mean it.
If I were you guys, I would beexcited about having us there as well.

Nailed it.
Yeah, absolutely.
This is Scott, everyone.

That's exactly, you know, we were like, Oh my
God, our trip is finally complete.
Scott neighbor.
We're going to be mostlyScott, but yeah, April's true.
Icing on the cake.
I do have, how is it youavoided to burn your head?
Avoided burning yourhead for 11 days at Hito.

I, you know, I didn't get hardly any sun.
And I don't know how.

It's because I bought SPF 75 and didn't tell him.
Okay.
I was hoping you would say like he had

thighs over his head the whole time

or something.
And we were there 14 daysand I barely got sun.

That's right because you got delayed getting home.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was ice

storms.
Oh yeah.
Poor bastard.
You had to stay at Hedofor another three days.

It was tough.
But you know, look, we do this forthe community and we make sacrifices.
Oh yeah.

Deep sacrifice.
Deep, deep, hard sacrifice.

Hard.
Sacrifice dirty.

So tell us a little bit about your trip.
What is it called?
When is it?
How many rooms do you have?
Is it a takeover?
What kind of things do you do?
I know we've talked about it abit, but I don't think anybody
tells your story as well as you do.
So one of you should your pick.
Whoever talks more.

I'll start.
So be better at being bad 2025,the second coming something like
that
was actually Scott's idea.

Well, accidentally.
Anyway, go ahead.

But it's essentially a sexual health and
wellness retreat at hedonism resort.
So it's January 4th through the 11th 2025.
And tell a little bit aboutthe things that, well, yeah,

I mean, so last year or this Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
A month ago was ourfirst time ever doing it.
And it's still, we try to have allthe parties and things that Hito
is famous for, but we wanted toincorporate some educational stuff.
We wanted it to be something thatwhen you left, you weren't just
tired from partying all week.
You also had tools for your toolkitto make the rest of your lifestyle

(05:53):
journey a little bit better.
So we had great presenters from all overthe world come in to talk about things.
Maybe generic is jealousy and handlingemotions in these situations, but
also things like butt play andhow to give a better blow job.
So it was a mixture of a littlemore vanilla stuff and some more
X rated kind of things as well.

And next year, or well, I guess this coming up
year a lot of the presenters arecoming back for a year or two.
Yeah.
There's a few that won't be ableto make it, but the majority
of them will be coming back.
And then we've got some new specialthings that we're going to add this year.
You know, you always learn fromthe first year what to and not
to do and what kind of lean inand what to like pull away from.
And so, we've got some reallygreat ideas how to make this

(06:37):
year even better than last year.
Bye.
Bye.

Right.
So how many sexual favors doI have to offer you personally
to get us invited back?

So, you're already paid up.

Later tonight.

Yeah.
So we are excited thatyou guys are joining us.
You guys, we got rave reviews fromyou guys, from all of the attendees
because you DJed, you emceed, youwere like gold star VIP hosts.
It's a great time.
You guys came to the event, youslept, you were giving tours.
And like, you guys were everywhere.
I don't think you slept the entire week.

(07:10):
You were probably more tired than we were.
We do tend to duplicate like gremlins.
But it was amazing you guys.
And so we're proud that youguys are going to join us again.
We are really excited to be at your event.
And

we knew we needed help.
We're, we haven't been toTohito that many times.
So I think this was our fourth trip.
And we knew that was a hole you guyscould fill, pardon the pun but what we
didn't expect, or at least not to thelevel that we got, it was the incredible
interplay and interactions that youguys are capable of with the guests.
I mean, all week long, we kepthearing people come up to us and say,

(07:43):
Hey, look, they've been phenomenal.
They've taken care of us.
They've been fun.
They, all of these rave reviews.
We knew you guys were good people,but we didn't know each other,
all of us that well at that point.
And so we knew you knew yourshit, but we also, but we didn't
know how you were going to be on.
And look, I mean, we were blownaway by the care and professionalism

(08:05):
that you showed to the guests there.
And you didn't have to do that.
That was something that you just didout of the kindness of your heart.
And we appreciate it.

What's amazing really is in this, the lifestyle
community or the sex positive community.
Meeting other influencers orthat are also growth minded.
Like you have a messagefor your listeners.
We have a message for our listeners, buta lot of those listeners are the same.
Yeah, they are.
And so if we can educate these people,I mean, it just unifies the community

(08:35):
as a whole and causes it to grow.
Sure.
And so we have the same end goal.
So working together just felt easy.
It really

was.
I don't want to say the word synergy.
Cause I think that is thelike, number one, anti life.
That will literally get youhurled out of a boardroom.
But I think we justcompliment each other so well.
And, but we also have a lot ofthe same goals, like you said.
And I think putting the people first,you know, scaling that you guys
have done events before, you know?
So it's not like it was your first timewalking into an event of a large scale

(09:05):
because you've been doing it in yourvanilla life as well as in the lifestyle.
And you know how hard that iswhen you don't have someone.
In your corner to help youtouch and execute on certain
things that you have planned.
I'm glad we could bethere for you to help.

I was actually blown away.
And I say, actually, Iactually mean it this time.
And a lot of times when you say, actually,it's an insult and you don't like, you're
like, fuck fighting words in our house.
They are like, actually,honey, that was a good idea.
Never say that to your wife, folks.
Trust me.
But when I say that, and Ithink I said this on our last
episode, where we talked about it.
I did not give you guys enough creditand I apologize for that, but I'm going

(09:42):
to own it and say that, you know, Idid, I figured, and this is kind of
goes back to what I was thinking whenyou were talking just now about our
crossover of our listeners and our ethos.
So our show has been describedfairly aptly by some of our
listeners is infotainment.
We do share information.
But we, our intent is to be entertaining.
It should be fun.

(10:02):
It should be engaging.
If it's not, then I don'tknow why the fuck you're still
listening, but here we are.
But at the same time,we're not here to preach.
We're not here to teach you how to swing.
We're not here to teachyou how to be a swinger.
That is not what we do.
We are here.
However, and if one person says to us.
Hey, Mallory.
Hey, Mickey.

(10:23):
You know, I didn't know aboutthat and now I have questions.
That's a good thing becausea lot of times in life you
don't know what you don't know.
And when you start to find out how muchyou don't know about a subject, all of
the sudden it becomes interesting orI have questions now because now I'm
aware of it or I understand it better.
And I think that's something thatwe strive to do on casual swinger.

(10:44):
And it's something I've seenpeople doing as part of naughty gym
and be better at being bad week.
What do you think about that?

Yeah.
No, I agree completely.
Yeah.

It's definitely, I think that's kind of our goal.
Now for you guys, you know, that's,you definitely opened my mind.
I saw a lot of things and a lotof conversations I never expected.

Yeah.
I mean, cause we were introducedto effectively a new genre, you
know, when you talked about sexualwellness and fitness, I mean,
we know you guys is not a gym.
So I'm like, well, what's that,that clientele look like and are
we going to be able to serve themto the degree we're accustomed to?
Yeah.
And it turned out like we met someof the most incredible people on

(11:21):
property, which actually singstrue if there's a commonality about
going to Hedo any time of the year.
You're going to meet some amazingfolks there, no, no matter when you
go, there's just something about theability to bond with them, but absolutely
blew me away at what was provided.
And it seemed in seven days is along time, but it's not so much
that was packed into seven days.

Oh yeah.
And I also want to thank you guys forthe trust you put in us again, you
didn't know each other all that well.
I mean, you know, you knew who wewere and you knew that we knew a lot
about the property and we've beenthere a billion times, but that you
didn't know what we were up to orhow, you know, how we do things.
And what I love about Scott inparticular, I'm going to blow
his head up a little bit is we.

(12:04):
You know, I worry when I'm there becauseI am a big personality and I wear my
big hats and I'm extremely visiblefor other leaders that we work for.
Sometimes it's hard to havea personality as big as mine.
So I try to mute it and I try todial it down and I try not to be
as big or as visible to let youhave the light because you own it.
It's your brand, your name.

(12:25):
And Scott looked at me, it was like.
just do what you do.
He's like, just go nuts.
Right.
And that took confidence interestthat a lot of people maybe don't have.
So I was really impressed by that.

Well, we told all of our presenters and host.
Well, when we were talking to presenters,when we were planning, we said, We don't
want to tell you what to speak about.
You're an expert in this field.
Do what lights your fire, what sparksjoy in you because people will see that.
And that was the same for you guys.
We didn't want you coming in feelinglike we had to temper you down.
And like, we wanted who you areat the core to shine through.

(13:01):
Cause that's what people.

Yeah.
That's going to be thebest version of you.
And if we don't like it, we justdon't invite you back next week.

I can promise you, I heard no less than three or four times
that week is he said, Scott said I could.

Cause she kept telling me, she's

Multiple (13:17):
like, Hey, too much.
It's not our group.
Not our trip.
Scott said I could.
Scott

said I could.
It's okay.
You can't shackle him.
You got to let, you got to let him fly.
He's a mustang man.
He's a peacock.
Let him fly.
Just let my mane flow in the wind.

And damn if we didn't.
That is a really good time.
But one of the things I think I lovethe most about Be Better Being Bad
Week is, and this is going to soundreally narcissistic and I don't mean
it to, but it reminded us of our week.
And on steroids in a couple ofways, but it did remind actual
kind, not actual steroids.

(13:53):
It's our week, not on Molly on steroids.
But it really did blow things upfor us and say, Hey, wait a minute,
this model that we've been toyingwith, which is to bring our podcast
style of infotainment to Hito.
You brought the edutainment to Hedo.

Yeah, very much so.
You really did make it a retreat.
And that always made me nervous because wetalked about the inherent nature of this
place, especially for repeat offenders.
So going against the grain, I knewthere'd be some challenges there,
but it was very interested to see.
And I was, it was very welcomingas a vet that has been going so
long to see something differenthappen on property and see it.
Embrace that was cool.

And there were challenges to that, obviously, but in
challenges for us and the team and thenchallenges from the resort too, because
for them it was something different andthere were hiccups along the way, nothing
major and probably nothing anybody.
attending noticed, but it wasgreat feedback for us to know
how to do it better next year.

(14:52):
And you know, the resort hedonism wasincredibly gracious and professional
in working with us, trying to changea little bit of what they do on a
day to day basis just for that week.
And that's not easy for them becausewhat they do works and to have somebody
come in, that's a newbie like us totry to change things shows a lot of.
Foresight on their part anda lot of willingness to risk.

(15:15):
You know, they have a model that worksand why toy with that, you know, but
they did and things turned out well.
I hope

I think they're amazing.
And I think you're going to find outso our plan, correct me if I'm wrong,
is to sell this fucker out next year.

Yeah, well it was it's been very encouraging cause
there's already been a lot of rooms soldfor next year and we didn't sell the
first room last year until like March.
And there's already a lotof rooms sold this year.
So yeah it's going to sell out this year.
And we're excited about that, butyou guys, you don't have rooms
left either that were sold out

to, we sold out the resort in April, if you can believe that,

we sold out the catamaran cruise, which
is something we're known for.
A week ago, which we usuallyhave a few spots left, but
it's time we get on property.
We're usually selling seats

on the cat on the beach.
And this

is a week that's typically not sold out ever.
Yeah.
So that's awesome.

Yeah.
They've never sold outthat week as far as I know.
So, and we sold the fucker out.
Well,

and we are excited about going to that one because
although we're going to be on yourteam and working with you, we're
going to, we're going to get torelax a little bit more on this one.

You'll see me go racing by.
You'll see just a gianttop hat and an ass.

I didn't have an opportunity.
One of my favorite roles that I get toplay when we're on property is muse.
And I just, I love sprinkling the littlehappy fuck dust and like sending people
off on their way to have the best time.
We need to get you a costume.
I do have a plethora of edible glitter.
I'm just going to goahead and drop that out.
Okay, that's right.

(16:49):
Okay, everybody

hands over your drinks around Mallory because she's got fuck
dust and she's putting it on everything

or leave it open.
Yeah, I'll take some of your fuck

everybody.
A little extra fun.
I am so excited about casual swinger.
We mostly because I have never in mylife, and I've been going to Hedo, more
than half of my life at this point, I'vebeen going to Hedo, and I'm old as fuck
apparently but, and look, I'm not thatold, look at me, see, you can see me now,
I'm not that fucking old, but I've beengoing since I was pretty young, and, I've

(17:26):
never seen a group chat, a pre group, thepre trip chat, take the brick off the way
that unbelievable how our chat group is.
These are the horniest people
I've ever met.

And I check it every day and coming in and I'm
like, Oh my gosh, 152 notifications.
And I have to, I got a privacy screenFYI for anyone that's going on this
trip that's listening because of youguys, because I'd open the chat and
there'd be some super sexy photos andI'm in the public's checkout line.

That's I too have that screen because I like porn.

That is a good sign though, that you're going to have a super
engaged community when you get to Hito.
That's exciting.
We

did an episode called a family is born because of these type of
people and a lot of them are repeaters.
Right?

Well, I think we're almost a little less than half the
newbies this trip that have never beento Hito or never been to Hito with us.
Oh, that's going to beso fun to watch them

experience Hedo for the first time.

There's a point of pride there for me as a long time Hedo vet.
You know, Hedo has the highestreturn customer rate of
any resort in the Caribbean
by
a lot.
I mean, it's not even close.
And I know why I always tell peoplethere's magic in the sand, the
relationships you create Hito or visceral,their relationships that last a lifetime.
You tell things, people that youmet at Hito after knowing them for

(18:48):
six months that the people thathave known you 15 years don't know.
There's just something specialabout the relationships that
are forged in that sand.
But he does really just a hotel.
The people make Hito what it is.
And I've never seen a groupof people become a family.
And one trip before casual swinger weekthe first time, and they've done it

(19:10):
now and we're not even in the sand yet.
So maybe the sand isn't the magic at all.
Maybe it's them.
And you provide them

a space to be authentic and connect.

Yeah.
There's that.
So, this is about that time where we wouldnormally dip out of here and come back
with the meat of the episode for you guys.
But since we're all here togetherand we're videoing it and just
kind of doing our thing, we'regoing to jump right into it.
Which means you're going to have to waitto hear Mallory tell you how to find us.
Yeah.

I have to practice that again because I'm
still out of practice.

But for anybody that's maybe fast forwarded or just tuning
in or do want to hear all the shitabout, you know, we are here with
Naughty Gym, Scott and April, andwe're going to talk about blurred
lines between swinging and polyamory.
And some people have called itthings like swally, which I kind
of think is a ridiculous name.

That'd be hard for me to remember.

Yeah but also I've always called it poly light, right?
And maybe we should have stolensomeone from expansive connections
to sit on this with us so theycould tell us how wrong we are.
But I really do, and by theway, they didn't do that.
I'm not taking a shot atexpansive connections.
I'm just saying they're smarter than I am.

We love
them.

Yeah, we love those people.

But I mean, obviously we're a lot smarter than they are.
So we don't need them.
It's clear by looking at us, right?

Multiple (20:28):
I mean, mostly for yourself, but like, sorry, Catherine.
Yeah, he can help.
Oh,

There's no doubt about it.
So, I'm going to shut the fuckup and let somebody else talk.
And why don't you guys, you know,kind of give us your perspective.
Obviously are these blurred lines is.
Or is it possible to have anemotional connection, a genuine
emotional connection in a lifestylerelationship and it still be?
Lifestyle.

First, can we start by defining what the difference
is between swinging and poly?

Well, I think that's part of the problem.
I actually tried to research someof this and they're, of course you
did and there's no accepted clinicaldefinition or defining line where a
thing becomes poly or moves from theswinging world to the poly world.
In fact, there's no, really noclinically accepted definition of poly.

(21:27):
What's polyamorous?
What where does a thingbecome polyamorous?
I do know for us though, well, I should.
I think I'm speaking for us.
Correct me if I getanything wrong from her.
She will your vantage point.
Yeah,

I got you, boo.

We started out as we were getting into the lifestyle or wanting
to explore consensual non monogamy.
We, we said, look, we don't evenwant to know the people's names.
We just want to go to a party,find the hottest people that are
willing to have sex with us, havesex, and then go about our business.
And because we were scared of, we don'twant to form emotional connection.

(22:01):
We have this great relationship.
We don't want to risk ruin in it.
The easiest or quickest routeto ruining a relationship is
forming some bond or connectionemotionally with another person.
We're definitely not going to do that.
And that is probably the most wrongwe've ever been about anything.

We never actually did that though.

What?
So you went to

an event, just picked up the hottest couple and fucked up.
We never did that.
You were reading my mind.
I'm like, but did you?
Yeah, never did.
Well,

here's my thing.
People, some people, and I think it's a.
I'm fine with somebody saying, Iwant, it's just about sex for me.
You know, I have my partner, I have mysafe place, my foundational relationship
for me swinging or the lifestyle isjust about having some fun sex, no
emotions involved, this is probablycontroversial, but I'm going to say that.
I don't believe that'sactually even possible.

(22:48):
Even if somebody genuinely means it, Idon't even know what it would look like
or mean to say I'm having unemotional sex.
There's no connection whatsoeverbecause what's the difference
there between having sex with thatperson unemotionally in a sex doll?
That's assisted masturbation.

Yeah.
Well, I mean, like if you think of theact of sex in and of itself, that's.
A quasi emotional experience.
Yeah, it's scary.
I feel a lot of things whenI'm having sex with my primary
partner, with my other partner.
Not always
to be fair.

(23:29):
But I have to agree with you.
I don't know that it's possibleto take complete emotion out of it
altogether and make it purely physical.
'cause how can you, how does thateven work with brain chemistry?

I mean, there's very little that's as emotional
as sex, even if you're trying, andI get the sentiment, I understand
you're trying to protect yourself.
You're trying to erectsome sort of barricade.
That's going to keep the boogiemonster out of your relationship.
Right.
But for me at this point, if thereisn't some emotional connection,

(24:03):
I'm not interested in the sex.
Even if I think the girl is justsuper hot now, I would still do it.
A blowjob feels good.
Even if I don't like the person,but it feels much better if I do.

Right.
And when you're talking about emotionsbeing involved, you're not talking about
like falling in love with them or Ilove this person who's sucking my cock.
It's just, I like this person.
I would be friends with them.
That's an emotional connection.

Yeah.
So where does that, where is the, what isthe defining characteristic of polyamory?
What, where do you, where have,where can you, and maybe it doesn't
matter, but where can you safelysay this relationship or this?
I'm more polyamorous withthem than I am a swinger.
We have a theory on that.
Do you want to cover the throne room?

Yeah.
So, I mean, I'll let you cover the,I was thinking about the emotional
equity, the emotional mental equity.
I think that's when we talked about that.
If we as a couple would define arelationship as polyamorous, that's
when you allow someone to have equal sayin decisions, life, sex, relationship
as your current primary partner.

(25:07):
So like emotional and mentalreciprocity and equality.

So the analogy that we have kind of always used when we talk
about our decision making process and how,because we've been in the lifestyle for
18 years, so we've had, don't do the math.
Yeah, don't do that.
. Naughty Gym Scott: But you started when you were 12 scholars in those clubs
and now we're banned from YouTube.

(25:32):
There it is.
Yeah.
YouTube just kicked us off.
I was the swinging a swinger at my middle school.
It lasted 15 minutes

before you got banned

Multiple (25:39):
place.
That guys relax.

Right?
But it's the throne room analogy for us.
If you think about a throne room,any, anything in the universe except
Game of Thrones, there was only onefucking throne in Game of Thrones.
But most throne rooms have a kingand a queen and a seat for both.
What they don't haveseats for is the court.
The court stance, whether they arethe ladies in waiting or whether
they're the princes and the princesses,everyone stands, but the king and the

(26:04):
queen, that is your emotional throneroom in your emotional throne room.
There are two seats.
And if there are two seats inyour emotional throne room,
then you are probably swinging.
But when you add another chair tothe throne room and they to sit at
the throne, meaning they have, likeMallory said, equal say, meaning
that their opinion, their desires,their emotions carry equal weight.

(26:29):
With you.
As your primary partner.
So, and that in, in a lot ofcases, you know, in swinging, we
don't have metamors, for example.
So in polyamory, wehave your meta for you.
So let's say that April, you, Scott andI were poly Scott and I would be metas
because, and we would all have equal say.

(26:49):
But in reality, you have a primary andthen a secondary, but he and I would
be, I'd be metamor to him, meaning I'mthe other guy but we all have equal set.

That sounds like a lot of work.

That's a shit ton of work.

I don't know.
Two men tell me what to do.
Is there one?
Is

there one?
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is not one.
That's why we have twoseats in our throne room.
Cause I'm in troubleenough with one woman.
So what you're defining

then you would call that

poly,

where.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Everybody involved has the equalsay in the relationship, correct?
So there's no primaries.

Well, you still have your primary, but you, this
other person has weight to them.
Right.
And so, but it's not necessarily,

yeah, not necessarily equal, right?
I think you've got

equal.
You're still poly.
If somebody else has a vote.

Right.
I mean, and I'm not, we're not.
I think some Polly people would say,well, yeah, I still have my primary and
they carry the weight of the decisionmaking us together, but I do have this
person who I love, who have a very strongconnection with, and we have commitments
to each other in some form or fashion,and they may have some say in my life, or

(27:59):
I may let them have some say, but maybenot to the level of my primary partner,
and I think they still call themselvesPolly in those situations, right?

Yeah, because we've.
Met people that are in a poly quadand they share bank accounts bill.
Oh, yeah There you go.
It's Polly's kind of stuff, but thenwe've got friends that have You know
the husband and the wife and then thehusband has a girlfriend The wife doesn't
and so he considers himself Polly, butthe wife considers herself monogamous

(28:26):
Okay,

so I'm actually gonna make a Point here that I
don't think we've touched on yet.
You are whatever you think you are.
Okay.
You are whatever you call yourself.
However you identify, just becauseI say it is this way for me.
That doesn't mean it's truth.
It's not gospel.
Just if we're your favorite podcastor your favorite podcast is,
you know, something multi emery,for example, is a polyamory.

(28:47):
Naughty Gym.
If you've read opening up or theethical slut, and now all of a sudden
you have a set of ethos that youthink makes you, I think, fuck it.
You are okay.
Be whatever you are.
And just because I say,this is how I define it.
That doesn't mean you're not.
So if you're listening to this,I'm not telling you, you are not.
We're discussing.
What these boundaries look like for us aswe look at swinging as relates to poly and

(29:10):
what boundaries or blurred lines exist.

I think we're going to get into the meat of it because we
got into a discussion last night aboutthe different relationship dynamics
we have in ethical non monogamy and wetalked about a couple that we're pretty
close with that kind of go outside thetraditional thoughts and relationship
expectations you might have in.
In the general swinging placethat a little more than that, but

(29:35):
maybe not quite the other either.

Definitely not.
And but I mean, that's a greatexample as a good person.
You care if you hurt other people,you care if you hurt their feelings,
you care if you leave them out,you care if maybe you stomp on.
Some emotions of theirs by accidentor you're a real asshole on purpose,
but I, that doesn't necessarilymake you Polly because you care.

(29:59):
And I can tell you in ourlifestyle relationships.
I have absolutely hurt the otherperson's feelings, the female of that
part, by being inconsiderate or notlistening or doing any of the dumb shit
that I do in my normal relationship.
So I know that I've causedpain and I feel bad about it.
That doesn't necessarily make it apoly relationship because I feel bad

(30:19):
because I hurt somebody's feelings.

Yeah.
So to kind of give a little background,the way we approach a swinging
relationship is I, anyone that's aDDF transactional or tries to take
the emotion, like good for you, butI'm probably not a good person for
you because I need to feel connected.
And the way we describe it is Iwant to give a shit about you, care
about you help tell me your kidsnames, what's going on in your life.

(30:42):
That's cool.
But I don't want youto be high maintenance.
I also don't want to be fullyresponsible for you because you do
have a significant other that's there.
Right.
That's their job.
Right.

And once it starts to become, once the work starts to outweigh
the benefit of the fun, it's like, yeah.
Or

there's heavy expectations put on you.
Like, I don't have the bandwidthfor those expectations.
Like, I'm not going to text you every day.
I'm not going to call you probablyever unless there's an emergency.
Ooh, dude.
Yeah.
I'm calling

somebody is like, Oh my, like I immediately go dark, like
dark, like someplace dark in my head.
And when it's just something silly, I'mlike, well, don't ever do that again.
Stop calling me.
Don't call me where we don'thave that kind of relation.
I have that relationship with nobody.
Yeah.
If Mallory calls me,

she's mad.
She calls me Scott's on fire.
It's really, but Scott calls

me, he forgot something.

Right.
I'm more, probably more likelyto call Scott though, than I am.
You April, because I'll be like,Hey buddy, here, I got something
to talk about for a second becausemy thumbs don't move fast enough.
My mouth moves a hundred times faster.
Scott

absolutely loves talking on the phone.
If we need to make a phonecall, I always defer it to him.
I'm like, you need tocall this person for me.

Oh, when we've done our zoom calls, Scott and I are a
half hour into the call before weever start talking about, we're
supposed to talk about tracks.
Yeah, it's entirely our fault.
So are these blurred lines that,so we kind of covered what we.
Think that is, so let's get specificabout Naughty Gem, how, what's you guys
play style and how closely does it,how closely does it come to the line

(32:17):
of Polly in an emotional investment?

So it's changed and that's what I love about this.
I think we're highlighting todayhow fluid it can be and how
it's different for everyone.
Like you can call it, I hate labelsand so call it whatever you want.
It's just what I am today.
But we started, I guess.
I wouldn't even say swingers becausewhen I think of swinger, I think of more
of that transactional type of sexual.

(32:40):
And we were just CNM,consensual non monogamous.
Like we would find some peoplethat we both connected with
and, you know, do our thing.
But as the years have gone bywe've found ourselves having deeper
relationships with our friends.
And I really didn't thinkit was possible to love.

(33:03):
But we do love our friendsmultiple friends, not just
some of which we play with.
So, but we're not like sharing billsor, you know, anything like that.
And so I think he mostly because

we can afford to help pay anybody else's love

for them.
If you want to share,

if you want to help us pay ours, We'll be Polly with you.
I don't care what you look like.
That mortgage is a bitch.

Multiple (33:33):
You can probably talk a little bit.
Yeah.

Well, yeah.
I mean, I kind of view this Polly questionis almost like a, I forget what the
Supreme court judge, when he was asked.
They were trying to define porn.
And they said, well, he said,well, I don't, I can't define
it, but I know it when I see it.
So some versions of poly, we all wouldgo, yeah, they're definitely polyamorous.
You know, they're sharing a house orbills or they, you know, they're all
in love and there's some, yeah, there'ssome things that are obviously part.

(33:57):
And then there's some things that aredefinitely just swinger ish type activity.
I mean, if you go to a sex cluband within 30 minutes there, you're
into a pile of bodies in a room.
And then.
You go home for that.
That's kind of swinger stuff, butthere's a, what seems like for
us, a big gray area in the middle.
We don't like either of those twoextremes or what we view as extremes.

(34:20):
And they're not, there's nothing wrongwith those, but that's just not our style.
We kind of, we're slower to play causewe really feel like we get to, we
need to get to know somebody for me.
I need to feel like I'm startingto form some sort of connection or.
Bond with the other person.
Now, if you, if I end up playing withsomebody, I have no desire to have, like

(34:42):
you were talking about expectations orresponsibilities, once we go home, you
know, I may see you again in two monthsand we may do this all over and it may
be this wonderful experience, but Ihave enough responsibilities in my life.
And I'm not very good at most of thoseto then take on a low, another load of
responsibilities is just not somethingI'm interested in, but, and it's

(35:03):
scary because we've talked about this.
I do chase that sort of, and you usethe word that sort of loving sort of.
And, you know, I use that word andit sounds scary and I don't mean
the kind of love that we have.
Nothing could replace that but Ido chase that feeling a little bit.

I love the feeling when you're, if we NRE or infatuation,
I, if I had to define it, that thingthat makes your stomach flutter
a little bit and you're like,okay, this could be really hot.
And like, I'm you acknowledgein that moment that you're
very attractive to this person.
But in a way it almost has verylittle to do with her looks.
It's the engagement you'rehaving and what you're feeling.

And NRE is new relationship energy.
Yeah, correct.
I had to Google that a few weeks ago.

Well, and that, so that was the question I was
going to have for you, Scott is.
Is it the serotonin bump from NREthat you're chasing, or is it the
deeper relationship or the deeperconnection that makes the physical
contact more impactful for you?

I think it's both.
And I could have said, I'm not sure, maybea year ago, but we do have some close
friends that we were very close to now.
They're play partners, but they'realso friends or people we go to
dinner with or hang out with.
And there was in any place situation,there's, if it's a good connection,

(36:21):
you're going to have that NRE,but that can start to slowly fade.
If you're around that person longenough, it happens in a marriage.
You know what you feltwith her is not the same.
Now it's deeper maybe, but not newer,you know, so that can start to fade.
But, if there's somethingelse beneath that NRE that'll
carry on for a lot longer.

(36:41):
And and so I do like both of thosebecause while I have had fun with sort
of some transactional play sessionsthat we've had, especially early on in
the lifestyle, I can do without them.
Now I just, you know, there was atfirst it was new and Oh, we're so cool.
We get to.
We get to do these sex thingswith other people because

you feel naughty.
Yeah.

But now we've done enough of that.

My name is Scott and I'm a cool guy.
Now I had the sex
And

those guys, but yeah, now we're just, we're
much slower to pull the trigger.
Now there has to be something under this,a little more, something under the surface
for us to, I think we've kind of always

been that way.
Right.

I think I went full steam ahead.
I played it slow.
I had a lot of questions.
I think it was six months fromthe inception of the idea to
the execution of the idea.
Maybe a little longer than that.
And I'll never forget thefirst time it was like of what
the, just swinging in general.
Okay.
But I mean, oh, your first head was epic.
It was crazy.
I would never do this today.

(37:46):
No chance.
We met two other couples ina club and played that night.
Yeah.
And it's so not who I am today, but Iremember leaving and going, wow, that was.
Awesome.
Like, this is going to be great.
He's like, no.
This is not how it works.
You never get that.
You never get a four way connection,let alone a six way connection.
And like, it just neverworks out that way.
And you were right.

(38:06):
You were absolutely right.
But I also think I was, itwas the newness of the idea.
And the sense of adventure that came alongwith it was something that encouraged
me to propel that situation forward.
I wouldn't do that today.
Well, I just, I need more than that.

When it's newer like that, it probably blinds you a bit to
things that now those same four otherpeople, you may not have that because now
you see things through a different lens.
I can guarantee you thatwould not happen today.

And it's like when you're a kid and you're learning to
ride a bike, you may not necessarily bescared of it right away until you fall.
And like you, you don't knowwhat you're getting into.
You don't know where this, thosehidden fears are going to be.
So maybe you feel a little more,I don't know comfortable pulling
the trigger a little faster too.
Well, I think that's another knowing now

what I didn't know then, right?
Like, so, I mean, one of the girls hada flipper and she didn't tell me until
her feet were over my shoulders and Ilooked over and there was a flipper.
What's a flipper?
What is that?
She had like some sort oftragic accident when she was
younger and she had a flipper.
Two things.
We need two things.
She didn't tell me and I know now.
So it would be a problem.

Wow.
You were, sometimes yourcommunication is so broken.
Like I don't even knowwhat to do with you.
When you say Flipper, you make itsound like she had a genetic deformity.
That's what I'm thinking.
Or an alter Oh.
No, she had an accident and shehad a deformed appendage and to be
fair, nobody knew about it untilher foot was over your shoulder.
It was a little

disconcerting when I look over and I'm like,
is that a fucking flipper?
You should probably warn

people of something like that.

Look, before we play, you need to know, I have
a flipper, but did you taste it?
Taste the flipper?
Yeah.

No, I smelled it though.
Oh, what did it smell like?
SeaWorld.
It was bad.

I can't with either of you.
Go to your rooms.
Yeah.
To the corner.
But no, she had a tragic accident andapparently a lawnmower ran over her
foot and literally half her foot was
missing.
Okay, well now
I feel

worse about this whole thing.

So.
She was having a great time.
You warned

Multiple (40:03):
a motherfucker before you put it right next to her face.
I think she did try to tell you though.
Not in English.
Okay.
Well, does she speak in Dolphin?
She spoke in Dolphin.
She didn't speak English.

We're probably going to need to do some heavy editing on
this episode before this may be the

last podcast we ever do.
Oh my God.
Now everyone out therewith a flipper is going to

message me and go, how rude of you.
Welcome to the last casual swingers

podcast.
Yeah, definitely.
You know, so I do challengeyou to a swimming race.
She would win.
All right.
I'm going to bring us back here tothe emotional conversation that we
were having before we went down intothe gutter, but I took us there.
So it's fine.
When we talk about relationships.
Our primary relationship,our lifestyle relationships.
And as we cross over into some ofthese emotional spaces, there's an

(40:58):
another, there's another emotionalspace you can find yourself in.
So we were throwing out an acronymlike NRE new relationship energy,
but there's another acronym thatwe've used here on casual swinger.
That also has an effect.
And when we talk about emotionallyBMS, boring, married sex, what happens?
I can't wait to hear this.
What happens in the instances whereyou start to develop those connections

(41:22):
and you have that NRE and you'rereally putting your back into it.
You're doing your best to impress thisperson and show them a great time.
And your partner's like, Hey.
Maybe next time.
Could you brush your teeth before we fuck?
Like, is that,

I've never said that,

but I mean, if you think about it in your primary relationship, you
fit sex in where you can get it in, right?
A lot of times it's not necessarilysomething that we're mindful
about or deliberate about.
We get it in where we get it in.
And then before a lifestyle experience,especially when you start to develop that
connection to that person or that desirefor that person or that NRE for that
person, really give it your best effort.

(42:01):
You put on a nice shirt.
You maybe, you know, brush yourteeth, put on deodorant, comb
your hair whatever the things are.
That maybe don't necessarily fallunder the fit in where you get in.
How do we deal with that?
And is that a danger?
If do we start to feel envy whenwe see our people doing that?
And maybe not, maybe we don'twant to fit in where we get.

(42:22):
And I want that too.

Good point.
So can I shorten that?
So have you ever found yourself beingenvious of a relationship dynamic you
have that maybe has that tinge of anemotional investment and now you're
comparing it to your relationship?
Has that ever happened to you guys?

I don't know.
I think the closest we'veever come to that was when we.
We did the experiment with our separatedates and when we were retelling what
happened on those dates, he talkedabout doing something with his date
that he had never done with me.
And that, well, it hurt my feelings.
It was really fun.

(43:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It hurt my feelings because I waslike, You know, I didn't say anything
at that time because I love her.
I love him.
And it wasn't somethingthat was malicious.
It was just something that I was like,Oh, I want him to do that with me.
But it did kind of highlightwhen we were going through the
separate dating we're still.
Working on it or going to do separatedating that we need to step our game up

(43:22):
with each other and plan elaborate datesfor each other and keep that fire going.
We have amazing sex, but it's those littlethings like make a reservation at that
restaurant you've wanted to go to forever.
You know, drag me down the alleyand fuck me against the building,
you know, or whatever it is, likethose things that you can kind of

(43:45):
recreate that NRE in a marriage.

But, and, but that is such a good point and it
requires emotional maturity totake that lesson learned and go.
Okay, because to your point, it'sgoing to happen if you do this kind of
stuff enough, you're right as a man,especially, and I don't know if women
feel the same way or not, but I canfeel when you were saying that I want to

(44:10):
impress her, whoever that new person is,whether she's there or not, I want to be.
My best and put on a good showor whatever, you know, you're

standing in the bathroom having a conversation.
Okay, little buddy,we're going to do this.
You're going to cry.

It's time to step up little guy.
And so we did the, there was twoparts to that separate date that
thing that I did that you're talkingabout that we had never done.
And just, it had been a while sinceI had put that much effort into
planning an original creative date.
And it wasn't you.
I was.
Planning it for.
And and so we talked about that.

(44:43):
That was a difficult little thing thatwe had to work through, but it did.
That's one of the benefits ofconsensual non monogamy in general is it
highlights holes in your relationship.
You may not even be aware of, butit became bubbling to the surface
because I spent that time because Idid, I wanted to impress this person.
I was getting this opportunity totake somebody new out on a date.
She's being gracious enough to allow it.

(45:04):
And I wanted it to be fun.
And.
And so, yeah, then I immediatelyafter that date was over, we
planned, I planned a date for us

to, but yeah, I try and bail your ass out of where you go, right?
Yeah,

honestly those conversations brought us closer because.
You know, we realized we had beendoing the day to day stuff and we're
neglecting some areas in our marriage.
And so I think it did make us kind ofstep it up and be like, yeah, that kind

of thing should be obvious.
I mean, it happens to the vastmajority of marriages over time, just
a little less steam than there was,you know, those first couple of years.
You know, I didn't realize it in themoment where I'm planning this date and
oh, this is, this could potentially hurther because she is literally watching

(45:55):
me put effort into researching the bestrestaurants or the coolest places to go.
And in a relationship that's noton a stable foundation that can
drive a big wedge between youtwo, that could be a deal breaker.

Well, and I think in comparison to most traditional monogamous.
Marriages ours is already way up here.
And so they would probably look atour normal everyday relationship and
be like, Hey, that's fucking amazing.
But, or that we're totally right.
But like, it just made us aware thatwe can elevate it even more, you know,
we can still continue to put morecare in and take it a little higher.

Cause I don't mind coming across those challenges and in
a relationship, there's like, there'ssomething that's really soothing about
knowing that you have this foundation,like we talk about no deal breakers.
There's no such thing in our relationship.
We'll get through no matter what happens,you know, our goal is never to hurt
your partner, but it is bound to happen.
You're human beings.
And I think for me, what I found iswhen I had a hard time using my words

(46:52):
because I was really I went betweenembarrassed and I don't know what
else, I still haven't found that word.
And I'm like, I know I'm feelingthis thing and we should talk about
this thing, but I'm really sad thatI have to mention this thing because
I feel like he should know it.
So I vacillated between that.
So using the words in thosescenarios are so, so much better.
But and now I'm losing my train of thoughtbecause I got lost in the emotion of it.

(47:16):
I like when she said shelost you, but she touched her

giant tits.
By the way, you guys can see that now.
I just got lost in the moment.
Myself.
We too were lost in themoment of your chest

was going to be at the grass.
That I found that I was okay.
If he was putting a similar amountof effort into somebody else as he
would into me, because at the endof the day, we're still going to go
home, still pay our bills and stillbe parents and dog owners and all the
other things we are during the day.
But if I get a feeling thatthey get more of something or.

(47:49):
Yeah.
Something I wouldn't necessarily get,then I think that feels like a threat.
Yeah.

Sure.
You know, we talk a lot and we'vesaid a lot of times, we say it about
Hedo a lot that going to Hedo willtake anything that's great about your
relationship and multiply it times 10.
Anything about it, about your relationshipwill multiply it times a hundred.
The lifestyle is the same way, right?
The lifestyle is not an answer.
To a lackluster relationshipthat is, is maybe running out

(48:16):
of steam to use your parlance.
It's not the answer to poorcommunication or maybe maybe
there's been some infidelity orthere's been something going on.
You know, there's a lot of markersin relationships for problems and the
lifestyle is never an answer to a problem.
The Norris poly, those arenot solutions to problems.

(48:37):
They are new levels of problems thatyou haven't started fucking with yet.

It's like having a baby to fix a marriage.
Yeah.
It's not going to work.

It is not the answer.
And there are very few times that Imake statements that are unequivocal
that just, that this is the way it is.
But I promise you.
Neither the life store life story,it's, yeah, we're selling shit
now, like lifestyle or polyamoryor anything like that are answers
to challenges and relationships.
They present new ones.
So do we see that?

(49:06):
I mean, we just talked about like drivinga wedge, like that can drive a wedge.
If there's already a wedge there,does it just make it worse?

I don't see how it couldn't make it worse.
If you are.
Going into this and either youor your partner are unwilling
to face these challenges andtalk transparently about them.
This is not for you because you know,we don't feel like it's a lot of work.
People will say sometimes beingin the lifestyle is a lot of work.

(49:33):
Any relationship takes work, but if youare looking at it as work, like, Oh, here
we go again, we got to talk about thisor we got to share our feelings again.
That's the beautiful thing tous is we get to communicate.
We get to share, we get toovercome these problems and it
makes us feel almost bulletproof.

(49:53):
Like look at the shitwe've worked through.
We get excited when we look backand we're like, can you believe some
of the shit we've come through andhow good our relationship is now?
That's a beautiful thing.

I don't think I've ever thought about this before this
moment, but I think the lifestyleand our relationship Mallory is
the thing we fight about the least.

Amen.
I think we had a knock it down, dragout fight about music the other day,
which is rather embarrassing as well.
Thinking back, but I meantevery word I said, though,

whatever that argument was about.
Can we re rehash that right now, please?

There were a few disparaging comments made about my
taste in music and my intelligence.
So, well, you, she wasprobably right about that.
She was.
I think I, she called me boomer too.
I gotta pee.
Oh, great.
I asked

Multiple (50:43):
you if you had to pee before this.

All right.
Well, so we're just going to continueminus Scott's bladder for a moment.
As he sits over there dancing this is the

Multiple (50:51):
casual Polly.
Yeah.

Well, you know, what we've covered here today is we've kind
of talked about the blurred lines, butwhat we really haven't covered, and we
can cover this from a female perspective.
Let's just be the Malloryand April show for a minute

because I don't have to pee.

Is it a thing in our relationships and do we seek it?
Do we seek that deeperemotional connection?
And if you do seek it, how do you havethat conversation with somebody that
maybe hasn't articulated that yet,that they think maybe this is just a
transactional swing or relationshipand you're like, Hey, I like you.
And we'd like to be closerfriends with you guys.
How do you have that conversation,April, when you do and Mallory, how

(51:30):
have you had it in the past withpeople we've been friends with?

Are you talking about like, as far as like, if
we're at an event and somebodycomes up to us, just go, how do you

go deeper?
How do you go deeper and get closerto that emotional connection?
But still, because we're, wewon't be established as there's a
space between poly and lifestyle.
How do you get there?
If that's something you want.

So just be open to friendship.
Like these are these people that I wantto go golfing with or play pickleball with
or go to dinner with on a Friday night?
If so, I'm going to reach out to them.
Hey, you guys want to go todinner when we're at dinner?
Hey, you guys want to go play golf?
You want to do something?
That's how, and it's so hardas adults to form friendships.
Right.
And so, but we've found it so mucheasier in the lifestyle because people

(52:09):
are open to those conversations.
And they're looking for their tribe.
They're looking for people to gohang out with and do things with.
And a lot of times with these friends,sex isn't even on the table yet.
And we make that clear up front.
Like we're just, you know, welet them know we're a slow burn.
We just like to get to know you.
And now we've got like a whole groupof friends that we can go do things

(52:32):
with and some of them we have sexwith, some of them we don't, but it's
not really like a, here's our list ofrules for, it's just kind of organic.

Right.
You don't actually sit downand interview them per se, I
think, especially at this time.
Point in the game and how like theculture of the lifestyle has changed.
Everyone kind of presents how theygo about forming relationships and
what their goals and how they definesuccess are, especially if they've
been in it for a little while.
. So I think it's just a graduation.
You know, you ask how do you get there?

(53:03):
It's a grad graduation of opportunity,like she said, offering to go
here, do these things a big deal.
Just like in dating relationships.
Traditional dating is.
Going away for a weekend with a couple.
I mean, that's a big, that'show you kind of open the door.
You're not going to just invitesomeone that maybe you're DTF with.
Maybe you will, but I wouldn't like Ithat's, I'm very, my space is like having

(53:24):
people where I sleep is a big deal for me.
Like that's almost like a show ofintimacy for bringing us into your

space sandwich in between you and bet.
Well and also like we've got a verybusy schedule and so there's people
like we have friends that we messagedwith all the time, but we haven't
really been able to see them in personand that's a way to connect to like,
so we're building this relationshipand if they aren't patient enough to
wait around for a time when we can.

(53:53):
Meet up somewhere or go to dinnersomewhere, then they'll probably aren't
in this for the same reason we are.
And I think they usuallynaturally weed themselves out.

Like it just works itself out that way.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Do you know we had a couple of, you know, we kind of touched
on separate a little bit, the wordseparate play, separate this, separate
that separate dating is separate anything.
A gateway.
To the space between swinging and Polly

texting, separate phone calls.
Yeah.
Sounds a little bit loaded.
Cause we do separate textingand separate, like independent
relationships with our play partners.
Like as a couple, like Iwill talk to him directly.
He'll talk to her directly.
Yeah.
It's so funny.
It's so funny

how certain things.
Are terrifying to one couple and feellike a nothing burger to another couple.
And we're all so different.
We

don't do separate texting.
Yeah.
And I mean, we do like with our friends,but it's very like vanilla texting.
Like we don't do sextingand stuff like that.
We don't sext anyway.
We don't do that

Multiple (54:54):
in a group, but yeah, go ahead.

Oh, no, go ahead.

I was just gonna say, one of the ways we get
around is we have a shared phonenumber that's a separate line.

That's true.
We don't use it in these scenarios becauseI really like, as of current, there's only
two couples we'd ever really do that with.
And I think it really depends on them.
Like, it's not just a blanket statementthat we're, we do this with everyone.
It's a very select few that we havethat level of trust and security.

Which is why I asked that question because of how we look at it.
I mean, pretty much everything we say iscoming from a place of, you know, this
is kind of how we think about things.
And in this particular case,yeah, it's very unique for us,
but it should be unique, right?
You shouldn't have a what am I,for my parlance, you know, poly
light relationship with everybody.
So in those individual cases, what arethe markers that make it that thing is

(55:42):
separate communication, separate play, andby separate, it could be separate room,
separate houses, separate events, separatedating in my opinion, I think the answer
is yes, but, and I just wanted to knowwhat you guys kind of think about that.
And.
If that's something that you're lookingfor as a listener out there who, you
know, there's only three of them.
So if one of them thinksso it was two last time we
recorded, so we're on our way.
A 33 percent increase.

(56:02):
That's a big jump.
I know we're killing it, but ifthey're one of those people that are
going, I would like to have that.
How do you get me?
That's a hard conversation to havebecause it's very scary if that other
person isn't in that mindset, but ifit happens naturally and gradually.
Is that a way to help that sort ofthing happen naturally and gradually
if you feel like that's what youneed out of that relationship is to
start having separate conversationsor a separate dating scenario.

(56:25):
And if not, how?

I love you.
I lost track of thequestion that, that was,

ask your question again, sir.

All right.
We're going to just shortenthat fucking question.
Yeah.
How do we get there?
Was it just me?
No.
How do you get there?
How do you get from, if I want adeeper relationship or I want a
something that's a little more thanswinging, but a little less than
Polly, where the fuck do I start?
Yeah.
That's

Multiple (56:53):
a good question.

Oh, first there has to be an agreement between
the two of you that we both.
Either we both want to tryand deepen things a bit with
other people or we both don't.

We never had that conversation.
It just kind of organically happened.
We never had that conversation.
I just want to bringthat before the court.

He's

mildly hot.
I'm

not.

I'm so broken.
But things

that happen as happenstance, by chance, Can
be bad, like strikes, right?
That's chance.

Well, something you said earlier was that we get,
we'll get through any misstep.
So there is no I don't think youcan write an SOP for how to do.
Each different step or variationinside the, under the consensual
non monogamy umbrella, it's goingto happen differently for everybody.
And you have to have that beliefin your foundational relationship

(57:49):
that when, and if you, like yousaid, if we do this long enough,
you're going to screw something up.
Oh, yeah.
When you screw it up, or even if youplayed like the situation she talked about
that happened on our separate date, itwas well within the rules we had set up.
So even if you do things right, somethings are going to cause problems
you didn't anticipate or expect.
You have to ha Ding dong.

(58:12):
Pizza's here.

What, that's the hooker I ordered.
I think it's a FedEx guy Isaw him walk across the aisle.
Okay,

and apparently Scott felt the need to get up and check it,
so we're gonna see what Who came by,
we
ordered a new dildo from casual toys.
com shameless

bloop.
Yeah,

you

just have to have that trust in your
foundational relationship that whensomething bubbles to the surface.
You're going to you're going to have faithin your partner that it wasn't malicious.
It wasn't intentional, at leastmost of the time, and that
you're going to work through it.
Now is this the opportunity toprocess the emotions that are, that
we're hurting from and then figureout the path forward afterwards.

(59:00):
And if you don't have that belief.
Then maybe don't try thatthing, whatever that thing was.
Yeah, there you go.

Do we think that the fear of where it could end up stops
us from deepening those relationships?
Yes.

Right?
That's, I would say a hundredpercent that's my fear.

Yes.
Sure.
I mean, isn't that all of our fear thatwe're gonna up naked and alone in a pile
of our own filth, minus our partner?

That would go that far.
I'll never be filthy.
I mean, not that I was reallytalking about Scott, like,
I'll take care of my shit.
Look I don't wanna be lonely.
You guys are screwed.
And I, right now I

Multiple (59:36):
don't be,

well, I, and I be.
I bet Mickey you'll resonate with this.
I want us to try the separate datingthing because I think it will, I think
both of us like the idea of having, youknow, an intense connection and having
and being able to have those momentswith somebody else, but I do also live
with this insecurity that I know, no,not think, but know that she could find

(01:00:03):
somebody that at least is traditionally,I don't want to say a better man, but.
You could find somebody better looking,richer, more, you know, they can take
you around the world and show youthings I may never be able to do.
And I know that's not necessarily whatyou're looking for, but the immature
insecure mind that we sometimes haveof wanting to be that male provider.

(01:00:24):
I know there's better providers out there.
So.
That's the thing that worriesme about the separate stuff.

Naughty Gym April (01:00:30):
If you're out there.
I'm just kidding.
867 5309.
Contact April today.

Naughty Gym Scott (01:00:36):
And that's the end of our separate dating experiments.

Mickey Gordon (01:00:41):
I, you know, I started to fuck with you when
you first started talking.
I'm like, yeah, she totally can.
But then as you, it really becameclear to me that's an extremely
vulnerable thing for you.
So I stopped and didn't fuck withyou because I feel the same way.
Everybody knows Mallory's hotter than me.
You don't need to tell me you can stop.
Please stop messaging me.
Stop telling me I got the message.
I know.

(01:01:02):
But at the same time, I think there'sa part of me, the compulsive part
of me wants her to experience thosepeople and wants her to enjoy them.
Get that validation that she is smart.
She is beautiful.
She is funny.
She is interesting.
She is engaging She is an amazing dancer.
She does have great taste in music andwhiskey and bad taste in men But you

(01:01:23):
know, it's I do want her to have all ofthose things I just don't want her to
necessarily have them without me at all.
Yeah.
So that fear, I don't knowthat it ever goes away.

Mallory Gordon (01:01:34):
No, I have to agree.
And I keep going I bring it down tolike a math equation because that's
how I can quantify it and like dealwith it in the moment is they can have
some or even most of those things.
And I'd love for you to have that too.
They just can't have it all.
Cause that's for me.
So as long as you'resharing most of yourself.
Wait a minute, what do

you mean?
They can't?
Who can't have all of my?
They can only have half of my dick.

Yeah.
So like for instance, as we sit heretoday, would in a, like an overnight
situation, that would probably besomething that I would not be comfortable
with, like a sleepover in the same bed.
For me, that's a line that's too intimate.
But have we been in separatebeds with somebody else that
we've Spooned with a little bit.

(01:02:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
We've done that.
But like a sleepover, that's a me thing.
That's for me.
That's my intimate spot.
That's my safety.
But do you think,

but do you think that might change?
Like there's all kinds of thingsthat I would say that like right
now I would not be comfortable withX, Y, and Z with her doing one of
those, but I also recognize that.
That may, those may just be insecuritiesthat just melt away at some point.

Maybe, and maybe it regresses too a little bit.
That happens a lot.
And when you've been in the space forso long, it kind of ebbs and flows
because sometimes in a life happens, youstart dealing with stuff and you got to
pull, you got to circle the wagons, yougot to pull it in and figure it out.
Yeah.
And then you start to take stepsforward in one direction or another.

And that's okay.
We went through a period of six monthsto a year, maybe, where we just put all
play on hold and we're focusing on us.
And that was fantastic.
The best thing we could have donewas just, we were still going to
events and still having a blast.
We just weren't playing with anybody.
And it

didn't feel in the moment like a great thing, but
in hindsight, it's so easy to see.
I mean, we progressed our relationshipwith each other progressed through that
period because it, it gave us time tothink through some issues where when
you're going to a party or an eventall the time, maybe you don't get
time to process that kind of stuff.
But we came out the otherside of that so much stronger.

(01:03:35):
And some of the things that someof the fears I had, even at sep
with separate dating, which.
Was a subject we broached beforethis pause now have just sort
of seemed to melt away from me.
I, and it, maybe it was just the timeI've had to think through it, but
yeah, that break was fantastic for us.
Yeah.

Maybe it's a little like, if I say object
permanence, does that mean anything?
It's something that babies learnin infancy, like mom goes away,
but she's going to come back.
I think there's some examples wherewe still deal with that emotionally.
Like, is this going to alwaysbe this way and always feel this
way or is it going to get better?
Yeah.
Is he going to find somebody else whenhe goes on a date with somebody else?
Is he, they're going to be better thanme in some way that's going to threaten

(01:04:16):
my position in this relationship.
What?
And so one of the deal

with that.
Yeah.
One of the elements of compersionis I hope he's better than me at
something so you can enjoy it.

Multiple (01:04:23):
Right.
But that's

not your fear though, is it?
That I'm going to findsomebody better than
you.

I don't think you can.

You were going to say that I teed that up for you.
I

feel like I am the perfect woman.
Wow.
I do.
That's impressive.
I feel like I am Mrs.
Wright.
You are welcome.
I
love you.
I know.
And vice versa though.
I

know.
I found the right one for me.
Right.
So what is your big fear with me?

That you won't, you don't realize that sometimes.
That I don't realize how great you are.
But my biggest thing is vain and physical.
That you will be with someonewho is much better looking
than me
and feel that attraction.
And because I feel like youdo fall in love easily, and I

(01:05:13):
know you hate when I say that.
That's my worry.
I can't wait to introduce you to Jack.
Oh God.
Jack.
Jack.

Welcome.
He falls in love faster than you.
Yes.
This is going to be spectacular.

Jack's never met a girl.
He and Jack and Kissy.
Shout out to Jack and Kissy.

Look, if I have some recreational party favors
coursing through my system, I do fallin love with everybody in the room.
Well, yeah, that's different though.

I'm talking about if you were like solo dating the same woman.
And forming that type of relationship.
I'm not talking about,no, I know what you mean.

And that's one of the things we've talked about on the
separate dating that we disagree on.
I understand why she wants that.
She does.
She's one of our original rules wasno more than two dates, separate
dates with the same person.
And I didn't like that because Ihate the process of finding the date
to begin with the swiping, texting,messaging, Oh, this seems promising.

(01:06:06):
It's exhausting.
It's not worth the constant effort,but if you do find one, somebody that
you have that connection with, I'm notwanting to go out on a date with them
every week and be messaging and sendingthem flowers, I just want to know that
there's somebody there that has aninterest in me, that I have an interest in
them and once every couple months we go.
You know, play around for a little while.

(01:06:28):
Yeah,

I thought about that.
Flowers might be a line for me.
If somebody sent you flowers,I might get a twitch.
Well,

I've been sent lingerie.
Yeah.
I've been sent lingerie by someone weplayed with and that was a big deal.

Did that bother you?

You know what?
I had to think about it for a second.
It definitely hit me sidewaysbecause I wasn't expecting it.
But it didn't bother me becauseof the relationship we have.
And he asked me first.
I didn't ask permission.

That would bother you.
Gifts

is one of my love languages and it's not
like expensive, lavish gifts.
Just like, leave me a note,something, you know, you find
a flower in the yard, pick it.
And I would love, send me gifts,

just address it in April.
You're just using thisshow as a platform, right?
She has her own affiliate.
No, but I really do

think that would bother Scott if somebody was sending.

Well, you never know until you face it, right?
We think we know how we're goingto react, but we don't, I don't
think it would bother me if.
I knew the person and really liked themand like we, like you said, if somebody
asked and it was somebody I liked, if youasked to send her lingerie, that wouldn't,
I don't think that would bother me.
But if some random guy that you hadmet in a bar or something, especially

(01:07:43):
why does he have our address?
How

much info was I giving him?
Like if I was separate dating a guy.

Yeah.
And he sent it and then you opened itand we're like gushing with excitement.
I'd be like I don't like this.

Yeah.
But I do want to give a small pieceof advice for the guys that are
out there that are listening tothis conversation in this moment.
So gifts when it comes to, cause again,you're expanding beyond the confines
of the traditional swing relationshipand that transactional nature.
So Mallory did get lingerie fromsomebody when you go to send a
gift to the other person's partner.

(01:08:18):
Don't just ask theirpartner, ask your partner to.
Oh yeah, that's a good and it just becausethey got a gift from somebody else doesn't
mean they're okay with you giving a gift.
Somebody else asked me how I know,

I know exactly what you're talking about.
So we had a situation, so that happenedin exchange and then I find out, I
don't know, a couple of weeks later.
That you had sent her a toy.
I replaced her toy.
Okay, fine.

That's a very important distinction.
It was just a business.

I'm not going to argue this because you remember
this way differently than I do.
I think I raised my hand and Isaid, Hey, I would have played
this out exactly how it played out.
I'm just a little put off and hurtby the fact that I didn't get a
voice and say in the matter, andwe're supposed to be a team and we
as a team, we don't make decisionslike that necessarily in a vacuum.

(01:09:09):
And I just want to have that transparency.

Yeah.
I fucked it up.
Well, that's a good examplebecause if he had asked, you may
have said, yeah, I don't care.

Well, it wouldn't have necessarily even needed to be permission.
Hey, I had this idea aboutsending so and so this.

You think that's appropriate and you would
probably have been okay with it.
Let

me help you pick it out.
What would have probably made meswing on him is if I heard from
her about the amazing toy thather husband gave and used on me.
And I'd be like, excuse me.
Yeah.
When you find it out secondhand, it is.

And it's, I'm glad I'm not alone.
It's like sometimes I'm just like.

That's what happened.
, like I just started sweating a little. Should I not be only from your home?
I literally tried to have

that conversation with Shut.
I know, like, should I not be offended?
And like I, I reallysat on it for a while.
I was like no.
I have to have this conversation because.
Yeah.
It's happening.
I'm not.
Yeah.
I'm not okay with not having a voice here.
Yeah.

Now you guys know for a fact that on Casual Swinger, I
don't just put other people on blast.
I throw myself under the bus.
I can see

how, because I can see Scott doing something
similar though, thinking, well,I don't, she's not going to care.
Like, I'm going to send it to her.
She got a gift.
I'm of course, I'm going to send agift and I can see Scott doing that,
but going into something like that,knowing he wasn't trying to be an
asshole or trying to take your voiceaway from the situation, I'm sure
helped you guys get through that

and not didn't mean it didn't hurt or bother you or whatever.
Yeah.

For me, it was needing you to know, cause I assumed and
trust you that you didn't do that onpurpose that there was no nefarious and
malicious activity that was happening.
Obviously you didn't know thatthis is the messaging I got from
it and this is how it made me feel.
Yeah.
It's my responsibility to you.

And being married to me is there, there's a.
Threshold of mindlessness that sheaccepts by being married to me.
However, that doesn't,

a lot of it.
And, but that doesn't

absolve me of having to get my ass handed to me over it.
It just means she, sheknows why it happened.
And so it's not like I'manswering for malfeasance.
I'm answering forstupidity and I can relate.
And in this case, yeah, it really,it sucked because I thought my
heart was in the right place and Ithought I did all the right things.

(01:11:27):
I just left out a really important step

and nothing you said there was wrong.
You.
Yes.
You did all the right things except one.
It never, it would have worked out exactlythe same except for that little piece.
When we have conversations like that,the analogy I use, especially if
I'm raging upset and like trying tocontrol my emotions, I draw a parallel
between murder and manslaughter.
Different crimes, person's still dead.

That's right.
Right.
But you see, here's the thing.
She gets off on the crime of passionthing because she's always so
passionately pissed at me that wheneverI die, it was a crime of passion.

Always.
Always.

100%.
She's, it's either, sheloves me to death or.
Make sure the death is imminent.

Well, yeah, you talked about earlier too, about the, you
know, you have, we have insecurities,but you also want to see your partner
thriving and enjoying themselves.
So that compersion comesin and I'm thinking, I keep
thinking about this gift thing.
Now, I, there would be a partof me, the logical brain.
The nice guy, part of me would be like,I am so glad she is loving that gift.

(01:12:28):
I'm not good at those things.
And this person's maybehelping me to need that.
I don't, I'm not great at, and thenthere would be the other part of me.
And I don't know which one ofthese wins out in that situation.
That would just be.
So jealous and irritated.
And then I'd be watchingevery little thing she did.
If she ever touched that giftitem, whatever it was like, Oh, she

(01:12:50):
thinking about him, you know, or shebetter not cook with that spatula.
He bought her, I willnot fucking eat that.
Lasagna

you have like this, like a rational, like animosity
towards pancakes, because that's whatI was sending April for Christmas.
Yeah, always think

of me when you flip a quarter, well, your emotions, just,
you cannot think clearly through,through intense emotions and you have
to take some time to process that

I'd say for me, it comes down to want versus need.
If someone is providing to herthings, she wants that make her happy.
I'm happy.
If somebody steps in and providesher something she needs that I
can't provide, that is devastating.
Like a spatula.
Like a

spatula.
Yeah.
Yeah.

And for me I'm not

okay with your gender role.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Like the commentary there.

Or a hammer.
Yeah.
Well, the hammer she will use on me before

the Cool box,

April's trying to get her Amazon wishlist.
She's leveraging your showto get, she really is.

And has yet to once mentioned a sex toy.
You know, I own a fucking store, right?
Come on.
Need a dildo, need something womanizer.
There we go.
Womanizer for the win.
Well, I looked

up, let me say this.
I looked up the definitions of polyamory.
Okay.
Let's hear that.
And so these are like,who's definition by the way?
Well, so one, likehere's Miriam Webster's.
Oh, that'll be it.
Right.
So we're not talking, youknow, they obviously, they
tried to research their thing.
This is not an expert in polyamory,but it's just the dictionary the
state or practice of having morethan one open romantic relationship

(01:14:28):
at a time, which open, I find theromantic part is, well, right.
Because that's vague too, right?
Open relationships, a vague word.
What does that mean?
But I also, in the same article foundsomething that may say it better
than I've ever been able to say it.
The type of thing that I'm.
Like in an ideal situation.
So let me find it.

(01:14:48):
Oh, it's, it, well, one of you, and Ithink it was you that brought up the
word situation ships the other night.
Right.
And I'd never heard that word.
No.
Really?
No.
Never heard it.
It's

trending with the youngins.

It's . The youngins.
Now you're making it sound old again.
Yeah.
Well, I'm very hip.
Unless you didn't know that.
Yeah.
Clearly.
Because we wearing bell bottoms right now.
Yeah.
I'm, I I'm very woke.
So, choice.

Okay.
Tell us what Situationship is and turnt.
So,

People who tend to gravitate towards situationships
are those who want the emotionalconnection and intimacy with a partner,
but in a compartmentalized way thatthey can have the emotional presence
and connection in person, but whenapart, they can have their freedom
that you're not, there's no req.
Responsibilities outside of that, asituationship can offer a spun, stress

(01:15:37):
free way to enjoy the benefits ofrelationship without a major emotional
commitment apart from the in person tome, that, that feels like what I've been
trying to say, I chase a little bit, Idon't chase is the right word, but that's
the thing I think I would enjoy themost, the transactional DTF type stuff.

(01:15:58):
I can have fun with that a littlebit, but it's just not the thing that

definitely not my preferred play style.
Yeah.

Yeah.
I would say situationship is, it's notsomething I had ever heard before we
started talking about it the other night.
I think it's.
That's pretty good.
That's pretty close.

But for me, I need a little more maintenance
than that and I don't want anyoneto feel responsible for me.
But like in between those timesand gaps, like it is nice to get
a text like, Hey how's the family?
It doesn't have to beanything overtly sexual.
It can be.
I don't mind flirting over texts,but I don't want to have to like
tell you the morning, give you allthe details of my day necessarily
or hear yours because love, yeah,but I don't have time for that.

(01:16:36):
I have one person that we.
I like two ships in the night and canbarely get off bullet points before
bed about how our day transpired.

Right.
Well, where's say without going too muchlonger, cause you know, we have, we've
run a little long here, but that's okay.
Cause I think thisconversation has been great.
Where's the line.
We talk about things like textingoutside of a situation ship.
Good morning.
Good night.
Those are probably good.
What about things like I miss you,

April?

I mean, I'm,
I
don't mind, like I've messaged our friends.
I miss you when we haven't seen themin a couple of weeks, but you've

messaged our friends.
You've never messaged.
Him.
Well, we never and said that.

Do, I mean, does that cross message everybody took a breath?
Well, we don't separate message then.
Yeah.
I think

well, well, we've had a, like you said, some light
separate exchanges before but heasked a specific question, like, if
you were to see me message a woman.
Separately.
Hey, I miss you.
How does that?
I'll

make you fucking miss her.
I missed you with every shot so far.
Pack your bags.
We missed her for long.
I don't know.
Yeah.
That would probably.
Yeah.
That'd probably get me a little bit.
I think it would me too.
Yeah.
Yeah.

At least me today.
Yeah.
I think that would be tough.
I'm not sure it shouldmake me feel that way.
Like, I think that would be a partof me to go, okay, that's bothering
me, but should it, and is thissomething I should now, is this a
is this a thing I need to work on?
I'm not sure it is, but it.
It

certainly draws the relationship itself into a focus that
might not have been there before.
Yeah.
Yeah.

It also may change the messaging to the
receiver on the other end.
What about you?

I would say it's something that obviously if you
receive a message like that.
you obviously bring that upto your partner and say, Hey,
this was expressed to me.
And of course, I miss this person too.
We haven't seen them in awhile, but I want you to know
that I'm responding to it.
And it's not in a context thatshould create or generate fear or

(01:18:39):
Are you uncomfortable with this?
Should I dial this back?
I think that is the type of messagethat should generate a conversation
between you and your partner.

Yeah.
Cause it can be ambiguousdepending on how it's framed, who
it was to, how often it comes.
Cause I tend to say, I miss your faces.
And when I talk about my friends,I can't wait to see your face.
I miss you so much.
Does that take

the emotional connotation out of it

a little bit?
But I think in and of itself, like it.
It's down to the nomenclature.
I miss you.
That could potentially have adeeper meaning that, that may
rock people back on their heelsand may make them uncomfortable.
I miss you.
How though?
Like that would be my question.
I miss you.
How?
In what regard?
Do you miss?

(01:19:21):
That dick in what way?

Yeah.

So I miss you as a blurred line.

Yeah, I think so.
Very blurry line.
Yeah.
I don't think there's an answer tothat and I, you could probably, we
thought about it, come up with abouta hundred other of those questions.
Oh yeah.
I probably could.
Long's where, and that'swhere it's so important.
I dreamt about you.
Yeah there's one.
That I don't know that one would, well,I would go, well, what was the dream?
Were we making pancakes with yournew spatula and what are you wearing?
Yeah.

(01:19:49):
But you have to have that trustthat's, you know, you're going to have
those little messages back and forth.
Even if it's a group message that may, youmay have not met in a certain way, but you
didn't think through before you sent it.
And your partner may feela certain way about it.
So you have to have that trust that I donot believe you mean anything malicious.
But at least Scott today would preferyou not have those types of messages.

(01:20:13):
What

is the recommended threshold for benefit of the doubt in
this situation with these blurred lines?
What do you mean?
Meaning that so you got that message andmaybe you responded to it or your and
maybe it did it turn into something youshouldn't have or maybe you got it and
you didn't think anything of it and thenyour partner sees it because maybe you
share messages or something like that.
And then.

(01:20:33):
They're like, they're mad.
And you're like, wait a minute.
I didn't think that was a big deal.
I'm sorry.
Where's the benefit of the doubtline on that to go, Hey, I was
comfortable with you having this.
Separate friendship how do wedetermine where that blurred line
ends and it becomes a hard line?
It's hard.

It is.
I think you fuck it up a little bit.
I think you got it wrong.
I agree with you, Valerie.
Not on purpose, obviously, but you know.
It's really tough.
And that goes for this space anyway.
Well, yeah.
It's going to be differentfor every relationship.
Yeah, there's always going to bepitfalls and landmines that we don't
know about until they present themselves.
And you said how much birth andwhat's the quantifiable source

(01:21:13):
to go, Hey, that's too much.
And I can't, I don't feel likegiving you the benefit of the doubt.
I think we kind of have to giveeach other the benefit of the doubt.
Is the benefit of the doubteasier if you know his partner?
You're if you don't.
It would be for me.

If you know the other person, does the
benefit of the doubt get wider?
It

would be, well, yeah, somebody I like.
I will say this, that while I maynot know what things are going
to bother me, there'll be things.
We're going to push the envelope alittle bit and try some new things.
But if, I, well, if I did somethingand she then came to me and said, all
right, look I know you didn't meananything, but I'd like for you to not
do this thing X, whatever X was again.

(01:21:52):
And then I did it again.
Well, now we've, this is nolonger blurred lines anymore.
This is a youth.
This was malicious at this point.
So certainly if once something, whenyou're using your words and you address a
thing, that thing shouldn't happen again

that's how all of our boundaries have moved though.
You make what I guess peoplewould call maybe a misstep, but
it's an unintentional thing.
And then you discuss it.
Why am I feeling uncomfortable?
What brought those feelings up?
And then you talk through it and then yougo, Oh, well, it's really not a big deal.
That's okay for us now.

Yeah.
Well, and I think that's kind of thedifference between stepping in shit
and stepping on a landmine, right?
Because you step in shit,you go, Oh, damn it.
I like these shoes too.
Right.
And then you step on a landmine,you lose a leg or you're done.
You're dead, right?
It's, I mean, something bad happened.
And I think there's a lot oflandmines in the lifestyle.
I think that blurring lines likethis does make the lifestyle harder.
It's lifestyle leveled up, but atthe same time, there's a lot of.

(01:22:52):
Positive that can come out of it,especially for people that you're
either compulsive, which is me or ifyou are just a generally emotional
person that prefers that connectivity

well, you say that it's lifestyle leveled up
and in a sense, I agree with that.
Certainly for us, I would say that.
But I have met other people thathave started their consensual non
monogamy journey with separate dating.
And like, like, yeah, that's butto them, that was the easiest way.
Yeah.
This whole idea of likewatching, being with watching my

(01:23:22):
partner be with somebody else.
That was a big step for us.
We didn't want to do that.
So we just separate dated.
So for them, the easier thing.
was the, to not see it and thatlike fucking somebody in the same
room was a big step up for them.
So while I would agree that Ithink for the majority of us,
the separate stuff is a step up.
I don't think it's that way for everybody.

It's fascinating.
Yeah.
I would coach against

that.
And I would coach against thatbecause I'm a believer in the
idea that what we don't know.
If we know A and we knowD, we make up B and C.
That's the way the human brain works.
So if I out of sight, out of mindsomething, I'm going to make up the worst
possible version of that in my fears.

Yeah.
See, I'm the opposite.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I suggested separate dates
is because I don't want to know.
I don't want to see, I don't want to know.
I don't need to know her.
I don't need to be friends with her.
I just need to know thatyou had a good time.
She was a nice person.
Whatever, you know, I don't,I want, I would prefer that

(01:24:21):
because one of the fears you

have is we talked about something similar to this earlier is for
where I go out on this date a couple oftimes with some girl that you don't know.
Great.
Things go great.
You don't care.
It's all good.
But then we're at anevent and And she's there.
And I said, Oh, this is like,

if it was like a friend in our circle or something,
and now I have to see her at eventsand him and her have these secret
exchanges, they have inside jokes.
They have things that I don't know about.
I don't want to see it.

Does that increase your level of forgiveness though?
Because if you said, I don't want to know,and there's things I don't want to know.
I don't want to know.
When you do that, and then you findout something that you didn't know,
and then you're like, you should havetold me that I need to know that.
Right.
I mean, does that increase yourforgiveness level for that?
Does it give them a wider birth sinceyou told him you didn't want to know?

Yeah, I'm pretty forgiving person

Yeah.

Yeah.
I trust that he wouldn't doanything intentionally malicious.
So the benefit of the doubt gets widersince you said, I don't want to know,

but if you're a person that does want to know, then open your mouth.
So, so

if you're a guy, I mean a girl that we don't know
that you're really attractive andyou like bald, older guys, right?
There you go.
Well, I think you don't want

an older woman.
Maybe.
Maybe she likes younger guys.

Well, I'm not one.
I'm talking about for me.
Yeah, Scott's 21.
I didn't, no, I didn't say that.
Yeah, I'm saying I'm an older guy, sothey have to be okay with me being 51.
Welcome

to the semantics portion of the show.

Right.
No, see how things canbe easily misunderstood.
We're going to watch this back nowthat it's recorded and I didn't say
anything about not liking older women.

And I'm going to feel so vindicated by that.
By the way, every woman 52 andup that listens to this show
is now called you an asshole.

But if you're an attractive, tall guy.
That I do know and have some respect for.
You might want to call her

there.
You go.
I think we've covered a lot ofdifferent angles, a lot of different
subjects here, and it's all beenkind of around the same thing.
The third lines betweenswinging and polyamory.
Was there a definitive answer here?
No, because it was never supposed to be.
This is not something that there's a onesize fits all or an answer for everybody.
That is the entire point.
Of the episode, the blurred lines willbe different for you than they are

(01:26:45):
for Mallory and I or Scott and April.
And we are making mistakes as we gothrough this 18 years, still fuck it up.
She still gets mad at me allthe time for things I do.
Things I don't do were things I didn'tthink I did wrong till I found out later.
It happens to all of us.

Mallory, for the record, I think you're nicer
than you're coming off in this.

Oh no, she's amazing.
She's the most forgivingperson in the world.

It's all the things that occupy my brain that I don't say and
do response to this life that we have.
I think that's reallywhere my martyrdom come in.
Yeah.

Well, and having to live with me.
I'm a train wreck.
So you're a

delight.

I am, but this has been a blast.
So do us a quick favor, remind everybodyif they want to go to be better at being
bad week and they want to, or maybe joinNaughty Gym and stop being a fat ass.
I'm a fat ass.
I can say it.
If you guys.
If somebody wants to getcloser, get connected with
Naughty Gym, how do they do it?
How do they find you?
How do they both be better at being that
week?

Well, let me say first, you've lived an impressive
journey since we last really saw you.
First time we met you guys wasin Miami at PCAP and I think you
weighed 1114 pounds just about.
And I don't know how muchweight you've lost, but you
showed me a picture yesterday.
I don't even recognize you.
So kudos to you causethat is not easy to do.
But yeah, if somebody wants to joinNaughty Gym, it is a legitimate, it

(01:28:01):
is, this has, it really has nothing todo with consensual non monogamy other
than the fact that it is a communityfull of consensually non monogamous
people, but it's a legitimate seriousstrength and conditioning program that
will help you lose weight, get in shape,be healthier, all that sorts of stuff.
If you want to join a naughtyGym's membership program,

and then if you want to join us at be better at being bad week and
hedonism, you can go to our website, www.
naughtygym.
com and click the link through there.
But all booking is done through Hedo.
So just go to hedonism.
com book January 4th through the11th, 2025 and you'll join us there.

So if you're there, you're be better at being
bad and you will see these guys.
And a bunch of other creators andinfluencers and people in the space,
intelligent people and us notice.
I left us out of the smart people.

That very smart, I guess I'm guilty by association.
Oh no, you're much smarter than me.
We all know

that.
All right.
Well, Hey, I think this thing'sprobably gone on long enough.
Hopefully people are still hangingout and having a good time.
Now, you know how tobe better at being bad.
Mallory, you want to telleverybody how to find us?

Oh shit.
All right.
We are casual swinger everywhere.
Casual swinger.
com you can find us on social media,which is Instagram Twitter and YouTube.
Hello.
You can see us now.
Yeah.
And we're also on the dating sites.
That's SDC Kasidie and SLS.

There you go.
Ladies and gentlemen, thishas been us with Naughty Gym
talking about blurred lines.
Thank you for listening to casual swinger.

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Blurred Lines - The Land Between Swinging & Polyamory

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