July 25, 2024 • 64 mins
A new cohort of inspiring and determined individuals has moved into leadership positions at cultural organizations—and they’re challenging traditional notions about what arts management should look like.
In this episode, CI’s VP, Managing Director Christopher Williams sits down with three young leaders to discuss generational shifts in leadership styles, navigating the complexities of people management, and the changes they hope to see in their respective arts communities and the industry at large.
2:20 - Canton Symphony Orchestra’s Rachel Hagemeier reflects on her promotion to CEO at just 25 years old. She shares hard-won lessons in people management, self-advocacy, and listening to your gut.
21:05 - Monica Holt chats about her career advancement at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, the vulnerability of leadership, and the power of learning new skills.
41:40 - CI’s Priya Iyer Doshi pulls back the curtain on what it’s like to be a young president. She talks about bringing your authentic self to work, managing people with more years of experience, and listening deeply to your colleagues.
1:02:30 - CI’s Dan Titmuss shares his favorite stories about clients in the news.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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(00:49):
Hi gang, it's Christopher Williams.
Over my 30+ years working in the arts,
I've had the enormous privilege ofcollaborating with so many remarkable
arts leaders and advocates.
And over the last decade I haveobserved a significant shift as a new
generation of inspiring anddetermined individuals begin
(01:11):
moving into leadership positions,
and they're challenging traditionalnotions about the management of cultural
organizations. So it got me thinking,
what does this new wave of arts leaderssee as the future of our industry?
And what can their fresh perspectivesteach us about leadership?
In today's episode, I'll sit down withthree individuals who, in my eyes,
(01:33):
represent this new generation ofarts leadership: bold, passionate,
and driven to move our industry forward.You'll hear from Rachel Hagemeier,
President and CEO of the CantonSymphony Orchestra; Monica Holt,
Senior Vice President of Artistic Planningand Production at the Kennedy Center
for the Performing Arts; andmy boss, CI's own President,
(01:54):
Priya Iyer Doshi. We'll talk about thegenerational shifts in leadership styles,
how they stay true to their creativevisions while navigating the complexities
of people management,
and the changes they hope to see intheir respective arts communities and the
industry at large.
Our conversations left me feeling soincredibly optimistic and excited for the
(02:15):
future of our field. So buckleup. It's going to be a good one.
Rachel Hagemeier, welcome to CI to Eye.
Thank you. Very excited to be here today.
So you have such an interestingstory and before we get to
(02:39):
what I feel like is theheadline of your story,
I would love for you to justtell us what drew you to the
arts as a young person.
So I grew up in the world of bluegrass.My dad's a bluegrass musician,
so I grew up with that allaround me all the time.
And when I was probably 10 or so,
(03:01):
I was at the Walnut ValleyBluegrass Festival in Winfield,
Kansas where I still go every year.
And there was a woman namedNicolasa Kuster who is a bassoonist.
And so she was jamming around a campfirewith everyone else playing bassoon at a
bluegrass festival. And I said,
"This is the coolest thing I've everseen," and told my dad I'm going to play
(03:21):
that. And he said, okay, sure. Hehad no idea what a bassoon was.
And so then I started playing musicand being a bassoonist and doing
all the youth symphony things andstarted attending orchestra and I got a
performance degree, but I never wantedto be a performer. I loved to play,
but I didn't want it to become my job.
(03:42):
And so that's where I really fell intoarts administration as a thing I wanted
to do.
So it's always been around me and I stilltry to play as much as I can and all
that good stuff, but it's a comfort.It's like a home space for me. So...
Yeah.
How did you decide that you didn'twant performance to be your job?
So I saw the people who made it happen.
(04:03):
I saw the executive director of my youthsymphony and all the hard work that he
was doing,
and I saw the people who were doing
ticket sales,
and just realizing how manypeople it takes to make the arts
happen.
And I think it's so fulfilling tobe able to make this stuff happen
(04:25):
and to think about thelongevity of the arts. I mean,
I want to be able to saythat by the end of my career,
I've impacted how orchestrasare going to be able to
survive in the future,
and think about it that way so that ouramazing musicians can continue to do
what they do.
One of my biggest hopes in my owncareer is to just have a world
(04:47):
where many more youngpeople know that there
is a career track and itsname is Arts Administration.
And perhaps we can both relate to thisin the same way that our exposure-I
identify as a Midwesterner,
being from southwest Missouri-andmy exposure to the arts is much
different than a lot ofpeople who I'm around today.
(05:10):
And I never knew that this wassomething that you could do for a
living.
Do you feel like that's still somethingwe have a lot of work to do in as an
industry?
Yes. Oh, for sure. In the past, I guess,
Covid years and nowthe couple years after,
a lot more programs have been appearing.
We've seen a lot more master's levelsprograms appearing that have the title
(05:33):
Arts Administration.
Now I think where we still have alot of work to do is that within
those programs, what are theactual skills that we're teaching?
What are the hard skillsthat we're teaching?
And I also think that theunderstanding of business
is, I think,
something that we still need to work onabout how important it is to understand
(05:54):
that arts organizations are abusiness and have a product,
and you might have nonprofit in yourtitle, but you have to make money.
Nonprofit is a tax status.
Yes, nonprofit is a tax status. Itis not the act of not making money.
It's so incredibly crucial.
And so working with our schools ofbusiness to really lift up the arts
(06:15):
through a nonprofit lens andunderstanding that, I think,
still has some work to be done. But it'slovely to see more programs popping up.
We need good arts professionals inthe field right now. We really do.
We really, really, really do.
You were promoted to CEO when you were25 years old, which is incredible.
(06:36):
And it made you the youngest CEOin Canton Symphony's history.
And my first reaction before Ieven ask my question is just like,
I am dying to sort of hearhow that happened because
in a lot of ways I'm like, wow,
who are the other leaders in theorganization and the board that made this
possible? I think it's awesome.
(06:57):
Yeah, that meme of Paul Rudd going,"Who would've thought? Look at us.
Who would've thought? Not me."For a long time I was like,
I have no business beinghere. What is going on?
I also felt that when I startedas Manager of Education, though.
They hired me right out of schooland I was so scared about my age
and was so... When Iwas 21, I was like, oh,
(07:20):
no one's going to take me seriously.
And then every colleague in the fieldwas like, why are you worried about this?
Maybe someone will make acomment, maybe someone will,
but that's not someone who's going tobe a good collaborator or colleague
anyway, so you do yourjob and see what happens.
And if it does become anissue, then we'll address it.
Don't assume it's going to be an issue.
(07:42):
And so I kind of had that feelingwhen I became CEO. I was still very
surprised at the whole thing. I didnot think it was going to happen,
but I was ready to do the next thing.
I had been Manager of Education andI was ready to do something else.
I felt like I'd reallylearned what I could do,
and I saw there was no way for meto move up at the Canton Symphony.
(08:03):
There's only so many people.
And there's not upward mobility.
So I was looking for jobsand I had a job offer and the
day I was going to tell our CEO at thetime that I was going to take that job,
she announced she was leavingthe same day. And I went,
okay, let's just take a beat really quick.
(08:27):
What hurt does it do tothrow my hat in the ring?
And so I went to our CEO and I said,
I would be interested in maybethrowing my hat in the ring for this
position. What's the timeline?What is the board thinking?
And she said to me verysurprisingly, well,
the board is thinking about makingyou interim. And I was like...
(08:49):
Wow.
...Really? Okay. I wasvery flattered by that.
I have good relationships withour board members. I knew them.
I guess the quality of my work had showedto them with what I'd been able to do
with the community engagementand educational programming.
And then I was a littlebit ballsy and I said,
I don't want to take somethingthat's not necessarily a guarantee.
(09:12):
I would love to take this position,but only if I'm not interim.
And they offered it to me and it wasvery surprising and I didn't quite know
what to do with it. And it was very,
very scary and I wasstressed out of my mind.
Being 25 at the time,
what was the biggestchallenge and what is also
(09:32):
the biggest benefit to youryouth at the time or even now?
So to my point earlier ofpeople bringing up my age now,
a lot of people, they're justsurprised that I'm young.
They're not put off by it. I havehad donors come up to me and say,
I was skeptical atfirst, but now I'm fine.
And I think it's just (09:52):
do your job. If you do your job and do it well,
the age thing is not going to bea big deal. It doesn't matter.
And so I think it servesme well because people see
the freshness.
A lot of people say the organizationfeels like it has a fresh perspective.
Our board is a fairly young board now.
(10:16):
We've brought on board members thatare close to my age and they feel
comfortable joining a board.Because I'm the leader,
it's less intimidating becausethere's someone their age.
So there's a lot ofpros and cons for sure.
Cons is that I don'thave as much experience,
and so I'm having to read a lot ofstuff and learn a lot of things,
(10:36):
but it's fun.
Yeah. Well, you mentioned this,you worked as-before being CEO,
you worked as the manager of educationand community engagement at the Canton
Symphony.
What was that transition like for youwhen you transitioned from sort of the day
to day weeds work and community engagementthat one does in a position like that
(10:57):
to your executive job now?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that we're asmall arts organization,
and so everyone is boots on the grounda lot of the time with everything.
The biggest shift for me wasthat it was hard for me to not
be the one doing everylittle thing all of the time.
(11:20):
And I think the biggest thingis to learn to trust your staff
and know that they knowwhat they're doing.
I think that I'm so incredibly lucky atthe Canton Symphony that we have a staff
where we've gotten to a place,it didn't happen overnight,
but we've gotten to a place where weknow how to communicate with each other.
I know that I can trustthem to do their jobs,
(11:40):
but I started working with aleadership coach who really helped me
understand you have yourway of operating as a human,
the way that you want to talk to people,
the way that you want tocommunicate with people,
and so does everyone else. And the bestthing that you can do as a manager is
take the time to get to know every singleemployee and what that means for them,
(12:03):
because you're going to have to shiftthe way you have a conversation about
failure depending on whichemployee you're talking to.
You can't talk about it in theway that necessarily you would.
And so it's very incrediblyhelpful to have those tools in your
toolbox. Suddenly people startedfeeling more comfortable to say,
I don't like it when you do this, or Ireally need you to help me with this.
(12:25):
Did you have a natural curiosity towant to make some of these changes?
Really realizing, oh,
I do need to understand how everyone ticksin order to iterate myself amongst my
staff. Did you come to thatnaturally or was that work for you?
Yes, and. I think that whenI first started as CEO,
I was so concernedabout a few things. One,
(12:47):
I needed to get people to buy into meas a leader as fast as humanly possible.
I'm the youngest person in theoffice. I know what I'm doing.
I need to convince them thatI do know what I'm doing,
but I don't know everything.
And I need to be able to assert myself as
a boss and as someone with a vision,
but also so that when Iask questions, it's not,
(13:11):
it's because of curiosity andwanting to be better at my own job.
And so I really quickly wantedto get to know the staff.
I wanted the staff to feelsafe at the organization.
And then we had a rough spring of 2023.
Lots of change. People wereangry, they were stressed,
(13:33):
they were burnt out. The schedulewas just back-to-back concerts.
Everyone was burnt out. AndI was like, this is bad.
I have to figure out something.
And so I kind of wasforced into realizing, oh,
you need to be way moreintentional with this.
You can't just assume that because youknew these people before you were their
boss, that you know them now. Therelationship is very different,
(13:56):
and you need to get to knowthem on a how they tick,
how they need to be managed,how do they like to communicate?
You need to get to know themat that level. It's not easy,
but it definitely is worth it when you'reable to really rally a team together
at the end.
Yeah, I couldn't agreemore. I couldn't agree more.
Have you had a situationwhere you feel convicted about
(14:19):
something or the way you have culturallydecided to handle it or decided through
your own values to handle it, and inthose moments, the world is saying, "No,
Rachel,
we do it this way" and you haveto sort of push-pull in those
moments and decide,
am I going to traverse my own values anddo it their way or am I going to stick
(14:39):
to my guns? And then feltvery conflicted after that?
Yeah. Oh, so many.
I figured.
I got so much adviceabout how to be a CEO.
That's exactly what Iwanted you to answer.
And so much of it was really good advice.A lot of really, really good advice.
And some of it, I got it and I went, what?
(15:04):
Are you kidding me?That's how we do things?
And it was everything I didn't want frommy boss that they were telling me to
do.
I got a piece of advice that said,
and there's a bit of truth inthis, but there's a big old caveat,
where you can't be friendswith your employees.
Oh God, yes. This is a classic one.
You can't be friends with your employees.
(15:26):
And what they mean is you need to
be able to create definedand agreed upon lines of
professionalism while at workthat if they need to come down,
everyone understands why they're comingdown and that we've shifted into a
different mode. That's what that means.
(15:47):
That doesn't mean you can't befriends with your employees.
I'm very much friends with my employees.
Nuance.
We go to karaoke often,
but my relationship is differentwith them because I do need to
have a wall up so that if Ineed to make a hard decision,
I make the hard decision.
But understanding that is so key.And when I got that piece of advice,
(16:11):
I was shocked. And then I didn'tknow how to actually deal with it,
and the lines were blurred,
and it got really messy and Ialmost became not friends with my
employees because of it.And so that was a really interesting
one to navigate. I had to stumbleinto figuring out what to do there.
Union negotiations were reallyweird. A lot of people said,
(16:34):
don't show the finances tothe musicians. Don't do it.
Don't show the finances to the musicians.
Then they're going to ask too manyquestions. They're going to know too much.
They're going to ask toomuch of you. I was like,
that feels really counterintuitive. Ifeel like if they knew the finances,
then they would understand whyI can't give them that thing.
I would be able to explain it to themand they would be in it with me and
(16:56):
understand, this is where we're really at.
So I brought our auditor in and ourauditor went through the entire financial
audit with them, and at the end, theychanged so much of what they asked for,
and I was like...
But I held off doing that for ninemonths of negotiations. And I'm like,
if I'd just done that from the beginning,
we would've gotten somewhere so muchquicker. And now it's like, okay,
(17:19):
now we're here. So yes,all the time. All the time.
And it's really hard to know whenmaybe your conviction is a little
misplaced and you need toreevaluate it versus when the
gut is right, the systemis wrong. It's tricky.
The gut's the key, right?
It is the key.
Your gut is almost always going tolead you to the right decisions.
(17:41):
I think leaders often learn that.
You make the decision you think you'resupposed to make and your gut is flipping
over and going inside out,
and then you realize six months laterit was the wrong choice and you're like,
I should have listened to my gut. So,
think about the other managersof education and outreach who are out there right
(18:02):
now. And thinking about those folks whowant to move into leadership positions,
what would you say to them?
Yeah,
I think that this is a field thatyou have so much room to play
with, and there's so many differentthings happening in the field of arts
administration and honestly,
our field right now needs younger people,
(18:23):
needs younger people to come in withall these fresh ideas and to think
about things differently. So getto know your local orchestra.
Go talk to those people, doan informational interview. They'll be so excited.
Oh my gosh. They'll be so excited thatsomeone wants to know about their job.
They will. Go shadow for a day.Just get to know the organization.
(18:46):
I did tons of informationalinterviews. It was my favorite.
I just called people andtalk to them. I still do it.
I love them! People love to do them.
I still do. And people love it. Oh,people love talking about themselves.
People love it. I lovetalking to young people.
I've convinced now threepeople to go into arts
administration. We're trying to tickit up higher, but we're working on it.
(19:06):
We're working on it.
Okay. Rachel, you have reachedwhat we call the CI to Eye moment.
If you could broadcast onemessage to executive directors,
leadership teams, staff, and boardsof a thousand arts organizations,
what would it be?
Thank you for all the work that youdo. This is a really hard field.
(19:29):
Being a CEO can be incredibly lonely.
So boards (19:34):
look after your CEOs. They need the support.
And the more verbal youare with it, the better.
And with that,
verbally celebrating the factthat we get to do what we do.
We're very lucky that weget to make art happen.
(19:54):
We are very lucky that we get towitness amazing creators all the time
and to remind ourselvesthat when it is really hard,
when we look at the field and we're like,
the funding is goingaway. All of the grants,
we don't even qualify for them anymore.
All the United Arts funds aredisappearing. What are we going to do?
(20:15):
Art is resilient, and we are resilient,
and we will come up with ways tonavigate this if we remind ourselves and
celebrate each otherand lift each other up.
Because the more we celebratepublicly and say things out loud,
the more communities are going towant to be a part of that celebration,
want to be a part of thisamazing stuff we've got going on.
(20:37):
And it's hard work andthanks for doing it with us.
Well, Rachel, I am a fan.
This has been such anenjoyable time spent for me.
I cannot wait to see what you do for thefield over the course of your career.
And I thank you so much forspending time with us today.
Thank you. This was wonderful. I am sohappy to talk about this topic. And yeah,
(20:59):
it's been a really fun littleafternoon here with you guys.
Monica Holt, welcome andwelcome back to CI to Eye.
Thank you so much. I'm happyto be back. It's been a minute.
Monica, we're aging.
I think the last time you wereon the podcast was 2017, right?
(21:22):
I was just a young lady trying tomake her way in the wild streets
of nonprofit arts administration.
I too was a young lady. Well,
this episode is all about leadership,
but before we get into that, for peoplewho maybe don't know who you are,
can you start by just talking about whatbrought you to the arts in the first
(21:45):
place?
Oh, sure.
I am very lucky and fortunate to havegrown up in a household where the
arts were part of every day.Music, going to shows in D.C. ...
I grew up just outside ofD.C. so even in my youth,
I was going to shows atall of the local theaters.
So I was very fortunate to have afamily that was entrenched in the arts,
(22:08):
and that was with me thewhole time as I grew up.
And I think I didn't really understandwhat a career in the arts meant outside
of being a performer untilpretty late in college.
And at that point I realized I hadkind of always been on this marketing,
advertising, branding trackin school. Ultimately,
I ended up looking at mostly marketingand branding jobs and internships.
(22:30):
And at Washington National Opera,
I was able to get an internship there,
and then my first professionalcareer position, I would say,
as New Media Coordinator.
And ultimately it was the right timingthat led me to Washington National Opera
because the KennedyCenter affiliated in 2011.
So I was brought over ontothe marketing team here.
(22:52):
And so that accelerated my journeyto a larger performing arts center.
I'm going to go back to this ideathat there are hundreds of us,
thousands of us,
who have been band geeks or choirgeeks or theater geeks in high school.
Maybe you're not the most talented person,
so you're not going toactually act or sing or play,
but how can you stillparticipate in the arts as a
(23:15):
career?
And I still think and believe stronglythat we don't do a good job of helping
people understand you can takethat interest and that actually can
be an administrative career for youthat's quite stable and quite rewarding.
Do you feel like we stillhave work to do there?
I completely agree.
There are so many components and pieces,
(23:38):
both desk jobs and labor positions,
that contribute to what brings them joyand entertainment when they see it on
stage or on screen.
And it's so important to see some of theseprojects and goals of what's possible
because we're missing a lot ofimagination and a lot of thought in
our space for folks who just don'teven know these positions exist.
(24:01):
And I think it's a little more-probablybecoming more legible on the marketing
side, but we have a robust financeteam at the Kennedy Center,
and our VP of FinancialPlanning has played piano her
entire life. And that'swhat led her here is,
it was her professionalskillset and her personal
(24:21):
passions, interests. And I don'tthink we show those stories.
Yeah, it's a topic Ifeel very strongly about,
and I think those of us who arehere need to get our megaphones
out and do some labor.
And sometimes I feel proudof the progress that happens,
but I then feel like it's restrictedonly to very expensive degree
(24:44):
programs. And I don'tthink that's-in fact,
I'm evidence that that'snot the only way in.
And I just feel very strongly that wehave to give more voice to that. Anyway,
jumping back to where you sort of endedyour story about how you got to the
arts. First of all,
tell everyone what you dotoday at the Kennedy Center.
Sure.
(25:05):
I work as the Senior Vice President ofArtistic Planning and Production at the
Kennedy Center. So that is the role today,
but obviously very differentthan where I started.
And so for people who don'tknow you and are listening,
one of the reasons why I wanted you totalk about what you do now is because
that journey is just, it's veryuncommon and so interesting.
(25:28):
And there's a couple of thingsthat I think are notable.
One is just making the jump from marketingto the programming side is fairly
unusual in our industry.
What I think is also uncommon aboutyour journey for your generation,
not to stereotype a generation,
is that you have spent all of thistime inside of one organization,
(25:48):
and that's pretty unusual these days.
So can we start there and hear how youmade the hard decisions maybe over the
years to take different positions withinthe Kennedy Center and actually stay
there, which I think is amazing.
Yes, it is.
I think I have now officially outlastedall of my friends from college
(26:09):
in the career game of who can stay attheir first place of employment the
longest. So,
going back a beat to WashingtonNational Opera... So my role there,
I was New Media Coordinator.
And having the word 'new' in your title,
it gave me a lot of freedomand grace as to how I wanted to
(26:31):
accomplish the goals thatwere being set for me.
That was a very empowering experience,
not just in my confidence,
but also in confirming the importance of
taking on new challenges andeducating yourself to try something
new if you think it is something thatwill be important to you on your career
(26:52):
path. So the KennedyCenter affiliated in 2011,
so I was brought over onto the marketingteam here. And then from there,
the first decision that I had to makecareer-wise was as some roles opened up on
the marketing strategy side asopposed to the advertising side,
deciding if that was the right opportunityto seize. And the way I saw it was,
(27:12):
yes, it was certainly an opportunityto grow in my career, but again,
it was also a newskillset for me to learn.
And over time, thedepartment changed a bit,
our organizationalleadership was changing,
and I ended up in a role as the directorof marketing for the center at a
time when we needed to be buildingout more of a marketing team.
(27:35):
And when I had moved into the manager
role, the first year was the firsttime I had ever hired anyone,
and we were kind of both ontraining wheels at the same time.
In the way that I talk about it, shewas learning how to do her first job.
I was learning how to manage someone.
This is such a goodpoint for me to ask you,
(27:56):
what were the questions you were askingyourself about what does it mean to be a
manager, not just of an area,
but also now I have tobe a manager of a person?
Because I think I now witness anewer generation of individuals who
really feel hesitant to want to do that.
And I'm trying to do this podcastseries in a way to say, you know what?
(28:19):
None of us really knew the answerseither. So what were you thinking?
No, none of us knew the answers.
Right? You learn it.
None of us knew the answers. I was,again, excited for a challenge,
but also terrifiedbecause it's not just the
responsibility and a drive tobe successful, but it's also,
it's another human being,right? It's another heartbeat.
(28:42):
And I think if we all takea beat and think, okay,
at the end of a tough day at work,
if you go home and talk to your partneror a friend or a parent on the phone,
you're going to be talking aboutsome of the characters you work with.
And probably at some point over thecourse of a week, a month, a year,
(29:02):
you're going to betalking about your boss.
Who do you want to be in those stories?You can't be the hero all the time.
And to be honest, you alsohave to make peace with,
even if you do everything that is alignedwith your values and what you feel a
leader should be accomplishingin a role as a manager,
you might still be the villain.
And you have to be ableto let go of control.
(29:26):
Because you don't have it.
A hundred percent.
And it's not your right tohave any control over that,
but you have to be ableto go home at night,
acknowledge that you mighthave an outsized impact on an individual or group of
individuals' days, weeks, months, years,
and be able to make peace with yourself.
And I think that is whatterrified me about it.
(29:49):
The other thing that I could haveused more of is leaders willing
to talk about their struggles.
A hundred percent.
And their excitement.
And sometimes it feels like we've gottenso fixed on what makes a good leader,
that we're not having the conversationabout all of the questions and doubts
and experiences that leaders are havingthat might be uncomfortable to share
(30:13):
because it's not necessarilythe most beautiful reflection.
The compounding value of makingmistakes and learning from 'em.
And I think the sharing ofthose mistakes is so key to
helping a newer generation offolks go like, okay, great.
They screwed it up. Iprobably will screw it up.
That makes this feel a little bit moreaccessible to me. But to your point,
(30:34):
talking about what is amazing aboutleading a group of people and the
feelings you get when you watch peoplegrow exponentially and even depart your
organization and go on to doother amazing things... Like, god,
is there anything betterthan that feeling?
Yeah, I feel so strongly about that.
And the ability to watch thepeople around you grow and
(30:59):
rise is what can makeleadership so rewarding.
The leaders I am most admiring of,
understand that they are playing a longgame and understand that they might not
be there at the finish line.I think it also depends on the situation.
So at that time, building a team,
I will say I did have moreinstant gratification than not.
(31:21):
But I think transitioningfrom that group that was
really in a quickly growing postureto the role that I'm in now,
which is more about howare you evolving together?
It's very different and theexcitement is different,
the challenges are different.
And in the spirit of sharingstruggles and excitement,
(31:44):
I think when you watch a teamthat then also has their own teams
that they work with and avery distinct portfolio,
to then be trying to operatebetween all of those teams,
it can feel more isolating than Iwas expecting, particularly at first.
Yeah,
I think a lot of leaders wouldsay you ultimately end up sitting
(32:07):
kind of alone in those spaces.And for a lot of people,
no one ever said that. That wasa surprise. In a lot of ways,
when you are part of a greaterensemble in your organization,
that community can be suchan awesome experience,
but at a certain point youdo give some of that up
(32:30):
in order to wear the crown andprovide leadership in a different way.
And I think a lot of people get surprised.
And it's being responsiblefor the decision that
might not be everyone's favoritechoice in the short term.
And there are moments whereyou have to reckon with
(32:50):
the fact that it's on you, and it's notsomething that is a decision by jury.
And I'm someone who loves toget input and ask advice and
dialogue on so many things,
and sometimes it's on you to make surethat you have gotten the information you
need, but then to ultimately...
You have to decide and be accountable.
...Make a choice andbe accountable for it.
(33:13):
And I think one thing that has reallystruck me is this idea of are you making
bets or are you making investments?
I think that is such a succinctway of demonstrating the
fork in the road that a lot of peoplefind themselves in in any job but
particularly in leadership roles.
(33:33):
Am I going to make a decision based on the
pressures of the moment thatmight have a short-term impact,
or am I going to make adecision that might be harder,
that might require more resources upfront,
because I am looking at thelong-term trajectory of the division,
the organization, or the field?
(33:56):
There are a lot of bets that would bereally fun to take, but when I look back,
when I am beyond this career,
I want to feel like I havemade decisions that have led
the organization to be in a betterplace than it was than when I was in it.
And so that in 10 or 20 years,
(34:16):
the organization is having a greaterimpact because of some seeds that I was
able to plant when I was there.
It is sort of said that 10% of people
are born to lead, 20% can learn it,
and the rest of us justshouldn't do it at all.
(34:37):
My snap judgment about you, whichI've made many, many, many years ago,
is that you were born forthis. I'll tell you why.
I've always felt that whenI spend time with you,
I feel very safe and I feel unique
and that you see me andconnect really deeply with me.
And in my mind I'm alwayslike, oh, that's an us thing.
(35:01):
And then when I was prepping forthis podcast, I was like, oh,
you know what? That might be howeveryone feels when they work with her.
That might be a unique thing that shedoes as a leader that maybe a lot of
people feel that.
That is a very kind andgenerous thing for you to share.
(35:22):
Respectfully, I'm not sure.
I expected a response like that.
I'm not sure I agree that people are born
to or can be educated to or are not
able to become leaders...for a few reasons.
(35:43):
One is that leadership isabout context, ultimately.
I could have a leadershipapproach here that when I go
three blocks down the road in D.C.everyone's like, what are you doing?
So one is just the context ofit. Leadership isn't a monolith.
So what do we really mean when we saysomeone's born to be a leader? And then,
(36:06):
is everyone given not just the tools or
opportunity to discover whetherthey might be a good leader,
but is everyone empoweredand encouraged and trusted
to believe that they can be?
I think anyone who shows a willingnessor an interest in learning about
(36:26):
leadership can become a good leader.
I think that to me isthe barrier for entry.
So that was a really long-windedway of saying thank you.
And also I disagree with it.
It's very wise. I like it.We talked about this earlier.
It feels like external factors onus would say it's important for
(36:49):
my career to leave andgo do something else.
It won't look good on paper.
Have you had to answer thosequestions for yourself?
Absolutely.
I would say frequently it'ssomething that I think about.
And I think the things thathave kept me here are, one,
(37:11):
a true belief in the center'smission and ability to deliver
on its mission,
a love of what we are growing
and building here. And that changesevery few years, to be frank.
I'm not staying here now for the samereasons I was staying here seven years
ago. I think that's important.
(37:32):
It's a refreshed commitmentand responsibility,
and I really enjoy thepeople that I work with here.
Even in moments ofdisagreement, there is kindness.
And even when we are disagreeing,
I still believe that everyone'sperspective is coming from a place of
believing it is the right thing forthe institution and the people it is
(37:56):
serving. That feels like something thatI want to hold onto and keep uplifting.
And most of all,
I believe that arts are acritical part of everyone's life.
We know there is data and science thatproves the importance of arts, culture,
humanities, and people's mentalhealth and physical wellbeing,
(38:16):
and how wonderful to workfor an organization that also
believes in that and wants tomake arts available to every
person in the countryand around the world.
Great.
Picture young people who have chosen to
work in the arts,
(38:36):
specifically the folks thatare maybe not in the best
circumstances,
maybe they're in an arts organizationthat is struggling financially which is
not a small number thesedays. What do you say
to all young people,
but specifically the people whoare listening this podcast who are
clinging to information thatwill help them stay the course?
(39:00):
So you can pretty quicklyspin yourself out thinking,
what am I going to do next?Why isn't this person doing Y?
Why isn't that person doing X?
And how is this organization ever goingto move into the future if... if... if?
But I think you need to give yourselfthe grace to focus on building the best
version of yourself in thisspace because only someone who is
(39:22):
cemented in their values andcemented in their ability
to be continuously learning andcontributing can then really start
to move forward and make change inthe space with others over time.
But if you have a belief inthis field and it's feeling
hopeless, then take a minuteto recenter on yourself first.
(39:46):
That's great advice. Okay. We'vereached your CI to Eye moment.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
staff, and boards of athousand arts organizations,
what would it be?
I think it would be a call toaction or a call to participation
(40:07):
for how we reinvent the businessmodel with the focus being
that leadership's role is to betaking care of the staff of that
organization.
And I think sometimes it's easyto skip that piece and say,
leadership's role is to make sure thatwe are presenting the best artists on our
stages or having the mostinclusive spaces in the
(40:32):
country on our site. Thatis the organization's goal.
How is leadership empowering anduplifting the staff that needs to
deliver on that mission?
And I think what the readingbetween the lines there is has
to do with staffing,resourcing, and compensation.
(40:52):
And I think that our industry was builtin a way that a lot of nonprofits are,
on the hopes and dreams andbeliefs of their youngest staff
carrying them through acompensation scheme that
was never meant to be on equalfooting to the corporate world.
(41:12):
And I think we're going to see moreand more over time that grace and
belief in mission, vision,
and values isn't goingto overcome the need for
resources. It's not the sexiest call toaction, but it's what I think we need.
I love it. I consider myselfcalled to action. Monica Holt...
Let's do it.
Thank so much for being here.
(41:34):
Thank you, Christopher. Thank you CI!
Hi, Priya.
Hi, Christopher.
Welcome back to the pod.
Oh my god, thanks. It'snice to be on this side.
I can't say the standardsort of welcome to CI to Eye.
(41:57):
You've been here severaltimes and kind of live here.
Yeah, I live here inside of CI to Eye.
So for people who...
I think a lot of people havehad some exposure to your story,
but before we get intotalking about leadership,
tell me again for thecheap seats in the back,
how did you get here to the arts?
(42:18):
Yeah. No,
the arts have been just such a hugepart of my life from such a young age.
I grew up dancing classicalSouth Indian dance,
and I also grew up dancing moreon the Western side of things.
So ballet, tap, jazz, modern.
I was very interested in the dance world,
(42:40):
and that was just a big partof my intro to the arts.
And I grew up singing too.
And so I sort of moved my way intoWestern singing as well, as I grew up,
as I went into elementary and middleschool and people around me were not
participating in SouthIndian classical art forms,
but they were participatingin musical theater.
And so I found my way thereand went to school for musical
(43:04):
theater, and I thought I wanted tobe a star on the Broadway stage.
But halfway through college,
I sort of realized that thelife of a musical theater
performer probably was notgoing to be satisfying for me,
so I pivoted. But I knew that Iwanted to stay in the arts because
(43:26):
I really felt like art is auniversal way to connect with people,
and I wanted to be a part of makingthat a bigger impact in the world.
So that's how I found my way to theadministrative side and then the marketing
side of the arts. So I started my careeron Broadway, but on the marketing side.
(43:47):
In those first years, it really didfeel like I was living the dream.
I went to the Tony Awards, and Iwas at a Broadway opening night,
and it was just so sparkly andso exciting. Then over time,
I started to feel like, okay,
Broadway is very focused on the showthat's going to make the most amount of
money,
and I came here to find storiesthat were important that
(44:08):
could have an impact on people's lives,
and I wanted to find workthat could support more of that. So that's how I found
the nonprofit side, and that'sactually how I found Capacity.
And I made my way in, andthat was back in 2016.
And then sort of out of nowhere,
a job offer from SanDiego showed up in my lap.
And I'm a big believer insigns from the universe,
(44:30):
and I wondered if maybe the universewas telling me I needed to try something
new.
And that was also sort of a testto see do I need the arts to be in
my career? The test failed.
I do need the arts to be in my career.
And so while I was sort of having thosethoughts and wondering what I might do
with them,
(44:50):
Mr. Erik Gensler gave me acall and asked me to come back,
and we all took a leap of faith.And three years later, here we are.
Here we are.
I know, it's crazy. It's crazy.
When you knew that perhaps being aperformer on the Broadway was not
necessarily in the cards for you,
(45:12):
how were you aware that there was anadministrative path that you could
take?
Did someone within the universitysystem make you aware of that?
Were you always aware that thatwas a choice you could make?
I definitely was not always aware,but I did go to a theater school,
so I went to Ithaca College andI was in the musical theater
(45:34):
track,
but I was surrounded by people who werein different theater-related tracks.
And some of them I knew about,
some of them were much more of thecostume side or the prop side of things or
lighting.
Those pieces I felt closer to becausethose were closer physically to the stage.
But that was the first time that Ireally got exposed to company management,
(45:58):
general management, the actualbusiness side, marketing,
development, all of those pieces. So yeah,
I think I got lucky that that exposurewas all around me once I got to college.
But before that, not on my radar at all.
I'm so eager to still continue toshine so much light on this subject.
(46:19):
And I still think it's soimportant that we tell people,
young people, that thisis a path you can take.
And it's an important one because it'shard for performers to stand on a stage
or for art to hang on the walls ofa museum without an administrative
staff selling tickets,raising money, et cetera.
(46:39):
It all works together.
Listeners may or may notknow, Priya is my boss,
and so as we continue tolet our conversation unfold,
I just want everyone to have fullperspective into our conversation.
Priya,
are you willing to let listeners havesome idea of where you sit generationally?
(47:01):
Oh, sure. Yes. I am 33 years old,
so I sit squarely in the millennialgeneration. Go millennials.
Thank you for sharing that. Again,
the point of this particular episodeis to really shine a very bright
light on this crop of amazingindividuals who are sitting in
leadership roles in arts organizationswho are not Gen X or Boomer or Silent
(47:26):
Generation. No shade on any of thosepeople. I am in one of those groups.
But it's so exciting to me in my career,
which is now in its fourth decade,
it is so exciting to see new leadershipstyles and different ways that
people are doing things.So tell me two things.
What were the things that greatleaders did that you were like, ah,
(47:51):
damn, when I'm in the chair,I'm going to do it like that,
or take on that component ofthat person. And then conversely,
what were the things that yousaw that you were like, hell no,
not going to happen on my watch.
Okay, so great leaders listen.
I feel very deeply for thisone because I think when
(48:12):
you're a brand new person to theworkforce and you have a leader
who is invested inlistening to the experience
that you're having and allowingtheir support, management,
guidance to be driven bywhat they're hearing from
you, it makes all thedifference in the world.
(48:35):
I think on the flip side,
what I've watched happen that then Ididn't want to do is I've watched new
managers-for the sake ofperfectionism or hyper
achievement-micromanage or only accept
one approach of doing things.
And we are all human beings withall of these different component
(48:58):
parts inside us.
And I think replicating somethingin a one-to-one way when it's a
completely different personnow executing the work is an
unrealistic expectation.
And to be on the receivingend can be so incredibly
demoralizing,
and I think it makes you feellike the strengths that maybe you
(49:22):
once had confidence inare no longer applicable.
So I think that can becomea really dangerous cycle.
A hundred percent. When Ilisten to you talk about that,
one of the things that Iimmediately think of is
just-especially in the arts, whichis still so predominantly white,
which is a big problem for us-part of...
(49:45):
I'm air quoting forpeople who can't see me...
Part of doing things the right wayor the way it's always been done
has also meant doingthings the "white way."
I know you have a lot to say about that,
and I know that I have learned a lotfrom you about this and still continue to
do so, but I think it'ssuch an important topic.
Yeah,
(50:05):
I think the thing that's hardabout this is that it doesn't
necessarily take somebodyexplicitly saying,
you have to present like this,
or you have to show uplike this on a client call.
It doesn't take just thoseexplicit statements for somebody
(50:26):
to read between thelines and pick up on what
it means to be successfulin a certain place at a
certain time. And I think for me,
when I joined Capacity, and even now,
it's a predominantly white team,
(50:47):
and I was taking my cues from more
senior people around me, all ofwhom were predominantly white.
And I think it can feel alienating,
but without anybody saying "yourauthentic self needs to sound like that."
Without anybody saying any of that. Itwas things that were as simple as...
(51:08):
I remember super early on,
I was on a call with a client andthe client mispronounced my name,
and I sort of went to correct it,
but the person leading the call justsort of moved forward with the call. So
then I was like, okay, let's moveforward the call. No big deal.
And then that call was an hour longand throughout the entire call,
(51:30):
my name was mispronounced.Yeah, I was PRY-uh. Yeah. And
once you get past the first five minutes,it's too late. What am I going to say?
Hey, by the way, 55 minutes agoyou said my name was Pry-uh,
and you've been saying itsubsequently that way since,
and I now 55 minutes into the callI'm going to correct you. It's like,
(51:52):
oh god. So I just didn't,
but I think I also just watchedthe other people in the room not,
and
those types of things then becomeadditional disruptions that we have to
work through in an officesetting of any type.
(52:13):
And so I think that's whattakes me back to this idea that
representation matters,
not just because you want to seeother people who are successful,
who look like you,
but also because all of these littlethings that happen throughout the day
when the room is more diverse,those things become more normalized.
(52:33):
So then I don't have tothink twice about, "Actually,
can I just interrupt you? I just wantto make it clear it's pronounced Priya,
because if I don't tell younow, I can't tell you ever."
So anyway...
What would you say tosay to the average 24 or
(52:54):
25-year-old who is sitting in theirfirst or second more junior role
inside of an arts organization,
which is unfortunately likely very white.
What would you say to those folks whoare listening to that story and they're
like, "Yep.".
I will first say that you mightnot wake up every day wanting to
(53:14):
do what I'm going to suggestthat you do, and that's okay.
It feels like a great deal ofresponsibility to represent something not only for
yourself, but for all ofthose who come behind you,
and some days that just feelsincredibly exhausting, and that is okay.
But what I would say in that is thatI think it's easy to make a lot of
assumptions, as I did, about whatthe definition of success is.
(53:38):
And I would urge people to askmore specific questions about the
expectation and definition ofsuccess instead of solely relying
on context clues in an environmentthat perhaps has not historically
had people like you in it or peoplelike you in great volumes in it.
(53:58):
I would venture to say thatsometimes when you ask the direct
question, the answer is actuallythe opposite of the assumption,
but you never know until youask. I wish I had just asked,
"Hey,
would it have been okay forme or you to interrupt the
client and let them knowthat that happened?".
(54:22):
God,
isn't asking questions just such auniversal solution to so many of our
problems? You and I justhad a conversation about asking questions yesterday.
Yes, we did.
This is a thing that not only can behelpful to you in the beginning of your
career, it's maybe even moreimportant as you get further on.
And you do not have to know.In fact, often you do not know.
(54:47):
Yeah, a thousand percent.A thousand percent.
I'm writing that on aPost-It note for myself.
I know.
So you were on a podcastepisode on CI to Eye
in 2022 when you firstcame back to Capacity to be
our President,
and on that episode youspecifically talked about
(55:09):
ruinous empathy. Whereare we now on the journey?
Yeah, yeah.
So ruinous empathy comesfrom this concept of
radical candor, which is theidea that if you care personally,
you can challenge directly.
And ruinous empathyessentially is that you care
(55:31):
personally and are unableto challenge directly.
You care too personally to beable to challenge directly.
So super early in my time here,
and a big part of cominginto the role was managing
people who had previouslyessentially managed me.
(55:52):
I'm looking at one of them right nowin the face, Mr. Christopher Williams.
And so I think as I came in early on,
I had spent a lot of time onthe care personally piece,
and I wanted to do a lot of listening,especially with the leadership team,
to sort of understand the lay of the land.
Many people on our leadership teamhave been here for 10 years plus at
(56:13):
this point.
And so I really wanted tolisten and understand what each
person was feelingabout the now, the past,
what they're hopeful for in thefuture, those types of things.
But I think that I early on didn'tfeel like I had the right to
challenge directly. But now havingspent more time in the role,
(56:36):
having understood the business more,
having worked alongside this team more,
we're all collectively workingtowards the same thing, right?
We're all just doing our part,working towards the same thing.
And when I was able tointernalize that shared
goal, it became more aboutif the feedback's not given,
(56:59):
then there isn't an opportunity for usto get to that goal in the same way.
It remains a barrier.
This sort of topic generallycame up with the other
two guests in the episode.
This idea that folkswho make their way into
upper leadership positionsearlier in their careers will
(57:23):
find themselves having to manage
individuals not only whoare younger than they are,
but [it's] harder managingthose who may have
multiple decades on them.And that's also true for you.
What would you say to folks who arelistening to this about what that journey
(57:46):
is like and what you've learned,or what you're still learning?
One thing that I've learned is thatthe experience of others does not
negate the experienceand expertise of myself.
I think I used to think of it that way.
I'll use you as an example becauseyou're sitting right here. It's been,
(58:06):
did you say, four decades?
I'm in the fourth.
Yeah, there you go. In the workforce.
I am not in the fourthdecade in the workforce,
but that doesn't mean that if I havea piece of feedback for you or if
we are collaborating,
it doesn't mean that mydecades mean nothing to you,
and that my perspectivemeans nothing to you.
(58:29):
And it took me a littlewhile to internalize that,
but so long as we can still have the
level of caring personally,and the closeness,
and the ability to challenge directlyand have these big picture strategic
conversations... And for me, we'reall just humans at the end of the day,
working together. And agedoesn't really change that.
(58:53):
Every stage of your life,that's all you're doing.
You're just a human beingdoing the best that you can,
which I think universalizes it.
Yeah,
I sort of envision rightnow the sort of archetype
of an arts admin,
someone who is so happy to be at theirarts organization and is working really
(59:14):
hard because that'swhat we do in the arts,
and maybe they see theirexecutive director or artistic director walking up and
down the hallway and they think tothemselves, that's the job I want to do.
So as a young leader in the arts,
what have you seen or what do you see asthe biggest challenge to being a young
leader in the arts? And conversely,what's a really big benefit?
(59:37):
Yeah. Well, I think that thechallenge, I just touched on.
You cannot control how otherpeople assign or don't assign
value to age. You just can't.
But what can be hard is tonot let that knock me off
balance a little bit.
To not let the voices in my headshow up and sort of say like, "Yeah,
(01:00:00):
you are so young. What are you doing?What are you doing in this meeting?
Why are you the one here doingthis?" But I also think that
it sometimes means that we trynew things and we take some
different risks,
and the perspective isinformed by the future.
Right now,
(01:00:21):
I'm considered a young president,
but not too long from now, it'sgoing to just all be my generation.
And the way of theworkplace is shifting and
the audiences coming into artsand cultural institutions,
those are shifting.And in some ways I feel like I have an
(01:00:44):
edge because I'm here now.
I have the power that I havethat comes with this seat and
I can offer a perspectivethat does also inform
where things are going to go and itmight seem like we're not quite there
yet, or it's kind of newor it's kind of green,
or "you've got to learn that that's notgoing to work for yourself." Those are
(01:01:07):
the types of things that I mighthear, but that's not always true.
And oftentimes the spaghetti does stickto the wall and we get to try something
new and my fresh perspectiveallows some of that to happen
and that is the benefit.
Shall we do a CI to Eye momentwithin the context of this topic?
(01:01:27):
Sure.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
staff, and boards of a thousand artsorganizations, what would it be?
It would be that the importanceof listening cannot be
understated,
and I really do believethat part of why the arts
(01:01:47):
are so powerful is because they offer the
opportunity to see new, different,
diverse stories show up in front of us.
And as we listen more,
we build empathy and openness to what that
then can allow us to do andcan allow future leaders to do.
(01:02:09):
So the power of listeningcannot be understated.
Well said. You're aninspiration to me, Priya,
and I'm sure to otherslistening to this episode.
Thank you, Christopher.
Thanks, boss. We'll seeyou back at our desks.
Okay, sounds great.
Bye.
Bye.
(01:02:33):
Hello everyone, it's me, Dan here,
back with another round ofCI-lebrity Sightings. CI...
'lebrity... like celebrity.I'll stop explaining it.
Here are some of our favorite news storiesfeaturing CI clients in 60 seconds or
less. First up,
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra'smusic director Nathalie Stutzmann was featured on
WSBTV for making history asonly the second woman to lead a
(01:02:57):
major American orchestra.Way to go, Nathalie! Next,
Ballet BC just receivedthe largest donation in its
37-year history,
which according to Stir Magazine willgo toward full-year contracts and salary
increases for its dancers. And finally,
a number of our friends in the BayArea were mentioned in the New York
(01:03:19):
Times-heard of it?-in an articleentitled "San Francisco's Arts
Institutions Are Slowly Building Back,"which name drops American Conservatory
Theater, San Francisco Opera, SanFrancisco Symphony, and SF MoMA.
We're so proud of these clients for theirlandmark accomplishments and tireless
commitments to movingtheir art forms forward.
(01:03:40):
Got a story that deserves a shout out?Well, tag us on social and let us know.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
(01:04:02):
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
(01:04:23):
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and TikTok for regular contentto help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacityinteractive.com so you never
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(01:04:44):
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(00:49):
Hi gang, it's Christopher Williams.
Over my 30+ years working in the arts,
I've had the enormous privilege ofcollaborating with so many remarkable
arts leaders and advocates.
And over the last decade I haveobserved a significant shift as a new
generation of inspiring anddetermined individuals begin
(01:11):
moving into leadership positions,
and they're challenging traditionalnotions about the management of cultural
organizations. So it got me thinking,
what does this new wave of arts leaderssee as the future of our industry?
And what can their fresh perspectivesteach us about leadership?
In today's episode, I'll sit down withthree individuals who, in my eyes,
(01:33):
represent this new generation ofarts leadership: bold, passionate,
and driven to move our industry forward.You'll hear from Rachel Hagemeier,
President and CEO of the CantonSymphony Orchestra; Monica Holt,
Senior Vice President of Artistic Planningand Production at the Kennedy Center
for the Performing Arts; andmy boss, CI's own President,
(01:54):
Priya Iyer Doshi. We'll talk about thegenerational shifts in leadership styles,
how they stay true to their creativevisions while navigating the complexities
of people management,
and the changes they hope to see intheir respective arts communities and the
industry at large.
Our conversations left me feeling soincredibly optimistic and excited for the
(02:15):
future of our field. So buckleup. It's going to be a good one.
Rachel Hagemeier, welcome to CI to Eye.
Thank you. Very excited to be here today.
So you have such an interestingstory and before we get to
(02:39):
what I feel like is theheadline of your story,
I would love for you to justtell us what drew you to the
arts as a young person.
So I grew up in the world of bluegrass.My dad's a bluegrass musician,
so I grew up with that allaround me all the time.
And when I was probably 10 or so,
(03:01):
I was at the Walnut ValleyBluegrass Festival in Winfield,
Kansas where I still go every year.
And there was a woman namedNicolasa Kuster who is a bassoonist.
And so she was jamming around a campfirewith everyone else playing bassoon at a
bluegrass festival. And I said,
"This is the coolest thing I've everseen," and told my dad I'm going to play
(03:21):
that. And he said, okay, sure. Hehad no idea what a bassoon was.
And so then I started playing musicand being a bassoonist and doing
all the youth symphony things andstarted attending orchestra and I got a
performance degree, but I never wantedto be a performer. I loved to play,
but I didn't want it to become my job.
(03:42):
And so that's where I really fell intoarts administration as a thing I wanted
to do.
So it's always been around me and I stilltry to play as much as I can and all
that good stuff, but it's a comfort.It's like a home space for me. So...
Yeah.
How did you decide that you didn'twant performance to be your job?
So I saw the people who made it happen.
(04:03):
I saw the executive director of my youthsymphony and all the hard work that he
was doing,
and I saw the people who were doing
ticket sales,
and just realizing how manypeople it takes to make the arts
happen.
And I think it's so fulfilling tobe able to make this stuff happen
(04:25):
and to think about thelongevity of the arts. I mean,
I want to be able to saythat by the end of my career,
I've impacted how orchestrasare going to be able to
survive in the future,
and think about it that way so that ouramazing musicians can continue to do
what they do.
One of my biggest hopes in my owncareer is to just have a world
(04:47):
where many more youngpeople know that there
is a career track and itsname is Arts Administration.
And perhaps we can both relate to thisin the same way that our exposure-I
identify as a Midwesterner,
being from southwest Missouri-andmy exposure to the arts is much
different than a lot ofpeople who I'm around today.
(05:10):
And I never knew that this wassomething that you could do for a
living.
Do you feel like that's still somethingwe have a lot of work to do in as an
industry?
Yes. Oh, for sure. In the past, I guess,
Covid years and nowthe couple years after,
a lot more programs have been appearing.
We've seen a lot more master's levelsprograms appearing that have the title
(05:33):
Arts Administration.
Now I think where we still have alot of work to do is that within
those programs, what are theactual skills that we're teaching?
What are the hard skillsthat we're teaching?
And I also think that theunderstanding of business
is, I think,
something that we still need to work onabout how important it is to understand
(05:54):
that arts organizations are abusiness and have a product,
and you might have nonprofit in yourtitle, but you have to make money.
Nonprofit is a tax status.
Yes, nonprofit is a tax status. Itis not the act of not making money.
It's so incredibly crucial.
And so working with our schools ofbusiness to really lift up the arts
(06:15):
through a nonprofit lens andunderstanding that, I think,
still has some work to be done. But it'slovely to see more programs popping up.
We need good arts professionals inthe field right now. We really do.
We really, really, really do.
You were promoted to CEO when you were25 years old, which is incredible.
(06:36):
And it made you the youngest CEOin Canton Symphony's history.
And my first reaction before Ieven ask my question is just like,
I am dying to sort of hearhow that happened because
in a lot of ways I'm like, wow,
who are the other leaders in theorganization and the board that made this
possible? I think it's awesome.
(06:57):
Yeah, that meme of Paul Rudd going,"Who would've thought? Look at us.
Who would've thought? Not me."For a long time I was like,
I have no business beinghere. What is going on?
I also felt that when I startedas Manager of Education, though.
They hired me right out of schooland I was so scared about my age
and was so... When Iwas 21, I was like, oh,
(07:20):
no one's going to take me seriously.
And then every colleague in the fieldwas like, why are you worried about this?
Maybe someone will make acomment, maybe someone will,
but that's not someone who's going tobe a good collaborator or colleague
anyway, so you do yourjob and see what happens.
And if it does become anissue, then we'll address it.
Don't assume it's going to be an issue.
(07:42):
And so I kind of had that feelingwhen I became CEO. I was still very
surprised at the whole thing. I didnot think it was going to happen,
but I was ready to do the next thing.
I had been Manager of Education andI was ready to do something else.
I felt like I'd reallylearned what I could do,
and I saw there was no way for meto move up at the Canton Symphony.
(08:03):
There's only so many people.
And there's not upward mobility.
So I was looking for jobsand I had a job offer and the
day I was going to tell our CEO at thetime that I was going to take that job,
she announced she was leavingthe same day. And I went,
okay, let's just take a beat really quick.
(08:27):
What hurt does it do tothrow my hat in the ring?
And so I went to our CEO and I said,
I would be interested in maybethrowing my hat in the ring for this
position. What's the timeline?What is the board thinking?
And she said to me verysurprisingly, well,
the board is thinking about makingyou interim. And I was like...
(08:49):
Wow.
...Really? Okay. I wasvery flattered by that.
I have good relationships withour board members. I knew them.
I guess the quality of my work had showedto them with what I'd been able to do
with the community engagementand educational programming.
And then I was a littlebit ballsy and I said,
I don't want to take somethingthat's not necessarily a guarantee.
(09:12):
I would love to take this position,but only if I'm not interim.
And they offered it to me and it wasvery surprising and I didn't quite know
what to do with it. And it was very,
very scary and I wasstressed out of my mind.
Being 25 at the time,
what was the biggestchallenge and what is also
(09:32):
the biggest benefit to youryouth at the time or even now?
So to my point earlier ofpeople bringing up my age now,
a lot of people, they're justsurprised that I'm young.
They're not put off by it. I havehad donors come up to me and say,
I was skeptical atfirst, but now I'm fine.
And I think it's just (09:52):
do your job. If you do your job and do it well,
the age thing is not going to bea big deal. It doesn't matter.
And so I think it servesme well because people see
the freshness.
A lot of people say the organizationfeels like it has a fresh perspective.
Our board is a fairly young board now.
(10:16):
We've brought on board members thatare close to my age and they feel
comfortable joining a board.Because I'm the leader,
it's less intimidating becausethere's someone their age.
So there's a lot ofpros and cons for sure.
Cons is that I don'thave as much experience,
and so I'm having to read a lot ofstuff and learn a lot of things,
(10:36):
but it's fun.
Yeah. Well, you mentioned this,you worked as-before being CEO,
you worked as the manager of educationand community engagement at the Canton
Symphony.
What was that transition like for youwhen you transitioned from sort of the day
to day weeds work and community engagementthat one does in a position like that
(10:57):
to your executive job now?
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that we're asmall arts organization,
and so everyone is boots on the grounda lot of the time with everything.
The biggest shift for me wasthat it was hard for me to not
be the one doing everylittle thing all of the time.
(11:20):
And I think the biggest thingis to learn to trust your staff
and know that they knowwhat they're doing.
I think that I'm so incredibly lucky atthe Canton Symphony that we have a staff
where we've gotten to a place,it didn't happen overnight,
but we've gotten to a place where weknow how to communicate with each other.
I know that I can trustthem to do their jobs,
(11:40):
but I started working with aleadership coach who really helped me
understand you have yourway of operating as a human,
the way that you want to talk to people,
the way that you want tocommunicate with people,
and so does everyone else. And the bestthing that you can do as a manager is
take the time to get to know every singleemployee and what that means for them,
(12:03):
because you're going to have to shiftthe way you have a conversation about
failure depending on whichemployee you're talking to.
You can't talk about it in theway that necessarily you would.
And so it's very incrediblyhelpful to have those tools in your
toolbox. Suddenly people startedfeeling more comfortable to say,
I don't like it when you do this, or Ireally need you to help me with this.
(12:25):
Did you have a natural curiosity towant to make some of these changes?
Really realizing, oh,
I do need to understand how everyone ticksin order to iterate myself amongst my
staff. Did you come to thatnaturally or was that work for you?
Yes, and. I think that whenI first started as CEO,
I was so concernedabout a few things. One,
(12:47):
I needed to get people to buy into meas a leader as fast as humanly possible.
I'm the youngest person in theoffice. I know what I'm doing.
I need to convince them thatI do know what I'm doing,
but I don't know everything.
And I need to be able to assert myself as
a boss and as someone with a vision,
but also so that when Iask questions, it's not,
(13:11):
it's because of curiosity andwanting to be better at my own job.
And so I really quickly wantedto get to know the staff.
I wanted the staff to feelsafe at the organization.
And then we had a rough spring of 2023.
Lots of change. People wereangry, they were stressed,
(13:33):
they were burnt out. The schedulewas just back-to-back concerts.
Everyone was burnt out. AndI was like, this is bad.
I have to figure out something.
And so I kind of wasforced into realizing, oh,
you need to be way moreintentional with this.
You can't just assume that because youknew these people before you were their
boss, that you know them now. Therelationship is very different,
(13:56):
and you need to get to knowthem on a how they tick,
how they need to be managed,how do they like to communicate?
You need to get to know themat that level. It's not easy,
but it definitely is worth it when you'reable to really rally a team together
at the end.
Yeah, I couldn't agreemore. I couldn't agree more.
Have you had a situationwhere you feel convicted about
(14:19):
something or the way you have culturallydecided to handle it or decided through
your own values to handle it, and inthose moments, the world is saying, "No,
Rachel,
we do it this way" and you haveto sort of push-pull in those
moments and decide,
am I going to traverse my own values anddo it their way or am I going to stick
(14:39):
to my guns? And then feltvery conflicted after that?
Yeah. Oh, so many.
I figured.
I got so much adviceabout how to be a CEO.
That's exactly what Iwanted you to answer.
And so much of it was really good advice.A lot of really, really good advice.
And some of it, I got it and I went, what?
(15:04):
Are you kidding me?That's how we do things?
And it was everything I didn't want frommy boss that they were telling me to
do.
I got a piece of advice that said,
and there's a bit of truth inthis, but there's a big old caveat,
where you can't be friendswith your employees.
Oh God, yes. This is a classic one.
You can't be friends with your employees.
(15:26):
And what they mean is you need to
be able to create definedand agreed upon lines of
professionalism while at workthat if they need to come down,
everyone understands why they're comingdown and that we've shifted into a
different mode. That's what that means.
(15:47):
That doesn't mean you can't befriends with your employees.
I'm very much friends with my employees.
Nuance.
We go to karaoke often,
but my relationship is differentwith them because I do need to
have a wall up so that if Ineed to make a hard decision,
I make the hard decision.
But understanding that is so key.And when I got that piece of advice,
(16:11):
I was shocked. And then I didn'tknow how to actually deal with it,
and the lines were blurred,
and it got really messy and Ialmost became not friends with my
employees because of it.And so that was a really interesting
one to navigate. I had to stumbleinto figuring out what to do there.
Union negotiations were reallyweird. A lot of people said,
(16:34):
don't show the finances tothe musicians. Don't do it.
Don't show the finances to the musicians.
Then they're going to ask too manyquestions. They're going to know too much.
They're going to ask toomuch of you. I was like,
that feels really counterintuitive. Ifeel like if they knew the finances,
then they would understand whyI can't give them that thing.
I would be able to explain it to themand they would be in it with me and
(16:56):
understand, this is where we're really at.
So I brought our auditor in and ourauditor went through the entire financial
audit with them, and at the end, theychanged so much of what they asked for,
and I was like...
But I held off doing that for ninemonths of negotiations. And I'm like,
if I'd just done that from the beginning,
we would've gotten somewhere so muchquicker. And now it's like, okay,
(17:19):
now we're here. So yes,all the time. All the time.
And it's really hard to know whenmaybe your conviction is a little
misplaced and you need toreevaluate it versus when the
gut is right, the systemis wrong. It's tricky.
The gut's the key, right?
It is the key.
Your gut is almost always going tolead you to the right decisions.
(17:41):
I think leaders often learn that.
You make the decision you think you'resupposed to make and your gut is flipping
over and going inside out,
and then you realize six months laterit was the wrong choice and you're like,
I should have listened to my gut. So,
think about the other managersof education and outreach who are out there right
(18:02):
now. And thinking about those folks whowant to move into leadership positions,
what would you say to them?
Yeah,
I think that this is a field thatyou have so much room to play
with, and there's so many differentthings happening in the field of arts
administration and honestly,
our field right now needs younger people,
(18:23):
needs younger people to come in withall these fresh ideas and to think
about things differently. So getto know your local orchestra.
Go talk to those people, doan informational interview. They'll be so excited.
Oh my gosh. They'll be so excited thatsomeone wants to know about their job.
They will. Go shadow for a day.Just get to know the organization.
(18:46):
I did tons of informationalinterviews. It was my favorite.
I just called people andtalk to them. I still do it.
I love them! People love to do them.
I still do. And people love it. Oh,people love talking about themselves.
People love it. I lovetalking to young people.
I've convinced now threepeople to go into arts
administration. We're trying to tickit up higher, but we're working on it.
(19:06):
We're working on it.
Okay. Rachel, you have reachedwhat we call the CI to Eye moment.
If you could broadcast onemessage to executive directors,
leadership teams, staff, and boardsof a thousand arts organizations,
what would it be?
Thank you for all the work that youdo. This is a really hard field.
(19:29):
Being a CEO can be incredibly lonely.
So boards (19:34):
look after your CEOs. They need the support.
And the more verbal youare with it, the better.
And with that,
verbally celebrating the factthat we get to do what we do.
We're very lucky that weget to make art happen.
(19:54):
We are very lucky that we get towitness amazing creators all the time
and to remind ourselvesthat when it is really hard,
when we look at the field and we're like,
the funding is goingaway. All of the grants,
we don't even qualify for them anymore.
All the United Arts funds aredisappearing. What are we going to do?
(20:15):
Art is resilient, and we are resilient,
and we will come up with ways tonavigate this if we remind ourselves and
celebrate each otherand lift each other up.
Because the more we celebratepublicly and say things out loud,
the more communities are going towant to be a part of that celebration,
want to be a part of thisamazing stuff we've got going on.
(20:37):
And it's hard work andthanks for doing it with us.
Well, Rachel, I am a fan.
This has been such anenjoyable time spent for me.
I cannot wait to see what you do for thefield over the course of your career.
And I thank you so much forspending time with us today.
Thank you. This was wonderful. I am sohappy to talk about this topic. And yeah,
(20:59):
it's been a really fun littleafternoon here with you guys.
Monica Holt, welcome andwelcome back to CI to Eye.
Thank you so much. I'm happyto be back. It's been a minute.
Monica, we're aging.
I think the last time you wereon the podcast was 2017, right?
(21:22):
I was just a young lady trying tomake her way in the wild streets
of nonprofit arts administration.
I too was a young lady. Well,
this episode is all about leadership,
but before we get into that, for peoplewho maybe don't know who you are,
can you start by just talking about whatbrought you to the arts in the first
(21:45):
place?
Oh, sure.
I am very lucky and fortunate to havegrown up in a household where the
arts were part of every day.Music, going to shows in D.C. ...
I grew up just outside ofD.C. so even in my youth,
I was going to shows atall of the local theaters.
So I was very fortunate to have afamily that was entrenched in the arts,
(22:08):
and that was with me thewhole time as I grew up.
And I think I didn't really understandwhat a career in the arts meant outside
of being a performer untilpretty late in college.
And at that point I realized I hadkind of always been on this marketing,
advertising, branding trackin school. Ultimately,
I ended up looking at mostly marketingand branding jobs and internships.
(22:30):
And at Washington National Opera,
I was able to get an internship there,
and then my first professionalcareer position, I would say,
as New Media Coordinator.
And ultimately it was the right timingthat led me to Washington National Opera
because the KennedyCenter affiliated in 2011.
So I was brought over ontothe marketing team here.
(22:52):
And so that accelerated my journeyto a larger performing arts center.
I'm going to go back to this ideathat there are hundreds of us,
thousands of us,
who have been band geeks or choirgeeks or theater geeks in high school.
Maybe you're not the most talented person,
so you're not going toactually act or sing or play,
but how can you stillparticipate in the arts as a
(23:15):
career?
And I still think and believe stronglythat we don't do a good job of helping
people understand you can takethat interest and that actually can
be an administrative career for youthat's quite stable and quite rewarding.
Do you feel like we stillhave work to do there?
I completely agree.
There are so many components and pieces,
(23:38):
both desk jobs and labor positions,
that contribute to what brings them joyand entertainment when they see it on
stage or on screen.
And it's so important to see some of theseprojects and goals of what's possible
because we're missing a lot ofimagination and a lot of thought in
our space for folks who just don'teven know these positions exist.
(24:01):
And I think it's a little more-probablybecoming more legible on the marketing
side, but we have a robust financeteam at the Kennedy Center,
and our VP of FinancialPlanning has played piano her
entire life. And that'swhat led her here is,
it was her professionalskillset and her personal
(24:21):
passions, interests. And I don'tthink we show those stories.
Yeah, it's a topic Ifeel very strongly about,
and I think those of us who arehere need to get our megaphones
out and do some labor.
And sometimes I feel proudof the progress that happens,
but I then feel like it's restrictedonly to very expensive degree
(24:44):
programs. And I don'tthink that's-in fact,
I'm evidence that that'snot the only way in.
And I just feel very strongly that wehave to give more voice to that. Anyway,
jumping back to where you sort of endedyour story about how you got to the
arts. First of all,
tell everyone what you dotoday at the Kennedy Center.
Sure.
(25:05):
I work as the Senior Vice President ofArtistic Planning and Production at the
Kennedy Center. So that is the role today,
but obviously very differentthan where I started.
And so for people who don'tknow you and are listening,
one of the reasons why I wanted you totalk about what you do now is because
that journey is just, it's veryuncommon and so interesting.
(25:28):
And there's a couple of thingsthat I think are notable.
One is just making the jump from marketingto the programming side is fairly
unusual in our industry.
What I think is also uncommon aboutyour journey for your generation,
not to stereotype a generation,
is that you have spent all of thistime inside of one organization,
(25:48):
and that's pretty unusual these days.
So can we start there and hear how youmade the hard decisions maybe over the
years to take different positions withinthe Kennedy Center and actually stay
there, which I think is amazing.
Yes, it is.
I think I have now officially outlastedall of my friends from college
(26:09):
in the career game of who can stay attheir first place of employment the
longest. So,
going back a beat to WashingtonNational Opera... So my role there,
I was New Media Coordinator.
And having the word 'new' in your title,
it gave me a lot of freedomand grace as to how I wanted to
(26:31):
accomplish the goals thatwere being set for me.
That was a very empowering experience,
not just in my confidence,
but also in confirming the importance of
taking on new challenges andeducating yourself to try something
new if you think it is something thatwill be important to you on your career
(26:52):
path. So the KennedyCenter affiliated in 2011,
so I was brought over onto the marketingteam here. And then from there,
the first decision that I had to makecareer-wise was as some roles opened up on
the marketing strategy side asopposed to the advertising side,
deciding if that was the right opportunityto seize. And the way I saw it was,
(27:12):
yes, it was certainly an opportunityto grow in my career, but again,
it was also a newskillset for me to learn.
And over time, thedepartment changed a bit,
our organizationalleadership was changing,
and I ended up in a role as the directorof marketing for the center at a
time when we needed to be buildingout more of a marketing team.
(27:35):
And when I had moved into the manager
role, the first year was the firsttime I had ever hired anyone,
and we were kind of both ontraining wheels at the same time.
In the way that I talk about it, shewas learning how to do her first job.
I was learning how to manage someone.
This is such a goodpoint for me to ask you,
(27:56):
what were the questions you were askingyourself about what does it mean to be a
manager, not just of an area,
but also now I have tobe a manager of a person?
Because I think I now witness anewer generation of individuals who
really feel hesitant to want to do that.
And I'm trying to do this podcastseries in a way to say, you know what?
(28:19):
None of us really knew the answerseither. So what were you thinking?
No, none of us knew the answers.
Right? You learn it.
None of us knew the answers. I was,again, excited for a challenge,
but also terrifiedbecause it's not just the
responsibility and a drive tobe successful, but it's also,
it's another human being,right? It's another heartbeat.
(28:42):
And I think if we all takea beat and think, okay,
at the end of a tough day at work,
if you go home and talk to your partneror a friend or a parent on the phone,
you're going to be talking aboutsome of the characters you work with.
And probably at some point over thecourse of a week, a month, a year,
(29:02):
you're going to betalking about your boss.
Who do you want to be in those stories?You can't be the hero all the time.
And to be honest, you alsohave to make peace with,
even if you do everything that is alignedwith your values and what you feel a
leader should be accomplishingin a role as a manager,
you might still be the villain.
And you have to be ableto let go of control.
(29:26):
Because you don't have it.
A hundred percent.
And it's not your right tohave any control over that,
but you have to be ableto go home at night,
acknowledge that you mighthave an outsized impact on an individual or group of
individuals' days, weeks, months, years,
and be able to make peace with yourself.
And I think that is whatterrified me about it.
(29:49):
The other thing that I could haveused more of is leaders willing
to talk about their struggles.
A hundred percent.
And their excitement.
And sometimes it feels like we've gottenso fixed on what makes a good leader,
that we're not having the conversationabout all of the questions and doubts
and experiences that leaders are havingthat might be uncomfortable to share
(30:13):
because it's not necessarilythe most beautiful reflection.
The compounding value of makingmistakes and learning from 'em.
And I think the sharing ofthose mistakes is so key to
helping a newer generation offolks go like, okay, great.
They screwed it up. Iprobably will screw it up.
That makes this feel a little bit moreaccessible to me. But to your point,
(30:34):
talking about what is amazing aboutleading a group of people and the
feelings you get when you watch peoplegrow exponentially and even depart your
organization and go on to doother amazing things... Like, god,
is there anything betterthan that feeling?
Yeah, I feel so strongly about that.
And the ability to watch thepeople around you grow and
(30:59):
rise is what can makeleadership so rewarding.
The leaders I am most admiring of,
understand that they are playing a longgame and understand that they might not
be there at the finish line.I think it also depends on the situation.
So at that time, building a team,
I will say I did have moreinstant gratification than not.
(31:21):
But I think transitioningfrom that group that was
really in a quickly growing postureto the role that I'm in now,
which is more about howare you evolving together?
It's very different and theexcitement is different,
the challenges are different.
And in the spirit of sharingstruggles and excitement,
(31:44):
I think when you watch a teamthat then also has their own teams
that they work with and avery distinct portfolio,
to then be trying to operatebetween all of those teams,
it can feel more isolating than Iwas expecting, particularly at first.
Yeah,
I think a lot of leaders wouldsay you ultimately end up sitting
(32:07):
kind of alone in those spaces.And for a lot of people,
no one ever said that. That wasa surprise. In a lot of ways,
when you are part of a greaterensemble in your organization,
that community can be suchan awesome experience,
but at a certain point youdo give some of that up
(32:30):
in order to wear the crown andprovide leadership in a different way.
And I think a lot of people get surprised.
And it's being responsiblefor the decision that
might not be everyone's favoritechoice in the short term.
And there are moments whereyou have to reckon with
(32:50):
the fact that it's on you, and it's notsomething that is a decision by jury.
And I'm someone who loves toget input and ask advice and
dialogue on so many things,
and sometimes it's on you to make surethat you have gotten the information you
need, but then to ultimately...
You have to decide and be accountable.
...Make a choice andbe accountable for it.
(33:13):
And I think one thing that has reallystruck me is this idea of are you making
bets or are you making investments?
I think that is such a succinctway of demonstrating the
fork in the road that a lot of peoplefind themselves in in any job but
particularly in leadership roles.
(33:33):
Am I going to make a decision based on the
pressures of the moment thatmight have a short-term impact,
or am I going to make adecision that might be harder,
that might require more resources upfront,
because I am looking at thelong-term trajectory of the division,
the organization, or the field?
(33:56):
There are a lot of bets that would bereally fun to take, but when I look back,
when I am beyond this career,
I want to feel like I havemade decisions that have led
the organization to be in a betterplace than it was than when I was in it.
And so that in 10 or 20 years,
(34:16):
the organization is having a greaterimpact because of some seeds that I was
able to plant when I was there.
It is sort of said that 10% of people
are born to lead, 20% can learn it,
and the rest of us justshouldn't do it at all.
(34:37):
My snap judgment about you, whichI've made many, many, many years ago,
is that you were born forthis. I'll tell you why.
I've always felt that whenI spend time with you,
I feel very safe and I feel unique
and that you see me andconnect really deeply with me.
And in my mind I'm alwayslike, oh, that's an us thing.
(35:01):
And then when I was prepping forthis podcast, I was like, oh,
you know what? That might be howeveryone feels when they work with her.
That might be a unique thing that shedoes as a leader that maybe a lot of
people feel that.
That is a very kind andgenerous thing for you to share.
(35:22):
Respectfully, I'm not sure.
I expected a response like that.
I'm not sure I agree that people are born
to or can be educated to or are not
able to become leaders...for a few reasons.
(35:43):
One is that leadership isabout context, ultimately.
I could have a leadershipapproach here that when I go
three blocks down the road in D.C.everyone's like, what are you doing?
So one is just the context ofit. Leadership isn't a monolith.
So what do we really mean when we saysomeone's born to be a leader? And then,
(36:06):
is everyone given not just the tools or
opportunity to discover whetherthey might be a good leader,
but is everyone empoweredand encouraged and trusted
to believe that they can be?
I think anyone who shows a willingnessor an interest in learning about
(36:26):
leadership can become a good leader.
I think that to me isthe barrier for entry.
So that was a really long-windedway of saying thank you.
And also I disagree with it.
It's very wise. I like it.We talked about this earlier.
It feels like external factors onus would say it's important for
(36:49):
my career to leave andgo do something else.
It won't look good on paper.
Have you had to answer thosequestions for yourself?
Absolutely.
I would say frequently it'ssomething that I think about.
And I think the things thathave kept me here are, one,
(37:11):
a true belief in the center'smission and ability to deliver
on its mission,
a love of what we are growing
and building here. And that changesevery few years, to be frank.
I'm not staying here now for the samereasons I was staying here seven years
ago. I think that's important.
(37:32):
It's a refreshed commitmentand responsibility,
and I really enjoy thepeople that I work with here.
Even in moments ofdisagreement, there is kindness.
And even when we are disagreeing,
I still believe that everyone'sperspective is coming from a place of
believing it is the right thing forthe institution and the people it is
(37:56):
serving. That feels like something thatI want to hold onto and keep uplifting.
And most of all,
I believe that arts are acritical part of everyone's life.
We know there is data and science thatproves the importance of arts, culture,
humanities, and people's mentalhealth and physical wellbeing,
(38:16):
and how wonderful to workfor an organization that also
believes in that and wants tomake arts available to every
person in the countryand around the world.
Great.
Picture young people who have chosen to
work in the arts,
(38:36):
specifically the folks thatare maybe not in the best
circumstances,
maybe they're in an arts organizationthat is struggling financially which is
not a small number thesedays. What do you say
to all young people,
but specifically the people whoare listening this podcast who are
clinging to information thatwill help them stay the course?
(39:00):
So you can pretty quicklyspin yourself out thinking,
what am I going to do next?Why isn't this person doing Y?
Why isn't that person doing X?
And how is this organization ever goingto move into the future if... if... if?
But I think you need to give yourselfthe grace to focus on building the best
version of yourself in thisspace because only someone who is
(39:22):
cemented in their values andcemented in their ability
to be continuously learning andcontributing can then really start
to move forward and make change inthe space with others over time.
But if you have a belief inthis field and it's feeling
hopeless, then take a minuteto recenter on yourself first.
(39:46):
That's great advice. Okay. We'vereached your CI to Eye moment.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
staff, and boards of athousand arts organizations,
what would it be?
I think it would be a call toaction or a call to participation
(40:07):
for how we reinvent the businessmodel with the focus being
that leadership's role is to betaking care of the staff of that
organization.
And I think sometimes it's easyto skip that piece and say,
leadership's role is to make sure thatwe are presenting the best artists on our
stages or having the mostinclusive spaces in the
(40:32):
country on our site. Thatis the organization's goal.
How is leadership empowering anduplifting the staff that needs to
deliver on that mission?
And I think what the readingbetween the lines there is has
to do with staffing,resourcing, and compensation.
(40:52):
And I think that our industry was builtin a way that a lot of nonprofits are,
on the hopes and dreams andbeliefs of their youngest staff
carrying them through acompensation scheme that
was never meant to be on equalfooting to the corporate world.
(41:12):
And I think we're going to see moreand more over time that grace and
belief in mission, vision,
and values isn't goingto overcome the need for
resources. It's not the sexiest call toaction, but it's what I think we need.
I love it. I consider myselfcalled to action. Monica Holt...
Let's do it.
Thank so much for being here.
(41:34):
Thank you, Christopher. Thank you CI!
Hi, Priya.
Hi, Christopher.
Welcome back to the pod.
Oh my god, thanks. It'snice to be on this side.
I can't say the standardsort of welcome to CI to Eye.
(41:57):
You've been here severaltimes and kind of live here.
Yeah, I live here inside of CI to Eye.
So for people who...
I think a lot of people havehad some exposure to your story,
but before we get intotalking about leadership,
tell me again for thecheap seats in the back,
how did you get here to the arts?
(42:18):
Yeah. No,
the arts have been just such a hugepart of my life from such a young age.
I grew up dancing classicalSouth Indian dance,
and I also grew up dancing moreon the Western side of things.
So ballet, tap, jazz, modern.
I was very interested in the dance world,
(42:40):
and that was just a big partof my intro to the arts.
And I grew up singing too.
And so I sort of moved my way intoWestern singing as well, as I grew up,
as I went into elementary and middleschool and people around me were not
participating in SouthIndian classical art forms,
but they were participatingin musical theater.
And so I found my way thereand went to school for musical
(43:04):
theater, and I thought I wanted tobe a star on the Broadway stage.
But halfway through college,
I sort of realized that thelife of a musical theater
performer probably was notgoing to be satisfying for me,
so I pivoted. But I knew that Iwanted to stay in the arts because
(43:26):
I really felt like art is auniversal way to connect with people,
and I wanted to be a part of makingthat a bigger impact in the world.
So that's how I found my way to theadministrative side and then the marketing
side of the arts. So I started my careeron Broadway, but on the marketing side.
(43:47):
In those first years, it really didfeel like I was living the dream.
I went to the Tony Awards, and Iwas at a Broadway opening night,
and it was just so sparkly andso exciting. Then over time,
I started to feel like, okay,
Broadway is very focused on the showthat's going to make the most amount of
money,
and I came here to find storiesthat were important that
(44:08):
could have an impact on people's lives,
and I wanted to find workthat could support more of that. So that's how I found
the nonprofit side, and that'sactually how I found Capacity.
And I made my way in, andthat was back in 2016.
And then sort of out of nowhere,
a job offer from SanDiego showed up in my lap.
And I'm a big believer insigns from the universe,
(44:30):
and I wondered if maybe the universewas telling me I needed to try something
new.
And that was also sort of a testto see do I need the arts to be in
my career? The test failed.
I do need the arts to be in my career.
And so while I was sort of having thosethoughts and wondering what I might do
with them,
(44:50):
Mr. Erik Gensler gave me acall and asked me to come back,
and we all took a leap of faith.And three years later, here we are.
Here we are.
I know, it's crazy. It's crazy.
When you knew that perhaps being aperformer on the Broadway was not
necessarily in the cards for you,
(45:12):
how were you aware that there was anadministrative path that you could
take?
Did someone within the universitysystem make you aware of that?
Were you always aware that thatwas a choice you could make?
I definitely was not always aware,but I did go to a theater school,
so I went to Ithaca College andI was in the musical theater
(45:34):
track,
but I was surrounded by people who werein different theater-related tracks.
And some of them I knew about,
some of them were much more of thecostume side or the prop side of things or
lighting.
Those pieces I felt closer to becausethose were closer physically to the stage.
But that was the first time that Ireally got exposed to company management,
(45:58):
general management, the actualbusiness side, marketing,
development, all of those pieces. So yeah,
I think I got lucky that that exposurewas all around me once I got to college.
But before that, not on my radar at all.
I'm so eager to still continue toshine so much light on this subject.
(46:19):
And I still think it's soimportant that we tell people,
young people, that thisis a path you can take.
And it's an important one because it'shard for performers to stand on a stage
or for art to hang on the walls ofa museum without an administrative
staff selling tickets,raising money, et cetera.
(46:39):
It all works together.
Listeners may or may notknow, Priya is my boss,
and so as we continue tolet our conversation unfold,
I just want everyone to have fullperspective into our conversation.
Priya,
are you willing to let listeners havesome idea of where you sit generationally?
(47:01):
Oh, sure. Yes. I am 33 years old,
so I sit squarely in the millennialgeneration. Go millennials.
Thank you for sharing that. Again,
the point of this particular episodeis to really shine a very bright
light on this crop of amazingindividuals who are sitting in
leadership roles in arts organizationswho are not Gen X or Boomer or Silent
(47:26):
Generation. No shade on any of thosepeople. I am in one of those groups.
But it's so exciting to me in my career,
which is now in its fourth decade,
it is so exciting to see new leadershipstyles and different ways that
people are doing things.So tell me two things.
What were the things that greatleaders did that you were like, ah,
(47:51):
damn, when I'm in the chair,I'm going to do it like that,
or take on that component ofthat person. And then conversely,
what were the things that yousaw that you were like, hell no,
not going to happen on my watch.
Okay, so great leaders listen.
I feel very deeply for thisone because I think when
(48:12):
you're a brand new person to theworkforce and you have a leader
who is invested inlistening to the experience
that you're having and allowingtheir support, management,
guidance to be driven bywhat they're hearing from
you, it makes all thedifference in the world.
(48:35):
I think on the flip side,
what I've watched happen that then Ididn't want to do is I've watched new
managers-for the sake ofperfectionism or hyper
achievement-micromanage or only accept
one approach of doing things.
And we are all human beings withall of these different component
(48:58):
parts inside us.
And I think replicating somethingin a one-to-one way when it's a
completely different personnow executing the work is an
unrealistic expectation.
And to be on the receivingend can be so incredibly
demoralizing,
and I think it makes you feellike the strengths that maybe you
(49:22):
once had confidence inare no longer applicable.
So I think that can becomea really dangerous cycle.
A hundred percent. When Ilisten to you talk about that,
one of the things that Iimmediately think of is
just-especially in the arts, whichis still so predominantly white,
which is a big problem for us-part of...
(49:45):
I'm air quoting forpeople who can't see me...
Part of doing things the right wayor the way it's always been done
has also meant doingthings the "white way."
I know you have a lot to say about that,
and I know that I have learned a lotfrom you about this and still continue to
do so, but I think it'ssuch an important topic.
Yeah,
(50:05):
I think the thing that's hardabout this is that it doesn't
necessarily take somebodyexplicitly saying,
you have to present like this,
or you have to show uplike this on a client call.
It doesn't take just thoseexplicit statements for somebody
(50:26):
to read between thelines and pick up on what
it means to be successfulin a certain place at a
certain time. And I think for me,
when I joined Capacity, and even now,
it's a predominantly white team,
(50:47):
and I was taking my cues from more
senior people around me, all ofwhom were predominantly white.
And I think it can feel alienating,
but without anybody saying "yourauthentic self needs to sound like that."
Without anybody saying any of that. Itwas things that were as simple as...
(51:08):
I remember super early on,
I was on a call with a client andthe client mispronounced my name,
and I sort of went to correct it,
but the person leading the call justsort of moved forward with the call. So
then I was like, okay, let's moveforward the call. No big deal.
And then that call was an hour longand throughout the entire call,
(51:30):
my name was mispronounced.Yeah, I was PRY-uh. Yeah. And
once you get past the first five minutes,it's too late. What am I going to say?
Hey, by the way, 55 minutes agoyou said my name was Pry-uh,
and you've been saying itsubsequently that way since,
and I now 55 minutes into the callI'm going to correct you. It's like,
(51:52):
oh god. So I just didn't,
but I think I also just watchedthe other people in the room not,
and
those types of things then becomeadditional disruptions that we have to
work through in an officesetting of any type.
(52:13):
And so I think that's whattakes me back to this idea that
representation matters,
not just because you want to seeother people who are successful,
who look like you,
but also because all of these littlethings that happen throughout the day
when the room is more diverse,those things become more normalized.
(52:33):
So then I don't have tothink twice about, "Actually,
can I just interrupt you? I just wantto make it clear it's pronounced Priya,
because if I don't tell younow, I can't tell you ever."
So anyway...
What would you say tosay to the average 24 or
(52:54):
25-year-old who is sitting in theirfirst or second more junior role
inside of an arts organization,
which is unfortunately likely very white.
What would you say to those folks whoare listening to that story and they're
like, "Yep.".
I will first say that you mightnot wake up every day wanting to
(53:14):
do what I'm going to suggestthat you do, and that's okay.
It feels like a great deal ofresponsibility to represent something not only for
yourself, but for all ofthose who come behind you,
and some days that just feelsincredibly exhausting, and that is okay.
But what I would say in that is thatI think it's easy to make a lot of
assumptions, as I did, about whatthe definition of success is.
(53:38):
And I would urge people to askmore specific questions about the
expectation and definition ofsuccess instead of solely relying
on context clues in an environmentthat perhaps has not historically
had people like you in it or peoplelike you in great volumes in it.
(53:58):
I would venture to say thatsometimes when you ask the direct
question, the answer is actuallythe opposite of the assumption,
but you never know until youask. I wish I had just asked,
"Hey,
would it have been okay forme or you to interrupt the
client and let them knowthat that happened?".
(54:22):
God,
isn't asking questions just such auniversal solution to so many of our
problems? You and I justhad a conversation about asking questions yesterday.
Yes, we did.
This is a thing that not only can behelpful to you in the beginning of your
career, it's maybe even moreimportant as you get further on.
And you do not have to know.In fact, often you do not know.
(54:47):
Yeah, a thousand percent.A thousand percent.
I'm writing that on aPost-It note for myself.
I know.
So you were on a podcastepisode on CI to Eye
in 2022 when you firstcame back to Capacity to be
our President,
and on that episode youspecifically talked about
(55:09):
ruinous empathy. Whereare we now on the journey?
Yeah, yeah.
So ruinous empathy comesfrom this concept of
radical candor, which is theidea that if you care personally,
you can challenge directly.
And ruinous empathyessentially is that you care
(55:31):
personally and are unableto challenge directly.
You care too personally to beable to challenge directly.
So super early in my time here,
and a big part of cominginto the role was managing
people who had previouslyessentially managed me.
(55:52):
I'm looking at one of them right nowin the face, Mr. Christopher Williams.
And so I think as I came in early on,
I had spent a lot of time onthe care personally piece,
and I wanted to do a lot of listening,especially with the leadership team,
to sort of understand the lay of the land.
Many people on our leadership teamhave been here for 10 years plus at
(56:13):
this point.
And so I really wanted tolisten and understand what each
person was feelingabout the now, the past,
what they're hopeful for in thefuture, those types of things.
But I think that I early on didn'tfeel like I had the right to
challenge directly. But now havingspent more time in the role,
(56:36):
having understood the business more,
having worked alongside this team more,
we're all collectively workingtowards the same thing, right?
We're all just doing our part,working towards the same thing.
And when I was able tointernalize that shared
goal, it became more aboutif the feedback's not given,
(56:59):
then there isn't an opportunity for usto get to that goal in the same way.
It remains a barrier.
This sort of topic generallycame up with the other
two guests in the episode.
This idea that folkswho make their way into
upper leadership positionsearlier in their careers will
(57:23):
find themselves having to manage
individuals not only whoare younger than they are,
but [it's] harder managingthose who may have
multiple decades on them.And that's also true for you.
What would you say to folks who arelistening to this about what that journey
(57:46):
is like and what you've learned,or what you're still learning?
One thing that I've learned is thatthe experience of others does not
negate the experienceand expertise of myself.
I think I used to think of it that way.
I'll use you as an example becauseyou're sitting right here. It's been,
(58:06):
did you say, four decades?
I'm in the fourth.
Yeah, there you go. In the workforce.
I am not in the fourthdecade in the workforce,
but that doesn't mean that if I havea piece of feedback for you or if
we are collaborating,
it doesn't mean that mydecades mean nothing to you,
and that my perspectivemeans nothing to you.
(58:29):
And it took me a littlewhile to internalize that,
but so long as we can still have the
level of caring personally,and the closeness,
and the ability to challenge directlyand have these big picture strategic
conversations... And for me, we'reall just humans at the end of the day,
working together. And agedoesn't really change that.
(58:53):
Every stage of your life,that's all you're doing.
You're just a human beingdoing the best that you can,
which I think universalizes it.
Yeah,
I sort of envision rightnow the sort of archetype
of an arts admin,
someone who is so happy to be at theirarts organization and is working really
(59:14):
hard because that'swhat we do in the arts,
and maybe they see theirexecutive director or artistic director walking up and
down the hallway and they think tothemselves, that's the job I want to do.
So as a young leader in the arts,
what have you seen or what do you see asthe biggest challenge to being a young
leader in the arts? And conversely,what's a really big benefit?
(59:37):
Yeah. Well, I think that thechallenge, I just touched on.
You cannot control how otherpeople assign or don't assign
value to age. You just can't.
But what can be hard is tonot let that knock me off
balance a little bit.
To not let the voices in my headshow up and sort of say like, "Yeah,
(01:00:00):
you are so young. What are you doing?What are you doing in this meeting?
Why are you the one here doingthis?" But I also think that
it sometimes means that we trynew things and we take some
different risks,
and the perspective isinformed by the future.
Right now,
(01:00:21):
I'm considered a young president,
but not too long from now, it'sgoing to just all be my generation.
And the way of theworkplace is shifting and
the audiences coming into artsand cultural institutions,
those are shifting.And in some ways I feel like I have an
(01:00:44):
edge because I'm here now.
I have the power that I havethat comes with this seat and
I can offer a perspectivethat does also inform
where things are going to go and itmight seem like we're not quite there
yet, or it's kind of newor it's kind of green,
or "you've got to learn that that's notgoing to work for yourself." Those are
(01:01:07):
the types of things that I mighthear, but that's not always true.
And oftentimes the spaghetti does stickto the wall and we get to try something
new and my fresh perspectiveallows some of that to happen
and that is the benefit.
Shall we do a CI to Eye momentwithin the context of this topic?
(01:01:27):
Sure.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
staff, and boards of a thousand artsorganizations, what would it be?
It would be that the importanceof listening cannot be
understated,
and I really do believethat part of why the arts
(01:01:47):
are so powerful is because they offer the
opportunity to see new, different,
diverse stories show up in front of us.
And as we listen more,
we build empathy and openness to what that
then can allow us to do andcan allow future leaders to do.
(01:02:09):
So the power of listeningcannot be understated.
Well said. You're aninspiration to me, Priya,
and I'm sure to otherslistening to this episode.
Thank you, Christopher.
Thanks, boss. We'll seeyou back at our desks.
Okay, sounds great.
Bye.
Bye.
(01:02:33):
Hello everyone, it's me, Dan here,
back with another round ofCI-lebrity Sightings. CI...
'lebrity... like celebrity.I'll stop explaining it.
Here are some of our favorite news storiesfeaturing CI clients in 60 seconds or
less. First up,
Atlanta Symphony Orchestra'smusic director Nathalie Stutzmann was featured on
WSBTV for making history asonly the second woman to lead a
(01:02:57):
major American orchestra.Way to go, Nathalie! Next,
Ballet BC just receivedthe largest donation in its
37-year history,
which according to Stir Magazine willgo toward full-year contracts and salary
increases for its dancers. And finally,
a number of our friends in the BayArea were mentioned in the New York
(01:03:19):
Times-heard of it?-in an articleentitled "San Francisco's Arts
Institutions Are Slowly Building Back,"which name drops American Conservatory
Theater, San Francisco Opera, SanFrancisco Symphony, and SF MoMA.
We're so proud of these clients for theirlandmark accomplishments and tireless
commitments to movingtheir art forms forward.
(01:03:40):
Got a story that deserves a shout out?Well, tag us on social and let us know.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
(01:04:02):
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
(01:04:23):
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and TikTok for regular contentto help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacityinteractive.com so you never
miss an update. And ifyou haven't already,
(01:04:44):
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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