April 2, 2024 • 40 mins
Holding the artistic reins of an organization is no easy feat—especially when that organization has been around for generations and has a deep-rooted legacy. As a leader, how do you honor the rich history of your institution while effectively steering it into the future?
As New York City Ballet celebrates its 75th anniversary season, Artistic Director Jonathan Stafford reflects on the Company’s continued evolution, how they’ve adapted to this new digital era, and the unique challenges of leading such a storied cultural entity.
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Hi everyone, it's Christopher Williams.
Last month I had the absolute pleasureof sitting down with Jonathan Stafford,
the artistic director of New York CityBallet and the School of American Ballet.
As a diehard balletomane myself, Ican't wait to share this with you.
Jonathan is not only an accomplishedand well-respected figure in the dance
(01:15):
world,
but he's also a naturallywarm and charismatic leader who genuinely cares about
the wellbeing of his team andthe future of City Ballet.
Jonathan and I covered a lotof ground in this conversation.
You'll hear about New York CityBallet's approach to programming,
the digital transformationof their marketing,
and how the company navigates the powerand complexity of today's social media.
(01:39):
We'll also touch on somebroader leadership lessons that I think everybody can
relate to,
like ways to combat imposter syndromeand grow more comfortable taking risks.
I personally found this interview soinspiring and I hope you will too.
So without further ado, hereis... Jonathan Stafford.
(02:03):
Jonathan Stafford, welcome to thepodcast. Welcome to CI to Eye.
Thanks so much for having me. Lookingforward to talking with you today.
I have to tell-well,
listeners of this podcast will not besurprised to hear me say that I am a
balletomane, and in particular,
I am a New York City Ballet super fan. So
(02:24):
I will try to temper some of my excitementabout being able to spend time with
you today. But I'd love to talk aboutyou personally just a little bit.
Tell us how you came toballet in the first place.
Sure.
So I grew up in a small townin central Pennsylvania and my
younger sister actuallystarted with ballet.
I was dragged along toher early classes and to
(02:49):
her performances,
and I started to be somewhatinterested in what I was seeing
on the stage.
And there was one moment wherethe advanced male dancer in the
school was just flying around the stage,was just doing this really cool piece.
It was cool music, it wasjust flying around the stage.
And I said to my parents thatnight, I think I want to try ballet.
(03:12):
And I was not coordinated.
I was not good at sportsbecause I was tall for my age.
I was very gangly. I had verylong legs proportionately,
and I had trouble with coordinationand I started ballet and instantly
my body, my mind, everything-myenergy took to it.
And then I just started to love thefreedom of the movement. Once you get a
(03:36):
little more accomplished,
you can fly around theroom like the dancer I saw.
And it just happened to bea very good ballet school,
really accomplished ballet school thattrains professional-level dancers.
So I always had this idea inmy mind that I really liked it,
but I wasn't really thinkingof being a professional dancer.
And then I saw New York City Balletperform live for the first time when I was
(03:59):
15 and I called my parents that dayand I said, that's what I want to do.
I want to be a dancer. I wantto join New York City Ballet.
And a few years later,the dream came true.
I came up to SAB when I was 17 so Icould go through the school and then was
named an apprentice whenI was 18 and had a 16 year
(04:20):
career. And my sister,
who was the one sort of responsiblefor getting me into ballet,
she also joined New York City Ballet andwas a very accomplished dancer for many
years.
So at the end of your dancingcareer, when you stepped back,
what did you actually think yourtransition was actually going to be?
Well, my knees started to hurtquite a bit as I was dancing.
(04:42):
That was the thing thatkind of pushed me out was,
I just was having problems withmy knees and I was a principal
dancer, so I was doing reallyhard repertory. I loved it.
I loved all the partnering, thejumping, the dancing. I loved it all,
but my body was startingto break down a little bit.
And I had gotten mydegree in organizational leadership and I had started
teaching at SAB. That was a keymoment for me. I loved teaching.
(05:06):
I loved giving back the informationthat had been given to me.
I loved being involved and investedin the students and their growth
and development, teaching also. And then
an opportunity was presented to me byPeter, by our former artistic director,
(05:27):
to potentially become a rehearsal directorhere. So that really planted a seed
as like, I have a future to go to.I have another step I can go to.
And then I was getting to the pointwhere I would do a hard show and I could
hardly move the next day. I couldn'tstraighten my knee in bed at night,
and I just was like, Ican't do this anymore.
(05:50):
I really was not fulfilled after a show
as much as I had used to be.
I was starting to feel myathletic ability slip a bit,
and I was way more fulfilled withthe teaching and coaching dancers.
And so I picked a date, retired,
and then the next daymoved into my new role,
(06:13):
and I was really fortunate tohave that seamless transition.
Would you say your transition and how...
I'll call it smooth forlack of a better word...
but is that unusual for dancersto be able to transition into
something that still feels as satisfying?
I guess I would speculate that a lot ofdancers really mourn that moment when
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they have to step away from the stage.
For sure. And there is no replicating it.
And that's something I had tocome to terms with right away.
There's just no replicatingthat feeling you get.
And now it's like when I watch the companyand I have the nerves that I used to
feel as a performer, I have the nerveswatching them, wanting it to go well,
desperately wanting them to be happywith their performance because I know how
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much work they put into it and I wantthem to walk away feeling good about what
they did. And those are thenerves I feel, but it's different.
And the adrenaline rush you get thatI get now being on the other side is
different than what I got as a performer.
What is a bit unusual forthose transitions is there's just not a lot of jobs
out there for former dancers, nomatter how accomplished they are.
(07:18):
To step into a role asa rehearsal director,
to step into a role as ateacher at a major dance school,
and then eventually to step into anartistic director role... I mean,
there's only I think like 30 balletcompanies in the whole country.
So I was very lucky in terms of timing.
I do feel like I did the work to setmyself up to be ready if an opportunity
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came up.
That was always my goal as I was goingto college and as I was paying attention
to things here in the company.I always would think to myself,
if the opportunity ever comes up, whichis a dream, but if it ever comes up,
I want to at least be ready for it.
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You are the artistic director of New YorkCity Ballet and also of the School of
American Ballet. Am I correctyou are the third in history?
I am the third.
That's incredible.
Which, when you think of 75 years ofthe company, 90 years of the school,
just being the third does carry a lotof weight with it. And it was something
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that really sunk in whenI was named to this role.
And I think also you've said youare the first American born and
the first to come out ofthe school as well, right?
That's right.
First American born leaderof both organizations
and the first SAB alumnito be at the helm,
(08:47):
which is something thatBalanchine always desired,
that those who were taking the schoolforward would have trained at the school,
danced in company, and thencame back to the school.
And you do this along withyour partner, Wendy Whelan,
who is a legend in and of herself.
Yeah,
it was clear when we were goingthrough the search process,
(09:09):
both Wendy and I had a lot ofmutual respect for each other,
and as they were lookingat the job description,
they were looking at thedemands on that one person.
What we found was that it's just goingto operate and function better with two
people really working as partners,and that's how we see each other.
I'm the artistic director, she'sthe associate artistic director,
(09:30):
but everything we'rereally doing together,
and it's worked really remarkably well.
And we didn't know eachother so well five years ago.
We both danced in the company andI had always looked up to her.
She was such a role model,
and continues to be that rolemodel for me and for everyone else.
Leadership positions can be so isolating.
(09:53):
I think if you've never been in one, youmay not know that, but it is isolating.
So it must be nice tohave a partner in that.
It can be isolating. Youhear that from everyone.
I dealt with a bit of impostersyndrome, honestly, early on.
I struggled at times tobelieve that I had what it took
(10:13):
to be the next leader.
And having someone like Wendy totalk through those anxious moments,
those moments of, 'I'mnot sure what to do here.
I just have no experiencewith this specific issue.
Let's talk through it.' Andshe really helped me always.
We used to say-she has a couch in heroffice, and it was my therapy couch.
(10:34):
I would just knock on her door and say,'Wendy, we gotta talk.' And I would go.
And that's been a constantin our partnership,
is we're just both an open bookwith each other and share everything
necessary for us toboth excel in our roles.
That's really wonderful.
I value so much that you havesaid that you've suffered from
(10:57):
imposter syndrome.
I think it's very true for almost allleaders and many people probably wouldn't
say it out loud, so I thinkthat's really important.
One thing that was absolutely criticalto me too is I worked with executive
coaches, and I've worked with afew over the now six plus years,
counting the interim timethat I've been in this role.
And I would recommend that to anybody.
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Nobody has all the answers. Nomatter how much experience you have,
no matter how thoughtfulyou are about things,
no matter how good your instincts are,
there's still things thatare going to stump you.
And those really good executivecoaches, you walk away from a session,
as I did with mine,
feeling more confident and just bouncing
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ideas, role playing, saying, 'Okay,
let's put ourselves in this person's shoesthat you now need to have this really
difficult conversation with. How can wedo it with sensitivity, with empathy,
but also being really honestand direct?' So that has been a
huge, huge help for both Wendy and I.
Yes, a hundred percent. We havea culture of doing that as well.
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And another thing that coaches dofor us is really help us see blind
spots. They are able to say things to usthat we are not bringing to the table,
but things they can very much see inus that help us just be better leaders,
especially in today's world.So that's fascinating to hear.
It would be interesting, I think,
for people who maybe are not soentrenched in ballet to understand:
(12:24):
what does it mean to followsomebody like Balanchine
who held this role-first ofall, who founded the company,
and who held this role for so longand has such an incredible global
reputation? Does it feelhaunted in that office?
Early on it was a bit terrifying because
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there's not a lot of room for mistakes.Not only is it really well respected,
but our patrons who've been comingto the ballet for many years expect a
certain level of quality,
expect the Balanchine ballets tolook their best at New York City
Ballet because if they don't looktheir best here, what are we doing?
That's our history. That's whatwe're supposed to be the best at.
(13:09):
But it's also invigorating.
I find that I come in to workand I haven't had a single day
in six plus years where I've walked inthe door and been filled with dread,
or thought, 'I really would ratherbe somewhere else right now.'.
What a gift.
And I've always been proudto know that I've never felt,
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no matter how hard of a day I have,
or sometimes at the end of theday where you just feel like, wow,
I've got some stuff wrong today. But I'vegotten used to that more. Like, okay,
that didn't go as well as I would'vehoped. Here's how I do it better,
as opposed to just wallowing inthe frustration of something.
And it is a pressure and a responsibilitythat feels pretty huge most of the
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time. But it's also excitingand invigorating and I mean,
it's the dream job. I've gottensort of past the moment of like,
is this really happening?
That happened a bit inthe first couple of years.
'I can't believe Iactually achieved this.'
But now it's more, I'm justsuper focused on the work,
(14:17):
focused on being better each day,
helping those around me be ableto be at their best each day and
try to use those teachable moments tohelp somebody feel even more confident in
their work going forward.
Yeah. When you were a youngerdancer, what were you thinking, like,
'If I ever had this job,what would I change?
(14:39):
How could I make this better?'Because you can do that now.
Yeah. And fortunately, I wassort of thinking that way,
mostly because I was going toFordham to get my college degree
while I was dancing.
And I majored in organizationalleadership and I was so just
fascinated by that,
(14:59):
shifting my brain from being adancer and following the rules and
just really trying to do what you're toldto do and being at your best that way,
to thinking much more broadly outside ofmyself and what this organization means
to each person and howit's managed, how it's run,
what works really welland what maybe doesn't.
(15:22):
And in the course of pursuing thatdegree, I really thought of, okay,
if I ever have some responsibility,
here's something I would like to change.
And I started doing some of thateven before I was in this role,
where we started an apprenticementorship program, for example.
You have so much support as a young personall the way up through 'til when you
(15:42):
leave the school,
and then you get in the company andit was a little bit of sink or swim.
So it's like,
how can we put the dancers ona better path to be successful?
That was one of the things I was reallyproud of before I was even in this role,
was creating and leading this program.
And more communication with thedancers. We never had evaluations.
(16:04):
We were not given regularfeedback about how to
improve. So it was hard to know whereyou stood or what you needed to work on.
So right away as interim, it wasone of the first things I did,
was establish dancer evaluations andstart talking to the dancers about what
we're seeing and allow them totalk about what they're working on,
and be fully invested ineach of their success,
(16:26):
their development,
and how we help give them the buildingblocks to get to where they want to get
to.
When you think about how youwant dancers to feel about
the culture that you andWendy are cultivating,
what do you want that to feel like?
I want them to feelsupported, uplifted, seen,
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and heard.
And I want them to feel like they can bethemselves and not try to fit into some
other ideal of what either they think wewant or they think they're supposed to
be. The dancers are at their best onstage when they can be vulnerable.
You have to be vulnerable as an artist.You have to be willing to take risks.
(17:08):
You have to be willing to fail.
So providing a space wherethey feel safe to fail,
they feel safe to take chances. Wewant to see people on the stage.
We don't want to see robots orcogs in a machine where every
last finger is in the exact sameplace as the person next to them.
We want to see some freedom, wewant to see some individuality.
(17:33):
I kind of want to ask you alittle bit about programming.
Every time I get a City Ballet brochure,
it literally always sits right hereon my desk until that season is over.
And I always wonder, howdoes this all come together?
Every single mixed rep program, how doyou all approach this? What goes into it?
(17:55):
Well, thankfully that's Wendy's...one of her real areas of expertise.
So she takes a lead on programming,
and what Wendy reallylooks at is connections.
What connects those three or fourballets, those mixed rep programs,
which we mostly do. We do a fewfull lengths a year, but that's it.
So much of our daily lives is thesemixed rep programs that need to
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work with the production demands,
need to work with the orchestraldemands. When I started programming,
I was like, oh my gosh, we haveall these ballets to pick from,
this is just going to befun. It's not fun. I mean,
I think there's some enjoymentin putting programs together,
but it's so tedious. It'sa months-long process.
It has to go through multiple departments,
(18:38):
multiple layers of edits and adjustments,
because the other thingis we have subscribers.
We have these great fans. We can't juststart repeating the same works on their
subscription night, so that's complicated.
Like this is the programwe really want to do,
but that one ballet hits thissubscription from one season to the next,
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so we can't do it. We have tofigure out a different way.
We think about the dancerswe have, we think about,
there are some ballets in the rep thatreally feature roles that are best
performed by a shorterdancer, for example,
or best performed by a taller dancer.
So we can't have a season with justrep for only the tall dancers.,
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and then the dancers who typicallywould do this other rep are just left on
the sidelines the whole season.So we have to look at that.
And then Wendy and I love this becausemusic has always been a leading
focus for the company,and with Balanchine,
the most important thingwas the music matters first,
then the steps come. So she reallylooks at how the music on a program
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fits together so that there'shopefully a flow through the
program,
that the one pieceaccentuates the other piece,
or that there's something interestingabout how they're paired together,
both the dancing and the music,
and that there's nothing that feels justjarring or out of place on a program.
(20:05):
Like 'Why did that end up there?
That doesn't fit with everythingelse.' We also think about,
as we're programming, what is agateway performance, a gateway ballet?
What is something that could get a newaudience in here that's never been in
here before? Because we havethis great base of people,
but we have to always be cultivatingand building, as you know.
We recently did a collaborationwith Solange, Beyonce's sister,
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who created the music for a piece,
but it was very successful inthat throughout that first run,
70% of single ticket buyerswere new to file. Which is
huge for us. But we programmedit-hoping that that would
happen-strategically withone of our tried and true,
most iconic classic Balanchineworks, Symphony in C.
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Complete polar opposite towhat people were coming to see,
but also showed the companyoff utilizing our strengths.
And people were saying, "Oh mygosh, I came to see Solange,
but I was blown away by Symphony inC." So trying to show an audience
not only something new,
an exciting collaboration thatgets them into the theater,
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but give them a little taste of what wedo throughout the rest of the year and
what we're really good at.
And that kind of approachis also really important.
Is it hard for you because you are,I mean, you're the ultimate insider.
Is it hard for you to understandwhat might appeal to someone who's a
hundred percent new to ballet?
(21:36):
It is.
I love coming into my seat-I sit in theback of the first ring at every show-and
I love coming into myseat, and I just sit there.
I don't go on my phone five, 10minutes before the show starts.
And I just look around. I lovejust looking around the theater,
looking around the first ring,looking to see who's there,
what they're talking aboutbefore the show starts,
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just getting an idea of who they are andtrying to figure out why they're here,
what made them come in.Because it is really hard.
I have those things that I love thatI feel like make a great impact,
and I love being sort of ananonymous fly on the wall.
I love sometimes when I leave the theaterand people don't know who I am and I
hear what they're sayingabout what they saw,
(22:18):
and it is really largely mostly positive.
And hearing what on that program they'retalking about when they walk out the
door. I try to use that as agauge. But yeah, it's hard.
It is hard to put myself in the shoesof someone who's never seen the company
before and how they might receivewhat we put on that night.
One of the things I'd love to ask you is,
if you find yourself with a stranger toballet that says one of those classic
(22:43):
questions like what does this dance mean?
Something that's just a contemporarypiece or a neoclassical piece that doesn't
necessarily have a narrative.How do you answer that question?
I say to them...
and sometimes I have to preview a programthat's all abstract works for a group
of donors or one of our corporatesponsors, anything like that. And I say,
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the beauty of this work is it allowseach audience member to feel the way
they want to feel about it,
to create a narrative if theyfeel that there is one there,
instead of just being told a very genericstory that you're supposed to follow
along with. Those ballets,
obviously The Nutcracker is incrediblyimportant for us, Swan Lake,
something like that where thereis a story that's easy to follow.
(23:27):
But so many people I talk to,
what they really fall in love withis our abstract work because you can
feel something different every timeyou watch it based on who's dancing it.
And if you want to justbe transported away,
even the abstract works can dothat because of the beauty of the
music, the beauty of thechoreography and the dancing,
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and the individuality thatI talked about before.
And I love hearing that fromaudience members who say,
"I can't wait to see thisdancer in this ballet.
I've always wanted to see them in thatballet." And I love that they're that in
tune with each of our dancers,
and they're excited about how thatdancer is going to dance that ballet.
Your career at City Ballet certainly
(24:13):
predated digital transformation.
You and Wendy certainlyhave experienced what it's
like to sell ballet to the public
both in a traditional analog approach and
certainly how dramatically that haschanged on the other side of digital
(24:34):
transformation today.
But I'm just curious to hearwhat the process of digital
transformation felt like to youover the course of your career.
It was hard. It was hard to know
how people were going to consumeand what would attract them to
us, because things change sofast, as you know. And we just...
(24:58):
seeing that with our dancers,how can we harness that?
Because they have so manyfollowers, some of them.
How can they harness being a dancerat New York City Ballet for their own
feeds and their own brand developmentstuff? How can we work together?
How do we reach more eyeballs? Howdo we get more people interested?
(25:19):
How well are our feeds being curated?
And then when we put ourmarketing efforts out there,
it's got to look likeNew York City Ballet.
So when someone looks at it right away,they know what they're looking at.
But it still has to be innovative. I mean,
people are not okay withyou doing the same thing.
We just have to shout out Karen Girty,our senior director of marketing,
because she's just as good as it gets.
(25:39):
Yes. Super fan!
And she's built a great team aroundher. The artists we collaborate with,
the directors we collaboratewith, the short films we do...
It's just really top notch,
and we're really lucky to have such agood team here and be able to just keep up
with the ever, everevolving trends out there.
(26:01):
It's a lot.
What goes into managing just the
power of social amplificationthat dancers have in
their own hands? And as you say,
so many of the dancershave massive followings.
What is the push pull in thatfor you all as a company?
(26:24):
What has the friction been? Whatmust be the power of some of that?
It is tricky because they are themselves.
They curate their feed as ifthey're in a way an independent
operator, an independent employee,
but every single one of themrepresents New York City Ballet,
has New York City Ballet on their name,
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talks all about their performancesat New York City Ballet and stuff.
So how does that relationship betweenthe organization and the employee work
when they are public figures?So where are the boundaries?
What can you say? Whatshould you shy away from?
How do you all navigate that?Do you have systems in place?
I can imagine there are peoplelistening, being like, how do you do it?
(27:09):
How do you navigate that? Becauseyou are particularly public.
There's such a brightlight on the company.
We don't have enough systems in place,but it's something we're working on.
I mean, we're doing strategic planningaround digital strategy as we speak,
and really
(27:30):
our dancers are unionized. So there'sa collective bargaining agreement.
So something we didn't have before,
we now have a code ofconduct as part of that.
And what's laid out there is how thedancers are representatives of the
company in their public lives andprivate lives to a certain extent.
And there's a social media policy inthere, what's allowed to be filmed,
(27:51):
what's not allowed to be filmed,what's allowed to be posted,
what's not allowed to be posted becauseof permissions, because of copyright,
because of respecting yourcolleagues' privacy. I mean,
our dancers are really thoughtful forthe most part, and are really good,
and do want to amplify the companyin the best light possible,
not just amplify themselves. Theyunderstand their role in that place.
(28:14):
And then when somethinghappens that's a little bumpy,
we try to learn from it and we try touse it as a moment where everybody can
learn from it about maybesomething to avoid in the future.
But walking that line isreally complicated. So I mean,
having a union workforce helps becausethere are policies and protocols in
place just because of thecollective bargaining agreement.
(28:38):
So there is an understanding of what'snot only allowed, but what's possible.
And we just keep experimenting.
In sports,
they talk about something called theStar System where you really rely
on some of the marquee value ofcertain players. And I always wonder,
how are you thinkingabout that internally?
(28:59):
What's the friction for actually takingadvantage of some of that so that you
don't sort of 'other' any of the dancers?
Is this something that youguys think about or talk about?
We do, more so now thanI think before. So yes,
we need to try to highlightthose beautiful artistic collaborations that happen
(29:20):
and those dancers that comeup, rise through the ranks,
come up out of the corps,
and are the ones that are goingto take this company forward.
But we can't forget aboutthe corpse de ballet.
We can't forget about what we docall the backbone of the company,
that holds the group collectivelyat a really high level.
And so we do really try to focus on
(29:43):
everybody in our marketing efforts.We try to focus on everybody,
and we're much more based aroundthe importance of the ballet and the
success of the ballet thanthe importance of one dancer.
And it doesn't matter what they dance,they're always going to be great.
It's like we just want the caliber ofour ballets to be as high as the caliber
of our dancers.Maybe in some other companies,
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there's that lead dancer that dances thosefew full lengths a year or something.
That's what someone goes to see. Theygo see the dancer, not the ballet.
In most cases, we have people, yes,they come to see certain dancers,
but they come to see the ballets overand over again, which is really great.
But it is tricky,
and in this age of visibilityacross everyone in the company,
(30:26):
managing and harnessing a stardancer who has a big following,
who people do come to see,
while also not ignoring or ostracizingthe other dancers in the company who are
working just as hard and who arejust as excellent in their work.
I want to talk aboutyour brand really quick.
I remember the moment in time, Ican't remember how many years ago,
(30:47):
when the brand of New YorkCity Ballet was reimagined,
and I just love it. It'sone of my favorites.
I think it might be one of the best visualidentities of any arts organization.
Tell me what you strivefor consumers to take away
from the identity you all have cultivated.
Well, we have to walk that line betweengiving them something fresh, innovative,
(31:12):
exciting, while also making surethey know it's New York City Ballet,
but it has to be dynamic.
We can't come up withsomething that feels stayed.
You have to feel the energy of NewYork City Ballet come through the page.
You have to feel that the dancersare able to present that...
kind of what's asked of them, and whythey are at the top of their game,
(31:34):
which is that really clear,dynamic movement quality.
And it's hard to do.
It's hard to do in a picture or hard todo in something that is a still shot.
There's even, with our 75th anniversary,
that lineup of dancers that's on thefront of our theater and on the brochures
and stuff. It is themjust standing in place.
(31:54):
But there's still something about it.
There's like an attitude that'svery clearly New York City Ballet.
There's a freshness as you lookacross the lineup of dancers,
and it feels very current.
How do you specificallywork across marketing?
As a marketing person myself,
what does it mean to you to work acrossthat department given what they need to
(32:17):
do for everyone?
We're just really honest with eachother, honest about what we need to see.
I try to trust my instinct of what hitsme when I look at an image or I look at
a video treatment or something like that,
trying to step out of my artisticdirectorship role and just be a consumer.
(32:37):
But just trying to look atit as objectively as possible because we're trying to
reach the broadest group as possible.
And while we do do verytargeted marketing, of course,
to specific groups of our audience,the overall brand identity, all that,
stays very consistent.
(32:57):
It's a busy time for you all.
It is New York CityBallet's 75th anniversary.
It's the School of AmericanBallet's 90th anniversary.
You had a big eventthis week, did you not?
We did. Still recovering from it.
On Monday we did a stage productionunlike anything we've done at the school
(33:18):
before.
And it was the ball that you guyshave every year for the school, yes?
Yeah, but an upgraded versionfor the 90th anniversary.
Amazing. Amazing. It's so incrediblethat it has been around for that long.
I think for a lot of people,
they may be surprised to know how muchlonger than the actual company it has
been around.
(33:38):
Yeah, it was really important toGeorge Balanchine and Lincoln Kirstein.
They were very thoughtful in how theywanted to establish a performance company,
but very thoughtful abouttheir idea of creating an
identity for that company. Andthat comes with the dancers,
and the dancers have tobe trained a certain way,
and so they started building areal pipeline of dancers that
(34:00):
then were able to eventuallypopulate the company.
And that's what we still do today.
We hire really exclusively from theSchool of American Ballet into the
company because they're trained ina way that they can be successful.
What do you think is going to behappening at City Ballet in the next
five years?
What can we expect that may notbe on anyone's radar and might
(34:24):
change the paradigm?
Well, we have two of the most importantcreative voices in classical ballet with
Justin Peck and Alexei Ratmansky herein-house now, which is huge for us.
I mean, that's a game changerfor us to have those two icons,
leading voices who are going to experimentand do all kinds of fun things here
(34:45):
in the company and push each otherand push the dancers and push us as an
institution forward.
I think one thing that we're tryingreally hard to do is be a bit more
curatorial with our new works and bereally strategic in how they roll out so
that they have a better chanceof success. And not just...
Sometimes City Ballet throws newworks out at such a high rate,
(35:10):
maybe they didn't have the time theyneeded to really be as good as they could
have been if they'd gotten abit more time, a bit more care,
a bit more focus of how they get fromcreation to the stage. So that's a bit of
a shift for us where we're actuallydoing slightly fewer new works going
forward,
but really focusing our time andresources on each one so that each one
(35:32):
can be as successful as possible.
But what I'm really excited aboutis how we stay fresh and edgy
and at the cutting edge ofthe classical ballet world.
And I think we have a greatsense of momentum here.
I think we need to have another...
we want to have anotherhigh profile collaboration
(35:53):
down the road.
It takes sometimes years of planningto get something like that to come
together, but we'rereally focused on that.
We've made great stridesin building our audience,
like audience development.
Our audience is younger thanit's ever been on record,
and it's the youngest oncampus at Lincoln Center,
(36:14):
in terms of our demographics.
And so what do we do with that now?So we've got the people in the building,
how do we keep them? Howdo we cultivate them?
What kind of partnerships withother brands, corporations,
things that are really importantto us? Those are down the road.
We've got some reallygreat ones in the works,
(36:34):
some ideas that we're just starting toflesh out that could be game changing for
our brand,
and then what's the next generationof dancers going to look like?
And we've got so much talentin the corpse de ballet.
I've never seen the corpse this talented,
but also this unique andindividual and strong,
(36:54):
but they also work really welltogether. So there's that individuality.
But they work really well as a group.
And we've done some ballets thisseason where I'm just like, wow,
the future looks really bright.We're never going to rest.
We're never going to sit backand say, okay, we've done it,
now we can just ride it out. And Ilove that about this organization.
We're always like, okay,so that went really well,
(37:16):
but how are we going todo it better next year?
Or how are we going todo it better next time?
Or what more can we add towhat we're doing well already?
Not only maintaining alevel of excellence, but striving for more. And again,
it's what makes me excited towalk into the theater every day,
even though I know it's likeI have 13 meetings today.
It's going to be a long day,
but I'm still really excitedto come in every day to work.
(37:40):
That's wonderful. We have run out of time,
so we have reached what we call yourCI to Eye moment. So the question is,
if you could broadcast one message tothe artistic and executive directors,
leadership teams, staff,
and boards of a thousand artsorganizations, what would it be?
(38:01):
Be courageous.
I think it's so nervy to sit in this chair
sometimes, knowing that peopleare not going to like what you do,
knowing that dancers are goingto be unhappy with casting,
knowing that there could be boardmembers who don't like the most recent
commission you did, knowing thatyou can't keep everybody happy,
(38:21):
but you have to have thecourage to go for it,
especially in the arts and with what'sgoing on in our world right now.
We have to put what we believeis beautiful out there.
We have to put what we believe isinteresting, what sends a message,
what tells a story, whatuplifts something or somebody...
we have to put it out there.We cannot play it safe.
(38:43):
Performing arts organizations,the minute you become too safe,
you become irrelevant andyou fade away. Prudency,
thoughtfulness, not beingimpulsive, of course. As a leader,
you have to be reallycareful with certain things,
but you can't just play it safewith every decision you make.
That's very inspiring. Beautiful,and well said. Jonathan Stafford,
(39:07):
artistic director at New York City Ballet,
thank you so much for spendingtime with us today. Thank you.
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
It's great to talk about the company andto talk to someone who's such a fan and
believes in what we do. I don'tever take that for granted,
that there's so many of youwho find joy in what we do,
and it makes me continueto stay focused and
(39:30):
enthused for what we'redoing. So thank you.
Absolutely. A pleasure. Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
(39:53):
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
(40:14):
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, andYouTube for regular content to help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacity interactive dot com so you
never miss an update. Andif you haven't already,
(40:34):
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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we nurture what we love-and CapacityInteractive's Boot Camp is the best way to
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a ticket to Boot Camp is more than aticket to the leading conference for our
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(00:23):
A ticket to connecting withnew, bright-eyed audiences.
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Save your spot at capacity interactiveboot camp dot com. See you there!
(00:55):
Hi everyone, it's Christopher Williams.
Last month I had the absolute pleasureof sitting down with Jonathan Stafford,
the artistic director of New York CityBallet and the School of American Ballet.
As a diehard balletomane myself, Ican't wait to share this with you.
Jonathan is not only an accomplishedand well-respected figure in the dance
(01:15):
world,
but he's also a naturallywarm and charismatic leader who genuinely cares about
the wellbeing of his team andthe future of City Ballet.
Jonathan and I covered a lotof ground in this conversation.
You'll hear about New York CityBallet's approach to programming,
the digital transformationof their marketing,
and how the company navigates the powerand complexity of today's social media.
(01:39):
We'll also touch on somebroader leadership lessons that I think everybody can
relate to,
like ways to combat imposter syndromeand grow more comfortable taking risks.
I personally found this interview soinspiring and I hope you will too.
So without further ado, hereis... Jonathan Stafford.
(02:03):
Jonathan Stafford, welcome to thepodcast. Welcome to CI to Eye.
Thanks so much for having me. Lookingforward to talking with you today.
I have to tell-well,
listeners of this podcast will not besurprised to hear me say that I am a
balletomane, and in particular,
I am a New York City Ballet super fan. So
(02:24):
I will try to temper some of my excitementabout being able to spend time with
you today. But I'd love to talk aboutyou personally just a little bit.
Tell us how you came toballet in the first place.
Sure.
So I grew up in a small townin central Pennsylvania and my
younger sister actuallystarted with ballet.
I was dragged along toher early classes and to
(02:49):
her performances,
and I started to be somewhatinterested in what I was seeing
on the stage.
And there was one moment wherethe advanced male dancer in the
school was just flying around the stage,was just doing this really cool piece.
It was cool music, it wasjust flying around the stage.
And I said to my parents thatnight, I think I want to try ballet.
(03:12):
And I was not coordinated.
I was not good at sportsbecause I was tall for my age.
I was very gangly. I had verylong legs proportionately,
and I had trouble with coordinationand I started ballet and instantly
my body, my mind, everything-myenergy took to it.
And then I just started to love thefreedom of the movement. Once you get a
(03:36):
little more accomplished,
you can fly around theroom like the dancer I saw.
And it just happened to bea very good ballet school,
really accomplished ballet school thattrains professional-level dancers.
So I always had this idea inmy mind that I really liked it,
but I wasn't really thinkingof being a professional dancer.
And then I saw New York City Balletperform live for the first time when I was
(03:59):
15 and I called my parents that dayand I said, that's what I want to do.
I want to be a dancer. I wantto join New York City Ballet.
And a few years later,the dream came true.
I came up to SAB when I was 17 so Icould go through the school and then was
named an apprentice whenI was 18 and had a 16 year
(04:20):
career. And my sister,
who was the one sort of responsiblefor getting me into ballet,
she also joined New York City Ballet andwas a very accomplished dancer for many
years.
So at the end of your dancingcareer, when you stepped back,
what did you actually think yourtransition was actually going to be?
Well, my knees started to hurtquite a bit as I was dancing.
(04:42):
That was the thing thatkind of pushed me out was,
I just was having problems withmy knees and I was a principal
dancer, so I was doing reallyhard repertory. I loved it.
I loved all the partnering, thejumping, the dancing. I loved it all,
but my body was startingto break down a little bit.
And I had gotten mydegree in organizational leadership and I had started
teaching at SAB. That was a keymoment for me. I loved teaching.
(05:06):
I loved giving back the informationthat had been given to me.
I loved being involved and investedin the students and their growth
and development, teaching also. And then
an opportunity was presented to me byPeter, by our former artistic director,
(05:27):
to potentially become a rehearsal directorhere. So that really planted a seed
as like, I have a future to go to.I have another step I can go to.
And then I was getting to the pointwhere I would do a hard show and I could
hardly move the next day. I couldn'tstraighten my knee in bed at night,
and I just was like, Ican't do this anymore.
(05:50):
I really was not fulfilled after a show
as much as I had used to be.
I was starting to feel myathletic ability slip a bit,
and I was way more fulfilled withthe teaching and coaching dancers.
And so I picked a date, retired,
and then the next daymoved into my new role,
(06:13):
and I was really fortunate tohave that seamless transition.
Would you say your transition and how...
I'll call it smooth forlack of a better word...
but is that unusual for dancersto be able to transition into
something that still feels as satisfying?
I guess I would speculate that a lot ofdancers really mourn that moment when
(06:33):
they have to step away from the stage.
For sure. And there is no replicating it.
And that's something I had tocome to terms with right away.
There's just no replicatingthat feeling you get.
And now it's like when I watch the companyand I have the nerves that I used to
feel as a performer, I have the nerveswatching them, wanting it to go well,
desperately wanting them to be happywith their performance because I know how
(06:54):
much work they put into it and I wantthem to walk away feeling good about what
they did. And those are thenerves I feel, but it's different.
And the adrenaline rush you get thatI get now being on the other side is
different than what I got as a performer.
What is a bit unusual forthose transitions is there's just not a lot of jobs
out there for former dancers, nomatter how accomplished they are.
(07:18):
To step into a role asa rehearsal director,
to step into a role as ateacher at a major dance school,
and then eventually to step into anartistic director role... I mean,
there's only I think like 30 balletcompanies in the whole country.
So I was very lucky in terms of timing.
I do feel like I did the work to setmyself up to be ready if an opportunity
(07:40):
came up.
That was always my goal as I was goingto college and as I was paying attention
to things here in the company.I always would think to myself,
if the opportunity ever comes up, whichis a dream, but if it ever comes up,
I want to at least be ready for it.
(08:03):
You are the artistic director of New YorkCity Ballet and also of the School of
American Ballet. Am I correctyou are the third in history?
I am the third.
That's incredible.
Which, when you think of 75 years ofthe company, 90 years of the school,
just being the third does carry a lotof weight with it. And it was something
(08:26):
that really sunk in whenI was named to this role.
And I think also you've said youare the first American born and
the first to come out ofthe school as well, right?
That's right.
First American born leaderof both organizations
and the first SAB alumnito be at the helm,
(08:47):
which is something thatBalanchine always desired,
that those who were taking the schoolforward would have trained at the school,
danced in company, and thencame back to the school.
And you do this along withyour partner, Wendy Whelan,
who is a legend in and of herself.
Yeah,
it was clear when we were goingthrough the search process,
(09:09):
both Wendy and I had a lot ofmutual respect for each other,
and as they were lookingat the job description,
they were looking at thedemands on that one person.
What we found was that it's just goingto operate and function better with two
people really working as partners,and that's how we see each other.
I'm the artistic director, she'sthe associate artistic director,
(09:30):
but everything we'rereally doing together,
and it's worked really remarkably well.
And we didn't know eachother so well five years ago.
We both danced in the company andI had always looked up to her.
She was such a role model,
and continues to be that rolemodel for me and for everyone else.
Leadership positions can be so isolating.
(09:53):
I think if you've never been in one, youmay not know that, but it is isolating.
So it must be nice tohave a partner in that.
It can be isolating. Youhear that from everyone.
I dealt with a bit of impostersyndrome, honestly, early on.
I struggled at times tobelieve that I had what it took
(10:13):
to be the next leader.
And having someone like Wendy totalk through those anxious moments,
those moments of, 'I'mnot sure what to do here.
I just have no experiencewith this specific issue.
Let's talk through it.' Andshe really helped me always.
We used to say-she has a couch in heroffice, and it was my therapy couch.
(10:34):
I would just knock on her door and say,'Wendy, we gotta talk.' And I would go.
And that's been a constantin our partnership,
is we're just both an open bookwith each other and share everything
necessary for us toboth excel in our roles.
That's really wonderful.
I value so much that you havesaid that you've suffered from
(10:57):
imposter syndrome.
I think it's very true for almost allleaders and many people probably wouldn't
say it out loud, so I thinkthat's really important.
One thing that was absolutely criticalto me too is I worked with executive
coaches, and I've worked with afew over the now six plus years,
counting the interim timethat I've been in this role.
And I would recommend that to anybody.
(11:20):
Nobody has all the answers. Nomatter how much experience you have,
no matter how thoughtfulyou are about things,
no matter how good your instincts are,
there's still things thatare going to stump you.
And those really good executivecoaches, you walk away from a session,
as I did with mine,
feeling more confident and just bouncing
(11:41):
ideas, role playing, saying, 'Okay,
let's put ourselves in this person's shoesthat you now need to have this really
difficult conversation with. How can wedo it with sensitivity, with empathy,
but also being really honestand direct?' So that has been a
huge, huge help for both Wendy and I.
Yes, a hundred percent. We havea culture of doing that as well.
(12:01):
And another thing that coaches dofor us is really help us see blind
spots. They are able to say things to usthat we are not bringing to the table,
but things they can very much see inus that help us just be better leaders,
especially in today's world.So that's fascinating to hear.
It would be interesting, I think,
for people who maybe are not soentrenched in ballet to understand:
(12:24):
what does it mean to followsomebody like Balanchine
who held this role-first ofall, who founded the company,
and who held this role for so longand has such an incredible global
reputation? Does it feelhaunted in that office?
Early on it was a bit terrifying because
(12:45):
there's not a lot of room for mistakes.Not only is it really well respected,
but our patrons who've been comingto the ballet for many years expect a
certain level of quality,
expect the Balanchine ballets tolook their best at New York City
Ballet because if they don't looktheir best here, what are we doing?
That's our history. That's whatwe're supposed to be the best at.
(13:09):
But it's also invigorating.
I find that I come in to workand I haven't had a single day
in six plus years where I've walked inthe door and been filled with dread,
or thought, 'I really would ratherbe somewhere else right now.'.
What a gift.
And I've always been proudto know that I've never felt,
(13:33):
no matter how hard of a day I have,
or sometimes at the end of theday where you just feel like, wow,
I've got some stuff wrong today. But I'vegotten used to that more. Like, okay,
that didn't go as well as I would'vehoped. Here's how I do it better,
as opposed to just wallowing inthe frustration of something.
And it is a pressure and a responsibilitythat feels pretty huge most of the
(13:57):
time. But it's also excitingand invigorating and I mean,
it's the dream job. I've gottensort of past the moment of like,
is this really happening?
That happened a bit inthe first couple of years.
'I can't believe Iactually achieved this.'
But now it's more, I'm justsuper focused on the work,
(14:17):
focused on being better each day,
helping those around me be ableto be at their best each day and
try to use those teachable moments tohelp somebody feel even more confident in
their work going forward.
Yeah. When you were a youngerdancer, what were you thinking, like,
'If I ever had this job,what would I change?
(14:39):
How could I make this better?'Because you can do that now.
Yeah. And fortunately, I wassort of thinking that way,
mostly because I was going toFordham to get my college degree
while I was dancing.
And I majored in organizationalleadership and I was so just
fascinated by that,
(14:59):
shifting my brain from being adancer and following the rules and
just really trying to do what you're toldto do and being at your best that way,
to thinking much more broadly outside ofmyself and what this organization means
to each person and howit's managed, how it's run,
what works really welland what maybe doesn't.
(15:22):
And in the course of pursuing thatdegree, I really thought of, okay,
if I ever have some responsibility,
here's something I would like to change.
And I started doing some of thateven before I was in this role,
where we started an apprenticementorship program, for example.
You have so much support as a young personall the way up through 'til when you
(15:42):
leave the school,
and then you get in the company andit was a little bit of sink or swim.
So it's like,
how can we put the dancers ona better path to be successful?
That was one of the things I was reallyproud of before I was even in this role,
was creating and leading this program.
And more communication with thedancers. We never had evaluations.
(16:04):
We were not given regularfeedback about how to
improve. So it was hard to know whereyou stood or what you needed to work on.
So right away as interim, it wasone of the first things I did,
was establish dancer evaluations andstart talking to the dancers about what
we're seeing and allow them totalk about what they're working on,
and be fully invested ineach of their success,
(16:26):
their development,
and how we help give them the buildingblocks to get to where they want to get
to.
When you think about how youwant dancers to feel about
the culture that you andWendy are cultivating,
what do you want that to feel like?
I want them to feelsupported, uplifted, seen,
(16:47):
and heard.
And I want them to feel like they can bethemselves and not try to fit into some
other ideal of what either they think wewant or they think they're supposed to
be. The dancers are at their best onstage when they can be vulnerable.
You have to be vulnerable as an artist.You have to be willing to take risks.
(17:08):
You have to be willing to fail.
So providing a space wherethey feel safe to fail,
they feel safe to take chances. Wewant to see people on the stage.
We don't want to see robots orcogs in a machine where every
last finger is in the exact sameplace as the person next to them.
We want to see some freedom, wewant to see some individuality.
(17:33):
I kind of want to ask you alittle bit about programming.
Every time I get a City Ballet brochure,
it literally always sits right hereon my desk until that season is over.
And I always wonder, howdoes this all come together?
Every single mixed rep program, how doyou all approach this? What goes into it?
(17:55):
Well, thankfully that's Wendy's...one of her real areas of expertise.
So she takes a lead on programming,
and what Wendy reallylooks at is connections.
What connects those three or fourballets, those mixed rep programs,
which we mostly do. We do a fewfull lengths a year, but that's it.
So much of our daily lives is thesemixed rep programs that need to
(18:18):
work with the production demands,
need to work with the orchestraldemands. When I started programming,
I was like, oh my gosh, we haveall these ballets to pick from,
this is just going to befun. It's not fun. I mean,
I think there's some enjoymentin putting programs together,
but it's so tedious. It'sa months-long process.
It has to go through multiple departments,
(18:38):
multiple layers of edits and adjustments,
because the other thingis we have subscribers.
We have these great fans. We can't juststart repeating the same works on their
subscription night, so that's complicated.
Like this is the programwe really want to do,
but that one ballet hits thissubscription from one season to the next,
(18:59):
so we can't do it. We have tofigure out a different way.
We think about the dancerswe have, we think about,
there are some ballets in the rep thatreally feature roles that are best
performed by a shorterdancer, for example,
or best performed by a taller dancer.
So we can't have a season with justrep for only the tall dancers.,
(19:20):
and then the dancers who typicallywould do this other rep are just left on
the sidelines the whole season.So we have to look at that.
And then Wendy and I love this becausemusic has always been a leading
focus for the company,and with Balanchine,
the most important thingwas the music matters first,
then the steps come. So she reallylooks at how the music on a program
(19:43):
fits together so that there'shopefully a flow through the
program,
that the one pieceaccentuates the other piece,
or that there's something interestingabout how they're paired together,
both the dancing and the music,
and that there's nothing that feels justjarring or out of place on a program.
(20:05):
Like 'Why did that end up there?
That doesn't fit with everythingelse.' We also think about,
as we're programming, what is agateway performance, a gateway ballet?
What is something that could get a newaudience in here that's never been in
here before? Because we havethis great base of people,
but we have to always be cultivatingand building, as you know.
We recently did a collaborationwith Solange, Beyonce's sister,
(20:29):
who created the music for a piece,
but it was very successful inthat throughout that first run,
70% of single ticket buyerswere new to file. Which is
huge for us. But we programmedit-hoping that that would
happen-strategically withone of our tried and true,
most iconic classic Balanchineworks, Symphony in C.
(20:51):
Complete polar opposite towhat people were coming to see,
but also showed the companyoff utilizing our strengths.
And people were saying, "Oh mygosh, I came to see Solange,
but I was blown away by Symphony inC." So trying to show an audience
not only something new,
an exciting collaboration thatgets them into the theater,
(21:13):
but give them a little taste of what wedo throughout the rest of the year and
what we're really good at.
And that kind of approachis also really important.
Is it hard for you because you are,I mean, you're the ultimate insider.
Is it hard for you to understandwhat might appeal to someone who's a
hundred percent new to ballet?
(21:36):
It is.
I love coming into my seat-I sit in theback of the first ring at every show-and
I love coming into myseat, and I just sit there.
I don't go on my phone five, 10minutes before the show starts.
And I just look around. I lovejust looking around the theater,
looking around the first ring,looking to see who's there,
what they're talking aboutbefore the show starts,
(21:57):
just getting an idea of who they are andtrying to figure out why they're here,
what made them come in.Because it is really hard.
I have those things that I love thatI feel like make a great impact,
and I love being sort of ananonymous fly on the wall.
I love sometimes when I leave the theaterand people don't know who I am and I
hear what they're sayingabout what they saw,
(22:18):
and it is really largely mostly positive.
And hearing what on that program they'retalking about when they walk out the
door. I try to use that as agauge. But yeah, it's hard.
It is hard to put myself in the shoesof someone who's never seen the company
before and how they might receivewhat we put on that night.
One of the things I'd love to ask you is,
if you find yourself with a stranger toballet that says one of those classic
(22:43):
questions like what does this dance mean?
Something that's just a contemporarypiece or a neoclassical piece that doesn't
necessarily have a narrative.How do you answer that question?
I say to them...
and sometimes I have to preview a programthat's all abstract works for a group
of donors or one of our corporatesponsors, anything like that. And I say,
(23:04):
the beauty of this work is it allowseach audience member to feel the way
they want to feel about it,
to create a narrative if theyfeel that there is one there,
instead of just being told a very genericstory that you're supposed to follow
along with. Those ballets,
obviously The Nutcracker is incrediblyimportant for us, Swan Lake,
something like that where thereis a story that's easy to follow.
(23:27):
But so many people I talk to,
what they really fall in love withis our abstract work because you can
feel something different every timeyou watch it based on who's dancing it.
And if you want to justbe transported away,
even the abstract works can dothat because of the beauty of the
music, the beauty of thechoreography and the dancing,
(23:49):
and the individuality thatI talked about before.
And I love hearing that fromaudience members who say,
"I can't wait to see thisdancer in this ballet.
I've always wanted to see them in thatballet." And I love that they're that in
tune with each of our dancers,
and they're excited about how thatdancer is going to dance that ballet.
Your career at City Ballet certainly
(24:13):
predated digital transformation.
You and Wendy certainlyhave experienced what it's
like to sell ballet to the public
both in a traditional analog approach and
certainly how dramatically that haschanged on the other side of digital
(24:34):
transformation today.
But I'm just curious to hearwhat the process of digital
transformation felt like to youover the course of your career.
It was hard. It was hard to know
how people were going to consumeand what would attract them to
us, because things change sofast, as you know. And we just...
(24:58):
seeing that with our dancers,how can we harness that?
Because they have so manyfollowers, some of them.
How can they harness being a dancerat New York City Ballet for their own
feeds and their own brand developmentstuff? How can we work together?
How do we reach more eyeballs? Howdo we get more people interested?
(25:19):
How well are our feeds being curated?
And then when we put ourmarketing efforts out there,
it's got to look likeNew York City Ballet.
So when someone looks at it right away,they know what they're looking at.
But it still has to be innovative. I mean,
people are not okay withyou doing the same thing.
We just have to shout out Karen Girty,our senior director of marketing,
because she's just as good as it gets.
(25:39):
Yes. Super fan!
And she's built a great team aroundher. The artists we collaborate with,
the directors we collaboratewith, the short films we do...
It's just really top notch,
and we're really lucky to have such agood team here and be able to just keep up
with the ever, everevolving trends out there.
(26:01):
It's a lot.
What goes into managing just the
power of social amplificationthat dancers have in
their own hands? And as you say,
so many of the dancershave massive followings.
What is the push pull in thatfor you all as a company?
(26:24):
What has the friction been? Whatmust be the power of some of that?
It is tricky because they are themselves.
They curate their feed as ifthey're in a way an independent
operator, an independent employee,
but every single one of themrepresents New York City Ballet,
has New York City Ballet on their name,
(26:46):
talks all about their performancesat New York City Ballet and stuff.
So how does that relationship betweenthe organization and the employee work
when they are public figures?So where are the boundaries?
What can you say? Whatshould you shy away from?
How do you all navigate that?Do you have systems in place?
I can imagine there are peoplelistening, being like, how do you do it?
(27:09):
How do you navigate that? Becauseyou are particularly public.
There's such a brightlight on the company.
We don't have enough systems in place,but it's something we're working on.
I mean, we're doing strategic planningaround digital strategy as we speak,
and really
(27:30):
our dancers are unionized. So there'sa collective bargaining agreement.
So something we didn't have before,
we now have a code ofconduct as part of that.
And what's laid out there is how thedancers are representatives of the
company in their public lives andprivate lives to a certain extent.
And there's a social media policy inthere, what's allowed to be filmed,
(27:51):
what's not allowed to be filmed,what's allowed to be posted,
what's not allowed to be posted becauseof permissions, because of copyright,
because of respecting yourcolleagues' privacy. I mean,
our dancers are really thoughtful forthe most part, and are really good,
and do want to amplify the companyin the best light possible,
not just amplify themselves. Theyunderstand their role in that place.
(28:14):
And then when somethinghappens that's a little bumpy,
we try to learn from it and we try touse it as a moment where everybody can
learn from it about maybesomething to avoid in the future.
But walking that line isreally complicated. So I mean,
having a union workforce helps becausethere are policies and protocols in
place just because of thecollective bargaining agreement.
(28:38):
So there is an understanding of what'snot only allowed, but what's possible.
And we just keep experimenting.
In sports,
they talk about something called theStar System where you really rely
on some of the marquee value ofcertain players. And I always wonder,
how are you thinkingabout that internally?
(28:59):
What's the friction for actually takingadvantage of some of that so that you
don't sort of 'other' any of the dancers?
Is this something that youguys think about or talk about?
We do, more so now thanI think before. So yes,
we need to try to highlightthose beautiful artistic collaborations that happen
(29:20):
and those dancers that comeup, rise through the ranks,
come up out of the corps,
and are the ones that are goingto take this company forward.
But we can't forget aboutthe corpse de ballet.
We can't forget about what we docall the backbone of the company,
that holds the group collectivelyat a really high level.
And so we do really try to focus on
(29:43):
everybody in our marketing efforts.We try to focus on everybody,
and we're much more based aroundthe importance of the ballet and the
success of the ballet thanthe importance of one dancer.
And it doesn't matter what they dance,they're always going to be great.
It's like we just want the caliber ofour ballets to be as high as the caliber
of our dancers.Maybe in some other companies,
(30:05):
there's that lead dancer that dances thosefew full lengths a year or something.
That's what someone goes to see. Theygo see the dancer, not the ballet.
In most cases, we have people, yes,they come to see certain dancers,
but they come to see the ballets overand over again, which is really great.
But it is tricky,
and in this age of visibilityacross everyone in the company,
(30:26):
managing and harnessing a stardancer who has a big following,
who people do come to see,
while also not ignoring or ostracizingthe other dancers in the company who are
working just as hard and who arejust as excellent in their work.
I want to talk aboutyour brand really quick.
I remember the moment in time, Ican't remember how many years ago,
(30:47):
when the brand of New YorkCity Ballet was reimagined,
and I just love it. It'sone of my favorites.
I think it might be one of the best visualidentities of any arts organization.
Tell me what you strivefor consumers to take away
from the identity you all have cultivated.
Well, we have to walk that line betweengiving them something fresh, innovative,
(31:12):
exciting, while also making surethey know it's New York City Ballet,
but it has to be dynamic.
We can't come up withsomething that feels stayed.
You have to feel the energy of NewYork City Ballet come through the page.
You have to feel that the dancersare able to present that...
kind of what's asked of them, and whythey are at the top of their game,
(31:34):
which is that really clear,dynamic movement quality.
And it's hard to do.
It's hard to do in a picture or hard todo in something that is a still shot.
There's even, with our 75th anniversary,
that lineup of dancers that's on thefront of our theater and on the brochures
and stuff. It is themjust standing in place.
(31:54):
But there's still something about it.
There's like an attitude that'svery clearly New York City Ballet.
There's a freshness as you lookacross the lineup of dancers,
and it feels very current.
How do you specificallywork across marketing?
As a marketing person myself,
what does it mean to you to work acrossthat department given what they need to
(32:17):
do for everyone?
We're just really honest with eachother, honest about what we need to see.
I try to trust my instinct of what hitsme when I look at an image or I look at
a video treatment or something like that,
trying to step out of my artisticdirectorship role and just be a consumer.
(32:37):
But just trying to look atit as objectively as possible because we're trying to
reach the broadest group as possible.
And while we do do verytargeted marketing, of course,
to specific groups of our audience,the overall brand identity, all that,
stays very consistent.
(32:57):
It's a busy time for you all.
It is New York CityBallet's 75th anniversary.
It's the School of AmericanBallet's 90th anniversary.
You had a big eventthis week, did you not?
We did. Still recovering from it.
On Monday we did a stage productionunlike anything we've done at the school
(33:18):
before.
And it was the ball that you guyshave every year for the school, yes?
Yeah, but an upgraded versionfor the 90th anniversary.
Amazing. Amazing. It's so incrediblethat it has been around for that long.
I think for a lot of people,
they may be surprised to know how muchlonger than the actual company it has
been around.
(33:38):
Yeah, it was really important toGeorge Balanchine and Lincoln Kirstein.
They were very thoughtful in how theywanted to establish a performance company,
but very thoughtful abouttheir idea of creating an
identity for that company. Andthat comes with the dancers,
and the dancers have tobe trained a certain way,
and so they started building areal pipeline of dancers that
(34:00):
then were able to eventuallypopulate the company.
And that's what we still do today.
We hire really exclusively from theSchool of American Ballet into the
company because they're trained ina way that they can be successful.
What do you think is going to behappening at City Ballet in the next
five years?
What can we expect that may notbe on anyone's radar and might
(34:24):
change the paradigm?
Well, we have two of the most importantcreative voices in classical ballet with
Justin Peck and Alexei Ratmansky herein-house now, which is huge for us.
I mean, that's a game changerfor us to have those two icons,
leading voices who are going to experimentand do all kinds of fun things here
(34:45):
in the company and push each otherand push the dancers and push us as an
institution forward.
I think one thing that we're tryingreally hard to do is be a bit more
curatorial with our new works and bereally strategic in how they roll out so
that they have a better chanceof success. And not just...
Sometimes City Ballet throws newworks out at such a high rate,
(35:10):
maybe they didn't have the time theyneeded to really be as good as they could
have been if they'd gotten abit more time, a bit more care,
a bit more focus of how they get fromcreation to the stage. So that's a bit of
a shift for us where we're actuallydoing slightly fewer new works going
forward,
but really focusing our time andresources on each one so that each one
(35:32):
can be as successful as possible.
But what I'm really excited aboutis how we stay fresh and edgy
and at the cutting edge ofthe classical ballet world.
And I think we have a greatsense of momentum here.
I think we need to have another...
we want to have anotherhigh profile collaboration
(35:53):
down the road.
It takes sometimes years of planningto get something like that to come
together, but we'rereally focused on that.
We've made great stridesin building our audience,
like audience development.
Our audience is younger thanit's ever been on record,
and it's the youngest oncampus at Lincoln Center,
(36:14):
in terms of our demographics.
And so what do we do with that now?So we've got the people in the building,
how do we keep them? Howdo we cultivate them?
What kind of partnerships withother brands, corporations,
things that are really importantto us? Those are down the road.
We've got some reallygreat ones in the works,
(36:34):
some ideas that we're just starting toflesh out that could be game changing for
our brand,
and then what's the next generationof dancers going to look like?
And we've got so much talentin the corpse de ballet.
I've never seen the corpse this talented,
but also this unique andindividual and strong,
(36:54):
but they also work really welltogether. So there's that individuality.
But they work really well as a group.
And we've done some ballets thisseason where I'm just like, wow,
the future looks really bright.We're never going to rest.
We're never going to sit backand say, okay, we've done it,
now we can just ride it out. And Ilove that about this organization.
We're always like, okay,so that went really well,
(37:16):
but how are we going todo it better next year?
Or how are we going todo it better next time?
Or what more can we add towhat we're doing well already?
Not only maintaining alevel of excellence, but striving for more. And again,
it's what makes me excited towalk into the theater every day,
even though I know it's likeI have 13 meetings today.
It's going to be a long day,
but I'm still really excitedto come in every day to work.
(37:40):
That's wonderful. We have run out of time,
so we have reached what we call yourCI to Eye moment. So the question is,
if you could broadcast one message tothe artistic and executive directors,
leadership teams, staff,
and boards of a thousand artsorganizations, what would it be?
(38:01):
Be courageous.
I think it's so nervy to sit in this chair
sometimes, knowing that peopleare not going to like what you do,
knowing that dancers are goingto be unhappy with casting,
knowing that there could be boardmembers who don't like the most recent
commission you did, knowing thatyou can't keep everybody happy,
(38:21):
but you have to have thecourage to go for it,
especially in the arts and with what'sgoing on in our world right now.
We have to put what we believeis beautiful out there.
We have to put what we believe isinteresting, what sends a message,
what tells a story, whatuplifts something or somebody...
we have to put it out there.We cannot play it safe.
(38:43):
Performing arts organizations,the minute you become too safe,
you become irrelevant andyou fade away. Prudency,
thoughtfulness, not beingimpulsive, of course. As a leader,
you have to be reallycareful with certain things,
but you can't just play it safewith every decision you make.
That's very inspiring. Beautiful,and well said. Jonathan Stafford,
(39:07):
artistic director at New York City Ballet,
thank you so much for spendingtime with us today. Thank you.
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
It's great to talk about the company andto talk to someone who's such a fan and
believes in what we do. I don'tever take that for granted,
that there's so many of youwho find joy in what we do,
and it makes me continueto stay focused and
(39:30):
enthused for what we'redoing. So thank you.
Absolutely. A pleasure. Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
(39:53):
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
(40:14):
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, andYouTube for regular content to help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacity interactive dot com so you
never miss an update. Andif you haven't already,
(40:34):
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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