May 14, 2024 • 36 mins
Audience engagement is critical for attracting and retaining new attendees. But what exactly does it look like in practice?
For Holly Mulcahy, “audience engagement” isn’t just a marketing platitude—it’s a promise. In this episode, the Wichita Symphony Orchestra’s Concertmaster and Partner for Audience Engagement shares what wine-tasting and birdwatching have to do with orchestral music, and why deepening audience relationships now will pay dividends for our organizations in the long run.
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Hello everyone, Dan here.
So we all know that audience engagementis critical for attracting and retaining
(01:14):
new attendees, but how exactlydo we do that in practice?
And what kinds of pre- and post-showactivities work best to break down
barriers for newcomers?To answer these questions,
I caught up with Holly Mulcahy,
Wichita Symphony Orchestra's concertmasterand Partner for Audience Engagement.
For Holly,
"audience engagement" isn't just amarketing platitude-it's a promise.
(01:37):
She talks about craftingmusic-inspired cocktails,
leading audiencesthrough a bird sanctuary,
and perfecting the "post-show hang."She also explains exactly why deepening
audience relationships nowwill pay dividends for our organizations in the long
run.
This episode is full of inspiration thatwill transform your on-site engagement
strategy. I can't wait to share itwith you. So let's dive in, shall we?
(02:09):
I'm here with Holly Mulcahy,
concertmaster and Partner for AudienceEngagement at the Wichita Symphony
Orchestra, and we're thrilled tohave her here on the pod. Holly,
welcome to CI to Eye!
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
I'm so excited for this conversation.
For our listeners who aremeeting you for the first time,
quickly walk us through your journey asa violinist and how you got to where you
(02:30):
are today.
Yeah, I started violin... I gotinterested in the storytelling of violin.
Specifically, Scheherazade was thepiece that drew me in because as a
child you had the choices of aDisney princess or this Scheherazade
who told very powerful storiesand used the violin as her voice.
(02:53):
I thought,
"This is magical." And so I checkedout the violin and along the
journey, enjoyed varioussteps: youth orchestras,
my first professional orchestras...
Then something just kind of switchedin me where it wasn't about my
enjoyment so much that was the importance.
It was about the audience's enjoymentand having that mirrored back to me,
(03:17):
reflecting what their experience was.
So the violin has taken just aroundabout course of how I got
involved to now the importanceof how other people are involved.
Yeah, you kind of allude to the many,
many different roles you've had and manydifferent projects you've had over the
years. What's been some of your favoriteprofessional roles and projects?
(03:37):
Yeah, absolutely. I live mylife in thirds. Concertmaster,
executive director of a nonprofit,and I also have a solo career.
The concertmaster has beenvery fun for me for a number of
reasons, and that's justconnecting with the audience,
being engaged with themusicians, to the music director,
(03:57):
to the audience, and reverse.
And I started a nonprofitcalled Arts Capacity,
which takes music into the prisons,
and I've learned a lot about humannature and finding a pathway through
music to really connect and communicate.And the other third of my life,
this kind came about ofwanting to suss out a
(04:20):
passion that I have. I love moviemusic and especially Westerns,
the film soundtracks from Westerns.
Iconic.
Yeah. So I asked a Hollywood filmcomposer just kind of on a whim,
would you be willing to writea soundtrack-style violin concerto in the style of
an epic Western? And he said yes.
And it's been a really fun audienceengaging kind of piece because it allows
(04:43):
space for audience to find their ownexperiences and imagine their own mental
movie. So that's been the path.
And what brought you to theWichita Symphony Orchestra?
It was just an opportunity.
I was invited to guest concertmaster fora number of concerts and the chemistry
between the board, themusicians, the staff,
(05:05):
the audience just really felt organicand it felt like a place that I could be
my best and bring in my best qualities,
which is inclusion of new audiencemembers and finding joy in that.
Yeah,
it's unusual for a concertmaster to beso involved in audience development and
engagement.
Did the symphony dream up this rolefor you or was it something you felt
(05:27):
passionate about and then wanted to bringin? How did that relationship begin?
My previous symphony,the Chattanooga Symphony,
I had the same position of concertmaster,
but I was doing this anyway and hadtried a number of different projects.
And so that was appealing to the WichitaSymphony and their executive director
talked and we came up with creatingan actual position for this.
(05:50):
And we've really expanded theopportunities and really put a focus
on why this is important andbeing able to capture the data of
how many new people are coming, whatkind of experience are they having...
So just breaking down thebarriers, building the bridges,
and making everybody feelcomfortable, feeling welcome,
(06:11):
feeling like they belong, notjust like they're fitting in,
but they actually feel like they belongin the arts and that their opinions
matter. And that kind of empathy,
just engaging on that kind oflevel, just empowers the audience.
And they know whenthey're being listened to,
they know when they're being included.
(06:34):
And I think we've got a really goodsystem going at the Wichita Symphony for
building with sincerity.
Yeah,
it feels like there's a lot of activelistening and hospitality towards guests
that you're bringing in,actually listening and hearing what they have to say.
Exactly.
I think that takes a whole team aswell. I think many arts organizations,
(06:56):
the onsite engagement landssquarely on the marketing team.
What are some of the benefitsof involving more voices,
specifically artistic voices?
Right. You're right.
The artistic voices have theexperience on the art side.
We are the ones that have the passion.
We've spent years learning the symphonies,
(07:17):
learning the concert repertoire.We are very familiar.
I think involving artists with theparticipation of audience and getting
conversations going helps create alandscape that is kind of a shared
experience where it's just not one sided,
but also informing the musicians,the artists, to listen too.
(07:37):
Because we're asking themto listen to our music,
but we need to listen to their responseto our music. It's a conversation.
And then adding marketing into thatabsolutely helps craft a brand,
helps craft a succinct message and keepseverybody kind of going in the same
direction.
So as concertmaster,
do you feel better positioned in someways to guide newcomers through the art?
(08:01):
I do. I think it's because it,it's a platform kind of seat.
It's a leadership.
I'm second face of the orchestraright after the music director,
and I'm not just putting in bowings,
the bow direction up or down for thesection, which is a choreography,
if you will, for the orchestra.I'm not just telling my section,
(08:22):
you're too loud, you're tooquiet. We can play this this way.
I'm looking at the audience,I'm looking within the audience.
I'm inviting them into our world.
And so being a liaisonactively helps me do
the concert master job as wellas the audience engagement job.
And that is by choice. Noteverybody's comfortable with that.
(08:43):
And you've helped implementseveral on-site engagement tactics.
Can you walk us throughsome of your favorites?
Yes, there have been many.
I first started doing foodmetaphors, food and drink metaphors.
We would have a winetasting at one function,
I think this was before I came toWichita, where we were coming up with
(09:07):
what does this wine taste likeand what music pairs well with it?
And using terminology that fits boththe wine world and the music world.
You want it to be smoothand mellow or really crisp
and sparkling.
Those words work in the music worldjust as well as the wine world.
And to pair these with wines and havingthe wines being tasted while the music
(09:30):
was being played helps people findtheir own language of enjoyment,
their own way of discovering,
allowing their curiosity to manifest alittle bit more naturally than "Here is
how to enjoy a piece of music.
And this is what you need to know."I think getting to food and the wine and
even coffee metaphors helps expand. Sothat's something we've started doing.
(09:56):
We've created cocktailsto go with certain themes,
and it doesn't alwayshave to be theme-based,
but it just could be one ideathat can spark. For instance,
I'll tell you what I've got coming up.
We're going to be performingthe Mahler Symphony Number One.
Within that, Mahler quotessome cuckoos, some birds,
(10:16):
and he references a field,a meadow of birds singing.
And that's cool. But I thought,
wouldn't it be fun to gather a bunch ofpeople and have a bird expert walk us
through a nature preserveand look at birds.
We don't have to necessarily talk aboutMahler's piece from top to bottom and
(10:37):
the significance of the firstand the second movement,
and let's put ourselves in Mahler's shoesand walk through that meadow and feel
and hear the birds and just have alittle bit of friendship built in.
And then say, by the way, we're goingto be playing something similar to this.
Mahler was inspired by what you justheard basically. So those kinds of things.
(10:58):
Awesome.
And what sort of feedback did you receivefrom audiences about these engagement
initiatives?
They loved it because it'sopen to our musicians,
our audience, our staff, our board.
And I think having all of thosestakeholders have a beer, have a wine,
share over a burger...
(11:18):
It's important to experience the concertagain through other people's eyes,
but just getting to share the storiesand the perspectives gives a 360 degree
view of that one concert.
And I think that when you don'thave that communication afterwards,
you're missing a huge opportunity.
I've definitely changedhow I view films. Like,
my wife and I used to-in New York,we used to walk to the cinema,
(11:42):
watch something and then walk backand it was a half hour walk each way.
And every so often we'dstop for a drink somewhere.
And I remember there wasone film, the Green Knight,
where I saw it and I didn't think thatmuch of it. And then on the walk home,
by the time I'd walked home,
I completely changed how I viewedit because we've discussed it.
You are sort of re-experiencing itwith other people after you sort of
(12:04):
tear it apart and chat through it.
I think that's exactly it. And ifan orchestra has a second concert,
it gives a chance to say, hey,I want to hear this again.
And then you can have another ticket.
And funny story about that violinconcerto that I mentioned earlier:
the audience engagement from that
on the second day,
(12:25):
that sold more than the first day becausepeople wanted to see it and experience
it again because afterwards they alltalked with each other and said, oh,
I love this part. This reminded meof this and this sounded like that.
And it just kind of gives a chance toopen the door to experience a piece of art
again, but with a different perspective.
Do you have a sense of whetherthese efforts have grown the symphony's number of
(12:48):
new attendees? If so,
do they typically return for morethan one performance per season?
I don't have the hard data on that,
but my perception is I just look at thesocial networks of friends that I've
created and they're bringing their friendsin and they're being a mouthpiece and
saying, hey, we're going to the symphony.
So they create a social networkwhere they invite people and then it
(13:11):
expands after that. But I don't have,
"We've increased our tickets by 20%." ButI'm seeing the social networks expand.
That's what excites me.
Yeah, that sense of community remindsme... I do a lot of improv comedy,
as I've mentioned before on the podcast.
And the theaters that are alwaysmost successful have a bar
(13:32):
associated with them or an area wherepeople can hang out and chat after the
show. And as improvisers, we loveto tear apart our own performance,
as I'm sure classical music also hasas well, where you go deep into it,
but also you can chat with theaudience and bring people in.
Like an oyster knife almost.Just opening it up for people,
(13:52):
something that can seemquite dense and intimidating.
I think it is veryintimidating. And like you say,
just opening up just a crackand inviting people in on their
terms, not our terms.
But I think shoving all theinformation all at once at the
same time is exhausting.
(14:14):
And it's intimidating andnobody wants to feel stupid.
They don't want to feel dumb.
They don't want to feel like they'renot welcome because there are so many
avenues into enjoying the art.
And that's what I've kind ofcentered my whole life around.
(14:34):
Going back to the wine metaphor,
you've actually written aboutthe similarities between classical music and the
wine industry before.
What are some of the big lessons we canborrow from that industry for elevating
the audience's experienceof classical music?
Well, I think the book that I readthat inspired this was by Bianca
(14:54):
Bosker. The book is called Cork Dork,
and she's a journalist who takes,
she just drops everythingto become a wine expert,
to just take you through the wholejourney. And as I was reading this,
it's struck me what a metaphorour two industries are.
We're selling expensive luxury items,
(15:15):
and you don't need wine. Youdon't need to go to the orchestra.
I'm going to argue that you mightneed to later, but you don't need it.
There's a lot of snobbishand stereotypical
things associated with both the wineindustry and the orchestra industry.
A lot of jargon, wordsthat make it sound extra
(15:36):
snobby. Both disappearafter they've been enjoyed.
You sip the wine, it's gone. You go toa concert after it's done, it's gone.
Wow. I love that point. I'venever thought about that before,
how they're both ephemeral in nature.They disappear after you've enjoyed them.
That's such a great metaphor. I love that.
Yeah, exactly.
(15:57):
And both offer something that'senjoyable and can offer a way for people
to get together and have communityand have social networks through these
things.
But where the wine industry is differentfrom where the orchestra industry is
currently is, they'vedone more data research,
they've done more consumer testing,
(16:19):
and the blog that you're referencingwas called the Merlott Effect.
And I got a little bit of flack frompeople because I went through the Yellow
Tail Winery as an example ofhow they did some data testing
and consumer blind tastetesting. And people said, oh,
but that's not real wine. I'mlike, you're missing the point.
(16:40):
You're missing the point.
So they mix some certain grapes andit doesn't count as real wine in the
true wine enthusiast's mind,
but that's exactly the point that wehave to struggle with in the orchestra
world.And so both,
if you want to try to find-thisis a terrible metaphor,
but one could almost argue that thepops material for orchestras could
(17:03):
be considered the YellowTail of the wine industry.
But that's a gateway in, and allyou do is like what you just said,
you just get an opening.
There might be something on that popsprogram that makes somebody curious,
and if they feel curious enough andwelcome to fit in, to feel a belonging,
they're going to go check out the MahlerSymphony, the Hindemith Symphony. And
(17:26):
it's just finding that taste.
And let's talk about the importanceof closing the loop with audiences,
not just inviting them to see a show,
but creating that feedback loop thatreally involves them in the artistic
experience.
Yeah, I think typically we'vekind of come to this business,
the orchestra business,
as we're going to advertise and thenpresent the concert and then invite you to
(17:49):
the next one. And weseem so confident about
knowing that Beethoven willsell a house out. Really? How?
Maybe just from past ticket sales,
but are we missing somethingelse by not talking to somebody?
So right now, traditionally,
audiences aren't really invited to havea voice, but it's their experience.
(18:11):
And if you look at companies like Amazon,I mean, as soon as you buy something,
they're like, how'd you likethe thing you've just bought?
And then you're invited toleave five stars or a comment.
We don't really allow accessfor that in this industry,
and I think we're missinga great opportunity.
So post-concert talkbacksand after-concert hangs,
(18:33):
for those that want to stick around.Surveys are another
thing.
People can get bogged down with emailsurveys and they might not be fun,
but I played with one orchestraand they had in the front lobby,
it was super simple, justa big piece of sheet paper,
and it had the three pieces onthe program and the composers,
(18:57):
and all you had to do was pick yourtwo favorites just by putting an X.
It was very simple and kidswere invited to do that as well.
So you could just kind ofsee the favorite piece.
And I like that because that gives anaudience an immediate chance to say,
here's how I felt. Myopinion matters. I love that.
And how can closing the loop helpinform future marketing decisions and
(19:20):
programming choices?
I think that the biggest thing is theaudience knows they're being heard,
but when you share that because ofthe reaction we've gotten from the
audience, we're programminga Philip Glass Symphony,
that kind of gives a little bitof social proof that we didn't
choose this, but our audience did,
(19:40):
and we are happy to presentit for you and with you.
And closing that loop by allowingthem to share their opinions
helps them promote, ultimately,
because then the audience can say to theirneighbors or to the people in church,
"Hey, they're going to be doingthis Philip Glass Symphony,
something I'm familiar with."And to see that validates an
(20:04):
opinion.
And it gives stakes almost inthe future programming, right?
If you recommend something andthen the programming reflects that,
you kind of feel like,oh, I made that happen.
And audiences are different fromcity to city, state to state.
So what may work in one city willprobably not work in the other.
And that's where I also think thatthe industry can get a little flawed
(20:28):
is, oh, they sold outplaying a Mahler Nine,
we should do a Mahler Nine,assuming that it'll sell out.
And that doesn't really inform thatyou've been listening to your audience
because it could bethe Janáček Sinfonietta
that sells your house out becauseyou already have a relationship.
But it also helps reassuretrust with an audience.
(20:51):
And that's something that we really,really do in Wichita Symphony.
It's a partnership with our musicdirector, Daniel Hege, and myself,
is we listen to the audience,we program with them,
and then they feel they are heard.
And that trust is pretty automaticnow, so that when we put on something,
the audience knows it is withthem in mind. With and for them.
(21:22):
Arts organizations are still strugglingto recover from the financial effects of
the pandemic, which meansbudgets are especially tight.
How would you respond to department headsand executive directors who question
the ROI of on-site engagement?
It's really hard to get an ROI-return on
investment-on engagement,
(21:43):
like a post-concert hangor a special recital,
wine pairing kind of thing.
You can't really track that that winepairing recital is going to influence
directly the final concert of the season.
But what it does is it buildsrelationships long-term and builds trust
(22:04):
long-term. And I think that youstart to feel [that]. But it should,
audience engagement projectsshould never be, oh,
we are really comingup against hard times.
We need to do more audience engagementand expect it to turn around in two or
three months.
My nearly 10 years withChattanooga Symphony,
(22:25):
before I switched over to Wichita,
it took about six years toreally develop the relationships,
to really get to know the people andto make them feel welcome and hear what
they wanted, too.
Certain situations in that city wouldnot work in Wichita and vice versa.
And so finding that rhythm,
it's not an overnight thing and itwon't happen in a matter of months.
(22:47):
Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of,
we often think about returning to themission and not being completely focused
on ROI because they kind offeed into each other sometimes.
Yeah, they absolutely should. I thinkwhen you start to lose the mission,
when you start to panic about finances,
that's when you need to just step on thebrakes and go, why are we doing this?
(23:09):
Yes.
And if you are sincere with yourmission, sincere with your purpose of,
why are we doing this? Well, we'representing an art to an audience. Why?
Because they need it. Why?
Because maybe they need to escape theirlives for two hours or maybe they need
to be challenged. Why? The nextwhy is, are we listening to them?
(23:30):
To what they're not saying becausethey're not comfortable? They may say,
"Can you play Beethoven Five? I guaranteeyou're going to sell a house out.
My whole family will come because thatis what they know." But finding ways,
and this goes back to the wine tasting,
finding ways of sampling differentkinds of music and making people feel
intelligent about why they'relistening to this, why they like that,
(23:51):
and to let them come totheir own conclusions.
I think that different resultswould start to manifest.
Yeah,
that deeper listening remindsme of notes on writing.
There's a concept of what's the noteunderneath the note that you get?
Listen to the note they're sayingand take that first level of, yeah,
(24:11):
they didn't like this bit,
but what they're really tryingto say underneath the note.
And that deeper listening is just aboutengaging more with that audience and
understanding the audience even more.
Exactly. Exactly to the point.
And this is why I like the post-concerthangs so much to close the loop,
because very often we'll have anew piece of music on the front.
(24:33):
We just had a concert this past weekendin Wichita where we played a piece by
Nokuthula [Ngwenyama].Brand new piece, gorgeous.
And we played Hindemith Symphony,
and then we ended withRachmaninoff Piano Concerto.
The feedback from that concert-while theRachmaninoff piano concerto was like,
oh my goodness, thesoloist, she's amazing,
it's one of my favorite pieces-thefeedback about the first piece was
(24:57):
unbelievable. People wantedto hear that again and again.
They want to hear more fromNokuthula. And now knowing that,
that gives them a name that they canremember, a piece that they can remember,
something they're familiar with thatthey weren't necessarily familiar with
before. So hopefully orchestras will say,
this is the kind of music people want butthey can't articulate because they are
(25:18):
only familiar with the comfort levelof saying Beethoven and Mozart,
because that's what oursociety has pumped into them.
But finding what they're not saying,you find that out at the concert,
the post-concert hangs,
and then deeply listening to them changeshow you program and changes how you
involve your audiences.
(25:38):
Yes. Yeah. Let's talk aboutapplause in classical music,
you feel pretty passionately about theaudience shaming that can happen when
new attendees don't knowthe customs of performances,
like not clapping between movements.
This is something that I definitelyfeel. I think the first time,
one of the first bits of classicalmusic I ever saw, was Elgar.
(26:01):
And in between the movements,
I automatically went to clapbecause I'm primed to clap anyway.
I am the sort of weirdo who, I quite likeit when we clap when the plane lands.
It's my worst trait.
But why is this audience onaudience shaming so harmful?
(26:22):
Oh my gosh, this is the hill.... oneof the many hills I'll probably die on.
Audience on audience shaming.We, meaning the industry,
can make people feel ascomfortable as possible,
but it is the fellow audiencemembers who dictate the final...
whether they're comfortable or not.
And we currently are doingnothing to help that situation.
(26:45):
And by nothing,
I mean we don't really stand in front ofthe orchestra before a concert and say,
the next piece is four movements-orfour segments or four chapters or in
four parts,
because what is a movement?-and what we
would like... the intention with the X, Y,
Z symphony is to havea cohesive sound with
(27:10):
the tension of the silence.
Or have the person stand in front ofthe orchestra before the concert and
say, clap when you feel likeit, you have our permission,
our blessing.
If you feel the joy or you feel thatwe really rocked it out of the park,
we want you to express that.This is your experience.
(27:33):
That informs the regulars who arethe traditionalists that we are
seeing. There's going to be applause,or we're trying to make an agreement
that eliminates theshame and the feedback.
And the opposite point ofthat is people will say,
well, it's written in the program.
(27:54):
And usually in the program it's smalland it's kind of in the back when to
clap, what to wear, those kind ofthings. Nobody reads the program, nobody.
And if you're reading the program,you're not listening to the music.
And if you're reading the program andyou got there a half hour before the
concert,
then you're not having a good timeenjoying the lobby drinks and that kind of
thing.
(28:15):
And then if you want to also argue thetraditionalists that say no clapping
between movements, in Mozart's time,
they were clapping betweenmovements and within the movements.
He wrote his father and said, "Theyloved this violin passage so much,
they were clapping within the movement.".
As a performer,
do you find yourself gettingsurprised by people's reactions?
(28:37):
Or when people do clap, is that kind ofthrilling? Or how is that experience?
I'm surprised now when they don't clap.
It kind of is a little bit heartbreakingafter putting out this amazing sense
of energy after the firstsegment, movement, chapter,
whatever you want to call it. Andhaving that silence is just like,
"But we just did a great thing. Wejust performed this amazing thing.
(29:01):
And you're sitting there like,nothing?" It just feels so incongruent.
One of my favorite examples are likethe Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto or the
Piano Concerto, the first movement,
you want to just rocketout of your seat and go,
"Bravo!" because it ends on such a
thrilling note, thrilling dynamic.
(29:23):
And I think it's not normal just to
repress. You're paying to have a feeling.
And then when you're notinvited to express joy,
that's just weird. And thepolite applause in between...
Somebody might feel thatthey want to clap in between,
and then the shushing thathappens is embarrassing.
(29:44):
So I'm trying to prevent that.
This is something that I'm wanting toaddress so that we don't shame people
who are going to be future ticket buyers.
We want people to feelwelcome on their own terms.
And reiterate that there areno rules, just traditions.
There's nothing worsethan getting shushed.
It feels just like a mixtureof embarrassment and anger
(30:05):
and shame of being shushed.
It's totally shaming.
And why would you want to comeback to re-experience that feeling?
I wouldn't, nobody wants to feelthat. It's a horrible feeling.
Our listeners work across a widespectrum of artistic genres,
(30:27):
from classical music to contemporarytheaters to film houses,
and it seems like all ofthem are struggling to break down barriers for their
art forms so that more peoplecan enjoy what they do.
What's your advice forhow arts administrators in other genres can similarly
break down barriers for newaudiences to enjoy their art?
I think it is finding the similaritiesand then appreciating the differences.
(30:51):
And that goes on to just one-on-onebasis or just small groups
and hopefully let thattransfer out. For example,
I'm going to bring back thebirdwalk I've got planned.
You're building a language thatputs everybody on the same level,
and when you start to puteverybody on the same level,
then you can start tointroduce, by the way,
(31:13):
if you liked listening to that bird,you might listen to our Mahler Symphony.
Or if you liked tasting this wine,
you're really going to love thecomplex nature of this piece.
It eliminates your experiencelevel as knowing a Bach
piece or an experiencelevel here or there.
And I think finding that littlevulnerability together helps actually
(31:37):
build a path forward intothe art, into the genre.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
staff, and boards of a thousand artsorganizations, what would that be?
I think as arts administrators and asartists-and this goes for everybody on
the other side of thestage, not the audience,
(31:58):
but people who are very familiarwith our art-I think find the most
uncomfortable thing that you don'tknow anything about. And go to it.
And I'll give you an example.
When we first moved toChicago a number of years ago,
I'd never been to a hockey game, andI thought, this is uncomfortable.
I am a classical, classicallytrained musician. Tell you what,
(32:20):
if you stand up in a hockeygame while the puck is in play,
you'll get chastised. Ilearned that the hard way.
There are rules.
And I think feeling that opens yourmind and makes you look into your
own art and your ownexperience differently.
So I would encourage everybody to go tosomething that they are not comfortable
(32:42):
with, with open eyes and an openheart and feel that vulnerability,
feel the shame.
I'd also encourage everybody to gothrough their own ticket buying process.
Know what it's like to buy a ticket,
know what it's like to park in thepaid parking, not the employee parking,
but the paid parking.
Know what it's like to not understandwhere you're going to sit and just
(33:04):
feel it in the most vulnerable way.
And the best way to feel vulnerableis to find something that you're not
interested in and do it becauseit really opens your mind very
fast.
I love that answer. It reminds me of,
I was just getting into Americanfootball and my wife and I,
we went to an Eagles game becauseher family's from Philadelphia,
(33:26):
and it was the Eagles versus the Jets.
We were there a little lateand we saw them kick off,
and they did really well in returningit. We were cheering, we were cheering...
We were cheering for the wrong team.
And we were surrounded by Eagles fanswho were looking at us in our brand new
Eagles hoodies thinking, what theheck are you cheering about like that?
(33:46):
It was the most embarrassing momentI've ever felt as an audience
member.
I think that's a reallyvaluable tool to have though,
because you can flip that easily intosomebody who just clapped in the wrong
place, and you can flip that intosomebody who maybe came in jeans
that have holes in them.
But I think it really opens up yourmind to the possibilities of feeling
(34:11):
that I'm out of place. I don't fit,
and I am not belonging at all. So yeah,
you are not selling tickets to yourself.You're not marketing to yourself.
I keep seeing orchestras thatseem to be focusing on the
orchestra, focusing on the maestro,
focusing on the guest artist inthe print copy, in the video copy,
(34:33):
but you never see theaudience enjoying the thing.
I think that's the biggest reminderthat we have to have is there are people
that are different than us thatwill still enjoy the art we present.
So we need to not look at,how would I buy a ticket? But,
how are 50 other very different peoplewho might be hockey fans or football fans
or Led Zeppelin fans, how arethey going to be marketed to?
(34:58):
How are they going to be buying a ticket?
That's marvelous. I love that.That's such a great message.
Thank you so much for joining us, Holly.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
(35:19):
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
(35:40):
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
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pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
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You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacity interactive dot com so you
(36:01):
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please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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Hello everyone, Dan here.
So we all know that audience engagementis critical for attracting and retaining
(01:14):
new attendees, but how exactlydo we do that in practice?
And what kinds of pre- and post-showactivities work best to break down
barriers for newcomers?To answer these questions,
I caught up with Holly Mulcahy,
Wichita Symphony Orchestra's concertmasterand Partner for Audience Engagement.
For Holly,
"audience engagement" isn't just amarketing platitude-it's a promise.
(01:37):
She talks about craftingmusic-inspired cocktails,
leading audiencesthrough a bird sanctuary,
and perfecting the "post-show hang."She also explains exactly why deepening
audience relationships nowwill pay dividends for our organizations in the long
run.
This episode is full of inspiration thatwill transform your on-site engagement
strategy. I can't wait to share itwith you. So let's dive in, shall we?
(02:09):
I'm here with Holly Mulcahy,
concertmaster and Partner for AudienceEngagement at the Wichita Symphony
Orchestra, and we're thrilled tohave her here on the pod. Holly,
welcome to CI to Eye!
Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
I'm so excited for this conversation.
For our listeners who aremeeting you for the first time,
quickly walk us through your journey asa violinist and how you got to where you
(02:30):
are today.
Yeah, I started violin... I gotinterested in the storytelling of violin.
Specifically, Scheherazade was thepiece that drew me in because as a
child you had the choices of aDisney princess or this Scheherazade
who told very powerful storiesand used the violin as her voice.
(02:53):
I thought,
"This is magical." And so I checkedout the violin and along the
journey, enjoyed varioussteps: youth orchestras,
my first professional orchestras...
Then something just kind of switchedin me where it wasn't about my
enjoyment so much that was the importance.
It was about the audience's enjoymentand having that mirrored back to me,
(03:17):
reflecting what their experience was.
So the violin has taken just aroundabout course of how I got
involved to now the importanceof how other people are involved.
Yeah, you kind of allude to the many,
many different roles you've had and manydifferent projects you've had over the
years. What's been some of your favoriteprofessional roles and projects?
(03:37):
Yeah, absolutely. I live mylife in thirds. Concertmaster,
executive director of a nonprofit,and I also have a solo career.
The concertmaster has beenvery fun for me for a number of
reasons, and that's justconnecting with the audience,
being engaged with themusicians, to the music director,
(03:57):
to the audience, and reverse.
And I started a nonprofitcalled Arts Capacity,
which takes music into the prisons,
and I've learned a lot about humannature and finding a pathway through
music to really connect and communicate.And the other third of my life,
this kind came about ofwanting to suss out a
(04:20):
passion that I have. I love moviemusic and especially Westerns,
the film soundtracks from Westerns.
Iconic.
Yeah. So I asked a Hollywood filmcomposer just kind of on a whim,
would you be willing to writea soundtrack-style violin concerto in the style of
an epic Western? And he said yes.
And it's been a really fun audienceengaging kind of piece because it allows
(04:43):
space for audience to find their ownexperiences and imagine their own mental
movie. So that's been the path.
And what brought you to theWichita Symphony Orchestra?
It was just an opportunity.
I was invited to guest concertmaster fora number of concerts and the chemistry
between the board, themusicians, the staff,
(05:05):
the audience just really felt organicand it felt like a place that I could be
my best and bring in my best qualities,
which is inclusion of new audiencemembers and finding joy in that.
Yeah,
it's unusual for a concertmaster to beso involved in audience development and
engagement.
Did the symphony dream up this rolefor you or was it something you felt
(05:27):
passionate about and then wanted to bringin? How did that relationship begin?
My previous symphony,the Chattanooga Symphony,
I had the same position of concertmaster,
but I was doing this anyway and hadtried a number of different projects.
And so that was appealing to the WichitaSymphony and their executive director
talked and we came up with creatingan actual position for this.
(05:50):
And we've really expanded theopportunities and really put a focus
on why this is important andbeing able to capture the data of
how many new people are coming, whatkind of experience are they having...
So just breaking down thebarriers, building the bridges,
and making everybody feelcomfortable, feeling welcome,
(06:11):
feeling like they belong, notjust like they're fitting in,
but they actually feel like they belongin the arts and that their opinions
matter. And that kind of empathy,
just engaging on that kind oflevel, just empowers the audience.
And they know whenthey're being listened to,
they know when they're being included.
(06:34):
And I think we've got a really goodsystem going at the Wichita Symphony for
building with sincerity.
Yeah,
it feels like there's a lot of activelistening and hospitality towards guests
that you're bringing in,actually listening and hearing what they have to say.
Exactly.
I think that takes a whole team aswell. I think many arts organizations,
(06:56):
the onsite engagement landssquarely on the marketing team.
What are some of the benefitsof involving more voices,
specifically artistic voices?
Right. You're right.
The artistic voices have theexperience on the art side.
We are the ones that have the passion.
We've spent years learning the symphonies,
(07:17):
learning the concert repertoire.We are very familiar.
I think involving artists with theparticipation of audience and getting
conversations going helps create alandscape that is kind of a shared
experience where it's just not one sided,
but also informing the musicians,the artists, to listen too.
(07:37):
Because we're asking themto listen to our music,
but we need to listen to their responseto our music. It's a conversation.
And then adding marketing into thatabsolutely helps craft a brand,
helps craft a succinct message and keepseverybody kind of going in the same
direction.
So as concertmaster,
do you feel better positioned in someways to guide newcomers through the art?
(08:01):
I do. I think it's because it,it's a platform kind of seat.
It's a leadership.
I'm second face of the orchestraright after the music director,
and I'm not just putting in bowings,
the bow direction up or down for thesection, which is a choreography,
if you will, for the orchestra.I'm not just telling my section,
(08:22):
you're too loud, you're tooquiet. We can play this this way.
I'm looking at the audience,I'm looking within the audience.
I'm inviting them into our world.
And so being a liaisonactively helps me do
the concert master job as wellas the audience engagement job.
And that is by choice. Noteverybody's comfortable with that.
(08:43):
And you've helped implementseveral on-site engagement tactics.
Can you walk us throughsome of your favorites?
Yes, there have been many.
I first started doing foodmetaphors, food and drink metaphors.
We would have a winetasting at one function,
I think this was before I came toWichita, where we were coming up with
(09:07):
what does this wine taste likeand what music pairs well with it?
And using terminology that fits boththe wine world and the music world.
You want it to be smoothand mellow or really crisp
and sparkling.
Those words work in the music worldjust as well as the wine world.
And to pair these with wines and havingthe wines being tasted while the music
(09:30):
was being played helps people findtheir own language of enjoyment,
their own way of discovering,
allowing their curiosity to manifest alittle bit more naturally than "Here is
how to enjoy a piece of music.
And this is what you need to know."I think getting to food and the wine and
even coffee metaphors helps expand. Sothat's something we've started doing.
(09:56):
We've created cocktailsto go with certain themes,
and it doesn't alwayshave to be theme-based,
but it just could be one ideathat can spark. For instance,
I'll tell you what I've got coming up.
We're going to be performingthe Mahler Symphony Number One.
Within that, Mahler quotessome cuckoos, some birds,
(10:16):
and he references a field,a meadow of birds singing.
And that's cool. But I thought,
wouldn't it be fun to gather a bunch ofpeople and have a bird expert walk us
through a nature preserveand look at birds.
We don't have to necessarily talk aboutMahler's piece from top to bottom and
(10:37):
the significance of the firstand the second movement,
and let's put ourselves in Mahler's shoesand walk through that meadow and feel
and hear the birds and just have alittle bit of friendship built in.
And then say, by the way, we're goingto be playing something similar to this.
Mahler was inspired by what you justheard basically. So those kinds of things.
(10:58):
Awesome.
And what sort of feedback did you receivefrom audiences about these engagement
initiatives?
They loved it because it'sopen to our musicians,
our audience, our staff, our board.
And I think having all of thosestakeholders have a beer, have a wine,
share over a burger...
(11:18):
It's important to experience the concertagain through other people's eyes,
but just getting to share the storiesand the perspectives gives a 360 degree
view of that one concert.
And I think that when you don'thave that communication afterwards,
you're missing a huge opportunity.
I've definitely changedhow I view films. Like,
my wife and I used to-in New York,we used to walk to the cinema,
(11:42):
watch something and then walk backand it was a half hour walk each way.
And every so often we'dstop for a drink somewhere.
And I remember there wasone film, the Green Knight,
where I saw it and I didn't think thatmuch of it. And then on the walk home,
by the time I'd walked home,
I completely changed how I viewedit because we've discussed it.
You are sort of re-experiencing itwith other people after you sort of
(12:04):
tear it apart and chat through it.
I think that's exactly it. And ifan orchestra has a second concert,
it gives a chance to say, hey,I want to hear this again.
And then you can have another ticket.
And funny story about that violinconcerto that I mentioned earlier:
the audience engagement from that
on the second day,
(12:25):
that sold more than the first day becausepeople wanted to see it and experience
it again because afterwards they alltalked with each other and said, oh,
I love this part. This reminded meof this and this sounded like that.
And it just kind of gives a chance toopen the door to experience a piece of art
again, but with a different perspective.
Do you have a sense of whetherthese efforts have grown the symphony's number of
(12:48):
new attendees? If so,
do they typically return for morethan one performance per season?
I don't have the hard data on that,
but my perception is I just look at thesocial networks of friends that I've
created and they're bringing their friendsin and they're being a mouthpiece and
saying, hey, we're going to the symphony.
So they create a social networkwhere they invite people and then it
(13:11):
expands after that. But I don't have,
"We've increased our tickets by 20%." ButI'm seeing the social networks expand.
That's what excites me.
Yeah, that sense of community remindsme... I do a lot of improv comedy,
as I've mentioned before on the podcast.
And the theaters that are alwaysmost successful have a bar
(13:32):
associated with them or an area wherepeople can hang out and chat after the
show. And as improvisers, we loveto tear apart our own performance,
as I'm sure classical music also hasas well, where you go deep into it,
but also you can chat with theaudience and bring people in.
Like an oyster knife almost.Just opening it up for people,
(13:52):
something that can seemquite dense and intimidating.
I think it is veryintimidating. And like you say,
just opening up just a crackand inviting people in on their
terms, not our terms.
But I think shoving all theinformation all at once at the
same time is exhausting.
(14:14):
And it's intimidating andnobody wants to feel stupid.
They don't want to feel dumb.
They don't want to feel like they'renot welcome because there are so many
avenues into enjoying the art.
And that's what I've kind ofcentered my whole life around.
(14:34):
Going back to the wine metaphor,
you've actually written aboutthe similarities between classical music and the
wine industry before.
What are some of the big lessons we canborrow from that industry for elevating
the audience's experienceof classical music?
Well, I think the book that I readthat inspired this was by Bianca
(14:54):
Bosker. The book is called Cork Dork,
and she's a journalist who takes,
she just drops everythingto become a wine expert,
to just take you through the wholejourney. And as I was reading this,
it's struck me what a metaphorour two industries are.
We're selling expensive luxury items,
(15:15):
and you don't need wine. Youdon't need to go to the orchestra.
I'm going to argue that you mightneed to later, but you don't need it.
There's a lot of snobbishand stereotypical
things associated with both the wineindustry and the orchestra industry.
A lot of jargon, wordsthat make it sound extra
(15:36):
snobby. Both disappearafter they've been enjoyed.
You sip the wine, it's gone. You go toa concert after it's done, it's gone.
Wow. I love that point. I'venever thought about that before,
how they're both ephemeral in nature.They disappear after you've enjoyed them.
That's such a great metaphor. I love that.
Yeah, exactly.
(15:57):
And both offer something that'senjoyable and can offer a way for people
to get together and have communityand have social networks through these
things.
But where the wine industry is differentfrom where the orchestra industry is
currently is, they'vedone more data research,
they've done more consumer testing,
(16:19):
and the blog that you're referencingwas called the Merlott Effect.
And I got a little bit of flack frompeople because I went through the Yellow
Tail Winery as an example ofhow they did some data testing
and consumer blind tastetesting. And people said, oh,
but that's not real wine. I'mlike, you're missing the point.
(16:40):
You're missing the point.
So they mix some certain grapes andit doesn't count as real wine in the
true wine enthusiast's mind,
but that's exactly the point that wehave to struggle with in the orchestra
world.And so both,
if you want to try to find-thisis a terrible metaphor,
but one could almost argue that thepops material for orchestras could
(17:03):
be considered the YellowTail of the wine industry.
But that's a gateway in, and allyou do is like what you just said,
you just get an opening.
There might be something on that popsprogram that makes somebody curious,
and if they feel curious enough andwelcome to fit in, to feel a belonging,
they're going to go check out the MahlerSymphony, the Hindemith Symphony. And
(17:26):
it's just finding that taste.
And let's talk about the importanceof closing the loop with audiences,
not just inviting them to see a show,
but creating that feedback loop thatreally involves them in the artistic
experience.
Yeah, I think typically we'vekind of come to this business,
the orchestra business,
as we're going to advertise and thenpresent the concert and then invite you to
(17:49):
the next one. And weseem so confident about
knowing that Beethoven willsell a house out. Really? How?
Maybe just from past ticket sales,
but are we missing somethingelse by not talking to somebody?
So right now, traditionally,
audiences aren't really invited to havea voice, but it's their experience.
(18:11):
And if you look at companies like Amazon,I mean, as soon as you buy something,
they're like, how'd you likethe thing you've just bought?
And then you're invited toleave five stars or a comment.
We don't really allow accessfor that in this industry,
and I think we're missinga great opportunity.
So post-concert talkbacksand after-concert hangs,
(18:33):
for those that want to stick around.Surveys are another
thing.
People can get bogged down with emailsurveys and they might not be fun,
but I played with one orchestraand they had in the front lobby,
it was super simple, justa big piece of sheet paper,
and it had the three pieces onthe program and the composers,
(18:57):
and all you had to do was pick yourtwo favorites just by putting an X.
It was very simple and kidswere invited to do that as well.
So you could just kind ofsee the favorite piece.
And I like that because that gives anaudience an immediate chance to say,
here's how I felt. Myopinion matters. I love that.
And how can closing the loop helpinform future marketing decisions and
(19:20):
programming choices?
I think that the biggest thing is theaudience knows they're being heard,
but when you share that because ofthe reaction we've gotten from the
audience, we're programminga Philip Glass Symphony,
that kind of gives a little bitof social proof that we didn't
choose this, but our audience did,
(19:40):
and we are happy to presentit for you and with you.
And closing that loop by allowingthem to share their opinions
helps them promote, ultimately,
because then the audience can say to theirneighbors or to the people in church,
"Hey, they're going to be doingthis Philip Glass Symphony,
something I'm familiar with."And to see that validates an
(20:04):
opinion.
And it gives stakes almost inthe future programming, right?
If you recommend something andthen the programming reflects that,
you kind of feel like,oh, I made that happen.
And audiences are different fromcity to city, state to state.
So what may work in one city willprobably not work in the other.
And that's where I also think thatthe industry can get a little flawed
(20:28):
is, oh, they sold outplaying a Mahler Nine,
we should do a Mahler Nine,assuming that it'll sell out.
And that doesn't really inform thatyou've been listening to your audience
because it could bethe Janáček Sinfonietta
that sells your house out becauseyou already have a relationship.
But it also helps reassuretrust with an audience.
(20:51):
And that's something that we really,really do in Wichita Symphony.
It's a partnership with our musicdirector, Daniel Hege, and myself,
is we listen to the audience,we program with them,
and then they feel they are heard.
And that trust is pretty automaticnow, so that when we put on something,
the audience knows it is withthem in mind. With and for them.
(21:22):
Arts organizations are still strugglingto recover from the financial effects of
the pandemic, which meansbudgets are especially tight.
How would you respond to department headsand executive directors who question
the ROI of on-site engagement?
It's really hard to get an ROI-return on
investment-on engagement,
(21:43):
like a post-concert hangor a special recital,
wine pairing kind of thing.
You can't really track that that winepairing recital is going to influence
directly the final concert of the season.
But what it does is it buildsrelationships long-term and builds trust
(22:04):
long-term. And I think that youstart to feel [that]. But it should,
audience engagement projectsshould never be, oh,
we are really comingup against hard times.
We need to do more audience engagementand expect it to turn around in two or
three months.
My nearly 10 years withChattanooga Symphony,
(22:25):
before I switched over to Wichita,
it took about six years toreally develop the relationships,
to really get to know the people andto make them feel welcome and hear what
they wanted, too.
Certain situations in that city wouldnot work in Wichita and vice versa.
And so finding that rhythm,
it's not an overnight thing and itwon't happen in a matter of months.
(22:47):
Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of,
we often think about returning to themission and not being completely focused
on ROI because they kind offeed into each other sometimes.
Yeah, they absolutely should. I thinkwhen you start to lose the mission,
when you start to panic about finances,
that's when you need to just step on thebrakes and go, why are we doing this?
(23:09):
Yes.
And if you are sincere with yourmission, sincere with your purpose of,
why are we doing this? Well, we'representing an art to an audience. Why?
Because they need it. Why?
Because maybe they need to escape theirlives for two hours or maybe they need
to be challenged. Why? The nextwhy is, are we listening to them?
(23:30):
To what they're not saying becausethey're not comfortable? They may say,
"Can you play Beethoven Five? I guaranteeyou're going to sell a house out.
My whole family will come because thatis what they know." But finding ways,
and this goes back to the wine tasting,
finding ways of sampling differentkinds of music and making people feel
intelligent about why they'relistening to this, why they like that,
(23:51):
and to let them come totheir own conclusions.
I think that different resultswould start to manifest.
Yeah,
that deeper listening remindsme of notes on writing.
There's a concept of what's the noteunderneath the note that you get?
Listen to the note they're sayingand take that first level of, yeah,
(24:11):
they didn't like this bit,
but what they're really tryingto say underneath the note.
And that deeper listening is just aboutengaging more with that audience and
understanding the audience even more.
Exactly. Exactly to the point.
And this is why I like the post-concerthangs so much to close the loop,
because very often we'll have anew piece of music on the front.
(24:33):
We just had a concert this past weekendin Wichita where we played a piece by
Nokuthula [Ngwenyama].Brand new piece, gorgeous.
And we played Hindemith Symphony,
and then we ended withRachmaninoff Piano Concerto.
The feedback from that concert-while theRachmaninoff piano concerto was like,
oh my goodness, thesoloist, she's amazing,
it's one of my favorite pieces-thefeedback about the first piece was
(24:57):
unbelievable. People wantedto hear that again and again.
They want to hear more fromNokuthula. And now knowing that,
that gives them a name that they canremember, a piece that they can remember,
something they're familiar with thatthey weren't necessarily familiar with
before. So hopefully orchestras will say,
this is the kind of music people want butthey can't articulate because they are
(25:18):
only familiar with the comfort levelof saying Beethoven and Mozart,
because that's what oursociety has pumped into them.
But finding what they're not saying,you find that out at the concert,
the post-concert hangs,
and then deeply listening to them changeshow you program and changes how you
involve your audiences.
(25:38):
Yes. Yeah. Let's talk aboutapplause in classical music,
you feel pretty passionately about theaudience shaming that can happen when
new attendees don't knowthe customs of performances,
like not clapping between movements.
This is something that I definitelyfeel. I think the first time,
one of the first bits of classicalmusic I ever saw, was Elgar.
(26:01):
And in between the movements,
I automatically went to clapbecause I'm primed to clap anyway.
I am the sort of weirdo who, I quite likeit when we clap when the plane lands.
It's my worst trait.
But why is this audience onaudience shaming so harmful?
(26:22):
Oh my gosh, this is the hill.... oneof the many hills I'll probably die on.
Audience on audience shaming.We, meaning the industry,
can make people feel ascomfortable as possible,
but it is the fellow audiencemembers who dictate the final...
whether they're comfortable or not.
And we currently are doingnothing to help that situation.
(26:45):
And by nothing,
I mean we don't really stand in front ofthe orchestra before a concert and say,
the next piece is four movements-orfour segments or four chapters or in
four parts,
because what is a movement?-and what we
would like... the intention with the X, Y,
Z symphony is to havea cohesive sound with
(27:10):
the tension of the silence.
Or have the person stand in front ofthe orchestra before the concert and
say, clap when you feel likeit, you have our permission,
our blessing.
If you feel the joy or you feel thatwe really rocked it out of the park,
we want you to express that.This is your experience.
(27:33):
That informs the regulars who arethe traditionalists that we are
seeing. There's going to be applause,or we're trying to make an agreement
that eliminates theshame and the feedback.
And the opposite point ofthat is people will say,
well, it's written in the program.
(27:54):
And usually in the program it's smalland it's kind of in the back when to
clap, what to wear, those kind ofthings. Nobody reads the program, nobody.
And if you're reading the program,you're not listening to the music.
And if you're reading the program andyou got there a half hour before the
concert,
then you're not having a good timeenjoying the lobby drinks and that kind of
thing.
(28:15):
And then if you want to also argue thetraditionalists that say no clapping
between movements, in Mozart's time,
they were clapping betweenmovements and within the movements.
He wrote his father and said, "Theyloved this violin passage so much,
they were clapping within the movement.".
As a performer,
do you find yourself gettingsurprised by people's reactions?
(28:37):
Or when people do clap, is that kind ofthrilling? Or how is that experience?
I'm surprised now when they don't clap.
It kind of is a little bit heartbreakingafter putting out this amazing sense
of energy after the firstsegment, movement, chapter,
whatever you want to call it. Andhaving that silence is just like,
"But we just did a great thing. Wejust performed this amazing thing.
(29:01):
And you're sitting there like,nothing?" It just feels so incongruent.
One of my favorite examples are likethe Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto or the
Piano Concerto, the first movement,
you want to just rocketout of your seat and go,
"Bravo!" because it ends on such a
thrilling note, thrilling dynamic.
(29:23):
And I think it's not normal just to
repress. You're paying to have a feeling.
And then when you're notinvited to express joy,
that's just weird. And thepolite applause in between...
Somebody might feel thatthey want to clap in between,
and then the shushing thathappens is embarrassing.
(29:44):
So I'm trying to prevent that.
This is something that I'm wanting toaddress so that we don't shame people
who are going to be future ticket buyers.
We want people to feelwelcome on their own terms.
And reiterate that there areno rules, just traditions.
There's nothing worsethan getting shushed.
It feels just like a mixtureof embarrassment and anger
(30:05):
and shame of being shushed.
It's totally shaming.
And why would you want to comeback to re-experience that feeling?
I wouldn't, nobody wants to feelthat. It's a horrible feeling.
Our listeners work across a widespectrum of artistic genres,
(30:27):
from classical music to contemporarytheaters to film houses,
and it seems like all ofthem are struggling to break down barriers for their
art forms so that more peoplecan enjoy what they do.
What's your advice forhow arts administrators in other genres can similarly
break down barriers for newaudiences to enjoy their art?
I think it is finding the similaritiesand then appreciating the differences.
(30:51):
And that goes on to just one-on-onebasis or just small groups
and hopefully let thattransfer out. For example,
I'm going to bring back thebirdwalk I've got planned.
You're building a language thatputs everybody on the same level,
and when you start to puteverybody on the same level,
then you can start tointroduce, by the way,
(31:13):
if you liked listening to that bird,you might listen to our Mahler Symphony.
Or if you liked tasting this wine,
you're really going to love thecomplex nature of this piece.
It eliminates your experiencelevel as knowing a Bach
piece or an experiencelevel here or there.
And I think finding that littlevulnerability together helps actually
(31:37):
build a path forward intothe art, into the genre.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
staff, and boards of a thousand artsorganizations, what would that be?
I think as arts administrators and asartists-and this goes for everybody on
the other side of thestage, not the audience,
(31:58):
but people who are very familiarwith our art-I think find the most
uncomfortable thing that you don'tknow anything about. And go to it.
And I'll give you an example.
When we first moved toChicago a number of years ago,
I'd never been to a hockey game, andI thought, this is uncomfortable.
I am a classical, classicallytrained musician. Tell you what,
(32:20):
if you stand up in a hockeygame while the puck is in play,
you'll get chastised. Ilearned that the hard way.
There are rules.
And I think feeling that opens yourmind and makes you look into your
own art and your ownexperience differently.
So I would encourage everybody to go tosomething that they are not comfortable
(32:42):
with, with open eyes and an openheart and feel that vulnerability,
feel the shame.
I'd also encourage everybody to gothrough their own ticket buying process.
Know what it's like to buy a ticket,
know what it's like to park in thepaid parking, not the employee parking,
but the paid parking.
Know what it's like to not understandwhere you're going to sit and just
(33:04):
feel it in the most vulnerable way.
And the best way to feel vulnerableis to find something that you're not
interested in and do it becauseit really opens your mind very
fast.
I love that answer. It reminds me of,
I was just getting into Americanfootball and my wife and I,
we went to an Eagles game becauseher family's from Philadelphia,
(33:26):
and it was the Eagles versus the Jets.
We were there a little lateand we saw them kick off,
and they did really well in returningit. We were cheering, we were cheering...
We were cheering for the wrong team.
And we were surrounded by Eagles fanswho were looking at us in our brand new
Eagles hoodies thinking, what theheck are you cheering about like that?
(33:46):
It was the most embarrassing momentI've ever felt as an audience
member.
I think that's a reallyvaluable tool to have though,
because you can flip that easily intosomebody who just clapped in the wrong
place, and you can flip that intosomebody who maybe came in jeans
that have holes in them.
But I think it really opens up yourmind to the possibilities of feeling
(34:11):
that I'm out of place. I don't fit,
and I am not belonging at all. So yeah,
you are not selling tickets to yourself.You're not marketing to yourself.
I keep seeing orchestras thatseem to be focusing on the
orchestra, focusing on the maestro,
focusing on the guest artist inthe print copy, in the video copy,
(34:33):
but you never see theaudience enjoying the thing.
I think that's the biggest reminderthat we have to have is there are people
that are different than us thatwill still enjoy the art we present.
So we need to not look at,how would I buy a ticket? But,
how are 50 other very different peoplewho might be hockey fans or football fans
or Led Zeppelin fans, how arethey going to be marketed to?
(34:58):
How are they going to be buying a ticket?
That's marvelous. I love that.That's such a great message.
Thank you so much for joining us, Holly.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
(35:19):
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
(35:40):
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, andYouTube for regular content to help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacity interactive dot com so you
(36:01):
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please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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