November 21, 2024 • 47 mins
In today’s post-pandemic world, keeping our audiences engaged and organizations financially healthy can feel like an uphill battle. Changing audience behaviors have disrupted traditional marketing strategies, and high churn rates among first-time visitors, subscribers, and donors are slowing revenue growth. But what if there’s a way forward that breaks from the traditional playbook?
In this episode, CI President Priya Iyer Doshi sits down with industry leader Aubrey Bergauer to discuss her new book, Run It Like A Business. Aubrey draws inspiration from outside the arts to rethink how organizations can boost relevance, drive revenue, and better serve our communities. Discover how adapting for-profit strategies for non-profit goals can help move your organization forward.
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CI to Eye with Aubrey Bergauer (1:30) - CI President Priya Iyer Doshi sits down with Run It Like A Business author Aubrey Bergauer to discuss some of the book’s key ideas that can make a big difference in our organizations.
CI-lebrity Sightings (44:25) - Dan shares his favorite stories about CI clients in the news.
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LINKS:
Aubrey Bergauer | Run It Like A Business Book Bonuses
CI to Eye | Bucking Trends with Disciplined Communication
Washington Post | The 20 best art museums in America
Washington Post | The best small art museums in America
Boston Globe | The Top 100 Women-Led Businesses in Massachusetts in 2024
Oregon Arts Watch | City announces $4 million+ in arts grants
The Guardian | Small step or a giant leap? What AI means for the dance world
Art Net | Hey Besties, Gen Z Marketing Scripts Have Infiltrated Museums Around the World
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Hello friends! Dan here. Todaywe're joined by an incredible guest.
Aubrey Bergauer is a leader inarts management and advocacy,
celebrated for her innovative,
data-driven approach totransforming arts organizations.
Aubrey was first on CI to Eye back in2018 when she was making waves as the
executive director of theCalifornia Symphony. Since then,
she's launched her own business,Changing the Narrative,
(00:31):
and recently published a gamechanging book for our field:
Run It Like A Business.
It's chock-full of tips for runningsuccessful arts organizations in the
post-pandemic era and adaptingfor-profit methods for nonprofit
goals. In this episode,
CI President Priya Iyer Doshi sits downwith Aubrey and dives into some of the
book's key ideas that can make abig difference in our organizations.
(00:55):
Aubrey shares proven strategiesfor building brand relevance,
reimagining subscription models, andgetting more out of our digital content.
They also explore how evolvingorganizational structures can better serve our
missions and growth.
If you've ever felt liketraditional models were holding your organization back,
this conversation is the perfectpush to try something new.
(01:16):
Aubrey's insights arepractical and eye opening,
and we know they'll leave youinspired. Priya, over to you!
Well, Aubrey, welcome back to CI to Eye.
It's so good to have you back.
(01:38):
Hi, Priya. I'm super excited tobe doing this with you. Thank you.
Yeah, we're so grateful for youbeing here. And for our listeners,
your last time on the podcast wasback in 2018 and your life looked
very different back in 2018.
You were leading the CaliforniaSymphony at the time,
and I know since you have done so, somuch. You have launched your business,
(02:01):
Changing the Narrative.
You have published a book that I'm soexcited to dig into with you today,
Run It Like A Business. So it'sbeen a few years for you, huh?
Yeah,
I cannot believe it's even been over fiveyears since I've gone full time in my
business. Longer than thatsince I was here on the podcast.
When I left the California Symphony...
(02:22):
everything I'm doing now isa side hustle. Everything,
all the speaking and the consulting,
these are now all thingsI've become known for.
And I thought at the time thatI couldn't keep doing both.
I had to make a choice of what'sthe next chapter going to be.
And I remember I was so stressed aboutit and I just knew I wanted to make an
impact beyond one organization.And now just to share it,
(02:44):
I've worked, over five years later,
I've worked with hundreds of organizationsand individuals across all types of
artistic disciplines and budgetsizes. Orchestras, operas, theaters,
dance companies, I mean, you name it.
And two years ago I just startedchanging the business model to scale,
and that's just been a really excitingthing. And then the book this year.
And anyway, so all to say it's beena lot. As I'm recapping, like, wow,
(03:08):
five plus years, it'spretty amazing to, I dunno,
have a moment to look back a little. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I mean it'sbeen amazing to watch.
I've been following yourjourney this past five years,
and I remember you and I metbackstage at Boot Camp back in 2018.
That was the year thatwe met. And since then,
obviously we've seen each other atvarious conferences and things like that.
(03:31):
But your journey is inspiring andit's just been incredible to watch.
And I'm so excited to be hereto talk about your book today.
And I'll be honest, it's sitting righthere. It is one that sits on my desk.
Amazing.
And I often grab it and itis just full of such deep,
insightful, concreteadvice for our industry.
(03:53):
So I'm a huge fan.
And I wonder if we could just start byyou sharing what moved you to write this
book? What was the pointwhere you were like,
"I got to write this thing,"and then ultimately did that?
Yeah,
I was just seeing so often inour industry that we approach
our challenges with programming. Ifwe just program fill in the blank,
(04:16):
we will bring in newaudiences, younger audiences,
diverse audiences or whatever it is.
And kind of a thesis of the bookis that the art is not the problem.
And in fact, the art isour greatest strength.
And so I've just been seeingit long before I was on my own,
but for as long as I've been in thisindustry, which is now almost 20 years,
which is another just crazy moment.
(04:36):
Mind-blowing.
So it's just been kind of everywhereI've been. And like I said now,
hundreds of organizations later,
I was just seeing this everywhereand I thought, this is not it.
This is not solving our challenges, notaddressing our problems, as we know.
And so I thought, okay,
it's time to put pen to paper on whatelse is there to address these challenges.
(04:57):
That's not to say we don'tneed to talk about our product,
we don't need to talk aboutrepresentation in our product. I mean,
there's all kinds of things,
but just the idea that that alone is notgoing to solve these things for us was
really the impetus.
And so the book is really aboutoptimizing everything else
surrounding our art.
So many people in organizationshave asked me over the years,
(05:19):
what's the playbook, Aubrey? Sohere we go. If you want a playbook,
I would say this wasmy best attempt. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean it was a great attempt. Itis a fantastic playbook. I'm curious,
are there specific parts of this bookor specific principles that you've
found people really latching onto?
I know you've been traveling a ton thisyear doing book signings and presenting
(05:40):
and all of those things, talkingto tons and tons of people.
So are there patterns emerging on partsof the book that are really resonating
for people?
Yeah, there's a few things comingto mind. One is people are saying,
I feel like I can do this now.
I feel like everything you wrote aboutis actionable and I feel empowered.
I feel inspired. When I hear thosethings, I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes,
(06:03):
we can do it. You can do it." So
I feel like that's been a real justgeneral type of response that I've seen,
just this idea that itgives me hope, which for me,
just talk about personal fulfillmentto feel hope in our industry,
which can feel sometimes just heavywhen the work before us is so much.
And so for people to say,
(06:24):
I feel hope that we absolutely cancreate the future we want for our
arts organizations. That'sbeen really amazing to see.
And then I'll just add onemore thing that I'm seeing,
which I think is so important.So I want to mention it,
which is that board members as a categoryof people have been reading this book
more and more. And that's partof why I titled it this way,
(06:44):
but we know if our boardsdon't change, nothing changes.
And so just to see boardmembers emerging saying, okay,
I feel like I can govern my institutiona little better now... That, I think,
is really big. Yeah.
That is awesome. I mean,
I think there are so many books thatsort of spin in the conceptual space and
philosophical approach,
(07:06):
and I love to hear that youare getting the feedback on how
tangible this is and how usefulit is for people to again,
literally keep on their desk and thinkabout action they're going to be taking
as a result of it. That's awesome.
Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's dig in.
So I know the first few chapters of thebook are really focused on this idea of
(07:29):
maximizing revenue and growing audiences,and that's such a clear priority,
especially for the marketing audiencethat we have listening today.
So just thinking about the waythat we package as opposed to
what we're selling itself,the art is not the problem,
but there is someopportunity in packaging.
And so can you talk a little bit aboutthat opportunity that you see for arts
(07:51):
and cultural institutions to reallyshift the way that they're packaging what
they're selling specifically?
Yeah, this is exactly why it'schapter one. We all want more revenue.
We all want to grow our audiences.So right out of the gate, I was like,
we got to talk about this. Sowe say we need new audiences.
That has been our mantra for as longas I can remember in this business.
(08:14):
And yet the data show,
we are actually on the whole prettygood at getting new audiences.
This is actually pretty good news for us.
And where we reallystruggle is to retain them.
And sowhen we talk about packaging,
chapter one is really aboutuser experience research,
and the idea is just going toyour audience or in this case,
(08:37):
potential audiences. So chapterone is really about the newcomer.
And so 10 years ago is the first time Iembarked on a user experience research
project, and we went to kind ofpeople who should go to the orchestra,
you self-identify as I go tolive entertainment options.
I feel like I'm generallyculturally aware, I'm educated,
all those things that we would say areprobably the profile of who we serve.
(08:58):
But for whatever reason, Idon't go to the symphony.
That was the first time I did it waswhen I was running the orchestra.
And so it was newcomers to the symphony.
And the important thingfor user experience
research is it is aboutasking how someone, a user,
feels. And so I just want to underscorethat for everybody listening. So often,
we send out surveys on "what was yourexperience like?" And user experience
(09:23):
research is really, it's different inthat it's about how somebody feels.
So why does this matter? Becausewe started learning things like,
"When I visit your website,
I feel overwhelmed." "When I read yourprogram page and it's artist, conductor,
title of piece,
I feel confused." "I don't know whatRomantic is versus Baroque." And
so I would say that's a whole categoryof things when we talk about the
(09:45):
opportunities before us. Okay,that's the opportunity online.
There are so many things we canchange that are copy changes.
Raise your hand if you want freechanges that make a big impact!
Copy changes on our website! Anyways,
there's just a whole bunch there aboutjust the language we use and how do we
address these feelings that people arehaving that are pretty hard to hear,
but negative,
(10:05):
difficult feelings about this thing we'retrying to sell. And if we talked about
online experience, then I wouldsay also the in-person experience,
and the feelings we werehearing there are... even,
I was going to say, even worsethan online. Harder to hear.
It was feelings of when we talk about,
I don't know when to applaud and weprobe, but what's the feeling behind that?
(10:27):
The feeling is "I feel unwelcome"or "I feel ashamed when I
applaud at the quote wrong time andsomebody shushes me." and it's like,
oh my God, these people are coming toour institutions and they feel shame.
And I'm like,
no wonder why the stat I share in thebook is 90% or up to 90% of first time
attendees never come back. Soagain, not a new audience's problem,
(10:50):
it's a retention problem. AndI'm like, well, no wonder.
I don't go to places where Ifeel ashamed or unwelcome either.
Of course.
So anyways, the good news is thesefeelings absolutely can be addressed.
And that's what the restof the chapter is about.
What do we do to start to combat thesedifficult emotions and what can we do to
make other types of emotions, positiveemotions, part of their experience?
(11:13):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's all aboutchanging the perception, right?
I'm remembering how it felt to watchyour Boot Camp presentation back in 2018
because these facts,
these truths about the way that peopleperceive our organization and whether or
not our organization isinclusive of people like them,
and whether or not peoplefeel welcomed, like...
we're still having thoseconversations today.
(11:35):
And it hits as hard today as it didwhen I heard you say it back in 2018.
And I feel like we as marketerswork so hard to really think
strategically about the way that we'recommunicating with our audiences because
we care about their perceptionof our organization.
And I think this type offeedback is so hard to hear,
but so important to not deflect.It can make a real difference.
(11:59):
And ultimately it's the key topeople wanting to come at all,
let alone come back. Right?
Exactly. Yeah. Hard to hear,but so actionable actually.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
So let's shift to another pieceof the book that I really enjoyed,
which is the subscription economyor the membership economy, which --
(12:19):
all of this again is aboutretaining audiences and how do you get people to want
to come back? How do you get peopleto want to commit at certain levels?
So in the book you talk about,
we all know subscriptions andmemberships are down in our industry,
but outside of our industry, weknow subscriptions and memberships,
that economy is actually booming.
So can you talk a little bit about someof those opportunities that you see for
(12:43):
us to consider as inspiration for ourown subscription and membership models?
Yeah, this question as you just laidit out was plaguing me. Plaguing me.
I was like, how is it that... We knowwhat the graph looks like in our industry,
right?
Yes, we do.
And I was like, how is that thecase? And yet everywhere else,
subscription and membershipeconomy is thriving, booming,
(13:05):
and to the tune of -- this was somethingI learned in my research -- 20%,
around 20% of all creditcard transactions globally go
to the membership economy. So that'sour Amazon Prime, our Netflix,
everything else we buy onsubscription. And I was like,
20% of all of our creditcard transactions. And so I was like, does not compute.
What do we do about this?And so I started going
(13:30):
deep into the research, deepinto what's working elsewhere,
everything I could learn,I just became, like I said,
it was plaguing me and Iwas determined. I was like,
I've got to figure this out. So okay,
there's a lot of thingswe are doing differently.
And so just to name afew of those things...
So one is what I now callthe first year cliff.
So this is actually right on the heelsof the conversation we were just having
(13:50):
about retention. So we were talkingabout first time attendee retention,
but now let's talk about first yearsubscriber retention and first year donor
retention. So nationwide,it's pretty similar.
No matter your artistic discipline,
it's about 50% of firstyear subscribers don't
renew.
They fall off that first year cliff.And all the data show,
(14:14):
once we get somebody in for a secondyear and definitely a third year,
those renewal rates are way, wayhigher. So it's like that first year,
and this is true, this is what Ilearned across any industry, any sector,
always that first renewalperiod, whatever it is --
your first month on some other program,or your first year as a subscriber --
always that first year is the hardest,
but it's like if we just get thatnumber better, a little better,
(14:37):
it just sets us up for so muchmore recurring revenue later.
So first year cliff, andthen on the donor side,
this comes from the Associationof Fundraising Professionals.
So across all nonprofits,
the renewal rate for first year donorsand across all nonprofits is 19.
19% first year donors. Yeah,
I thought the subscription first yearcliff was pretty bad. For donations,
(14:58):
it's even crazier.
Wow.
Yeah. Wow is right. Andso I just thought, again,
if we just can do some things to just getthose first year retention numbers up,
it just really, it's like... Now I sayit's like retention is compound interest.
It just gets better and better and easier.
So I would say a second thing thatwe do very different than pretty much
(15:19):
everybody else that has a thrivingsuccessful subscription or membership
business is how we do renewals.And so what happens every month?
Netflix does not ask me if Iwant to renew my subscription.
They do not. They do not.
So this idea that whatwe do is we opt everybody
out for them. And this istrue for donations too,
(15:40):
generally on the subscriptionand donation side,
we wipe the slate clean atthe end of every season,
and now I can't unsee it. I'm like, ohmy gosh. We literally cancel for them.
And so I know everybody listeningis like, well, what do we do?
We have to legacy peoplein. And yes, yes, yes.
There's a million waysto roll something out.
And I'm not saying we rip off abandaid that's going to hurt us,
(16:01):
but when I started goingdeep on this, I was like,
this is a key defining thing thatis different. So how do we start?
And we talk about this a lot and inmy Run It Like A Business Academy.
How do we start to move towardmaking the customer opt out for
themselves? Anyways, there's a wholebunch we could talk about there too,
but I just want to name that it's apretty big difference between us and
everybody else.
(16:21):
And then the last thing I'llsay is we are pretty bad
at behavioral repetition,
and that's this idea that wehave to help people form a habit.
And whether that habit is you came onceand we want you to come just a second
time before we upsell you tosubscription, donation, gala,
fill in the blank thing,
(16:42):
or a habit of you just are inyour first year of subscribing.
We only want you to renew before wesolicit you for this other thing or
whatever.
So helping people form a habitis a key factor that makes other
subscription businesses more successful.
And so it's like if we canjust have discipline because we know there's a bigger
prize, if we can just keep thembuilding that habit right now. Anyways,
(17:05):
so much to say on all of this, butI hope for everybody listening,
it just gets the gears turningand there's just a lot we can do.
And I talk about it of how do we startto address some of these things to really
take advantage of what is now sort ofstandard practice across the subscription
and membership economy, and howdo we apply that to our work?
Yeah,
I feel like some of thesechanges can feel kind of radical.
(17:29):
Even just the idea of something likeauto renewal where instead of asking our
audiences to opt inagain, again every season,
to just default opt them in and thenthey can tell us if they want to opt out.
I think those changescan feel really radical.
And I think you have somereally interesting perspective on just the approach to
(17:50):
change.
How can we help our listeners thinkabout a change like that that can feel
so radically different than what we'vedone for so many years and kind of
balance this idea of:
we know that maybe a more modernflexible subscription or membership model
might serve us bettergiven all of this data,
but I feel paralyzed on whereto start or how to start.
(18:13):
Do you have some words ofwisdom maybe to help with that?
Yeah, this is what I doall day every day, Priya.
So often in our business,
we tend to think we have togo from zero to a hundred.
I don't know where this comesfrom, but actually I have a theory.
I have a theory that it's likewhen we put on a performance,
(18:33):
it essentially is perfect.That's our mission.
We try to do the highest artisticquality possible. And on the admin side,
we think we have to match that.When we roll something out,
it has to be all the way perfect. Andyet we forget that our artists rehearse.
And so what this has to do withchange management is change
happens slow. Every expert,every research study,
(18:55):
anything out there on change managementsays, don't go from zero to a hundred,
don't do the grand sweepingprogram, which we tend to do.
We roll out these big newinitiatives, the festival on this,
and it's like that's actuallynot what the research
shows is effective change management.
So this is great news for us becausewhat the research shows is that to do
(19:16):
something small, do a pilot test,do something on a small scale,
roll out the babiest of babysteps test, measure, refine,
and then we get to do it again.
That's called iteration andthat is how change is made.
So I'll give you an example.
So one of the organizations in my Run ItLike A Business Academy is Fort Collins
Symphony.
And they were very interested in thisquestion of moving toward auto renewals,
(19:39):
and they were trying to figure outhow do we do it? How do we get there?
And what do we do with our longtimers versus our new subscribers?
These are two different segmentswe can treat very differently.
And they were so worriedabout the core audience,
this is the question I get so often,what does the core audience think?
And so they decided theirbaby step was going to be
(20:01):
for their long time renewingsubscribers -- not the new subscribers.
Anybody rolling thisout for new subscribers,
I think they shouldn't get a choice new.They don't know any other way, but --
for long timers, they decided, okay,
we're just going to moveour renewal form to,
they made a bunch of changesto try to simplify the form.
They merged in every bitof information they can.
(20:22):
Why we ask existing subscribers tofill out their address is beyond me.
So they merged in everything they could.
That's great. Remove the friction.
Exactly. Remove the friction.And they said at the top,
check this box if you wanteverything the same for next season.
So it wasn't auto renewal, but it wasliterally one check mark and you can be
done.So for them,
(20:43):
that was the baby step of 'asfrictionless as possible,' as you said,
and they were nervous. What arethese people going to think?
We're merging in their seat assignmentand we'll just charge your card if you
check this box. Andyou know what happened?
They started getting thank you callsfrom their subscribers saying, amazing.
Oh my gosh, you made this so easyfor us. Thank you. Oh my gosh.
(21:06):
And so they were so nervousand instead what they got was,
"what took you so long?".
That's incredible.
Yeah,
so I just share that storybecause we get so I think just
entrenched in, "but this is whatwe do and how it's been done,
and there's comfort in that and Iknow that." And so that's why the baby
(21:26):
steps I think really are helpful.
We just push it a little bitand then what do we learn? Okay,
it's going to be okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And I thinkwhat an approach like that,
like a pilot and a more iterativeapproach gives us too is real
data to couple with the stories thatwe already tell ourselves about our
audiences and how they're going to feeland what they're going to do and how
(21:48):
they're going to react with a pilot,
we get the opportunity to actually seehow they react and actually see how
they feel.
And I think the other thing that canhappen is you hyperfocus on the loudest
voice in the room.
So you have some people who feel frictionwith specific things and they're very
vocal about it and they tell you about it,
(22:08):
and all of a sudden you believe thatthe entirety of your subscriber base
feels that specific way.
And I think that's another beautifulthing of the idea of a beta or the idea of
a pilot, because you are wading in,
you're making some sort ofiterative shift and you get to
stop telling yourself thestory without the data.
(22:30):
You actually get the data andmaybe the data supports your story.
That definitely happens sometimes too,
but also sometimes you get thank youcalls where you thought people would go up
in flames, you get something real.
So I really appreciate that too.
It's a great pro tip for boards too,
because another category of questions Ialways get is how do I get my board on
(22:52):
board with this? And it's like, we'rejust going to call it a pilot test.
Nothing is etched in stone. Yeah.
Yes. It's a beta. Always changing.
Always a beta.
Yes. Yes, totally. That's amantra at CI. Always in beta.
I love it.
Let's talk a little bitmore about audiences.
And we've already mentioned a handfulof times in this conversation so
(23:15):
far this focus on new audiencesand diversifying audiences
and just such an important commongoal for our industry and one that
needs as much weight aswe can possibly give it.
And you had a line in your book that Ireally enjoyed that I'm going to quote
right now:
"Stop serving Mexican food to Mexicanpeople." I love that line because I
(23:37):
think it illustrates so clearlythe point you're making,
which is that is not the sole keyto success and solutions for all the
things we're trying to solve right now.
Can you talk just about someother opportunities that you see
in just getting us closer to this goalof diversifying and bringing in newer
audiences to our space?
(23:57):
Yeah, I first, I have to give creditwhere credit's due. So Salvador Acevedo,
he's the managing director at Scansion,
and he has done a lot ofarts research in his role.
And so he's the one who gave thatline. I interview him in this chapter,
so just to give credit to him.
And we try to solve ourchallenges through programming.
So what does that mean on this questionof specifically diversifying our
(24:19):
audience? It often looks like,
let's do the Dia de los Muertos concertor the Black History Month program or,
in opera, let's program Porgy andBess again. Or something like that.
And I just want to say there'snothing wrong with those programs.
When authentically done andthoughtfully done, no problem.
And yet what we're seeing isthat the same data is true.
(24:40):
The people who do comeout for those concerts,
it's 90% of those first timers aren'tcoming back again. So none of the stats
are changing and they'renot becoming subscribers,
and it's not certainly not changingour overall demographic composition.
So that's where I go back to,
then there's got to be a differentway to achieve these goals that are so
necessary for our sector.
(25:02):
And what I've learned is that reallywhat I just described is very siloed
programming.
And we tend to do this not even justwith racial or ethnic demographics,
but we say, let's do the movieconcerts to bring in the young people.
Let's do that. So we do thiswith age demographics too.
And the ideas that these siloedprogramming choices are, like I said,
they're not really serving the biggergoals we have. So what do we do?
(25:23):
The data show that a blending ofcultures is really the sweet spot.
So instead of segregatedprogramming or siloed programming,
it's blending the program.The best example in my opinion,
and this goes right back to thetitle of the chapter, is food.
So many of us eat all kinds of food.And to quote Salvador Acevedo again,
it's like,
"Stop serving Mexican food to Mexicanpeople." We have multifaceted identities,
(25:47):
is another way to parse this out.
We're not just our gender or ourethnicity. We are also a mother,
a sister, or whatever. We haveinterests outside of our jobs.
We know these things about ourselves.
And so that is how peopleapproach entertainment choices
too. I don't just go to the symphonybecause it's a Dia de los Muertos concert,
(26:09):
and we see this a lot in pop musictoo. I cite it in the chapter,
but the top global hits,
the last five of them wereactually a blending of genres,
and there's just somethingthere about that. So anyways,
this chapter really is just talkingabout embracing our full identities,
reflecting people's full identitiesand what we do. And when we start doing
that, basically it's not just aboutthe titles we put on the program,
(26:33):
but it just is a muchmore holistic approach,
an approach that looks a lotmore like the world around us.
And it starts informing otherchoices besides, like I said,
besides the program, but whoare the people performing,
who is working front of house, whois on staff making these decisions?
That's a big one. That'sthe next chapter actually,
is talking about who's on staffmaking these decisions. So anyways,
(26:56):
all to say it just becomes not just amore reflective and authentic approach,
but the data bears out a moreeffective approach as well.
And I think coming to an organizationand seeing a more blended
representation, like the entireexperience of being at that organization,
it doesn't feel like there'ssolely representation on the stage,
(27:18):
but there is representation throughoutthe space that you are existing in that
feels different and goes back to thesense of welcome and belonging and
inclusion. So it's a beautiful approach,
not only across the programming piece,which is certainly a part of it,
but the entire organization.
What does blend look like across theentire organization? I really like that.
(27:39):
Exactly. Yeah.
Okay. So let's turn inward a little bit,
just speaking about the teams andorganizational structure inside
of these organizationsand actually the people.
So you said one of my favoritebuzzwords lately earlier in your
response, which is silo.
And we know that silos are verypresent when we think about
(28:02):
just the clear,
strong departmental linesthat exist inside of arts and
cultural institutions inthe traditional sense,
and I would say most arts and culturalinstitutions today still follow a
traditional organizational structure.You are development, you are marketing,
you are front of house,et cetera, et cetera.
(28:22):
And one of the things that your booktalks about is the idea of vertical
work versus horizontal work and how the
organizational structure can support oneor the other just based on the way that
you set things up.
So maybe can you just startby introducing this idea of
(28:43):
vertical versus horizontal work?
What's the difference and what are yougetting at there between those two types
of work?
Yeah, so I'll start by saying, I'llback up and zoom out just a little bit.
We have had our current organizationalstructure in arts and culture for
40 years, 40 plus years at this point.
And when we first came up withthis model of our structure,
(29:07):
it made a lot of sense. It served usvery well for a long period of time.
And then to our own credit,we got more complex,
we got more sophisticated in ourmarketing, in our fundraising, as we know,
of course, the landscape has changedquite a bit around us in 40 years.
Forget the last 40 years.Let's talk about the last five.
So where this is going is any businesspretty much changes their structure
(29:30):
within 40 years of existing.
And so maybe the old structurejust isn't quite serving us as
well as it used to.
So vertical versus horizontal work.So vertical work is what we're
all much more used to. It'skind of what we described.
The development department does thisvertical, which we call fundraising.
The marketing department does this othervertical, which we call ticket sales.
(29:52):
And the education departmentdoes this other vertical,
which is bringing music appreciationor art appreciation to children.
For a lot of organizations, that's whatthe education department looks like.
And on and on and on. Finance, HR,all these other verticals. Okay.
So that's the work weare pretty accustomed to.
Horizontal work is workthat affects all of us.
(30:13):
And so in the book, Icontend that, for example,
when we talk about community engagementor being relevant to our community,
some of the conversation we were justhaving, we literally call sometimes our
education department "communityengagement." And I'm like,
this is not the job ofone team or department.
If we're talking aboutwhat we were just saying,
(30:34):
like who's making these decisions andhow are we reflective of our communities
that we want to serve?That's horizontal work.
It is all of our jobsacross the institution to contribute to these kinds of
goals. So that's just an example.
And thinking about it that way Iwould say in some ways is harder.
It's not just point a finger to thatperson's job or that department's job.
(30:56):
It takes building some institutionalmuscle to figure out, okay,
well if there's a goal thatreally does touch all of us,
what does that look likeand how do we define that?
And there's of coursework involved in that,
but it gets easier on the otherside of that work. I will say,
once you kind of do that,then you're like, okay,
it is clear how everybody'scontributing to fill in the blank.
(31:17):
So that's horizontal versus vertical work.
Yeah,
I think I was saying earlier when wewere talking about the membership and
subscription economy,
I think that can feel likea radical change to move
from this more siloed,
clear department style work to moreof the horizontal work where we
(31:39):
have shared goals and we're allsort of contributing to that.
Do you have organizations thatyou've worked with who are taking
this approach that maybe you can offerto our listeners as some inspiration?
I'll share about theAmerican Shakespeare Center.
So they joined my Run It Like ABusiness Academy, and they said,
(32:00):
we are all in on thisidea of patron retention.
And in the chapter I talk about desiloingmarketing versus development and what
part of that is horizontal work and whatpart of that is vertical work that just
needs to be better integrated.But they came and they said, okay,
this is what we want to do.
So total shout out to theirexecutive director, Vanessa Morosco,
(32:21):
and Stephanie Cabacoy, who -- originallyStephanie was head of development,
that is how she was hiredinto the organization.
Then they came to me and they said,
we want to convert that role tobasically head of patron loyalty
and combine those marketingand development functions.
So the tactical parts actuallyweren't the difficult parts of how
(32:45):
do we figure out reportingstructure and dah dah dah.
That actually was notthe most difficult thing.
Instead it was how do weget our board on board?
And so here we go rightback to change management.
I think it's important to say that fromwhat I learned from my vantage point,
this was not a super forward-thinkingboard. And I say that not to throw shade,
but to say I think they were normal.I think they were a normal board.
(33:08):
And so sometimes people, I tell thesestories and everybody's like, wow,
that Fort Collins Symphony boardmust have been forward-thinking.
That American Shakespeare Center boardmust have been really forward-thinking.
And total credit to the leaders on theboard who helped adopt these strategies.
But anyways, from where I sit,I think they were normal boards,
which means your board can do ittoo, is where I'm going with this.
So they faced all the same pushbackas so many of us is the point.
(33:31):
So they had several conversationswith the board over time,
and we really had to elicit (33:35):
what's the fear? Because it wasn't fear of change.
It was like... it turnedout as they probed,
some of the board members were worriedthey might not have as high touch
relationships with the staff. And itwas like, where is that coming from?
We said nothing about not having hightouch relationships with our major donors
and board members. Andso it was like, okay,
(33:56):
let's parse this out and help themrealize nobody's going anywhere.
We love you board members. And sothat was kind of interesting.
And then basically they had this big boardmeeting where it was kind of like the
crossroads moment, like, okay,we've talked about this for months.
Are you guys going to approve thetitle change in structure or not?
Let's decide here. So Stephanieand Vanessa prepared quite a bit,
(34:17):
and I remember Stephanie excitedlymessaged me afterwards and she said,
not only did they get their boardcompletely on the same page culminating in
this big board meeting orretreat or whatever it was, and they said on the spot,
she was like,
I raised $50,000 from boardmember contributions wanting to support this work.
(34:37):
She was so, of course, whowouldn't be so excited?
Some of us have had those momentswhere you're like, yes, we did it.
We really galvanized everybody.
We got everybody facing thesame way marching forward.
And so this season right nowthat we're in, they're doing it.
They're bringing those revenue generatingfunctions together and in a way that
they complement each other,marketing and development,
(34:57):
not compete for dollarsfrom the same household.
And so that's whatthey're doing right now.
That is awesome. That message is amazing.
Awesome. Yeah.
That's really awesome. Wow. Well,
let's zoom back out here aswe come to sort of the end
of our conversation. Ijust want to zoom out.
(35:18):
Obviously we've talked about manydifferent tactics in the book today,
and there are many, many more. Againlisteners, if you have not yet,
I highly recommend you get it onAmazon or at your local bookstore,
wherever you can get it.
But I think a lot of thiscomes to the idea of change
management and change itselfcan feel just incredibly
(35:40):
difficult, incredibly overwhelming.
I think the story youjust told is inspiring,
but I'm wondering if perhaps you canoffer some words of wisdom on just how
organizations generally canconsider approaching change.
Where can they start whenthey get overwhelmed?
Thinking about all of the stakeholdersthat they need to get involved and on
board and aligned, or how quicklythey want to move or need to move,
(36:03):
where can they start?
How can they sort of calm andground themselves as they embark on
this journey?
I think it's "start small." I mean, whenwe feel overwhelmed, that's part of it.
It just feels like the pointB feels so far away or so
high or something that that's usuallywhere the emotion of overwhelm comes from.
(36:24):
So instead it's like, breakit down. What's the smallest,
smallest baby of a step? So it goesback to that. What is the pilot test?
How can we do this on a very smallscale and just see how the cards fall?
I just can't stress that enough becausethis is something I see all the time.
I was joking that every day, thisis what I do, but it's kind of true.
And so we just have to build... maybe anappetite for testing, is a word for it.
(36:47):
This is totally Capacity Interactivelanguage, I think, but let's test it.
But I, I mean, I said this earlier,
we know what the graph looks like. Weknow what the graph looks like if we don't
change. And so that shouldbe our impetus to be curious,
to want to try some new things,but try them on a smaller scale,
not swinging for the fences. I thinkthat's just the key, and such good news.
(37:08):
And I have -- for anybody whowants more on change management,
I have a whole article on my blog aboutthis where I really go deep into more
about what the research shows and howdo we get others to buy into that future
that we want,
that picture and vision we want topaint that we're advocating for.
So I think that's all really important.
And then I'll just give onemore tip here, which is:
(37:29):
don't try to do everything all at once.
There's a book of 10 chaptersof different strategies,
and I give this advice a lot, which isno, no, no, just pick one, maybe two.
And even within each ofthose chapters, it's like,
we're only going to work on our websitefor the next season or whatever.
And it's like, if that's theonly thing you do, that's okay,
and be proud of that and carve thoseboundaries for yourself as an institution
(37:52):
so that -- We get the shiny objectsyndrome. Oh, you should try this. Oh,
we should do that. Oh, weshould do that. And it's like,
that's not what I'm advocating for.
And sosome combination of pick a lane or two,
or pillar, and just say, this isgoing to be the focus for now.
And then when we getreally good at that thing,
then we will add on somethingelse. That's how change happens.
(38:13):
Yeah, yeah. What you weresaying about the data,
we know if we continuethe way that we're going,
we know what the picture will be.And it reminds me of that quote,
"The definition of insanity is repeatingthe same action and expecting a
different outcome." Something like that.
But it reminds me of that we all knowthe things that we want to change inside
(38:34):
of our industry today,
and we know that the actions oftoday are what have yielded the
results of today.
So what will the actions of tomorrowbe that yields different results?
Because the same actions of today can'tnecessarily yield different results for
tomorrow.
That's right. If we wantdifferent results, we have to do something differently.
(38:55):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I thinkthat's incredibly inspiring. I'm curious,
I think when you think about changeor impact in an organization,
oftentimes it can feel like,okay, if I'm a senior leader,
I have the power to make thechange and I can make the impact.
So what advice -- One, I don'tbelieve that that's actually true,
(39:17):
but I think it's easy tobelieve that that is the truth.
But what advice might youoffer somebody in maybe a more
junior arts and culturalinstitution role who
hears your words, theywant to make an impact,
but they feel held back byexisting structures or traditions
or preconceived notions of whattheir actions can or can't do in
(39:41):
terms of making impactinside of the organization.
What sort of advice might you offer them?
There's a lot to say on this. Ithink the quick version would be,
no matter your role in the institution,definitely arm yourself with the data.
That was a game changer for me. Iremember being early in my career,
and at the time, this is sodating myself, but it was like,
we need to start social media channels.We need to have digital ads at the time.
(40:06):
Let's have a mobile friendlywebsite. At the time,
it was like those thingsweren't happening,
and I was the kid in theoffice not getting --
being dismissed for those ideas until Istarted equipping myself with the data
and like, oh, could,
can you guys just give me a hundreddollars to run some digital ads and I will
report back? Fast forward.
I ended up having to report at everyboard meeting going forward because they
(40:28):
realized, oh, this is making a difference.But really,
maybe these examples sound silly,
but the idea of going from "thisis what my gut tells me"...
Trust your instincts, of course,but how do you validate that?
And that goes right back to everythingwe said on run the pilot test and
everything. So no matter whereyou are in the institution,
even if you're more junior,get good at the CRM.
(40:48):
That was incredibly helpful tome early on where I could say,
this is what our data isshowing. I think it's just,
don't make it about your ownopinion. Come armed and equipped.
And that has made a big difference for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can't reject the data.The data is the data.
Data is the data.
The data is the data. What's next for you?
(41:08):
Do you have any projects that you'reworking on or research that you're excited
about?
I know you just have been all overpresenting on this book and signing books.
What's happening next?What's your mind on next?
What's next? Oh gosh.
I think in some ways it'sto celebrate this year.
I think this year has beenreally, it's been a good year.
(41:29):
Not every year do I come out saying that.
So I feel like just reallycelebrating that and enjoying that.
But I think for me now it's startingto think about that. To your question,
what is the next thing? AndI'm trying to find a way --
I'm super happy with how thebusiness is going. Continue that.
We've done a lot on scale. How do wesupport more organizations, all of that.
And then starting just to figure out,
(41:52):
the more I remove myself fromthe day to day of the business,
then that frees me. And so justreally, I don't have an answer,
but just really trying to figureout what does that look like next?
I wish I had the whole plan. I don'tknow. That's where my mind is right now.
It wouldn't be fun if you hadthe whole plan today. So I mean,
we're excited to continue to follow along.
(42:14):
And if people do want to follow alongand want to learn more about you,
where can they find you? Quick plug.
Yeah, thank you for that. Mywebsite is AubreyBergauer.com.
I've got some free downloadsfor anybody hearing all of this.
So if you go toaubreybergauer.com/book, you can get,
they're called book bonuses, butbasically if you buy the book,
you enter your order number,
(42:35):
and even if you already haveit and you want these bonuses,
no matter when you ordered,you can still get them.
But it includes the research roundup.What happened is everybody was like,
Aubrey, you talk about somuch data in your book,
and even just now in this podcastwe've talked about so much,
how do I get the CliffNotesversion? That's the download.
It's like all the top datapoints and their sources,
and it's all clickable if you need thatdata to go to the next board meeting or
(42:58):
whatever. So that's allthere. That's a free resource.
Lots of articles that I've mentionedas well. So that's all there.
AubreyBergaeur.com.
Awesome. And finally, we'vecome to our CI to Eye moment.
So this is our final questionof today's interview.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
(43:19):
staff, and boards of thousandsof arts organizations,
what would that message be?
I would say one more time (43:27):
The product is not the problem.
We should be so proud of that.Our product, our artistic product,
is our greatest strength, andwe have that in our corner.
So many organizations and industrieswant a strong product, but we have it.
And we've worked literally hundredsof years to get to that point,
and we should be so proud of that.
So the work before usthen is to optimize those
(43:51):
things surrounding that excellentproduct. And when we start doing that,
I feel like it blows thedoors wide open for us.
Beautifully said, we have abeautiful product. It's so important,
especially right now. Beautiful noteto end on. Thank you so much, Aubrey,
for being here. Thank youfor chatting with me today,
and we'll see you nexttime on the pod, I hope.
(44:13):
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Hi, everyone. Dan here, backwith more CI-lebrity Sightings.
Here are a few of our favorite storiesabout CI clients in the news. First up,
the Washington Post ranked the 20 bestart museums in America based on their
(44:38):
collections, exhibitions, andhistory of public engagement.
Those heavy hitters included the Whitneyand the Museum of Fine Arts Houston.
The Post also ranked theirfavorite smaller museums,
and we were excited to see our friendsThe Barnes Foundation, The Clark,
and The Phillips Collection onthe list. Speaking of rankings,
New England Conservatory was named oneof the top 100 women-led businesses in
(45:00):
Massachusetts according to theBoston Globe. Way to go NEC!
And on the opposite side of the country,
the city of Portland just announced over$4 million in general operating grants
for arts and culture organizations.Recipients include Portland Center Stage,
Oregon Ballet Theater, and Portland Opera.Fantastic news!
If you're looking for athought provoking read,
(45:22):
check out The Guardian's article,"Small Step or Giant Leap:
What AI Means for the Dance World"featuring insights from San Francisco
Ballet's artistic directorTamara Rojo. And finally,
if you haven't checkedout #MuseumTok recently,
Art Net reported on the growing trendof museums having Gen Z interns script
their social media content.
(45:43):
They included a roundup of theirfavorite takes on the trend,
and we agree that theLondon Philharmonic's video ate and left no crumbs.
Pop off, queens. Got a storythat deserves a shout out? Well,
tag us on social and let us know.
(46:07):
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
(46:28):
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and TikTok for regular contentto help you market smarter.
(46:49):
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacityinteractive.com so you never
miss an update. And ifyou haven't already,
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
Hello friends! Dan here. Todaywe're joined by an incredible guest.
Aubrey Bergauer is a leader inarts management and advocacy,
celebrated for her innovative,
data-driven approach totransforming arts organizations.
Aubrey was first on CI to Eye back in2018 when she was making waves as the
executive director of theCalifornia Symphony. Since then,
she's launched her own business,Changing the Narrative,
(00:31):
and recently published a gamechanging book for our field:
Run It Like A Business.
It's chock-full of tips for runningsuccessful arts organizations in the
post-pandemic era and adaptingfor-profit methods for nonprofit
goals. In this episode,
CI President Priya Iyer Doshi sits downwith Aubrey and dives into some of the
book's key ideas that can make abig difference in our organizations.
(00:55):
Aubrey shares proven strategiesfor building brand relevance,
reimagining subscription models, andgetting more out of our digital content.
They also explore how evolvingorganizational structures can better serve our
missions and growth.
If you've ever felt liketraditional models were holding your organization back,
this conversation is the perfectpush to try something new.
(01:16):
Aubrey's insights arepractical and eye opening,
and we know they'll leave youinspired. Priya, over to you!
Well, Aubrey, welcome back to CI to Eye.
It's so good to have you back.
(01:38):
Hi, Priya. I'm super excited tobe doing this with you. Thank you.
Yeah, we're so grateful for youbeing here. And for our listeners,
your last time on the podcast wasback in 2018 and your life looked
very different back in 2018.
You were leading the CaliforniaSymphony at the time,
and I know since you have done so, somuch. You have launched your business,
(02:01):
Changing the Narrative.
You have published a book that I'm soexcited to dig into with you today,
Run It Like A Business. So it'sbeen a few years for you, huh?
Yeah,
I cannot believe it's even been over fiveyears since I've gone full time in my
business. Longer than thatsince I was here on the podcast.
When I left the California Symphony...
(02:22):
everything I'm doing now isa side hustle. Everything,
all the speaking and the consulting,
these are now all thingsI've become known for.
And I thought at the time thatI couldn't keep doing both.
I had to make a choice of what'sthe next chapter going to be.
And I remember I was so stressed aboutit and I just knew I wanted to make an
impact beyond one organization.And now just to share it,
(02:44):
I've worked, over five years later,
I've worked with hundreds of organizationsand individuals across all types of
artistic disciplines and budgetsizes. Orchestras, operas, theaters,
dance companies, I mean, you name it.
And two years ago I just startedchanging the business model to scale,
and that's just been a really excitingthing. And then the book this year.
And anyway, so all to say it's beena lot. As I'm recapping, like, wow,
(03:08):
five plus years, it'spretty amazing to, I dunno,
have a moment to look back a little. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I mean it'sbeen amazing to watch.
I've been following yourjourney this past five years,
and I remember you and I metbackstage at Boot Camp back in 2018.
That was the year thatwe met. And since then,
obviously we've seen each other atvarious conferences and things like that.
(03:31):
But your journey is inspiring andit's just been incredible to watch.
And I'm so excited to be hereto talk about your book today.
And I'll be honest, it's sitting righthere. It is one that sits on my desk.
Amazing.
And I often grab it and itis just full of such deep,
insightful, concreteadvice for our industry.
(03:53):
So I'm a huge fan.
And I wonder if we could just start byyou sharing what moved you to write this
book? What was the pointwhere you were like,
"I got to write this thing,"and then ultimately did that?
Yeah,
I was just seeing so often inour industry that we approach
our challenges with programming. Ifwe just program fill in the blank,
(04:16):
we will bring in newaudiences, younger audiences,
diverse audiences or whatever it is.
And kind of a thesis of the bookis that the art is not the problem.
And in fact, the art isour greatest strength.
And so I've just been seeingit long before I was on my own,
but for as long as I've been in thisindustry, which is now almost 20 years,
which is another just crazy moment.
(04:36):
Mind-blowing.
So it's just been kind of everywhereI've been. And like I said now,
hundreds of organizations later,
I was just seeing this everywhereand I thought, this is not it.
This is not solving our challenges, notaddressing our problems, as we know.
And so I thought, okay,
it's time to put pen to paper on whatelse is there to address these challenges.
(04:57):
That's not to say we don'tneed to talk about our product,
we don't need to talk aboutrepresentation in our product. I mean,
there's all kinds of things,
but just the idea that that alone is notgoing to solve these things for us was
really the impetus.
And so the book is really aboutoptimizing everything else
surrounding our art.
So many people in organizationshave asked me over the years,
(05:19):
what's the playbook, Aubrey? Sohere we go. If you want a playbook,
I would say this wasmy best attempt. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean it was a great attempt. Itis a fantastic playbook. I'm curious,
are there specific parts of this bookor specific principles that you've
found people really latching onto?
I know you've been traveling a ton thisyear doing book signings and presenting
(05:40):
and all of those things, talkingto tons and tons of people.
So are there patterns emerging on partsof the book that are really resonating
for people?
Yeah, there's a few things comingto mind. One is people are saying,
I feel like I can do this now.
I feel like everything you wrote aboutis actionable and I feel empowered.
I feel inspired. When I hear thosethings, I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes,
(06:03):
we can do it. You can do it." So
I feel like that's been a real justgeneral type of response that I've seen,
just this idea that itgives me hope, which for me,
just talk about personal fulfillmentto feel hope in our industry,
which can feel sometimes just heavywhen the work before us is so much.
And so for people to say,
(06:24):
I feel hope that we absolutely cancreate the future we want for our
arts organizations. That'sbeen really amazing to see.
And then I'll just add onemore thing that I'm seeing,
which I think is so important.So I want to mention it,
which is that board members as a categoryof people have been reading this book
more and more. And that's partof why I titled it this way,
(06:44):
but we know if our boardsdon't change, nothing changes.
And so just to see boardmembers emerging saying, okay,
I feel like I can govern my institutiona little better now... That, I think,
is really big. Yeah.
That is awesome. I mean,
I think there are so many books thatsort of spin in the conceptual space and
philosophical approach,
(07:06):
and I love to hear that youare getting the feedback on how
tangible this is and how usefulit is for people to again,
literally keep on their desk and thinkabout action they're going to be taking
as a result of it. That's awesome.
Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, that's great. Okay, so let's dig in.
So I know the first few chapters of thebook are really focused on this idea of
(07:29):
maximizing revenue and growing audiences,and that's such a clear priority,
especially for the marketing audiencethat we have listening today.
So just thinking about the waythat we package as opposed to
what we're selling itself,the art is not the problem,
but there is someopportunity in packaging.
And so can you talk a little bit aboutthat opportunity that you see for arts
(07:51):
and cultural institutions to reallyshift the way that they're packaging what
they're selling specifically?
Yeah, this is exactly why it'schapter one. We all want more revenue.
We all want to grow our audiences.So right out of the gate, I was like,
we got to talk about this. Sowe say we need new audiences.
That has been our mantra for as longas I can remember in this business.
(08:14):
And yet the data show,
we are actually on the whole prettygood at getting new audiences.
This is actually pretty good news for us.
And where we reallystruggle is to retain them.
And sowhen we talk about packaging,
chapter one is really aboutuser experience research,
and the idea is just going toyour audience or in this case,
(08:37):
potential audiences. So chapterone is really about the newcomer.
And so 10 years ago is the first time Iembarked on a user experience research
project, and we went to kind ofpeople who should go to the orchestra,
you self-identify as I go tolive entertainment options.
I feel like I'm generallyculturally aware, I'm educated,
all those things that we would say areprobably the profile of who we serve.
(08:58):
But for whatever reason, Idon't go to the symphony.
That was the first time I did it waswhen I was running the orchestra.
And so it was newcomers to the symphony.
And the important thingfor user experience
research is it is aboutasking how someone, a user,
feels. And so I just want to underscorethat for everybody listening. So often,
we send out surveys on "what was yourexperience like?" And user experience
(09:23):
research is really, it's different inthat it's about how somebody feels.
So why does this matter? Becausewe started learning things like,
"When I visit your website,
I feel overwhelmed." "When I read yourprogram page and it's artist, conductor,
title of piece,
I feel confused." "I don't know whatRomantic is versus Baroque." And
so I would say that's a whole categoryof things when we talk about the
(09:45):
opportunities before us. Okay,that's the opportunity online.
There are so many things we canchange that are copy changes.
Raise your hand if you want freechanges that make a big impact!
Copy changes on our website! Anyways,
there's just a whole bunch there aboutjust the language we use and how do we
address these feelings that people arehaving that are pretty hard to hear,
but negative,
(10:05):
difficult feelings about this thing we'retrying to sell. And if we talked about
online experience, then I wouldsay also the in-person experience,
and the feelings we werehearing there are... even,
I was going to say, even worsethan online. Harder to hear.
It was feelings of when we talk about,
I don't know when to applaud and weprobe, but what's the feeling behind that?
(10:27):
The feeling is "I feel unwelcome"or "I feel ashamed when I
applaud at the quote wrong time andsomebody shushes me." and it's like,
oh my God, these people are coming toour institutions and they feel shame.
And I'm like,
no wonder why the stat I share in thebook is 90% or up to 90% of first time
attendees never come back. Soagain, not a new audience's problem,
(10:50):
it's a retention problem. AndI'm like, well, no wonder.
I don't go to places where Ifeel ashamed or unwelcome either.
Of course.
So anyways, the good news is thesefeelings absolutely can be addressed.
And that's what the restof the chapter is about.
What do we do to start to combat thesedifficult emotions and what can we do to
make other types of emotions, positiveemotions, part of their experience?
(11:13):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's all aboutchanging the perception, right?
I'm remembering how it felt to watchyour Boot Camp presentation back in 2018
because these facts,
these truths about the way that peopleperceive our organization and whether or
not our organization isinclusive of people like them,
and whether or not peoplefeel welcomed, like...
we're still having thoseconversations today.
(11:35):
And it hits as hard today as it didwhen I heard you say it back in 2018.
And I feel like we as marketerswork so hard to really think
strategically about the way that we'recommunicating with our audiences because
we care about their perceptionof our organization.
And I think this type offeedback is so hard to hear,
but so important to not deflect.It can make a real difference.
(11:59):
And ultimately it's the key topeople wanting to come at all,
let alone come back. Right?
Exactly. Yeah. Hard to hear,but so actionable actually.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
So let's shift to another pieceof the book that I really enjoyed,
which is the subscription economyor the membership economy, which --
(12:19):
all of this again is aboutretaining audiences and how do you get people to want
to come back? How do you get peopleto want to commit at certain levels?
So in the book you talk about,
we all know subscriptions andmemberships are down in our industry,
but outside of our industry, weknow subscriptions and memberships,
that economy is actually booming.
So can you talk a little bit about someof those opportunities that you see for
(12:43):
us to consider as inspiration for ourown subscription and membership models?
Yeah, this question as you just laidit out was plaguing me. Plaguing me.
I was like, how is it that... We knowwhat the graph looks like in our industry,
right?
Yes, we do.
And I was like, how is that thecase? And yet everywhere else,
subscription and membershipeconomy is thriving, booming,
(13:05):
and to the tune of -- this was somethingI learned in my research -- 20%,
around 20% of all creditcard transactions globally go
to the membership economy. So that'sour Amazon Prime, our Netflix,
everything else we buy onsubscription. And I was like,
20% of all of our creditcard transactions. And so I was like, does not compute.
What do we do about this?And so I started going
(13:30):
deep into the research, deepinto what's working elsewhere,
everything I could learn,I just became, like I said,
it was plaguing me and Iwas determined. I was like,
I've got to figure this out. So okay,
there's a lot of thingswe are doing differently.
And so just to name afew of those things...
So one is what I now callthe first year cliff.
So this is actually right on the heelsof the conversation we were just having
(13:50):
about retention. So we were talkingabout first time attendee retention,
but now let's talk about first yearsubscriber retention and first year donor
retention. So nationwide,it's pretty similar.
No matter your artistic discipline,
it's about 50% of firstyear subscribers don't
renew.
They fall off that first year cliff.And all the data show,
(14:14):
once we get somebody in for a secondyear and definitely a third year,
those renewal rates are way, wayhigher. So it's like that first year,
and this is true, this is what Ilearned across any industry, any sector,
always that first renewalperiod, whatever it is --
your first month on some other program,or your first year as a subscriber --
always that first year is the hardest,
but it's like if we just get thatnumber better, a little better,
(14:37):
it just sets us up for so muchmore recurring revenue later.
So first year cliff, andthen on the donor side,
this comes from the Associationof Fundraising Professionals.
So across all nonprofits,
the renewal rate for first year donorsand across all nonprofits is 19.
19% first year donors. Yeah,
I thought the subscription first yearcliff was pretty bad. For donations,
(14:58):
it's even crazier.
Wow.
Yeah. Wow is right. Andso I just thought, again,
if we just can do some things to just getthose first year retention numbers up,
it just really, it's like... Now I sayit's like retention is compound interest.
It just gets better and better and easier.
So I would say a second thing thatwe do very different than pretty much
(15:19):
everybody else that has a thrivingsuccessful subscription or membership
business is how we do renewals.And so what happens every month?
Netflix does not ask me if Iwant to renew my subscription.
They do not. They do not.
So this idea that whatwe do is we opt everybody
out for them. And this istrue for donations too,
(15:40):
generally on the subscriptionand donation side,
we wipe the slate clean atthe end of every season,
and now I can't unsee it. I'm like, ohmy gosh. We literally cancel for them.
And so I know everybody listeningis like, well, what do we do?
We have to legacy peoplein. And yes, yes, yes.
There's a million waysto roll something out.
And I'm not saying we rip off abandaid that's going to hurt us,
(16:01):
but when I started goingdeep on this, I was like,
this is a key defining thing thatis different. So how do we start?
And we talk about this a lot and inmy Run It Like A Business Academy.
How do we start to move towardmaking the customer opt out for
themselves? Anyways, there's a wholebunch we could talk about there too,
but I just want to name that it's apretty big difference between us and
everybody else.
(16:21):
And then the last thing I'llsay is we are pretty bad
at behavioral repetition,
and that's this idea that wehave to help people form a habit.
And whether that habit is you came onceand we want you to come just a second
time before we upsell you tosubscription, donation, gala,
fill in the blank thing,
(16:42):
or a habit of you just are inyour first year of subscribing.
We only want you to renew before wesolicit you for this other thing or
whatever.
So helping people form a habitis a key factor that makes other
subscription businesses more successful.
And so it's like if we canjust have discipline because we know there's a bigger
prize, if we can just keep thembuilding that habit right now. Anyways,
(17:05):
so much to say on all of this, butI hope for everybody listening,
it just gets the gears turningand there's just a lot we can do.
And I talk about it of how do we startto address some of these things to really
take advantage of what is now sort ofstandard practice across the subscription
and membership economy, and howdo we apply that to our work?
Yeah,
I feel like some of thesechanges can feel kind of radical.
(17:29):
Even just the idea of something likeauto renewal where instead of asking our
audiences to opt inagain, again every season,
to just default opt them in and thenthey can tell us if they want to opt out.
I think those changescan feel really radical.
And I think you have somereally interesting perspective on just the approach to
(17:50):
change.
How can we help our listeners thinkabout a change like that that can feel
so radically different than what we'vedone for so many years and kind of
balance this idea of:
we know that maybe a more modernflexible subscription or membership model
might serve us bettergiven all of this data,
but I feel paralyzed on whereto start or how to start.
(18:13):
Do you have some words ofwisdom maybe to help with that?
Yeah, this is what I doall day every day, Priya.
So often in our business,
we tend to think we have togo from zero to a hundred.
I don't know where this comesfrom, but actually I have a theory.
I have a theory that it's likewhen we put on a performance,
(18:33):
it essentially is perfect.That's our mission.
We try to do the highest artisticquality possible. And on the admin side,
we think we have to match that.When we roll something out,
it has to be all the way perfect. Andyet we forget that our artists rehearse.
And so what this has to do withchange management is change
happens slow. Every expert,every research study,
(18:55):
anything out there on change managementsays, don't go from zero to a hundred,
don't do the grand sweepingprogram, which we tend to do.
We roll out these big newinitiatives, the festival on this,
and it's like that's actuallynot what the research
shows is effective change management.
So this is great news for us becausewhat the research shows is that to do
(19:16):
something small, do a pilot test,do something on a small scale,
roll out the babiest of babysteps test, measure, refine,
and then we get to do it again.
That's called iteration andthat is how change is made.
So I'll give you an example.
So one of the organizations in my Run ItLike A Business Academy is Fort Collins
Symphony.
And they were very interested in thisquestion of moving toward auto renewals,
(19:39):
and they were trying to figure outhow do we do it? How do we get there?
And what do we do with our longtimers versus our new subscribers?
These are two different segmentswe can treat very differently.
And they were so worriedabout the core audience,
this is the question I get so often,what does the core audience think?
And so they decided theirbaby step was going to be
(20:01):
for their long time renewingsubscribers -- not the new subscribers.
Anybody rolling thisout for new subscribers,
I think they shouldn't get a choice new.They don't know any other way, but --
for long timers, they decided, okay,
we're just going to moveour renewal form to,
they made a bunch of changesto try to simplify the form.
They merged in every bitof information they can.
(20:22):
Why we ask existing subscribers tofill out their address is beyond me.
So they merged in everything they could.
That's great. Remove the friction.
Exactly. Remove the friction.And they said at the top,
check this box if you wanteverything the same for next season.
So it wasn't auto renewal, but it wasliterally one check mark and you can be
done.So for them,
(20:43):
that was the baby step of 'asfrictionless as possible,' as you said,
and they were nervous. What arethese people going to think?
We're merging in their seat assignmentand we'll just charge your card if you
check this box. Andyou know what happened?
They started getting thank you callsfrom their subscribers saying, amazing.
Oh my gosh, you made this so easyfor us. Thank you. Oh my gosh.
(21:06):
And so they were so nervousand instead what they got was,
"what took you so long?".
That's incredible.
Yeah,
so I just share that storybecause we get so I think just
entrenched in, "but this is whatwe do and how it's been done,
and there's comfort in that and Iknow that." And so that's why the baby
(21:26):
steps I think really are helpful.
We just push it a little bitand then what do we learn? Okay,
it's going to be okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And I thinkwhat an approach like that,
like a pilot and a more iterativeapproach gives us too is real
data to couple with the stories thatwe already tell ourselves about our
audiences and how they're going to feeland what they're going to do and how
(21:48):
they're going to react with a pilot,
we get the opportunity to actually seehow they react and actually see how
they feel.
And I think the other thing that canhappen is you hyperfocus on the loudest
voice in the room.
So you have some people who feel frictionwith specific things and they're very
vocal about it and they tell you about it,
(22:08):
and all of a sudden you believe thatthe entirety of your subscriber base
feels that specific way.
And I think that's another beautifulthing of the idea of a beta or the idea of
a pilot, because you are wading in,
you're making some sort ofiterative shift and you get to
stop telling yourself thestory without the data.
(22:30):
You actually get the data andmaybe the data supports your story.
That definitely happens sometimes too,
but also sometimes you get thank youcalls where you thought people would go up
in flames, you get something real.
So I really appreciate that too.
It's a great pro tip for boards too,
because another category of questions Ialways get is how do I get my board on
(22:52):
board with this? And it's like, we'rejust going to call it a pilot test.
Nothing is etched in stone. Yeah.
Yes. It's a beta. Always changing.
Always a beta.
Yes. Yes, totally. That's amantra at CI. Always in beta.
I love it.
Let's talk a little bitmore about audiences.
And we've already mentioned a handfulof times in this conversation so
(23:15):
far this focus on new audiencesand diversifying audiences
and just such an important commongoal for our industry and one that
needs as much weight aswe can possibly give it.
And you had a line in your book that Ireally enjoyed that I'm going to quote
right now:
"Stop serving Mexican food to Mexicanpeople." I love that line because I
(23:37):
think it illustrates so clearlythe point you're making,
which is that is not the sole keyto success and solutions for all the
things we're trying to solve right now.
Can you talk just about someother opportunities that you see
in just getting us closer to this goalof diversifying and bringing in newer
audiences to our space?
(23:57):
Yeah, I first, I have to give creditwhere credit's due. So Salvador Acevedo,
he's the managing director at Scansion,
and he has done a lot ofarts research in his role.
And so he's the one who gave thatline. I interview him in this chapter,
so just to give credit to him.
And we try to solve ourchallenges through programming.
So what does that mean on this questionof specifically diversifying our
(24:19):
audience? It often looks like,
let's do the Dia de los Muertos concertor the Black History Month program or,
in opera, let's program Porgy andBess again. Or something like that.
And I just want to say there'snothing wrong with those programs.
When authentically done andthoughtfully done, no problem.
And yet what we're seeing isthat the same data is true.
(24:40):
The people who do comeout for those concerts,
it's 90% of those first timers aren'tcoming back again. So none of the stats
are changing and they'renot becoming subscribers,
and it's not certainly not changingour overall demographic composition.
So that's where I go back to,
then there's got to be a differentway to achieve these goals that are so
necessary for our sector.
(25:02):
And what I've learned is that reallywhat I just described is very siloed
programming.
And we tend to do this not even justwith racial or ethnic demographics,
but we say, let's do the movieconcerts to bring in the young people.
Let's do that. So we do thiswith age demographics too.
And the ideas that these siloedprogramming choices are, like I said,
they're not really serving the biggergoals we have. So what do we do?
(25:23):
The data show that a blending ofcultures is really the sweet spot.
So instead of segregatedprogramming or siloed programming,
it's blending the program.The best example in my opinion,
and this goes right back to thetitle of the chapter, is food.
So many of us eat all kinds of food.And to quote Salvador Acevedo again,
it's like,
"Stop serving Mexican food to Mexicanpeople." We have multifaceted identities,
(25:47):
is another way to parse this out.
We're not just our gender or ourethnicity. We are also a mother,
a sister, or whatever. We haveinterests outside of our jobs.
We know these things about ourselves.
And so that is how peopleapproach entertainment choices
too. I don't just go to the symphonybecause it's a Dia de los Muertos concert,
(26:09):
and we see this a lot in pop musictoo. I cite it in the chapter,
but the top global hits,
the last five of them wereactually a blending of genres,
and there's just somethingthere about that. So anyways,
this chapter really is just talkingabout embracing our full identities,
reflecting people's full identitiesand what we do. And when we start doing
that, basically it's not just aboutthe titles we put on the program,
(26:33):
but it just is a muchmore holistic approach,
an approach that looks a lotmore like the world around us.
And it starts informing otherchoices besides, like I said,
besides the program, but whoare the people performing,
who is working front of house, whois on staff making these decisions?
That's a big one. That'sthe next chapter actually,
is talking about who's on staffmaking these decisions. So anyways,
(26:56):
all to say it just becomes not just amore reflective and authentic approach,
but the data bears out a moreeffective approach as well.
And I think coming to an organizationand seeing a more blended
representation, like the entireexperience of being at that organization,
it doesn't feel like there'ssolely representation on the stage,
(27:18):
but there is representation throughoutthe space that you are existing in that
feels different and goes back to thesense of welcome and belonging and
inclusion. So it's a beautiful approach,
not only across the programming piece,which is certainly a part of it,
but the entire organization.
What does blend look like across theentire organization? I really like that.
(27:39):
Exactly. Yeah.
Okay. So let's turn inward a little bit,
just speaking about the teams andorganizational structure inside
of these organizationsand actually the people.
So you said one of my favoritebuzzwords lately earlier in your
response, which is silo.
And we know that silos are verypresent when we think about
(28:02):
just the clear,
strong departmental linesthat exist inside of arts and
cultural institutions inthe traditional sense,
and I would say most arts and culturalinstitutions today still follow a
traditional organizational structure.You are development, you are marketing,
you are front of house,et cetera, et cetera.
(28:22):
And one of the things that your booktalks about is the idea of vertical
work versus horizontal work and how the
organizational structure can support oneor the other just based on the way that
you set things up.
So maybe can you just startby introducing this idea of
(28:43):
vertical versus horizontal work?
What's the difference and what are yougetting at there between those two types
of work?
Yeah, so I'll start by saying, I'llback up and zoom out just a little bit.
We have had our current organizationalstructure in arts and culture for
40 years, 40 plus years at this point.
And when we first came up withthis model of our structure,
(29:07):
it made a lot of sense. It served usvery well for a long period of time.
And then to our own credit,we got more complex,
we got more sophisticated in ourmarketing, in our fundraising, as we know,
of course, the landscape has changedquite a bit around us in 40 years.
Forget the last 40 years.Let's talk about the last five.
So where this is going is any businesspretty much changes their structure
(29:30):
within 40 years of existing.
And so maybe the old structurejust isn't quite serving us as
well as it used to.
So vertical versus horizontal work.So vertical work is what we're
all much more used to. It'skind of what we described.
The development department does thisvertical, which we call fundraising.
The marketing department does this othervertical, which we call ticket sales.
(29:52):
And the education departmentdoes this other vertical,
which is bringing music appreciationor art appreciation to children.
For a lot of organizations, that's whatthe education department looks like.
And on and on and on. Finance, HR,all these other verticals. Okay.
So that's the work weare pretty accustomed to.
Horizontal work is workthat affects all of us.
(30:13):
And so in the book, Icontend that, for example,
when we talk about community engagementor being relevant to our community,
some of the conversation we were justhaving, we literally call sometimes our
education department "communityengagement." And I'm like,
this is not the job ofone team or department.
If we're talking aboutwhat we were just saying,
(30:34):
like who's making these decisions andhow are we reflective of our communities
that we want to serve?That's horizontal work.
It is all of our jobsacross the institution to contribute to these kinds of
goals. So that's just an example.
And thinking about it that way Iwould say in some ways is harder.
It's not just point a finger to thatperson's job or that department's job.
(30:56):
It takes building some institutionalmuscle to figure out, okay,
well if there's a goal thatreally does touch all of us,
what does that look likeand how do we define that?
And there's of coursework involved in that,
but it gets easier on the otherside of that work. I will say,
once you kind of do that,then you're like, okay,
it is clear how everybody'scontributing to fill in the blank.
(31:17):
So that's horizontal versus vertical work.
Yeah,
I think I was saying earlier when wewere talking about the membership and
subscription economy,
I think that can feel likea radical change to move
from this more siloed,
clear department style work to moreof the horizontal work where we
(31:39):
have shared goals and we're allsort of contributing to that.
Do you have organizations thatyou've worked with who are taking
this approach that maybe you can offerto our listeners as some inspiration?
I'll share about theAmerican Shakespeare Center.
So they joined my Run It Like ABusiness Academy, and they said,
(32:00):
we are all in on thisidea of patron retention.
And in the chapter I talk about desiloingmarketing versus development and what
part of that is horizontal work and whatpart of that is vertical work that just
needs to be better integrated.But they came and they said, okay,
this is what we want to do.
So total shout out to theirexecutive director, Vanessa Morosco,
(32:21):
and Stephanie Cabacoy, who -- originallyStephanie was head of development,
that is how she was hiredinto the organization.
Then they came to me and they said,
we want to convert that role tobasically head of patron loyalty
and combine those marketingand development functions.
So the tactical parts actuallyweren't the difficult parts of how
(32:45):
do we figure out reportingstructure and dah dah dah.
That actually was notthe most difficult thing.
Instead it was how do weget our board on board?
And so here we go rightback to change management.
I think it's important to say that fromwhat I learned from my vantage point,
this was not a super forward-thinkingboard. And I say that not to throw shade,
but to say I think they were normal.I think they were a normal board.
(33:08):
And so sometimes people, I tell thesestories and everybody's like, wow,
that Fort Collins Symphony boardmust have been forward-thinking.
That American Shakespeare Center boardmust have been really forward-thinking.
And total credit to the leaders on theboard who helped adopt these strategies.
But anyways, from where I sit,I think they were normal boards,
which means your board can do ittoo, is where I'm going with this.
So they faced all the same pushbackas so many of us is the point.
(33:31):
So they had several conversationswith the board over time,
and we really had to elicit (33:35):
what's the fear? Because it wasn't fear of change.
It was like... it turnedout as they probed,
some of the board members were worriedthey might not have as high touch
relationships with the staff. And itwas like, where is that coming from?
We said nothing about not having hightouch relationships with our major donors
and board members. Andso it was like, okay,
(33:56):
let's parse this out and help themrealize nobody's going anywhere.
We love you board members. And sothat was kind of interesting.
And then basically they had this big boardmeeting where it was kind of like the
crossroads moment, like, okay,we've talked about this for months.
Are you guys going to approve thetitle change in structure or not?
Let's decide here. So Stephanieand Vanessa prepared quite a bit,
(34:17):
and I remember Stephanie excitedlymessaged me afterwards and she said,
not only did they get their boardcompletely on the same page culminating in
this big board meeting orretreat or whatever it was, and they said on the spot,
she was like,
I raised $50,000 from boardmember contributions wanting to support this work.
(34:37):
She was so, of course, whowouldn't be so excited?
Some of us have had those momentswhere you're like, yes, we did it.
We really galvanized everybody.
We got everybody facing thesame way marching forward.
And so this season right nowthat we're in, they're doing it.
They're bringing those revenue generatingfunctions together and in a way that
they complement each other,marketing and development,
(34:57):
not compete for dollarsfrom the same household.
And so that's whatthey're doing right now.
That is awesome. That message is amazing.
Awesome. Yeah.
That's really awesome. Wow. Well,
let's zoom back out here aswe come to sort of the end
of our conversation. Ijust want to zoom out.
(35:18):
Obviously we've talked about manydifferent tactics in the book today,
and there are many, many more. Againlisteners, if you have not yet,
I highly recommend you get it onAmazon or at your local bookstore,
wherever you can get it.
But I think a lot of thiscomes to the idea of change
management and change itselfcan feel just incredibly
(35:40):
difficult, incredibly overwhelming.
I think the story youjust told is inspiring,
but I'm wondering if perhaps you canoffer some words of wisdom on just how
organizations generally canconsider approaching change.
Where can they start whenthey get overwhelmed?
Thinking about all of the stakeholdersthat they need to get involved and on
board and aligned, or how quicklythey want to move or need to move,
(36:03):
where can they start?
How can they sort of calm andground themselves as they embark on
this journey?
I think it's "start small." I mean, whenwe feel overwhelmed, that's part of it.
It just feels like the pointB feels so far away or so
high or something that that's usuallywhere the emotion of overwhelm comes from.
(36:24):
So instead it's like, breakit down. What's the smallest,
smallest baby of a step? So it goesback to that. What is the pilot test?
How can we do this on a very smallscale and just see how the cards fall?
I just can't stress that enough becausethis is something I see all the time.
I was joking that every day, thisis what I do, but it's kind of true.
And so we just have to build... maybe anappetite for testing, is a word for it.
(36:47):
This is totally Capacity Interactivelanguage, I think, but let's test it.
But I, I mean, I said this earlier,
we know what the graph looks like. Weknow what the graph looks like if we don't
change. And so that shouldbe our impetus to be curious,
to want to try some new things,but try them on a smaller scale,
not swinging for the fences. I thinkthat's just the key, and such good news.
(37:08):
And I have -- for anybody whowants more on change management,
I have a whole article on my blog aboutthis where I really go deep into more
about what the research shows and howdo we get others to buy into that future
that we want,
that picture and vision we want topaint that we're advocating for.
So I think that's all really important.
And then I'll just give onemore tip here, which is:
(37:29):
don't try to do everything all at once.
There's a book of 10 chaptersof different strategies,
and I give this advice a lot, which isno, no, no, just pick one, maybe two.
And even within each ofthose chapters, it's like,
we're only going to work on our websitefor the next season or whatever.
And it's like, if that's theonly thing you do, that's okay,
and be proud of that and carve thoseboundaries for yourself as an institution
(37:52):
so that -- We get the shiny objectsyndrome. Oh, you should try this. Oh,
we should do that. Oh, weshould do that. And it's like,
that's not what I'm advocating for.
And sosome combination of pick a lane or two,
or pillar, and just say, this isgoing to be the focus for now.
And then when we getreally good at that thing,
then we will add on somethingelse. That's how change happens.
(38:13):
Yeah, yeah. What you weresaying about the data,
we know if we continuethe way that we're going,
we know what the picture will be.And it reminds me of that quote,
"The definition of insanity is repeatingthe same action and expecting a
different outcome." Something like that.
But it reminds me of that we all knowthe things that we want to change inside
(38:34):
of our industry today,
and we know that the actions oftoday are what have yielded the
results of today.
So what will the actions of tomorrowbe that yields different results?
Because the same actions of today can'tnecessarily yield different results for
tomorrow.
That's right. If we wantdifferent results, we have to do something differently.
(38:55):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I thinkthat's incredibly inspiring. I'm curious,
I think when you think about changeor impact in an organization,
oftentimes it can feel like,okay, if I'm a senior leader,
I have the power to make thechange and I can make the impact.
So what advice -- One, I don'tbelieve that that's actually true,
(39:17):
but I think it's easy tobelieve that that is the truth.
But what advice might youoffer somebody in maybe a more
junior arts and culturalinstitution role who
hears your words, theywant to make an impact,
but they feel held back byexisting structures or traditions
or preconceived notions of whattheir actions can or can't do in
(39:41):
terms of making impactinside of the organization.
What sort of advice might you offer them?
There's a lot to say on this. Ithink the quick version would be,
no matter your role in the institution,definitely arm yourself with the data.
That was a game changer for me. Iremember being early in my career,
and at the time, this is sodating myself, but it was like,
we need to start social media channels.We need to have digital ads at the time.
(40:06):
Let's have a mobile friendlywebsite. At the time,
it was like those thingsweren't happening,
and I was the kid in theoffice not getting --
being dismissed for those ideas until Istarted equipping myself with the data
and like, oh, could,
can you guys just give me a hundreddollars to run some digital ads and I will
report back? Fast forward.
I ended up having to report at everyboard meeting going forward because they
(40:28):
realized, oh, this is making a difference.But really,
maybe these examples sound silly,
but the idea of going from "thisis what my gut tells me"...
Trust your instincts, of course,but how do you validate that?
And that goes right back to everythingwe said on run the pilot test and
everything. So no matter whereyou are in the institution,
even if you're more junior,get good at the CRM.
(40:48):
That was incredibly helpful tome early on where I could say,
this is what our data isshowing. I think it's just,
don't make it about your ownopinion. Come armed and equipped.
And that has made a big difference for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You can't reject the data.The data is the data.
Data is the data.
The data is the data. What's next for you?
(41:08):
Do you have any projects that you'reworking on or research that you're excited
about?
I know you just have been all overpresenting on this book and signing books.
What's happening next?What's your mind on next?
What's next? Oh gosh.
I think in some ways it'sto celebrate this year.
I think this year has beenreally, it's been a good year.
(41:29):
Not every year do I come out saying that.
So I feel like just reallycelebrating that and enjoying that.
But I think for me now it's startingto think about that. To your question,
what is the next thing? AndI'm trying to find a way --
I'm super happy with how thebusiness is going. Continue that.
We've done a lot on scale. How do wesupport more organizations, all of that.
And then starting just to figure out,
(41:52):
the more I remove myself fromthe day to day of the business,
then that frees me. And so justreally, I don't have an answer,
but just really trying to figureout what does that look like next?
I wish I had the whole plan. I don'tknow. That's where my mind is right now.
It wouldn't be fun if you hadthe whole plan today. So I mean,
we're excited to continue to follow along.
(42:14):
And if people do want to follow alongand want to learn more about you,
where can they find you? Quick plug.
Yeah, thank you for that. Mywebsite is AubreyBergauer.com.
I've got some free downloadsfor anybody hearing all of this.
So if you go toaubreybergauer.com/book, you can get,
they're called book bonuses, butbasically if you buy the book,
you enter your order number,
(42:35):
and even if you already haveit and you want these bonuses,
no matter when you ordered,you can still get them.
But it includes the research roundup.What happened is everybody was like,
Aubrey, you talk about somuch data in your book,
and even just now in this podcastwe've talked about so much,
how do I get the CliffNotesversion? That's the download.
It's like all the top datapoints and their sources,
and it's all clickable if you need thatdata to go to the next board meeting or
(42:58):
whatever. So that's allthere. That's a free resource.
Lots of articles that I've mentionedas well. So that's all there.
AubreyBergaeur.com.
Awesome. And finally, we'vecome to our CI to Eye moment.
So this is our final questionof today's interview.
If you could broadcast one message toexecutive directors, leadership teams,
(43:19):
staff, and boards of thousandsof arts organizations,
what would that message be?
I would say one more time (43:27):
The product is not the problem.
We should be so proud of that.Our product, our artistic product,
is our greatest strength, andwe have that in our corner.
So many organizations and industrieswant a strong product, but we have it.
And we've worked literally hundredsof years to get to that point,
and we should be so proud of that.
So the work before usthen is to optimize those
(43:51):
things surrounding that excellentproduct. And when we start doing that,
I feel like it blows thedoors wide open for us.
Beautifully said, we have abeautiful product. It's so important,
especially right now. Beautiful noteto end on. Thank you so much, Aubrey,
for being here. Thank youfor chatting with me today,
and we'll see you nexttime on the pod, I hope.
(44:13):
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Hi, everyone. Dan here, backwith more CI-lebrity Sightings.
Here are a few of our favorite storiesabout CI clients in the news. First up,
the Washington Post ranked the 20 bestart museums in America based on their
(44:38):
collections, exhibitions, andhistory of public engagement.
Those heavy hitters included the Whitneyand the Museum of Fine Arts Houston.
The Post also ranked theirfavorite smaller museums,
and we were excited to see our friendsThe Barnes Foundation, The Clark,
and The Phillips Collection onthe list. Speaking of rankings,
New England Conservatory was named oneof the top 100 women-led businesses in
(45:00):
Massachusetts according to theBoston Globe. Way to go NEC!
And on the opposite side of the country,
the city of Portland just announced over$4 million in general operating grants
for arts and culture organizations.Recipients include Portland Center Stage,
Oregon Ballet Theater, and Portland Opera.Fantastic news!
If you're looking for athought provoking read,
(45:22):
check out The Guardian's article,"Small Step or Giant Leap:
What AI Means for the Dance World"featuring insights from San Francisco
Ballet's artistic directorTamara Rojo. And finally,
if you haven't checkedout #MuseumTok recently,
Art Net reported on the growing trendof museums having Gen Z interns script
their social media content.
(45:43):
They included a roundup of theirfavorite takes on the trend,
and we agree that theLondon Philharmonic's video ate and left no crumbs.
Pop off, queens. Got a storythat deserves a shout out? Well,
tag us on social and let us know.
(46:07):
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
(46:28):
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and TikTok for regular contentto help you market smarter.
(46:49):
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacityinteractive.com so you never
miss an update. And ifyou haven't already,
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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