August 27, 2024 • 39 mins
Social media is more than just a content dumping ground. It's where your organization makes its first impression on potential audiences and fosters relationships with existing fans. Press refresh on your paid and organic social strategies to tap new audiences, drive ticket sales, and cultivate brand loyalty in the season ahead.
Digital Download (2:10) - Dan sits down with CI Consultant Natalie Martinez to talk about advertising on TikTok: when it makes sense, how to get started, and the kind of results you can expect to see.
CI to Eye with Rachel Karten (17:20) - Dan catches up with Rachel Karten, a social media consultant and author of the popular newsletter Link In Bio. They discuss the evolving role of social media in the digital marketing landscape, and what most arts and culture organizations get wrong about organic content.
CI-lebrity Sightings (37:40) - Dan runs through our favorite stories about CI clients in the news.
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LINKS:
TikTok | Successfully Advertise on the World's Hottest Content Platform
Search Engine Land: 51% of Gen Z women prefer TikTok, not Google, for search
TikTok | Advertising Policies About Advertising to People Under the Age of 18
Taproot News | How arts organizations are working to attract younger audiences
Observer | Nicholas Baume On the Power of Public Art and What It’s Accomplishing in New York
New City Stage | Let There Be Luminance: How Lighting Designers Show Us the Show
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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(00:49):
Hello everyone, Dan here.
One of my favorite parts about Augustis that back-to-school feeling.
The air is crisp, the pencils are sharp,
and the notebooks are blankand full of possibilities.
There's something satisfyingabout a clean slate, right?
It's the perfect time to hit the resetbutton and gear up to conquer the year
ahead. And in today's constantlyevolving, social media-driven world,
(01:10):
refreshing your social strategy isjust as good as buying a fresh pack of
animal-shaped erasers.
That's because social is where yourorganization makes its first impression on
potential audiences and fostersrelationships with existing fans.
An A+ strategy is key to notjust healthy ticket sales,
but lasting brand loyalty.In today's episode,
(01:30):
we'll get your social grades up so youcan start the 2024-25 season at the top
of the class. First,
I'll sit down with CI Consultant NatalieMartinez to talk about advertising on
TikTok (01:40):
when it makes sense, how to get started,
and the kind of resultsyou can expect to see.
Then I'll catch up with Rachel Karten,
a social media consultant and authorof the popular newsletter Link In Bio.
We'll discuss ways to elevate yourorganic strategy and get more out of your
content. And for extra credit,
stick around until the end of the episodefor a lightning round of our favorite
(02:00):
arts stories in the news.Let's dive in, shall we?
So for today's Digital Download,I'm joined by Natalie Martinez,
a digital marketing consultant andTikTok platform specialist with CI.
(02:21):
Thanks so much for joining us, Nat!
Oh my gosh. Thanks so much for having me.
So a growing number of artsorganizations are joining TikTok,
but not many have started runningpaid campaigns on the platform.
Why should we consider addingTikTok to our paid strategies?
So there's a number of reasons,
and the first of course is that you'regetting in front of newer and younger
(02:45):
audiences. I know everyone thinksthat's where the kids are at.
And to an extent that is true.From a paid campaign perspective,
when we kind of give the platform freereign to serve to all of the age groups,
we do see a number of those impressionsskewing to some of the younger age
groups, whereas on Meta for example,
we tend to see thoseimpressions skew to 35 and up.
(03:09):
So if you have a show with alot of younger audience appeal,
if you have programs for youngticket buyers like 30 under 30,
or if you have rush discounts,
this is a good place to be if you havediscounted ticket offerings just because
along with younger audiencesdoes come less buying power.
(03:30):
Yeah,
I think one of the things that TikTokreally lends itself to is building brand
awareness.
And so by advertising on a platformthat does skew a little bit younger,
you are sort of building that audiencethat's going to come later in life,
hopefully.
Absolutely.
And because the ads are placedin the for you page where just,
if you're not familiar withhow the TikTok app is set up,
(03:52):
the for you page is a discover feed.
It is for people you don'talready follow most of the time.
So people are kind of expecting newthings to come across their for you
pages as opposed to their friends feed,
and that really helps in terms of themindset when you're then seeing an ad for
an organization you maybehave never heard of before.
(04:13):
And from a paid perspective,
when we give the algorithm freereign to spend accordingly across ad
groups,
despite the fact that we can now alsotarget CRM lists and retargeting pools,
a lot of the conversion data,
a lot of the impression share does tendto come from some of those acquisition
groups. So it's reallygreat for brand awareness.
(04:36):
And it can also fill the gaps of yourdigital strategy where targeting isn't
available on other platforms. Right?
That's one of the big trendswe were chatting about before.
Yeah, particularly for behavioraltargeting. If you recall,
a couple of years ago,
Meta really made some changes totheir interest targeting segments and
behavioral targeting to removeanything that may be seen as sensitive
(04:57):
information that includes anyoneinterested in health causes.
And it also included the deprecationof any sort of LGBTQ-friendly
interests on Meta. But on TikTok, wehave all of those available to us.
So if you have Pride programming,if you have queer icons performing,
(05:18):
and you want to be able to reachpeople with some of those interests,
TikTok is a great place to do that.
Great place to reach people interestedin the holidays. It's really nice.
We have a lot more flexibilityfor behavioral targeting here.
It's also worth mentioning that TikTokcampaigns aren't just for these big
organizations with money tothrow at just another channel.
(05:39):
It's also an efficient way to buildan audience if you are a smaller
organization, as long as itfits into your broader strategy.
Yeah, it's important to thinkof it as a strategic addition.
It's not going to work super,super well with everything.
But in those situations where you're kindof trying to fill a targeting hole on
(05:59):
Meta or where you do have theadditional budget to be able to sort of
develop new younger audiences,it's a great place to be.
But I don't think you needto be advertising on TikTok just for this sake of
being on TikTok.
I feel like when it really lendsitself to being a good opportunity,
that's when, especially for smallerorganizations with limited budget,
(06:21):
that's when you shouldreally take the leap.
I think over the last few years,
vertical video has become more prevalentand people are just naturally creating
more vertical videopieces of media right now.
So that kind of gives you an in, right?
Yeah. And so in years pasts,
I feel when there wasn't allof that vertical content,
it felt like such a burden to then haveto add to it just for something like
(06:44):
TikTok.
But now it's really great because youcan repurpose some of those assets and if
you're already creating vertical orientedcontent and you're not already on
TikTok,
it's good to keep in mind that you dowant to diversify the channels that you're
advertising on. You don't want to kindof get stuck in a rut in one or two,
and if you already have the assets,it's a really great place to use them.
(07:07):
And what kind of ad formats are welooking at here and what should we be
thinking about when creating TikTok ads?
We have a couple options.Obviously there's video,
which we're used to onTikTok, and that's for ads.
It's anywhere between five and60 seconds, ideally vertical,
although you can also run horizontaland square videos on TikTok.
(07:30):
And of course your caption isoverlaid over that video in white.
So we always want to be mindfulof what is behind that text,
making sure that the whitecaption is still legible,
but excitingly, we canalso run carousel ads now.
And unlike I think Meta wherewe have a maximum of 10 images
(07:51):
on TikTok, we can runanywhere between one and 35.
So now we have a bit more variety withthe types of assets we can run with
TikTok ads.
And what kind of ad placementsare available? Where are people seeing these ads?
The most applicable for arts organizationsis going to be your in-feed ads,
which if you have TikTok, these adsappear throughout the for you page,
(08:14):
and they're sprinkled in betweenusers' algorithmically delivered
organic content. These have a CTA,
so it's great for driving conversions,
and they appear verynative looking to the app,
so they do resemble the other ads thatyou're seeing across the platform.
And it's nice because TikTok did justrelease a case study comparing some of the
(08:38):
TikTok in-feed placements withthose of CTV and streaming.
And there's more of an ad recall,
there's a 23% recall lift with TikTokads compared to some of those CTV and
traditional TV placements.
There was an article a while ago thatwe talked about on the podcast about
TikTok being used as a searchengine, particularly among Gen Z.
And as a search guy, I do a lot of SEO.
(09:02):
I find this super interesting becauseit's such a useful way to do research.
Thinking about if you'replanning a trip, for example,
putting in "things to doin Hawaii." The content you
get is so incredibly usefulcompared to some of the so SEO
focused articles you get on Google. Also,
(09:22):
we can lean into thatwith ads as well, right?
Yeah, and this is exciting. This isa relatively new feature from TikTok,
but if you're running in-feedads, within that setting,
you can opt into also appearing onthe TikTok search engine results page,
which is great becausewhen you say search ad,
your brain goes to a Googlesearch. It's very text-based,
and it's not always as relevant as youwant it to be despite what Google claims.
(09:45):
And TikTok's search results arevery good at being relevant to each
individual user. So beingable to show your visual ads,
your video ads,
in the search resultsfeed is incredible. So,
very excited for people to be able totake advantage of that these days as well.
So when we're setting up these campaigns,
(10:07):
what kind of biddingstrategies are available? Is it similar to Google and Meta?
Yeah, it's relatively similar withslightly different naming conventions.
There are two. So wehave maximized delivery,
which is the same thing as maximizedconversions on other platforms.
And this just means you're maximizingthe number of whatever conversion you're
(10:29):
asking the platform to maximizewithin your designated budget cap.
And max conversions is the most widelyavailable bidding strategy on TikTok
campaigns. It's an option forevery single campaign type.
We also though have cost cap, which iseffectively the same thing as Target CPA,
so it's keeping your average cost perconversion around whatever bid you set.
(10:52):
So that cost cap biddingstrategy is only available with
app installation campaigns,conversions campaigns,
and lead generation campaigns.
Have you run any TikTok campaignsfor CI clients? And if so,
how have they performed?How have they been doing?
Yeah,
one of our larger theater clientshas spent a fair bit of time
advertising on TikTok this calendaryear with a lot of success,
(11:15):
which we've been really happy to see.
They have been advertisingproductions in their Broadway series,
and all of them havereturned pretty high ROI,
but with modest investment.
So there's probably room for thisparticular client to invest some more.
What has been interesting though aboutthis theater client is they're testing
(11:36):
out some broad targetingwithin their campaign.
So of course they've got audiencesegments with very specific criteria,
but they're also including a broad segmentthat is only defined by geolocation.
And what's been interesting isthat the cost per conversion for
that broadly defined audiencehas typically been the lowest.
(11:57):
Not necessarily the highestvolume of conversions,
but it's been highly efficient,
which does tell us that TikTok's algorithmis very good at delivering to the
people that it thinksare going to convert.
So when we do things like this andwe give it some more room to stretch,
we can then on the backend see withinthat who was actually responding that we
maybe weren't going to betargeting in the first place.
(12:20):
So the more you are sort of leaninginto it, the more you're learning,
essentially learning about your ownaudience through TikTok that you may not
even know about. And there's also aNutcracker campaign as well, right?
Yeah, one of our ballet clientsthis past holiday season,
so for their Nutcracker 2023campaign for their first foray into
TikTok... So this was a verytraffic-oriented campaign.
(12:43):
We were not asking it to drive purchases.
Spent about $1,400 andreturned a just under 200%
ROI.
I bring it up because it didwell for a first attempt,
but TikTok has put out some data on
its user base and where they're makingpurchases for the holiday season.
(13:06):
And because we have things like "TikTokmade me buy it," because we have things
like "TikTok shop" and TikTok beingused as a very relevant search
engine, people are going to TikTokfor holiday season purchases.
So 40% of TikTok users who are makingChristmas purchases bought at least
something they found on TikTok,
which is something to keep in mindas we round into the holiday season.
(13:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So TikTok just rolled out new advertisingpolicies that protect the privacy of
users under 18.
How are these new policies impactingour ability to target younger audiences?
Yeah, this is brand new news asof last month, as of July 2024.
Breaking news.
Breaking. But I should sayit's a breaking update.
(13:51):
Back in February,
TikTok started rolling out protectionsfor users under the age of 18,
and those included some restrictionson the campaign types that we could
use to target 13 to 17 year olds.
So basically no TikTok shop campaignsand no conversions campaigns where we're
actively selling things tominors. But other than that,
(14:14):
it was still mostly business as usual.
There were some minor restrictions onsome of the niche behavioral targeting and
niche interest groups that wewere allowed to layer in for
some of those youngeraudiences. But as of July 2024,
you cannot target users underthe age of 18 with any sort of
(14:35):
audience criteria. So ifyou've run campaigns on Meta,
you know what I'm talking about. You canstill reach people 13 to 17 years old,
but it's really broad.
You can include geotargeting and that'sbasically it. I think it's geotargeting
and maybe language. And onTikTok, it's the same thing.
So they're still able to be reached,
(14:57):
but we cannot be that specific.
The good news is that it's TikTokand their algorithm is top notch,
so it's not the end of the world and it'sstill really the place to be if you're
trying to get in front of those people.
But if you want to include 13 to17 year olds in your campaigns,
we would just suggest that you break outthe ad group with the younger people on
its own and then have a separate adgroup with 18 plus where you can still be
(15:20):
pretty specific aboutyour audience criteria.
Are there any new TikTok ad programscoming down the pike that we should look
out for?
Yes,
we're in the exploratory stage witha couple of our clients for a couple
of programs. One is calledthe TikTok Creative Exchange,
and one is called theTikTok Creative Challenge.
(15:43):
Both of these are different programs fromTikTok that effectively make it easier
for advertisers to work withcreators in getting UGC content,
user generated content,
without having to work outcontracts with those creators.
So TikTok is paying the creators,they are getting compensated.
All the advertiser has to dois commit to a media spend.
(16:04):
So if you're running a campaign andyou're interested in working with creators
and getting some really organic-feelingcontent from people that do this for a
living, it's an exciting program andI'm looking forward to hearing more.
So hopefully I can come back with updates.
Yes, you'll have to come back onthe podcast to update us. Alright,
one final hard-hitting question. What aresome of your favorite TikTok accounts?
(16:25):
I've been consuming a lotof Olympic TikTok lately,
and I feel like a lot of people have,
but I've been a big fan ofIlona Maher who plays on the
US women's rugby team. She'shysterical and she's very charismatic.
But also Henrik Christiansen and ifyou know, you know-but the Muffin Man,
the Olympic Village Muffin Man, isso funny. He's a swimmer from Norway.
(16:49):
So I'm excited to see what Paralympicathletes show up on my feed in the next
couple of weeks since we'recoming right up on that as well.
Have you seen, is it Sammy Sullivanwho's also on the US Women's Rugby team?
She just went full in on convertingall of her fame towards getting Legos.
That's so funny.
Well, this was superinsightful, super helpful.
(17:10):
Thank you so much forjoining us on the pod.
Thanks for having me!
So Rachel Karten is a social mediaconsultant based in California,
and she's worked with social media overthe last 10 years and led the social
media team at some of myfavorite food organizations,
(17:31):
Bon Appetit and Epicurious. And she nowwrites a newsletter called Link In Bio,
which everyone should go andsubscribe to if they haven't already.
It has over 60,000 subscribers.Rachel, welcome to the pod!
Thank you for havingme. Excited to be here.
Yeah, excited to chat with you.
So let's talk about what drew youinto a career in social media.
(17:52):
I mean, I feel like Igrew up with social media.
I wrote one of my college applicationessays about how I would write Facebook
captions for my friends' photo albums.
It's just always been in my blood.
I had a blog in college thatwas about food and fashion,
and I just have always been interestedin telling stories on the internet for as
(18:13):
long as I can remember. Andso when I graduated in 2013,
it felt like such a pivotal time wherebrands were just discovering social
media. Instagram had beenout for maybe a year or two,
and so the timing wasdefinitely a huge factor in it.
Yeah, for sure.
How has the social media landscape shiftedover the years since you started in
2013?
(18:33):
Yeah, I think that when Ifirst got into social media,
it was thought of as a distributionchannel for your brand.
It was just where you candraw new audiences in and bring them somewhere else or
to your website.
And I think now people thinkof social media as the brand,
and you should give the people the fullexperience on these platforms and don't
make them go to a link or make them gosomewhere else to experience your brand.
(18:56):
They should be able to feelit on these social channels.
So I think that's why social mediais so important for brands is
just it's a place wherepeople discover your brand,
where people get to know your brand,
where people build fandom around yourbrand, everything is happening there.
And so I think it's so important thatbrands invest in their social strategies
and social teams.
Yeah. So you said that a core part of anybrand's social strategy is determining
(19:21):
shareable universal truths, which I love.
I love this perspective because that'soften so much of where comedy comes from.
One of my favorite posts you didwas with West Elm and you said,
how many cups can you fit on anightstand? And that post was just,
it was genius because it was so true.
Everyone's nightstand is just filledwith a bunch of stuff that we just keep
forgetting to move.
(19:42):
Mine is just piles of unread books thatI'm ambitiously just hoping just go into
my brain.
You'll look so smart.
So smart, such a trick.
So can you share a bit more aboutthat perspective of universal truths?
Yeah, I mean, when you think aboutsocial media, it can be a funnel.
And so if you just talk aboutyour product all day long,
you're not really going to attractnew people to be interested.
(20:03):
And so I think a lot about what is thebigger universal truth that your brand
speaks to and how can you bring peoplein through that? I think about...
Yeti is a good example.I always think about,
it's like it's not that they makereally durable coolers and tumblers,
it's that they give you toolsto fuel your next adventure.
And so their social is talking about theadventures that you can go on thanks to
(20:27):
Yeti's products that are super durable,but they lead with that adventure.
And I think that all brandsshould be thinking about:
what does their product or experienceempower people to do that then they
can speak to? And then there'shumorous ways into that.
I think the West Elm examplewith the cups on the nightstand,
(20:47):
there's the clothes that pileup at the end-of-bed bench.
There's all these things that areuniversal, and from that universal truth,
there's a lot of really funways in that is relevant to
anyone who is in your industryor cares about your industry,
not just your product.
I think that kind of relates to artsand culture organizations as well.
(21:09):
Because we are so mission-driven,
I think sometimes we can getbogged down with trying to promote,
trying to sell tickets. How do youthink arts organizations-like museums,
ballets,
theaters-can better showcase the sort ofexperience they offer on social media?
Yeah, I think that there are a few waysin for arts and cultural organizations.
I think about, well, one is the moreobvious experience of going to it.
(21:33):
And so I think there's a lot ofuniversal truths of going to a museum.
If you go with somebody else and there'sone person who zooms ahead and you're
far behind.
There's tons of these funny moments ofwhen you go to a museum that you can
think of, and how can organizations playinto those types of universal truths?
And then I think there'sones that I've seen where...
I think LACMA might've been the oneto really start this a while ago with
(21:58):
their Snapchat.
And they would take universal truthsbut apply them to the artwork.
I think they were taking memesor just relatable type things,
but using the artwork to express them.
And I think that's an interesting way,
and I think the Whitneyhas done that as well,
is taking artwork and applying it tosomething that's happening in the cultural
(22:19):
zeitgeist is their art that remindsthem of Brat and Charlie XCX.
There's ways in through art and I thinkthat's another way to bring the art into
the current conversation.
A lot of the organizations that wework with have been around for tens,
sometimes hundreds of years.They are their brands.
I think often they can be scared tosort of dip their toe into some of these
(22:43):
more sort of risky content pieces.
Do you have any tips for how legacyinstitutions might work towards that?
Yeah, I think
bring the experience of going to theseorganizations to the internet and then
you can slowly build in like, "Hey,
when we tried this interview style that'snot our usual 'trying to sell tickets'
(23:06):
style, it did really well.
Let's try this trend next that's a littlebit more of a risk." And you kind of
ease in. For example, the Met,
they just interviewed what itis to be a guard at the Met.
That's really interesting. I'venever heard that perspective.
The video did really well and it'sjust a simple sort of tiny mic,
little interview with a guard at the Met.
(23:28):
Also the Huntington Gardensthat are here in Pasadena,
I think they have this really smellyflower that blooms and it's the
best time of year.
It's so fun to watch them live reportingthat this thing is blooming and how
smelly it is.
And they interview people about howsmelly it is and what it smells like.
And some of these organizations could benervous that that would make people not
(23:50):
want to come. No, I want tosmell this flower so badly now!
Is that the rotting meat flower? Is itthe biggest flour in the world? Yeah.
Someone on the SEO team, Selia,
she recently got a subscription toHuntington Gardens and she was saying she
went to go and see that because they'vegot live reportings that it blooms once
every 12 years or something like that.
(24:11):
Something wild. And it's the best.
And I think that once you actually goand experience the place in person,
you're like, oh, I recognizethat from their videos.
Or that's the person thatI have loved following,
or that's the guard thatwas profiled by the Met.
And so I think by filming some of yourcontent instead of building out some set
or feeling like it needsto feel super polished,
(24:34):
film it where people willactually be having their IRL
experience.
Yeah, for sure. And also sticking withit as well. One of the things [or]
advice from you recently I read was"stick with the bit." I'm really
getting into clown in LA. I don'tknow if anyone else knows this,
but LA has a huge clowning scene.
(24:56):
So I've been watching a bunch of clowningshows recently and they do a thing
where they'll keep doingthe joke until it's funny.
And I love that idea ofsticking with the bit.
Do you see a lot of brands start to takerisks and then stop when their content
doesn't immediately resonate?
Yeah, I think that's a big issueand I get why that happens.
It doesn't feel good to posta flop. I've been there.
(25:19):
It's not fun and especially if it'ssomething that you've worked hard to get
buy-in for.
But if you believe in anidea for a social series
or a new content franchisefor your organization,
stick with it for a little and you neverknow when it might get picked up and
find the right audience.
And do things like tweaking the firstfive seconds or how can you tweak it to
(25:40):
then maybe help it find its audience? Ithink about when I was at Bon Appetit,
the show It's Alivewas not a hit at first,
but then they just kept posting andfiguring it out and then it found its
audience. And so I think with socialmedia there's a feeling like, okay,
scrap it.We tried it once and it didn't work.
And I would love to see, treatit more like YouTube. Tweak it,
(26:03):
try it, keep at it. I don'tknow how Hot Ones did at first,
but that's a huge show now.
And so I think if you believe in the idea,
I encourage you to stick with it.
If you have a manager who goes into crisismanagement because a post doesn't do
well, that's a red flag on themanager. Posts are going to flop.
If you're taking risks onsocial, which you should be,
(26:25):
there's going to bethings that don't perform.
Obviously it's different if the audiencehas a really negative sentiment towards
it, but if a post just simplydoesn't do well, great.
No one saw it. You're good.
Yeah. Do you have any advice forpeople who might be dealing with that?
With pressure from managers?
(26:45):
I think it's easy to react reallyquickly to numbers and just see
red, bad, green, good. Andthere's so much more to that.
And so one of the big things thatI've always done is with reporting,
less graphs and more editorializing.
Narratives.
I see this didn't do well,
but we really took a risk here and I'mreally proud of the team for putting it
(27:06):
together. You can see howamazing the editing was.
We're going to try editing the firstfive seconds and see if that helps it and
put it up again. Editorialize morethan just share numbers, I would say.
Awesome. So let's talkabout assessing trends.
Earlier this year you released a listof brand social trends that you observed
in 2024. Can you dive into someof your favorites from that list?
(27:28):
One of the big things in thisrecent list was the word ownable.
We're living in a very trend-basedsocial world right now.
TikTok has really helped with that.There's songs that if you've used them,
your post will do better. There's soundsand voiceover, all this kind of stuff.
And so I think always thinking aboutwhat's the ownable way into a trend that
(27:49):
could really set your organization apart.
Have you seen the trends whereit's like copy pasta horny texts?
There's that style, and I'veseen, I think MoMA PS1 did it.
I forgot what they were promotingwith it, but they used that form.
I thought that was really interesting andfunny for an arts organization to take
that most bottom-of-the-barreltype of text and turn it into-.
(28:11):
Lowbrow.
Lowbrow. So I thoughtthat was really smart.
And just what are the twists that youcan take on a format or a trend or if
you're an arts organization, is therea trend that people would say, oh,
they would never participate in that?To me, MoMA PS1, that's a good example.
And then you manipulate it or twistit in some way that feels really
(28:32):
ownable.
And so I think another exampleis if you look at NPR's
Planet Money on TikTok,
they have a really specific video editingstyle that's just so them that as soon
as you see the video, it's them. Andif any brand tries to do that style,
they're copying them.
That's an ownable thing that yourbrand can really say is theirs.
(28:53):
And so I think with trends it's like,what's our ownable sort of way into them?
What trends are you seeing on thehorizon for the second half of 2024?
I would say, you know... I wouldnever have ever said this before,
but I think that LinkedIn isfeeling really good right now.
I am very interested in LinkedIn.
I've been seeing numbers where videosare weirdly performing really well there
(29:15):
and I could see arts and cultureorganizations having a big audience there.
If you think, I mean, I also justthink, thinking about LinkedIn,
it's-the same people who are on LinkedInare the same people who scroll TikTok.
They just have a little bit of differentuser behavior on that platform.
And so are there ways to, I don'tknow, lighten LinkedIn up a little bit?
Make it not feel so stiff and where youjust give company updates? But I dunno,
(29:37):
I've seen content performing really wellthere and I'm sort of curious to see
how brands maybe break therules of what a traditional
LinkedIn post should be.For example,
the Met interviewing a guard who workedthere. That could go on LinkedIn.
What makes that not worthputting on LinkedIn?
It's about an employee whoworks at this organization,
and so maybe you wouldn't typically thinkof that as a brand post that could go
(30:00):
on LinkedIn. It's a little bittoo TikTok-y, short form video,
but we're seeing that short form videois actually performing quite well there.
And people scroll LinkedIn lookingto be educated, to be entertained,
and a lot of great TikTokand Reels already do that.
So what's stopping you fromtesting posting that there?
(30:22):
Interesting. What brands do you followthat you think are doing a good job?
I love following the Getty Museum onInstagram. They do an amazing job.
The Whitney on Threads isreally good. I follow the Met.
Milwaukee Public Library. Ifollow American Ballet Theater.
And of course the Huntington Gardens.
(30:42):
Talk about the Milwaukee Public Library.What do they do that's different?
They again lean into theuniversal truths of the experience
of a library and they havetheir librarians actually
doing skits. It makes me wantto go visit that library.
And I think another piece of it is justthe characters that can be in some of
(31:04):
these brands' accounts.
I think I want to go meet the librarianwho I love following on that account,
or I want to go see the ratfrom the American Ballet
Theater. I've seen them in TikToks.
I want to see what theydo for real on stage.
And so it kind of makes you invested inthese characters on social that you then
(31:25):
want to experience and see in real life.
And I've never met a librarian whodoesn't love being a librarian and talking
about being a librarian as well.
Totally.
Same with,
I have a background in zoology beforeI moved into marketing and every
scientist I ever met couldtalk for hours about their
(31:46):
nichest subject. I think there was,
I want to say it was a history museum.
They had a guy who did snailjokes and snail facts every
single week for a while in the pandemic.
And just videos where somebody's nerdingout on something very specific is
really fascinating and fun to watch.
(32:06):
Yeah. It also reminds me a bitabout the peek behind the curtains.
We have this phrase of,
"Your ordinary is your audience'sextraordinary." There's
examples of Troilus and Cressida.
In the play they have a huge bloody scene.
I think that's the one where someone'seye is removed and they showed exactly
how that eye was removed and how theycleaned it every night and reset it the
(32:28):
next day.
Oh, that's amazing.
I love stuff like that.
That's amazing. I love that.
Maybe it was King Lear, I can't remember.
All the Shakespeare nerdswho are listening to this are screaming at the podcast
right now, and I can hear them.
What do you think people misunderstandmost about social media management for
brands?
A lot of people think that it's really fun
(32:49):
and we're just on our phone all the time,
and "how lucky you getto scroll..." I mean,
I remember a colleague saying that tome like, oh, you just scroll all day.
And while some of that'strue-I do find it fun,
I obviously work in it for areason-it's a lot of hard work.
It's really hard to reachaudiences and it's a really,
really valuable function for a business.
(33:09):
And while the ROI isn'tas numbers-driven as paid
social or email marketing,
it's so so important and sovaluable. And so I dunno,
I just think that there's a lot of hardwork and strategy that goes into it,
and it's not just assimple as pressing post.
Yeah.
How important is it for social mediamanagers to be passionate about the brand
(33:31):
they represent?
I think that having aninterest in the industry
or the organization thatyou are working for is
really, really important.
I say that I am good atsocial because I work with
brands where I love and aminterested in what they're all
(33:53):
about. I loved food beforeI loved social media,
and I found social media asa way to extend that love.
And so I think that it doesn't haveto be something you're an expert at,
but it has to be somethingthat you're so curious about.
I think curiosity is the bestquality in a social manager.
And so you're always looking for newways in, new ways to tell a story.
(34:17):
And I think that being curious aboutthe industry you're working in is
everything.
Yeah.
I think that resonates with a lot ofour listeners because we work in arts
and culture for a reason.A lot of people come from,
especially in performing arts,
people come from performing backgroundsand work in this because they love this
(34:38):
industry.
I think the more we candemonstrate that in organic
social, the better timeeveryone's going to have.
Yeah,
that makes me think about a TikTok thatI saw from American Ballet Theater,
which was just a video ofballet dancers and you could
just hear the tapping ofthe shoes on the stage,
(34:58):
and it was just this moment thatonly a social manager who knows the
arts and knows ballet would be ableto see and see that's a good piece of
content. If I was to go film, Iwould be like, I don't hear that.
That's not that interesting tome. The social manager heard that,
thought that that wasmaybe ASMR-y in a way,
and people might want to hear this.And it's a huge video for them.
(35:21):
So I think that just goes to show thathaving the person who's behind the
camera, who's doing the social strategy,
being really interested and able to seethings that maybe somebody else couldn't
is really important.
What is important for an organizationto consider when hiring for their
marketing team?
Especially in roles that heavilyfocus on social media management?
(35:42):
I always focus on instincts, ideas.
I'm less focused on thetechnical side of things.
You can teach how to edit a video.You can teach how to write a caption.
You can teach how to use thescheduling tool. It's like,
did they come to the interviewwith excitement and ideas
and new ways in and accountsthat they love to follow?
(36:07):
That to me is number one.
Yeah. And finally,
if you could broadcast onemessage to executive directors,
leadership teams, staff, and boardsof thousands of arts organizations,
what would that message be?
I think it's to loosen upa little bit on social.
I think that there's, again, afeeling like if we show too much,
(36:31):
then people won't be incentivized to come.
Or if we loosen up too much,the prestige will be gone.
And I would say that to me,
and to I'm sure a lotof potential customers
or viewers younger than me,
(36:51):
that is going to be the thingthat makes them want to come.
Organic social media can be thatentry point for a lot of people
and
approaching those platforms in a way thatfeels like how people want to consume
there, I think is really important.
Awesome. Well, thank you somuch for joining us, Rachel.
(37:13):
Where can people sign up for yournewsletter or hear more about your work?
You can sign up for Link ln Bio at
www.milkkarten.net,
and you can follow meon social @milkkarten.
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
(37:41):
Before we say goodbye, let's wrapthings up with CI-lebrity Sightings.
Here's some of our favorite news storiesabout CI clients in 60 seconds or less.
First,
Taproot News cited Edmonton SymphonyOrchestra's efforts to engage the under-17
set in the article,
"How arts organizations are working toattract younger audiences." Nice work,
ESO! Next, the team at Observercaught up with Nicholas Baume,
(38:04):
Public Art Fund's executiveand artistic director,
to discuss the state of public art inNew York. Our favorite quote? "Powerful,
relevant public art isessential in fostering an authentic sense of community."
Well said.
Chicago media company New City interviewedGoodman Theater's lighting supervisor
Gina Patterson for their nerd-tasticarticle, "Let there be luminance:
(38:28):
How lighting designers showus the show." And finally,
the Apollo was announced as an honoreefor this year's Kennedy Center honors for
its vital role in cultivating new artistsand serving as a catalyst for social
and civic advocacy.
Please join us in congratulating theseorganizations and check out the articles
linked in our show notes. Got astory that deserves a shout out?
(38:49):
Tag us on social and let us know.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
(39:11):
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
(39:35):
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and TikTok for regular contentto help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacityinteractive.com so you never
miss an update. And ifyou haven't already,
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
If you like nerding out about the artswith CI to Eye, you will love Boot Camp.
It's one of the only conferences 100%tailored to making you a stronger arts
marketer, leader, and championfor our industry. In fact,
we're so sure you'll love it that we'reoffering listeners $50 off in-person
registration.
Just use code POD50 by August31st to claim your discount.
(00:24):
While this offer cannot becombined with other offers,
you can get even more savings byinviting two of your best arts marketing
friends and taking advantageof additional group discounts.
Your Boot Camp adventure awaits atcapacityinteractivebootcamp.com.
(00:49):
Hello everyone, Dan here.
One of my favorite parts about Augustis that back-to-school feeling.
The air is crisp, the pencils are sharp,
and the notebooks are blankand full of possibilities.
There's something satisfyingabout a clean slate, right?
It's the perfect time to hit the resetbutton and gear up to conquer the year
ahead. And in today's constantlyevolving, social media-driven world,
(01:10):
refreshing your social strategy isjust as good as buying a fresh pack of
animal-shaped erasers.
That's because social is where yourorganization makes its first impression on
potential audiences and fostersrelationships with existing fans.
An A+ strategy is key to notjust healthy ticket sales,
but lasting brand loyalty.In today's episode,
(01:30):
we'll get your social grades up so youcan start the 2024-25 season at the top
of the class. First,
I'll sit down with CI Consultant NatalieMartinez to talk about advertising on
TikTok (01:40):
when it makes sense, how to get started,
and the kind of resultsyou can expect to see.
Then I'll catch up with Rachel Karten,
a social media consultant and authorof the popular newsletter Link In Bio.
We'll discuss ways to elevate yourorganic strategy and get more out of your
content. And for extra credit,
stick around until the end of the episodefor a lightning round of our favorite
(02:00):
arts stories in the news.Let's dive in, shall we?
So for today's Digital Download,I'm joined by Natalie Martinez,
a digital marketing consultant andTikTok platform specialist with CI.
(02:21):
Thanks so much for joining us, Nat!
Oh my gosh. Thanks so much for having me.
So a growing number of artsorganizations are joining TikTok,
but not many have started runningpaid campaigns on the platform.
Why should we consider addingTikTok to our paid strategies?
So there's a number of reasons,
and the first of course is that you'regetting in front of newer and younger
(02:45):
audiences. I know everyone thinksthat's where the kids are at.
And to an extent that is true.From a paid campaign perspective,
when we kind of give the platform freereign to serve to all of the age groups,
we do see a number of those impressionsskewing to some of the younger age
groups, whereas on Meta for example,
we tend to see thoseimpressions skew to 35 and up.
(03:09):
So if you have a show with alot of younger audience appeal,
if you have programs for youngticket buyers like 30 under 30,
or if you have rush discounts,
this is a good place to be if you havediscounted ticket offerings just because
along with younger audiencesdoes come less buying power.
(03:30):
Yeah,
I think one of the things that TikTokreally lends itself to is building brand
awareness.
And so by advertising on a platformthat does skew a little bit younger,
you are sort of building that audiencethat's going to come later in life,
hopefully.
Absolutely.
And because the ads are placedin the for you page where just,
if you're not familiar withhow the TikTok app is set up,
(03:52):
the for you page is a discover feed.
It is for people you don'talready follow most of the time.
So people are kind of expecting newthings to come across their for you
pages as opposed to their friends feed,
and that really helps in terms of themindset when you're then seeing an ad for
an organization you maybehave never heard of before.
(04:13):
And from a paid perspective,
when we give the algorithm freereign to spend accordingly across ad
groups,
despite the fact that we can now alsotarget CRM lists and retargeting pools,
a lot of the conversion data,
a lot of the impression share does tendto come from some of those acquisition
groups. So it's reallygreat for brand awareness.
(04:36):
And it can also fill the gaps of yourdigital strategy where targeting isn't
available on other platforms. Right?
That's one of the big trendswe were chatting about before.
Yeah, particularly for behavioraltargeting. If you recall,
a couple of years ago,
Meta really made some changes totheir interest targeting segments and
behavioral targeting to removeanything that may be seen as sensitive
(04:57):
information that includes anyoneinterested in health causes.
And it also included the deprecationof any sort of LGBTQ-friendly
interests on Meta. But on TikTok, wehave all of those available to us.
So if you have Pride programming,if you have queer icons performing,
(05:18):
and you want to be able to reachpeople with some of those interests,
TikTok is a great place to do that.
Great place to reach people interestedin the holidays. It's really nice.
We have a lot more flexibilityfor behavioral targeting here.
It's also worth mentioning that TikTokcampaigns aren't just for these big
organizations with money tothrow at just another channel.
(05:39):
It's also an efficient way to buildan audience if you are a smaller
organization, as long as itfits into your broader strategy.
Yeah, it's important to thinkof it as a strategic addition.
It's not going to work super,super well with everything.
But in those situations where you're kindof trying to fill a targeting hole on
(05:59):
Meta or where you do have theadditional budget to be able to sort of
develop new younger audiences,it's a great place to be.
But I don't think you needto be advertising on TikTok just for this sake of
being on TikTok.
I feel like when it really lendsitself to being a good opportunity,
that's when, especially for smallerorganizations with limited budget,
(06:21):
that's when you shouldreally take the leap.
I think over the last few years,
vertical video has become more prevalentand people are just naturally creating
more vertical videopieces of media right now.
So that kind of gives you an in, right?
Yeah. And so in years pasts,
I feel when there wasn't allof that vertical content,
it felt like such a burden to then haveto add to it just for something like
(06:44):
TikTok.
But now it's really great because youcan repurpose some of those assets and if
you're already creating vertical orientedcontent and you're not already on
TikTok,
it's good to keep in mind that you dowant to diversify the channels that you're
advertising on. You don't want to kindof get stuck in a rut in one or two,
and if you already have the assets,it's a really great place to use them.
(07:07):
And what kind of ad formats are welooking at here and what should we be
thinking about when creating TikTok ads?
We have a couple options.Obviously there's video,
which we're used to onTikTok, and that's for ads.
It's anywhere between five and60 seconds, ideally vertical,
although you can also run horizontaland square videos on TikTok.
(07:30):
And of course your caption isoverlaid over that video in white.
So we always want to be mindfulof what is behind that text,
making sure that the whitecaption is still legible,
but excitingly, we canalso run carousel ads now.
And unlike I think Meta wherewe have a maximum of 10 images
(07:51):
on TikTok, we can runanywhere between one and 35.
So now we have a bit more variety withthe types of assets we can run with
TikTok ads.
And what kind of ad placementsare available? Where are people seeing these ads?
The most applicable for arts organizationsis going to be your in-feed ads,
which if you have TikTok, these adsappear throughout the for you page,
(08:14):
and they're sprinkled in betweenusers' algorithmically delivered
organic content. These have a CTA,
so it's great for driving conversions,
and they appear verynative looking to the app,
so they do resemble the other ads thatyou're seeing across the platform.
And it's nice because TikTok did justrelease a case study comparing some of the
(08:38):
TikTok in-feed placements withthose of CTV and streaming.
And there's more of an ad recall,
there's a 23% recall lift with TikTokads compared to some of those CTV and
traditional TV placements.
There was an article a while ago thatwe talked about on the podcast about
TikTok being used as a searchengine, particularly among Gen Z.
And as a search guy, I do a lot of SEO.
(09:02):
I find this super interesting becauseit's such a useful way to do research.
Thinking about if you'replanning a trip, for example,
putting in "things to doin Hawaii." The content you
get is so incredibly usefulcompared to some of the so SEO
focused articles you get on Google. Also,
(09:22):
we can lean into thatwith ads as well, right?
Yeah, and this is exciting. This isa relatively new feature from TikTok,
but if you're running in-feedads, within that setting,
you can opt into also appearing onthe TikTok search engine results page,
which is great becausewhen you say search ad,
your brain goes to a Googlesearch. It's very text-based,
and it's not always as relevant as youwant it to be despite what Google claims.
(09:45):
And TikTok's search results arevery good at being relevant to each
individual user. So beingable to show your visual ads,
your video ads,
in the search resultsfeed is incredible. So,
very excited for people to be able totake advantage of that these days as well.
So when we're setting up these campaigns,
(10:07):
what kind of biddingstrategies are available? Is it similar to Google and Meta?
Yeah, it's relatively similar withslightly different naming conventions.
There are two. So wehave maximized delivery,
which is the same thing as maximizedconversions on other platforms.
And this just means you're maximizingthe number of whatever conversion you're
(10:29):
asking the platform to maximizewithin your designated budget cap.
And max conversions is the most widelyavailable bidding strategy on TikTok
campaigns. It's an option forevery single campaign type.
We also though have cost cap, which iseffectively the same thing as Target CPA,
so it's keeping your average cost perconversion around whatever bid you set.
(10:52):
So that cost cap biddingstrategy is only available with
app installation campaigns,conversions campaigns,
and lead generation campaigns.
Have you run any TikTok campaignsfor CI clients? And if so,
how have they performed?How have they been doing?
Yeah,
one of our larger theater clientshas spent a fair bit of time
advertising on TikTok this calendaryear with a lot of success,
(11:15):
which we've been really happy to see.
They have been advertisingproductions in their Broadway series,
and all of them havereturned pretty high ROI,
but with modest investment.
So there's probably room for thisparticular client to invest some more.
What has been interesting though aboutthis theater client is they're testing
(11:36):
out some broad targetingwithin their campaign.
So of course they've got audiencesegments with very specific criteria,
but they're also including a broad segmentthat is only defined by geolocation.
And what's been interesting isthat the cost per conversion for
that broadly defined audiencehas typically been the lowest.
(11:57):
Not necessarily the highestvolume of conversions,
but it's been highly efficient,
which does tell us that TikTok's algorithmis very good at delivering to the
people that it thinksare going to convert.
So when we do things like this andwe give it some more room to stretch,
we can then on the backend see withinthat who was actually responding that we
maybe weren't going to betargeting in the first place.
(12:20):
So the more you are sort of leaninginto it, the more you're learning,
essentially learning about your ownaudience through TikTok that you may not
even know about. And there's also aNutcracker campaign as well, right?
Yeah, one of our ballet clientsthis past holiday season,
so for their Nutcracker 2023campaign for their first foray into
TikTok... So this was a verytraffic-oriented campaign.
(12:43):
We were not asking it to drive purchases.
Spent about $1,400 andreturned a just under 200%
ROI.
I bring it up because it didwell for a first attempt,
but TikTok has put out some data on
its user base and where they're makingpurchases for the holiday season.
(13:06):
And because we have things like "TikTokmade me buy it," because we have things
like "TikTok shop" and TikTok beingused as a very relevant search
engine, people are going to TikTokfor holiday season purchases.
So 40% of TikTok users who are makingChristmas purchases bought at least
something they found on TikTok,
which is something to keep in mindas we round into the holiday season.
(13:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
So TikTok just rolled out new advertisingpolicies that protect the privacy of
users under 18.
How are these new policies impactingour ability to target younger audiences?
Yeah, this is brand new news asof last month, as of July 2024.
Breaking news.
Breaking. But I should sayit's a breaking update.
(13:51):
Back in February,
TikTok started rolling out protectionsfor users under the age of 18,
and those included some restrictionson the campaign types that we could
use to target 13 to 17 year olds.
So basically no TikTok shop campaignsand no conversions campaigns where we're
actively selling things tominors. But other than that,
(14:14):
it was still mostly business as usual.
There were some minor restrictions onsome of the niche behavioral targeting and
niche interest groups that wewere allowed to layer in for
some of those youngeraudiences. But as of July 2024,
you cannot target users underthe age of 18 with any sort of
(14:35):
audience criteria. So ifyou've run campaigns on Meta,
you know what I'm talking about. You canstill reach people 13 to 17 years old,
but it's really broad.
You can include geotargeting and that'sbasically it. I think it's geotargeting
and maybe language. And onTikTok, it's the same thing.
So they're still able to be reached,
(14:57):
but we cannot be that specific.
The good news is that it's TikTokand their algorithm is top notch,
so it's not the end of the world and it'sstill really the place to be if you're
trying to get in front of those people.
But if you want to include 13 to17 year olds in your campaigns,
we would just suggest that you break outthe ad group with the younger people on
its own and then have a separate adgroup with 18 plus where you can still be
(15:20):
pretty specific aboutyour audience criteria.
Are there any new TikTok ad programscoming down the pike that we should look
out for?
Yes,
we're in the exploratory stage witha couple of our clients for a couple
of programs. One is calledthe TikTok Creative Exchange,
and one is called theTikTok Creative Challenge.
(15:43):
Both of these are different programs fromTikTok that effectively make it easier
for advertisers to work withcreators in getting UGC content,
user generated content,
without having to work outcontracts with those creators.
So TikTok is paying the creators,they are getting compensated.
All the advertiser has to dois commit to a media spend.
(16:04):
So if you're running a campaign andyou're interested in working with creators
and getting some really organic-feelingcontent from people that do this for a
living, it's an exciting program andI'm looking forward to hearing more.
So hopefully I can come back with updates.
Yes, you'll have to come back onthe podcast to update us. Alright,
one final hard-hitting question. What aresome of your favorite TikTok accounts?
(16:25):
I've been consuming a lotof Olympic TikTok lately,
and I feel like a lot of people have,
but I've been a big fan ofIlona Maher who plays on the
US women's rugby team. She'shysterical and she's very charismatic.
But also Henrik Christiansen and ifyou know, you know-but the Muffin Man,
the Olympic Village Muffin Man, isso funny. He's a swimmer from Norway.
(16:49):
So I'm excited to see what Paralympicathletes show up on my feed in the next
couple of weeks since we'recoming right up on that as well.
Have you seen, is it Sammy Sullivanwho's also on the US Women's Rugby team?
She just went full in on convertingall of her fame towards getting Legos.
That's so funny.
Well, this was superinsightful, super helpful.
(17:10):
Thank you so much forjoining us on the pod.
Thanks for having me!
So Rachel Karten is a social mediaconsultant based in California,
and she's worked with social media overthe last 10 years and led the social
media team at some of myfavorite food organizations,
(17:31):
Bon Appetit and Epicurious. And she nowwrites a newsletter called Link In Bio,
which everyone should go andsubscribe to if they haven't already.
It has over 60,000 subscribers.Rachel, welcome to the pod!
Thank you for havingme. Excited to be here.
Yeah, excited to chat with you.
So let's talk about what drew youinto a career in social media.
(17:52):
I mean, I feel like Igrew up with social media.
I wrote one of my college applicationessays about how I would write Facebook
captions for my friends' photo albums.
It's just always been in my blood.
I had a blog in college thatwas about food and fashion,
and I just have always been interestedin telling stories on the internet for as
(18:13):
long as I can remember. Andso when I graduated in 2013,
it felt like such a pivotal time wherebrands were just discovering social
media. Instagram had beenout for maybe a year or two,
and so the timing wasdefinitely a huge factor in it.
Yeah, for sure.
How has the social media landscape shiftedover the years since you started in
2013?
(18:33):
Yeah, I think that when Ifirst got into social media,
it was thought of as a distributionchannel for your brand.
It was just where you candraw new audiences in and bring them somewhere else or
to your website.
And I think now people thinkof social media as the brand,
and you should give the people the fullexperience on these platforms and don't
make them go to a link or make them gosomewhere else to experience your brand.
(18:56):
They should be able to feelit on these social channels.
So I think that's why social mediais so important for brands is
just it's a place wherepeople discover your brand,
where people get to know your brand,
where people build fandom around yourbrand, everything is happening there.
And so I think it's so important thatbrands invest in their social strategies
and social teams.
Yeah. So you said that a core part of anybrand's social strategy is determining
(19:21):
shareable universal truths, which I love.
I love this perspective because that'soften so much of where comedy comes from.
One of my favorite posts you didwas with West Elm and you said,
how many cups can you fit on anightstand? And that post was just,
it was genius because it was so true.
Everyone's nightstand is just filledwith a bunch of stuff that we just keep
forgetting to move.
(19:42):
Mine is just piles of unread books thatI'm ambitiously just hoping just go into
my brain.
You'll look so smart.
So smart, such a trick.
So can you share a bit more aboutthat perspective of universal truths?
Yeah, I mean, when you think aboutsocial media, it can be a funnel.
And so if you just talk aboutyour product all day long,
you're not really going to attractnew people to be interested.
(20:03):
And so I think a lot about what is thebigger universal truth that your brand
speaks to and how can you bring peoplein through that? I think about...
Yeti is a good example.I always think about,
it's like it's not that they makereally durable coolers and tumblers,
it's that they give you toolsto fuel your next adventure.
And so their social is talking about theadventures that you can go on thanks to
(20:27):
Yeti's products that are super durable,but they lead with that adventure.
And I think that all brandsshould be thinking about:
what does their product or experienceempower people to do that then they
can speak to? And then there'shumorous ways into that.
I think the West Elm examplewith the cups on the nightstand,
(20:47):
there's the clothes that pileup at the end-of-bed bench.
There's all these things that areuniversal, and from that universal truth,
there's a lot of really funways in that is relevant to
anyone who is in your industryor cares about your industry,
not just your product.
I think that kind of relates to artsand culture organizations as well.
(21:09):
Because we are so mission-driven,
I think sometimes we can getbogged down with trying to promote,
trying to sell tickets. How do youthink arts organizations-like museums,
ballets,
theaters-can better showcase the sort ofexperience they offer on social media?
Yeah, I think that there are a few waysin for arts and cultural organizations.
I think about, well, one is the moreobvious experience of going to it.
(21:33):
And so I think there's a lot ofuniversal truths of going to a museum.
If you go with somebody else and there'sone person who zooms ahead and you're
far behind.
There's tons of these funny moments ofwhen you go to a museum that you can
think of, and how can organizations playinto those types of universal truths?
And then I think there'sones that I've seen where...
I think LACMA might've been the oneto really start this a while ago with
(21:58):
their Snapchat.
And they would take universal truthsbut apply them to the artwork.
I think they were taking memesor just relatable type things,
but using the artwork to express them.
And I think that's an interesting way,
and I think the Whitneyhas done that as well,
is taking artwork and applying it tosomething that's happening in the cultural
(22:19):
zeitgeist is their art that remindsthem of Brat and Charlie XCX.
There's ways in through art and I thinkthat's another way to bring the art into
the current conversation.
A lot of the organizations that wework with have been around for tens,
sometimes hundreds of years.They are their brands.
I think often they can be scared tosort of dip their toe into some of these
(22:43):
more sort of risky content pieces.
Do you have any tips for how legacyinstitutions might work towards that?
Yeah, I think
bring the experience of going to theseorganizations to the internet and then
you can slowly build in like, "Hey,
when we tried this interview style that'snot our usual 'trying to sell tickets'
(23:06):
style, it did really well.
Let's try this trend next that's a littlebit more of a risk." And you kind of
ease in. For example, the Met,
they just interviewed what itis to be a guard at the Met.
That's really interesting. I'venever heard that perspective.
The video did really well and it'sjust a simple sort of tiny mic,
little interview with a guard at the Met.
(23:28):
Also the Huntington Gardensthat are here in Pasadena,
I think they have this really smellyflower that blooms and it's the
best time of year.
It's so fun to watch them live reportingthat this thing is blooming and how
smelly it is.
And they interview people about howsmelly it is and what it smells like.
And some of these organizations could benervous that that would make people not
(23:50):
want to come. No, I want tosmell this flower so badly now!
Is that the rotting meat flower? Is itthe biggest flour in the world? Yeah.
Someone on the SEO team, Selia,
she recently got a subscription toHuntington Gardens and she was saying she
went to go and see that because they'vegot live reportings that it blooms once
every 12 years or something like that.
(24:11):
Something wild. And it's the best.
And I think that once you actually goand experience the place in person,
you're like, oh, I recognizethat from their videos.
Or that's the person thatI have loved following,
or that's the guard thatwas profiled by the Met.
And so I think by filming some of yourcontent instead of building out some set
or feeling like it needsto feel super polished,
(24:34):
film it where people willactually be having their IRL
experience.
Yeah, for sure. And also sticking withit as well. One of the things [or]
advice from you recently I read was"stick with the bit." I'm really
getting into clown in LA. I don'tknow if anyone else knows this,
but LA has a huge clowning scene.
(24:56):
So I've been watching a bunch of clowningshows recently and they do a thing
where they'll keep doingthe joke until it's funny.
And I love that idea ofsticking with the bit.
Do you see a lot of brands start to takerisks and then stop when their content
doesn't immediately resonate?
Yeah, I think that's a big issueand I get why that happens.
It doesn't feel good to posta flop. I've been there.
(25:19):
It's not fun and especially if it'ssomething that you've worked hard to get
buy-in for.
But if you believe in anidea for a social series
or a new content franchisefor your organization,
stick with it for a little and you neverknow when it might get picked up and
find the right audience.
And do things like tweaking the firstfive seconds or how can you tweak it to
(25:40):
then maybe help it find its audience? Ithink about when I was at Bon Appetit,
the show It's Alivewas not a hit at first,
but then they just kept posting andfiguring it out and then it found its
audience. And so I think with socialmedia there's a feeling like, okay,
scrap it.We tried it once and it didn't work.
And I would love to see, treatit more like YouTube. Tweak it,
(26:03):
try it, keep at it. I don'tknow how Hot Ones did at first,
but that's a huge show now.
And so I think if you believe in the idea,
I encourage you to stick with it.
If you have a manager who goes into crisismanagement because a post doesn't do
well, that's a red flag on themanager. Posts are going to flop.
If you're taking risks onsocial, which you should be,
(26:25):
there's going to bethings that don't perform.
Obviously it's different if the audiencehas a really negative sentiment towards
it, but if a post just simplydoesn't do well, great.
No one saw it. You're good.
Yeah. Do you have any advice forpeople who might be dealing with that?
With pressure from managers?
(26:45):
I think it's easy to react reallyquickly to numbers and just see
red, bad, green, good. Andthere's so much more to that.
And so one of the big things thatI've always done is with reporting,
less graphs and more editorializing.
Narratives.
I see this didn't do well,
but we really took a risk here and I'mreally proud of the team for putting it
(27:06):
together. You can see howamazing the editing was.
We're going to try editing the firstfive seconds and see if that helps it and
put it up again. Editorialize morethan just share numbers, I would say.
Awesome. So let's talkabout assessing trends.
Earlier this year you released a listof brand social trends that you observed
in 2024. Can you dive into someof your favorites from that list?
(27:28):
One of the big things in thisrecent list was the word ownable.
We're living in a very trend-basedsocial world right now.
TikTok has really helped with that.There's songs that if you've used them,
your post will do better. There's soundsand voiceover, all this kind of stuff.
And so I think always thinking aboutwhat's the ownable way into a trend that
(27:49):
could really set your organization apart.
Have you seen the trends whereit's like copy pasta horny texts?
There's that style, and I'veseen, I think MoMA PS1 did it.
I forgot what they were promotingwith it, but they used that form.
I thought that was really interesting andfunny for an arts organization to take
that most bottom-of-the-barreltype of text and turn it into-.
(28:11):
Lowbrow.
Lowbrow. So I thoughtthat was really smart.
And just what are the twists that youcan take on a format or a trend or if
you're an arts organization, is therea trend that people would say, oh,
they would never participate in that?To me, MoMA PS1, that's a good example.
And then you manipulate it or twistit in some way that feels really
(28:32):
ownable.
And so I think another exampleis if you look at NPR's
Planet Money on TikTok,
they have a really specific video editingstyle that's just so them that as soon
as you see the video, it's them. Andif any brand tries to do that style,
they're copying them.
That's an ownable thing that yourbrand can really say is theirs.
(28:53):
And so I think with trends it's like,what's our ownable sort of way into them?
What trends are you seeing on thehorizon for the second half of 2024?
I would say, you know... I wouldnever have ever said this before,
but I think that LinkedIn isfeeling really good right now.
I am very interested in LinkedIn.
I've been seeing numbers where videosare weirdly performing really well there
(29:15):
and I could see arts and cultureorganizations having a big audience there.
If you think, I mean, I also justthink, thinking about LinkedIn,
it's-the same people who are on LinkedInare the same people who scroll TikTok.
They just have a little bit of differentuser behavior on that platform.
And so are there ways to, I don'tknow, lighten LinkedIn up a little bit?
Make it not feel so stiff and where youjust give company updates? But I dunno,
(29:37):
I've seen content performing really wellthere and I'm sort of curious to see
how brands maybe break therules of what a traditional
LinkedIn post should be.For example,
the Met interviewing a guard who workedthere. That could go on LinkedIn.
What makes that not worthputting on LinkedIn?
It's about an employee whoworks at this organization,
and so maybe you wouldn't typically thinkof that as a brand post that could go
(30:00):
on LinkedIn. It's a little bittoo TikTok-y, short form video,
but we're seeing that short form videois actually performing quite well there.
And people scroll LinkedIn lookingto be educated, to be entertained,
and a lot of great TikTokand Reels already do that.
So what's stopping you fromtesting posting that there?
(30:22):
Interesting. What brands do you followthat you think are doing a good job?
I love following the Getty Museum onInstagram. They do an amazing job.
The Whitney on Threads isreally good. I follow the Met.
Milwaukee Public Library. Ifollow American Ballet Theater.
And of course the Huntington Gardens.
(30:42):
Talk about the Milwaukee Public Library.What do they do that's different?
They again lean into theuniversal truths of the experience
of a library and they havetheir librarians actually
doing skits. It makes me wantto go visit that library.
And I think another piece of it is justthe characters that can be in some of
(31:04):
these brands' accounts.
I think I want to go meet the librarianwho I love following on that account,
or I want to go see the ratfrom the American Ballet
Theater. I've seen them in TikToks.
I want to see what theydo for real on stage.
And so it kind of makes you invested inthese characters on social that you then
(31:25):
want to experience and see in real life.
And I've never met a librarian whodoesn't love being a librarian and talking
about being a librarian as well.
Totally.
Same with,
I have a background in zoology beforeI moved into marketing and every
scientist I ever met couldtalk for hours about their
(31:46):
nichest subject. I think there was,
I want to say it was a history museum.
They had a guy who did snailjokes and snail facts every
single week for a while in the pandemic.
And just videos where somebody's nerdingout on something very specific is
really fascinating and fun to watch.
(32:06):
Yeah. It also reminds me a bitabout the peek behind the curtains.
We have this phrase of,
"Your ordinary is your audience'sextraordinary." There's
examples of Troilus and Cressida.
In the play they have a huge bloody scene.
I think that's the one where someone'seye is removed and they showed exactly
how that eye was removed and how theycleaned it every night and reset it the
(32:28):
next day.
Oh, that's amazing.
I love stuff like that.
That's amazing. I love that.
Maybe it was King Lear, I can't remember.
All the Shakespeare nerdswho are listening to this are screaming at the podcast
right now, and I can hear them.
What do you think people misunderstandmost about social media management for
brands?
A lot of people think that it's really fun
(32:49):
and we're just on our phone all the time,
and "how lucky you getto scroll..." I mean,
I remember a colleague saying that tome like, oh, you just scroll all day.
And while some of that'strue-I do find it fun,
I obviously work in it for areason-it's a lot of hard work.
It's really hard to reachaudiences and it's a really,
really valuable function for a business.
(33:09):
And while the ROI isn'tas numbers-driven as paid
social or email marketing,
it's so so important and sovaluable. And so I dunno,
I just think that there's a lot of hardwork and strategy that goes into it,
and it's not just assimple as pressing post.
Yeah.
How important is it for social mediamanagers to be passionate about the brand
(33:31):
they represent?
I think that having aninterest in the industry
or the organization thatyou are working for is
really, really important.
I say that I am good atsocial because I work with
brands where I love and aminterested in what they're all
(33:53):
about. I loved food beforeI loved social media,
and I found social media asa way to extend that love.
And so I think that it doesn't haveto be something you're an expert at,
but it has to be somethingthat you're so curious about.
I think curiosity is the bestquality in a social manager.
And so you're always looking for newways in, new ways to tell a story.
(34:17):
And I think that being curious aboutthe industry you're working in is
everything.
Yeah.
I think that resonates with a lot ofour listeners because we work in arts
and culture for a reason.A lot of people come from,
especially in performing arts,
people come from performing backgroundsand work in this because they love this
(34:38):
industry.
I think the more we candemonstrate that in organic
social, the better timeeveryone's going to have.
Yeah,
that makes me think about a TikTok thatI saw from American Ballet Theater,
which was just a video ofballet dancers and you could
just hear the tapping ofthe shoes on the stage,
(34:58):
and it was just this moment thatonly a social manager who knows the
arts and knows ballet would be ableto see and see that's a good piece of
content. If I was to go film, Iwould be like, I don't hear that.
That's not that interesting tome. The social manager heard that,
thought that that wasmaybe ASMR-y in a way,
and people might want to hear this.And it's a huge video for them.
(35:21):
So I think that just goes to show thathaving the person who's behind the
camera, who's doing the social strategy,
being really interested and able to seethings that maybe somebody else couldn't
is really important.
What is important for an organizationto consider when hiring for their
marketing team?
Especially in roles that heavilyfocus on social media management?
(35:42):
I always focus on instincts, ideas.
I'm less focused on thetechnical side of things.
You can teach how to edit a video.You can teach how to write a caption.
You can teach how to use thescheduling tool. It's like,
did they come to the interviewwith excitement and ideas
and new ways in and accountsthat they love to follow?
(36:07):
That to me is number one.
Yeah. And finally,
if you could broadcast onemessage to executive directors,
leadership teams, staff, and boardsof thousands of arts organizations,
what would that message be?
I think it's to loosen upa little bit on social.
I think that there's, again, afeeling like if we show too much,
(36:31):
then people won't be incentivized to come.
Or if we loosen up too much,the prestige will be gone.
And I would say that to me,
and to I'm sure a lotof potential customers
or viewers younger than me,
(36:51):
that is going to be the thingthat makes them want to come.
Organic social media can be thatentry point for a lot of people
and
approaching those platforms in a way thatfeels like how people want to consume
there, I think is really important.
Awesome. Well, thank you somuch for joining us, Rachel.
(37:13):
Where can people sign up for yournewsletter or hear more about your work?
You can sign up for Link ln Bio at
www.milkkarten.net,
and you can follow meon social @milkkarten.
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
(37:41):
Before we say goodbye, let's wrapthings up with CI-lebrity Sightings.
Here's some of our favorite news storiesabout CI clients in 60 seconds or less.
First,
Taproot News cited Edmonton SymphonyOrchestra's efforts to engage the under-17
set in the article,
"How arts organizations are working toattract younger audiences." Nice work,
ESO! Next, the team at Observercaught up with Nicholas Baume,
(38:04):
Public Art Fund's executiveand artistic director,
to discuss the state of public art inNew York. Our favorite quote? "Powerful,
relevant public art isessential in fostering an authentic sense of community."
Well said.
Chicago media company New City interviewedGoodman Theater's lighting supervisor
Gina Patterson for their nerd-tasticarticle, "Let there be luminance:
(38:28):
How lighting designers showus the show." And finally,
the Apollo was announced as an honoreefor this year's Kennedy Center honors for
its vital role in cultivating new artistsand serving as a catalyst for social
and civic advocacy.
Please join us in congratulating theseorganizations and check out the articles
linked in our show notes. Got astory that deserves a shout out?
(38:49):
Tag us on social and let us know.
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye.
This episode was edited and produced byKaren McConarty and co-written by Karen
McConarty and myself, Dan Titmuss.
(39:11):
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are CIto Eye's designers and video editors,
and all work together tocreate CI's digital content.
Our music is by whoisuzo. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode,
please take a moment torate us or leave a review.
A nice comment goes a long way in helpingother people discover CI to Eye and
hear from experts in the arts and beyond.If you didn't enjoy today's episode,
(39:35):
pass it on to all of your enemies.Don't forget to follow us on Facebook,
Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and TikTok for regular contentto help you market smarter.
You can also sign up for our newsletterat capacityinteractive.com so you never
miss an update. And ifyou haven't already,
please click the subscribe buttonwherever you get your podcasts.
Until next time, stay nerdy.
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