EP#436: International Women in Engineering Day with Kaylan Smith and Laura Manley

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Parker Dillmann (00:10):
Welcome to circuit break from MacroFab, a
weekly show about all thingsengineering, DIY projects,
manufacturing industry news andinternational women in
engineering day. We're yourhosts electrical engineers
Parker Dillmann

Stephen Kraig (00:24):
and Stephen Kraig.

This is episode 436.

So this week, we have Kalen Smith and Laura
Manley on the podcast. Kalen isthe lead software developer for
supply chain and finance atMacrofab. Laura is the product
manager for the marketplace andfactory experience at Macrofab.

To the podcast.

Kaylan Smith (00:46):
Woo hoo. Thank you for having us.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

So before we dive completely into our topic
today can you y'all go overy'all's backgrounds a bit? So,
actually, Kaylan's been on thepodcast before. It was quite a
while ago though.

It was episode 91.

Sub 100.

The reason I know that is because you guys were
giving do you still give shirts?Should I say that? Because are
people gonna be missed? Theydidn't get a shirt.

We know you haven't given out a shirt

in a long time. Enough. Okay. I got a shirt. And
my shirt, it says podcast.
It had the headphones logo init. It said podcast guest, and
then Parker Sharpie ed in thenumber 91 on the shirt. So and I
still have it and I still wearit.

Nice. I wonder we should

do those

Laura Manley (01:34):
I definitely want that shirt.

I wonder we should do those again.

That that was that was really fun. And and I
if I remember right, we actuallyrecorded that episode at the old
MacFabb HQ in the engineeringdepartment. Yeah. Gosh. That was
a while ago.
Yeah. Yeah. It

was fun.

Alright. So Laura since Caitlin was on the
episode before. We're gonna haveCaitlin go over her background
as well, but, Laura, you gofirst.

Okay. Yeah. So my background is electrical
engineering. I grew up inTennessee and went to Vanderbilt
University. I was interested inengineering because math and
science were always my bestsubjects, and I came from a
super nerdy family, and StarTrek was just a nightly thing.

(02:27):
And all the cool gadgets andeverything in the Star Trek
series got me interested inwouldn't it be cool to design
little gadgets and cool stufflike that? So I know it's a
nerdy answer and it's the truth.And so after undergrad, I got
recruited into the oil industryand moved down to Texas, and I
worked in new productdevelopment for almost 9 years

(02:52):
designing, testing. I wrote, youknow, all the assembly
documentation, testinstructions, did my own
troubleshooting and everything,and that was really fun job. And
then the pandemic hit and had alittle pivot, started working on
my MBA at Rice and got a newjob.

(03:15):
Still doing electricalengineering, but a little bit of
a different role. I was at acompany that did high
performance connectors andseals, and I was the only
electrical engineer maybe at theentire company, definitely in my
group. And while I was at Rice,they offered a class on product

(03:35):
management, and I had actuallyfor a few years been really
interested in becoming a productmanager and I knew that I didn't
completely understand all theins and outs of really what is a
product manager do, so I thoughtto myself, I've gotta take this
class. And after I signed up forthe class, they sent out an
email announcing who theprofessor was, and it was Joey

(03:58):
Rodriguez, VP of product atMacroFab. And I got so excited
because I was like, MacroFab, Iknow them.
I used to order my prototypesfor for a macro fab, and so I
was an early fan girl of thecompany. I used to I I used to
visit and have some tours, andand I remember meeting Chris

(04:20):
Church a few times for sometours back

at the old location.

And I think Joey was equally excited to have
someone in his class that knewabout Macrofab. And it was a
great class, good fundamentals,and then it worked out super
well that I took that classbecause Joey ended up hiring me
onto the team. So that's how Igot here.

Awesome. So did you ever go to any of the, like,
engineering meetups that ormaybe

I was at almost everyone. Really? Yeah. Those
electronics monthly meetups. Iloved them.

That's awesome.

Beer and pizza. I miss those. Well Yeah. It was
great.

That's the uniting thing for everyone, I think.
Beer and pizza.

Not the meetups.

Questionable content on the no. I'm just
kidding.

How how long have you been at MacroFab now?

I have been here for 2 years.

And and what, what what are you doing there?

Yeah. So I'm the product manager for the
marketplace and factoryexperience team. When I hired
on, I was the product managerfor the quoting experience team.
We've since had a little reorgwhere that kind of rolled up and
split out. And so what I do, wedo all of our quality assurance

(05:38):
at in Houston.
And so I work on making thatprocess better and make sure the
team has the tools that theyneed to catch defects and make
sure products receive highquality or make sure that our
customers receive high qualityproducts. And we also have our
marketplace screens and showingfactories information about jobs

(06:00):
and having, you know, greatfeatures and communicating
information to them.

Nice. That sounds like fun.

The marketplace is where our partner networks
and factories get theirinformation from.

So yeah. Exactly.

We don't just have a line in Houston. We have
how many

Your factory's all over.

How many factories now? Like

I think it's 80

something now. The last I heard, it was 30
something, but not not that Ithink about that a couple years
ago.

Yeah. Okay, Caitlin.

Okay.

What's change what's changed in

Sure. 6 years?

7 years?

Yeah. There's been a lot of changes. Man, we have
a, software development team atthis time that's as large as the
company was when I started,basically. Because when I came
on in it's almost been 8 yearsfor me. In July, it will be 8
years.
And, of course, you guys werearound, but as far as devs,

(07:01):
there was just this tiny littlehandful of us. There was 4 of
us. And there was about 20people at MacroFab in total, and
that included, like, people thatworked in manufacturing
operations. And now there'sabout 20 developers. So at some
point a few years back, wesegmented the dev team into

(07:23):
domain expertise and bumpedpeople up to lead teams.
So we have the team that Ioversee, which oversees all of
our supply chain and financeoperations and supports them
through software, but we alsohave a team that supports all
the customer side stuff andengineering. And then we have
Laura's team that does themanufacturing and supports

(07:46):
still, like, quoting actualDevOps infrastructure platform
team that supports all of us asdevs and then just the general
infrastructure of the platform.So so I lead a team now, and

(08:07):
they're amazing. And, yeah, Imean, all of our inventory
management, everything, all ofthat is proprietary. Like, we've
written all that.
We don't use an off the shelftool, so there's quite a lot to
do all the time with regards tomanaging both everything that's
sitting in that warehouse andthen just logistically how we
move stuff around, how we getthings organized and together to

(08:31):
go out to we're constantly we'reconstantly working on it and
working on how to make it betterand then just supporting all the
crazy new stuff that Maccab hasbeen doing over the last 8 years
now for me, but longer than thatfor everybody else, and so

(08:53):
there's never a boring day.

And can you tell us how you got started in
software development?

So I was working I am not an electrical engineer.
I'm the only one of the 4 herethat is not. But I actually was
working for a long time on teamsdoing the design side and user
experience side on softwareteams, and I was cutting specs
for developers. And I was alwaysa little bit curious and also

(09:23):
maybe a little bit frustratedthat I couldn't just do it
myself. So I went back to schoolfor software engineering, and I
came out in of school.
And I've told this story before,but I met Craig at the time that
I was doing my code school, andI liked the idea of MacroFab so

(09:43):
much. I thought it sounded likea a brilliant idea for a
company, and I wanted to knowmore. Even though I did not know
really anything about electricalengineering. I got the idea of
the business and I thoughtthat's really smart and I'm
really interested. And I knewthey had a dev team, so I met up
with Craig.
I convinced him to I pulled allthe connections I had to, force

(10:06):
him to go have, coffee with meand tell me more about MacroFab,
and they were hiring exactly onedeveloper back then. And, I
applied for it. I did a codechallenge and in several
interviews and landed the jobhere. And I've been here since
because I really still believein what we're doing. I think

(10:26):
it's really exciting anddifferent, and I see the
possibility of the companyalways.
And I've seen it growexponentially over the time I've
been here as well, which isawesome. And I really like start
up life and culture. Directcontribution and I'm not just,

(10:51):
like, a cog in the machine,like, 1 developer at a, you
know, at a meta or somethinglike that. Like, I there's a lot
of code that's out there that'slike, man, I directly wrote that
and brought that whole thing tolife, and I think that's really
cool. So that's why I'm stillhere too.

You know what? So sorry. It just just came to
mind. A fun offshoot question.Now now that you've been writing
code at MacroFab for 8 or soyears, I find myself doing this
exact same thing with with mywork where I will go look at
stuff I did, like, 8 years ago,and I'm just like, oh, god.
Oh, I did that. Like, some ofthe stuff, like, don't get me

(11:30):
wrong, I'm really proud of. Butsometimes I look back, I'm like,
let me fix that before someonesees it. Cut a situation.

Well, what's even more cool is when someone else
is finding that, and that isconstantly true of software
engineers because we're bringingon new people. There is a, you
know, a commit history and a gitblame that you can go point to
and see, oh, man. It was and youknow how many times I pull up a
git blame in a week? It's a lot.Because we're always looking at

(12:03):
stuff.
And then the the and the bestpart is when you pull it up and
you're like, oh, shit. That wasme. Yeah. Yeah. And but you're
always I think it creates sortof a culture of, like I like to
think it creates a culture of,like, always I think it creates

sort of a

culture of, like I like to think it creates a
culture of, like, acceptance of,like, you know, everybody if you
had abundant time and you wentback and and you look at
something you wrote, everyonewould probably rewrite it.
Right? You'd if you're a gooddeveloper, you'd probably look
at stuff and go, I know I coulddo that better knowing what I
know now today. But, yeah,people, you know, you find it

(12:31):
and you look back and it's okay.But we're all in this sort of
shared fate together becausewe're all gonna see our code age
and get touched up by otherpeople, and it's how you, like,
kinda deal with that.
But sometimes there's really funstuff, and I've found some
really interesting decisions,comments, you name it. Stuff

(12:53):
that I thought was long gone,then you find it still being
used as a code path. I it justit's awesome.

That's fun. Well well, actually, one one quick
question for for Laura. Youmentioned that you you'd be at
the beginning of your career,you were doing design work. I
think you said for for 9 years.Right?
And now with your MBA andworking at MacAfee, you're
moving on to, productdevelopment or product
management. What I've noticedwith specifically classic double

(13:20):
e degrees, there sort of comes afork in your career where you
can continue on with just likethe classic design work or you
can kinda move into managementwhether that be product or
people or whatever. I'm curiousis that something do do you
kinda long for the classicdesign work or do you before you
see yourself just let's go fullproduct going forward?

Oh, no regrets. I'm very happy. Really loved
doing design work, andengineering is super fun. I
don't regret any of the timethat I spent doing that, but I
also don't miss it. I love Ilove the faster pace of being at
a smaller company and that weare so nimble.
And our projects are oftenmeasured in weeks, not years.

(14:08):
And that's very rewarding to beable to see quick turnarounds
that we found a problem and weimplemented a solution and to
really be able to iterate onthat and see it get better and
better so quickly.

I've found that there are just some, especially
electrical engineers, who reallylove to just dig their heels in
and become the subject matterexpert, like, the person you
have to go to and they wannajust show up, sit at their desk
every day and do that. Andthere's no problem with that.
That's actually a really helpfulthing. But, certainly, there's

(14:43):
plenty of people who are like, Ican't be the I can't be the
single focus person. You know?

Yeah. The world needs both types for sure.

Yeah. I I love product management because I get
to be so involved in the youknow the decision making and in
talking with the stakeholdersand figuring out what really is
the problem, make sure we'refixing the right problem, as
much fun as being thatindividual contributor is I I

(15:15):
think it's really exciting to beso in the thick of it every day.
And I definitely feel like Imake a big impact on, you know,
the team and and on the company.And I used to not have a lot of
meetings because it was verymuch sit at your desk and design
the circuit and or, you know,sit in the lab and troubleshoot

(15:37):
something for a few days and doyour testing. And now my meeting
my my calendar is full ofmeetings and it's funny how my
perspective has changed andmaybe that's just something
that's come with experience andage.
But, I actually love themeetings now. And hearing
people's, top issues is ahighlight of my day because I

(16:01):
feel very empowered when I knowwhat's going wrong so we can fix
it.

Okay. Yeah. You sound like a people manager.
Just in just in the way you'redescribing it. It it comes with
a completely different form ofstress.
Right? Like, as a designer in inso many ways, you you know, you
look at your requirement sheetand you're just stressing. Am I
hitting these targets? Can Iprove that I'm hitting these
targets? If someone walks up tome, can I show them how I'm
hitting these targets?

(16:26):
And it's an entirely differentform of stress when you have to
manage people and, like, are arethese people doing what they
need to do? Is this how it's iseverything being executed
properly? It's I've dabbled alittle bit in it myself, and
it's just I don't know. It's awhole different beast.

Yeah. It's a different level of detail. You
know, design work is very muchin the weeds, all the tiniest
details and living and breathingit. I do feel like product
management is still detailoriented, but it's not that same
level. And it's kind of cool tohave a team of sovereign

(17:03):
developers that is more the onesliving in the weeds, and I get
to look at more of the the UIand what's the user experience
gonna look like.

What is that like getting those kind of
requirements so you mentioned atop issues meeting I guess how
how do you determine whatproduct needs to work on? Like,
what do the developers need tobe working on for those couple
weeks?

Oh, yes. The the way that we

prioritize the problems. There's a few criteria
that we use. One criteria is howmany people does it affect. So
if there's a really cool featurethat exactly one person is ever
gonna touch, see, or use, it'sharder to prioritize that over
something that's gonna affect anentire team or even multiple

(17:52):
teams. We look at the valueversus effort as a really big
thing.
So if there's some low hangingfruit of really valuable things
that we can churn out quickly,that's gonna have a big impact.
So we'll try to do those, youknow, at a higher prioritization
level.

That's the short of it. I just like that we have
product managers finally becauseas a dev and as a technical
lead, I love figuring out how tofix it, but I don't want to
figure out the priority list. Ijust want someone to tell me
what to do, and then I will goand do it. But I the in a way, I

(18:31):
think figuring out theprioritization of things is the
hardest part because you have toyou're gonna disappoint
somebody.

Yes. That's, I think, the hardest part of the
job.

Yeah.

And we have to be a little ruthless sometimes in
how we prioritize, and peoplewill come to me with feature
requests for stuff that isawesome. And I, like, I love
this idea. We should totally doit. However, we have to fix this
other thing first and, you know,we have this other project on
horizon. And so, you know,prioritizing it is like, oh,

(19:05):
realistically, we're not gonnaget to that feature for a few
months.

I did product a little bit and yeah. I that it's
just not for me. It's I can'tit's really hard for me to
prioritize

stuff. I do think it's funny how we have a bit of
a split here. May maybe notfunny, but but interesting that
we have very detail oriented andI'm pointing to my screen here,
but detail oriented and and alittle bit more, like, customer
or, people wrangling what's the

business, kind of looking at, like, what's the ROI
and, you know, what'll help ourbottom line.

Right. Which is I've found both are absolutely
critical to have. Like, as ayounger engineer, I was like,
just give me my requirements andI will go knock them out. You'll
get something beautiful. And andthat fails really quickly if
there's not somebody guidingthat.
Right?

Mhmm.

Yeah. I remember being the engineer that, you
know, is handed a project towork on and, you know, didn't
know why this was the project wewere doing and, you know, wasn't
involved in any of that type ofdecision making. So it's really
cool to be on the other side ofthe table where I'm the one
deciding which project we'regonna do next.

Well, it sounds like you really like it.

I love it.

Well, you wanna get into some of the topics? I
we we've kind of been goinggoing on background here for a
bit. But, you know, today, weare talking about International
Women in Engineering Day. And sothere was a few questions, that
we've already kind of gone overbecause we've we've talked about
your backgrounds and kinda whatgot you into engineering or or
technology. But I'm curious ifthere was any challenges along

(20:44):
the way, for you in in educationor in finding a job or or
anything like that?

I wanted to hear Laura's answer because I was
saying before this that I haveto imagine I have to imagine
Laura was probably in theminority as a woman doing
electrical engineering, butmaybe I'm incorrect, so in your
education experience.

I'm trying to think back to how many women
were studying electricalengineering at Vanderbilt when I
was there. It was definitelysingle digits for sure.
Percentage of the program, wewere probably less than 20%.

I would say that's that checks off from when
I was in school. I think it wasless than 15%.

I I was looking at some statistics before this
episode, and, you know,engineering is is a very male
dominant degree. And electricalengineering is, like, the lowest
of of them all. Like, biomedicaland and mechanical seems to have
the the the highest ratio,whereas electrical is just dead
bottom.

Yeah. That was true at my school. I remember
noticing that. I was like, oh,all the women are doing
biomedical engineering, and thenthe second most was mechanical
at the time. Mhmm.

The when I graduated, there was 9 other
electrical engineers thatgraduated with me, and there was
0 women that graduated in thatclass.

And UT is a big school.

Yeah. The electrical engineering, it's
just there's just not a lot of,in general, people in that
degree path to begin with. Ithink I think electrical
engineering undergrads at Austinwas, like, 400 something total.

Which is funny because back then your school
was number 17 in the nation fordouble e. So it's it's pretty
high up there. Yeah.

Well, so how many were A and M then with you,
Craig?

I started with 11 100. I started with 1100
students. I graduated with 70,and I can count on one hand how
many women were in any of myclasses. And how many I
graduated with, with? Not evensure.
I mean, it was almost a runningjoke, where it's like, wait.
Where are all the women in termsof, like we nobody understood

(22:59):
why. Why is it that way? Is itjust traditional? Is it
competitive in a in a in astrange way?
Are there challenges to it? Andand, obviously, I don't have the
the background to, answer thosequestions. So I'm I'm curious if
if you have any insight on that.

Oh, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for it.
I think it's around middleschool that it starts to become
less cool to be like the smartgirl, and so that probably has a
drop off. And I hope thatinterest and, you know, programs
to promote STEM have counteredthat in more recent years, but I

(23:38):
remember that being the casewhen back when I was in middle
school.

Yeah. I remember that too. And for me, I have a
brother and it's just the 2 ofus. And my parents, you know,
always believed, really, both ofus were very intelligent and
could do the things we wanted todo. But for whatever reason, I
think they always held in theirminds that I was more of the
creative artist, and that sortof was the direction that they

(24:07):
praised and pushed me.
And to this day, they alwaysfelt like my brother had a
quote, unquote math engineeringmind. And then the, like, ironic
thing is that I work as asoftware engineer, and my
brother, works in a creativefield. He does he works for a
company that does, like,installations, like, for museums
and things. Like like, he did athey've just been doing a huge

(24:30):
contract for the science museumhere, and he got to build, like,
a 70 foot megalodon shark. Imean so his work is, like,
arguably way more cool and waymore fun and, like, way more
impressive, but I don't myparents still look back.
We my brother and I both went toRice, and it's a great school,
and my parents have in theirmind that my brother took quote

(24:52):
unquote high level math courses,which is not true. We took the
same math classes. We both didwell. But I there was always,
like, for me, I think growing upwas not something that was in my
family to see that a woman wasachieving these things or could
go into these fields. It justseemed like, I don't wanna say
not on the table, but it seemedlike I don't wanna say not on

(25:13):
the table, but it wasn't it wasnot discussed like some option I
had.
It was, well, you're creativeand, you know, you're really
smart and see where that goes,but, like, it it was never
discussed that it could havebeen engineering. And I couldn't
I love what I do now too. Like,Laura, I love where I'm at. I
feel like it's the right thingfor me and how my brain works,
but it took me getting therelater as an adult, like, after

(25:37):
college, like, to find that. Butthere are so many factors.
I do hope that, and softwareengineering, likewise, is a
really obviously smaller subsetof women, and I do hope that
that's changing. And I think apart of why I like what I do so
much is because I hope that I'mshowing other women that that

(25:58):
they can do it and anybody canand that time, I was the only
woman time, I was the only womanhere on the dev side, and then
we finally now have other women,other female software engineers.
We actually have a intern thissummer who's a woman, and it's

(26:20):
she's getting to see now severalof us in action, and it it's all
achievable. It's just but, yeah,there's probably many reasons
why it's less and I think we'refiguring all of that stuff out
and hopefully just showingwhat's possible.

I do think it helps to have a role model. And,
yeah, I think you're an awesomerole model, Caelin, and it's
cool to have people join andhave you as an example to to see
doing it and living it. Hearingyou talk about your parents and
and your family made me wonderif that had an impact on me. My
mom was a physician and, youknow, now retired and my dad was

(27:05):
a stay at home dad and that wasnot as common growing up. And so
I never doubted that I wouldhave a career, and I knew I
didn't wanna do medicine like mymom.
But, yeah, that that probablyhad an impact on me feeling more
empowered to go a little bitagainst the grain and do

(27:26):
something even though it's moremale dominated.

In some of the data that I found, it showed
that the female participation inengineering in the 19 in 1980, I
think, was around 5%. And nowit's a little over 16%. So,
yeah, sure, it tripled, but it'sstill 16%.

Slow progress.

Right. So I'm curious if it sounds like you're
hinting that maybe it'spredominantly cultural. It's
just classically cultural tojust not assume that, a woman
would choose engineering. Right?I'm curious if that is your
thought or if there's otherfactors that involve the
decision.

I don't know that it is totally cultural. I
because I also know that in Ilook at being a woman, but I
also look at, like, anybodythat's not white. That's also
very true of at least of atleast, like, comp sci world and
software engineering, and someof that I think is access to a

(28:28):
computer growing up and that youcan have early exposure to,
like, you know, a computer atyour house where you could,
like, have practiced somerudimentary code, and that's
just true. We see, like, cultlike, we see across different
people of different backgrounds,and that's also, like, an area
that software engineering stillhas to make more strides in.

(28:48):
It's not just men and womendiversity, but, like, all, like,
people of color and everything.
So I am the community lead for agroup that's called anita b dot
org, and they're a globalorganization that represents,
like, women technologists, justpeople of color, and trying to
facilitate networks for them tomake inroads in their careers,

(29:12):
go higher up in their careersbecause we also see, like,
there's a lot of women that getstarted in software engineering,
but they don't stay and tryingto figure out why that is.
There's very few at the top andthere's very few, like, female
CTOs, for example. So, yeah,there's probably a lot of
complexity to it.

What do you think there would be to change if
there was anything? Or is it amatter of just encouragement and
changing people's perceptions?

I think it's I think it's encouragement in
changing people's perceptions. Ithink there's just got to be
more role models in the industrytoo because you just have to see
it to know that you can do it.There's I mean, there's also
just I think everybody has theirown experience, and I've been
fortunate here at MacFab thatI've always felt like my

(30:08):
challenges were given to meequally, you know, and everyone
else no matter what we lookedlike or our backgrounds were.
But I know that's not true foreveryone else. And so that's
probably why there's anInternational Women in
Engineering Day.
There's probably not anInternational Men in Engineering
Day. I don't I don't know. I'dbe curious to know what you

(30:29):
think too, Laura.

I'm so curious how the percentage of women in
engineering compares in theUnited States versus other
countries. I would wager it'snot quite as stark, which makes
me think it probably iscultural.

I I think

I've Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

I was gonna say I've heard hiring managers talk
about how more men than womenthere are in engineering, and
that's a big problem for themis, you know, you you can't just
manifest a person out of thinair because you would like to
hire equally. Schools aren'tchurning out equal numbers. So

(31:15):
until we have women majoring inengineering at equal rates, you
know, we're not gonna see it inthe workplace.

Yeah. I would say I would agree a little bit
on the maybe on the culturalthing. Seeing that you as you
grow up and you're trying tofigure out what you're gonna do
for the rest of your life seeingwhat is possible helps out a lot
And so if you grow up with, youknow, someone that you know that
is an engineer, I think thathelps push you that way. Because

(31:44):
it's interesting, Lori, as yousaid you were good at math. I
was terrible at math and sobecame an engineer.
So it was not because I was goodat math. I decided to become an
engineer.

What's the I don't use math that

much now. What did you why did you decide then?

My my my dad was an engineer, and I liked
building things.

Yeah.

And so and my dad was like, well, if you can
pass the math classes, that'sall that matters. And so I was
able to pass them. I didn't dowell, but I passed them. So,

So when and why did you decide, Greg?

You know, it's funny because we were we the
same kind of question came up inlast week's podcast, and I made
a joke that is only partially ajoke. But I literally, one of
the deciding factors was thefact that I didn't have to write
as an engineer because Idetested writing in in in grade
school. And and I was like, hey.In engineering, you don't have

(32:43):
to do that. I mean, I wassimilar to Parker.
I was interested in buildingthings, but it was like, okay. I
don't love math, but I'm good atit. And so I was, like, great.
Like, this is the thing that Ican do, which is funny because
my current job, I actually dovery little math and I do a lot
of writing and I do a lot ofcommunication. So it's just
things change.

Yeah.

It's I think it really building more, like, in
that that's a good number. Youknow, it's tripled over that's
50 years now

like 40

or is it 40 e right see why I said math good

at math

and so I wonder if it will hit, like, a point
where it'll start acceleratingfaster because now there's more
people like y'all out in theworld that people can look up to
and see that, yes, it'spossible. I you can go do this.

Hit a tipping point.

It's interesting because the data is mostly
linear. It's like a straightline. So I guess if you just
predict it further out, youcould figure out when you get
to, I don't know, whatevertarget number you're looking
for.

Yeah. I hope so.

So that actually is a good question. Was
there any role models that y'allhad growing up that pushed y'all
to technology and engineering?

We're silent because we're both making a face
that's, like, racking our brain,actually.

Well, okay. Think about that real quick. It's
funny because we asked thisexact same question last week,
and and it was a a group of of 4men. And what was interesting is
there was everyone was, like, wehad to rack our brains on on a a
similar thing. And and I thinkit's funny because in in this
particular field, there's not asmany, like, classical, shall we
say, like, heroes or role modelsMhmm.

(34:29):
As there are in, like, manyother fields politics or or
whatever. So it's a lot harder.You have to you have to think
pretty hard about, like, oh,who's who's the person that
really drove me? I think in alot of ways with technology and
engineering, we're all kindalone wolves where it's like, I
drive myself. Right?
I mean, I'm not saying don't beyour own role model. That's
that's a terrible idea.

So I have an older brother, and he majored in
engineering. And I think, youknow, if I put myself back,
Laura, in high school, I don'tthink I had heard of engineering
at that point in time. And sowhen he's not an electrical
engineer, but him choosing tomajor in a type of engineering

(35:12):
opened my eyes to, oh, what isthis thing? Oh, okay. Well,
maybe I should consider thistoo.
And so that's a type of rolemodel. So I'll say my brother.

I think for me, it was kind of the lone wolf thing
because I didn't have that in myfamily. My dad was a
firefighter, and, so that'spretty far away from any type of
technology engineering career,and my mom was predominantly at
home with us but had a lot ofrandom jobs, none of which were

(35:46):
really technology, and I didn'twhen I was when I was interested
in learning to become a softwareengineer and learning how to
write code. It was not driven bythat I knew that there was fewer
women in the field. It wasdriven by my own curiosity to
know more and challenge myselffurther and be able to build

(36:06):
this skill set of something thatI really wanted to achieve
personally. It was only laterwhen I got into the, like,
education system and learningand then, of course, applying
for jobs in the workforce andnetworking with other developers
that I learned that I was aminority.
And then it really, like, doubledown extra serious because I

(36:31):
wanted, like, double down extraserious because I wanted people
to take me seriously in what Iwas trying to achieve. So I
think that's sort of my answer.I learned later, though, after I
got the job here that when I waslittle, my mom had one of her,
like, random jobs was she did dodrafting for an electrical

(36:51):
engineer. She did the handdrafting, and that was all done
on paper, like, with a t square,and, like, she was super
precise, and that was one of herjobs that she actually can read
these things, but she did not Ididn't know that until late.
Like, that was something thatwas going on when I was really
little, and it wasn't like acareer that she had, but kind of

(37:12):
a fun tie in.

It's really fun.

So was there any like actually like specific
challenges like were so camelike when you came into the
field and you realized that, wasthere any roadblocks that you
had to bust through or anythinglike that? Or or, like, how was
your time at Macrofab so fartoo?

Well, you want me to talk shit about people? I am
I'm kidding. Because, actually,I think it's been great for me
here. I was really lucky to landwhere I did here at MacFab
because I got to work withengineers that were all they I
mean, incredibly smart guys whohad so much more experience than

(37:59):
I did, and I got to learn fromall of them, and they're all
very different in their like tothink that I got to, like, fast
forward my education on the jobquite a bit because I had all of
them, and I still do. I stilltalk to some of the devs that
have been here and then sinceleft, but they were amazing

(38:20):
mentors to me.
I think that the most I havebeen very lucky in that my
experiences mostly have been, Ithink, people subconsciously
kinda assuming you may not knowas much or I was listening to a
a talk that was given by asenior engineer software
engineer for Adobe, this amazingwoman, and she was discussing

(38:43):
that for a number of justimplicit bias reasons that, if,
for her example was, like, if awhite guy just shows up, but
he's had, like, a decade of lawexperience, but he shows up in
software development. Peoplewill, like, assume he just knows
things, and he knows what he'stalking about. But for all the
rest of us, the non white guys,like, we kinda have to everyone

(39:04):
holds that in met along the wayor comments that have been said

(39:24):
and not necessarily here, butjust, like, out, you know,
networking and meeting otherpeople. You hear little things
like that and or you hear or yousee how people interact with,
like, other, like, differenttypes of people, and you can
tell that there's, like, this,like, kinda built in say that, I

(39:50):
sort of chuckled because I waslike, I I know that exact
feeling.

Yeah. I think the I think also Texas being in the
South has a little bit of thethe the good old boys club,
mentality, especially when itcomes in oil and gas and and
sales oriented, environments.I've I've certainly seen that
before and and and by the timethat I got out of college and

(40:16):
was in industry, I noticed thatwas really kind of only with the
older crowd that, it wasexperiencing. But I've I've
certainly been in that presencebefore where it's like, well,
that seems kind of odd. Right?

I totally relate to everything Caitlin said
that's so on the nose. My ownpersonal experience was actually
that the older guys maybe see memore like a daughter and would
defer to me and say, well,Laura, what do you think? And I
was really impressed, you know,day 1 out of college and, you

(40:53):
know, 1st day on the job. And,well, what do you think? Like, I
just got here.
I don't actually know anythingyet. And being really impressed
at how much space they gave mein in respect to to speak up.
And it was actually the youngerguys and the guys my age that
were more likely to think that Ididn't know what I was talking

(41:14):
about. And when I was more midcareer, you know, having that
experience of having to kind ofprove it.

Yeah. That's actually interesting to bring
you up having to prove itbecause that's one thing in
engineering is everything'sgotta be kind of backed by data.
You can't say something becauseI find that I haven't moved over
to marketing where people willjust say stuff, and I'm like,
can you show me the data onthat? And they go and I want I
wonder if if that helps out alot in engineering for that

(41:43):
because I mean, I know I knowKayla was talking about, like,
you know, if a a white dudeshows up and everyone just
trusts him. I wonder if that'sjust actually slightly less than
actually, like, hardengineering, like, electrical
engineering, that kind of stuffversus software development.

That they'd probably realize pretty quickly
that this guy doesn't actuallyknow. Yes. Doesn't have the
expertise they hoped

he did.

One of the things my boss likes to say is prove it
a lot. And it doesn't matter whoyou are or what you look like.
If you can prove it, great. Ifyou can't prove it, it's a
little more tough. Right?

Isn't that, like, so I I think it's so interesting
too, the difference thoughbetween creative fields and and
more technical fields becauseI've worked in both now, and I
remember coming in to MacroFab,and I had strong feelings about
things that were going on withour user experience, and I would

(42:40):
bring them up, and I'm bringingthem up to church, who at the
time was our head honcho, and Iwould say to him, like, this is
this is not right, and I can,you know, I'm just telling you
it's not, and we should do itthis other way. And he would be
like, why? And I'd be like,because it's because this is the
way that it is, man. And it's soit's like, you know, and he

(43:02):
wanted, like, hard data ornumbers, and it was like I and
it actually taught me, you know,that actually, well, if you do
wanna go back something, you canprobably find statistics that
back something to argue yourpoint, but but you it's helpful.
And it's as devs where we alwaysstart with anything too.

(43:22):
It's like, okay. Well, did youactually look? You know? Or,
like, you can't just you can'tcreative fields still, and this
is something about why I do loveworking in software engineering
as well, is that when I workedin creative fields, I felt as
though people's decisions toarrive to the solution, which

(43:46):
may have been a design orsomething, was always shrouded
in mystery. And it was very muchlike a secret sauce type of
world.
It was like, I'm gonna come upwith this thing, you're gonna
see the end result and it'sfucking brilliant. But, like, I
am not going to tell you how Igot there because that's my own
proprietary magic sauce in mybrain. Whereas it's it when I

(44:06):
went into software engineering,I was just, like, amazed at how
I mean, it is an open sourcecommunity for the most part, and
I thought, how cool is it thateveryone just puts the way they
thought about something outthere to the world? And, like,
you know, the the history isthere to see their thoughts, you
know, they're open to comments,they're open to other people,
maybe even potentiallycontributing with them. And

(44:29):
that, like, drives technology.
That type of mindset drivestechnology. And I think it's
really neat. But I still like,so what Parker was saying with
marketing being, like, we knowwe should do this. It's, like,
well, why do you know it? Youknow?
And we wanna ask as engineers,like, why do you know that? What
is that behind what's behindthat? What's driving that? Can

(44:49):
you explain that? Can you breakthat down?
You get really good at that inthe, like, engineering world.
You get very good at getting,like, down to the, like,
granular thing, but it's notsomething that happens in a lot
of other fields.

Yeah. I'm just trying to imagine trying to
because because before so whenCaelin's bringing up like it
needs to be designed this waybecause I actually remember this
a lot and because because Churchdid our first UI design for the
factory platform and when Kaylacame on, Kayla was you were a UX
developer. I think it's whatyour official title was at the

(45:26):
time. And and we were trying toget the new, like, version 2 of
the platform out and trying tomake it better and It's kind of
hard to prove if it's better tooat that point because you have a
design It's not even public yet,and you're like, I need to have
another it's not right. It'sreally hard to prove it's not
right without any kind ofbecause you don't have customer

(45:49):
data.
You don't have anyone reallyusing it. It's just hard stuff
to do.

Yeah. And and, also, like, I think that there's
a lot of creative fields thatyou learn the rules and you
ingrain them into your brain sowell that it's, like, you assume
everyone else knows those rulestoo. So when you go to, like,
argue your point and you thinkit's obvious, other people may
not always know that when theydon't approach from that

(46:15):
background, like, why you woulddo this or that pattern or
something like that. So, yeah,there's there were a lot of
there were battles along theway. But

But but I think it's projects like that help
build that gut feel. Right?Where later on, you can say,
hey. I I know this is going towork. And what's it backed up
with?
It's backed up with me making abunch of mistakes in the past
and saying I know what I'm doingand it failed. Right?

Yeah. For sure.

My my my boss on multiple occasions will will be
in a meeting and and we'll bediscussing something and he's
like, I cannot prove this. Andhe's like, this is an entirely
an emotional response to this,but here is my thoughts. And it
and I actually really appreciatethat because it's not coming
when he says that. It's not likeI can't just immediately trust

(47:07):
and be like, oh, this guy knowsexactly what he's saying. He's
like, literally, this is justgut feel, but, you know, that's
the way he describes it.

Yeah. Don't you like the when people clarify
that? I like that now.

I appreciate it. Yeah. I very much appreciate
that. Yeah.

Yeah. I've had I've gotten to that point too
now is is if I say something ina meeting, I either will
clarify, like, this is anopinion, or I'd be like, this is
what I'm gonna say, and thenhere's a link to the data I
collected. I tried to do both ofthose. Yeah. It's

Well, which is funny because, Laurie, your
comments about being asked youropinion on things right out of
school, I think that'sfantastic. And absolutely new
employees should be asked that,but there's been almost zero
time of developing that in thatthat idea of what is correct or
what is good, especially becauseschool drives us so hard to just

(48:01):
get the right answer and move onto the next thing. So I think
that's good, but it's also,like, would we trust someone
right out of school with theiropinion?

Hopefully not. Probably not. And I think it's
so important to note that schooldoesn't teach you everything,
and it's not supposed to teachyou everything. And sometimes,
you know, in classes, whenpeople are like, are we ever
gonna use this? No.
You're not gonna ever use this,but this degree isn't proof that

(48:30):
you know all the answers. You'rebasically getting this degree to
show employers that I know howto think.

Yeah. Or you just have for me, I felt that I had
just barely enough knowledge toconvince someone to hire me.
That's how I felt coming toMacroFab. Like, I had, like,
just at that time, only frontend developer knowledge, and it
was, like, I had barely enoughto convince them to hire me.
Like, I could complete a codechallenge, but everyone knew

(49:00):
that I was going to come on andI was gonna have to be a
resource they invested into aswell.
I was gonna be a contributor,but I was a new developer that I
needed to learn a lot. And thatis that can be overwhelming for
people, and it it is not it'ssomething I was talking this

(49:20):
morning to our intern about whojust graduated college, and now
she's here working on the team.And I was talking to her about
how, you know, there's thathurdle, but there's also, like,
there's so much intangible stuffthat you're not gonna have
learned when you were in schoolthat you're gonna learn working
on a proper software developmentteam and just learning how you
interact with other developersand how you ask what I like to

(49:42):
call informed questions and howyou take criticism and how, you
know, just bang your headagainst the wall over and over
again until you figure somethingout. Like, just all of that
stuff is things you only learnwhen you're, like, in a proper
software development ecosystemand none of that stuff's learned
when you're in school. Maybe thebanging your head against the
wall, but, like, you know, thehow you work with, you know, a

(50:05):
team.
Because you're very rarelywriting software in a bubble.
You're always more often thannot a contributor amongst a team
with striations of knowledge andpeople total badasses and people
that are newbies, and they alsohave value, but it's yeah.
There's so much to that.

Yeah. The whole working with a team kind of like
on the job training, I guess,for lack of better terms,
because when I was in schoolwell I got from group projects
was I didn't like working in agroup because I ended up having
to do most of the work And itwasn't until I started actually
having jobs where now everyoneis kinda, I guess, carrying the

(50:48):
weight. I started liking workingon with projects with people
now. And yeah. So it's veryinteresting because I didn't
learn that until afterafterwards.
And afterward, like, when I wasmy first job, I was just like,
you know, I wanna work on theseown things, and my boss was
like, nope. You gotta work on

a team. And I was like,

and now quickly learned that act the work
workforce is different thancollege, a 100%, and I think you
learn faster. I I don't knowwhat it is about. I think
something about college andgroup projects just doesn't seem
to work for me.

Is it lone wolf over here?

Yeah. No. Because it's not lone wolf
because you just got 3 otherpeople on names on the on the
paper you're working on.

Okay. So let's go ahead and do one more question
on here and this is just a funone. What has surprised you most
of working in engineering ortechnology or software? Sorry to
put you right on the spot withthis.

Oh, it's it was on the paper.

It is?

You have something, Laura?

I did not come with a answer pre prepared. The
first thing that comes to mindis putting myself back in the
mindset of right before Istarted my first job out of
undergrad, and I remember mybiggest fear was that I was
going to design some electronicproduct and it was not gonna

(52:13):
work or, you know, it'd break,and it was gonna cost the
company 100 of 1,000 of dollars,and it would be all my fault.
And I was so, so immenselyrelieved when I started, and,
you know, that first week on thejob discovering that there is a
process with a checker and anapprover so that if something

(52:36):
were to make it out into thefield and break, it was not my
fault. But, also, it was a goodprocess that we would we'd be
able to review it and and makesure that it's not gonna break
in the first place.

That's really fantastic because like

you were saying, they don't teach you everything
in school. They don't teach youthat. Like, it's Yeah. And now
it's so given, like, probablyeveryone listening is like,
well, duh. Of course, there's aprocess.
But, you know, to somebody stillin school that hasn't done it,
you know, first physics class,my professor, I was talking to

in in my first physics class, my professor, I
was talking to him about aproblem I got wrong. And his
answer to my just describingwhat I was doing, he he said, in
the real world, people don'tmake mistakes. And and and I'm
being dead serious. That's wordfor word what he said. And Wow.
Yeah. Absolutely ridiculous. Ihaven't met anyone who doesn't
make mistakes. And and Yeah.Talked to any engineer, and

(53:38):
they've all made seriousmistakes, like big ones.

Yeah. That, wow.

I wish My I wish that in my first
engineering job, I had someoneto check my work. Church, if
you're listening to this, you'llprobably be like, yeah. I wish
so too.

Thing, which is I think really funny knowing what
I know now. But when I was whenI was starting or before I
transitioned my career intosoftware engineering, I had this
idea because in otherprofessions, like, you and I was
kind of in this place withdesign. Like, you could become a
senior level designer, and youkinda knew everything there was
to know in the field at thatpoint. Like, you knew all the

(54:15):
tool sets, like, whatever you'reusing, Adobe products or Figma
or, you know, there's all kindsof stuff out there now, and you
knew the rules and how you couldbring a design to fruition that
was successful. And so in thatway, you you sort of cap out
your knowledge, and yourchallenges are only when you
get, like, a new customer orsomething like that where you

(54:36):
have to re like, think ofanother design.
But it's all the same systemyou're applying everywhere,
right, if you're a gooddesigner. And then when I was
thinking about becoming asoftware engineer, I thought
there were, in the world ofsoftware engineers, senior level
people. They knew everything,and they knew everything there

(54:56):
was. And it was so naive of mebecause, of course, like, as
soon as I started working, like,I realized how little I knew.
And I felt so terrible andterrified every day because I
thought, these guys I'm workingwith know everything.

(55:17):
And then as, you know, the weekswent by, it was, like, wait a
second. There's they don't knoweverything either. Like, nobody
knows everything, and I lovebeing in software engineering
because you can never knowanything. There is not one
person that knows everythingbecause the languages are
evolving and changing andframeworks and technologies and
everything is a moving targetand then there's just this

(55:37):
vastness of what you couldpotentially learn out there. So
that's why I say it's neverboring, like, you can never, you
know, get stagnant in yourcareer.
I mean, you could choose to,but, like, there's always new
stuff you could push yourself tolearn. And, that is really
exciting and like, a big driverof, to me, what makes a career
fulfilling. But I thought it wasso cute looking back, but I

(56:00):
actually believed that therewere people that just, like, oh,
I've just mastered softwareengineering. I just know it all.
I know all the languages, knowall the frameworks, know all the
tools, and that's hysterical nowto think about.

I'm curious. What

humbling.

Was there any imposter syndrome in that in
terms of being like, oh my god.People are gonna find out that I
don't actually know this stuff?

I the first 6 months at MacroFab every day
feeling like I was gonna throwup. And I wish that looking back
that we didn't really I mean,we're such a such a start up at
that time. I didn't really knowor feel there was never the
conversation on the other sideof the table. It was like, it's

(56:40):
cool we know you don't know, butwe're trusting that you will
know and, like, you better putthe work in to get there. And I
did, but we weren't saying thatstuff out loud.
I think one time I was outsidewith one of the former devs that
worked here who I'm still intouch with, and he was smoking a
cigarette. And he was like, it'scool. We all fuck up. We all
make mistakes. You'll get there.

(57:01):
And I was like, wow. So you knowthat, like, I don't know all
this shit that you guys, like,think that I know and it's okay.
And, you know, and then at atsome point, you do know a lot of
that stuff, and you feel interntoday, like, that's you get
there. Everyone's gonna getthere. And you're never having a
new, like, day 1 as a softwaredeveloper.

(57:22):
Like, that's over. You've doneit. You're good. You move
forward. So yeah.

Yeah. Maybe being, more honest when we mess
up so that other people knowthat it's okay to mess up. It
goes back to what Laura wastalking about with, like,
processes that check work andthat kind of stuff. Early on at
Mac Crab, we definitely did nothave that, but we just didn't
have the people to do that.

No. And there wasn't really a lot of time to,
like, have these, like, youknow, 1 on ones and stuff that
we do now standard witheverybody, but it was like it
was just like, build it now.Like, build it yesterday type of
thing. And it was I mean, in oneway, that's a great way to learn
because you're kind of justthrown right into the fire, and
it's like you you either make itor you don't. But it's also kind

(58:09):
of terrifying, and I could seehow a lot of people would have
maybe not survived thatsituation or not enjoyed that.
And it was growth. It wasknowledge.

Yeah. That's a little bit more a startup
culture.

Yeah. It's startup mentality. But I knew what I
signed up for in that way. So Imay have not known the knowledge
gap or what it would take to getthere, what, you know, even they
don't know and still don't know,you know, what they being, like,
senior level engineers. But but,yeah, it it was it is start up
life.
Any closing thoughts? I I haveone that is on here. Alright.

(58:46):
But it because we had a bulletpoint that Pam put on here, and
it was just the importance ofdiversity and inclusion within
engineering and benefits to theindustry. And I truly do think,
like we were talking about, themindset of the technology and
why I feel like that moves somuch faster than other
industries, and a lot of itbeing that open source

(59:07):
contribution and the speed atwhich you can share things and
build upon things.
But, you know, it is still allbuilt by, like, a pretty much
contingent of white men, atleast in the United States, and
I tell other women and people ofcolor, like, if you want to
build a world of technologythat's more reflective of who

(59:30):
you are as a person, you need tobe a participant in that. And
you need to understand what isbeing built around you and who
is building it. And I think it'sreally important in that way
because if you don't have thatvoice in a room I mean, there's
been a lot of, like, you know,examples that you can think of
over the years in the news ofthese technologies going wrong

(59:52):
or things that just weren'tfactored into thinking about
them. It's it is important. Youhave to if you want to build a
better world that's morereflective and inclusive of you,
you need to have a hand in it,and you can have a hand in it by
working in technology.
And there's nothing special thatI did that anyone else can't do
to get there. So I like to givethat message to any young women

(01:00:16):
that are thinking about a careerin software engineering or
engineering in general. Everyoneit's all possible for anybody.

Laura Manley (01:00:24):
Engineering opens so many doors that even if you
don't end up working inengineering or you don't stay in
engineering for a long time, itmakes it a lot easier to get to
what you want that next role tobe. And when I was working on my
MBA, I had so many classmateswho told me how much they
regretted not getting anengineering degree when back

(01:00:47):
when they were picking theirmajor. So that would be my
career advice, be an engineer.

Parker Dillmann (01:00:54):
Yeah. That was always that was the advice my my
dad gave me. He's like, if youget an engineering degree you
can do anything you want to doI've kind of kept with
engineering, but it's it'sdefinitely like Yeah. It's you
you can kinda just, like, oh, Iguess actually no because I
don't wanna do engineeringreally anymore at work. I do
marketing now.
I pretend to do marketing. Ifeel like Kaylin at the very

(01:01:16):
beginning now because I have noidea what I'm doing.

Kaylan Smith (01:01:19):
We've role reversed.

Yeah. What I'm doing.

You know, and nobody said that to me when I
was achieving my visual artsdegree. No one said, you can
take this and do anything.Actually, I mean, it's, like,
it's funny now that this is theworld I work in, but I do
actually know quite a number ofartists that, like, work in
engine as engineers now. It'snot such a weird leap, but I was
I was just joking. I'm makingthe, like, comment about

(01:01:44):
engineering opening the doors.
I'm not sure the art degreedoes, but it it can. Yeah. It
might be true.

You can still do anything, but it's a little
easier Yeah. If you started outdoing engineering.

Stephen Kraig (01:01:55):
Yeah. Well, Caitlin and Laura, we really
appreciate you coming on and anddiscussing this with us.

I was gonna say something. No. Thanks. It was
terrible. No.
No. We had a good time. We had agreat time.

No. I I was gonna ask. I was waiting for
y'all to respond.

I know it looks like it. So this probably sounds
like we were like, okay.

Cool. Yeah. Cool. Later.

See

you. We already hung up.

What can our listeners if they wanna ask
y'all questions or anything likethat, where can they get a hold
of y'all? We have a communityforum. If we questions there,
can I point them to y'all?Totally.

I love answering questions from people,
especially women that are outthere that are thinking about a
career in software, and I'll bereally honest about stuff and
give, you know, hopefully, somethoughtful responses. So if
people want to send me an email,they can. Would that be maybe
that's a preferable way. Way.I'm not gonna not really much of

(01:02:53):
a social media user these days,but they they could certainly
reach out to me atatmacrofab.com.

And my email is lmanley@macrofab.com. By the
way, I'm the only Laura, so Iwanna see if I can get that
laura@macrofab.com. That'd becool.

Yeah. I think it's I think it's doable. Yeah. I'm
old, so I have the I'm an oldschool MFR, so I have still just
my first name. And I think Ihave Smith too.
I think when Smith left, I tookSmith, so I got both.

You wanna sign this up, Parker?

Yeah. Sure. So thank you, Kalyn. Thank you,
Laura, so much for talking aboutinternational women in
engineering day. So if anyonehas any questions, we have our
community forum atforum.macrep.com you can send an
email to caylencaylenmacrep.comand Laura at Laura what's l dot
is it l dot or just l manly

no dot just l

manly we'll try to get lawyer at
macrofab.comvia. So thank youfor listening to circuit break
from macrofab. We are yourhosts, Parker Dohlman.

And Steven Craig.

Later everyone.

Take it easy.

Dang on do our outro? Thank you. Yes. You
breaker. So, Caitlin and Laura,we call our listeners breakers,
that's circuit break, fordownloading our podcast.
Tell your friends and coworkersabout circuit break, the podcast
from MacroFab. If you have acool idea project or topic you
want us to discuss, let Stevenand I and the community of

(01:04:28):
breakers know. Our communitywhere you can find personal
projects, discussions about thepodcast, and engineering topics
and news is located atform.macfab.com.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP#436: International Women in Engineering Day with Kaylan Smith and Laura Manley

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

EP#436: International Women in Engineering Day with Kaylan Smith and Laura Manley

On Purpose with Jay Shetty