Moonwalker (feat. Russ Robinson of Infectious Groove Music)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to close Watch now, a proud member of the
Odd Pods media network. This is the show where we
get to know our guests through the movies they love.
I'm your host, Robert Ghannis Junior, and this is episode
twenty seven of the podcast. I am honored to welcome
Russ Robinson of Infectious Groove. How are you doing, sir?

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Not too bad at all. I'm excited to be here.
This is a topic, the artist and question that I
have an endless amount of time to talk about.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
So yeah, yeah, exactly. Of course on this show. You
can find more episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Good Pods,
and other podcasters, as well as cricketable dot Com. Ratings
and reviews are always appreciated. Will be discussing another installment
of our movie musicals. We've been doing a series on

(01:06):
Let's See. Most recently we did films like Wicked and
Phill on the roof Sound of Music Chicago. Mulan Rouge
and I wanted to switch it up. Obviously, I know
you're a huge Michael Jackson fan and I am as well,
so I was like, well this if ever, there was
an opportunity to talk about Moonwalker from nineteen eighty eight,

(01:26):
this would be it. So, sir, you were very very
enthusiastic and very open, Like as soon as I said Moonwalker,
you're like, yes, when let me know when I am there.
So first of all, tell people a little bit about
Infectious Groove and then we'll shift over into MJ territory.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
So we have a ton of older podcast episodes that
people can find us on any podcast, you know, whatever
you use for your provider. But the audio only podcast
was discontinued out geez, I think about a year ago now,
but we still have like a couple hundred episodes out there.
So if you do want to listen to a good

(02:04):
time with three people talking about all things they love
about music, then look those up on your provider. But
what we've been focusing on lately is the YouTube channel,
and by lately I mean the past four years and
the extreme short pitch on our show is we are
aware that we could get far more clicks and far

(02:27):
more attention with hot takes and for lack of a
better term, insulting things, and we feel like there's enough
of that on the internet as it is. So instead
of doing five overrated albums or five of the worst
singers of all time or you know, we don't use
words like terrible, overrated, worst, you know, all we do

(02:49):
is we talk about things that we like, because why
talk about things we don't like?

Speaker 3 (02:53):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, so if you come into the YouTube channel Infectious
Groove Music YouTube channel, you will find, you know, five
underrated songs by this band or we More recently, we
started a new series called What's So Great About, which
we can go anywhere we want to, but like, uh,
for example, Pink Floyd the Wall is my favorite album
of all time, and so I did just a video
on what's so great about Pink Floyd the Wall, Like,

(03:16):
you know, why do I think it's so great? And
everything we do is just to try and focus more
on like I really like the Hidden Gems series and stuff,
because there's some people who have got edisonce and all
mine and I've never I didn't even know that song
existed by that band and I love it or you
know what I mean, things like that. Yeah, And then
if you're a big fan of a band or an
artist or whatever, a lot of times if you see

(03:37):
one of those videos, what we find we get the
most traction out of is people saying, oh, yeah, those
are five good ones. But if I were making the list,
you know, here's the five I would tell someone to
listen to or you know what I mean. Yeah, absolutely,
that's the kind of dialogue I would like to keep
going on the internet instead of just everything, you know,
being the you know, five worst songs ever or whatever.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
You know.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
So that's definitely very much my approach as well. Like
that's usually why whenever I'm recruiting guests for if I'm
looking for a specific movie or whatever, I'm always like,
all right, well, who's a fan of this? I don't
want to have someone on here, And then it's been
an hour just being like, oh what a slog this
thing was and tearing it to pieces like I don't
need that in my life. There's enough of that out there.

(04:21):
That's what you're looking for? Oh it is, you know
very much? Yeah, so I love that philosophy. I know
you've done some Michael Jackson content on Infectious Group. Have
you ever tackled Moonwalker specifically?

Speaker 2 (04:34):
It's funny that you mentioned that, because yeah, we've done
so much Michael Jackson content from the audio show that
we had in the YouTube with reaction videos being a thing.
We do quite a few reaction videos on the channel,
and we've done a lot of different Michael Jackson stuff,
but at no point in the history of anything that
I've done content wise, have we touched on Moonwalker, which
is crazy. Yeah, now we did, Lauren and I did

(04:57):
do a reaction to the Smooth Criminal long form video,
which is a big part of Moonwalker, but we haven't.
We didn't do any reaction to it or anything for
the for the actual show. And one thing too with
I used to have co hosts on the audio podcast,
and Moonwalker is not widely available, you know, like I

(05:17):
own the European Blu ray, but it's never even been
officially released in the US, and it's not on any
streaming service, or wasn't at that time. So it wasn't
like I could just say to the co hosts like, oh, yeah,
I just rented or you know whatever like they So
that would have been one of the reasons why we
never did it before.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
I wonder if that's the licensing issue, or if whoever
at EPIC is not interested in it, or what's what
to deal is with that.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
I have very hard opinions on the lack of care
that Michael Jackson estate has taken with his legacy and
the fact that Moonwalker isn't out in the US, I
am certain has everything to do with them.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, what that's that's actually kind of a good a
good thing to touch on too before we get it
to Moonwalker. How what do you how do you feel
about sort of this the state of his legacy? Like
what has what things have been released since his passing.
I know there's been two albums of like sort of
posthumous remixed and rearranged tracks, you know, with Escape and Michael.

(06:20):
What are your thoughts on the s of the products
that have come out since since two thousand and nine?

Speaker 2 (06:24):
It's interesting, you know, the Michael album is uh ex
has has some major major issues that were actually proven
in court where they used a of fake vocal on
I don't want to say to on a certain number
of tracks. I don't know for sure how many it was,

(06:44):
but they were they were caught red handed doing that.
But what's interesting is that album has a beautiful ballad
on it called Much Too Soon that really is Michael
and I absolutely love that song. And what's funny is
I didn't I refuse to listen to that for like geez,
I don't know, five years or so after it came
out because of all the negativity and everything, And it

(07:07):
comes somebody on a Michael Jackson forum who convinced me
to listen to much too soon. He's like, you at
least got to listen to this one song, you know,
And I did, and I love that song, yeah, And
the other is so Escape. What's interesting which is interesting
about Escape is yeah, I don't mind the versions that

(07:28):
are on Escape, excuse me, but when you if you,
if you seek out and listen to the original demos
of any of those songs, it's one of those things
where it's like Michael Jackson didn't need their help, like
he didn't need them to like overproduce those songs, right,
you know what I mean. So what that ended up
making me do really is seek out the original versions

(07:49):
and you know which is easy to find on YouTube
or whatever, and you find out that they were better versions, right,
So I don't because I don't have that readily available,
Like the versions that I like better are not on streaming,
So I don't listen to that album as much as
I would if the other versions were available, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I have. I
think the CD.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Version I have has both versions. It has like the
new one and then the original version, sort of like
the original.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Versions of each of the songs. Yeah, at the end
of it.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, which is which is cool at least that they
have that available. Yeah, it's been it's it's been rough.
As an MJ fan, like.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
It's that it's more about the I mean, even as
much as they completely screwed up the Michael album and
so on, it's more about what they haven't done, Like, like,
how do you have one of the one of the
largest selling artists of all time from from a sonic standpoint,
and inarguably one of the greatest visual musicians or artists

(08:49):
of all time and just do nothing with Like what
how I don't understand and like and I and I understand.
I'm sure streaming numbers are massive. I'm I'm sure Michael
Jackson in a dormant state is still very, very, very
lucrative for them. Yeah, but like, even if you just

(09:10):
look at it from that cynecle of a standpoint, go, well,
it's all about the money they could be making even
more if they would just you know, re release some stuff.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
So it's insane, it's very weird.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
What is your what is your history with Michael Jackson, Like,
what are some of your earliest memories, How how has
your fandom sort of developed over the years, And when
did you first come across Moonwalker.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Uh so, I'm I'm of a certain age and was
I was seven when Thriller came out, and I'm very
and of course now I'm very aware of the Jackson
five and the cartoon in the in the variety shows
and all that stuff from before, but for whatever reason,
I had not heard anything of the Jackson's or or

(09:59):
the Jackson five or Off the Wall or anything. So
for me, when Thriller started gaming gaining steam is when
I first heard of MJ. And of course, because if
you live through that time, it's it. There's no way
to overstate it. He was literally everywhere all the time,
like you know, and they would do they would do
whole TV specials about like just the history of the

(10:20):
Jacksons and stuff, you know, like just because he was that,
anybody would watch anything involving MJ.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
You know.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
So that's kind of how I got understanding what came
before that. But uh, the very first thing that I
heard at all ever off of Thriller was beat It,
and I was just blown away, you know, because it's
an amazing song, you know, and uh absolutely, and then
the visuals that that go with it. I was just

(10:49):
absolutely stunned and blown away by that. And then it's
it's a much longer story, but it kind of connects
into the Elvis Presley is one of my favorite artists
of all time and one of the albums, one of
the very first albums I ever bought was Elvis in
Madison Square Garden, and on that album, Elvis covers like
such a range of music, like just off the time

(11:12):
my head. He covers like Dusty Springfield, the Righteous Brothers,
I'm trying, I'm trying to think Creden's Clearwater Revival on
Three Dog Night, Like he does all this stuff right,
and that got me used to being like hearing a
ton of different types of music in one spot, you know.
So that's why Thriller for me, I mean, of course
it was, you know, ridiculous selling album, but for me,

(11:35):
what drove me to it was the diversity of music
on there. Like it's not just an R and B record,
It's not just a pop record. It's not just a
rock record like it's it's it's everything all at once
on one record, you know, and done and done very well.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
You know. Yeah yeah, yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
So anyway, so that's where that started for me and
then went up through uh when when Moonwalker came out,
I want to say I first heard of it probably
via MTV, because all the way through, really all the
way through Dangerous, Michael Jackson was still like a big
staple on MTV all the time, and so I want

(12:12):
to say that's probably where I heard of it. What's
interesting is for being as bad as either my second
or third favorite album of his. But for whatever reason,
I didn't even get to see the Moonwalker movie for
years after it came out. But of course, the long
form version of Smith Criminals in regular rotation on MTV

(12:34):
like all the time, so you know, I've seen at
least a bunch of it, you know. But yeah, and
so that like when Moonwalker came out, I would I
heard of it through MTV, but I didn't even get
to see it really until geez, I don't know, sometime
in the early nineties, and for whatever reason, I never
had it and I didn't borrow it from anybody or anything.

(12:56):
But it's in the early nineties. A friend of mine
had a VHS copy of it, and so I finally
saw it and it was funny. I mean, we'll get
into the whole thing, but it was the whole thing
ended up being quite a bit different than I thought
it was going to be based on uh sweet Criminal.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
It's funny that, like so much of Michael Jackson's content
to a certain point, was like it was hard to
track down, Like you were saying with Moonwalker that this
this was came out theatrically overseas, it went like straight
to video essentially in the US, released by Warner Brothers
and a company who is totally running things very smoothly

(13:33):
these days. Yeah, yeah, they're doing sarcasm, sarcastle.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
Uh. And then like you know, with Ghosts, for example,
like that I didn't see until several years later when
it was built the Michael Jackson Halloween Special.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
It is like no one in the US nos coasts.
I think Ghosts kills thriller in every way possible, Really,
I really do. And I mean I mean you also
have the the benefit of you know, being over a
decade later and different. You know, he's he's he's a
markedly better performer by that point. I happen to like

(14:10):
the songs in in Ghosts as much or more than
the song Thriller. And for me, I'm really big into
the message in Ghosts. Like I if I know you
and I are friends on social media, I make absolutely uh.
There's there's no confusion regarding my thoughts on Michael Jackson

(14:33):
and how the media treated him, the world at large
treated him, and on the ridiculous things people have said
about him and the messaging and Ghosts I think is incredible,
Like and now and now we're gonna I know we're
gonna write videos later. Now I'm mad that I left
it off off my list. I actually that's never been
available here in the US, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, no exactly, I have. I think I got somewhere
they released like on see on a DVD, CD ROM
kind of vibe. So I have a version of Ghosts.
But I left it off my six as well because
I was like, well, that's kind of a cheat. That's
that's it's forty minutes. There's at least these three songs
I think featured in it. Yeah, yeah, too bad?

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Is it scary? And Ghosts I think are all in that.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Yeah, so I'm like that that's not fair to the
rest of the videos, but yeah, no, I totally would
have included that as well. So, so Moonwalker is a
little bit different than a lot of the movie musicals
we've been covering. This is more of anthology style. I
feel like it's it's Michael Jackson trying to capture sort

(15:40):
of that the thing that the Beatles were doing for
a while, the kind of making a movie celebrating their
career that's also sort of pushing it forward, whether kind
of playing themselves, kind of playing a character. And I
think that that's Do you feel like that is a
a genre, an approach to a a musical artist's catalog

(16:02):
or career that we're not really like that has kind
of disappeared as of now, because I can't remember the
last time that's happened. Like, if you see a music
artist that's big enough for something like that, it's either
a concert film or like what's really popular now, which
is the concert film slash documentary kind of behind the scenes,
but nothing that actually attempts to you know, no attempt

(16:24):
at actual like real filmmaking, narrative filmmaker.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
The only thing I've seen even remotely close to that
she's I don't know, in twenty years is there's a
Disney Plus special for Billie Eilish called out I think
it's just called Happier than Ever or a Happier than
Ever in Los Angeles or something, and it's a really
interesting piece where she's playing to a crowd of no

(16:48):
One at Hollywood Bowl, and interspersed with it is a
animated version of her that's like traveling all through Los Angeles,
and like Los Angeles is extremely important to her and
her st and so the animated version of her is
like going around Los Angeles to those places and whatnot.
And so that's that's at least like an original and
unique way to do that, you know, honestly. And it

(17:11):
looks fantastic too, like it's it's shot so well. But
but yeah, I can't think of anything else.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
I think.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
I think really what you were saying, I think eventually
people just stopped being trying to be any sort of
creative with it and they were like, look, just put
the songs, well some backstage stuff, and we'll just call
that good, you know.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Exactly, yeah, exactly the kind of movie that like the
Lonely Islands pop star was parodying.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
It just became like that. I love that movie so much.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
I get Humble stuck in my head more often than
i'd like to admit.

Speaker 3 (17:43):
That's so great. It is amazing.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
And MJ was always really not only you know, speaking
to what it's sort of transpired with his legacy. He
was always such a perfectionist, so like he's rolling around
somewhere being like, what are you guys doing music? And
then you know, he was very hands on, very self aware,
very sort of self mythologizing sounds sounds like a negative,

(18:10):
but I don't necessarily feel like it is. Like he
was very much like celebrating his journey even as it
was still happening. And I think Moonwalker is a great
example of that. Would you say no, I totally agree.
And you know, it's interesting what you said that the
term you use where you said, you know, that's probably
kind of a negative. Well, you know, again, I have

(18:31):
extremely strong opinions on how the media treated Michael Jackson
while he was hearing and certainly since he left, and
a lot of it to me was him being like, Okay,
well someone's got to do this, like someone's got to
celebrate what I'm doing, you know what I mean, because
the media was like absolutely not having it, you know
what I mean, Like, like from before Thriller on, the
media had made it clear to him that, like, we

(18:53):
do not want to push you out there for whatever,
for what I feel or obvious reasons. They had made
that clear, and I feel like at certain points in
his career he just flat out was like, yeah, not
to have an ego about this, but what I've done
is amazing, and someone's gonna celebrate this tament.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And he was, you know, obviously in
this one. In this film, we g have probably I
don't know if it's the first. It might is leave
Me Alone, the first time that he's straight up like
taking on those crazy rumors and expressing his feelings about
the press and the media frenzy surrounding his career. And
it's yeah, persona, yeah, it's first. Just first, just general thoughts,

(19:38):
I guess on this movie. This is incredibly eighties, and
I mean that in the best way, like very much.
The stop motion effects, uh, the little kids in the
in the smooth criminal segment, it's very ambliney in a
lot of ways. What how do you feel that this
film has aged now looking back? Obviously it's very much

(19:59):
a product of its time, But any any sort of
insight now looking back on this movie, what thirties seven
years later.

Speaker 3 (20:07):
I'd rather not get into that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, So it's it's funny because the other night when
we were watching it, my wife had never seen it.
She'd seen the Leave Me Alone video, she'd saw come
Together clip, she'd seen the smooth Criminal Law form, but
she hadn't seen everything else, so she hadn't seen it
all one piece.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
And one thing that.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
I had remarked is I hadn't watched it and I
don't know, probably five years or so, and I thought,
you know, man, this is like really disjointed, Like this
is like it just is like here's a thing, and
here's a totally different thing, and then here's a totally
different thing. But then like there's kind of a thread
through some of it and not. But what's interesting is
what you said, you know, in watching it, it's just

(20:50):
because I've been conditioned to not see anything that creative anymore. Yeah,
that's why I thought that, you know what I mean,
like there was a time where we would expect creativity
and new and wild things from our artists, and we've
been conditioned not to. And so even with hindsight watching
that again, I was like, man, this is pretty disjointed,
but it's just it's really just art. It's what it is.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yeah, So to I guess to kind of walk to
kind of walk people through the segments in this film.
So we open with the man in the Mirror performance
I believe, right, Yeah. Then there's the retrospective. There's a
lot of Michael Jackson memorabilia sort of out killer. It's

(21:34):
such a great summation of his career up to that point,
all the highlights, like you were saying with the Jackson five,
with the Jackson's you get some dancing machine, you get
some who's loving you, all that great stuff. Then we
transition to batter which is with the children parodying the

(21:55):
Bad video. And this is in the same year where
Weird Al Yankovic did his His Bad, His Bad parody.
So I love that Michael Jackson is even kind of
going back and be like, hey, I could parody my
own video too.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Yeah, and one day, you know, it's a side note
I want to mention on that too is so it's
it's no, it's kind of a half truth. It's very
famous that Michael Jackson lent the Bad set to weird
Al to make the fat video, which I think is amazing.
By the way, not only is this dude, not only
is this dude like I'm the biggest star in the

(22:28):
world and it's totally okay to make fun of you
know what I'm doing, but like, also, please use my set,
you know. But what most people don't know. People know,
some people know that part, but what they don't know
is the Badder set is different from the bad set.
They had a completely different set built because it's three
it's three quarter scale because of the children. That's the

(22:50):
set that he lent to weird Al, which makes the
video even funnier. That's why they can't fit through the
turnstiles and everything when they're in the in the weird
Al video, and so it's even they look even bigger
and uh and more like out of place because it's
the three quarter scale set. I think that's so awesome.

(23:10):
But yeah, that now we'll get into I don't know
if if you want to do this along the way
or how you want to do one thing I was
telling Lauren is that you know, when you when you are,
when you're this big of a star, you get to
a point where there's no no like everyone around you
is just yes men, you know. And even when you're
this big of a star, you end up with people

(23:32):
like John Landis and and Steven Spielberg are your guests men.

Speaker 3 (23:36):
You know, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
And I feel like there are so many neat little
ideas in here that I wish somebody would have said, Okay,
let's let's take this idea and expand it to the
whole thing, and then we'll do those other ideas in
other projects or something, you know.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
What I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Like even if, like you said, look at that the
retrospective part right before batter, that could have been feature length,
like if you I mean they covered whether they show
ten fifteen seconds of each song, you know, yeah, feature length?
Like and that's that's the dude's career from what age
seven or nine to at the time I think he
would have been thirty, you know that, or even he

(24:22):
could have put together a whole bunch of different parodies
of his own videos and that could have been its
own thing. And certainly the whole storyline with Joe Pesci
and the kids being in trouble and all that like
that that almost is feature length, Yeah, exactly. No, So
I just wish somebody at the time would have said,

(24:43):
you know, hey, these are all awesome ideas, but like
even the speed Demon thing, there could be a whole
different movie based around that sketch, you know. And so
for me, the first Cheese I don't know, half hour
of it, it just seems like Michael Jackson was like,
and then we could do this, and then we can
do use and everyone in the room just went yes,

(25:04):
I'm j.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yes, I'm j. You know.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
I wish somebody would have been like, okay, yeah, we
can do that in a minute, like let's do this
other thing first, you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Well, I mean he might not have had the opportunity
to ever get back to it, and I think maybe
he knew that, and so he was like, this might
be my only chance, yeah, to do something like this,
So let me just put as much in there as possible.
And to your point, like in the retrospective, there's twenty
one songs featured from Music in Me all the way
to Dirty Diana, Like what is that eighteen years worth

(25:35):
of music, so yeah, almost almost twenty years of his stuff.
And then, as you sort of mentioned, the speed Demon section,
which come on, gotta love and I've gotta love some
claymations stop motion animation, and again we get a lot
of the his depiction of the press, the paparazzi, obsessive.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Fans, yeah, so called fans.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, yes, exactly, And of course we get like little
references to Sylvester Stallone, Tina Turner, Pewee Herman who's credited
as voicing himself, which I think is really great.

Speaker 3 (26:09):
Which I love that big Pee Wee's Playhouse fan over here.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
So absolutely, any thoughts on on the speed Demon section,
because this is one that always really stood out to
me as someone who grew up with stop motion so much.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
So I'm gonna go a little bit off here and
then come I'll come right back. So Phil Phil Collins
is credited with credited with having one of my favorite
quotes about Michael Jackson, which is, uh, they you know,
people always all why is he always hanging around kids?
Why is he always hanging around kids? And Phil Collins
one time said that when adults see Michael Jackson, they

(26:43):
see dollar signs. And when children see Michael Jackson, they
see a friend. And I think in this if you
I may be overthinking this, but when you see the
the son and I'm assuming grandmother and they see him,
they go if you notice, their faces go from like

(27:05):
all innocent and uh like like starstruck by whatever's happening
around them, and then when they see Michael Jackson, their
faces become vicious and mean, like you know, and to me,
that's to me him saying flat out, this is how
I see the way that you guys treat me, you know,
like that's how I feel. I think that's a very

(27:27):
conscious decision on his part to where as soon as
those people see him, they get uh just vicious and
throw everything out the window and become you know, And certainly,
I mean that's certainly the media. People expect that of
the media. But when I first saw it, I was
very surprised that he was so open about going, this
is how you guys make me feel, you know, yeah,
and then good.

Speaker 3 (27:48):
Good, yeah, you go ahead and I'll come back around.
I just was gonna skip to the end of it.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Every single time he gets the ticket for dancing, I
laugh every time It's like, sign was right there? Why'd
you do the toe stand? Sign was right there?

Speaker 3 (28:02):
If it stopped just before?

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, and he and him and Spike have a little
dance off moment out there in the desert.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
All of that so much fun.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
I think what's interesting about this especially to watching it
now so far out, so far out, and you know,
at this point in my in my life as an
adult and supposed to watching it as a kid, you
really sort of read into so much about what this
movie has to say about him as an artist, about

(28:30):
his career. But what I want to know hear from you.
We'll get more into this when we get the Smooth
Criminal and leave me alone. Obviously, in a second, what
do you think is his statement? What do you think
other than look at what I've achieved, what do you
think he's trying to say with this film overall?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
I think the the number one takeaway that he would
have wanted people with this film to get is there's like,
I'm doing my best. There's no reason to be so many,
you know, And I think he says that. I know
that sounds like an oversimplification, but in many different ways

(29:07):
throughout this film, he that's what he's saying, is just,
you know, there's no reason to be so mean about it.
And of course this is a couple of years before
he would find out exactly how mean the whole world
could be to him, you know, And even even with
the the main storyline through Smooth Criminal and the near

(29:28):
the end with with Joe Pesci and the whole drug
empire and all that stuff, even with that, like it's
he's just showing people like I'm just trying to help,
you know, Like I mean, I know the storyline there
is is directly helping these children get away from the
drug dealers. But the overarching message to me is of
that is like I'm just trying to help. What's so

(29:48):
weird about that?

Speaker 3 (29:49):
You know?

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Like what, so what's so strange about that? Like because
anybody whoever dealt with him on a personal level, who
hasn't turned around to try and make a buck off
of him, would tell people that he was genuinely confused
about that his whole life, Like he genuinely was like
I don't understand why everybody thinks I'm so weird, Like

(30:10):
this is just my life, Like none of you have
gone through it, you know, exactly, And I just feel
like because it ties in with what you were saying
about this being the first time that he really struck
out with leave me Alone, And I just feel like
the whole the message of the entire piece is you
don't know what it's like to be me, and I
don't know why you're all being so mean all the time.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting when you look
at It opens with Man in the Mirror, which is literally, hey,
let's all try and be better people. Essentially, then it's
just like, hey, here's everything I've accomplished with the retrospective,
Here's where I'm at, Here's what you know me from,
and then batter is sort of look I get I
don't take myself too seriously. Speed Demon is sort of like,

(30:53):
this is how you guys treat me and this is
how you make me feel leave me Alone as an
expansion on that, and then Smooth and Smooth Criminal is
sometimes i feel like I'm being hunted. Sometimes I feel
like an alien. I'm just out to like be a positive,
a force for good and look out for the kids,
and literally ends the film on come together, Yeah right now,

(31:17):
Like it's so it's it's it's when you look at
it holistically, you get a good sense for sort of
thee and then and and again. That's those are all
messages that are present throughout his entire catalog. If you
look at Heal the World, if you look at you know,
have you seen my childhood? Like literally sort of saying
some of the things that you were getting at. I

(31:39):
just think it's a really it's a really interesting piece
from that perspective, getting some insight into the most famous
person in the world for a long while.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, there's so much about that that people And again
he touches a lot on that in Ghosts too, that
people will never understand. Like, you know, I always tell
my wife regarding you know, the debate regarding plastic surgeries
and changing of appearance or whatever, you know, in ghosts,
he I feel like he takes that on very very

(32:12):
head on. But I told, you know, I told my wife,
I said, do you know how any especially in the
day and age of selfies, everyone wants approval over the picture, right,
Like somebody takes his stuff in Oh no, no, no,
let me see that before you put it up, right,
And they're just concerned with it going up on your
social media, which in in in in all honesty, seven
people are going to see, right, imagine having your picture

(32:34):
uh yeah, literally in every man woman in child's house
and coming away from a abusive father who who said
awful things to you about your appearance, your entire life,
you know. And like I the way I always say
to people's my grandmother quite literally had a Michael Jackson

(32:54):
poster in her living room. That's the how how popular
this guy was.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
In the a.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Could you even try and settle on one picture of
you you would want in everyone's in the world, you know,
And then would you start really focusing in on every
little thing that you thought was wrong too?

Speaker 3 (33:12):
You know?

Speaker 2 (33:14):
And I feel like he addresses that in this But
like you said, everything is done with the purpose as
far as the messaging goes. And I think the messaging
is just hey, not even just for me, but why
don't we all just be nicer to each other?

Speaker 3 (33:26):
You know? Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
And then we move on to the smooth criminal section, which,
to your point, like add a few more songs than
and like twenty thirty minutes that could have been a
feature in and of itself. You get a very young
young Sean Lennon, Yeah, as one of the kids. Also,
I want to shout out Brandon Quinton James, who also

(33:53):
played like baby Michael essentially in batter and Kelly Parker
as Katie, which you know, I think are perfectly fine,
like kind of innocent, cute kids. They're sort of playing
in the woods. They stumble upon Joe Peshy as mister
Big aka Frankie Lideo, which I was always a little

(34:14):
confused about that.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, so like, did he have beef with frank de Leo?
He would name this character.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
He was very much his active manager at the time,
and he's in the He's in the end of the movie.
I know, it's very strange. That's very like, I don't
know what that is. That's one thing I've always been like, huh,
I wonder what that was.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
It's like an encoded message or something. Frank.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
I will tell you one thing that you mentioned Sean Lennon.
When we were watching that the other night, my wife goes, hey,
pause it like as soon as Sean Lennon shut up
on the screen. So yeah, she goes, she goes, that's
John Lennon's kid. I said, yeah, And she goes and
he's going to end this by covering one of John
Lennon's biggest songs, and I was like, yeah, Like, because

(35:02):
when you're the biggest artists in the world, you can
do things like that. You'll be like, oh, you're going
to cover John Lennond, Yes, and bring me his child
to be in my video.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
You know, yeah, yeah, no, that's pretty funny. This section,
obviously also is the most narrative of the of the bunch.
We get like a nice I forget how long it
is exactly, it's like at least forty five minutes long
something like that, maybe closer to an hour, and you
get a lot of sci fi elements. What do you

(35:31):
make of this section in and of itself? And you know,
we've often heard I think from Michael in the nineties.
You know, there's a lot of stories if he famously
wanted to be you wanted to star in Spielberg's Hook,
like you wanted to do a lot of movies, you
wanted to be more on camera. What do you think
of this section sort of I guess as a proof
of concept of Michael at the centerpiece of a film.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
I think it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
I think it's fantastical, Like I can't think of another
artist who would even remotely have the capacity to come
up with something like this, like at all. Now, I
will tell you there's something kind of funny. So before
I ever saw the film, I owned a Sega Genesis,
So I played the Moonwalker game on the Genesis and then.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
I'm not the Arcade, the arcade back in the day.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
I have the Arcade game in my living room actually,
but uh so I played that right So in the
in the game, at one point in the Arcade game,
you very you turn into a robot quite often, and
in the Genesis cartridge there's points where you turn into
the car. Right well, having not seen the movie and
only seen the long form Smooth Criminal, I was like,

(36:37):
what's what the role about of the car? Like, I
don't you know, like why are these I thought, well, okay,
video game, you know what I mean? Whatever, Yeah, And
then when I finally saw the movie, I was.

Speaker 4 (36:46):
Like, oh, robot in the cart you know, like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
but yeah, I don't think nobody else I think would
come up with anything even remotely as fantastical and based
on imagination alone.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
I think that the guy proved that he very well
could have been a force to reckon with in the
motion picture industry. I'm not I couldn't even begin to jibe.
I don't have enough appreciation for film to judge his
acting ability, so I wouldn't try to do that. But
from a creative creative standpoint. You know, this is another
thing too that years later, there are there you can

(37:25):
find this on the internet. There's actual recordings of Michael
Jackson talking about how in the late nineties he wanted
to purchase Marvel and full on hear him lay this
all out. And what's funny at the time they would
have given Marvel away, like you know what I mean. Well,
and what's interesting in this recording is he lays out
his what he would do is he would release a

(37:48):
bunch of movies, one off for each individual one and
make a whole universe and then do movies with all
of them together. Like he lays out what yeah, yeah again.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, cinematic universe. Yep.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Interesting basically late and he talked about how he would
he would open theme parks around it and all that,
which all of that has happened. Yeah, so in a
way like no one and of course the media is
not going to tell anybody about this. Uh the no
one knows that he did all of that, but like
in a way, it's kind of been proven that, yes,
he would have been a great creative force because he
just came up with the Marvel Uh you know cinematic universe.

Speaker 3 (38:28):
You know that's crazy interesting.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Yeah, I mean this well, I mean it's I'm trying
to split the difference between talking about the smooth Criminal
section and also not talking about Smooth Criminal because when
we get to our rankings that come up online.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
But yeah, no, I love I love this this section. Uh,
it does have that. You know.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Obviously you mentioned this thing made how the structure of
this film and obviously this is the one outlier that
you're like, well, is it anthology or is it this story?

Speaker 3 (39:01):
Right?

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Like it tries to split the difference, like like you
sort of mentioned, I think Michael was just like, let's
do as much as we can in this amount of
time that we're allotted, and so, uh, this is what
we ended up with.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
But this is the.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
One that I think really sticks out to me the
most because of that that sequence in in the club
which we'll get to and all of that, uh, and
then it concludes to come together, and it's it's a
it's it is a a movie unlike unlike anything else
I think, and it has its unique place in in

(39:35):
his uh.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
In his career. Where where do you? How do you?

Speaker 1 (39:39):
How do you reconcile this movie with his his videography,
which there are there is if people haven't checked it out,
there's that Michael Jackson's vision box set, the DVD set
that I have somewhere over here next to me.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
Where do you? Where do you kind of put this
in in his bdeography? This film? Like overall? How do you?

Speaker 2 (40:02):
That's a good question. It's such a unique piece. It
just you know, it's so weird because it came out
a couple of years after Bad, and I know it's
obviously very bad heavy yeah, with like dirty dynam was
I think was the current single all the time and
all that, But I don't so I don't think of
it as being to me, it almost seems like a midpoint,

(40:26):
like a different era between bad and dangerous to me,
so like I can, I have no problem thinking of
it as a standalone thing, but it's at the same time,
it's also such a collection of things. Jeez, I don't know,
it's hmm, that's a great question. I don't even know
where i'd rank it, like among because it's hard, Like

(40:48):
I have no problem ranking like his his records and
things like that, but with his visual stuff, it's like
it Well, even with this, there is a standalone clip
for Coming Together, but it's included in this. There's obviously
a standalone clip for a smooth Criminal and so on.
H and so in a way, it's just those things
all gathered together. Yeah, you know, but I guess when

(41:11):
you put it up against the other collections of his
whole works, I would still put this above just a
like even there there there was like a two DVD
set of uh called history that was like all the
videos that would go along with this, I would put
it above that for sure, even though that's more diverse
in covering more of his career. Yes, this is just

(41:32):
such a unique thing that I would put it above that.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Yeah, and it.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Doesn't to to I think, laying it out the way
the way we did, like what he's trying to get
across with this one, it doesn't feel as disjointed to
me now as as it maybe wouldn't have. There's a
there's a thematic connection between them, whereas a lot of
the other you know DVD releases and to our earlier point,
they are fewer and further between than they should be

(42:00):
in the in the United States, at least domestically. This
does it does feel like it's making. It is a
collective work as opposed to just a compilation of of
you know, one off, one off sort of music videos
and such. And Leave Me Alone wasn't on the original
version of Bad. We should probably mention like it came

(42:22):
out on the CD. I think later, like it wasn't
on the album or the cassette, right, isn't that it?

Speaker 3 (42:26):
It was a bonus track.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
It was on the CD originally to as a way
to get people to buy the CD instead of the album. Yeah,
but on later pressings of the album it was included
the vinyl rather. I don't know if it was ever
on the cassette or not. I now that I think
about it, I don't think I've ever owned Bad on cassette.
I've owned it on every type of every other thing.

(42:49):
But yeah, and even now, like what's interesting is now
these days, if you just go into a record store
and you buy like a current pressing of Bad, they
don't have leave Me Alone on it.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
That's weird.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, they did, like the original the current reprint, Like
if you just go and order it off Amazon or
you walk into Target and Bad just sitting there, it
will never have leave Me Alone on it, which is crazy.
There was like a run from like twenty ten to
like twenty twenty where all the re issues had leave
Me Alone on it, and now they don't.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
It's it's weird. It's yeah, I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
As a fan of that song, I'm like, no, I know,
it's not a racer from history.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
So you know.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
The one I always tell people, not that we're covering
vinyl or anything, but the one I always tell people
is if you're going to buy Bad on vinyl, just
spring like because I think Bad costs like twenty five bucks,
and for like thirty five bucks, you can get the
Bad twenty five, which is the three LP version of Bad.
And with that, not only do you get leave Me
Alone included on the record, but you get all the
demo stuff and the song that was supposed to be

(43:50):
on that was in contention with being on Bad with
it was came down to leave me Alone. In another
song called street Walker, and street Walker is on there,
and I think that song is every bit is good
or better than let Me Alone. So I tell people,
if you're going to spend twenty five bucks on Bad,
just like spend the extra ten bucks and get the
other two helpiece so you get the whole thing.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yeah, as you were saying that, I was like, I
think street Walker is the one because that's one of
the bonus tracks that always really stood.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
Out to me. Yeah, and I was like, oh, good,
I was glad. I was right.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah, and then Come Together wasn't on any of his
obs until seven eight years later with the History.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yeah, it's on the second part of History and Yeah,
which is that overall is my favorite Michael Jackson album.
And it's funny because I always have to clarify for
people because they're like, well, yeah, but it's a great hits.
I'm like, not that part. The second half of it,
from Scream to Smile is my favorite edging. And there's
actually two songs on there that are that were recorded

(44:46):
during the Bad era but ended up on History, Come
Together as one and earth Song as the other.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
Oh I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
Yeah, he had earth Song done back and I came
into that information by I'm a huge Pink Floyd and
on my show years ago, I got to interview Pink
Floyd's bass player, not Roger Waters, but Guy Pratt, the
guy who replaced Waters on the Base and he is
the guy who played bass on Earth Song. And I

(45:14):
knew that, but I didn't know that it was recorded
that long ago, and so he told me that, yeah,
and so it was done. Then it just wasn't It
didn't go on bad and then it didn't make it
obviously didn't go on dangerous either, and then he finally
put it out on history.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Yeah, that's that was actually another question I was going
to ask you, what was your favorite MJ album?

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Slash Era was why is it history?

Speaker 1 (45:37):
What is it about that specific because it's reactionary to
everything that had had happened, and it's.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Like a couple of different things. Yeah, and that's a
lot of it. Yeah, is you know, this guy just
got accused of what I feel is the worst thing
you can accuse a human being of, and the court
of public opinion and the media was just like, oh, yep,
you're guilty, and my story with that and I'll very
quickly do this. When when that came about in nineteen

(46:06):
ninety three. I was the very first person to be like,
oh my, this is the worst thing ever, Like I
just I didn't even question it because I thought, here's
this guy's always around kids, he's got all the money
in the world, you know, like he could you know,
wouldn't surprise me at all. And then, in my opinion,
in all the research that I've done, Michael Jackson is
the one person. The more research you do, the more

(46:29):
innocent he looks, you know, like when you do your
own research instead of just what the media tells you
about him. Everyone else on planet Earth, if you look
into them, if they've ever really accused of anything, you
look into it and you're like, the more you look
into it, the more you're like, I should stop looking
into this, Like I'm just finding out this person's worse
and worse and worse, you know, And he's like the
only guy that if you look at the facts objectively,

(46:49):
every time you find out something new, you're like, You're like, wait,
how is he more innocent now? You know, like, so
this guy got accused of what I feel is the
worst thing you can call human being. The quart of
public opinion and the media just all agreed and said okay, yes, yes,
we all think this, yes, okay, cool, and they all
the whole world turned on this dude. And then he

(47:09):
puts out a record that addresses it head on while
still keeping on his main mission his whole life, which
is to continue to help everyone in the whole world
and everything, like like songs like Earth's Song they Don't
Care about Us are are in this record as part

(47:30):
of like, hey, I'm still going to be me, like
you have done this and I'm still you know, like
here's my side of some things, you know, with like
tabloid Junkie and Scream of Course and all that. But
he's still doing what he wanted to do, not letting
him deter from that. And I think with what you
were talking about earlier where Moonwalker opens with Man in

(47:53):
the Mirror then closes with Come Together and how that's
very purposeful. Yeah, you know, History opens with screen and
gets very angry through the whole record and then ends
with a cover of Smile, which I think is oh
calculated and brilliant, you know, like he's like at the

(48:13):
basically at the end, he's like, listen, I'm getting treated
worse than anything that's ever happened to you, And I'm
still pushing through, so you should do, you know, Like
that's what that says to me. So and I genuinely
love all the songs on there, but even if the
songs were terrible, the execution of it is what makes
it my favorite.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Yeah, that's the album I think because I'm a little
bit younger than you. I was born and I was
born in eighty three, so I the one that I
like grew up knowing as like a toddler was Bad.
So we had the cassette of Bad, and I remember
going on road trips and listening to that and and
that kind of thing. So the Bad Dangerous era is

(48:56):
like when he was at his peak, where you know,
the black or white is simulcast on multiple networks in
prime time and all of that.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
I know, you know this, of course if that's one
of those if you weren't there, you don't understand exactly.
There is not an artist today, including the person who's
been annoyed by the press like the greatest artists of
all time, Taylor Swift. I don't even a problem with her.
I have a problem with like the way the media
does with her. Anyways, they would not stop all the
networks to show the same video from her at the

(49:26):
same time. No, And with Michael Jackson, everybody was like
Primetime on a Sunday. Wow, that's a you know, expensive
commercial hour. Wait, there's Michael Jackson video. Yeah, no problem,
We'll show that for free, you know what I mean. Like,
and if you weren't there, you don't you don't get that.
And it's a thing that would never even come close
to happening today. And so it's hard for people to

(49:46):
wrap their brain around someone being that big, right, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Absolutely, I think going back and listening to his albums
though to your point, I do think that History is
the one that I have my opinion, has grown up,
has grown towards the most because you see all the
all the cracks, you see that this this is his
most personal.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Album by by a country mouth.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
Yeah, like even with songs like I already said, like
Childhood or or d S which is not so thinly veiled.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
I don't know what you're talking about that it's clearly
not about Tom Steddon. There's no way that's not It's
not even called uh, it's not even called t S.
It's called yes, you've made it obviously. That is an
old move, by the way, that song that is a
old move, like Michael's like, you know, I'm sick of

(50:38):
this guy, you know, like but yeah, like and then
Tabloid Junkie of course, and and then there's like, uh.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Like little Susie.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Yeah, it's such a personal song to him, and he's like,
I'm gonna put it on here because that's this is
that important to me, you know, Yeah, and I just
it bums me out. I know, people who didn't even
know that there was new songs on History until I
until I told you there was, because it was just
marketed as a great sits in.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
That yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
I think that was his way of kind of Trojan
horsing and all this like personal content and be like,
not all of these are going to be like as
poppy as what you're used to from me, but you
get all the other songs that you do know, and
then also this all this sudden new material as well,
because yeah, so I remember, you know, I was ten
when the allegations arose, and that was like in the

(51:30):
midst of hard copy and all of these things that
were everywhere. Like so I remember seeing the his sort
of his statement about the commenting on it and all
that very much like it was. It was really upsetting
to witness in a moment at the time, and now

(51:51):
I do feel like his legacy writ large has has
this like stain on it that is it's it's very
it's very upset as someone who grew up with this
guy and knows what he stood for, and that that
totally misrepresents everything he was about. And I think you

(52:12):
see that in this movie. You see that, and you
hear that in his music, and it's yeah, it's a
it's a sad thing.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
It's the thing, the thing that bums me out about it.
And I've actually I can't believe this, but I've had
people say this to me, which is insane. I've had
people say, oh, well, you know, you know, you just
think he's innocent because you're a big, huge fan, And
it's like, there is no song good enough to make
me excuse if he was.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
And you know, my thing is what I always say
to people is well, have you done any research on it?
And you're never gonna believe this, But the answer is
always no, you know, yeah, Like I have I've gone
I've gone through ten years of FBI files. The FBI
followed this guy for ten years when they had no idea,
he had no clue that he was being followed. There
were there agents who started out looking into him who

(53:02):
were like stoked as you would be, thinking that this
is a this is a guilty person, and they were like, man,
we're gonna bring this guy down. It's gonna be awesome,
like he won in court, but holy cow, we're gonna
take this guy down. And then by the end they
were like, well, shit, that's just a really sweet kind
of human being, Like you know what I mean, Like
they were involved that like started out wanting to take
this dude down, you know, and they could, and then

(53:24):
they walked away from it being like, well, I guess
we should just close these files because this guy's not
gonna harm anybody ever.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
You know.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
But what the roundabout way of saying that when you
say it stained his his legacy. It's so upsetting to
me that Billboard, Rolling Stone or whomever can't start out
a article without mentioning it, or they can't end it up,
you know, it's anniversary comes up a thriller, and they
do this whole big article about it. Uh, and then

(53:52):
it's got well and then remember in the time since
you know that that the other thing was said, like
why why do you even you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Like, why not?

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Why has there never been a mainstream article about like, hey,
did you know that there's all this other evidence you
should look into, you know what I mean? Like because
and for me, and this directly ties in. I know,
it sounds like I'm going on a ramp, but this
ties into what you were talking about, Yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
To what you're saying, Like I wasn't going to steer
the conversation into this directly. It just sort of happened
organically because I don't want to necessarily be like, so
Michael Jackson, like, let's get this out of the way first.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Before we talk about Moonwalker.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
But for sure, yeah, we're here when you're talking about
like the messaging in Moonwalker, and you know what the
guy stood for, right, Yeah, when it amazes me that
people don't see that Michael Jackson stood for unity, love,
equality and being responsible for your actions. None of those

(54:46):
things benefit the media. The media makes all of their
money off of the exact opposite of all those things,
putting harmful things out there, turning people against each other,
making sure that you can making something out of nothing,
and trying as much as possible to keep everyone fighting
all the time, because even now it's it's just about

(55:06):
every single click you can get in any way that
you can get it. So it's much more effective for
them to ignore correcting the narrative on him because it
does not benefit them at all to have people think
that this, this person who was for all these good
things could have even remotely been innocent, because that doesn't

(55:29):
benefit them in any way, shape or form.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
So why would they bother? Right?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, yeah, And I think a lot of a lot
of people are also like, oh, but he settled these
out of court, and why would he do that?

Speaker 3 (55:40):
Well, because why wouldn't you just.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Wanted to get get rid of it, like get it
off your because because then he settle a lot of
the cases.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
I know too.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
So so here's you No, here's the thing with that is,
and here's here's a This is one of the huge
things that people don't even understand because the number one
thing people always say is a, oh, well, why did
he settle with that one kid? Because he did settle
the first case So what happened with that is they
had brought a civil case first, because at the time

(56:09):
California law allowed you to go with a civil case first.
You could you couldn't try you didn't have to go
for a criminal trial first. Okay, So they brought a
civil case against him for an undisclosed amount of money,
and Michael's lawyers said to him, you need to settle
the civil case because if we give if we do

(56:29):
your whole defense in civil court, you're going to win
in civil court and you're not going to pay them
any money. But then they're going to sue you in
criminal court and the defense or the prosecution will already
have our entire case and they will figure out how
to beat you and you will go to prison for
something you didn't do. So you'll win in civil court
and you will. So he said, well, I don't want
to give anybody any money. I didn't do this, and
the lawyer said, yeah, but you pay to make that

(56:52):
case go away. Give them the money they're asking for,
and then when they go into criminal court, you'll get
you'll get you'll get found guilty and the whole world
will see this and it'll be good. He goes Okay, cool,
it's still good advice. It's correct advice. What the ones did.
So he paid to have the civil go suit go away,
and you're never going to guess what happened. The family

(57:12):
once they got their money, didn't pursue criminal charges. Let
me ask you this, if the pop star touched your child,
is there any dollar amount that would make you not
file criminal charges?

Speaker 3 (57:22):
Right exactly?

Speaker 2 (57:23):
And so the other cases that came about never went further.
And that's why people say, oh, well he paid it off.
He didn't pay it off. California law changed. You had
to go for criminal charges first and then you could
go get civil after. So the other accusers that came
for it, it never went any further because as soon
as they started in motion with the law, the courts

(57:45):
were like, there's nothing here like this.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
We can't prosecute this case. Okay.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
The one that there was some sort of way that
they were able to push it through in court was
the two thousand and three case, and he was acquitted
on all charges. But again, nobody remembers any of this,
you know what I mean? And and and it's oh
the media narrative is always, oh well, he paid for
that case. Yeah, well, why did he pay for that
case to go away? My question would be why didn't

(58:13):
these parents? Look, I tell people all the time, I
have Michael Jackson memorabiliy in my house. I told you,
I have that Moonwalker cabinet in my living room. If
Michael Jackson touched my kid, you know how much Michael
Jackson memorabilia I'd have in this house. I would I
would have a body part in a jar. And when
people would what is that, Oh, that's Michael Jackson's hand. Yeah,
I mean, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (58:33):
I would know?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Yeah, he touched my kids, so I and he now
no longer has a hand like that's yeah, I would
there would be violence, you know, and there would be
no dollar amount that you could give me to make
that go away. So, and by the way, I should
say this because I'll I have to stop myself from
continuing to rant on this, because I'd like to get
back to more of the joyful stuff to do with Michael.

(58:54):
What I've just told you, those those couple of things
that's scratching the surface for how.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Yeah, I'm sure it's.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Just it's also people the media or whoever, just people
in general. I don't think they can conceive of the
fact that he he his And again he talks about
it a lot in a lot of his music. His
childhood was not ideal. It was so he I think,

(59:24):
doesn't he didn't see anything wrong with that, Like, you know,
he was hanging out with kids, he was being friendly
and hanging out and just like playing. Like you get
a scene in this movie where they're like running through
the woods. There's no other adults, it's just Michael, and
he's he's one of the kids in that in that way,
that's he views it that innocently, you know, and and

(59:46):
other people can't help but see that and twist it
and turn it and pervert it into something else. And
it's just upsetting to me that something that pure can
get kind of twisted.

Speaker 3 (59:58):
Around and use it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
It's very It's very when you see things like like
the video for Childhood, which I don't know if I'm
going to put it in my sex it's like right
on the outskirts because I love that video. Or you know,
you see that statement in ninety three that when he said,
like I've done nothing, you know, I've done nothing but
try and help people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
And he's like getting emotional.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
It's it's it's just yeah, it's we take a good
thing and we snuff it out. That's absolutely that's how
humanity operates a lot of times.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
And it's it's it's a bummer, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
It's it's it's it's it's a wildly upsetting and that's
and to bring this all full circle, that literally everything
we just said is that's all of that is one
of the reasons why I am. I remain in a
constant state of uh, just in awe of being able
to put out the History album and just being able
to be like, you know, because on the same record,

(01:00:54):
he's like very directly addressing what like we said, well
certainly not Time Steddon, but some with a similar name, right,
But then things like scream and like he's stranger in
Moscow childhood. But then there's still like heal the world
or not Heal the World Earth song, you know, and
and and smile, Like the guy's just like, well, there's

(01:01:14):
nothing worse that could happen to a human being what
I did. But I'm going to tell you to still smile,
you know, or like I'm still going to care about
saving the planet. You know that that I won't even
be here for you know, like but like you said,
it's just, uh, that's why I end up every single
time I listen to that record. I'm just I think
I get more in awe that every time I listen

(01:01:35):
to it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, so many, so many great songs For
these rankings I've been doing. I've been doing the six
songs from the film. But because this film isn't so
much it's it doesn't have as many songs as like
a standard musical.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
There's the retrospective and there's a few here and there.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
I thought, well, let's take a step back and in
a kind of review his career as a whole. We've
done a pretty good job doing that so far. Lots
of great songs in his catalog, obviously, But let's talk
about six. Let's talk about six, baby, Let's talk about
flicks and me.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Let's talk about what the good films and the bad
films up to me. Let's talk about six. Let's talk
about six.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
What do you have at number six for us, I
believe it or not, on this lest I have two
things from Moonwalk that appear in Moonwalker, and at number
six for me is leave me alone?

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Nice for the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Obviously, I think that what a bold video to make
at that time, like just literally going, hey, I'm not
an idiot. I see every single thing you guys say
about me, and here's how insanely ridiculous all of those
things look side by side by side.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Yeah, and doing it in that style as well, with
all the with the stop motion elements, with and tackling
the elephant, blunt bones and the shrine to list his.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
Tailor and all the room, Like it's such a visual feast.
You're just like so much.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
It really is something like like like you said, just
all the different elements going on and everything is uh
is really something like even the the like you said,
the elephant man, like the stop motion dancing that he's
doing with the with the elephant, any of the symbolism
in that where he's got to ball and chain, you know,
he's like a prisoner of what's going on, but he's
still being him, you know, and he's still It's just

(01:03:32):
incredible And even I think that symbolism at the end,
ever since the first time I saw it, I love
at the very end where he just gets up and
busts out of the the carnival going out around him
and is standing tall above everything else.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
What a statement.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, we might. We might hear from Lema
alone again on this on this ranking. So yeah, it's
evaluating his career and doing a top six music vie
deos was very hard for me. I mean, it's my
short list was like fifteen just to be like, well,

(01:04:07):
it's going to be some of these.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
After I got a message from you this morning, I
was sitting in my office. My wife and I both
worked from home. She came in my office and she goes,
she goes, what's going on. I said, I have to
rank my top six Michael Jackson videos for the episode tonight.
And my wife goes, oh my god. She was like no.
I was like, yes, I'm just straught.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
So I considered a bunch of different ones. I ultimately
went with black or white for my number six. And
I think I think the reason is part of part
of what we said earlier that we was such a
moment and mind you, I'm this was ninety one right
and ninety one two when this came, so I was

(01:04:54):
eight going on nine at that time.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
So I was like, ideal age be like.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Enthralled by by this music, by this again another album
that I had a cassette before I had it on CD.
It's just such a celebration of everything he's done so far,
the visuals, the yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Well, I you talk about taking control of the situation,
here's a guy who had an autoimmune He had two
different automune diseases, by the way, he suffered from lupus
and from vidilago. Here's a guy who literally tried to
tell the world no, I have this disease though, like,
and the world would like, but we have decided to

(01:05:36):
not believe you. We have decided to just believe all
these crazy stories instead. And he was like, but really though,
it's and they were like, no, no, no, thank you,
we don't want that excuse, you know what I mean,
and which is it's so such a painful thing. But
even on his autopsy they actually, uh finally confirmed yes
he wasn't lying and he did have vitiligo his entire life.

(01:05:57):
But you talk about taking control of the narrative, man, like, oh, okay,
you guys are gonna talk in to the media all
the time about how I used to be so black
and non white. Well, here comes a song called black
or White and in the song, I'm going to turn
it into look at all of these different all of
these different cultures and everything, and how we can all

(01:06:17):
try and understand each other more. One of my favorite
lines is in that rap in the middle of the
song where he says, I seen the bright get dullar,
I'm not going to spend my life being a color.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
I like, like, why are you guys so preoccupied with
the color of my skin? Because I'm certainly not. And
like you said, it's it's so visually done well in
that video.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
And then you have Macaulay Culkin, one of the world's
biggest movie stars at that time. This is fresh off
of Home Alone. I think going into Home Alone too?
Is that heavy D doing the rap there as well?
I believe No, that's another one.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
I just I just looked that up how long ago
it's I think it's just a studio. It's not a
famous rapper, let me put it that way, right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
And then obviously it's famous for the morphing sequence at
the end, which people like to talk about, which still
looks great. It looks still holds up today. I think
one of the images that always stands out to me
is the two babies, the white baby and the black
baby sitting on on the earth.

Speaker 3 (01:07:18):
That's come on.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
And again so at the end, you know, then the
panther sequence and everything right, and of course the following day,
what does the media choose to focus on? Not the
two babies sitting on the earth, not all that, you know,
they're like, oh man, he hit a car?

Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
How dare you? You know?

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
You're like, okay, well you got you guys are going
to have your way with what like how do you
miss the four minutes before that?

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
Right? You know? And in the I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
I think they removed it digitally and later at some
point down the line. But it was also him smashing
like at racial slurs. I think Swastika's things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Because if you're gonna censor something, that's definitely what you
should say.

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):
Right exactly censer what all the aggression is actually towards?
What do you have? At number five?

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Another one that was a big TV premiere at that time,
and it's also from The Dangerous LP remember the time,
that whole thing and for me, if you if you
watch the very long version of it where uh Eddie
Murphy brings in all the people to entertain him, and
and it's very it's hilarious how they all keep getting

(01:08:32):
taken out of commission for lack of a better term. Uh,
and then Michael just comes in and is not concerned
with entertaining Eddie Murphy at all. He's way more concerned
with stealing his woman. And I think the uh, the
dance sequence in that is so underrated, like the group
because almost every MJ's videos at least at some point

(01:08:54):
is going to have a group dance video thing. Yeah,
of course, I think the dance in that is so
to rate it. I think he worked in like very
common Egyptian imagery into his dancing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
That was awesome, I agree. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Choreographed by Fatima Robinson. No relation, right, yeah, yeah, I
believe it or not. No, And I'm one of his
more one of his most star studed videos as well
with Emon and obviously Eddie Murphy, Magic Johnson, and et
cetera in that video directed by John Singleton.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
That's the other thing. A lot of these videos were
directed by like Martin Scorsese and like Spike Lee and
like you, like real filmmakers, not just whoever. Happened to
your transition from commercials to music videos or something.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Yeah, it doesn't count as a music video in my book.
But the Disney Tian that he had with Captain EO,
it's like yes, it's like okay, so who's working on
that again? Well?

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Uh Popola? Oh yeah? And who else? Lucas? Oh yeah?
Who else?

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
Landis?

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Oh oh? Just those three guys. That's the only three
you could drum up, you know, sorrying?

Speaker 3 (01:10:04):
Who again? Who's co starring? Oh? Angelica Houston? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
Like people, there's a phrase people always say all the time,
this generation is Michael Jackson. There ain't no such thing.
There ain't nobody who's going to accomplish a fourth of
what that guy like you said, like ohen, who's starring
in it?

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
Well? Just Angelic then? Why right?

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Speaking of the the Michael Jackson estate, where is like
any home video release of Captain EO? Like a lot
of these things you could see on YouTube, but it's
crappy quality, Like give me a four K of like
some of these things that are inaccessible at home.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
Yep. I would do for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
After he passed, they brought it back at Disney like
it was back in the parks, and I thought for
sure when they uh had when it when it ran
its course again and they and they took it back
out of the parks.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
I thought for sure there'd be a home release of it,
but no, right that would make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
Michael Jackson Estate is the epitome of this is why
we can't have nice things?

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
Yeah, just very much so.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
My number five, I have Earth Song, which we referenced
earlier for my for my rankings, I was trying to
go with ones like it was hard. It's hard for
me obviously with Michael Jackson to separate the the video
from the song. And like some of the songs that
I would listen re listen to the most might not
necessarily have as strong of videos as you know, other

(01:11:30):
other songs on on. Yeah, So with Earth Song, I
think is a great example to like to listen to.
I do listen to it often, but the video is
makes it so much stronger, Like the power in that
song is even more so in the video. Just very
powerful imagery. There's you know, animals and and people, you know,

(01:11:52):
getting people who've lost their lives in war and like
landscapes destroyed, and then there's Michael Jackson, Like especially when
you get towards the end and he's like holding onto
the trees. And this is another video that I don't
think I saw when it came out. It was years
later when they would do like's a ormous hit all
over Planet Earth? Yeah, stept four America.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
Yeah, Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
I think it's one of those that I sort of
found later where they would do like, you know, a
special or whatever about Michael Jackson's career and you'd see
like one shot from this video and I'd.

Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
Be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what is that? Back it up?
Where was that? I didn't see that on MTV in
the in the mid nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
That's how I came in the Ghosts actually was I
can't remember. Somewhere along the line I saw something where
there was and I was like, wait, what was that?

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, So people definitely need to search out
Earth Song. I think that is an incredible video, and
it's also I think a nice companion piece Slash like
others the other side of the coin for something like
Heal the World, where it's him being being inspiring and

(01:13:01):
trying to get a call to action, and this is
just him just like raging out.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
What about it? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Yeah, it's an amazing song. So I was like, well,
that's going on there? What did you have at number four?
Number four is cheating because there's two videos for this song,
and I'm entering both at number four. They don't care
about us, and I don't care which version, the Brazil
version or the prison version. I like both versions equally.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
They both say they both interpret the song in completely
different ways, which I think is incredible because that song
itself is very, very pointed, and then to come up
with two different visuals for the song to give it
two completely different interpretations, I think is amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:13:43):
I like both of them just the same.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Yeah, it's an incredible song and videos both directed by
Spike Lee.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
We should mention.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
Yeah, yeah, you know Spike Lee heard of him?

Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
Yeah no, yeah, you may have never heard of him,
but he's been yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
My number four had leave Me Alone, which I've already
touched on, and I was like, well that's you know,
you're trying to touch your bases. You like, what did
Michael Jackson stand for? He was very outspoken towards the press.
He was very environmentally aware and conscious and trying to
spread that message as well. So I was like I
was trying to work in some of his sort of

(01:14:22):
core themes into my ranking as well. What did you
have at number three?

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
We've discussed this to a certain extent, but Smooth Criminal
comes in, and actually it's funny. Well, I know we'll
get there. My two in my one are probably no
one else's number two and number one. I'm really curious. Yeah,
but neither of them are thriller. I'll put it that way.
I don't I don't mind thriller, but it's not in
my top. But Smooth Criminal is at number three for me,
and that's because of what we talked about earlier. Like,

(01:14:48):
you know, one of the things you have to remember
about the Bad Era is what else was going on
in music at the time. And I don't even like
the term hair metal. I'm an enormous fan of that genre.
I don't like that term, but everyone knows that that's
what was going on at that time. So your warrant, poison,
skid Row, you know, Tesla, all that stuff was that's

(01:15:09):
what was happening on MTV, And so you have, like
MTV is loaded with young white guys with a hair
down past their shoulders, all of them in leather and
all of them singing about women or whatever. And then
the only video playing on MTV is this twenty minute
gangster piece from you know, a Black Gentleman and completely

(01:15:34):
different on every single level than everything else that was
going on on the channel the other twenty three hours
of the day. Now, it's just it's just stunning to me.
And then of course, I mean, like, if if aliens
came down to Earth and asked, you know, like what
we need to know more about Michael Jackson, I would
show them the Lean, you know, like, be like, this

(01:15:54):
is the finest of our offerings. One time this guy
did the lean, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
Yeah, exactly. No, well we'll get there. I'm not We're
not done with Smith. Criminal number three. I have scream
Michael Jackson coming off again, the mission statement of History.
It's a it's a primal scream that follows all the
everything he was dealing with leading up to the release
of this album, his one and only collaboration with his

(01:16:22):
sister Janet Jackson, who again was also at kind of
around the height of her powers around that time. One
of the most expensive videos ever made. Looks incredible, The
choreography is incredible, is just raw motion on display from
both of them, and also just the novelty of seeing
these two hugely popular entertainers together on screen inhabiting the
same space. I was like, well, I gotta I gotta

(01:16:45):
squeeze scream in there.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
Funny when you grew up in the world the way
it was. I mean, of course, you know Janet and
Michael are brother and sister, but at the time, you
never you wouldn't equate it constant, like when you saw
Jana Jackson a video or her go show, you wouldn't
just go, oh, that's Michael Jackson's sister, like you would
think of her Jackson Jackson. And in that video was
the was one of the first times where I was like,

(01:17:08):
holy crap, they they're siblings, like you know, like I
never put that together. Really, It's like how much talent
do you need one family?

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
Come on? Exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:17:16):
It would be like, now to your equivalent, there is
no to your point, there is no equivalent to Michael Jackson.
But like be like what I now you know Taylor
Swift and Lady Gaga like they were sisters the whole
time or something like they were like the two biggest
stars Beyonce or something I don't know, no, I know, yeah,
it's it's it is funny.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
What did you have at number two? Okay at number two?

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
And again I don't think anybody would put this up
in there top, but beat It for me is a
huge thing because first of all, it's the it's the
first song I ever heard by him.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
But the video is so iconic.

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
Like I again, when I saw that in the very
infancy of MTV, it was so much such a higher
bar than anything else on the channel. Everything else on
the channel was mostly videotaped one camera affairs for the artists,

(01:18:14):
you know, whoever the cars or whomever to be standing
in one spot doing their song, you know, and then like,
here's Michael Jackson with this whole Hollywood production and this huge,
huge story in a in a three and a half
minute song about these two gangs, and how like you know,
in the in the messaging behind it, and I think

(01:18:35):
that the beat at Jacket, I think it's just iconic,
and you know, the whole thing is just incredible. And
one one of my favorite stories about it is that
legendarily Michael invited actual gang members to the set because
he was like, well, the people kept saying no, you

(01:18:56):
don't understand, like these guys will kill each other, Like
we can't have these gangs on set. And Michael was like, yeah,
but when they get here, we'll just explain it to
them that, like they shouldn't be fighting anymore, right, Yeah,
And everybody was like, no, but in the film there
are in the short film, there are actually actual gang

(01:19:17):
members in there in the film, because he was just like, yeah,
but when they get here.

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
We'll just tell them to be nice. You know that's great? Well, yeah,
I love it. I absolutely love that film.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
People underestimate the impact that beat it, but also Billy
Jean had on essentially the invention of the music video.
And then you know, my number two thriller, I think
sort of crystallize that as these are not just stand
in front of a camera, you know. I it was

(01:19:50):
in early contention, I was considering something like rock with You,
because this is just Michael Jackson. Yeah, this is Michael
Jackson a microphone, a camera, some in a shiny outfit,
and yet he's so magnetic that I was almost like,
do I put that in my six Like I considered
it for a minute.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Then I well know I had the exact same thought
that's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's he the Thriller album and by the
extension those two leading into the Thriller video, it changed
the core.

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
It changed the art form completely.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
Like it it created the modern music video and taught
artists that you don't have to just it's not just
like a concert performance. There's a lot more intentionality and
storytelling and it you can dig into your music, your
messaging and sort of shape your career so much through
the visual side of it that it's like, it's hard

(01:20:45):
to imagine music now without that sort of trickle down
effect that that had.

Speaker 2 (01:20:51):
Absolutely, and I would say even though obviously music video
by and large is no longer all that needed with
with the way that things have gone, I know a
lot of us still do. But what you notice now
is a lot of artists will do like visual companions
to their album.

Speaker 3 (01:21:08):
Which is it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
It never have been a thing even remotely. No one
else would have even remotely thought of that unless Michael
Jackson had done it first.

Speaker 1 (01:21:16):
Right, Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, I mean and even you know,
we were mentioning some of the home video releases there
there is the dangerous the short films where he has
basically a short film for I think pretty much every
track on that album.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
More or less given. Is it all of them?

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Or is like it's like it's maybe one or two,
it's most of them. Yeah, It's like, yeah, so he
kind of had that covered already. What did you have
a number one? I'm excited to hear that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
Okay, So I don't think anybody would pick this one
for me, but the way you make me feel, I
think the style in this video is off the charts.
The way that it starts where he's standing there and
she walks by him, and he looks like, are you
hidding me? Like you you really just want you know?

(01:22:02):
And the hey, you know, and he walks over to her,
and then the a cappella you knocked me off on
my feet, you know, and that kicks in. I mean,
holy cow, that whole it's it's there's so much stop
and again another completely like if you look at the
Bad era alone, his look in the Bad video, his

(01:22:25):
look in Dirty Diana is looking in Smooth Criminal is
looking this, They're all completely different. And I would argue
no one on planet Earth could just unbutton a blue
shirt and have people be like and have people be like, dang,
you know, but like he's just standing there in black
pants in a regular blue button down shirt and he
just makes it look cool.

Speaker 3 (01:22:45):
Yeah. Yeah, now that's a great that's a great pick.

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):
I just I don't think anybody, I don't think it's
anyone else's vorit MJ video. But and of course, if
you ask me this again tomorrow, I'm probably gonna have
the whole and everything. But I just I have always
loved the intro to that video and then when it
kicks off off just the whole the whole way. It's
done all fun and everything, and I like that the
woman is empowered in the video as well. Like again,
at the time that came out, the women were not

(01:23:08):
empowered in any other video on MTV. And that woman
in that video, he's very much in pursuit of her.
It's not just oh, I'm a big deal and you're
gonna come to me. He's got to prove that he's
you know, that he's good enough for her or that
she should be attracted to him.

Speaker 3 (01:23:23):
And again, no one else was doing that type of messaging.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Yeah, yeah, very true, very true. That's a great one.
That was definitely one I considered as well, might my
number one. I do have Smooth Criminal right, which again
I feel like the popular choice is thriller. As you
sort of mentioned earlier, I prefer the Smooth Criminal the
night obviously the full length. I can't stand that sped

(01:23:47):
up monstrosity also have it's it's upsetting.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
It's like they let a child at the editing software.
They were like, I don't know, do this The kid
just hit like skip frames or something, right, Yeah, stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:24:02):
Especially when the pacing in that is so deliberate. The
coin goes across into the jukebox. It's I have been
I have been known to wear Fedora's and I feel
like it started because of this.

Speaker 3 (01:24:17):
Criminal.

Speaker 1 (01:24:17):
It's it is so much to do with his style
in this video, the the choreography that, like we mentioned,
when the lights go down there like heny are you
O okay? And it builds up again, which is such
a way to to take things down and then build
it up stronger than before. Builds up I think, builds
up into the lean.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
And one other thing too, is and this bums me
out so much because I'm such a music collector. There
is an extra line in the video version of Smooth
Criminal that's not on the album, there's in the second verse,
it starts with an extra line that's not on the
album version of the song, and you cannot get that

(01:25:01):
version anywhere except for the video. It does not exist
on a cassette single, on a seven inch single, on
a twelve inch reew weeks. I have been all over
the world looking for this. It does not exist, and
it's it's so minor. It's it's one extra line that
starts the second verse instead of yeah, and the literally
the only place to hear it is in the video

(01:25:23):
version of the And I don't even know why that
why that line was cut from the from the album
or anything, I don't know. I mean, there's other things
in the video that I understand why they're done. Like,
for example, there's when he's up in the by the
pool table and stuff, there's like a instr it breaks
out to just an instrumental version of the song, so
you can hear like what's going on in him breaking

(01:25:43):
the ball and all that stuff. So I understand that stuff,
But like, I don't understand why there's one extra line
in the because it doesn't the line doesn't even have
to do with the narrative of the video or anything.
It's but it bums me out to no end that
you cannot just let like it's not on streaming, it's
never been on any release like they could. They could
release that is just that song as a seven inch

(01:26:04):
with that line, and I would pay like twenty five
dollars for it because it's always bummed me out that
I can't get that person.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
But yeah, yeah, it's it's as pitch perfect as an
MG video has ever been in my opinion, Like the
it's it's also very playful. There's so much like he
goes up there, he's like breaking up a fight, he's
flipping the guy with the knife. He's like briefly romancing
a girl. Then he's you know, the guy is sneaking

(01:26:31):
up on him. He takes the gun out and shoots him.
He goes very cartoon style through the wall. And then
and then Michael dances over and it's like puts his
hat down and like goes shakesa like you're at it
so good. Then the shot that shot when he goes
right into when he's like you've been hit by a
smooth and the camera from above smooth criminal into it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
I told my wife that, you know, we live in
a very suburban area. But I said, if we ever
end up living in any sort of high rise, when
he takes the fire escape thing, and he like, yeah,
does this like dancing? I told her, I said, if
we ever lived that, I'm going to exit the house
that way every single time.

Speaker 3 (01:27:10):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
The other shot that I love, and this is so tiny,
but I think it's after the whole lean and everything,
and he he's got full control of the situation now
because he's done everything you just said. He's taken care
of all the bad people in there, and now he's
got everybody in the room out inside. And he looks
up and you can see the kids looking down from
outside looking at and he just quickly like winks at

(01:27:34):
him and nods his hat, like like I got this.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
I love that shot of him. I think that's so cool.

Speaker 1 (01:27:40):
Yeah, it's it's incredible. It's like to the point that
we're talking about it, and now, especially now that you
mentioned that extra line, and I'm like, I need to
make sure I double check what Russ is saying, because
now I want to rewatch it again. It's in a
career that is littered with an embarrassment of riches. When
it comes to his short films, his music videos, it

(01:28:02):
again feels reductive to call these music videos because there's
so much artistry, style, and intentionality behind it that it's
not just like, oh, let's just matter it together, we'll
shoot it in a day or two.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
It's like there's a lot, there's a lot more involved here,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
Funny that, Yeah, this goes way back to what you
were talking about earlier, with like the the self res
reverential or the self celebration. Kurt Loader used to constantly
make fun of the fact that Michael Jackson would call
his videos short films. Like Kurt Loader would just be like,
oh yeah, oh I'm sorry short films, you know, which.
I love Kurt Loader, but it used to crack me up.
I was smug giving about MJ. But like, my thing is,

(01:28:41):
Michael was like, no, these literally are short films. Though
it's not like he was just making music videos like
everyone else was, and he's like, well, you have to
call mine short films, Like no, he was literally making
short films. Like the names we talked about earlier, you know,
like like the names that you're using to make these
these are short films.

Speaker 3 (01:28:58):
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
Did you have any honorable mentions that you wanted to
run out because I had lot all of.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
The rest of them, Like, yeah, I told Lauren the
first thing this morning when I when you said the six,
I was like, uh, can I just say all of
it is? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:20):
I mean there's like I I can't even think of,
Like there's like one like I don't love the uh
visual representation for uh human nature, Like that's kind of
like a really cheaply made stop motion thing that obviously
the record label did without you know, him being involved.

Speaker 3 (01:29:37):
I'm guessing, uh, but like that's about the only one
I can think of.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
I think I think he spent all of what they
would have given him for a music video budget for Thriller. Yeah,
I think that's what it is, because you know that
they had first of all, obviously Billy Geina Beat it
were all my honorable mentions. Uh, thriller is what it was.
And then the next album for Bad, we get moon
Walk Tucker, plus lots of other videos that are not
even included in this from that and I.

Speaker 2 (01:30:04):
Think is a hit and gem both as a song
and a video from Bad is a Liberian Girl. Yeah,
I love that song so much, and I think the
video is brilliant where it's every relevant star at the time,
literally everyone, if you'd started something that year, or if
you put an album out.

Speaker 3 (01:30:23):
You're in that video.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
And what I like is again Michael's messaging in that
all of these stars are all arguing with each other
over their ego. Oh no, I'm Michael called me. I'm
supposed to be the big part of this, and then
at the end of the video you find out he's
just been watching them making any ass of themselves the
whole time.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
I like, like, I just love that, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
And of course, and it's the only time ever that
weirdal ever appeared in an actual Michael Jackson video.

Speaker 3 (01:30:49):
That's true, Yeah, yeah, very true.

Speaker 1 (01:30:53):
Bad The video itself also was in my honorable mentions
Speed Demon, Childhood Remember the Time. And then normally at
the end of these episodes, I especially with the musicals
at least, I've been asking people like, oh, what would
you know if you were gonna what would you kind
of suggest to other people who have how would you
sell this this film on them?

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
One? And then two? What other films like would you recommend?
I think the easy recommend here.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
Is Ghosts because yeah, chances are nobody's seen that. If
you want to watch a less than perfect version of
it is is it is on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (01:31:27):
I mean, if it's that's the only way you can
see it. I will just watch that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
But I don't know. Again, this is well. I was
gonna say, I don't know why they do this, but
I'm talking about the Michael Jackson state, so no one
knows why everything. I will say this that around Halloween
every year, and I don't know why they take it off,
but around Halloween every year they put it up in
four K on Michael's YouTube channel. Oh interesting, So keep
an eye for that because you just it'll just appear like,

(01:31:52):
I don't know, a week before Halloween and then it's
usually on his channel for like I don't know, like
a week after Halloween. And that's far and away the
best year ever gonna see it. I mean, it looks,
it looks gorgeous. But again, they do that and don't
even tell anyone, you know, like it's insane to me.
But I always push very hard every year for that

(01:32:13):
one on because you know, everyone you know says, oh,
it's thriller season, you know, which is another thing Michael
Jackson's old season named after him exactly. But I always
tell people I'm like, listen, I know Thriller is your childhood.
I know it's nostalgic. I know it's amazing, But like,
one of these years, take a look at Ghosts also
or instead of you know, because I again, I think

(01:32:34):
the messaging and in Ghosts is something that more people
should look at. Its specific to Michael Jackson. And you know,
so every year and you'll see, because again we're friends
on social media, you will see when we get to October,
I will nearly every day I will be like.

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):
You guys should watch Ghosts today.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
Though, Yeah, directed by Stan Winston, and it's just it's
it's uh see, directed by Stan Winston, written by co
written by Stephen King, heard of him.

Speaker 3 (01:33:06):
And Micky Harris. It's also like it's another one of those.

Speaker 1 (01:33:10):
Wildly like dream collaborations that they managed to pull off,
and the effects look really cool. And and Michael, you know,
love love to transform himself and does so in this
multiple times.

Speaker 2 (01:33:23):
Yeah, it's not to be spoiler. You know he's playing uh,
the main antagonist in this too, right, Yeah, which a
lot of people don't know that like I've I've had people.
I've had people watch it and then ask them if
they thought there was anything weird about the antagonist. No,
why And I said, well that's Michael Jackson.

Speaker 1 (01:33:42):
They're like what yeah, yeah, yeah, And then there's even
footage of him like being put in the prosthetics and everything.

Speaker 2 (01:33:50):
So yeah, it's it's great stuff. My wife always a
joke about too. We're always like, oh, really, weird output
out of fancy. So then Michael Jackson had to another
example of Weirdell ripping off or Michael Jackson ripping off
Weirdel exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
Now, this was This was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:34:08):
I think one last question like how do you think
that the Moonwalker captures his legacy as an artist? Like?

Speaker 3 (01:34:15):
What? What? What do you how?

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
I guess going back to what I was saying, how
would you pitch this on someone that hasn't seen Moonwalker?
They're like, yeah, I know Michael Jackson's music. I've seen
some of the main videos, Thriller obviously among them, but
what is Moonwalker about? Because I also feel like, because
this hasn't gotten the domestic release, a lot of even
moderate to large Michael Jackson fans probably don't even know
what this that this exists right or or haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
Mm hm, well, I'll tell you what I told my
wife about it, because she had never seen it before
last week. I said, I said, what you're about to
see is a lot of really really good ideas and
uh not as much. It's not as as cohesive as
you're as you're probably used to. But and then here's
the import and part. And this is what directly answers

(01:35:02):
your question. I was like, overall, you're going to see
what Michael Jackson was about, which is I think, really
this like the whole thing, Like it's what you what
you said earlier, with the way it starts with men
and the mirrordents with come together, and then in the
middle is like, here's how I got here and you know,
and then here's what I'm at the time currently I'm

(01:35:25):
dealing with. And then also in the middle of all that,
here's this completely fantastical, far more creative thing than anyone
else is putting out in the middle of it. So
to me, it's just you know, I would tell people like,
if you want to get an idea what he was
about at that time, then this is the way to go.

Speaker 1 (01:35:44):
Yeah, and then and then casually drops in Smooth Criminal,
the best best music video, the best short film of
his career.

Speaker 3 (01:35:53):
Yeah, just like it in the middle there.

Speaker 1 (01:35:56):
Yeah, Russ, this was so much fun. I'm glad that
we were able to make this happen right on. Yeah,
thanks for coming on. Tell people where they can find
you on social media.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
Yeah, all of our social media is all just infectious
groove music. So what I just tell people is, like
whatever your social media platform is, if you just go
to Google and type in infectious groove music, you know
whatever Twitter or Facebook or whatever, it'll come up with.
All ours is the only thing out there with a
remotely similar name. It'll come back. What I tell people

(01:36:26):
is we would love it if you would come subscribe
to YouTube channel, not just to go I want a
bigger subscriber number, but the dialogue that we have with
people about trying to bring up underrated songs and hidden
gems and things like that matters more to me than anything. So,
like you know, I would prefer it if most people

(01:36:48):
just go and go to YouTube, type infectius Croup music,
hit the subscribe button. We have three videos every week,
so and there I feel like they're bite sized. There
are always like five ten minute videos, you know. And
what I always tell people is, if you subscribe to
the channel because you are a big fan of one
artist or that we've covered, you know, look into some

(01:37:11):
of the other artists that we've covered that you may
have never heard of, because I guarantee you you're you're
gonna eventually you're gonna hear something that you're like, oh wow,
I would have never known of this, you know, without
exactly that was my thing. It's just go to YouTube
type ineffects. Screwed Music a reaction every Saturday, which is uh,
I feel like the it's it's the least amount of
work for content, but it's but they're very fun to do. Yeah,

(01:37:35):
and then we have Vinyl review every week, and then
on Thursday is the one that we have the most
fun with, which is the uh the music topic videos
where we try and talk up music we think needs
more talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:37:47):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I I I love I love the channel.
I love the philosophy behind the content. Like we said
at the top of the show, I like I love
that you're trying to push the positivity and celebrating what
you love. There's enough enough negativity and hate out there
these days especially, it's like, let's just why, for what purpose?

(01:38:09):
Why add to this? We have enough of that. Let's
you're not doing yourself or anyone else any favors by
bringing everybody down, So just go support russ an infectious groove. Meanwhile,
you can find more episodes like this wherever you get
your podcast in on crookedtable dot com, show your support
on Patreon at patreon dot com, slash crookeet Table, or

(01:38:31):
if you want to keep up with us on social media,
that'll be at crookeet Table, on Blue Sky, Instagram and threads.
We'll be back next episode with the final installment of
our movie musical series. But for now, that's a wrap
on another Cricket Table production. Keep watching, everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:38:51):
This has been a production of Crooked Table dot com.
All right, reserve

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Lok

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