One Shot: Andor S2 Spoiler Review with Eric Francisco of Esquire & Jessica McNair of Tales of the Force

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Right.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Oh, hello there, Internet, Welcome to a special edition of
Comic Cast. I'm Michael Carrol alongside Jong Lee Jong. How
are you?

Speaker 1 (00:57):
I'm doing well? My man? How are you?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
I'm good. I'm doing very well. Actually today because one,
we're talking and Or Season two, our full spoiler review
of the season. But it's not just us. We're joined
by two newcomers to the podcast, joining us today, Eric
Francisco of Esquire Eric, how are you?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
I'm doing wonderful. Thank you guys so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Excited to have you. And we also are joined by
Jessica McNair of the Tales of the Force podcast, Jessica,
how are you?

Speaker 4 (01:26):
Hello? Hello, I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm doing excellent. Thank you both so much for joining
us today on the podcast. And like I said, this
is all about and Or Season two reviews. So for
folks that are listening, if you haven't watched the season,
maybe tune away because that's all it's going to be.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Spoiler alert, spoiler alert, spoiler alert.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
I want to start off with y'all and introducing you
all to our listeners that maybe don't know your work
or don't know who you are, Jessica. Let's start with
you first off, where can people find you online? And
what is the Tales of the Force podcast?

Speaker 5 (02:08):
So you can find me on Instagram, threads and the
good old clock act TikTok and it's all Tales of
the Force. And my podcast is about telling the fans
stories within the Star Wars fandom. So it's a little
bit different than some other other things, which I love

(02:32):
all the other other podcasts and all the work that
everyone else is doing, but mine's a little bit different
and focuses on the fans' personal stories, so kind of
what resonates with them, why they love it, how it's
helped them in life, especially when I started last year.
During this month we focus it focused on the mental

(02:55):
health aspects, so how people how it helped them with
their mental health and that sort of thing. So that's
that's kind of what I do over at Tells of
the Forest have taken a little bit of a break,
but we'll be coming back soon and I'm really excited
about that.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
That's awesome. That's awesome, so folks check it out. Tales
of the Force podcast available in most podcast apps right.

Speaker 5 (03:18):
Yes, it is all the all The audio versions are
pretty much anywhere you listen to podcasts, and then I
do have the video versions on the YouTube channel and
that's also on your Tales of the Force.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Awesome. So subscribe today people, Yes, you could also check
out just check out our work on social media as well.
For for folks that don't know you, Eric, what do
you do? What exactly do you do at Esquire?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Well? Hold on, this is an indoor podcast. I thought
when you said Star Wars, I thought this was for
all mankind, the podcast about this, the show about the
space rays. Oh man, I'm able to be here. No,
so I got it back up. No, I'm kidding. Hi. Yes,
I'm the Associate Entertainment editor at Esquire Magazine. Before here,

(04:10):
I was a senior staff writer at Inverse dot com,
covering shows and media like Star Wars, like Marvel, like DC,
like all the awesome, cool franchises and awesome media that
pop culture that we all love. So yeah, now I'm
working as an associate entertainment editor kind of doing the
same thing at Esquire, covering shows like Star Wars and

(04:30):
the Last of Us and a lot of other cool
things coming down the pipeline. I think of it as
being like, if we meet at a party, let's talk
about all the cool TV shows and movies and video
games that we're all obsessing with. That's what I do
at Esquire. I'm helping out the entertainment section. I in fact,
I can't reveal anything right now, but I did some
really cool interviews around and or that are publishing very

(04:53):
very soon on Esquire. So I guess where to find
me is on esquire dot com. Social media. You can
also follow me, but please also don't because I think
we all need to be off social media. But I
am on Blue Sky at Eric Francisco twenty four, same
handle on Twitter slash x, but I try not to
use that site anymore. And yeah, that's that's that's where

(05:16):
I am. That's where we can follow me, but please
don't because we should all be offline.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
As we're doing a podcast online.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
There's a middle ground here. Well, again, Eric, thank you
so much, and again Jessica, thank you all both so
much for taking the time to join John and I
and I like what you said there at the end,
Eric about you know, just getting together talking about your shows,
because that's kind of what Comcast is. I think, I
don't know about you, John, But I think that's kind
of what we do. That's that's all our conversations are, basically.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Bro, I've been waiting a month to talk about this.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
He's been waiting so long, he's been Just to.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Give you guys a quick context, we Michael had something
planned special for and Or, and so we were like, oh,
let's you know, let's save it before the end because
they were releasing it in three episode pieces I guess
quarterly in quarters, uh, and so I say, let's do it.
And then Last of Us. We were doing Last of
Us every week, so time gets tight, and as you

(06:17):
continue to watch it weekly these three episodes, you're just
I don't know for about everybody else, but I'm just
like this, this is this is s tier television. This
is one of the best things I've ever seen on TV.
This is the best well, I guess we'll get into this,
but well, this is the this is my favorite Star
Wars content ever. Like the just the build up to

(06:39):
from season one to two and then going seamlessly from
the last episode of season two into uh into Rogue one.
It's just it's just it's a chef's kiss. But but yeah,
I'm stoked.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
He's been n so let's not like hold off too
much longer. But I will say you can follow us
on social media. I'm at producer Mike nine seventy five,
I'm at One Punch, and of course, rate, review, share,
or subscribe to this podcast and all your favorite podcast
platforms five stars. That'd be cool. We would really appreciate it.
You can also listen to a version of this podcast
on ESPN ninety seven to five and ninety two to

(07:14):
five Wednesday nights at eight pm, and then coming up
in June, June twenty through the twenty second Comic Blues
is happening and guess what, We're back. Comiccast will be
podcasting live from Comic Palooza. Don't know schedule or anything
like that just yet, but stay tuned. We'll have more
info as we get closer. All right, johng, I don't
want to hold you back anymore, so go ahead. Well,

(07:34):
I assume you really liked and or yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
I mean you could say that, you know, you know,
I'm sure Francisco, you've covered this. We're through May, and
I feel like there's a lot of good TV out there,
especially this year, and me and Michael were talking about this.
Last year, I felt like was very strong for TV two.
I think at this point we had Showgun, and I
think Showgun at the end of last year it's still

(08:01):
with my number one show of the year. And I
told Michael, I was like, man, it's gonna be very
hard year to beat. And then the Pit came out,
and then Michael put me on the pit. I was
a few episodes behind and that came out, and I
was like, oh, okay, I think this is going off
to a good year. Daredevil was, you know, I think

(08:21):
Dared Devil's okay. I think it was like mid eighties
if we had to grade it. And then Last of
Us a little better than Daredevil, and then and Or
at the around the same time, And man, I don't
know if you can beat this start to a year
like this. Almost halfway through this year, and I think
a lot of it is on the backs of and

(08:42):
Or in the Pit and it's those these two and
even I guess, well Last of Us They're going to
be competing for some Emmys. But man, I've enjoyed this
so much and I and I wish that Disney and
Lucasfilms would do War like this where they're building on
top of a story and giving us much more rich

(09:06):
background to what was already one of my favorite Star
Wars movies, which I think it's maybe a little controversial.
Rogue one was refreshing. It was very It was very
different because it didn't focus on the actual Jedi part
of the Resistance, and I really enjoyed it. And Michael
put me on that one too. I was a year
or two late behind that. Yeah, yeah, and I thought

(09:29):
it was It was fantastic. And after season one of
and H, I was like, oh, it just makes you
appreciate Rogue going even more. And I didn't know if
season two could live up to season one, and I
think they're about the same, and I think in certain
aspects season one had some great, great moments and season
two had some fantastic moments, and I just I don't know,

(09:54):
speaking truthfully, if aside from Game of Thrones and maybe
Breaking Bad, I can't imagine I can't remember two seasons
of a show that were this this great m and
I just I am in love with and Or and
everything that's doing over there, and I just hope to
God that they do more stuff like this.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
I hope so as well. I mean, if we're talking
about just the grand scheme of TV right now, yes,
there's other great stuff out there. With the rehearsal the studio.
Your Friends and Neighbors is kind of an underrated show
right now, but I think that that's also going to
get some buzz later on. But even with all this
great TV, and Or has been phenomenal, I think I
had a bit of a rocky start season two. I

(10:35):
think I was dumb. I might just chalk that up
to just getting re oriented to the story again and
also wrapping my head around the aforementioned unique structure. The
I question a lot about that approach. Creatively, I think
it was fantastic. I think creatively they did the I
think creatively it was so fascinating, and they did so

(10:57):
well with that using the unique timeframe, I guess, I
guess just for the viewer, just so well aware, it's
each batch of three episodes is a single year, or
encompasses a stretch of time in and Or, and every
time you go to the next three episodes, it's a
whole new year. And then the whole idea is that
you're leading up to, like the last couple of years,

(11:19):
until Rogue one. You're meant to go from literally episode
twelve of and Or season two to Rogue one. Like
that's how seemlessly it moves. And you can see that
in the very last few minutes of and Or. There's
a lot of other things that I questioned about that
approach though, Like they could have milked the conversation a
lot longer if they just did a normal conventional release

(11:40):
of a weekly episode and have twelve weeks of and
Or instead of what I can't do math right now
for six weeks of and Or for four weeks. Yeah,
well that's little Like they could have dominated the conversation
a little bit more, given how the quality of and
Or was fantastic. But since it was written as three
per I guess releasing it as three per is how

(12:00):
they did it. Maybe they could have done it in
the during the week, like Monday, Wednesday, Friday. They could
have done a fun drop like that. But and I
will say, as a journalist, kind of a nightmare to
do weekly recaps, just knowing that like every Tuesday we
have to binge two or three episodes, you know, or
spread out the the the coverage amongst amongst the team

(12:23):
and trying to figure out like how to trying to
figure out the SEO on it, But that's like inside
baseball stuff. As as a consumer, I think it was
great to have three episodes to devour over the week,
and you know, you can binge it if you want,
or you can you can take your time with it.
And again, creatively, I think I think it was a
wonderful approach. Yeah, plus all around, I do no, you're good.

Speaker 2 (12:47):
I do want to throw in since we were talking
about shows Adolescents one of the top two shows of
the year as well, But I do want to know, Jessica,
did you feel like with Erica and Jong were you
as high on and Or as as they are, And
then what did you think of the structure of releasing
three episodes each week?

Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yeah, I love and Or.

Speaker 5 (13:04):
I loved the first season and I was really excited
to come back to the second. The structure was interesting
for me too. I do feel like it is it
is hard for people that are covering it, whether it's
a podcast or a journalist or different things like that,
because it is a lot in a week at one time,
and there's a lot of pressure to get things out

(13:25):
obviously as quickly as possible, and so there's a lot
to consume and think about and watch and try to
get your thoughts out there. But for just people sitting
at home and watching it, I do think it was
a good different take on how to release media, because

(13:49):
you know, you do have more time throughout the week
to sit back and watch it and process it, and
you don't have to watch it all at one time.
I watched it all at one time because I wanted
to know what was going on, and I think that
kind of shows how well it was done and it
was such good television because I didn't want to stop
watching it. I wanted to watch all three, you know,

(14:10):
back to back every.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
Week, and it was a little interesting. I think the
year jumps in between. I do think they.

Speaker 5 (14:18):
Did provide that information kind of ahead of time, so
that people could kind of prepare themselves in a way
for a little bit of a different format and know
ahead of time that there was going to be these
jumps and it was going to lead right into Rogue one.
I think if they didn't give that as far in

(14:39):
advance as they did and kind of let people know
that that's how the setup of the show is going
to be. I think that would be kind of confusing
for people, especially kind of just like your average viewer
of even just Star Wars. You know, it gets to
be a lot. There's a lot, there's a lot of shows,
a lot of movies, and I think that can be
difficult for people that aren't you know, reading the books

(15:03):
and following along with the timeline and you know, maybe
into the comics, like any aspect of it.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
It's a lot.

Speaker 5 (15:10):
It's getting to be a lot of things, and so
people trying to be like, where does this fit in?

Speaker 4 (15:16):
You know?

Speaker 5 (15:16):
I think specifically like my parents, like they're in their seventies,
they are like og Star Wars fans. They watched it
when they came out, and they're always asking me when
they watch one of the new shows, like hey, where
is this you know in.

Speaker 4 (15:28):
The timeline and that sort of thing.

Speaker 5 (15:30):
So I am glad that they gave people a fair
amount of warning of how the show was going to
be set up, so that people could kind of see
that and it isn't that's a particular place. It's really
easy to see where it fits in. So's that's been
good too, I think, But overall, just super impressed with

(15:51):
the show.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
I have not watched as much.

Speaker 5 (15:54):
TV this year as I normally do, so this has
been definitely a highlight for me to watch this, and
I'm already wanting to rewatch it, honestly. So those are
kind of my overall thoughts and all of that, And.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
I'm glad you brought up rewatching it because, you know,
kind of tying in with the structure of this season.
I watched the first three episodes when they came out,
and I liked it. And of course, the first three
episodes are about you know, Cassie and stealing the ship
from the Imperial base and then getting stuck on I

(16:28):
believe it's Yavin early on, and we don't know that
until the end when he eventually leaves, and you know,
being stuck with the rebels, and then you have the
stuff with man Mathma and the marriage with Scolden's son
and her daughter. You know, you're mixing all these different things,
and then the Imperials they're planning. It was a lot

(16:51):
to kind of grasp, and I think you said it, Eric,
where it was like getting adjusted to this structure and
getting adjusted to this new form and getting adjusted to
and or storytelling yet again. Yeah, and I didn't appreciate.
I think I didn't appreciate those first three episodes like
I liked them, but it was after I rewatched them

(17:11):
and I was like, oh, this is so much more
than I made it out to be because my my
nerd brain went to Cassian is basically like playing Halo
the first one in Blood Gulch, where it's a box
canyon and you're just stuck on the other side and
people are pot shotting at each other and everything. But
it's it's so interesting rewatching it because of the of

(17:35):
intertwining that with the imperials where they're planning things, so
like just in this fancy office they have all this
fancy food while the rebels are scrounging for melons and
bars that maybe have mold on them, and just the
intertwining of that where there isn't a uniform leadership in

(17:56):
this instance, but there is this structure that the imperials
have and that that's what the rebels are going against.
And I just appreciated that more on the second viewing
than I did on the first viewing. I don't know,
but yeah, no, no, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Eric, I just want to say quickly, good shout out.
I did not realize how much Red Blue, how much
the first two episodes felt like Red versus Blue they did. Yeah,
I did not realize. I was trying to figure out, like,
this kind of feels familiar, but what does this feel like?
You saying that, like casting is basically in the middle
of Halo, I'm like, oh, it's Red versus Blue, the Blues,

(18:33):
and yeah, and it's just as funny and just as
sometimes tragic too, and and everything. Anyway, Sorry, I just
want to shout out and shout.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Out that why are we here? That's that's what I
think of.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
That.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
And I know, Michael, you mentioned, you mentioned the imperial
structure and all that stuff, and by the end of
the season we see a reason why, Like there's a flaw.
There's a giant flaw in that system. And even if
you're right in your one of those these imperial officers,
when you're right, you're you're still punished. It's just, uh,
it it's it's it's definitely a flawn in their system.

(19:10):
Because you know, DJ was right, she just went outside
of her the bounds of her duty and it didn't
matter and she just got she got imprisoned. Uh, and
uh that was one of the things that the rebels
saw in in the in their structure, and they fully
took advantage of it. And you know, they they they
played behind the eight ball a lot of times, but

(19:30):
they use that to their advantage. And they just you know,
by the end of I guess you would say Rogue one,
they technically they went, they lose, but they technically win
because they get the plans of the Death Star. But yeah,
I h they fully exploit that system and and and
Ruthan being who he is, being this paranoid person, and

(19:51):
and you know, having his paid bases covered, uh, you
know ten times over. You know, it's to their advantage
as well. So and I think one of the things
that this show does, and you see it at the
very end of it, is the is just the attention
to detail something that they do with almost every single character.
It's like they me and Michael talk about this all

(20:13):
the time. What is there's I feel like when you
give characters just black and white personalities and and just
the way that they're written is just it's just I
don't it's bad TV. And uh, speaking of Halo, bad television. No,
But but I like the intricacies of every single character,

(20:34):
the reasons why they do the things that they do.
Even even Clia and Luthan they had, you know, they
had ideology that kind of they aligned for most of
the part, but you know they kind of clashed near
the end. And one character that I absolutely thought I
didn't enjoy as well in season one was serial and

(20:56):
season two is he was amazing. I love that character,
and so like, I think the intricacies of every single
character that like this this team and Tony Gilroy have
written and put together is just it's is so so
well done.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
What a maneuver that they made us care about a
couple of fascists, like they made us care about Cyril
and Dedra. Something I want to call out too, like
this unique three three episode structure, one year structure. Is
that Tony Gilroy said in an interview somewhere, and I
wish I could cite it right now, quote, you know,
point to where he said it. But he said that

(21:32):
the show would mine a lot of its dramatic effect
based on the things that you also don't see. You
have to color by coloring in the lines yourself between,
you know, with what happens in between the years. That's
where the show gets a lot of its dramatic theft. So,
for example, we're seeing Didra and Cyril getting together in
the first three episodes, and then suddenly an episode before,

(21:53):
we're getting this thing from our mother being like you
you left behind the world one good thing. Uh, you
know his mother, and we're like, oh my god, they
broke up. What happened? And we're asking ourselves this question,
only for us to realize that they're secretly working together.
But that's a different story. The fact that, like you're
feeling that initial shock of like, oh my god, they
broke up, and you're saying that about these two villains. Ostensibly,

(22:17):
that's a lot of where The Indoor season two got
a lot of its juice. And I have to agree
with Tony Gilroy, they did a very good job making
use of the negative space. The things you don't see
matter just as much as the things you do see,
because what you are seeing is informed by the fact
that a lot of story is happening without you seeing it.
And you don't have to see everything. You don't have
to see every minute of these characters' lives. You can

(22:39):
color you're smart enough to color in the lines yourself,
and yeah, you saw it a lot and throughout season two.

Speaker 5 (22:46):
Yeah, And that's that's good storytelling to me too, because like,
I don't think you should have to give your audience everything,
you know, I think you should allow room for people
to kind of question things and wonder why are the
way that they are, because that not only is going
to make people want more of the story, but it

(23:06):
also gives the audience room to kind of make it
their own a little bit, which can get into dangerous
territory because then you get people that have like their
fan theories and their thoughts, and then when those don't happen,
people get really upset. But I think there is kind
of a beauty to that where there is room to
fill in those gaps, because you know, I mean, I

(23:27):
feel like people watching this, you would think we should
be able to look at those gaps and learn in
our minds like what happened, you know, and kind of
fill in that blank.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
And I think that's good storytelling.

Speaker 5 (23:40):
Some people might think that that's, you know, a little
boring where they want all of the answers all, you know,
spoon fed everything, and that's to me, that just takes
away kind of the joy of watching something and the
wonder of wondering what's going to happen next or what happened.

Speaker 4 (23:58):
We don't have to have all those blanks filled in that.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
That's not the point of telling stories. Sometimes some of
the best ones are a little bit open ended and
up for interpretation.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
So I don't know.

Speaker 5 (24:10):
I love the tension in it and how there is
so much tension, and you feel tension as you're watching
it because you know, like you guys were saying, you're
are we rooting for these people?

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Like are we going why did they break up? What happened?
You know? And we know they're the bad guys.

Speaker 5 (24:25):
And there was so much time through the season that
I really wanted him to have a realization of what
was going on and change his mind and flip sides,
you know.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
And that's not something I felt for a season. I
was like, get rid of this guy already. So and
so he's a.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Little wordly and creepy at first, and who.

Speaker 5 (24:46):
I'm like, oh, you're one of those Okay, this is annoying.
I have to do enough of this in real life.
So can we can we move on from this character now?

Speaker 1 (24:55):
But do you think if he didn't see Cassian on
on Gorman. Do you think that there was a chance
that he would have flipped because once he saw Cassie
and just I'm guessing he just saw like his just
his mind just went white and then he just went white.
Would rage and just when after Cassie, and because I
feel like he was on the he was teetering and
he was almost he was very sympathetic to the Gormans,

(25:16):
and I think he like if he well, he's not
a fighter, but if he had any ounce of like
you know that, you know, that bravery to pick up
a weapon, I think he would have flipped to the
other side if he didn't see Cassie in there.

Speaker 5 (25:27):
I do too, I really do. That's where my mind
was going. I was thinking, oh no, please, don't see him.
That's literally what I was thinking. If you see him,
everything's out the window. But it was building almost this.
You see that tear when he's standing there, and it's
kind of like, I don't know in my mind from
my perspective, I was looking at it as he was going.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
I was lied to this entire time.

Speaker 5 (25:52):
I was promised all of this piece, and I was
promised that this order and structure would give people east
and prosperity and instead this is what they're getting and
this is not what I signed up for.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
So that's like what I saw in him. I could
be wrong.

Speaker 5 (26:08):
I'm reading into it, you know, obviously as an audience member.
But then I think I do think as he saw Cassian,
like you were saying it, just that the anger and
rage came like you started all of this, you know,
and and it went.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
Out the window. It's like he forgot what was going on.

Speaker 3 (26:25):
I'm still chewing on that exact moment as well that
Jessica was talking about. I'm still trying to figure out,
parse out. I feel like he definitely got his wires crossed.
I definitely feel like Dedra Didra, Dedra, Dedra Dedra.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
I think.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
His feelings for her definitely played a role in it.
And not to say that like he was doing it
out of love or whatever, but definitely like because they
were arguing and he left her literally moments before that happened.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, he snapped the kind of choker and everything.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, exactly, And but like I think when he saw
Cassie and that when he snapped, because I think my interpretation,
and again I'm only saying this as someone who watched
the episode once and then had to rewatch that scene
just for coverage purposes. It feels like to me that
he got angry casting because it's like you ruin my
life in ways that I can't even put into words.
It's not just that you made me break up with
my girlfriend, but also like you're causing so much chaos

(27:19):
on this innocent planet people who don't really deserve it,
like like like again, he was he really was building
up the sympathy for the Gormans, so when he saw cast,
I think he just got left and right, up and
down mixed up, and all he saw was read. That's
just my interpretation. I'm gonna have to rewatch the episode
to properly understand it, but that's how I was seeing it.
It was a mix of you ruined my life, but

(27:41):
also you ruin my chance on happiness because I had
something with with with Dedra, Dedre with d H and
it's no more. I had to just ruin it all
for you, So f you, I'm going to try to
kill you right now. And that's how all that happened.
Maybe I'm off the mark. Maybe you guys tell me
if I'm off the market.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
Follow that I.

Speaker 5 (28:00):
Think that's that's kind of how my mind is tracking.
And I think you can pronounce it either way, right.
You know they were talking about I.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
Mean go back to the O G O G and uh.

Speaker 5 (28:11):
You know Lucas saying, well, there's different different ways to
pronounce things in the real world.

Speaker 4 (28:15):
So you know, Hans, whatever you want to say.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
And I know.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
I will say Cyril became endearing once he laid on
the bed all weird. That was great.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
Yeah, I feel that, man. I feel that so much.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
Oh man, just having to deal with his own mother
like that, and and his and his partner quarreling like
that in the kitchen. It's so funny. They had that
serious conversation and he's in the next room over, like
he clearly heard them.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
It's not a very big apartment room that they're in.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
The show is trying to suggest that, like, oh, he
didn't hear it. He went up to it, he went
up to his room or down to his room wherever.
But it's like next it's it's the root next room over.
Clear he clearly heard everything that they were talking about.
And it's just so funny. You had to play it
off as if he didn't hear a thing so funny.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Cyril, like it's it's it's just a fascinating It's one
of the fascinating things with his character because I think,
I'm I'm kind of similar with with you Eric, A'm
similar with you Jessica and Jong, where with him it
feels like, you know, he's having this breaking point with
realizing what the Empire's doing, but his obsession it kind

(29:30):
of triggers in that moment once he sees Cassie in
and he just flips. He just flips out, starts having
this which, by the way, solid action scene, I want
to add, and then he that's it. He gets blasted
in the head and it's over, like just just like that.
And I think with Dedra, Dedre d her her obsession

(29:52):
with luthen and axis and all that ends up causing
her to end up in the position where she's at
where of course the imperi are are you can't go
in my area, this, that and that, you know whatever,
and then she ends up in probably the worst place
for her obviously, and that's a jail where she has
no control over anything.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, it's just it's funny to me that how like
she ended up being you know, she ended up where
she was and you know, I I just I said,
oh man, that there's no escaping where you are. It
just took it took everything in the world for and
or for Cassie and to escape to escape in season one,
and which by the way, that that when he got

(30:33):
captured in season one, that those episodes were fantastic when
he was spending his time in prison. But but yeah,
it's uh, it's so, it's so it's so amazing how
complex these characters are and that the way that they've
been written, it's very well taken care of. And I
feel like each one of these characters is very well

(30:56):
was almost hand carved and crafted by by the team
Lucasfilms and Tony Gilroy and it's just like a lot
there's so much complexity to all these characters, and they
feel like real people, Like all of us aren't black
and white. We have different opinions, and we have which
is you know, kind of the reason why the maybe

(31:17):
maybe our country is the way it is. And I
think it's it's I think between this and uh, it
was between this and and Daredevil that had a lot
of uh, you know, just scary you know, yes, yes,
and and I think, and I think you you see,

(31:38):
you know, pretty clear as day with this one. And
even within like the the imperial forces and even within
the rebel forces, there's dissension, even if it's small or big,
there's dissension everywhere. And it's so hard, Like from the
imperial perspective, it's so hard to because they're so controlling
that it's so hard to control people that are not

(32:00):
brainwash stormtroopers. Right, So it's like, it's h I love
the complexity and the nuance of everything that they're doing here.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
It's poetic. Dedra's Dedrus sorry, guys, Dedre's imprisonment. It speaks
to the larger theme of the show, in my opinion,
which is about sacrifice. And even if you sacrifice, it's
always not it's not always for noble causes. And also
you're never gonna you're not always going to be rewarded
for all your sacrifices. Think about what each of the characters,

(32:29):
you know, think about all of the major characters, Luthen
Casian and or Dedra, cyril Man, Mathma. Everyone in the
show sacrifices something per and something very personal as well,
But what do they get for it? In this case
Dedro sacrifice personal happiness. She gave up her loyalty, her
basically her whole identity towards the empire. And what does

(32:50):
she what does she get for it? A jail cell.
It's poetic and tragic and and in so many different ways,
and in some ways you want to feel be like
justified for her. It's like, yeah, of course she would.
But then it's like, you know, again, I know she
I recognized she's the bad guy here. But it's also
like you've spent so much time with her and wanting
and being invested in in in her to the point

(33:12):
where you almost want to see her happy and free,
maybe free from the Empire, but free nonetheless. And yet
what does she get. She gets a you know, four
rooms and and a and a and a jail cell.
I always moved when she like at the very end
of the finale, when like the lights go out and
in her cell and she's just crying all alone because
also she don't she she really hasn't no one anymore.

(33:34):
She lost Cyril. It's just so so rich. I'm just yeah,
I'm thinking about that moment, and just again it speaks
to the larger theme of the show overall, it's about sacrifice.
It's about pyrrhic victories, like, yes, you win, but but
at what cost? Sometimes I wonder, like, imagine Dedra on
the side of the rebellion, like someone like her. Imagine

(33:56):
how much maybe efficient or organized the the rebell would
have been if she were on their side. But clearly
that's not how the fate. That's clearly not how fate happened.
I'm talking in circles now, but like, it's just it
was a powerful couple seconds on screen that I think
can encapsulates so much about what the show is about
sacrifice and how you're not always going to be rewarded

(34:18):
for it.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
It just very quickly jumping here, very quickly, you're talking
about sacrifice. I'm looking at I just have IMDb pulled up.
I'm looking at the top cast. Nobody on this list
had the happy end. You could, you could make an
argument Biggs had a happy ending just you know, because
she had his child and she's you know, technically safe.
But everybody on this list is either dead or about

(34:41):
to be dead, or going into their doom, or in
prison or on a planet that they absolutely do not
want to be. There and it's yeah, it's so it's
it's uh, it's yeah, it's it's beautifully sad, sadly beautiful. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (34:58):
I mean it's like, yes, bis us have that, but
like again, at what cost, you know, you know, everything
she went through and everything.

Speaker 4 (35:08):
That she lost too.

Speaker 5 (35:09):
It's like it's it's very bittersweet because yes she has that,
but she also doesn't have it with who she wants
to have it with, you know. And so it the show,
like I I.

Speaker 4 (35:23):
Love when Star Wars plays with.

Speaker 5 (35:27):
I mean, it kind of goes back to you know,
like even back to to you know, I think about
you know, we just had the anniversary of Empire Strikes Back,
you know, and and the Cave, the Cave right of
Luke going in there, and.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
It's very much, very much.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
Based off of of you know, psychology and and different
things and different influences that that George Lucas has. And
I love when Star Wars goes there and and or
Even though so much of it is about Sacer, it's
also about that duality of a person, right, like that
dark in you and what are you gonna do to
get what you want? Are you going to tap into

(36:08):
that side of yourself? And if you do, can you
live with that? Can you live with the choices that
you have to make in order to do the things
that need to be done? And so with the rebellion,
I mean, they're they're not they're not perfect angels either,
you know. And and so but like you know, I
think I see that in Luthan, Like he is very dark,

(36:29):
he is very conflicted inside, and he does a lot,
but he's like, I sold myself for this, you know,
Like he he believes in his clause.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
One hundred percent. And I think.

Speaker 5 (36:41):
Deirdre, even if she didn't end up there, I mean, honestly,
I don't know what she would not have done for.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
The empire too, you know.

Speaker 5 (36:51):
So it's it's I love when it plays with that,
when it plays when Star Wars goes there, when it
plays with how complex we are as humans and how
there are choices that have to be made and what
would you do if you were in that situation, you know,
those kind of questions, and and it's it's such a
such an interesting thing, and I love it when Star

(37:13):
Wars goes to that level and makes you question anything.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
It's it's fun for me, at least.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
Literally put Jessica. I kind of felt like an idiot
at the end of the finale because I was slightly
confused with Bicks because the closing image was Bicks with
her child looking at the sun sunrise, and I was
kind of like, wait, how is that? What what does
that mean? And then it just took me a couple
more minutes to be like, Oh, it's the sunrise. He'll

(37:41):
never see. It's it's he cast cast burned his life
for sunrise he'll never see. And that's when I was like,
oh God, I just felt like an idiot. But but
that's that's It was that crushing moment of like, oh,
that's what all of this means. It means yeah, you know,
sacrificing for a greater good and everything like that. Just
I just want to emphasize that, like it like.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Like a baby. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
I was just kind of like, what's this baby? And
then I was like, oh, wait, right right, she was
pregnant and also YadA YadA. Yeah, it just took me
a minute. But then that's when I came around being
like a little disappointed with the indor finelle to being like, oh,
this is the perfect ending that in almost any Star
Wars ever since. Maybe I would say last Jedi, but
that that's a that's a personal thing.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
But in the on the opposite end of that, like
Cassie and while he's walking, uh, you know, walking towards
his ship, he has a smile in his face. I'm
not a grin, but he's like he you know.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
He looks like he's like a magazine model.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Was like, I was like, you do know you're about
to die.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
It's like he's walking around like he's shooting a Banana
Republic ad and I just dude, like, you're gonna die. Well,
obviously he doesn't know that because to him, he's just
going to this planet to pick up sensibly jinn Ursa, right,
Like that's did I get that wrong? Or like he's
on his way with K two to get jim Urso.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
He's on his way to meet U t Villik what
I forget the guy's name who's at the beginning of
Rogue one, I believe, right, But I want to go
back to something that you had said, Jessica, in terms of,
you know, we could kind of read as to what's

(39:23):
happening in between like different moments and episodes and things
like that. But one thing that Tony Gilroy didn't want
us to like leave up to fan fiction or anything like.
That was the story behind Luthen and Claya, and we
get an episode dedicated to them and their backstory. And
I am hard pressed not to say that that's probably

(39:46):
my favorite episode. It's it's hard for me to because
a lot of these episodes are so so great, but
that episode in particular, I thought was just absolutely phenomenal
and how Tony Gilroy wanted to flesh out that backstory
between the two of them and and understand where they're
coming from, but at the same time intertwining it with
Claia making the ultimate sacrifice and killing someone that she

(40:11):
viewed as a father figure. I would, I would say
I would, that's kind of how I read it for
the greater good in that moment. It was just such
a powerful episode and a powerful backstory to see those
two and how they kind of how their journeys first started.

Speaker 4 (40:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
I I love when we get backstory that either we
don't think that we want or need, and then we
get it and it makes something so much more powerful.
And so many people, I think sometimes miss that and
we get gripes of you know, not I don't want

(40:50):
to say the word, but you know, a filler episode,
and that is so not that.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
Way to me at all.

Speaker 5 (40:56):
It's it's building characters, right, it's you know, God forbid.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
We have.

Speaker 5 (41:02):
Character development and in a show. And I love that
episode too. I think it's very important to see that
and makes it even more tragic the choices that she
has to make and what she has to do in
order to move forward.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
So no, I love that episode too.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
Did you guys ever see the movie Leon the Professional?

Speaker 2 (41:22):
No? No, I know of it, but I never saw it.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Okay, real quick for anyone who doesn't know Jessica, have
you ever seen it?

Speaker 1 (41:28):
No?

Speaker 5 (41:28):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (41:28):
I don't think I have seen that.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Actually, Okay, I bring this up because not only because
Natalie Portman's in it, It's actually the first movie I
think she did the movies about.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
Do I want to watch this?

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Though? What? I'm bringing it up because the movie is
about a young girl whose family is killed by a
corrupt government official, and then she's taken in by a
hitman who lives next door. The hit man not necessarily
raises her or grooms her, although that's kind of the subjects.
That's a different story. But he kind of like trains
her to like survive on her own and to h

(41:59):
and he'll like assist in getting and helping her get
her revenge. Different story than than Claiah and Luthen, but
watching that episode, their backstory episode reminded me so much
of Leon the Professional. It's the story about like a
two people who shouldn't have anything to do with each
other but are thrown together by circumstance, and one of
them kind of trains her and molds her in his image,

(42:21):
and it's like this older man younger girl dynamic. And
I just I thought about that movie so much. It's
a great movie, like maybe a B plus a minus movie,
But I only bring it up because it reminded me
so their story. Luthen and Claia reminded me so much
to the especially when Claia was carrying out her her
big breaking into the hospital, like she this is Claia

(42:44):
is not a woman to be messed with, like like
I never knew that she had like this like commando
type training, And I just I relished everything about that
episode because it really goes to show that a can't
really read people the first time and be just artistically
it's showing how much depth there is in this universe,

(43:05):
in this franchise, if you want to use that term,
that there really is so much room for all kinds
of different stories. Like I never thought that there would
be a Leon the professional homage in the middle of
a Star Wars thing. I never thought there would be
a Red versus Blue homage in the same thing. You know,
it's just going going to show just how big and
fast this galaxy far far away really is. And again,

(43:28):
just the tone of it just reminded me of that movie. Yeah,
and I just love that episode to bits, not only
just because it made me feel reminded me of this
other movie, but because it made me realize that all
these characters have a wealth of stories to tell, and
we should be blessed whenever we do get the opportunity
to see it, even if it's through you know, memory

(43:49):
flashes and through even the little bits. All of that episode,
by the way, doesn't happen until like twenty thirty minutes
in I was. I remember watching we watching that episode
and clocking the time. You don't get to see Claiya
and Luthern's backstory until twenty five thirty minutes into that
whole episode. So for the rest of the episode, which
is maybe twenty more minutes, thirty more minutes, that's when

(44:10):
you're getting all their story. And it still feels so
lived in and dense and rich and thick, but you
only have so much time. It really is the length
of a Power Rangers episode. And it so fascinating how
we got so much of that out of just so little.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
It was like while she was in the hospital, right there,
inner laying inner, layering backstory with yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah, and I memory like memories. It's like she's running
through her memories as she's doing her not rescue mission,
but like her her mission to the hospital.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Yeah, her way to make sure that the rebellion is
stays alive and make sure that you know Luthen, you
know he he, she knows, he knows that he can't
survive because the greater good for the rebellion. And yeah,
that was so beautifully well told and yeah, beautifully well
acted in the way that she went through like she

(45:02):
holds an entire teenage adult life lifetime of rage within
within herself because she because of all the atrocities that
she suffered as a as a young child, and and
and right when you know lutherin in her meat. She
just thinks very quickly on her feet. And the first

(45:24):
words that Luther and heard was her negotiating a price
for for something that they found. So it's like, yeah,
they were just h fit like glove.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Yeah, it was just I love the the line in
that episode too, It's like, oh, the prevailing theory is
a team of three. It was like, no way wrong
on that one. But the way they shot it, the
way they handled it, and the way Cleia, I mean,
of all the characters that shined in in season two,
I thought in particular she stood out amongst the rest.

(45:55):
No offense to anybody else, but she really had a
strong second.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
Season and actual performance exactly.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
And for her this to be her first acting like
in terms of film and TV, like, this is incredible
work by her.

Speaker 3 (46:10):
She has very expressive eyes. I'm always I'm always drawn
to eyes in an actor because that's like the way
to really read anyone. Anya Taylor Joy has like really
expressive eyes as well, And I was just thinking about Clea.
You could read sympathy, rage, wrath, and desperation and in
just her eyes. I'm just I was always whenever she

(46:32):
was on screen, I was always looking directly into her
eyes because she she communicates a wealth of information. That is,
I'm excited to see more of what she's going to
do in the future, because I think this was kind
of a kind of a coming up party for her.
I'm forgetting her the actress's name right now, even but yeah,
what a what a performance. Oh my god at m

(46:55):
Yeah yeah, you know, in another universe she could have
played like a another version of Leah.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, Elizabeth de Lua Delao. I don't I'm not one
hundred percent sure how to say her last name, but yeah, Elizabeth.
Just phenomenal performance by her.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
And just one thing, uh, the whole Clark Kent thing
with the glasses and no glasses thing. I think I
got that with her. Her and her hair when it
was when she looked different. She looked a lot different
when with her hair up versus when it was down.
So you know, I think it was one of what's
her name from New Girl? Uh? Yes, there was Zoey, Yeah,
Zoe Deschanel. The thing with her and bangs and no

(47:36):
bangs is it's a completely different person. Yeah, there's a
whole theory out there, But anyway, I have to step
away and go because my daughter is finishing up school
and this is her last day, and so I will
have to bow out very gracefully. And I know that
Michael and you guys are gonna take this home, Eric

(47:58):
uh and Jessica are going to take this home.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
And I'm very sad that I'm gonna miss this rest
of this conversation. Oh and one last thing before I go.
I do love the fact that Tony Gilroy saw a
backstory to K two s O and he said, nope, nope, yeah, yeah, nope,
that's not it. I'm gonna do it myself a.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
Right, guys, Thanks for having me, man, Yeah, take care.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Got my cab.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
I love like you were saying, Eric. Just her performance,
the way she handles different situations with just the I
don't know, the motive nature she has with saying so
much without saying anything. It felt like in a lot
of different moments and I thought that was just her.
She was phenomenal, and I love that we got more

(48:52):
of her. And also it felt like, you know, we
get to episode ten, she has this moment with Luthen
and then she's just broken, right, She feels kind of
broken at that moment and you see her almost just
walk away into the jungle in episode I believe it's twelve,
where she just kind of starts walking and then Veille

(49:12):
comes in and takes her in and like kind of
reaffirms her, like this is the right place she needs
to be. And I thought that was so interesting and
such an interesting way to handle the closing of her
story but also setting up a new version of her
or a new birth for her character.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
Thank you for pointing that out because I was a
little confused as to why she was moving out again.
There there are times when I feel like an idiot
sometimes watching and or because I'm kind of figuring out
I'm trying to color in the lines myself, if you will,
And that was one moment where I was just a
little confused as to like, what is she doing exactly?
But thank you for pointing that out. Yeah, is she

(49:52):
mentioned in any other like canon literature or canon things
as to like what her role is in the larger rebellion?

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Not that I know of, Jessica, do you know, because
I not that I know of, not that I.

Speaker 5 (50:02):
Know of, But oh my gosh, I would love for
someone like E. K. Johnson or someone to write a
book about her. I think that would be amazing.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah, I don't know if there's any more story, but
there should be, Like at this point, there should be
because that was such a interesting story and you know,
because she fought so hard with Luthen. Like it's funny
again rewatching and or season two because I started rewatching
it in lieu of this recording, and it's it's funny

(50:39):
how once you know the story, how it better context,
puts better context on different things that you saw beforehand,
and almost changes my perspective on like season one in
some ways with Clea because of how she kind of
keeps Luthen on the rails in certain situations and is
kind of almost the gung host soul throughout the course

(51:01):
that helps keep him focus on what needs to be done.
It's almost in different moments where she is the leader
of this thing and Lusen's kind of operating just based
off of motion.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
There was a I'm trying to remember the exact episode
and scene. I think it was episode six. I could
be wrong. There was a time when Luthen and her
were arguing and Luthen was going kind of uh, Luthen
was kind of lashing out, being like, what's what's all
this for? What have we what have we all done?
He mentioned something about like buying radio networks, and he
gets like really mad about it because it's like it's

(51:33):
proved not useful at all, and she had to put
him in his place, being like every little thing helps.
We've made so many strides here, you're not seeing the
bigger picture that to me felt like the real summary
capsule of their of their of their relationship. It's like, yeah,
Luthen is the guy that everyone knows is the scary one,

(51:54):
but it's the one behind him is actually like controlling,
not controlling him, but like actually keeping him organized and
making sure that he's actually doing the thing he's actually
keeping on track. What a fun dynamic. Like he's the
one person who's not intimidated by him, and it's like
this trying to not I hope no one objects to

(52:15):
this description, but like this unassuming mousey woman by his side,
but she's she's the real one, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
She's the writer die.

Speaker 5 (52:25):
Yeah. And it's like the found family aspect of it too,
which we see so much in Star Wars, you know,
like he becomes kind of like that father figure to her,
and she's like a daughter to him, but she she
keeps him going, you know, like you guys have said,
and kind of keeps him grounded when that's needed too.

Speaker 4 (52:46):
You know. And so I don't know, I just I
don't know.

Speaker 5 (52:50):
I love the stories of obviously and how many women
are in Star Wars, but I think and Or just
really really really knocks it out of the part with
all of these women and telling their stories and making
it so relatable to us in real life and the
things that we go through and the things that we

(53:11):
struggle with on a day to day basis, even even
in like jobs and the sacrifices that you have to choose,
you know, over are you gonna pick spending time.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
With your kids for the people that are out.

Speaker 5 (53:25):
There that are are mothers, you know, or are you
gonna keep working and kind of put.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
That to the side, you know.

Speaker 5 (53:32):
And so there's there's a lot of things that are
are very much intertwined in these characters and these female characters,
and it.

Speaker 4 (53:41):
Just it was so powerful to me.

Speaker 5 (53:44):
And don't I don't really see that touched on a
lot when I've been watching or seeing people kind of
talk about this season or and Or as a whole,
and I just I just find it so incredible how
much complexity has put into these these female characters and
just the day to day lives and the and the

(54:05):
things that we go through on a day to day
basis that we have to deal with in the real world,
about you know, being strong or not being coming across
too strong. What are you going to look like if
you have too much authority, if you speak your mind
in this moment, or you know, you make a choice
to do this one day, but you make a choice
to do this another. It's just there's so much pressure

(54:27):
and there's so much weight, and seeing that portrayed in
Star Wars was was something that I honestly wasn't expecting
to that level, and I appreciated it for sure.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Jessica, is that a segu way for us to be
talking about mom Mafma right now?

Speaker 4 (54:46):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Literally read my mind, Derek, because that's where I thought
of too really quickly. Before we move off completely of Cleia,
I do want to mention her getting the bug out
of the art Gallery. Oh my gosh, it's so good
tension fieled, Like, I just I love that sequence so
much and how she is the prime Luthen in that moment,

(55:07):
like she is is showcasing how all of her teachings,
all of everything, and again how much of a just professional,
just outstanding scene in that moment.

Speaker 3 (55:17):
But she's the one with the blood on her hands
exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
But like you Eric said, I feel like that's a
perfect jumping off point for Mon Mathma. What a genevieve
O'Reilly give her. I just I loved her performance throughout
because she really everything you just said, Jessica, that is
Mon Mathma exactly.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
Mon, It's Mon.

Speaker 5 (55:40):
It's I mean, we see yeah big in different stages
of life. I think, you know, like with Claya, she's
like she's working and she's doing all the things, and
then you have Mon who is kind of established in
her her career I guess, you know, but she's also
a mother, she's got all these things going on.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
And then we have Bix, who.

Speaker 5 (56:01):
Is you know, kind of figuring all of that out
too and making choices for what her life is going
to be like.

Speaker 4 (56:08):
So it's really.

Speaker 5 (56:09):
Interesting to see people at these different these different stages.
And oh and Mon's cousin, I am blanking on her name,
oh veil, yes, and everything that you know, goes on
with that, and it's just there's so many different perspectives
and dynamics to everything, and then I love how we
get all of it in one show. But Mon Mathma,

(56:32):
you know, some people like to call.

Speaker 4 (56:34):
Her Mommy Mathma. She's the best.

Speaker 5 (56:36):
I mean, we love her and geneviev O. Riiley is
just she's incredible. She just has so much grace to her.
I got to see. I went to Star Wars celebration
and I didn't have any panels that I really went
to as far as, like, you know, the big ones,
but seeing them and everyone on the live stage was
just so cool to see, you know, how giddy everyone

(57:00):
was about the season before it came out, and talking
about their characters and portraying their characters and and everything.
And I mean just incredible people you know working working
on the show.

Speaker 3 (57:12):
But number one, Jessica Jealous. You want to I wish
I went. I had I had some other friends. You
probably bumped into them by chance. Maybe. Yeah. I'm trying
not to say much because I actually have a relevant
piece coming up very soon. Mode don't give it away, Yeah,
I know, but I just want to say, like her speech,

(57:34):
like I think that's I think that's the moment of
and Or. That's the it's everything about it. I was
rewatching it just before this podcast. It's it's the way
that like Star Wars has always been and maybe even
should be. We all know that, like George Lucas wrote
the original Star Wars as kind of an allegory for
the Vietnam War. We know that the prequels were written

(57:56):
amid the miasma of the War on Terror. It so
fascinating that like Tony Gilroy and his crew and his
team found a way to write about and Or as
a way to just you know, know, how to recognize
and call out absolute power and fascism, you know, as
we see it, and we're seeing it not just here

(58:16):
in America, but we're seeing it around the world. And
it's just it was a moving speech that that my
Mathma gave. It just felt probably real and uncomfortably real,
and just a moment when she says when she calls
out Palpatine before they cut off from like shout out
to any wrestling fans. And when I say that felt
like the cmpunk pipe bomb moment. And two it's just

(58:39):
what a powerful performance by Genevieve O'Reilly, Like, I can't
imagine having to perform that in a set that's kind
of like I'm assuming that that she was from that
in a kind of an emptier space than normal, because
you can't bold that Senate floor from physically, so like

(59:00):
the fact that she was able to get all of
that from from nothing, it just speaks to what one
an actress she is. And just like shot and edited
and then sequenced with with all with other rising tension
that's happening around the Senate floor. I just can't say
enough good things about that, that whole moment. It's just
what a good moment, just what a good scene. And

(59:20):
I think it's Star Wars at its best. It's Star
Wars is not always lightsabers and laser battles and and dogfights.
It's cool, but it's also you know, real moments of
bravery and courage and convictions. Uh and and yeah, I
just I'm just gonna be going in circles talking about it.

Speaker 4 (59:38):
It's great, No, it's great. And I think that.

Speaker 5 (59:42):
I love how there's so many parallels in Star Wars
and it it made me remember like and a lot
of people you know, like padme speech too and and
I think it's it's so crazy because you know, you
have people that say, which I always preface this, everyone
has their own opinions and everyone has their own taste,

(01:00:05):
and not everyone's gonna like something, and that's okay, So
this is not a dig if you did not.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
Like and or.

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
But I find it really hard to say that the
show was boring because there is so much going on
in it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):
Now.

Speaker 5 (01:00:18):
If you're in Star Wars and you're in it just
for the fights and the explosions and all that, that's fine.
I think there's more to Star Wars than that. But
if that's what you like, then that's what you like.
But I feel like you miss kind of the complexity
that is trying to be told, the allegories that are
trying to be told, the warnings even that are trying

(01:00:40):
to be told in Star Wars. And you know, and
some people I've seen have said, you know, we've seen
this before, this was done before, Like why are we
going over all these things that happened, you know, in
the past, because I think it's relevant now, it's still
relevant now. Things are repeated and and you know, I

(01:01:01):
hear it on my threads. I don't remember exactly the wording.
I'd have to look it up, but you know, I said,
this is a reason, you know Mon's speech when you
look at this, this is.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Why people the Jedi are a myth.

Speaker 5 (01:01:17):
You know, it's twenty years later, the first Order comes
back so quickly. It's because when you suppress truth and
you suppress things and you wipe stuff out, it doesn't
take long for that next generation to not think that
something happened or that something was true. I mean, we
see that in the real world, and that's why. And

(01:01:38):
the people that just can't wrap their heads around it.
It's like, Okay, this has happened in our world and
it can't happen again. And it's just crazy to me
to think, like how, I don't know, just the timing
of it. It's just it's so needed. And even if
the story has been told before, tell it again, tell
it again.

Speaker 4 (01:01:58):
It's needed, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:02:01):
And I think it's just so powerful, and it's so
powerful that she said the thing, right, she said the
things that people won't even say today in the real world.
She said, what is going on that people will not
speak out about now? And it's just it's I don't know,
like I just wanted to stand up and clap honestly
at the end of the speech was it was so powerful,
it was so.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
Moving and and I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:02:25):
Like we need more mon Mathmas today. We need more
people like that, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Calling out the the order and the oppression of truth. Right,
And that's a prime example of what the Imperials were
doing throughout the course, creating these narratives. And I forget
who was it that said in the show it's better
to have for them to have like forty incidents of
terribleness or whatever it is, because it diverts everyone's attention

(01:02:54):
rather than just having one singular moment. I forget if
it's like one of the Imperials or or who it is.
But I felt like that's like a accurate thing again
for today what we experience in that every day. I
think about the Daredevil Born Again line where it feels
like every week there's a scandal. It feels like every
day there's a scandal. And this prime this showcase did

(01:03:17):
so well in how the oppression of truth, the oppression
of changing the narratives, if you will, The way they
focused in on the media aspect, especially in the Gorman
section of this story, and having the Gorman or having
those reporters report from Gorman and telling the one story
of oh, terrorists and this and that and it's oh

(01:03:39):
like making it presenting it as a one sided nature
was scary because I feel like sometimes that kind of
happens in our day and age with misinformation and the
way it is now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
Just taking on just a little bit is anewer. The
first instance we've seen news media in the Star Wars universe.

Speaker 5 (01:03:57):
I mean, we've seen like the hollow net things, but
I don't know if we've seen like but.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Like nothing in that extent. Yeah, nothing in like this
controlling narrative type thing. I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:04:08):
Yeah, just fascinating to me just how much and or
was was grounding the Star Wars. I'm kind of going
off track, and I apologize, but just like there's there's
a little bits of and ORID that made me realize
just how much Star Wars can actually feel a lot
like our world. Everything from the fact that there's daytime
magazine shows, to like an active news media, to like
press credentials like hearing hearing the word press credentials, which

(01:04:31):
is like something that I deal with a lot. So
funny to hear that in like the Star Wars universe,
which for a long time just felt like, you know,
you're watching the show about like laser monks and things
like that. Like the only time I ever remember there
being like a TV industry in Star Wars was back
in Attack of the Clones. When you watch Anakin and
Obi Wan going to the bar, you can see on

(01:04:52):
the TV there are TVs on the bar and there's
like they're watching football, like Star Wars football. But it's
just kind of like I remember being a kid being like, hey,
can I watch like what they're watching. I want to
know this universe a little more so. Fascinating that indoor
actually like shows us a tea like that kind of
corner of the Star Wars universe anyway, just a very

(01:05:14):
small thing. But sorry about that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
No, you're good, because I thought that was interesting too.
Coming from a broadcast media perspective and having to fight
for credentials and yeah, your outlet doesn't get a spot,
you have to float around or whatever the case, like
that just all felt very real.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
Yeah, it's I do like it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:35):
I mean some people are like, oh, it takes takes
me out of Star Wars. I don't want Star Wars
to feel like real life. But you know, there's there's
so much in it that is like that, you know,
and I don't know, I think of like even like
in the Rebels and the animated show, they talk about
like watching a broadcast or catching a broadcast, and a
lot of it is is senators like mon MafA and

(01:05:56):
things like that, and you don't think about, Okay, well
who's recording that or how is that being broadcast?

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
So seeing that flip.

Speaker 5 (01:06:03):
Side of it, I don't know, it doesn't take me
out of it because obviously someone has to be there
to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
You know, it makes me feel the universe a little
more lived in and real. You know, it doesn't have
to you know, they don't have to have reality shows
or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
I don't care.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
It's just I just need something that makes me feel
like I'm not in a completely foreign environment. That is
that that I can't wrap my head around. And just
to go back to your point, Jessica, you mentioned before
that how when you hide the truth, things can become myth,
even even if it's just not that very long. I'm
reminded of how on the Rebel base there's that moment

(01:06:40):
where was it casting abix. They see a Force user
and they dismiss it as like hocus focus, they dismiss
it as like this is this is like you're basically
reading like astrology or something like that. This is this
is BS And it's so fascinating to me, being like,
this whole franchise was built on the fact that we

(01:07:00):
know that the Jedi were real, right and everything, but
because and it's it's so funny. It's only thirty years
have passed since maybe between I think Return to the
Jedi and the prequels. Sorry, that's just a rough timeline,
a new hope in the prequels and the rough timeline.
And someone I had an editor at a previous website

(01:07:21):
I worked with, who pointed out being like, this was
Circle twenty eighteen when we were talking about this, and
he was kind of like being like, yeah, imagine if
someone told you that the Bill Clinton administration was a myth, like,
because that's the rough timeline, it's it's imagined, being like, no,
this thing that happened thirty years ago was was was
fake news, was was not real. It's kind of ridiculous

(01:07:41):
to wrap your head around that. And yet here in
kat In Irein or the Jedi are so so wiped
out and so I don't want I don't know what
the word is, but like so swept under the rug
and obscured. Yeah, the fact that like an actual Force
user is considered no better than like a street fortune
teller scary to think about, just kid, and it's.

Speaker 5 (01:08:05):
Like, you know, maybe not on the Core worlds, right,
you know, maybe even Midrim, but but not everyone grew
up there.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
And I think that's something some people forgets to you,
is they they look at it as like just like
our real world, our planet, you know, like living here.

Speaker 5 (01:08:21):
But you know, if you live in a country even
that's maybe restricted from media and different things, like you
might not think everything that happens in another country is true,
or it might seem like a myth because you're only
fed so much information.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
You're only given so much.

Speaker 5 (01:08:37):
So think of like someone living on a planet, you know,
like like Cassian came from He he maybe has heard
rumors of things like that, but but he never came
face to face or knows anyone that came, you know,
growing up, that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:51):
Came face to face with the Jedi.

Speaker 5 (01:08:53):
Just because there were thousands of them doesn't mean they
were on every single planet and everyone was aware of them, so.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
They were dying out when Order sixty six happened, like
there was Streuching already.

Speaker 5 (01:09:04):
So yeah, so it's to me, it's it's definitely it
makes sense for the majority of the galaxy to not
really know all the things because just like when you
see you know, you know, mom with her speech and
people are going, oh my gosh, I didn't know that
that's what happened or whatever, because such a certain perspective

(01:09:24):
is being told. There's there's also do you really think
like the people in Coorissant care probably not, Like they
are stuck in their own life and their own world.
And you see that so much, I can say in
America because that's where I live. But like we get
so self absorbed with our life and our daily life
and what we're doing and jobs and work, and I

(01:09:47):
don't know just like our things and our stuff and
what it looks like that when when you tell Sometimes
when you tell someone what's going on somewhere else, it
doesn't affect them. You don't even see empathy. You know,
you're like, oh that that sucks, you know, and move
on because it's not affecting you.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
In your day to day life.

Speaker 5 (01:10:06):
And I think that was another thing her speech really
brought up, is that you know, there are people that
are suffering, and there are things that are happening, and
it might not be happening to you.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
You might not see it, but it's happening.

Speaker 5 (01:10:18):
And I think that also relates to in the same
way like the Jedi and all of that, like out
of sight, out of mind, right, Like not everyone grew
up with that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
Not everyone grew up.

Speaker 5 (01:10:28):
Some planets didn't, weren't even really affected by the Empire,
So if the First Order comes back, what does it
matter to them? Like they weren't oppressed like some of
the planets were. So I think there's so much nuance
and there's so much stuff that goes on with that
that like people are like, oh, this is bad storytelling,
this is bad writing, and it's like, no, this this happens.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
I haven't finished watching it. But isn't Skeleton Crew actually
about a planet that was so siloed yes from the truth,
yes that they had, Like yeah, I was thinking about
it because when we're talking about how the Jedi had
become myth by the time and or happens I was thinking,
I remember the main kid in Skeleton Crew reading like

(01:11:09):
story books of the Jedi as you know, kind of
like on his little iPad thing, and I was just like, oh, yeah,
the Jedi at this point are definitely a legend. They're
they're like popular culture legend. They're basically cartoon characters to him,
little little did you know that they actually for real
did exist. And also his entire planet is siloed and
and not and excluded from the rest of the rest

(01:11:31):
of the galaxy. That was just and for emphasizing just
his point just how deep the Star Wars universe is.
There are planets like in Skeleton Crew that have no
idea of what's actually going on, because that's just how
information when you when you stop the flow of information
like that, or people just are wrapped up in their
own little little world there, a little algorithm driven worlds,

(01:11:52):
we can miss what's happening just like right outside our doors.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Maybe when like you saying that just now, Eric and
you saying Jessica earlier about like people not caring or
so focused on their side of things, it made me
think of parent who is just man Mathma's husband who
is just kind of just wants to live his life
of partying and just could not care.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
The funniest, oh my god, the funniest character ending you
could possibly give him. That guy. It's like, i am
sad with this random person and I'm just gonna drink
myself to sleep right now, Like what a what an
ending of all the characters in Star Wars to catch
up with at the end, and or excuse me, all
the characters to catch up with, We're gonna catch up
with him.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
But I'm glad they showed that because I was so
curious what is he doing, because with the escape of
man Mathma, I assume he doesn't care, and yeah, sure enough.
Is he just kind of drunken with some random woman.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
I'm I'm surprised we didn't catch up with the daughter.
I'm curious about what her marriage is like right now
because he did. Because that's what Mana Mathmas did. You
guys know that Tony Gilroy had written a scene that
they never got to film, or maybe he never wrote it,
but he just it was a kernel of an idea.
There was supposed to be a scene where mon Mathma
goes to her personal home and it's like emptied out.

(01:13:08):
I think windowless even or like or it's just like
it's just it's just supposed to be empty and it's
just her alone, and it's obviously supposed to symbolize the
personal sacrifice that she's given for the rebellion. Her her
personal life is cavernous, it's empty. She's she doesn't have
a relationship with her daughter anymore, she doesn't have her
estranged ex husband or whatever, whatever the relationship is. I'm

(01:13:31):
pretty I still, I still get confused by this storyline,
but I'm pretty sure like she killed one of her
childhood friends for the rebellion, yeah yeah, and it's just
like she's given everything and she has nothing anymore, and
I think that's I'm sad that, like we didn't get
to see that scene. Weird that we had to catch
up with the husband and his new space girlfriend, but

(01:13:53):
we don't see man Mathma like moving out of her
empty throne home, like it is a a little questionable decision.
But you know, I'm not Tony go worry, but I
would have loved to have seen just one more thing
emphasizing what man Matha had to give up for the rebellion.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
And she and I. What I love, though, is that
she's in the place that she's meant to be with
the with the rebels and yeah and everything, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:14:19):
Like she has her cousin and she has the rebellion.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
Because that's as much as fighting as she could do
where she was at the Senate and everything dealing with
parent and dealing with all that extra stuff. Now that
she can focus, like that's she's now in the place
where she was obviously doing what she can to make
a difference in the Senate, but now she can really
take lead and take hold. And again sacrifices if it's

(01:14:43):
not for Cassie and she's not there, if it's not
for this, if it's not for Luth and doing what
he does. Everyone sacrifices so much to get her there,
and she's sacrificed so much to get herself there that
I just I thought it was beautifully well told for
her end.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
Do we know what happens to man Matha in the end,
like what happens to man Mafma after even Ohska, because
I know Soka took place after took a place after
return of the Jedi.

Speaker 5 (01:15:06):
Correct, we know she becomes like the Chancellor of the
New Republic. I don't know if it's like confirmed, but
I wonder, you know, when they blow up all those planets,
if she's on that. I don't know, but it's the
only thing I can think of.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Yeah, but that and going back to just her being
the leader that they need. It's it's still apparent too,
especially like in those moments where they're arguing towards the
end and fighting on whether the death Star plans are
real or not. One guy's like just lies, I don't
believe it whatever, and she's like the level headed leader

(01:15:45):
that they all need. And I just I like those
moments with her, and I just I love Genevieve's O'Reilly's
performance in those In those moments, I do want to
get to. I do want to get to the guy
that the show's about, though, Cassie and Andor, because there's
so much.

Speaker 5 (01:16:02):
But so much about Cassian and I feel like there's
so much about there's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
So much about both of them, and but that's like
the beauty of the show. You could, I guess spend
a whole podcast talk about Claia, I guess spend a
whole podcast talk about Luthen. But they're so well written.
That's why I love it. But Eric, what'd you think
of Cassian's journey over the course of season two?

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Okay, overall, I want to say it's a moving story
about becoming radicalized to have convictions and to have an
actual perspective in in a ideological war. I will say
that sometimes it was a little disappointing. Sometimes Cassian felt
like a secondary character in his own show. That felt

(01:16:41):
weird to me sometimes, And it's just it was very
ethereal moments where it's just kind of there were times
when I'm caring so much about Cyril or or luthen
or or whoever, that I'm starting to realize, like, oh wait,
who's the show's named after. But maybe I think that's
just a consequence of the fact that this is a
streaming series show with only so many episodes in so
many hours, and by default is kind of about a

(01:17:06):
tertiary character to begin with. Uh, it's I guess what
I'm getting at is just that, like sometimes there are
limits to the streaming era, there are limits to the
streaming format. I wonder if like just a standalone and
or movie trilogy on Disney Plus may may have been
the way to go if we want to talk about

(01:17:27):
and Or feeling important in his own show. But credit
to Diego Luna always a wonderful actor to watch. He's
he is handsome and charismatic and a really excellent performer overall.
In terms of season two handling him, I think I
think it was actually handled better than season one. Sometimes. Again,

(01:17:49):
I think the problem with season one was that sometimes
Andre didn't feel like the start of his own show.
Season two, that problem felt a little less severe. But
you know, again going back to the very ending of
the show, it's a master stroke because in some ways
you cannot close with and Or. You cannot close the

(01:18:11):
show with and Or, and as the parting shot, even
though the show is named after him and it's about him,
it's ultimately about sacrifices. And again here is we have
masterstroke to end on the sunrise that casting and Or
does not get to see. That is it's not a
double edged blader or whatever metaphor you want to use.

(01:18:32):
It's just kind of like, it's just brilliant. It's like, yeah,
this is the show revolves around a doomed demand, but
that's the best possible ending you could have given the show.
Like this, we are seeing the thing that and Or
will never get to see.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
A doom man that sacrifices almost everything for the greater good,
right and for everyone to see that sunrise that he
doesn't get to see. Just poetic. What did you think
of Cassian's journey, Jessica.

Speaker 5 (01:19:01):
I I loved it, and I do think, you know,
they do focus on a lot of other characters, and
I totally get that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:09):
You know, it's like, well, the show.

Speaker 5 (01:19:11):
Is about him, Like there should be more of Cassian
on this And there were times that I thought, Okay,
you know, maybe this could have been a little bit
shorter and we could have gotten more you know, things
about and or within you know, this time frame or
within this episode.

Speaker 4 (01:19:27):
And I totally get get that.

Speaker 5 (01:19:30):
However, I do love that they did focus on other
people as much as they did, because to me, it
gave so much context and understanding and reasoning behind what
he did. Because I think Cassian is a character. While
he believed in what he believed in, he's the type
of person that has to have a reason and it

(01:19:51):
wasn't just for you know, vengeance or or you know.

Speaker 4 (01:19:57):
Order or structure or to beat the empire.

Speaker 5 (01:20:02):
I think there was so much he carried, you know,
they talk about the message that he has a message, right,
he had a message. He was a messenger, and I
think part of being a messenger is carrying the stories
of the people, and that you see him, you know, cheers,
you know, to the people that he's lost, and I
think that's so much a part of who he is
as a person that we kind of need to feel

(01:20:25):
his weight. And so if this show is about him,
it's also kind of I think, told from his perspective
in a way, and as the audience, we kind of
see it through his eyes in a little bit. And
in order to see it through Cassian's eyes, I think
we have to see the people around him and how
they suffer and what they give up and what their

(01:20:45):
sacrifice is. To feel his weight, the weight that he
felt to feel well, why he would do what he did,
why he would.

Speaker 4 (01:20:53):
Go and do these things.

Speaker 5 (01:20:55):
And so while I do think, you know, the timing
maybe could have been a little bit different placed with
with those stories, I do understand like why we need
to do that, because for Cassian and his character, we
we have to understand why he gave up so much
and why why he didn't just stay, you know, in
that little apartment with Vicks, you know, on Coursant and live.

Speaker 4 (01:21:18):
A happy life.

Speaker 5 (01:21:19):
You know, he could have said, forget it, I'm done.
We're going to stay here and and we're happy. No
one knows who we are. We can hide in.

Speaker 4 (01:21:26):
This big city. It's the last place people are going
to be looking for us.

Speaker 5 (01:21:30):
Or you know, say hi, hiding innocence in their fun
little cabin thing on on Yaven, you know, and it
you know, but why what?

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):
What is his? Why? And I think it's the people,
And I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:21:44):
Like I've I enjoyed It's it's it's devastating because you know,
we know, we know the end, we know the ending,
we know what happens, and so watching it it just
rips your heart out in so many ways because there's
so much tension in this show. And I know we've
talked about it before, but because we know the ending,
it's like, I don't know, like it just adds a

(01:22:04):
whole nother aspect to it that just makes it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:08):
Just so crushing. And so it's like watching Annakin fall.

Speaker 5 (01:22:13):
You know, we don't want him to write we every time,
I mean, watching that again in theaters, I still am like, no,
don't do it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:20):
Don't do it.

Speaker 5 (01:22:21):
He's not gonna do it exactly, you know, and it's
like it's just crashing, you know, and knowing what he
gives up for and then like y'all talked about seeing
that sunrise and seeing what he burned his life down for,
my gosh, it's it's so brutal and tragically poetic. It

(01:22:43):
makes me think of Canaan and Harrah a lot too
in their story, and it's just one of those things
where you have someone who's just selfish, selfish if I
can talk, selflessly, gives up so much for so many people,
and seeing that fleshed out in this and seeing him
make the choices that he makes and struggle with it

(01:23:05):
at times, you know, humanizing him it was I don't know,
I just I feel like this season was so great.
It did so much with his character and every little
thing you know about where he goes and seeing him,
you know, act like a fashion designer was like.

Speaker 3 (01:23:25):
So great, you know, great, just like throw some like
throw a nice trench's coat and some glasses on him
and he suddenly he's a fashion designer.

Speaker 5 (01:23:35):
I like, of all the things that they pick, you know,
it's just like so interesting to me and knowing how
people like that are, you know, seeing him try to
embody that was just it's so the opposite of his character.

Speaker 3 (01:23:49):
But I don't know, can I say something as someone
who's currently employed at like a men's lifestyle uh his
his like rebellion, where would be considered more fashionable than
like the high five and stuff he wants to Gorman,
it's like the workwear jackets and like the cargo pants
and the you know, just the rugged and stuff like
that's actually really in right now, the dudes, And I

(01:24:11):
was I'm actually gonna disappointed we never got to see
the origin story of his cool blue parka from Rugue one,
Like I wanted to see the moment where he puts
that on for the first time. Like disappointed we didn't
get to see that.

Speaker 4 (01:24:23):
But uh yeah, the costumes, I know it's off off topic,
but incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
No, but the.

Speaker 6 (01:24:28):
Costumes were were a form of storytelling as well. The
costumes were really well done, really beautiful. The production design
as well, Like, I mean, I thought it was just
a beautiful show to look at, like outside of I
think Eric, you were saying earlier about Genevieve O'Reilly, how
she was acting in that in that scene where she
gives the speech, but it's probably an empty space, more

(01:24:49):
CGI based space for that moment. But there's so many
moments where it feels so lived in and real, and
whether it is Bix and cast Seein's home or whether
even going back to Feryx or just wherever I thought
the production done, design was well done, and really quickly
there's a one I'm for both of you. I am

(01:25:10):
a sucker for one take sequences. If there's a movie
or a show that has one take all about it
top tier for me. And there's a brief one take
sequence in the beginning of episode one with mon Mosma's
character where they're following her as she runs into luth
and as she runs into parent, as she runs like
all the veil as she's running into people, and the

(01:25:31):
way they shot that, the way they showcase that, like
as she's going down this I don't even know what
the place is, but it looks so real and so
beautiful and it's just so well done that I just
I loved the way they shot handled it, costumed it,
mon Mathma's dress at the beginning where she's kind of
having an emotional breakdown on the dance floor to what

(01:25:53):
she ends up wearing her like Rogue one costume by
the end of the series. Like just the technical aspect.
So the show we're phenomenal.

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
Again, no spoilers for what I'm working on, but just
stay tuned to Esquire magazine dot com. Yeah, yeah, I will. Yeah, again,
no spoilers here, but from my understanding based on just
what's also publicly available and what what other creators on
the show have said, there are, there's a lot of
practical practicality on that show. There's a lot more built, painted, sculpted,

(01:26:25):
created things that you can touch and see and and
really feel if you're if you're working on that set,
then you then you might think, you know, obviously the
green screen were necessary, but on that show specifically, they
they went to great lengths to try to really create
something whole cloth. Uh So it's impressive. And again you
get to do cool things like the one take. If

(01:26:47):
you imagine doing that on the I l M sound
stages that they do for like Mandalorian and stuff, you
really can't. You can't, you can't pull off those kind
of tricks. But you can on a show.

Speaker 4 (01:26:56):
Like and Or. Yeah, it's there's so many people and
so many working parts that go into a production, into
a show. And you know, I.

Speaker 5 (01:27:06):
We talk about the creators and the writers and the actors,
but like people who did the set design on this
and the costumes and all of that, Like your mindset
has to be so on and you have to think
about what would this character do with this character where
you know, when you think of props, like how.

Speaker 4 (01:27:23):
Would they how would they hold this, where would the
war be, where would the you know, where are they
going to store it? Where are they going to keep it?

Speaker 5 (01:27:31):
And all of that goes into all of the details,
and it's something that as an audience sometimes you don't
think about and it's so intricate and it makes it
so lived in and so real, and like I just
anybody that works on stuff like that, like the lighting,
these shots, the the.

Speaker 4 (01:27:52):
Camera work, you know, everything.

Speaker 5 (01:27:54):
There's so many, so many things that go into making
a show. And yeah, just like props to all the
people working on these projects, because there's a lot and
there's a lot of unsung heroes out there that work
on these things.

Speaker 4 (01:28:12):
And yeah, it's just incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
The subtlety, like the subtlety of the set design early
on in the again the first batch of episodes where
they're intertwining the Imperials with the rebels, and the Imperials
are in a meeting room that's very crisp clean. They
have these little I don't know, space foods that are
just perfect bites and all this and that, and they're
talking about genosage in different moments as they're just eating

(01:28:39):
a crumpet or whatever it is that they're eating. And
then you got the rebels that are fighting for like
these bars that are like I think it's like months old.
It might have mold and everything. But again, it's just
that the way they set those sequences up is just
it adds to so much to the layers of storytelling,
especially with what they're wearing again, crisp clean, these outfits.

(01:29:00):
It's cereal with that, cereal with that. I kind of
like how they do the ties.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
And oh my god, I was just thinking, like, so this.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
Blew me away. How they did the ties.

Speaker 3 (01:29:11):
Office where in the Star Wars universe is so interesting
to me.

Speaker 5 (01:29:14):
Yes, yeah, it's so interesting too to see how they
stylize things based off of you know, different just different
things in the real world. So like, how how would
you know, someone like the Empire in our world, how
would they dress or how did they dress? What were
uniforms like, you know, during different wars and different things,

(01:29:36):
and seeing some of that symbolism and even colors. You
see man and white, you see Lea and white, you
see padme and white. You know, there's so much even
with hair styles and different things, there's so much symbolism
that is put into these these shows and dissecting it

(01:29:58):
and looking at it and looking at you know, the costuming,
the styling, how all that was even done in and.

Speaker 4 (01:30:04):
Or is just I don't know. I love it. I
love going and I could talk about that for hours.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
I love the again, like you were saying, Eric, the
practicality and the way everything feels real. Like for me
being an audio person, them doing the radios and actually
having like quarter inch jacks and everything just felt so
interesting to me tuning in on the radio, just all
these these subtle things that just add so much depth

(01:30:33):
and way to each moment and again create tension in
certain moments, especially like as they're trying to tune in
or or get a radio signal to someone or whatever
the case, or the Morse code postcode as they call
it for Clay towards the end of the season.

Speaker 3 (01:30:48):
I'll never stop being impressed by any Star Wars production
because they always have to figure out timeline, a fictional timeline,
and culture with its own principles of art design and history,
Like what does old thing look like in the Star
Wars doesn't what does old technology look like in Star Wars?
What does new technology look like in Star Wars? And
how is it supposed to look relative to the story

(01:31:10):
and thing that it's taken place in. I remember, way
back ten years ago or so, they were talking about
how Rogue One. I think the directors and filmmakers of
that movie we're talking about how that's the first quote
unquote period piece for Star Wars. For Star Wars production,
they had to think of it like a period piece
because of the fact that it's taking place in a
completely different time relative to when they're making the thing.

(01:31:34):
You know, obviously it's it's just before a New Hope,
but you know, making that in twenty sixteen and trying
to think about that in retrospect, they had to like
design it like a period piece, like a war period piece.
And then, like in every other Star Wars production, we've
seen since, but they were talking about Mandalorian or Skeleton
Crew or Soca. You know, they all take place in
their own timelines or place in the timeline, so always

(01:31:56):
thinking about like what's new, what's ancients, what's a relic,
what's what's the groundbreaking technology? And I was so fascinated
watching Indoor season two, specifically on Gore, because of the
fact that, like a lot of it's supposed to feel
like France and World War Two.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
Yeah, space France.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
Yeah, Yeah, it's basically space France and during World War two,
so they're using like technology and or their version of
technology feels like, you know, stuff that they were using
in like nineteen forty one, nineteen forty two, but it's
Star Wars afied, so there's a little bit of that
little difference in it. Gosh, I'm just basically ranting and
praising how the production designs of all these shows, whether

(01:32:39):
we're talking again about Mandalorian or you know, take a
pic you know, the Acolyte even, Yeah, I was.

Speaker 5 (01:32:44):
Thinking that too, like the when you look at the
difference between like the Jedi Temple or when they're out
on some of these planets, you know, or I don't know,
the costuming of of the witches and stuff like the
intention to color and detail that, Like, I don't know,
it's just versus the Jedi cloaks, and it was like a.

Speaker 4 (01:33:05):
Cleaner look and I feel like it. It was. It
was off put in to some people.

Speaker 5 (01:33:10):
A lot of people didn't like it, But to me,
it's like, well, it's supposed to be.

Speaker 3 (01:33:14):
Very years earlier. People have a different idea of what
clothes clothing looked like.

Speaker 5 (01:33:20):
Yeah, it's supposed to look very different. If if it
didn't feel very different, then it would feel like it's
in the same time frame as what we have now.

Speaker 4 (01:33:29):
It's got to be different.

Speaker 3 (01:33:30):
Quick side note, just because since you have a Star
Wars podcast, gonna ask, isn't it funny to you how
the Jedi robes was just accidental because you know, what's
his name, Gainness was wearing robes because he was in
the desert in a New Hope, and then everyone just
kind of assumed that's what the Jedi all looked like.

Speaker 5 (01:33:49):
Yeah, it's so wild to me how things like that happen,
and sometimes it can be so organic and like all
of a sudden, that's that's what it is.

Speaker 4 (01:33:58):
You know, you wear something. You pick something up, you
you put.

Speaker 5 (01:34:01):
It on a set, and all of a sudden, it's this,
it's this whole thing, and then they create all of
this lore and history behind something that either wasn't intentional.

Speaker 3 (01:34:12):
Or was Why haven't we seen more Jedi on screen
that looked like Luke in Return of the Jedi with
the black outfit? You know, like what happened to what
did come from?

Speaker 5 (01:34:23):
Like you're standing that outfit was meant from Lucas to
to make people wonder when they saw the trailers or
posters or or you know, at the time in the eighties,
anything that was promotional for them to think, is he
going to turn to the dark side?

Speaker 4 (01:34:43):
So they put him in this black as.

Speaker 5 (01:34:46):
A piece of storytelling of you know, because you see
and that's that's another reason why they put Anakin in
these darker ropes which people think are black, but they're not.
They're they're a dark brown and a chocolate brown. He
has no black on him.

Speaker 4 (01:34:59):
H yeah. Yeah. And people will fight on that online
and it's so interesting to me. I'm like, you can
you can look.

Speaker 5 (01:35:05):
Up yeah, And so it's it's one of those things
where you know, he did that back when he did
the prequels. He did that to kind of mimic the
same thing with Luke, and and so there was a darkness,
there was a heaviness to Luke during that. And so
if you watch Return of the Jedi, you see that

(01:35:28):
one piece open up and it's white, right, And.

Speaker 4 (01:35:31):
So that was kind of your clue as you're.

Speaker 5 (01:35:35):
Watching that that Lucas did to say, no, he's he's
got that light, he's not going to turn. And so
I don't know if we'll see dark robes like that
on anyone else, because that was so intentional for for
Luke and what he was going through. And I mean
we see it in the Mandalorian too, because I think
he's kind of embracing.

Speaker 4 (01:35:54):
I don't know, There's there's so many things I could
go down that I love.

Speaker 5 (01:35:58):
I love fashion, and I love all of that. So
I love when Star Wars brings that in. But you know,
I don't know, I don't know if we'll see if
we'll see dark robes like I.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
Did not know that about Luke Scarward.

Speaker 1 (01:36:11):
Like you, I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:36:13):
Definitely not a war keeper like some people are.

Speaker 3 (01:36:17):
But there are some with robes in a giant book
that just says Star Wars Lore.

Speaker 4 (01:36:21):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:36:23):
See, this is why y'all are on the podcast because
John and I have no idea, no idea. Y'all are
the wealth of information. I'm so glad y'all are here
on the podcast to talk about this.

Speaker 5 (01:36:34):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:36:35):
I do want to go back to Biggs, because I
do think we could talk a little bit more about
Bis because obviously she's dealing with the fallout from season
one and the torture and everything. What did y'all think, Jessica,
what did you think of her journey in this in
this second season?

Speaker 5 (01:36:50):
Well, this will be a little bit of a soap
box for me, I feel like, because.

Speaker 4 (01:36:58):
Bis goes through some.

Speaker 5 (01:36:59):
Things, right, and we've had a lot of people yelling
out into the void that.

Speaker 4 (01:37:04):
Certain things don't belong in Star Wars.

Speaker 5 (01:37:08):
And one that's not for you to decide because you're
not writing it, you're not producing it, you're not putting
it out there. So you know, like, if you have
that high opinion of yourself, then try to get.

Speaker 4 (01:37:19):
A job at Lucasfilm. That's That's that's how I feel
about it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:22):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:37:23):
And and so it's one of those things where they
felt like certain things.

Speaker 4 (01:37:28):
Were very important for her character and for what she's
gone through.

Speaker 5 (01:37:32):
And I just want to say, as as a woman,
I don't think there is any of us that have
not had a situation similar to that happened to us.
And to say that something so important in storytelling and
so tragic and so impactful in people's lives on a

(01:37:52):
day to day basis, that that literally ruins people's lives doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:37:56):
Belong in Star Wars to me is just I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (01:37:59):
It's just like up in the face to anyone that
has been through, man or woman or other that that
has gone through something like that.

Speaker 4 (01:38:06):
You know, whatever you identify.

Speaker 5 (01:38:07):
With, anyone can have that happened to them in life.

Speaker 4 (01:38:12):
Anyone can have that happen. And and.

Speaker 5 (01:38:17):
If you have not been through an uncomfortable situation, if
you have not had something like that happen to you,
then you're you're really lucky. If that's something that you
can't identify with or you don't know someone, then you're
really lucky. And I don't think it was overdone. I
think if you you know, if you've watched something like

(01:38:37):
Game of Thrones, Game of Thrones is brutal, right, Like
there was a lot of arguments on Game of Thrones
and and with the characters and what they've been through,
that that it was too much, it was it was
done too much, it was overdone, it didn't need to
be as much as it.

Speaker 4 (01:38:52):
Was, or whatever.

Speaker 5 (01:38:53):
And you know, like I've seen comments online about you know,
you know, should there have been this, this or this,
And there's people dying all the time, and something happens
to a woman and everyone's gonna, you know, think this,
this and this, and it's like, okay, well, star Wars
are star Wars. We expect people to die in Star Wars.
We expect violence to happen in Star Wars. We expect

(01:39:15):
these things.

Speaker 4 (01:39:18):
But when you deal with other things that happen in
people's lives, like why would that not be in the universe?

Speaker 5 (01:39:25):
You know, you have the Empire who is literally committing genocide,
who is literally does not care if if people are
are their planets are stripped of everything to where there's
nothing left.

Speaker 4 (01:39:37):
Do you think the Empire is evacuating those people? No,
they could care less. They don't. They don't have an
ethics code as to that that type of thing, you know,
And so.

Speaker 5 (01:39:49):
I don't know, I just that that argument just blows
my mind and I could get it on a soapbox
on it as as someone who has has you know,
like I was married.

Speaker 4 (01:39:57):
I was married in my.

Speaker 5 (01:39:58):
Past and and I've had people ask me those questions,
where's your husband? Is your husband coming back? Like I've
had that asked to me. I know people have been asked,
you know where, Oh, you have a boyfriend, where is he?
You know, because they have nefarious, evil intentions in their
heart and you're alone and it's scary.

Speaker 4 (01:40:20):
It's scary to be there.

Speaker 5 (01:40:21):
And so for Bicks to defend herself and to come
out on the other side, I think is in the
trauma that she goes through. I think it's important to
tell those stories.

Speaker 4 (01:40:30):
I think it's.

Speaker 5 (01:40:31):
Important to tell those stories in Star Wars because you
do have viewership of other people who have gone through that,
like we understand, like I don't understand to the depths
that some of my friends understand and other people understand,
and so I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:40:49):
I just if you don't like it, don't watch it.

Speaker 5 (01:40:51):
I mean, I know that's kind of like harsh to say,
but if you don't like it, don't watch it. Like
you know, there's things that I might not like on
TV that.

Speaker 4 (01:40:58):
Are triggering to me or.

Speaker 5 (01:41:00):
Aren't my thing, and guess what, I fast forward or
I don't watch it or whatever. And it's like, I'm
not trying to sound heartless, but like, I just think
it's ridiculous to say that that does not belong in
Star Wars.

Speaker 4 (01:41:12):
I don't know like that. I could go on and
on because it really frustrates me.

Speaker 2 (01:41:17):
But thank you for that, yuh if.

Speaker 3 (01:41:21):
I also just just just a tiny little bit too. Yeah,
war time sexual violence is real, like that that that
that happens. It has happened throughout history and in our
especially in our recent modern history. It's gross. You can
it's a different argument saying does it have a police
in Star Wars as in like Star Wars that's commercially

(01:41:42):
franchise IP that also sells toys. But I just feel
that artistically it was done very well in and Or.
It's it's harrowing, and kudos to the performers for telling
that story very well and the storytellers for doing it
very well. Yeah, it's just it happens, guys, and you're

(01:42:03):
digging your heads in the sand if you think that
it doesn't have a place in a thing that's called
Star Wars. You know, I'm glad they don't do it
often in this franchise, But how it was done in
and Or Was I thought was superb.

Speaker 2 (01:42:17):
The wording that the guy uses as well, Like I
think he says something about we know you're you're not
of this planet or immigrant or something like that, and
that power dynamic that he's trying to hold over her
in that moment, Like that's a real thing that people
are going through, even now we deal so much with
the immigrant status of people and holding citizenship over people's

(01:42:40):
heads just like it's it's terrifying, but it is a
real thing that happens. And then I thought they handled
it in a in a way that felt relevant to
what I'm I ninety nine point nine percent sure people
are dealing with currently.

Speaker 4 (01:42:58):
Yeah, it's it was relevant to this story.

Speaker 5 (01:43:02):
I think I could understand if it was out of place,
like obviously Skeleton Crew is like.

Speaker 4 (01:43:07):
You know, like pace right, Like it would be weird.

Speaker 5 (01:43:10):
I think to have like these these real life like
situations and you know, deeper themes in something like that,
you know, like that, that would not that'd be kind
of like what you know that that wouldn't make sense
to me.

Speaker 4 (01:43:26):
But this is I mean, I this is still a show.

Speaker 5 (01:43:31):
That kids can watch, you know, Like I I think
that's up for every family to decide on an age
wise like what you think. I'm not a mother, so
like I'm not going to tell you like, oh, your
kids can watch this or your kids can't watch this.
Like that's for each person to decide on their own.

Speaker 4 (01:43:46):
But like, I know that there were things that I
watched as a kid that if it was handled in
this way, like it's not like I said, this is
not Game of Thrones, right, It was not like Game
of Thrones. If it was like Game of Thrones and
Star Wars, I'd.

Speaker 5 (01:44:00):
Be like, whoa, this is this? This is like too much?
This is this is Star Wars? Right. But I think
it was beautiful. I don't want to say beautifully done
because that sounds like weird. To say it was respectful.
It was it was done in a way that it
makes the point. It talks about stories that happen in

(01:44:20):
war and in everyday life and in today and in
what people face, not just women, And it was done well,
I guess is the is the best way to say it.
And I think that in this story, it fit. It
fit in, like what you're saying, what people are dealing
with today, what we deal on a daily basis, Like
it worked for me, And that sounds weird to say

(01:44:43):
it that way too, But.

Speaker 2 (01:44:44):
I don't really know how, but I understand what you're
talking about. What about the Biggs's decision in to leave
in episode what was that uh not nine or whatever
it was? What did y'all think of that?

Speaker 3 (01:45:09):
I'm trying to delicately as say it obviously well done
as well, it makes sense. She has a baby. She
has a baby, and she wants to make sure that
it's far away from all the violence and ever and
and you know danger. It makes sense. Part of me
thinks that it is convenience not the right word. I

(01:45:31):
was always trying to figure out, like how are they
going to write her off? Because Cassie never mentions her
obviously during Rogue one, like like like it's it's it's
this thing that's informing his deep, deep background, But you
never get anything alluding to it in Rogue one, So
how do they handle this major part of her character?
Just literally just getting her off planet and just getting

(01:45:53):
her off the show feels harshly convenient, but I get it.
It's and I'm torn. Ultimately, it's like I would have
liked to have seen some kind of ending. But also
at the end of the day, we don't get the
beautiful ending. We don't we don't get the you know,
if you were to kill her or anything like that,
you don't get the story of the sunrise. You never

(01:46:14):
get to see, like like, honestly, I'm so forgiving of it.
In however, however, however short it feels, because ultimately we
got the best parting shot possible in the show. So
leading up to it, I was always kind of like, man,
that's a bummer. Also, I just like Adrea Ordrona. I
think she's a great actress, So I'm kind of bummed that,

(01:46:35):
like we didn't get to see her all the way
to the end, But the fact that we close out
with her and this amazing metaphor visual metaphor kind of
worth it. So I can only complain so much. But ultimately,
like we got the best possible ending out of it.

Speaker 5 (01:46:49):
So yeah, I was nervous that, you know, she was
gonna have some kind of like tragic death or something, and.

Speaker 4 (01:46:58):
I don't know, like it's.

Speaker 5 (01:47:02):
It's like it's it's so heartbreaking but like beautiful at
the same time, because it's like kind of shows Cassian's
sacrifice and and what.

Speaker 4 (01:47:13):
That allowed for her. But you know, I just had
a feeling. I kind of called it.

Speaker 5 (01:47:19):
Honestly, I thought, you know, she's pregnant, like that's why
she would leave, Like why would why would she leave?
And so I don't know, like I just it made
sense to me that that that's why, because I think
she knew that Cassian had a bigger part to play,
and if if he knew, he wouldn't play that part.
And so the sacrifice that she made of of you know,

(01:47:43):
him not knowing, and and there's there's so many things.
It's like what would I do in that situation?

Speaker 4 (01:47:48):
Would I tell that person? Or would I leave?

Speaker 5 (01:47:51):
And it's it's it's a hard thing to call because
you know, we're not there. But I love one storytelling. Again,
Like you know, I talked about this earlier. It makes
you think about what would you do, What would you
do in that moment? You know, what, how would you
handle that situation? What would you sacrifice, you know, for
the greater good or or whatever it is.

Speaker 4 (01:48:11):
That someone's fighting for.

Speaker 5 (01:48:13):
And I don't know it fit to me with her character,
it fit for me for me for her to leave
and for her to let him do what she felt
like he was supposed to do. I have a theory,
and people aren't gonna might not like it. I mean
I can't I can't prove it or not prove it.
But I have a theory that that she is for

(01:48:35):
sensitive to some extent because they they show, you know
that she has you know, visions and different things like that,
and almost premonitions about different things. And I found that
interesting when they did add that force healer in there,
that it felt like something was calling to her right

(01:48:55):
like something. And then that's a that's a theme in
Star Wars about something calling to you. We see it
a lot with with you know, Anakin saber calling to
different people or or you know, the the kyber calling
to someone, that sort of thing. And so I don't know,
like I don't know if that's an aspect of it,
that she had this foresight, this fore knowledge of what

(01:49:17):
she was supposed to do. I don't know if she
had more conversations with this woman and you know, how
she sent something in Cassie and she was very obsessed
with what this woman saw what kind of future did
she see for him? And so that's kind of a
theory that I have, and talking to people, people were like, well, well,

(01:49:37):
how would she be missed? You know, having having that,
you know, if if the Jedi were around or whatever,
depending on how old she is, and you know, going
back to the Jedi, like, I feel like, yes they were,
they were looking for for kids and that sort of thing.
But if she lives out on a planet where you know,

(01:49:57):
the Force is considered something else, or you know, she
doesn't really she's not moving rocks, right, going back to
levitating rocks and that sort of thing. If she's not
causing really like a havoc on something, you know, it
could be missed easy.

Speaker 4 (01:50:11):
So I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:50:11):
I have a theory that she might be for sensitive.
I don't know if that's intended or not. I have
no idea, but.

Speaker 4 (01:50:18):
I don't know. It opens it.

Speaker 5 (01:50:20):
Up for interesting things because I think their child is
would be around the same age as as Jason Sindulla,
So that that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:50:30):
To me too.

Speaker 3 (01:50:31):
Jedi Master Biggs has a ring to it all.

Speaker 2 (01:50:35):
I love that. And if she doesn't make the decision
that she does Cassie and maybe doesn't go to save
mon Mathma. Maybe it's somebody else, Like it's all these
dominoes that maybe don't fall or fall in a different
way to where the rebels aren't in the position that
they're in. So it's an ultimate sacrifice that they make.

(01:50:55):
But again, for the greater good, We're gonna have to
wrap up here short, but there's so much like there's
still I wanted to get the Willman, there's saw, There's
so so many different other aspects. But I do want
to wrap up on this question. And full credit to
in Session Film podcast for talking about this, because this
is where I saw the question at what character would
you like to see get an and Or style treatment

(01:51:19):
from Star Wars, whether it's in this show another show.
I mean, easy answer for me is Clia at this point,
just because I found her fascinating. But what about y'all, Eric,
who do you think should get an and Org style treatment?

Speaker 3 (01:51:31):
Just to be clear, an indoor style show from the show,
and or or anyone from the.

Speaker 2 (01:51:36):
Star Wars anyone from the Star Wars universe.

Speaker 3 (01:51:38):
Okay, anyone from the Star Wars universe. Look, I have
I have a partial personal attachment to this character just
because I got to actually talk to him last year.
But keir Aka the Stranger from Akalad, Yes, I think
Aclaie got kind of a short stick in terms of
just how things were done on that show and the rescipt.

(01:52:00):
I think. I still think a show like that could
be great, and I think that I think act Like
was onto something and I wish it had more time
and was given the chance to breathe. But in short,
like give me, give me a Stranger series, because I
want to see more of that guy, because like, what's
his his deal? He is ancient in the Star Wars canon.
He's before everyone else that we know of at least,

(01:52:22):
and I want to know so much more about him.
And also, Manny Yusinta was such a cool interview, and
it's like the first real Star Wars character that I
felt like I could actually accurately cosplay. So I am,
I am. I'm secretly bringing that together, but I would
like to just know more about that character.

Speaker 4 (01:52:40):
Overall.

Speaker 3 (01:52:40):
I think he's such a cool character, and I was
aching that act Like didn't get a second season because
I just wish I could have had more time with
that character anyway, that's the guy. That's the answer.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
That's a great answer. We'll keep it secret. It's only
just the three of us. We won't share it with anybody.

Speaker 4 (01:52:56):
I love that.

Speaker 5 (01:52:56):
I love the Stranger's character too. I hope that something
comes back, Like even if they rebrand it, rename it something,
even if if The Acolyte itself doesn't get a second season.
I really really hope that story continues.

Speaker 4 (01:53:12):
I really do. I I hated, I hated to see.

Speaker 5 (01:53:16):
And again, like I get it, like not everything's gonna
be everyone's cup of tea, But that doesn't mean that
that doesn't deserve to continue and flesh out that story
and everything with plaguess, Like, ah, there's just so much there,
so much there to keep going.

Speaker 4 (01:53:31):
So I would love that too.

Speaker 5 (01:53:33):
I would love more of the Stranger and more of
more of those stories for men. Can it be more
than just can it be a.

Speaker 4 (01:53:44):
Group of people?

Speaker 2 (01:53:46):
So that's fine, that's fine.

Speaker 5 (01:53:48):
I And and this is this is uh not just
shared by me, but a lot of Star Wars fan
fangirls out there. The Handmaidens please, like, like there's got
to be so many stories about about them and their
their backstories and and their attachment and connection with Padme,

(01:54:08):
Like I want that, I want that, I want I
want to know about the Handmaidens. I want to know
about their lives more, where they came from, what they
did things after her death, like give it to me,
give me the costumes, give me in.

Speaker 4 (01:54:25):
The boot, you know, like that's I would love that.

Speaker 3 (01:54:29):
So I never realized the potential for a show like that. Yeah,
I never until you just said it, I'm like, oh
my gosh, that's actually really a good idea, Like who
are these who are these people?

Speaker 4 (01:54:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:54:40):
Yeah, I mean there's like hands selected and their bodyguards,
their body doubles, like there's so much there, Like I
just and it's not just me, there's there's a lot
of people that that would love to know more about
the Handmaidens. I mean, they're they're touched on a little bit.
I have not read the books completely, but they're they're
touched on and the books, the Padme books. But yeah,

(01:55:03):
I I want more Handmaidens.

Speaker 4 (01:55:06):
And yeah, who's.

Speaker 3 (01:55:08):
The other actress that was in that? Was it? Kiera Knightley?

Speaker 2 (01:55:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:55:12):
Excuse to get her back into the.

Speaker 5 (01:55:13):
I mean, honestly, a good excuse to even have Natalie
portmant back, Like, even if you don't get Kiara Knightley
and you get Natalie coming back is like savee, Like
that would be incredible, Like I would love because I
know they touch on that. I've not read a lot
of the comics, but I know they touch on that
in the Vader Vader series, and I think that would
be really really interesting to get you know, Vader and

(01:55:36):
Sabe and then that whole story on live action would
be interesting. And you know, I've said this on my
podcast and I know you only asked me for one,
but give me decks. Give me decks diner, give me
decks telling stories you.

Speaker 3 (01:55:49):
Know, yet that needs to be Cheers and star Wars.

Speaker 5 (01:55:53):
Yeah, so many people that have come on my podcasts
and you know, I don't even want to.

Speaker 4 (01:55:58):
I can't even name them all. But there's so how many.

Speaker 5 (01:56:00):
People we've talked about this, get like a sitcom Decks Diner,
him just talking him, just you know, him, just you know,
telling all the things.

Speaker 2 (01:56:10):
You know, why not If I had the budget, I
would make all these shows. But I don't. Sadly, I
sadly don't have the budget. But and sadly we're out
of time we got to go. Thank you all both
so much for joining John and I on this issue
of Comiccast. Thank you all again for your time. Eric.
Where can people remind the people where they can follow
you and get your find your work?

Speaker 3 (01:56:31):
Absolutely. You can find me on Esquire dot com, where
I'm publishing articles on not just Star Wars, but also
other cool movies and TV shows that we're all obsessed with,
and stay tuned for some really cool interviews related to
some of the things we've been talking about today. You
can find me on Blue Sky Eric Francisco twenty four
dot b Sky dot that long.

Speaker 2 (01:56:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:56:52):
Yeah. You could also find the relic of my Twitter
on Eric Francisco twenty four there, but you know, just
so you know, I don't use it. You can find
me on Instagram, which is a different handle because I
was too late to the game to get Eric fancies
twenty four. It is eve Friend Gillian. It's a pun
on Evan Gellian from the most anime Dork.

Speaker 2 (01:57:13):
Well done.

Speaker 3 (01:57:14):
It's a pun on ye, my name, but Evan Gellian.
And that's where you can find me. Uh yeah, thank
you guys so much for having me. As they say
in Star wars, live long and prosper and may the
power protect you. Yeah. Yeah, thank you guys so much
for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:57:30):
Thanks again, Eric, Jessica. Where can the people follow you?

Speaker 5 (01:57:34):
I am at Tales of the Force on Instagram, threads
and TikTok and also on YouTube, so yeah, everyone can
follow me there. New episodes will be coming out soon,
but there are some great ones already out there for
people to binge and watch or listen to, so yeah,

(01:57:55):
definitely check that out.

Speaker 4 (01:57:57):
Awesome and thank you for having having me on. This
was so fun.

Speaker 2 (01:58:01):
Oh yeah, I'm glad you can make it. I'm glad,
I'm glad both of y'all can make it, and glad
this worked out so well. So thank you both so
much for your time for folks listening. As always, you
can follow me on social media. I'm at producer Mike
nine seven five, Jong is at One Punch and we
will talk to you guys next week

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