Episode 285: Chris Tompkins

LGBTQ-affirming therapist Chris Tompkins clearly remembers knowing by the age of six that he was gay. So when he was told that his six-year-old nephew was "not old enough" to understand that he had a gay uncle, it started Chris down a path that ultimately led to him a writing a book titled "Raising LGBTQ Allies: A Parent’s Guide to Changing the Messages from the Playground." Chris describes how his religious upbringing made him genuinely believe that if he put all his energy into becoming "the best Christian," he could eventually make himself straight (spoiler alert: he couldn't). A natural storyteller, Chris details several close calls he had during his study abroad in Italy ("I feel like I was trying to come out"), and shares the beautiful story of how he eventually met his first boyfriend through a series of random-but-fateful events. Plus, Chris's record-breaking tour where he came out to a whopping seven family members during a single visit home!

Follow Chris on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at @aroadtriptolove, and check out his website, aroadtriptolove.com, for info on his book, his work, and much more!

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hey, everybody, welcome to comingout pod. Okay. Today's queer root
shout out is another one where Ithink, whatever, whatever gender you are
attracted to, whatever gender identity presentation, I feel like many can relate to
this one. Shout out to youif your queer root is the Hanson Brothers,

(00:29):
famous for Umbop, which hit theairwaves in nineteen ninety seven. If
you are a little too young ora little too old to be familiar with
the Hansons, they were adorable,long haired blonde boys who confused many many
queer people because there's sort of theywere sort of ambiguous in their gender.

(00:50):
Many urgeoning queer women had crushes onthe Hansens and then later realized, ah,
it's because they look like girls.But yeah. If you're not familiar
with the Hansen Brothers, do aGoogle image search. They were sixteen,
fourteen, and eleven when that songcame out. God bless them. They
are now probably billionaires. And ifthey were your queer awakening, shout out

(01:12):
to you, folks, I amhere today with Chris Tompkins. Hello,
Chris, thank you for being Thankyou, Lauren, thank you for having
me. Oh my goodness, itis my pleasure. So Chris is an
LGBTQ affirming therapist and he is theauthor of a book called Raising LGBTQ Allies,

(01:32):
A parent's Guide to Changing the messagesfrom the playground. Chris, Yeah,
is there anything that you would liketo tell folks just briefly up top
about you. We'll get into youridentity and all that. Yeah, yeah,
gosh, I'm an uncle. Ihave five nieces and nephews that I'm

(01:53):
super close with. Yeah, yes, five, yeah, yeah. And
I'm from Arizona originally, and I'vebeen living in Los Angeles for my gosh,
I think it's been fourteen years now. Yeah. Yeah, And Chris
lives in West Hollywood AKA we Ho. And even if you're not from LA

(02:15):
you have heard a lot of discussionabout who on the podcast. We have
name checked various bars there. We'vetalked about it is a queer mecca,
as it were. So that iswhere Chris is coming from currently. And
if I'm not mistaken, one ofthose nephews figures prominently into how everything sort

(02:42):
of kicked into gear with your workand your book and all that. Yes,
yeah, yeah, yes, absolutelycool. So we're gonna, yeah,
we're gonna get into we're gonna hearChris's coming out story and then obviously
I've had a big impact on thework you do, so we're going to
talk about all of that. You'vedone a Ted talk, I know,

(03:04):
so we'll here, well we'll hearall about Chris. But before we do,
uh, just to kick things off, Chris, how do you identify
identify as a gay man? Ilove it? Yeah, Yeah, that's
funny. Yeah all right, Welllet's sort of jump right into it.

(03:25):
So you said Arizona, that's whereare born and raised? Yep, Teatown.
I call it Teatown. Tucson,Twoson, Arizona, Arizona. How
did how did it all? Howdid it all start? It all?
How did it all start? Yeah? Gosh, I was born in Tooson,

(03:45):
Arizona, Tucson, Arizona. It'sa lovely community. It's kind of
considered a well what I was.It's changed a lot, but it's still
kind of considered a college town becausethe University of Arizona is there and it's
kind of well known for Yeah,Arizona. My vibe from Tucson are for
I've never I've driven through Arizona,but I've never spent time there, But
I've always thought of Tucson as thequote unquote liberal oasis type as certain cities

(04:12):
are described. I always think ofTucson as like the Austin Yeah. Yeah,
yeah, that's a really good yeah. Was it like that though when
you were growing up or is thatlike a more recent development. Gosh,
that's a good question. I mean, I think it depends on sort of
the pockets maybe that you where yougrew up. I grew up on the

(04:33):
east side of town, so Iwas very far removed from the sort of
downtown, more liberal place. Somy mom was born and raised, so
all of my uncles, all ofmy cousins on my mom's side are all
t Looaks through and through. Andmy father, he was born in the

(04:54):
Midwest, and so he relocated whenhe was younger, in his twenties,
and my mom and him met,had my brother and I. They had
a tumultuous marriage, a lot ofdrugs addiction related stuff, so they divorced,
and then my mom remarried and hadmy sister. So my sister's technically
my half sister, but I don'treally consider her that because she's we were

(05:16):
grew up together. I grew upYeah, we grew up together. Yeah,
so I have a brother and asister. Both my parents had children
from like the step parents had childrenfrom their previous marriages. So I have
a lot of like your Brady Bunchfamily, Brady Bunch family, yep.
And yeah, and but I alsogrew up a lot with my cousins,
so my mom's So I was veryclose with a lot of my cousins growing

(05:41):
up and still we're still close today. Okay, And so yeah, so
growing up, at what point didyou start to realize, oh, there
are there are feelings here that areperhaps different from yeah, my siblings,
and yeah, that dawning realization earliestmemory type. Yeah, yeah, I

(06:05):
sort of described I can I couldpin back pinpoint kind of around six or
so, was Yeah, I knew, of course, you know, and
I talked to a lot of people, you know, even with when with
regards to my book, you know, when I talked to parents. Is
that you know, at the time, I was six, so I didn't
have an adult construct of sexuality ofwhat that understanding was. But for me,

(06:30):
I knew there was something about me. I internally I knew. You
kind of mentioned the the Hansen's brothersa shout out at the beginning, and
so you know, kids, kidsare young, developing crushes and and having
sort of feelings or curiosity. Andso six was when I I started started
to notice there's a difference about methat you know, the other boys that

(06:55):
I knew had. So I startedto notice those differences. Okay, yeah,
and did you haven't? Do youremember obviously, because like you just
mentioned, you're six, you don'thave like language for these things, are
that much of an awareness. Butwas there any part of you at that
point that was like worried about thosefeelings or felt I have to hide this

(07:17):
part? Like had you internalized thosemessages by that point? All right?
Absolutely? Yeah, already for sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I
mean I think kids are so intuitiveand from the moment they're born, they're
sort of sponges, just taking ineverything and consciously and unconsciously. And so
I grew up in a religious household. So you mentioned sort of Tucson being

(07:39):
this liberal place, but also Igrew up with very much religion as the
backdrop of my childhood, and sothe messages that I got were very gendered.
You know, boys are supposed todo this and like this, and
girls are supposed to do this andlike this, And so I started developed
and started to internalize messages about whatboys quote should do and should be like

(08:03):
because I wasn't those things. Ifelt like there was something intrinsically wrong with
me. Okay, So I verymuch hid this the the my internal,
my inside you know, emotion,inter emotional landscape. I was hiding.
Okay. And so it sounds like, I mean, I'm making an assumption,

(08:26):
So correct me if if this isn'taccurate. But it sounds like in
addition to, or perhaps even morethan in like an attraction way, you
were conscious of the like masculinity,like okay, oh yeah, gender was
a big deal. My mom remarriedmy stepfather, and my stepfather was very

(08:48):
much Chismo culturally, came from adifferent culture than you know, what I
knew growing up with my mom andmy father biological father, and so I
immediately learned like, these are thisis how boys, These are the activities
that boys do, and these arethe activities that boys shouldn't be doing.

(09:09):
And I did not connect with thatat all. So I sort of had
to you know, I joke.I used to joke and say that I
could have won an Oscar for therole that I played as this sort of
buddying heterosexual, you know kid,because I really I really took on this
sort of persona how people, howboys dressed, how they're you know,

(09:31):
their mannerisms, you know, thosekinds of things that is so sad at
six that that's like already you know, to be afraid different. And I
do think that boys have it atthat age certainly rougher than then, you
know, af have folks because it'slike you can get away with the tomboy

(09:52):
label like that's you know, like, ah, she just wants to play
with a guy. Like that doesn'treally go into effect with girls until after
puber day because that tomboy thing isjust so prevalent in culture that like people
will sort of be more I feellike, tolerant of it. But with
boys, it's like right from thegymp you better not like ballet or painting

(10:16):
or something. Yeah, already there, they're watching you already. Yeah yeah,
yeah, yeah yeah. And Icame with my stepfather. I came
from the family that they like,he'd like sports and hunting, and so
I remember we would go on theseyeah, hunting, we'd go on these
hunting trips, and it was justa source of really just yeah brutal.

(10:39):
And and my sister I mentioned,you know, when she was born,
she was I was so excited,you know, because she was like this
little baby girl, and I usedto love to like play with her and
do her hair and dress her up. And she became like this life,
like a living doll. Yeah,And so I still did that, but

(11:01):
I knew that it was sort oflike side eye. You know. I
love that you're like helping out withchildcare, and the adults are like,
mmmm, this is free help Yeah, more tolerant. God, that is
just so deeply depressing that at sixyears old a kid would have to be

(11:24):
doing that much like mental math aboutwhat it's okay to show and what it's
not okay to show. Okay,So as you get older, what happens
because I, and again this isall me guessing I didn't have this experience,
but like, is if it's likenot easy, but if it's like

(11:46):
you get used to covering up thebehaviors. But then I imagine when puberty
starts to hit, then there's theselike attractions and so is it like,
oh shit, I have to coverup a whole nother set, like I'm
mastered covering up doing my sister's hair. But now I'm attracted in a way
that I wasn't when I was six. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally,

(12:07):
totally yeah. And yeah. Soyou know, I again kind of
with the religious backdrop, is thatI grew up with the religion. I
remember that I had this distinct memoryof my mother sitting my brother and I
down. We must have been itmight I think maybe like fifth grade.
It was, I was in fifthgrade. And I mentioned earlier my father.
There was a lot of drugs andyou know, substance abuse in my

(12:30):
family growing up, and so mymom my father had a lot of like
relapses and just it was very pomultuous, chaotic, you know life. And
so I remember mom sitting my brotherand I down to sort of help my
brother and I understand what was happeningwith our father. And and she,
you know, said, she satmy brother and I down and said,

(12:50):
you know, everyone in life hasa cross that they bear, and you
know your father has this is hiscross. And in my little I was
so intuitive and perceptive and hyper vigilantthat I interpreted what she said as like,
oh, this must be my crosslike how I feel about other boys,

(13:13):
or you know, how I expressedmyself my gender. And so I
realized, if I prayed, ifI became this really good boy, the
best Christian, that was sort ofMy mom was raised Catholic, my father
was raised Southern Baptist, but theyconverted to non denomination Christianity, and so

(13:35):
that was sort of what I wasraised with. And so I felt as
though I could, based on myactions, become this person that I thought
I should be, this boy thatI shot, this man I thought I
should be. So I say thatbecause I started to sort of train myself.
If I found myself being attracted oreven looking at other boys, that

(14:01):
I would I would sort of dothe opposite, I would look at a
girl, okay, or to sortof like train myself. And so I
started dating. I started dating girlsI had. I had girlfriends, you
know, in like junior high,like early your high. Wow. Yeah,
yeah. I dated girls partly becauseI wanted to avoid anyone thinking something

(14:22):
from me. I also dated girlsbecause girls were interested in me, and
so I felt like it was justit was sort of easy for me to
just kind of act that way becauseI didn't have to force anything, so
it seems sort of okay, thisis sort of what other people are.

(14:43):
If girls are interested in me,then there must be something about me that
I'm demonstrating that is working. OhGod, you were so I don't want
to say smart, because that makesit seem like it's positive that you were
having to do these things. AndI don't mean to paint them in a
positive light, but like you were, like you were really in tune to
your You should have wanted to askher. You're right, I would have.

(15:05):
I would have voted for you.And can I ask at this age,
is there any part of you thatis believing or at least hoping that
you might suddenly fall for one ofthese girls that you're dating and it might
become real? Or do you feellike you already knew? No, this

(15:26):
is not who I am, butI've got to fake it really well to
make sure nobody knows. Like doyou remember if you yeah, yeah,
No, it's a good question.I know there was absolutely. I grew
up again kind of with this backdropof religion that if if your people were
sick, then you could pray andthat would work. And prayer prayer,

(15:46):
it works, and I used tohave this little booklet that I used to
carry with me. It was calledGod's Promises, and it was basically like
scriptures. You would look in thebeginning of the book. It was like
there was like an index of ifyou were feeling worried, if you were
feeling fearful, if you're feeling lust, then you could flip to a certain

(16:07):
pages that would have scriptures specific tothat. Okay, so absolutely there was
a part of me that felt thatI could become straight dependent on how good
like good I was. Basically that'sso rough. Yeah, okay, Okay,

(16:30):
were there so you keep dating?I'm assuming like into high school and
all, are you just here keepingwith this pattern? Was there any girlfriend
who like stuck around for a longtime or something really Okay, So you
were having like kind of like seriousor serious for that age relationships with Yeah,
I did. I'll share a story, sure, and I don't want

(16:53):
to. I mean, I'm gonnajump ahead, but then I'm you know,
we can go back. But Istarted dating my girlfriend in ninth grade.
I remember there was a girl thatmoved from another state. She was
a new girl, and so Iremember going after school and we would walk
and she smoked cigarettes, and sothat kind of was a way for me

(17:15):
to become like, you know,an edgy. And so she remember she
taught me how to smoke. Ohremember I wrote her a note. This
is for your listeners. This ishow old school like. I'm kind of
aging myself here, but I wroteher a letter and I asked her if
she wanted to be my girlfriend,and then yes or no and yeah,
and so we Yeah, so westarted dating and I was in I think

(17:41):
I was in eighth grade, seventhor eighth grade. And we dated through
high school. So my senior yearof high school is when we finally broke
up. I was going to college, and I actually broke up with her,
but I share that because you know, she really, I mean,
we were like best friends. Ihung out with her all the time.

(18:03):
She was a year older than me, I think, maybe even two.
I think I think she was older. But also she was held back when
she like when she moved, shewas she was from upstate New York,
so she got her license before soI think maybe I was fourteen, she
was sixteen, and so she wasdriving and so she's would come and pick
me up and yeah, and smoking, Yeah, and you know, and

(18:30):
also I explored with her. Youknow, I was still curious around like
sexuality, like you know, evenmy own sort of experience. And she
was a safe person that I coulddo all of those things with. But
I, but I, but itwas a lot, a lot of it
was forced because I wasn't physically attracted. And so so what was interesting is

(18:52):
that fast forward, I'm jumping ahead. After I come out of the closet,
I moved back to Tucson, whereI'm from, had moved away and
moved back, and I had justcome out of the closet, and so
my cousin had introduced me to somefriends of hers that were gay in Tucsons.
So they took me out to thelike local gay bar, and so

(19:12):
it was called IBTS. It's stillthere on Fourth Avenue. And I'm at
the bar and I go up tothe bar to get a drink and I
look over and it's Lisa, mychildhood my childhood girlfriend. And we both
look at each other and she's like, what are you doing here? I'm
like, what are you doing here? Turns out she's a lesbian. Oh

(19:33):
my god, the best possible outcome. Yeah, I love Yes, so
we were both each other's at thetime. We were both in the closet.
I mean, we were both socloseted, but we were both we
found each other. I feel likeour souls found each other, and we
were sort of our safe our safeperson for you know, our high school

(19:59):
years. That is that's so lovely, yeah, because it's so often you
hear kind of the opposite where thegirl really does like the guy and he's
really trying to be straight, butlike later he comes out and they reconnect
and she's like I always kind ofknew, like, but I had such
a crush on you. This isso much better or had some of those

(20:23):
in college I had a girlfriend.I bet it was that, but we
call that that model. Yeah,yeah, yeah, I think this.
You know, Lisa was really likean angel for me because she got me
through high school really, you know, and I was so and hers through

(20:44):
it too, Like that's mutually beneficial. Yeah, I mean I genuinely did
not want to be gay, andso I thought that, you know,
if I could become this person.But she really also helped, I think
with just with bullying. I meanI was, you know, and and
so I feel like having a girlfriend. Yeah, definitely sort of helped with

(21:06):
that. Did you ever and thisisn't her episode of the podcast, but
just really briefly, did you guysever talk about did she know at that
time? Did she was queer?Like was she sort of playing the same
game you were with like covering upor was she was sort of aware of
all, Oh I love this.Yeah, yeah, Oh I'm so glad

(21:27):
you two found each other. Andit's so yeah, it's so funny because
yeah, it's so funny too becausewhen we were as adults, I was
like, oh my gosh, ifwe both knew, we wouldn't have felt
the pressure to have to have sexwith one another, you know, because
both of us were like forcing eachother to Like I was forcing myself because
I didn't want her to think thatI wasn't attracted her, and then she
was forcing herself because she didn't wantme to think that. Yeah, wild,

(21:49):
that's so wid At least you wereeach other's like safe person. No,
And I'm sure there was like somuch kind of like delicacy that went
into that because as you were bothexperiencing. Ah, this that's a movie.
Someone, someone make this an endingcoming of age movie, like it
writes itself. Okay, shout outto Lisa. Okay, but yeah,

(22:12):
so you said you wanted to goback, so you okay, so you're
about to go to college. Youhave a natural reason, we'll say,
to end that relationship. At thispoint, did you still think like I'm
gonna make myself straight through the powerof prayer or was there a part of

(22:32):
you that's like, I'm getting outof the house, I'm going to college.
I can finally try to like experimentwith guys or see with this,
Like where were you with with that? Yeah, that's a really good question,
because I feel like my inner,like my inner soul was wanting,
like my unconscious was wanting to comeout, but my conscious the sort of

(22:57):
or whatever is about. Yeah.Yeah, So when I got to college,
I did again oscar for the straightguy that I thought I should be
as I joined a fraternity. Yeah, I did. Yeah, And I
used to. I remember I usedto even like specifically wear clothes and just

(23:18):
the way I dressed was very plannedand very methodical and specific how I acted.
And I remember my freshman year.The summer after my freshman year in
college, I studied abroad, whichwas very young because typically. Yeah,
typically they you know, people studyafter their junior year. Maybe is that

(23:41):
that's kind of junior year abroad issort of the typical. Yeah. Yeah,
so I was. I was theyoungest on the trip, and I
remember I went to Italy and Ihad a girlfriend on that trip. I
was gonna. I was like,Italy is a great place to re guys
once I were in a well,and I did. I was sort of

(24:02):
coming out in Italy and I hadthese I mean I can share, you
know, answer specific questions, butI that's sort of where I started to
come out to myself and have likeexperiences with guys, even those I mean
it was very traumatic. I meanhow I felt about them. Yeah,

(24:26):
do you feel like was it kindof the act of being Like so,
I have this theory where it's likeif you're in a different time zone,
it helps you like come out andyeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
Yeah. No, I actually cameout of the closet when I lived in
Mexico for two years. That's awhole continuation of the story. But I
started to come out when I wasin Italy because I feel like I was

(24:49):
in another country, so I didn'tknow anyone. I was so far away.
But then I had a girlfriend likein the program. Oh man,
that's so hard. Yeah, okay, yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Well, I had this fear thatif a girl liked me and I turned

(25:11):
her down, then people would questionwhy and they would think that they would
come up to they would come upwith the conclusion like, oh, he
must not like girls. So Isort of came I sort of became codependent
with with women who liked me.I thought that I should like them back.
Okay, that's that's brutal for bothsides, because it's also like those

(25:37):
girls are probably like really excited whenyou express it. Oh god, that's
hard. Yeah, fucking patriarchy ruinseverything. Yeah, okay, So how
did you end up meeting God?Like, did you were you trying to?
Was there like one night you gotbrave and you like went to a
gay bar in Italy or was itjust like they were coming into your sphere

(25:57):
and it was like, oh no, that's happening. No. Yeah,
well there are two instances I rememberspecifically. So one specific memory I had
is the town I lived in wasnear this like really well known beach in
Italy called Remini, where it's kindof like a party like Venice if people

(26:18):
are familiar with California, like VeniceBeach is kind of very and so we
went to this place, Remedy,and I went with the group of girls.
Was a weekend and we're going toget a hotel. We got a
hotel and we were going to alljust party on the weekend and then go
back. So they got some weed, some Italian weed. Yeah, and

(26:40):
it was like very different than youknow weed that we spoke and so I
got really it was like a completelydifferent high. And so I felt really
confident and really secure. And sothere are these two guys that were Italians
that they're the ones who helped us, you know, get the mom if
you're listening, and and so wewe we smoked pot and we got high,

(27:07):
and I was I was flirting withthese guys like I was, I
was speaking Italian. I felt likeI was just you know, And we
got back to the hotel and Iremember people were sort of joking about how
I was being so flirty with theseguys, like did I have a crush
on them? And I remember Iwas. I started, I started a
spiral. That's when I started thewe became suddenly I started getting paranoid,

(27:30):
and I remember I was, Iliterally was staying up. I was I
couldn't sleep, and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, they're gonna call
my family back home and they're goingto tell them, and then I'm going
to get home and my family's gonna, you know, reject me, or
they're not, They're gonna you know, like like get not want to ever
talk to me again. And soI was so paranoid. So I literally

(27:53):
the next morning got up early andI left the hotel and I took a
train back to the villa. Andso I remember that was the sort of
like gay my sort of wanting tocome out, and it peeked its head
and I had this oh no,and so I had to go back in.
So that's the first. The secondwas on the last weekend of the

(28:15):
trip, we all went to Romebecause that's where our flights flew out of
the country. So my girlfriend wewere together the whole time, so I
never really had an opportunity to likesneak away or you know. That was
the only time I mentioned that whenwe spoke weed. But this last weekend
we all went out to dinner asa big group and my girlfriend at the

(28:37):
time, her mom came to visitand they were going to explore Italy.
So she left early that night togo back to her mom's hotel room to
meet her mom. So I walkedher back to her hotel room. Everyone
was like, oh, Chris isgoing to go say goodbye to you know,
Tiffany, And so I was.I found myself for the first time
on the trip by myself, andno one was going to question, like,

(29:00):
or did crisco or you know,because my friends thought I was with
my girlfriend and my girlfriend thought Iwas you know, she had to go
with her mom. Yeah. Summer, I was walking downtown by the coliseum
and a man approached me. Wasbusy night and a man approached me,
older man and smart started speaking tome an Italian and was asking me like

(29:21):
what kind of girls I liked,and you know, because he he sort
of presented it like he was goingto help take me to a strip club
or somewhere to meet girls. Andso he was talking to speaking to me
an Italian, and I remember Iwas like really shy, and I was
attracted to him. He was thislike older Italian man, and I think
that maybe he could tell that Iwas gay, and so I remember him

(29:44):
asking me questions and we started walkingand we were walking. He's like,
oh, I'll take you to aplace that I think you're going to like.
And so we were walking, andI remember we walked. It was
across the from the coliseum. Therewas like a park, and we were
walking. As we got closer tothis bar that he was taking me to,
I could see guys walking in likeholding hands, and I panicked because
I realized, oh my gosh,she's taking me to a gay bar.

(30:07):
So I couldn't go in. AndI like panicked and walked away, and
he was like, no, no, it's okay, it's okay, and
he like called me down and walkedme to a bench and we started he
made a move and we started kindof making out. And that was my
first sort of sexual you know experienceacross from the coliseum, you know,
at the park so beautiful. Yeah, it was very romantic and at the

(30:32):
time, or I mean at thetime, it didn't feel that way,
but looking back, and so Iremember afterwards, you know, we hooked
up. We didn't have sex,but we you know, we hooked up.
And I remember that's when the shamecame washing down and I remember I
was staying at a hostel with agroup and he was walking with me,

(30:52):
and he was so nice and sokind and so like, you know,
I'll walk you to your home,you know, I'll walk you to a
place so you don't get lost.And I'm remember I was so I just
wanted him to leave. I wasso now I became like disgusted with him,
and I just wanted him to leave, and I became really mean and
was just like, get out ofhere. And so I remember I rushed
up to the astill the hotel room, and I remember taking a shower and

(31:15):
crying and just saying, God,I'll never do this again, like if
if, if you just you know, I'll be the best, you know.
So that was my first sort ofto answer your question originally about going
to another country. That was mysort of I feel like I was trying
to come out yeah, but itwas still I was going back to the
US, so I you know,I still had I was yeah, oh

(31:38):
yeah, okay, So what happenswhen you do go back to the US.
You've got what three years left ofcollege at the college? Yeah,
yeah, yeah, have the girlfriendmm hmm, and I. Yeah.

(31:59):
I remember I was dating this girland she always wanted to have sex.
And I remember at this point,like I just it just was not something
that I was able to do thatI was interested in doing. And I
kept on having to make excuses,and so I would, but again she

(32:21):
I was in a fraternity, shewas in a sorority, so sort of
dating her was kind of social,you know, cred and so I didn't
want her to think anything, andI didn't want my friends to think anything.
So I kept on having to makeexcuses. I was like, fuck,
I don't like, what other excusecould I have? So I remember
a friend of mine started going toBible studies, and I was a Christian.

(32:45):
I was raised, you know,with religion, and so I started
joining him to go to these Biblestudies. And this guy who led the
Bible study became kind of like afriend of the fraternity. He would come
over and you know, have Biblestudies, and I remember his name was
Pat and he would have a soberfor dinner. And I remember he presented
us the opportunity to be baptized.And I had already been baptized, but

(33:07):
it was almost like he was presentingit like, you know, you're rededicating
your life God, and so Istarted to use that as an excuse.
And so I remember I was like, you know, I would tell my
girlfriend at the time, you know, I couldn't have sex because I'm rededicating
my life to God. And thenwe're going to get baptized. And so
I remember I even invited her tomy baptism. My mom came. It

(33:28):
was like, oh god, I'msafe. It was like buying me time.
Yeah, I do, sir.And I've heard this, not this
exact story, but I have heardbefore where people quote unquote use religion.
Oh get out, yeah, sax, yeah, I let's use religion positively.
Have we got to use it?Like yeah, that's okay. Yeah,

(33:52):
so it bought me some time.It bought me some time, yay,
okay. So when you graduate,are you still with the girlfriend?
No, we broke. I moved, well, I we I moved out
of this. My job took meto another state. I moved to North
Carolina after right after a graduated college. So you have another sort of excuse

(34:13):
to ye, because yeah, butthis is when I started to get really
depressed and experiencing anxiety and paranoid becauseI felt like I could I couldn't.
I couldn't go anywhere, I couldn'ttalk to anyone. I didn't know what
to do, and so I startedpanicking because everyone was asking me, I

(34:37):
started, after you graduate college,you know, my friends are starting to
get married, and so I'm starting. I was wondering, Yeah, and
you have a starting term girlfriend.Yeah, well we broke up, and
so I'm starting. Yeah, I'mstarting to get asked like, well,
why aren't you dating? Like whydon't you have a girlfriend? That was
like the biggest question. It waslike nails on a chalkboard every time someone

(34:57):
would ask me, and I wouldalways like laugh and like laugh at like
make a joke like well, I'mnot ready to settle down or you know
whatever. And I feel like incollege you don't really I mean there's a
club or activity for everything, andso you could just sort of blend in,
whereas after I graduated college you haveto I had to pursue whatever it

(35:19):
was that I was interested in.So people started to question, well,
why wasn't I interested in girls orwhy was it because in college, you
know, girls were I was ina fraternity, so girls were coming over
to whoever expressed yeah interest, yeah, yeah, And so that job long
kind of a sort of roundabout wayis I wound up moving after that job

(35:42):
was my first job. I wasworking there for a year and just really
just my sexuality was it was startingto become something that was I could no
longer hide. And so I woundup getting a job, you know,
in Mexico. I mentioned, andOkay, it's not like I plan,
it's not like I and like Iremember, to another country. It's sort
of the opportunity was organic. SoI moved to Mexico and I was there

(36:10):
maybe three months, and I rememberI was at the lowest point really in
my life, like I was Iwas. I wasn't I wouldn't say I
was suicidal, but I was likestarting to think those thoughts because I remember
going to this was again aging myself, but I remember going to they had

(36:31):
internet cafes, and I didn't havea computer. I was living with a
family and I didn't have a computerat home, and so I didn't want
to do this at work. ButI would go to these internetet cafes and
I would research like what being gaymeant and how to not be gay and
I wasn't finding anything that was helpful. And so I remember when I was

(36:51):
in I mentioned I moved to NorthCarolina after I graduated, and I was
part of a church that I wasthat was there and it was a wonderful
church. And so I remember Iwas really involved with one of my coworkers
and it was a beautiful it wasreally it was a really great, you
know uh group of people. AndI remember I anonymously, I created a
fake email account and I anonymously emailedmy old pastor about and I In the

(37:21):
email, I said, I havea friend who is having these thoughts of
you know, done it, andI kind of gave him the whole scenario.
And I remember he replied back tome and sent me a magazine a
story in like this Christian magazine thatwas about a man who was happily married

(37:44):
air quotes, happily married with awife and had two beautiful children. And
the story and this it was kindof the center story of this magazine,
the you know, monthly magazine,and this was kind of the main story
of the cover story. And itwas about a man who was successful at
keith being his homosexual air quotes desiresat Bay, and they described this marriage

(38:06):
where you know, he was ableto not you know, escape homosexuality,
and God, you know, helpedhim and him and his wife. It
described the scenario of him and hiswife would get on their knees every night
and they would pray and God wasso good because he blessed their marriage and

(38:27):
they had this beautiful, happy marriage. And I remember reading the story thinking
this sounds miserable, this is horrible. Okay, I'm so glad. Yeah,
because because I thought this was themoment where I thought women need to
feel loved. She ed that hispartner needs to feel loved and attractive.

(38:47):
I remember the girls, like Imentioned my girl beautiful thing too. You
were like, so that's so lovelythat that was your first thought was like,
yeah, that's well because I rememberwhen I was dating, I would
have excuses to not want to havesex. And I'm like, how are
they in their marriage? Like howdoes she feel? Like, does she
feel attracted? Is he able to? Like they have two kids? Like,

(39:10):
and I had this scenario. Thisis literally I remember this. I
remember I was at the Internet cafeand I had this scenario flash in my
mind of like what if they're ata soccer meeting for their kid's team,
and a new kid moves to townand he wants to join the soccer team,
and so the father brings the sonto the soccer team and he's walking

(39:34):
to sit down, and for asecond, the man in the story looks
at the man and the wife issitting next to him, and she sees
her husband look at that man.Is she thinking that he's looking at him
because he's attractive or just because someoneknew is in town and so he's looking
And I'm like, I would neverwant to be in a relationship with someone

(39:57):
who has to question, who isconstantly feeling that they have the question.
And I realized that you were thinking, I'm really impressed, honestly. Yeah,
well, I mean I realized inthat moment that I could never be
married to a woman. And sothat's when the sort of the walls started

(40:19):
to become, you know, becauseI was raised in a religion that sort
of taught that marriage is this sacredinstance. Yes, oh thank you.
Yeah, it's so at odds withthose two concepts are so at all with
each other, Like, yeah,so I realized like that I could I
couldn't do I remember walking home fromthe Internet cafe feeling like I can't live

(40:45):
this lie. I can't, AndI swear I'm a very I've since reconciled
my relationship with God and a higherpower, and I have a really beautiful
relationship and I'm very deeply spiritual,and I do believe that it was at
that moment, you know, intwelve steps, they sort of have this
the saying of the I think it'sthe act of desperation, you know,

(41:10):
is what brings us to sometimes comeinto the twelve step pure is that that
it sounds like the idea of quoteunquote rock bottom, Yeah, rock bottom,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.And so I feel like that was
my rock bottom and I and Iremember, and it's usually after the rock
bottom that you sort of have thisopening, and so so literally, I

(41:30):
don't know if it was like this, you know, this was twenty years
ago, but I don't know ifit was like a few days later.
But I was basically a few dayslater. My work, the company I
worked for was American Company, andso they wanted me to pick up these
visitors that were coming to look atour our plant. And because I spoke
English, they wanted me to givea tour to these US visitors, and

(41:52):
so I went to pick them upfor the airport and I got they got
in the car and here I'm thistwenty three, twenty four year old,
you know, kid from the UnitedStates, and they're like started asking me,
you know, how many girlfriends doyou have? You know, I'm
sure the women down and again nailson a truck board. Yeah, but

(42:12):
I was. As I was drivingthem to the office there, they asked
me, would you mind taking usto the hotel. We're kind of tired
from the flight, and you know, we'll do the tour tomorrow. And
I was like sure. So Idropped them off at the hotel and I
remember, well, I need toget something because I was playing on eating
lunch, you know, for thetour, and so I went to there
was a subway that was kind ofnear where on the way to work,

(42:37):
and so this is all like thedetails are so specific, but I covered
me so vividly. Yeah, yeah, well, and they're kind of they
kind of speak to the how thestory unfolds is that I remember I stopped
at the subway to get a sandwichand I don't drink soda. And at
this subway they only in Mexico,they only had soda as an as a
drink option. And so across thestreet there was a ben Avidas, which

(42:59):
Benavidas is like a CBS or walgroundsor circle, and so I got my
sandwich. I had the company car. I put my sandwich in the company
car and I walked into the Benavidasto get like a water and as I
was walking in, this guy waswalking out, and I remember I had
this physiological response like I was like, oh my gosh. And I remember

(43:25):
he looked at me, and theway that he looked at me felt like
he It felt familiar, like itfelt like he saw me. And I
remember I told myself, oh,he's looking at me because I must look
like his cousin's friend. That's whatI literally told myself. And so I
walked to the to get a drink, and I'm walking to the register and

(43:45):
I remember my palms were sweaty,and I was like my heart was racing.
I was like, what is happening? And I having a heart attack.
And so I look and I seehim in his car. This is
like in the middle of the dayon a Tuesday, and I remember he's
looking and he's pretending to read something, but he's like looking at me.
So I'm walking out, and rememberI was walking to my car and I
was like, I have nothing tolose. I don't know anyone in Mexico.

(44:07):
I barely speak Spanish, and howI'm feeling right now feels really pure
and authentic and grounding, like itfelt really grounded, and so I walked
to it, toward his car,and he rolled down his window, and
I remember I said then, likemy broken Spanish, I was like,
oh, la nada mas kudria deSiO ola, which means hi. I

(44:30):
just wanted to say hi, andhe immediately started to speaking. He's like,
oh, you're not from here,and so we started chatting and he
asked for my number, but Ididn't feel comfortable giving him my number,
so I took his number, andI remember driving back to the office feeling
on top of the world, likeI was like I was on a mountain.

(44:51):
I was on a mountain, andI wanted to scream how good I
felt. And I remember I gotback to work and I was in my
little cubicle and I didn't do work. I just literally started writing like a
poem or how I felt and Ittook me about a week before I called
him, but I did because Iwas living with a family, a Mexican

(45:12):
family at the time, and theywere sort of hosting me, and so
I called him and he was like, oh, I'll come pick you up.
And I'm like no, no,no, I'm like meet me at
the corner in front of the bank. Because I still didn't want anyone to
know, so but it was myway of sort of you know, and
that's how I came out, isthat I met this person, I fell

(45:32):
in love and we dated. Weyou know, he sort of courted,
He sort of courted me like hewas. It was very romantic. I
love this. What a great firstexperience. Yeah it was. It was
a beautiful first experience. Yeah,I mean it was you know, we
wound up breaking up and I waslike heartbroken. But dating of data,

(45:57):
yeah that's the risk. Yeah,that's the risk of falling in love.
But it wasn't like a fling.It was like an actual relationship. Yeah.
Yeah he really really, yeah hereally And you know, again kind
of speaking to the soul. Ido believe in art like that we're a
soul and our soul sort of findeach other and on, you know,

(46:20):
living on this earth, and sohe had just lost his father. His
father had died and his mother diedwhen he was a child, so he
didn't have parents. And so Ifeel like we found each other. You
know, Mexican grief, how youexpress grief is very different than how you
express grief in the United States,like what's sort of acceptable. And so

(46:44):
I feel like I sort of wasin his life to help him grieve the
loss of his father, and hewas in my life to help me come
out of the closet. Oh that'sbeautiful. Yeah, Oh my god.
Wow. How long did you livein Mexico? I lived in Mexico for
two years. We dated for abouta year and a half, so almost

(47:05):
the entirety of my living there.My god. Okay, and during that
time, because correct me if I'mwrong, but up until this point,
you hadn't confided in anybody. Ohmy god. I can't imagine carrying that
for a year, for a year, for almost think it was almost a
year, I want. I mean, I was very I mentioned earlier,

(47:29):
I was very close with my cousins, and one cousin specifically, which she
was like my best friend. Andso I remember like when you know,
like when something's so good you wantto like share it, tell people about
it even so, yeah, soI lied, and a girl that I
studied I mentioned when I studied abroadin Italy. I used a girl's name

(47:49):
that I studied abroad with and Ilied. So for a year I was
dating Karina and Karna was actually myboyfriend Leone. I wait, at what
point what you said? You twodated for like a year and a half.
So did you finally during the relationshipdid you start coming out? I
did? I did? I did. Yeah, for me, and everyone

(48:12):
has, you know, I've heardmany different stories, you know, in
the work that I do as faras how people come out. But for
me, I needed to have conversations. I didn't want to send a letter.
I didn't want to know. Everybodydifferent for everyone, and so for
me, I wanted to be ableto see the face and feel the emotion

(48:34):
of of what they felt and notfrom a place of like I wanted to
try and but I wanted to know. I wanted to know. And so
I remember I was going home toTucson for the for the holidays, for
Christmas, to visit and literally Ischeduled lunch with mom, dinner with mom,

(48:54):
lunch with sister, lunch with uncle. The specific people were doing a
tour. I was coming out toher. Yeah, I literally I scheduled
meals or something because I needed totell my mom, my aunt and uncle,
one of my aunt and uncles,my cousin Tony, my cousin Tiffany,

(49:15):
and my brother and my sister.Okay, did you do it all
on that track? I did?Wow, that's amazing. How was the
reception from a lot of people therewas? Yeah, it was, it
was. It was like half andhalf. It was mixed. You know.
My mom was the first person.No, my my cousin Tiffany,

(49:38):
she was the first person, andshe was so kind and she cried,
and she she cried not because ofme coming out, but she cried that
I had to bear this on myown, okay. And so she was
really a safe person for me tocome out because she really encouraged me to
come out to everyone else. Shewas very helpful in that. And so

(50:00):
when I came out to my mom, my mom, you know, I
remember we're at a restaurant. Itwas winter, it was cold outside.
I didn't want to tell her insidethe restaurant because I feared that maybe she'd
have this like strong emotional reaction andbe really embarrassing. So I was like,
after for the end of dinner,I was like, Mom, can
we go for a walk outside,you know, after dinner? And she's
like, Chris, it's fifty degreesoutside. It's freezing, and so I'm

(50:23):
like, Okay, well, canwe just you know, maybe, well
we'll just go to your car.And so we got in the car and
she's in the driver's seat. I'min the passenger seat, and I'm really
nervous. So I'm like, myI'm like putting my hands on my my,
rubbing my thighs, and I'm lookingdown, I'm breathing, you know.
She's like, Chris, you're freakingme out. What's going on.
She's like, oh, my gosh, did you get a girl pregnant?

(50:45):
I was like, no, clue, no, And I mean, that's
sort of that's become a bigger conversationor a question mark in her but she
she she sort of her response immediatelywas did you get her all pregnant?
And I was like, oh gosh, not that this was difficult already,
Like, no, I didn't geta girl pregnant, but I'm gay,

(51:07):
and so her response was she justwas very silent, and she said,
well, you know what, myreligion says, I can hate the sin
but love the sinner, and thatsort of set the tone for her and
I and I told my sister,and I thought my sister was going to

(51:31):
be very warm and open and lovingbecause I mentioned to you, like,
you know, we were so close, and she actually had the opposite reaction.
She sort of was devastated and criedand was really upset, which was
very confusing to me. It yeah, yeah. And then my my brother,

(51:52):
actually I was I was I reservedtelling him literally the last day I
was in town like he was becauseI was your scariest one. It's not
like, yeah, I literally thoughtthat I might he might want to fight
me, Like I literally thought he'dhave like a physical, like you fucking
fact, like that kind of reaction. And so I'm right. I told

(52:14):
him, and he we were atmy grandparents house because my mom at the
time was living with our grandparents andtaking care of them. And he stood
up and grabbed my grab my handand get me a big hug. Oh
He's like, oh bro, He'slike I wish you would have told me
sooner, that would have that.He he's my younger brother, but he

(52:35):
was very tough and like scrappy,and I remember he said that he wished
that he would have known because hecould have protected me. Oh my god,
because I was bullied, you know. Oh that's such a beautiful reaction.
Yeah, and I was very shock. I would not that one.
Yeah, yeah, oh god,Okay, wow, Okay, you did,

(52:59):
so you did coming out to it. So let me ask though,
because you'd mentioned like working at aplant or something in Mexico at this point,
were you not doing anything in thefield of like therapy or didn't so
that all happened after you came out, which honestly is good because we would
hope the therapists have worked through theirissues before they But like, did you

(53:22):
ever see that happening in your life, like going in that direction or was
that a direct result of you comingout and then realizing you could potentially help
people? Like how did that allshake out? Yeah, that's a good
question. I feel like for me, becoming a therapist has been a sort

(53:43):
of calling, and I feel likeI remember my cousin Tiffany, who I
mentioned to you. I first cameout to my after I moved back from
Mexico. So I ended up leavingMexico, broke up with my boyfriend.
My work wanted to transfer me toTexas, and I was like, I
am not moving to Texas. Soit was basically my options were to stay
in Mexico or moved to Arizona.And my uncle was starting up. My

(54:06):
uncle was there is a therapist,and so so I called him because I
was sort of I really was devastatingafter my boyfriend and I broke up,
and so he proposed to me tocome work for his He was starting a
residential treatment program for adolescent boys withdrug addiction alcohol problems, and so I

(54:29):
ended up moving back to Arizona tohelp him with his residential treatment program.
And my cousin was also a therapist, and I remember I was just really
curious about I didn't work in thecapacity of a therapist there, but I
was just really curious about being atherapist. And I remember asking my cousin
like I wanted to know what itwas like, I wanted to know.

(54:51):
I just had all these questions,and I remember what I didn't want to
do was she she's like sitting inthe same office, you know, hearing
people's problems, and that's how shesort of framed it. I was like,
I don't so at the time,it sort of I was curious,
but it sort of scared me tohow she described it, and so it

(55:14):
was always in the back of mymind, and I wound up moving.
Long story short, I immersed myselfin an LGBTQ advocacy work, and so
I moved out. That's what broughtme. Yeah, that's what brought I
do feel from a spiritual perspective,you know, that's really what we're all
here to do. I feel isthat, you know, we're all here
to give something, make a contributionto the planet, and to leave it

(55:37):
in a way that hopefully is betteroften than when we you know, when
we came in. And and somy contribution was being able to take all
of my pain and transform it andtransmute it into something good that could be
used to be of service for others. And so, yeah, so that

(55:58):
I moved out to LA to workfor a national LGBTQ organization. But to
your point about therapy, I hadn'tdone my own inner work, and so
for me, coming out of thecloset. It wasn't just a light switch,
you know, even though I wasdating, even though I was doing
all this advocacy work. It's notlike it all of a sudden, all
the trauma and baggage start dating.Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I call

(56:22):
them like psychic scar tissue. Andso that sort of the subtitle my book
is called A Parent's Guide to Changingthe Messages from the Playground, And so
the messages from the playground are allthe things that I had internalized that still
even though I suppressed them, theywere still there and they were still impacting
my life and my choices and howI felt about myself. And so I

(56:45):
wound up working in West Hollywood ata bar. And so my story also
includes, you know, substance useand using a lot of things to anesthecize
the pain. And so then Ifound recovery. I found spiritual My spiritual
practice, you know, sort ofhelped me along that journey. And once

(57:07):
I got really clear about my purposeand how I wanted to use my pain,
that's what led me to the book, which sort of I joked that
I wrote myself into graduate school tobecome and then the rest is history.
And now I'm working as a therapist. Oh my god, yeah, kid,

(57:28):
I asked, Okay, I havetwo questions. The first is I
want to hear the story about thequestion that you got asked by your nephew.
But before that, when you starteddoing this advocacy, did that help
with the family members who coming outhadn't gone well with because if you if
their basis is religion, is it'shard for them to accept this because of

(57:52):
their religion, how do you notthen accept someone who is so giving that,
like that's what they're really is dictating. So I would hope that that
would at least make them be moreI mean, did that Was that like
a transition for them to being like, oh, this can't be bad if
it's leading Chris to doing all thisgood in the world, Like yeah,

(58:15):
yeah, it's nuanced. I say, yeh, I say, I'd answer
yes. And because I feel likethat's where that sort of led into the
question that my nephew asked me,is that you know, I moved out
to LA to work for glad and, which is a large, you know,
LGBTQ organization, media media advocacy organization. And although my parents were well

(58:37):
parents, my mom was very excitedand supportive. It wasn't exactly like she
was blasting Chris is moving out toLA to work for glass at the holidays,
right right right. So although itwas this really wonderful job and really
wonderful opportunity, it was sort oflayered with well, what can we share?

(59:00):
Why? Why why aren't they sharinghis conditional and so kind of going
to your second question with my nephew, That's when I realized because I had
been working for GLAD and doing advocacyfor a really long time, and I
was actually in Arizona, even thoughI was living in California. I was
in Arizona giving a workshop at theArizona Quality and Justice Conference, which is

(59:21):
the LGBTQ state wide organization, ironically, and I was at that conference giving
a workshop, and afterwards I wenthome to Tucson to my family's and my
mom had because I didn't make ithome for Christmas that year, so she
had a lot of my relatives andlike family friends and my nephew at the
time was six, and that's whenhe asked me, you know, he

(59:45):
was playing in the living room.I sort of, you know, I
share this story in my in myted X talk. But but he basically,
you know, ran over while hewas playing. You know, kids,
they have a thought, they aska question, and my even if
it's not at an opportune time,you know, it could be at the
grocery store, it could be infront of you know whatever. And so

(01:00:07):
my nephew, you know, hisversion of whispering was talking out loud.
So he like ran out to meand like whispered slash was speaking out loud.
Uncle Chris, is she or girlfriendto a high school friend that was
sitting next to me. We're inthe dining room, and I just remember

(01:00:28):
everyone likes like time slowed down becauseI remember everyone's response and then and then
they kind of laughed about it.And then you know, kids they they
you know, he wasn't like hewanted to like sit there and like him
tell like he just had the thoughtand then asked the question then ran away,
and you know, but it wasn'tuntil later that night that I started
to think about, well, waita second, why doesn't like doesn't he

(01:00:52):
know that I'm gay? I mean, but I have not dated anyone,
so I've not since he's been alive. Bring I've not brought up a boyfriend
home, and so he hasn't seenme with anyone? Is that why he
asked it? Well, I wouldimagine that my sister would have talked to
him about me because she he hasan older sister. And then I started

(01:01:13):
thinking, well, maybe she hasn't. Wait, why hasn't she? So
I started having all these questions,and then I remember was the next morning
I woke up and I asked mymom. I was like, cause I
mentioned to you I have five niecesand nephews, and so I started to
think about, well, has mybrother not talked to his kids? What
about all my cousins they have kids, have they talked to their kids?
And I was six when I knewthat I was gay, so my nephew's

(01:01:37):
six. So I asked my mom. You know, hey, Mom,
you know has Selene at my sister'sname is Selena. I was like,
has Selena talked to her kids about, you know, having a gay brother
and me being gay? And mymom's response was, oh, oh,
honey, no, they're not oldenough to understand. And that's when I
realized, Oh, this is amuch bigger conversation and this is nuanced,

(01:02:00):
and that propelled me on the pathof ultimately writing my book. Oh my
god, that's amazing. Yeah.The I will never get past the they're
not old enough to understand that,but they can. They're old enough to
wear you know, a onesie thatsays like, look out, ladies,

(01:02:20):
I'm a heartbreaker or it's like yourlittle girlfriend. When they're like, so,
they're old enough to understand heterosexual shit, apparently like parents will always put
that on. But then when itcomes to anything that's not heateronormative, they're
suddenly not old enough that bananas bananas. I mean you mentioned at the top

(01:02:43):
of your show, you know,Hanson eleven years old, teen bop like
breaking heart boombopper, Yeah, breakinghearts. You know all these young kids.
I mean my nephew he was sixand he asked me if I had
a girlfriend. Yeah, so heis the concept of that, but he
can't understand. Yeah. It's sofrustrated. Yeah, I you know,
I encourage it. And this iswhat I write about my book is that
if children are asking questions, they'recapable of understanding you know the answer.

(01:03:07):
And again we sort of put ouradult constructs of what that means. But
going back to me, I knewat six that there was something that I
was experiencing that I could have understoodbased on the conversations that I feel like
my parents or family members could havehad with me. Yeah. Wow,

(01:03:30):
And has how has it progressed overtime with your family? Like? How
is that? Has it? Hasit progressed? Has it evolved at all?
Like? Did your book help themto understand it? Did it did?
I mean, the book really isan inspiration. I write in the
acknowledgment section. It really was amanifestation of the conversations and relationship that I

(01:03:53):
had with my nieces and nephews becauseI realized, you know, healing my
own internalize is homophobia, my owninternalized shame was very important because I feel
like we teach through our demonstration,and so how was I demonstrating my life?

(01:04:13):
My life was an extension of whatI felt about myself. And so
you know what, I lived inCalifornia, but my nieces and nephews lived
in Arizona. If I didn't bringa boyfriend home, how were they knowing
about me? You know, mygay my sexuality isn't the only thing,
but it's very much a part ofme, and it's a part of the
work that I do and so whatam I doing to help create allies?

(01:04:39):
And so I started having conversations withmy nieces and nephews about you know,
I remember, you know, whenmy my brother's kids, two kids,
they were in junior high and Iremember asking them, do they know anyone
who's LGBTQ at their school? Andthey're like, no, there aren't any
LGBTQ kids at our school. AndI'm like, really, there aren't any
LGBTQ kids school. Do you doyou think that they're not at your school

(01:05:01):
because they maybe don't feel safe toshow who they are? Or do you
think that out of all the hundredsof kids that are there, that there
literally aren't any And and that sortof helped chip away at like how they
perceived their communities and I and Iremember asking my my niece and nephew at

(01:05:21):
the time, and my nephew he'stwo years older than my niece, and
I remember asking him and he waslike really popular. I'm like, you
know what, what if there wasan LGBTQ kid that wasn't out or maybe
didn't know fully who they were.But they're starting to question, I'm like,
what do you think that you coulddo to help create a space for
them, you know, and reallyhelping them in our relationship as an ex

(01:05:45):
like, use our relationship as anextension of how they are in the world.
Oh god, that's incredible. Yeah, and so I think that.
And so to answer your question,I feel like it's nuanced. I think
that, you know, gender sortof norms the kids. I taught social
emotional learning for six years, andI even though there has been a lot

(01:06:09):
of progress, there still are certainwords and and sort of mannerisms and beliefs
that kids feel that we need tohave. And so there's pressure of not
wanting to there. You know,kids, I read about this in my
book, is that when we're young, when we're in junior high grade school,
we want to we want to belong, we want to be a part

(01:06:31):
of. We're community oriented species,we're meant to be a part of.
And and so kids that's all theywant to do is be a part of.
And so if a child is sortof interpreting themselves as being other,
they're going to want to belong.So what can I do to belong?
Yeah? Yeah, Oh my god, the work you're doing is so important

(01:06:57):
because yeah, we don't just needwe very much need to be speaking to
little you know, queer kids,but we also, like you're saying,
need to be creating allies, Likewe need to be talking to the kids
who aren't queer because there are statisticallymore of them, so let's make sure

(01:07:19):
they also understand and that they canyeah, be allies to the little queer
kids. Like just yeah, that'samazing. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
well, look, before we wrapup, is there anything more that
you want to speak to about.Is there anything we didn't get to about,
like your work or the book oranything that you want people to sort

(01:07:42):
of walk away with or no.No, I mean I appreciate the opportunity
to share my story because I feellike in my experience I volunteered with p
FLAG. For your listeners who arefamiliar with p FLAG, it's a wonderful
organization. They have chapters in statesand cities across the country all over and

(01:08:02):
in Los Angeles because it's a largerchapter, we had a speaker's Bureau and
so we would go into we wouldbe invited into high schools, workplaces,
colleges to give a panel. Anda panel basically is where you have different
people that represent different aspects of thecommunity. You know LGBTQ, and and

(01:08:26):
we each share our story five minutesapproximately about our coming out story, and
then we open it up to questions. And I did that for years,
and what I found is that mostof the time we were invited to go
to high school is because there wassome type of bowllying or the school would
the administration would recognize like, oh, we need to do some you know,

(01:08:47):
you know, advocacy, yeah,yeah exactly, instead of pre yeah,
instead of proactive. And but whatI found is that when I shared
my coming out, So I rememberI wasn't playing being on the speakers bureau,
but I was at a meeting onetime and they needed a speaker the
next day again, they needed someonewho identified as a gay man, and
so I remember I signed up andI had never shared like my coming out

(01:09:12):
story in that way before, andso I didn't really plan anything. I
mean, I figured it was fiveminutes, I'm going to speak to a
classroom of high school kids, like, it's not going to be that challenging.
And so I remember going there notreally knowing how I was going to
tell my coming out story. Andwhat I found is I told a love
story. I told my story ofcoming out and meeting a boyfriend and all

(01:09:34):
the feelings that I felt, thepalm, sweaty, my heart racing,
all of those feelings that all ofus had felt if we've ever had feelings
for another human. And so whatI found is that after that first time,
kids raised their hand in the classroomand they were asking me like do
you still talk to them? Likedo you like? They wanted to know

(01:09:56):
about Yeah, And what I realizedis that maybe they couldn't relate or identify
specifically to two men, but theycould relate to the feelings that I expressed
and felt so agreat yep and shared. And that is what I and so
to your list to answer your questionabout anything I could you know last share

(01:10:17):
is that sharing our stories, Ifeel like is an opportunity for us to
connect on a soul level, ona human level, despite the differences.
And so for all of those peopleout there that are listening in your audiences
to share their stories, well saidand thank you since this is a storytelling
podcast, I appreciate. I soagree. I think the specificity I feel

(01:10:44):
like sometimes people think like, ohI have to be more general so that
people can relate, And I thinkthe opposite. I think specificity is what
people hook onto and they're able tolike, then they can get that,
Okay, I'm not attracted to men, but is specific features of the story
that they're gonna hook onto and relateto, and they'll be able to relate

(01:11:05):
it to their own like whatever,gender whatever, like Yeah, I said,
yeah, thank you. I remember, and I'll say this, I
remember after and I going back,I mean, I assured that I dated
women, I dated girls, Ihad girlfriends after my first after I met
my first boyfriend and driving back tomy office that day where I was listening

(01:11:29):
to the radio and I was listening, I was hearing lyrics in a way
that I did not understand ever before. Yes, and that's when I realized,
like that there's something this is allowingme to experience human my humanness in
a way that I hadn't allowed myselfaccess to before. Oh my god,

(01:11:49):
Yeah that is that is You nailedit, yeap, that is what it
is. Uh, because thank youso much. It's been so great to
speak to you. Where can peoplefind you on social media? If you're
on there? Where can they findyour book? All the shout out,

(01:12:09):
all of the all the things allthe things. Yeah, thank you.
I'm grateful to have been here.My on social media, my website is
a road trip to Love dot comall one word. That's a whole nother
podcast story. And then social mediaInstagram, I'm pretty active on Facebook or
road Trips to Love as well.And my book. I'm so excited.

(01:12:30):
I just found out last week thatmy publisher is releasing my book this year
in paperback. Oh nice, Yeah, so raising LGBTQ Allies. It's available
now wherever books are sold, Amazon, independent Bookstores, bookstop dot org,
bookshop dot org. But it willbe it will be released this year in
paperback. So that's a whole likesofter covers. Yes, if you like

(01:12:55):
softer cover ye, yep, that'sfantastic. Yeah, thank you. I
am as always at Lauren Flans onTwitter and Blue Sky Lauren Underscore Flans on
Instagram. The podcast is at comingOut Pod. The hashtag is hashtag coming
out Pod and shout out to myincredible patrons. Thank you so much to

(01:13:15):
Carmel kaz Simone, Cayenne Michelle lAdri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran
Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Hernandezand beyond Clexa dot com. And as
I always say, if you wantto support the podcast for free, a
really great way to do that isto rate it five stars on either Apple

(01:13:38):
Podcast aka iTunes or on Spotify.That's about it, Chris, this was
such a pleasure. I really enjoyedhere. You're a good storyteller, speaking
of like you really I love thatstory, oh my goodness, and speaking
of love and romance. I willsee you all next week when it's Valentine

(01:14:00):
Mindes Day. Uh so yeah,so you all next Wednesday. Thank you. Bye.