Episode 289: Arohi Kumar

Arohi Kumar has been a HERstories participant for the past several years, and in that time, Lauren has seen her confidence and happiness grow exponentially! Arohi (whose identifiers include transfemme, poly, and "bi enough") is a child of Indian immigrants, and the prevalence of male/female separation when she was growing up led to her feeling ostracized on both ends. When it came to attraction, Arohi knew she was attracted to girls, but describes the experience as wanting to be "attracted to girls in the way lesbians are attracted to girls, which is like a very specific, different thing." We debate gender roles vs. gender, and muse on why so many people (including Arohi!) came to terms with their queerness during lockdown. Plus, we talk anxiety, dissociative identity disorder, and OCD...but in a fun, quirky way, like the fun, quirky girls we are!

(TW: discussion of suicidal ideation in childhood, but nothing descriptive)

Speaking of fun and quirky, Arohi made a fun, quirky board game! It's called Grad Rush, and you can check it out at grad-rush.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hi, y'all, welcome too,coming out pod. Okay, Queer Root
Shout Out Today is a little,a little dip back in the archives,
but an essential. I would callit shout out to you if your queer
root is Clea Duval as Graham inthe movie. But I'm a Cheerleader.

(00:28):
This is a nine late nineties movie. This is a queer classic if you've
never seen But I'm a Cheerleader.Natasha Leona is in it. Clid Deval
plays I would call I would saymask of center character named Graham. It's
a funny take on queer conversion camps. I know that doesn't that doesn't sound

(00:49):
funny, but it's like it's avery funny, campy movie. Rupe Paul
is in it. You try tosee it if you haven't seen it,
but yeah, the character of Grahamwas very notable for our community. Cleativall
famously an actual queer actress, friendswith Natasha Leone in real life. It's
a great movie and Grandma's a that'sa fox a character and no one actually

(01:12):
gets converted. It's a it's afunny movie. Okay, So y'all,
I am here today with a RohiKumar Hi, Rohi, Hi, Welcome.
We've been talking about having a Rohianfor a while, so as you
know, if you are a longtimelistener, I facilitate a group for the

(01:34):
LA LGBT Center called Her Stories,and Rohi is a long time participant,
what like three years, maybe two, two and a half something, I
think, so close like two.I feel like it feels weird because I'm
so on and off, but Imean I do come back on, so

(01:55):
yeah, pretty long. You arewhat I would call a regular. You
dip in and out, you havea life, you have activities going on.
But yeah, but you've definitely beeni'd say a fixture. But yeah.
So I know Rohie from years inHer Stories, and we've talked about
you coming on the podcast, andwe're finally making it happen. And I'm

(02:15):
excited because I don't know a lotabout about your story or your I feel
like I know you really well inthe sense of like being a participant,
but like we only talk about certainthings in Her Stories. We don't like,
you don't really get people's full stories. And the couple of other people
who I've spoken to on the podcasthave told me things that I was like
I had no idea, and that'sbeen very cool. Yeah, it's all

(02:38):
about the presence with the group,not the fast as much. Yes,
that's a great point. You getlike little glimpses into stuff as it comes
up. But there are like wholeass portions of people's lives that I'm unaware
of. And I'm also excited tohave you on because I feel like you're
someone who has like grown or likechanged so much in the time and like

(03:00):
in a really like positive dynamic wayin the time that I've known you,
which has been just like it's justbeen very cool. It's always cool to
like see yeah, just how peoplesort of progress over the years. Thank
you. But yeah, so Rowie, how do you identify? So?

(03:23):
I know the typical answers are likewithin you know, gender and nationality and
stuff. But I remember there's aYouTube video where someone was asked that on
like I don't know if you knowJubilee, but they yes, They're saying
like honest and quirky. I'm like, I like that. I'm gonna people

(03:43):
have identified as like dog mom,like those things are also identify her.
So I guess I am quirky stubborn, and I get and then the other
the normal ones or air quotes normalones, I guess like trans them by

(04:08):
enough Polly. Oh see, that'salready something I didn't know. I already
didn't know one of those. That'swhy I like, isn't the buy enough
for Polly? That's the Polly.I don't think I knew that. Yeah,
I mean I kind of. Imean we've talked about me having the
girlfriend. Yeah, especially for longdistance. Yeah, like you so I

(04:33):
have this and then I just giveup all potential in person everything because I
have that. And it's like andwe've I mean I kind of got introduced
to it because of her, becausewe were talking and it's like, you
know, hey, I have thisother person talking to and I was like,
I don't really see a big dealwith that. Absolutely, yeah,

(04:55):
So it just seemed like it seemedvery organic to just be like, that's
what's happening. I don't even seeit more. I feel like it I'm
barely Polly because I've had very littleexperience with I'm with her and also with
someone else. It was just verylike when she's not here, I might

(05:15):
be able to do other things,but totally, yeah, I don't have
enough. I don't know how peoplehave lifespan energy to just go, I'm
going to have a whole relationship andthen'll do another thing, like I can
barely like time my shoes sometimes Idon't care. I hear you. I
have zero relationships and I'm exhausted allthe time, So I am. I

(05:36):
don't know how folks do it,but yeah, I think it's it's definitely
like a temperament thing, and it'sso like Polly. There's obviously such a
wide spectrum, but some versions ofPolly feel to me like, well,
in like the fifties, that wasjust called dating, like that was just
like so much more common. Itfeels like to be dating multiple people before

(06:00):
like engagement a relationship, right yeah, yeah, But now it's like I
feel like we tend to go towardslike exclusive quote unquote relationships like a lot
sooner than like that dating around phasefeels like truncated nowadays. But also I'm
not in the dating pool, somaybe I could be like totally off.

(06:23):
I mean totally I think that.Oh, Like I don't know too much
about fifties especially, I don't knowwhy. I don't know why I pulled
fifties out of my ass, Butthat's no what I think. I don't
know, Like I guess another partof my identity is like an immigrant child,
Like I feel like a lot ofgrowing up I don't quite know this,

(06:47):
you know, dating or things likethat, even in an American context,
because like my parents, that's mosteveryone. They weren't an arranged marriage,
but like everyone around was, andthey weren't like dating. It was
just kind of like we were talkingfor seven years and then Dad was like,
you want to get married, andit's like okay. So it's very

(07:11):
like on or off where there isn'tthis like muddy territory. You're like you're
talking or you're married, and it'slike, how does that happen? Yeah?
I yeah, I think my becauseI feel like I've missed out on
a lot of like experiences growing upwith certain things. I feel like it

(07:33):
would be really weird to deprive myselfof like, yeah, oh, because
I have this thing, let mestop myself from doing any other thing.
And I guess even just that thoughtprocess is more freeing than if I said,
well, I have my girlfriend,I shouldn't try to like consider this

(07:54):
encounter or like, you know,this thing becomes a hookup or whatever,
like it's there are some you know, things that haven't gone well, but
I shouldn't stop myself from exploring.Yeah, yeah, and that Nicole would
always point to that where it's likebeing Polly doesn't mean like I'm one hundred
percent gonna like go out into it'sjust the it allows for that possibility and

(08:18):
that opportunity in the same way thatlike being by doesn't mean you are attracted
to every single person on the planet. It means you have the capacity to
be attracted. So it's not likeit's not a requirement, but Polly at
least allows for that chance. Andit's worth noting that in terms of long
distance, you two are multi country, right, Like, it's like that's

(08:39):
long long distance. So yeah,there's like long stretches obviously where you're not
gonna be able to see each otherbecause of that distance. So yeah,
that seems like a natural. Butsee, look, see I already learned
something and we're we're less than tenminutes in. That's why I like doing
this podcast. And I've known youfor like years and I didn't know that.
But yeah, so so let's haveme learn more things that I don't

(09:03):
know about you, oh, rohey, in your own words, tell
me what is your coming out store? Yeah, I think it probably started.
I think my earliest memory with beingtrans was my mom was doing something

(09:24):
and for some reason I had thislike fixation on my older sister's like bathing
suit at the time, I don'tknow, I was like five or six
or something, and I wanted tolike try it on really badly, and
I kept and I like looked aroundfor it and like put it on,
and then my mom walked in waslike, what are you doing? And

(09:45):
I was like and I think Istarted crying or something. But that was
like the earliest memory of something.And I asked my mom. She doesn't
seem to remember this at all,which it seems to be a few things
where I'm like this was really impactfulto me and I remember it, but
they're just like, what was this? That just seems to be it happens,
you know, And and even talkingto parents or other people, it's

(10:09):
like, well, kids just docrazy stuff. They don't you know.
It doesn't always be anything. They'lljust like put they'll just eat lipstick,
and it's like they don't want toyou know, it doesn't mean much.
So I don't know it was.It was a sign, it was a
thing. I think the fact thatyou remember it speaks to, yeah,
the significance of it. Yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, I think

(10:33):
I always I remember a lot oftimes hating the concept of growing up,
and I hated a lot of thegender stuff, like being called handsome.
You put a little boy in asuit and it's like, oh, they're
oh, you look so handsome,You're like grown man, and I'm like,
please don't do that, And Iknow that would be really painful.

(10:56):
And I think that the most Ihave I guess my queer root would be
mulan because that is like, yeah, I've even considered getting like a tattoo
from it because it just so itmade me cry so much growing up where
I'd hear reflection and I like,I just it. It was such a

(11:20):
recurring thing in my head of likeI feel that and I didn't know it
was being trans I do know thatthere was a lot of times where I'd
be like, the way I amis not reflected in the way people treat
me, and that there's some dichotomyin that. And I don't know if,
like, in a more equal society, what I've even been trans like

(11:41):
because there's some stuff that's just genderroles, right, like yep, if
I was just hey, I seemto be I act more like this or
I don't want to be in thislike social situation because you you know,
all the at least when I wasgrowing up, is very like all the
guys go in this corner, allthe girls go in this corner, and

(12:03):
you hang out with all the guys, and like I don't get along with
that, and I sure feel likeyeah, so that was like kind of
I would try to go to thegirl's side and it would just kind of
be like I was ostracized on bothends, and oh gotcha. But it
sounds like you were responding more tolike like you're saying the socializing gender roles

(12:28):
aspect of gender than the like physicallike there were both were both. There
were both. There were both.I think that I hated when I thought
of growing up and having like allthe body stuff like having a beard and
having having like a deeper voice.I think during puberty I really tried to

(12:54):
make my voice not deep, andI ended up with this weird like this
is like it odd like a musictechnicality thing that I have, like the
high pitched voice but low resonance,so it kind of sounds like you know
how goofy sounds, where it's like, ah, so I feel like that's
a that's kind of I don't I'mnot like literally like that, but it

(13:16):
was. That's so interesting. Youwere like physically trying to fight against like
what your body was. Yeah,in the way that you could. Yeah,
because your voice you kind of havesome control over. Unlike, you
can't stop your body from like growingwhatever it's going to grow, but your
voice you can at least exercise alittle bit of, like, yeah,

(13:37):
autonomy over. I don't think Iwas very conscious of it, but I
remember getting annoyed when it got deeper, cracked and stuff like that, And
that was it seemed like I wastrying to control aspects of that. I've
grow I grew into just being likeI had a higher pitch voice than most
guys. But then once I transitioned, I was like, Okay, now

(14:00):
this is how I actually get itto be higher resonance too, and now
hopefully it sounds okay, I'll hearon the recording age yeah well no maybe
no no, no, no,well God, as someone who has to
listen to their voice every goddamn week. It is never I'm never like it
sounds how I want it to sound. So that's a given for anybody.
But yeah, I seeing you inher stories over the years, and especially

(14:24):
like you say, when you'll likepop in after like a month or two
away, like, yeah, thenoticeable difference in in your in your vocalizations
and like in the picture voice whichhas been really cool, which has just
been really cool too observed. Soyeah, I think that I've noticed that
a lot of people have different kindof things they latch onto with, what
transition, what aspects of it botherthem more or not. Like I think

(14:50):
like I've talked to my sister andshe's like, why haven't you gotten on
your name change stuff? And I'mlike, it's I mean, it matters,
but it's like the relative effort feelslike it doesn't make the huge yeah,
whereas this feels like it mattered tome more. And you know,
So that's like, yeah, Ijust it's something I've noticed that everyone's a

(15:11):
little different where they're at that.Yeah. No, that is a good
point about what what it what sortof leads the the the push in terms
of because for some people, it'slike like you're saying, it's getting that
name change on their license is likesuch a big thing. And then for
other folks, it's like you're saying, it's like having a voice that they

(15:33):
can listen back to and be likeokay, Like so it is, it's
so specific to the individual and sortof what's what's driving the charge. But
yeah, but I made you.I know, we like have now jumped
ahead, so we're gonna go buckedone. You're a kid, so yeah,
so what sort of that feels like? Maybe middle school when it's like

(15:56):
boys are here and girls are hereand you're feeling kind of not I mean,
even as I think, I don'tknow if this is a byproduct of
the Indian immigrants, like community stuffI was a part of, but I
feel like most of my life itwas segregated in some way, not entirely.
Like I feel like as young asyou know, six or seven,

(16:21):
I was, it was already likeeither I was clinging to my parents or
it's like, oh, go hangout with the kids. But then the
kids would separate themselves into boys andgirls, and the middle school you know,
happened in school too. In school, I feel like there was actually
less of the gender segregation. Butwhen I whenever it was like the Indian

(16:42):
community stuff, there would be yeah, all the boys would hang out together.
So that okay, so what atthis time that's still really young.
So at what point, if any, does sexuality or sexual feelings start to

(17:03):
come into it in terms of likeattraction, Because it sounds like so gender
stuff is in play since like earlychildhood, but we as we as like
people don't really start experiencing like likeattraction that we know is like like not
quote unquote not the right kind ofattraction until we're like a little older and

(17:25):
we have that understanding. So Imean, as a lot of transfeen lesbians
could sympathize with, there's like thisnotion of it's like he wants you're attracted
to girls, but then it's like, well, I want to be attracted
to girls in the way lesbians areattracted. Yes, it's like a very
specific different thing, and I'm like, I don't know it it's it's like

(17:48):
a I think there was also alot of I don't know, I felt
very uh jaded with guyness, notonly in the trans stuff, but in
just like it was like I wasconstantly kind of pointed at as like being
creepy or harassing people, and I'mjust kind of existing, and I'm like,

(18:08):
well, if I was a girland then I was around a girl,
it wouldn't be even be a thing. So I think there's a lot
of stuff that's kind of big togetherfor me that it's hard to separate,
like what's trans and what's the genderroles? Like I was depressed for most
of my childhood until like fourteen orfifteen, and so like you see me

(18:32):
now and I'm like uppitta and quirky, and I try to I've been trying
to, you know, be morelively, and probably I see you guys
when I am more lively, Butthere are lots of times where I'm like,
I don't know. Life's kind ofbut I think past there was a
point in high school where I doI kind of started turning that around because

(18:55):
I got engaged in the music programand that gave me a lot more purpose.
But there's mental health and stuff kindof it's really muddy, you know,
yeah, absolutely, yeah. Interms of like your friendships at that
time, did those feel like fulfillingto you or were you still having that

(19:17):
thing where it's like I would Iwant to socialize with girls, but it's
like I'm meant to my closer friendsare supposed to make guys or like for
people being raised as male, there'sthat thing anyway where you're not really like
supposed to have like super close friendsanyway, like you don't need that,
like you're a lone wolf or whatever, or like talking like I got raised

(19:38):
that way. I did it,and I don't know, but it does
feel like there's a lot less emphasison male friendships than female friendships. I
do think. I I do stillfeel even to this day like very lone
wolf y where I kind of amlike I don't know how to go warner

(20:00):
that I don't know how to tosustain those relationships. But yeah, it's
like with male friendships there they existand they're you're in front of them,
and then sometimes they can be Someof them were good, but I don't
know. I feel like I hadIf I look back in totality, I
feel like I had very few friends. But I mean the moments where I

(20:21):
did, it's it wasn't all bad, I guess. I don't know,
it's just it's it's hard to knowI was so like I guess, like
like what I was saying about beingdepressed my whole life, like I was
basically suicidal for most of my childhood. I don't think I was. It

(20:45):
was I kind of had the wholeLike I remember pretty early on like elementary
school or something, I was likethinking through the process of suicide and then
I thought about writing like a note, and then I was like, oh,
but then my parents would read itand they get really sad. And
then I just decided, like,well, the point of existing is to

(21:07):
not make waves or not hurt otherpeople. And I feel like that was
a big thing for me growing goingforward and even with coming out, Like
it's like, oh, but thatwould make a big issue of things where
there isn't an issue, like likeeven just like advocating for myself has to

(21:27):
come before thinking about like, oh, this is going to cause them.
Absolutely. I've heard that on thepodcast. I've heard that a lot from
first gen kids of immigrant parents,because it's like that I don't know if
this resonates for you, but likethat pressure of like the parents sort of

(21:48):
raised the child with the like evenif they're not doing it consciously, this
idea of like we made this epicmove to this country so you could have
a better life. Keep your fuckinghead down, like don't like you're saying,
don't make waves, just like assimilate. Like there's like such a And
I've heard a lot of guests speakto like that idea of trying not to

(22:14):
stand out too much because they grewup with this sense of like fit in
with your surroundings. And I'm wonderingif that fields at all. I think,
I mean, to some degree,I do know I had a lot
of pressure about while growing up.It's like, you know, I would
get some kind of lecture about likewhy are your graades so bad? Why
do we even move to this countryif you're gonna have bad Like it's not

(22:37):
like it wasn't literally like that allthe time, but you know it's not,
I guess with I don't know howmuch I've talked about this in the
group, but like I have toassociate of identity disorder, which makes everything
really hard to like parse and rememberproperly because it feels like it's basically it's

(23:03):
it's the new version of multiple personality, but it's not hollywooded, so okay,
So like I feel to talk aboutthat alone. I'm not sure.
I under I'm super familiar. Yeah, it's kind of I feel like I've
had a lot less of it overtime, and I don't know how much

(23:27):
this is, you know, withtrans stuff or whatnot, but it's,
uh, it's essentially like what weused to call multiple personality at the extreme
end, you know, you havelike distinct personalities in your head kind of
yeah, buying for control, buta lot of it definitionally leans more towards

(23:47):
just like episodes of dissociation. Soyou have like moments where you just kind
of turn your brain off and gonumb and like air quotes, another person
takes over, Oh okay, andyou're it's it's almost like you're kind of
looking at someone autopiloting your body andthen you're just like existing. And I've

(24:07):
had a lot of times where there'sthere's parts of it that are like,
oh, I just like have justgiant chunks of memory loss with when I
was growing up where I'm like,I don't remember doing this at all.
But there's also stuff where I rememberlike hearing voices when I was like nine

(24:29):
or something, and I was likeyelling at them to stop, and my
parents were like rushing over and they'relike, we're not saying anything. I'm
like, I know you're not,but I and so I talked to my
mom about that too, and sheseems to not remember. So I'm like,
I feel like that should be amemorable thing. Yeah, it sounds
like there might be some repression happeningon her end in terms of not remembering

(24:53):
any of the things that are thestickier things to deal with. Maybe.
Yeah, no, I'm not tryingto throw under the bus, Like no,
I know she has a lot ofher own trauma life backstory stuff too,
Like everyone has has something, soI don't want to blame her for
it or anything, but it doesn'tseem like it's like so much. Yeah.

(25:19):
I think with when I've gone throughtherapy, it's hard to know what
aspects are affecting what things. AndI don't even know. It seems like
from our current understanding of medicine,it's like, oh, this is usually
affected by some big trauma event,but I don't know what the trauma event

(25:40):
is or if I had one.And it's like, so I'm not even
sure, like is the trans enough, the trans stuff enough to be the
trauma or is that or is thatjust like it just happened. I'm not
sure, but I know, yeah, being having all those feelings of like

(26:03):
depression and suicide and stuff that makeit feel like I don't know, I
kind of just like numbly existed fora long time and was like, well,
it's kind of bad to stop existingthat hurts people. But if I
like exist in a way that's likehurtful to people, I can't really do
certain. It's just it just kindof I'm like I have to be at

(26:25):
this particular balance so much for akid to carrie like, gee, did
were you because we because I you'vementioned therapy several times, which, as
you now, huge fan, Ihave therapy this week. Ooh it's tomorrow,
I think. Anyway, Sorry,that's either here nor there. The
point is, huge fan of therapy. Did you do express any of this

(26:51):
to your parents to the point wherethey tried to get you help? Which
I asked because I famously was.I started therapy for obsessed with compulsive disorder
and jermophobia at I think maybe liketwelve, like I was young. I
mean I was in middle school whenI started going to a child psychologist and

(27:11):
went until early high school. Soit was like, my stuff reached a
point where I spoke to my parentsabout it and they were like, oh,
we gotta get you a professional.And I'm wondering if, like,
did you conceal all of this ordid you at any point express it and
did your parents try to get youany kind of mental health help? Okay,

(27:33):
there's there's a lot going on there. Well, first of all,
I mean, just like you learnedabout me, I didn't know that you
had, like oh yeah, yeah, that does clarify some of your COVID
behaviors. Sure, but also you'reallowed I mean, you're allowed to have
feelings about I've always like because you'vebeen on COVID lockdown than anyone I know.

(27:56):
Yeah, and I did an episodeabout it as well. Yeah,
and that is such a line towalk because it's like it's definitely influenced by
my OCD and germophobia, and Iwould never try to be like these two
things are fully separate. But atthe same time, there are a bunch
of people in my group who don'thave that at all and are just like,
we feel the same way because ofthese facts. So it's like I

(28:18):
feel like I lose credibility when Italk about it, like with my friends
or my parents or whatever, becauseof my history of those things, and
I'm like, ah, fuck,that's like I'm not gonna pretend that doesn't
play into it and make me likemore hyper aware. But it's also like
what I'm saying is still true,so I feel very nicere No, No,

(28:41):
I'm not saying that for you.I'm saying like, that's something that
I struggle with in terms of Ifeel like I'm not the best messenger to
try to like tell people about COVIDbecause they're like, yeah, but you've
you've never drunk out of somebody else'sdrinks. So it's like, I'm ah,
it's hard for me to play thatrole of like gotcha, yeah,

(29:03):
So I try to get other peopleto do that because I'm like, I
got no credibility. I mean,it's spread the be to know that for
further. Whenever I encounter you inperson, I feel like, I,
yeah, no, I've been I'vethe OCD germophobia stuff for me was from
when I was like a little yeahthat that that stuff was early. That

(29:26):
stuff was early, and once Idid tell my parents about it because it
got to the point where it waslike it was like interfering with my life,
Like I would change and this isn'tgermophobia, this is OCD. But
I remember like I would change answerson tests because I'd like write the right
answer, and then a voice inmy head would be like, if you
don't change that eight two a nine, your parents are gonna die. So

(29:48):
I'd like erase the correct answer andput the wrong answer like, thus fucked
up. And eventually it got tothe point where I was doing stuff like
that so much that I like hadto tell my pay parents because it was
like my head was too busy,there was too much going on, and
I also am an overachiever. Ididn't like getting worse grades. So I
told them, and as soon asthey knew, they were like, oh

(30:11):
no, like this is like Ithink they recognized the severity of it in
a way that maybe even I didn't, and so they like they got me
some help once they knew that.So I'm just wondering, Yeah, yeah,
going back to your question, Iguess I don't know that I didn't
express like these all these things directly. I was pretty bad at communicating,

(30:37):
and I felt like there was alot of I mean, part of it
was feeling like I was, youknow, making it difficult for other people.
So I felt like, I mean, if I did go to therapy,
that probably would have been a thing. But there's a lot of I
know that partly. Both my parentswere really busy immigrant family. Yeah,

(31:00):
so like there was a lot ofstuff growing up where I didn't even have
time to do like uh, likeI don't know. I remember where I
had this time where my mom waslike, oh, yeah, you have
eggzema, and then it took uslike three months before we went to the
doctor to get a prescription for it. Where it's just like I don't know

(31:21):
if they had I mean that's mymemory of it. Maybe I'm wrong,
but it's like I don't know ifthey had a lot of time for it.
I do know that they tried tosuss out a lot of things about
me being gay because that was theirperception, right, like yeah, feminine
guy who was like, oh Iwant to try on your heels or oh

(31:44):
I want to like dress in thisthing, and they my mom and sister
were like asking throughout my life likedo you like guys? And I'm like
that's not really on my mind.I feel like you're standing of gen at
that, like the difference between gendersexual they were just non existent. But
I don't know it's totally fair.I don't know. I think like there

(32:10):
was this weird point where I don'tknow why my mom never just directly like
got me therapy or our counselor orwhatever. But there was some point where
one of my my uncle passed awayand I wasn't close to him at all.
But then my mom like told someoneat the school to like check in

(32:30):
on me, and they had likea counselor thing. So around like sixteen
is when I start did like afew little like you know, support counselor
things that the school provided, andI talked like, I didn't talk about
the uncle at all. I justtalked about like a bunch of other just

(32:52):
anxiety stuff, yeah, stuff there. And then I formally I went to
college and I had a panic attackin the middle of a class. Went
to like an emergency room, thoughtI had a heart attack, and they
were like, gosh, WAS like, no, that's just you know,

(33:14):
there's nothing wrong with you. Youshould go to a therapist or something.
And so I kind of just followedthrough on that on my own that wasn't
really as directly from my parents,and then very slowly over time it was
like unpacking, like I'm anxious allthe time and I could I could barely
talk and it was so hard,like I would I would say like two

(33:38):
words and then burst into tears becauseit was just like this. So there
was just so much happening. Yeah, And at some point, I think
fairly early on, my therapist askedme, like to do a little homework
assignment or not a not a homework. It was just like in the moment
because I struggled so much to eventalk without like crying, she was like,

(34:00):
Okay, let's write, like,just write down three things that you
want out of life. And Idon't remember what I wrote, but I
I wrote I want to be agirl, and then crossed it out really
heavily, and then I wrote someother stuff. Wow. She kept pestering
me about like what did you crossout? And so near the end of

(34:22):
the session, I had just barelykind of admitted to it and felt so
bad and so guilty, and thenshe's like and then we kept she it
kind of kept going doing this likepeeking in and out of the closet thing
where I like go long stretches ofnot admitting it, and then she kind
of like she wouldn't bring it upreally, but then I kind of like,

(34:46):
you know, mention something about it, or I had like a lot
of times where I wanted to tryon girls' clothes. That was a thing
for me a lot, And soI would talk to her about, you
know, just all the other anxietystuff, and then we just eventually come

(35:07):
back to what are your feelings aboutthe you know, wanting to dress up
this way or wanting to be thisway, And she'd be very like,
you know, there's nothing wrong withit, and I'm like, yeah,
there is something that's wrong with it, and I don't. I still I
feel like I have a lot ofI don't have an exact root of where

(35:30):
it is or what it is,but like the internalized transphobia of like,
oh, I'm still kind of youknow, a guy dressing up and pretending
that root is called society and culture. Yeah, so it's there's there's some
stuff like that. And I mean, even even to this day, I'll
like look in a mirror or lookat other trans people and I'm like,

(35:52):
you're just faking it like I don'tknow, there's it's not good as a
thought, but it is like athought that comes up, and so yeah,
I think that was That was kindof It was partly that and partly
like like with you know, withmedia and stuff, it's like the laughing
stock of a lot of you know, jokes and things. To dress up
as a girl. It's just likea thing. And then so I was

(36:15):
like I I did as it seemslike a lot of queer people do.
They kind of dip their toes inand then go like, oh, I'm
satisfied now I don't have to doit at all. Yeah, and then
I just yeah, like I wouldlike dress up for a little bit.

(36:36):
Sometimes I do it more secretively.I think my mom kind of learned about
it at some point. I don'tremember if I was trying to actively share
it or whatnot, but I Ihad like gone to stores and tried on
girls clothes and then like I boughta few, wore them in my room

(36:57):
sometimes, and then a month ortwo passed and I looked at them like
why do I have these? Andlike throw them away and then I just
do like another year and then Ido that again. So I've totally hurt.
I think it was an early episode. I think Kira was was our
guest, but like she talked aboutlike the binging and purging of outfits.

(37:20):
So it's like she'd like buy abunch of women's clothing and then there'd come
a moment where she'd be like,this is bad. I afterget and she'd
get rid of all of it,and then a few months later the cycle
would happened again and yeah. Yeah, So that that went on a few
times. And I think because Iwas in college, there were some moments
where it was like very accepted bymy peers, and I don't I had

(37:43):
this like conflicted like why is thisa big deal in my head when it
seems like it's not in totality abig deal. Like it's it's like I
had a I was a queer allysince a like middle school or high school.
You know, you know the stories. Listen, we need all the

(38:04):
allies we can get. It doesn'tmatter what what part of their own journey
they're at their Yeah, So likeI was, I was a very active
advocate for that. That's awesome.I I don't know. I have this
like vague memory of the first timeI learned about gay marriage, and like

(38:30):
it was on some news story andI was like, oh, that's weird.
And then my mom was like,why is that weird? And I
was like, I don't know,it just seems weird. And then she's
like, they're just people who wantto get married wou and a girl,
and I'm impressed. Yeah, SoI mean that's that's kind of like somehow

(38:54):
up until that point, I hadgotten like somewhere, oh that's weird,
but then it seemed like my familywas just like, yeah, they're doing
things. So that was you know, the the gay marriage discussions of like
the two thousands whenever that happened.But yeah, like later on at some

(39:17):
point, it's kind of hazy inmy mind when it kind of all overlaps
because I would dress up a littlebit and then I started occasionally going out
in clothes like that, and ohthat's a huge step, I feel.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Iwent a few times, I like went
to the mall or something like justdressed up like that, like not trying

(39:38):
to do anything, just you know, like walking around. And my mom
learned about it, and she waslike kind of weirded out of first,
because I think, you know,it's it's different, and at some point
she's just like she kind of assedit. And by the time I came

(40:01):
out, she's like, I knowwhat this is, but I'll let you,
you know, do your thing,okay. So yeah, I came
out in a funny way. I'mjumping all over the place. Sorry,
no, I'm trying to be sequentious. That's how this stuff happens. Though.
It's like it does jump all overthe place, like just naturally,

(40:22):
because then you realize something like ohthat back there was an indicator, but
it didn't see yeah, no,this is yeah. So so I basically
just trying to go in order.I had done that several times. I'd
gone out and I had started Ihad gone to some classes dressed up like

(40:44):
that, and I had like aparticular professor whom it was like a feminist
studies class, and she was verycool and all like I dressed up in
a dress and everyone was cool withit. And it seems and I don't

(41:04):
remember why, but like I seemedreally happy and upbeat. And then somehow
like that and then the next youknow year, I kind of phased back
into like putting it away for abit and then I think I think I
went again in college and someone cameup to me and had asked me like,

(41:32):
like because I was dressed up adifferent way, and he was just
like we weren't like close, buthe was just asked me like, hey,
do you want me to like callyou by different pronouns or names or
something? And I'm like, Iwas kind of confused and I didn't.
I'm like, I'm just dressing uplike this and he's like, uh,

(41:53):
He's like, okay, I meanif you want to, you know whatever.
But I think that was actually thefirst time I was like directly asked
of me where I die. Yeah, I like this guy that's really like
that guy was on the cutting edge. Yeah, So it was just you
know, college is a very interestingtime for a lot of people, just

(42:15):
lots of exposure to different mindsets,and so yeah, I think that was
something where I it wasn't like abig thing in the moment, but I
think it seemed to have stuck withme because then I'm like, oh,
maybe this is more than just thedressing up, and like it did you

(42:37):
know there there are like we saidearlier, with the gender roles versus the
physical aspects I do have like desiresabout physical stuff, and I do have
like, oh I wish I grewup this way. But there is a
degree that if you talk to you'vetalked to trans people, but there's like
some amount of there's some amount thatlike, oh, ideal society, I

(43:00):
wouldn't care about the existence of boomsand I'm sure, no, I'm not
here. Sure maybe I would,I'm not, I'm not. Like there's
also it's it's such an intellectual argumentbecause there's no way we don't live in
that society, so like whether ornot, Like we don't live in a
vacuum. So those are maybe funthought experiments, but at the end of

(43:21):
the day, they don't influence ourreal life because they're not possible. We
don't live in that society. Soit's like so hard, like you're saying
to parse out what is and whatisn't. It's all it's all in the
pot. Like like being treated closeto the gender role of woman while not
being well being called he him wouldbe like how would you? It feels

(43:44):
like it would be so weird,Like saying I'm she her automatically comes with
a whole bunch of others. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so yeah,
I basically just dipped in and outand and I think it was when
Quarantine hit and I was I wasin I was kind of in this like

(44:09):
very guy friend group for a bit. It wasn't like all guys, but
it was just very like it waslike you know, guys and their girlfriends
and stuff, but it was likeguy oriented, like massive guy energy.
Yeah, guy energy. And fora while I was with them and I

(44:30):
kind of and they were accepting ofsome like I. There was one time
where we're at a store and Iwas like trying on the girl's jacket and
I was trying to not make abig deal of him, like, but
it's it's cool jacket. You canwear it as a guy. It's not
a what's it's not weird. Butthey they didn't make a big deal about

(44:51):
it actually, and when I dideventually come out to them, they were
like, not it wasn't a bigit was like totally fine. But but
the thing with I think there wasalso a lot of like social expectations of
being because it was like this,I was identifying as a guy, thus
treat me like this, But onceI identify as a girl, the street

(45:12):
like It's like I couldn't be aguy. I couldn't simultaneously identify as a
guy and be treated more gently,Like because I'm a guy, you have
to like yag me and like pushme. It's like, okay, I
guess this is just what it is. And once I was in quarantine,
I was kind of away from themfor a while and had my own space,
and I kept talking to my therapistover zoom and stuff, and I

(45:37):
kind of I kind of it hitthis weird point where it seems very intellectualized
to say it like this, butit was just like, okay, well,
trans this means I don't fit gendernorms, and I don't fit gender
norms, thus I am somewhere onthe spectrum of trans. And then I

(46:00):
said that, and I'm like,okay, and that's that's what that must
be. I don't know exactly where, but I know that, like deafly,
I've hit the threshold of the sis, right like that. That's kind
of was like I was just sayingit out loud to my therapist and going
back and forth, and I thinkshe was asking me, like, why

(46:21):
don't what makes you not feel likeyou're trans? And I was like I
don't. It's like you have tobe trans enough, like you have to
get some point where now you're trans. And I kept feeling like, oh,
but I don't feel like I needthis, like I don't want the
surgery or I don't want this thing, or it's like, oh, that's
that's what it means to be trans. But once I'm like, it's just

(46:44):
whatever, like sis people don't thinkabout having boobs, thus it must be
some trans thing. And now I'velearned more about you know, there's the
spectrum and all that. Yes,there's a spectrum. And also that impostor
center feel or whatever you want tocall it is such a part of so
many people's queer experience. I justtalked about this with last week's guess Carbon,

(47:07):
where she felt weird identifying as PANuntil she had been in a relationship
with a woman and it's like,but you're actively attracted to but she but
she still felt like it wasn't validenough because she had it like bit it
or like that was her threshold.Everyone's threshold is different. Some people's threshold

(47:30):
is like, well, I haven'thad sex with any of us, so
like and it's like you can identifyhis pad like you're actively attracted to other
but but everyone has this like imaginarythreat it's not even imaginary. Society sort
of gets on you too about itbecause especially with transness, a lot of
people are like, well, ifyou don't fully transition, like you're not
trans like, then what is thatYou're just like saying you are just like

(47:52):
that's a spectrum, like you're sayingit's different for everybody. But but that
pressure is, oh yeah, feelthat. I think that is that is
the to do to a degree,like I mean kind of back to that
whole making waves thing of like ifI kind of transition and then go back
on it like well when I makea bigger deal than if I And it's

(48:15):
not, like you know, detransitioningexists in like a extraordinarily small margin.
So there was there was those thosethings. And basically right after I had
that conversation with my therapist from likeI guess I'm somewhere on the trans spectrum
and we said that, and thenI think like within the week I had

(48:39):
called like, our family is weird. We're like very because my dad's like
a business owner. He does thingsin a very like business ye way,
we have like family meetings and he'lllike have lectures about why we did bad
on the report card, like welabeled things in a very specific way.
And so like I call the familymeeting, which is very rare. I've

(49:00):
never done that. So I Ibecause, like my sister wasn't living with
us at the time. She hasn'tbeen in a long time, but like
she she's you know, living onher own. So I'm like, I
want her. I don't want tolike say the same thing fifteen times.
Yeah, so I don't want to, like and also it gives kind of
a more pressure to like have anappointment because then you bring everyone, They're

(49:23):
like looking at you, like whatdo you want to talk about? Like,
because they'll chicken out if I justtry to bring it up during dinner.
Yeah, And so then I didit, and it was like very
nerve wracking. And then I youknow, I said, like I brought
everyone together, and I'm like,I think I'm trans And there was you

(49:46):
know a lot of back and forthand talk and Mom was like, yeah,
that's that's what I figured it waswhen you said there's a family meeting,
like there wouldn't really be much elseto talk about, And there was
kind of this ambiguity with like thatI think on trans and there was like
it gave me out to be likemaybe all back out of this, But

(50:08):
over time it's just like I've settledinto everyone's like this is what it is,
you know. But yeah, Imean, even building up to before
that initial that coming out point,I think there were a few times where
my little things would like seem oddto I remember my sister had like a

(50:34):
conversation with me where she had seenme like dress up and I had my
nails done one time, and duringthat conversation, I wasn't dressed up,
but I saw my nails done,and she's like she was kind of weirded
out by it, and she waskind of like asking certain things of like
uh, And I was kind oflike, why is it weird? Like

(50:58):
what is it that's making it sojust like, well, if you know,
Dad started dressing up, wouldn't thatseem like a little off or something?
And I'm like, I mean,I guess because to me what I
said was just like I mean,it might affect his business, but it's
like whatever. So to me,I seem to have gotten to a point
there where it didn't it doesn't seemto affect me that much when it's another

(51:21):
person, but it's a big thingin my head if it's me. But
like, yeah, so, Andit's interesting because with the whole gender or
sexuality thing. She came out asby and I have like no memory of
when she came out. It's justat some point, at some point in
high school, she was in college, it came up and I'm like cool,

(51:45):
and then I moved on with mylife. I don't remember any of
it. And it feels like itwas a really big deal for me coming
out as trans and were there yetwith it? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
and I get it. I meanthere's a lot of things. I
feel like once I came out,all of my family they're all very awesome,

(52:08):
and they all kind of did theirown little research here and there.
Oh that's great. Yeah, whenyou don't have to sort of handhold and
they'll like do their own, that'sgood. I think my mom briefly was
like you know, falling for youknow, as as all the there's all
the propaganda going around. There waslike that d Transition documentary, and she

(52:30):
shared that with me briefly. Yeah, that's the parent fear thing where it's
like, but what if this happensand it's yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, So I think that's yeah, that's the point where I came out
as a trans. I feel likeI didn't have exactly I didn't definite I

(52:55):
haven't really come out as buy orPolly. So if family friends are listening,
congratulations, whatever, I don't.I don't know, it's I feel
like buy stuff. It kind offelt like, well, I didn't change
any attraction towards women when I becametrans or identified as I'm being PC towards

(53:23):
myself, so yeah, like itdidn't change that. So my mom asked
me, like, where do youfeel like with this like sexuality or does
that change anything? And I'm like, I guess i'd say I'm lesbian,

(53:43):
but it feels like there's been more. I feel like this is a pretty
universal thing with trans people actually,where their sexuality changes throughout the course of
transitioning at some point. And Iknow I'm talking to a lot of guests
who have become again who would startidentifying as by once they start transitioning and

(54:07):
it and they're always like kind ofsurprised by Yeah, I think there's some
aspect of hormones, yeah, mightplay a factor. I do know.
I have had like a few crushesgrowing up that I guess retroactively. I
can go like, oh, thatwas probably a crush on a guy,
but I just thought of like,oh, I really admire him, and

(54:30):
I'm just like he's so cool.My like first high school crush was on
a girl and I was like,really it was a whole bunch of feelings
around that, but like her olderbrother I also knew, and I was
like, he's also very cute.And then like later I met their older

(54:52):
sister, of like what why isthis whole fah my god, you found
your type and it's that particular family. It's like, uh so they all
made me. It's just like,you know, make me feel feeling.

(55:12):
So it seemed to be that's whateveryou know when people talk about being pan
and it's like the personality first orwhatever that seemed to have been wherever what
I ended up being there because itseemed like they were all kind of around
the same, not like literally thesame, but you know, personality or
type of way of thinking. Andthen I just was like all of them

(55:36):
were attractive, So you know,there's I haven't had that many I haven't
had like basically any experience with guysromantically or sexually. I feel like I've
had thoughts, and that's probably likeI said bye enough, like the same

(56:00):
way that I felt like I wasn'ttrans enough for a long time, like
I'm by enough, Like if theif trans is like past a certain threshold
of that most CIS people don't thinkX like most straight people don't occasionally think
about this. So I'm just like, eh, I guess that's there.
I don't know if it's gonna be. It seems to kind of be more

(56:22):
in flux, Like I'm very consistentlyattracted to girls, but guys it seems
to come and go and then likeyou know, there's a whole complication of
nb's or they mess up all themath equations. Do you remember when you
you sought out her stories? Wasit like shortly after the family meeting or

(56:50):
man it was it was it duringthe pandemic? Still? Yeah? Oh
yeah, it was like during likeactual lockdown is my memory of what I
first met you. So that's whyI was wondering if it was like shortly
after that sort of coming out thatyou were like, no, I want
community yeah, I think it was. I think it might have been.

(57:16):
It might have been pretty soon afterthat. I think there was a period
where I was talking to my therapistand she kind of recommended like maybe that
would help and like having some kindof group and like I've done. I
had a group therapy thing before incollege, and it's like, you know,

(57:37):
it's kind of nice to see otherpeople and not feel so much like
because with therapy you kind of talkand you're like, oh, I'm just
I'm the crazy person here, andthis like specialist has to come help me.
But it's like we go to agroup therapy and it's like we're all
crazy. We're all crazy. Andthen Laura, the specialists who helped,

(58:02):
I'm also a crazy person. Soit's literally the it's running the Ashylah.
So I think it was. Itwas like maybe six or seven months,
like a most after. I don'tI don't think it was. It wasn't
me. It was the media,but I did, like, I you

(58:23):
know, came out kind of dressedup somewhat, and I was looking into
different aspects of transition, Like thevoice thing was a big thing I jumped
on and tried to but there wasn'ta lot I could do in the quarantine
in terms of like social transition,because you don't. Yeah. Yeah,

(58:45):
so there was some stuff that waslike very theoretical or like in my head
where I couldn't even really know.But yeah, I think from what I've
heard, it seems like the quarantinehelped a lot of people kind of take
a step. We increased our numbersduring quarantine, There's no, there's no
denying it. The queer community likegained a couple percentage points. Yeah,

(59:07):
so it's good to it's kind ofweird. There's a lot of people I've
heard from who's you know, whenthey didn't, you know, have any
big coming out thing. It's like, oh, this was really traumatic,
almost like it really messed up theirsocial life. But for some people,
it's like they gotta step out ofthe structure, and that's why queer people

(59:30):
created the COVID virus. As Ikeep saying on my conspiracy theory point,
No, it is fully true.I spoken to so many guests who that
was their experience. It's like oncethey were able to step out of like

(59:50):
expectations and like all that stuff andjust sort of sit more quietly with like
their inner voice and feelings. Theywere like, oh, oh, I'm
having awareness and in some cases multistep awareness. It's like so yeah,
that definitely yeah. I mean evenI think it was before it was it
was a little bit before the quarantine. I was like working with my dad

(01:00:15):
and he wanted me to like dressup in a suit every day, and
it's so upset, like yeah,it's like that kind of that kind of
pressure just like gets on you andthen you step away and you're like,
yep, I know that people youlike. For a long time in my
life, everyone's like it seemed likeI just didn't like dressing up. But

(01:00:37):
now it seems like, for themost part, I like dressing up for
like certain occasions, but it justhas to be the right kind of dressing
up. And yeah, that wasnever really like explored enough, and that
all that stuff like you're saying isalso so it feels to me at least
more like gender roles than gender becauseI someone who as far as I know,

(01:01:00):
I don't like, I feel prettyconfident like I'm a CIS woman,
But I get the closest I experiencedwith like body dysmorphy or anything is when
I have to wear a dress.I'd also feel very uncomfortable if I ever
had to get my nails done.So it's like those things to me make
me feel but that doesn't I don'thave that gender confusion. That's like a

(01:01:22):
gender role thing like I'm finding likea skirt, but a dress for some
reason makes me feel like I don'twant to wear a dress, like I
don't want to paint my nails.So it's like I don't know where that
comes from and the difference between genderversus gender roles or like it's all so
confusing. Honestly, Yeah, Ithink there is a bigger there's a bigger

(01:01:43):
breath for CIS woman versus this menof like expression for sure, space and
for sure. Yeah, like alot of I think there are a lot
of girls who are just like Idon't like this part or I don't like
that part. Yeah, that wasthat was something I think like a lot

(01:02:04):
of times growing up as a guy, when you express certain things, it's
kind of like it some parts ofwhere I was just saying stuff that could
be identified as trains. It couldjust be like, I don't know,
mildly sexist or almost like we're yeah, oh, girls have it easier when
they do this and it's like,Oh, you don't understand because you're a

(01:02:27):
guy, and I'm like, well, but you do have it easier,
Like yeah, I would because it'shard. It's all still really muddy.
It's not ever going to like notbe muddy, but I feel like it's
extra muddy right now because we havewe're like in the gender revolution, not
as opposed to like looking back onit, it's like, I think we're
still very much in it. Yeah, was there any part of the I

(01:02:52):
feel like I've gone through most ofthe arc? I guess, like I
mean, I met my girlfriend onlineand then yeah, we talked, and
then I'm like, oh, you'rein the across the pond, as they
say, I'm a big across thepond, you know. So I think
that's that's a still kind of figuringthat out in life wise. But she

(01:03:16):
came over and yeah, family isreally great. Everything. She seemed like
to get exponentially happier throughout the trip. So I think that's most of my
story chronologically. If I don't knowif there's any holes in it, No,
I think you did. I thinkyou did a great job. I

(01:03:38):
feel like I feel like we ranthe gamut, and like you covered,
you covered a ton of stuff thatI totally didn't know about. I mean,
I think the only other aspects likethat I didn't talk too much about
a sex like the actual more thanwelcome to sexuality, and I guess I

(01:03:59):
mean, yeah, it's kind ofweird because it's annoying that I have.
I feel like my libido's gotten reallymessed up from antidepressants and hormones and stuff.
I don't know. I feel likeI've had more because it's like I

(01:04:20):
don't know, I've been trying to. I'm trying to be more aware of
like that some things can just bemore platonic. I feel like there's a
lot of the there's so much likewith the whole gender roles thing we talked

(01:04:40):
about when I was growing up,there's such a big separation between guys and
girls that you kind of make thisideological girl in your head that isn't a
real person. Yeah, it's reallyhard to like, so now when I
make friends with girls, it feelslike my first thought is to jump to

(01:05:00):
like relationship sex stuff. Sure it'shard to just and inversely, making friends
with guys feels more organic. Butthen like if I'm like by enough,
It's like sometimes I think about it, but almost feels harder to go there
in my head. So it's likeall kind of muddied. But then like

(01:05:21):
it's like with the sex drive stuff, and like I kind of if it
was higher, I'd be more ableto do or like experience whatever those things
I think I've As most queer people, it's like, oh, you missed
out on your you know, growingup childhood, getting to do these kinds

(01:05:42):
of experiences like having girlfriends or whatever. So I'm like, I don't know,
it feels like I've just passed thepoint medically where it's going to be
easy for me to experience those things. And I don't know, hookups or
things like that are very realistic,which is annoying, but it also is

(01:06:04):
kind of giving me space to belike less hyper sexual and more like valuing
platonic things. So I'm trying totake it with a silver lining because it
seems like there's there are some aspectsto the way I think of relationships in

(01:06:29):
this kind of it feels like theend goal is like relationship, and I
don't think of like just having agroup of friends. Like it's like the
group of friends is a stepping stoneto a relationship, And you know,
I have such a thing about that, about how the hierarchy and how we
hold up relationship as like the highestthing and the pinnacle, and I really

(01:06:54):
I don't care for that, andI wish society wasn't so and culture wasn't
so focused on everything being a steppingstone to a relationship. Yeah. Yeah,
I think that's something I I don'treally know how to do in general.
I don't know, this isn't Idon't know if this is like it's

(01:07:14):
not a specifically queer thing. It'sjust like a person thing. Yeah,
because yeah, like it is.I think a lot of like AMAP people
probably experience it more where the thereis such a lack of like normal friendships.
Yeah that when you do have,like you know, it's like,

(01:07:36):
oh, this person's interested in me, and it's just it's like it's such
a it's such a weird thing togo from like guy to girl and then
be like complimented about certain things andyou're like how did that happen? It's
so it's so isolating being a guy. So I know that that's probably like

(01:08:00):
a lot of like it like youwere saying with your OCD where it's like
some of what I'm saying might betrue, but then it's invalidy because I'm
like, oh, I'm trying.I know no, because like it it
informs it, but it's also truefor people who don't feel this. So
it's just like it's so it's hardbecause each person we're all an individual like
stew pot or whatever, and it'slike everyone's stewpot is kind of different,

(01:08:26):
and it doesn't make something less truebecause you have these other factors that also
influenced it, if that makes sense. It's just the most it's a weird
inversion of America as a melting pot. I know, right, but everyone
is a melting pot within a largermelting pot. It's disgusting. But no,

(01:08:49):
like I said at the beginning,like in just seeing you over the
years in her stories, like Ido feel like you've gotten so much lighter
and happier and your quirkiness is ableto show so much more than and like
the thing with anxieties, like Ifucking have I take anxiety. Man's like
I've said that before, but it'slike, so anxiety can be like an

(01:09:11):
underlying current, like it is whatit is. None of us are supposed
to have cell phones and all thesemodern things, so anxiety is there.
But I just feel like I've seenyou become such a fuller person and you
just I don't know, you justyou seem you seem happier, and it's
just really Yeah, I mean Ishould I thank you. It's just a

(01:09:32):
statement. Yeah, I know.I'm like, I don't know. I'm
like, it's an observation. I'mtrying to think, what's the difference to
observation. I'm overthinking. It's afine line. What's the difference between gender
roles and gender? It's this questionkeeps coming up. It's a fine line.
Yeah, I do feel like,yeah, maybe it didn't come off

(01:09:56):
to listeners as much because I'm liketalking about the depressing parts, but yeah,
I do feel I do feel likeoverall, I have a lot more
purpose in life, and that wassomething I lacked for most of my life.
ROI do you want Are you onsocial media? Do you want to
be found there? If listener,do you want to shout out where folks

(01:10:19):
can find you or do you preferto be to fly under the radar.
I mean, I have social mediaI'm bad at it. I guess I've
made a board game. I couldplug, yes, plug. This is
the part where you get to pluganything that you like. Yeah, and

(01:10:42):
you can you want, well,anything that you like that has to do
with you, Like, don't belike Succession is a great show. Like
whether things than are specific to toyour life? Yeah, I mean I
don't know. I highly doubt thisis that relevant to your to your audience

(01:11:05):
because like it's not queer. ButI made a board game and you can
check it out hyphen rush dot com. Can you wait say that one more
time? Because I spoke over yougrad hyphen rush dot com, like with
the dash because I could, yeah, just grad, it's grad Rush game.

(01:11:26):
I don't know if I'll do Idon't know if I'll do some revisions
because it's still kind of there's someunpolished stuff to it. But I mean
maybe I'll maybe I'll come back anddo more. I haven't had as much
time. It was very cool.Games are inherently queer also, so I
feel like that counts as queer.There's so many queer gamers, so that

(01:11:46):
is. I do think there's athere is some kind of strange overlap get
that I think there's a it's thethe whole dorkiness shine through. Don't worry
as much about the dorky look absolutely. Yeah, okay, yeah we can

(01:12:08):
leave it at that. If youdon't want to, Yeah, I guess
life recommendations, go go try uhdifferent forms of media because like it's like
I hear people go like, man, there's so few queer shows, and
I'm like, yeah, don't readcomic books. Go read comic books.

(01:12:29):
That's lots of very true and internationalweb series and stuff as well, and
there's a lot more queer stuff.Yeah, like heart Stopper was the big
thing. It started as a comic. Go go read card Stopper. Uh
So that's I guess that's that's howthis You wrap up, You do your

(01:12:51):
little Yeah, now I do,Now I do? Oh? I wish
I had a jingle what if it'sthe beginning but the cool jingle d end?
But I should write lyrics to it? Now the end? Here here's
my usual end And you can findme at at Laren Flans on Twitter,
learn Underscore Plans on Instagram. Thepodcast is at coming out Pod. The

(01:13:15):
hashtag is hashtag coming out pod andhey y'all, I have patrons and I
love them dearly, and this isthe part of the jingle where I shout
them out. Shout out to carmelKa, Simone, Kaya, Amne,
Michelle el Adrie, Tanya Pooh,Tia, Kieran Smiley, Aaron Mitchell,
Diego Hernandez, and Beyonclexa dot com. And then I always say, if

(01:13:36):
you want to help the pod forzero dollars, a great thing to do
is to rate it five stars oniTunes or Spotify, and that really helps
the algorithm. Oh Rohi, wefinally did it. This was a blast.
I'm so glad to know all this, all this extra uh juicy,
behind the scenes stuff about your life. Thank you for coming on, Thank

(01:14:00):
you for having me. Yeah,I hope it was fleshed out enough.
I feel like I'm going to haveas you do with every conversation, you
leave it and go like I missedhalf of the things that I should have
brought up. But that's the humancondition. No, I think I think
we did a great job, awes, So thank you so much, Thank
you all for listening, and Iwill see you next week. Oh bye.