Episode 292: Jenn Lee (Smith), REDUX!

Lauren couldn't put the podcast on hiatus without doing one of her favorite kinds of episodes: namely, a REDUX! When producer and writer Jenn Lee (formerly Jenn Lee Smith) was first on the pod in July of 2022, she was celebrating the publication of a book she had co-edited called "I Spoke to You with Silence: Essays from Queer Mormons of Marginalized Genders." Jenn herself was raised in the Mormon religion, and despite having come out in 2008, she had chosen to remain in a monogamous marriage with her husband of twenty-one years, with whom she shares three children. Suffice to say that a lot has changed for Jenn since the summer of 2022. She explains how the book tour for "I Spoke to You with Silence" kicked off a chain of events, and shares how her love for her children has only deepened now that she is finally living as her whole self ("I have been able to love them so much more since feeling right in my own body and skin"). Plus, Jenn describes her experiences on the dating apps as a "little post-Mormon gayby," and Lauren asks Jenn a question that she's been mulling over ever since the day they first met...

Connect with Jenn on Facebook at facebook.com/jennlee.smith2, and follow her on Instagram at @bewilderfilm. Also, check out her upcoming documentary at homecourtfilm.com and on Insta at @homecourtfilm!

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Hey, everybody, welcome to ComingOut Pod. This is Lauren. So
if you if you did not seethe little mini bonus episode a couple of
weeks ago, this is going tobe the last episode of the podcast,
not forever, not doing a bigfinal episode, but the pod is going

(00:26):
to be taking a hiatus. Iwill almost certainly be back to do at
least a couple episodes during Pride Month, but this will be the last episode
for a while. So to thatend, a queer root shout out that
I have been saving. Queer rootshout out this week to you if your
queer root is Tatiana Maslani from OrphanBlack. Orphan Black is my favorite TV

(00:53):
show of all time. It isvery very queer and without giving too much
away, the actress tatianas it wasa gorgeous, sexy name. The show
the top. The topic the showis about clones. So she plays a
whole bunch of clones. She playslike eight or ten different characters and they

(01:14):
all look very different, they havedifferent accents, different, A lot of
them are queer, one is lesbian, one's bisexual. She plays a trans
man clone and I love I lovethis as a queer root shout out because
a lot of folks on this podcasthave talked about when they finally come out
as queer and then they'll like datetheir first person of the gender they've secretly

(01:38):
always wanted to date, and ifthere's no spark, they're like, oh
my god, what if I'm wrong? What if I wasn't queer? And
it's like, no, no,no, You're not going to be attracted
to every single person of that gender. You have to still find the right
person. But see Orphan Black isa great litmus test because you can be
like, which of these many Tatianamaslanis am I attracted to? And if

(02:00):
you're attracted to any of them,you are in fact gay. I'm sorry,
that's the rule, So shout outto you if any one of the
clones played by Tatiana Maazlani is yourclear root y'all. I am doing my
first solo Redux episode, which isone of my favorite things that Nicole and
I used to do. It's whenwe would have a guest back after a

(02:23):
number of years, So I amhere today with return guest gen Lee.
Hi Jen. What's up? Jenis a producer and writer and at the
time the Jen was first on thepodcast, she was Jen Lee Smith,
So slight name modification there, I'mgoing to give a little recap. So

(02:47):
Jen was on episode two six backin July of twenty twenty two, which,
as we talked about, is lessthan two years ago, but feels
like a lot or to both ofus, it's been a long couple of
years. Yeah, yeah, alot has transpired. But so Jen was

(03:08):
actually on as part of a dualguest episode. The other guest sad episode
was named Carrie Spencer Prey, andJen and Carrie were the editors of a
book that had just come out calledI Spoke to You with Silence, Essays
from Queer Mormons of Marginalized genders,And we talked a lot in that episode

(03:30):
about the intersections of queerness and Mormonismand being non white and a queer Mormon,
and how that was the queer Mormonspace was very white, and how
Jen was trying to do something torepresent all the other people in that space

(03:50):
who did not have the same sortof front facing like, I don't know
publicity as all of the white queerrepresentation representation, Baby, how do I
have a queer podcast? And Icouldn't come up with a word representation.
That's that's why we need to takea little hiatus. So I always give

(04:13):
a little recap so in case youmaybe didn't hear that episode originally, or
it was a very long time agoyou don't remember it. So brief recap
of Jen and Jen's coming out story. Jen and correct me if I get
any of this wrong. You wentto BYU Bringham Young University. You were

(04:34):
married to a man in your earlytwenties. At the time that we recorded
in July of twenty twenty two.You'd been married for I believe twenty one
years. You had three kids.Now. You had gone to grad school
at UCLA in two thousand and eight, which was when you had come out

(04:55):
like fully to yourself, and moreimportantly, you did come out to your
husband, to your partner, andyou two were in You and your husband
were in a monogamous relationship, althoughyou noted in the podcast you did not
necessarily think you were intrinsically monogamous,but that was something that he needed,

(05:15):
and so that's what you were doing, and you were you had both chosen
to at the time to stay marriedeven though you had come out to him,
and this was not like a secretor anything. But you described your
relationship at the time as primarily anemotional and spiritual relationship that you and your
husband had. And then during lockdown, as a lot of people did,

(05:39):
you ended up leaving the LDS church, but you were still you were still
like attending services back in twenty twentytwo. You were going with your kids
and your partner, but you hadleft kind of the I guess ideology of
it, if we want to say, so you were in sort of like
a gray area maybe with it,but those were kind of the basics.

(06:02):
Yeah, and most of them.Did I get it? Did I know?
You capsulated a lot of complexity inlike ninety seconds. Well, I
took notes. I listened to theepisode this morning, and I cook notes
on my phone. And now here'shere's perhaps the most important bit. Uh
So, when I asked you,how do you identify at the top of
that episode, Uh, well,you you noted Asian American, which has

(06:25):
always been an important part of youridentity. And then in terms of gender
sexuality, all of the things pertainingspecifically to coming out, you identified as
demi queer and homo romantic. Uhand so, yeah, that is the
recap You're like, oh, interesting, do you remember using those identifiers at

(06:47):
that point in time. I'm wonderingif they've changed it. I forgot about
the demi, but yeah, Ithink that I I identify as queer.
Forget why I added the demi infront. Well, he's pretty accurate.
Yeah, you kind of talked abouthow, you know, you were struggling

(07:08):
with what so many folks in heteropresenting marriages, right struggle with. So
you were sort of I believe,if I remembering what you said correctly,
it was you said demi queer becauselike you were, you were queer and
you use the word queer and stufflike that. But you identified as demi

(07:28):
queer because you were in this marriageto a CIS hetero man with three kids
that looked very you know, soyou kind of like put the demi there
because as an acknowledgment I think ofthe structure that you were in. But
it sounds like now you're identifying thedemi has fallen perhaps by the wayside,

(07:49):
and now you you're using queer.You know what's interesting, I think post
that time, and we'll probably getto this in our conversation, is I
identify as me? Fine? Imean this and like this sounds very anti
clomatic, but I finally get tobe one person, and so I get
to just show up as me,do you know what I mean? Like

(08:09):
yeah, absolutely, Like before Iwas it was really many many, many
decades of like wow, what whatis what? What is? What is
the glass to contain this water?You know? And now I get just
to be the water and I'm lessabout the glass. That makes sense.
That is so beautiful. That's thatshould be like on a sampler, like

(08:33):
embroidered on a that's a beautiful Yeah, I love. Do you want an
embroider? Yeah, I think weshould do. I can't embroider for it's
a lot of embroidery because it's alot of words. M If you embroider,
you know, I do make somuch sense though, because I feel
like and I don't I'm not speakI don't mean to speak for you,

(08:54):
but I feel like we were sayingoff Mike, you maybe felt like you
had to add Quali fires to alot of your identity for a long time
because we I had noted that youidentified as Asian American and felt that that
was important to say because in theMormon space, like it was so predominantly
white, so like you wanted tolike note, even hey, on this

(09:16):
audio where you can't see me,I would like people to know, you
know that I'm Asian American as soidentifying as DEMI queer, being like,
Okay, I get that maybe thisfamily doesn't look like but I want you
like that's important to me that youknow, and using words like homo romantic,
like yes, I am married toa man, but I do identify
as homo romantic and I have thesefeelings like so it feels like you your

(09:39):
whole life have perhaps had to usea lot of micro labels and qualifiers and
like be very specific about identity becauseit might not seem to people not looking
that closely that they're there and they'rereally important. Yeah. Yeah, this
is so true. It's so interesting. It does feel like million years ago

(10:00):
because since then I've I've dated womenonly and family identifying as well. So
I guess that makes me Okay,does that make me pan Yeah? I
guess it does pansexual. Yeah thisis huge. Yeah, okay, So
let's start from like around Sober oftwenty twenty two, and you're like,

(10:22):
I don't what was it? Ifit helps, it was like right when
your book had come out, right, So yeah, So I guess from
the time that that book came out, did stuff start to like get shaken
up or anything, because suddenly youhad this book published that was very front
facing, like queer, you knowwhat I mean? Like, did that

(10:45):
like start anything or was that justcoincidence? Like did that start getting you
thinking or like, well, Ithink I've really I am a very experiential
person. I need to be inthe field right and doing the thing,
and that's how I learned best.I think some people can read a book

(11:07):
and be like, oh, yeah, I understand, But for me,
I feel like I need to bein the space trying to still be the
you know, you know, Carriewas married to a woman and not actively
practicing Mormonism. I was still semiyou know, practicing and in a hetero

(11:28):
relationship. So I felt like thatwas a good pairing for us. Definitely
not it just happened to be thatway. I didn't do that for marketing
reasons, but and it actually did. Right, there are folks who are
like, oh, okay, wellI feel safe with her because she's choosing
what the church wants her to choose, which is to stay married and not

(11:54):
you know, act out my myorientation is still kind of I think the
standard line to be a good Mormonwho is queer just don't have sex with
women like you. Yeah, andyou'll be good. And so I was
playing that role, and in thatrole, it didn't quite it kind of

(12:18):
was that story. Remember that storyI wrote in the book that was kind
of funny, the one you mademe read out, Yeah, I'm sorry
that I make When the podcast Ihad to go, I can't listen to
myself read i skip skip skipship.But yeah, no, of course I
remember. Yeah, of course.Well that was like me being experiential,

(12:39):
like, oh, now I'm ina space where I get to pretend I'm
dating a woman and I'm making thatchoice. Oh my gosh, I'm feeling
emotional. I hope I made somany people women question their sexuality by doing
that immersive show. That was notthe goal going in, but that is
retroactively, I hope that happened.I hope so too. I hope women

(13:00):
start coming up being like, oh, you were Emily, the one that
you know, but you're so butthink who remembers the name of the first
I did? Okay, so youwere that experience, and then I was
in experience with the room with peoplebeing like, yeah, I'm the and

(13:20):
then I was like, this doesn'tfeel right in my skin. So it
was that being in that in thatbook tour that really and I don't know
where our podcast was in the middleof of the you know, the book
launching, but I really started tosay, this doesn't feel right in my
body. It started getting itchy,right, like this is not the stick.
I'm not and I'm showing up inthe world as this and it doesn't

(13:43):
feel right and I can't makes alot of sense. Yep, yeah,
and it was and then you know, I'm not going to get into it,
but I basically then my next stepwas to go no contact with my
parents because I was realizing how muchover time, right as we do it

(14:07):
was going through life, and howmuch of my Mormonism and my hetero forced
force mormonism force heteronormativity was a resultof being extensions of them, and that
comes from narcissistic trauma. I'm notdiagnosing them, but they have a lot
of complex PTSD, which could leadto a lot of that usually leads to

(14:30):
a lot of narcissistic traits. Anyway, that being said the like a good
daughter of people with narcissistic traits,I went no contact. That's what we
call it. In my Facebook groupof like two hundred thousand people who are
the Sisterhood of Daughters of Narcissistic there'sa lot. You're in good company,

(14:50):
I think, yeah, I thinkthere's more than two hundred thousand. I
have to say, it's a verycommon thing, and we have to eventually
realize that the healthiest thing for alot of us to do is to divorce
them or to go and see nocontact. And after that, literally a
week after that, I I calledit. I told my my husband,

(15:15):
I can't do this anymore. Wecan't, we can't be married anymore.
So that was that was the order. Then spoke to her no contact with
parents and separation. Wow okay,yeah, in that order. It felt
exactly happened kind of quickly. Itsounds like very quickly. Oh yeah,

(15:39):
it all happened in the summer.That was just that was just what like
that was right after we recorded then, yeah, wow, wow, okay,
Oh my gosh, how did thatgo? How did your husband receive
that? Because again this was someonewho he knew. You had been out
to him since like two thousand andeight, so this was knowledge that he

(16:03):
had. He knew, Yeah,but how did it go? How did
he take it once you were likefor real cities? This is right well
to his credit and he's I wouldsay, his personality is such where he
would have and he even admitted thisrecently. He would have kept going because

(16:26):
of duty and loyalty and his valuequite high up when his value system is
order and obedience, which is veryhigh up in the Mormon you know value
system right of any high demand religion, Order which is in order at all

(16:52):
costs makes you very good soldiers.And religions love soldiers, right, and
so to be a good and Iwas. I don't think I was ever
a very good soldier, just mypersonality was not conducive to that. But
I wanted to be a good Mormon. I wanted to be accepted, I
wanted belonging. I wanted like allmy people people right. My blood relations

(17:18):
were in the religion, and Imarried into a family that was also very,
very loyal to Mormonism. But Ithink I dared to ask, you
know, at what cost? AndI think over the years I kept asking
that question at what costs? AndI think the moment that I said that

(17:42):
we can't do this anymore, Ithink he he had a moment of clarity
as well around that, like thatthe cost is too high for both of
us. That's what's so interesting isthat he was also sacrificing his happiness and
his you know, ability to likehave intimacy in his life. So it's

(18:04):
just like, it's just that gripis so tight on people, right,
they'll they put it above their ownhappiness. You're both doing that, Like
it's so sad, and I'm gladthat you. Oh, well he has
he. I probably won't get toomuch into this, but I think there

(18:27):
was one time he did say,you know, I've been thinking about this
and if I was gay and Ineeded to be with men, I would
still be married to you. Iwould still try to make it work.
And I believe him because that isthat he values. And sure, right,

(18:47):
but it's worth noting you did dothat for over you know, for
like about like over twenty years.You did that for over twenty years.
And he also it is easy tosay that, but he did not have
the experience of going through that andknow, like we can all say,
well, I would do this inthat situation, but yeah, so yeah,

(19:11):
I don't know. We'll never know, we'll never know, we'll never
know. But he he has nowfound a lot of peace with his world,
happy world of luck, with thelack of tension. I'm the only
one that provides attention really, andalso just the disruption that I've caused to
our children, and that's been kindof a really hard thing for me since
then. So that's one of themajor challenges, is, you know,

(19:33):
like, how do I put mychildren through this? And I think many,
many, many queer parents have askedthemselves this question, right, like,
am I such a shitty person thatI would mess up? You know?
And I cannot let you say you'reshitty Perston at this point, even

(19:55):
if you're speaking hypothetically as if youare questioning it, just like I do
just want to be like, don'tsay that. It's just not true.
Like I've seen you put your childrenand I don't even know you very well,
but I have seen you always putyour children as like first and foremost
in terms of everything that you've beendealing with. So I just don't think

(20:17):
that's and you know, what's interestingis that I have been able to love
them so much more since, Yeah, feeling right in my own body and
skin. And yeah, I saidthis recently because I was invited to speak
about the book again in Utah.This is only a few weeks ago,

(20:41):
and they did it for February andlike Black History Month, and this was
another part actually another podcast called breakingDown Patriarchy, and my friend Amy was
featuring a lot of her guests whoare not white, and of course this
is a big deal in Sandy,Utah, in white women land, to

(21:06):
be like, let's really lean intolike, you know, because there's a
lot of white Mormon feminists who forgetsometimes that there are also people of color
within their faith and get to bereminded once in a while by folks like
me. I'm okay playing that rolebecause I think it's needed. I think
it's needed in a homogeneous community,especially a high demand and also very powerful.

(21:30):
Let's not forget it's very very powerfuleconomically and politically politically hugely. Yeah,
this is a religion that has donevery well for itself, right,
and so we need to remember thatthese are the power dynamics that we're working
with, and they actively choose toforget people of color because it's almost within

(21:53):
it's within the doctrine that people don'ttalk about anymore. But at one point,
Mormons really believe that there is ahierarchy of race. Yeah. I
remember learning about that. Yeah,I mean it was literally like a vision
that a prophet had that you know, before we were born, there we
were, we were ranked by rights, and so then when we were born,
if you're born a white person,that ussa mean, you were more

(22:15):
valiant before you were what we callthe pre existence. You're more valiant because
you know, you get to benot a black person in this like it.
You know, if you're a blackperson, I mean, it's like,
wow, you probably weren't so greatin the predy. I mean,
and then they don't talk about thisactively anymore, but it's so there.
It's this assumption that that also alignswith white supremacist ideals globally. Right,

(22:40):
So yeah, it isn't alone.It's not like they're saying the quiet parton
out loud, but they're also notsaying it out loud, but they're saying
it more out loud than a lotof people are saying it out loud.
So it's a weird yeah, yeah, oh yeah, it's it is very
weird. But like here we arein this like in a you know,
America, still having the same conversations. So I don't I want to point

(23:00):
out that Mormonism isn't unique in thatin that No, we're not like I
can, I can be like,oh jeez all I want, but I'm
still living in a society that veryactively does that. It's just doing it
in perhaps a more insidious way.Perhaps. Yeah, it's different, it's
it's like and then I still sothere's complexity, and I still feel a
sense of loss. I still grievefor all the beauty and the joy and

(23:22):
the love. Yeah right that wewere just talking about this pre pre you
know podcast, You and I justhow like religions start. We it really
does feel that part of us thatneeds belonging, that needs community, that
needs love, that needs to believein something greater than ourselves, and that's

(23:44):
fantastic. And I do think Mormonismstill still tries to do that, right,
And it's the faith part. Yeah, well, it goes back to
the whole Jesus was a hippie,like he was a dude to war robes,
and had long hair and where sandalsand was like love everybody and then
look and then it became the Crusades. You know, it's like a lot
of these things start. I knowthat's simplistic, but do you get what

(24:06):
I'm saying? Oh totally. Yeah. Can I ask in terms of in
terms of your kids, because Iknow they're different ages. Did all of
them know how did your queerness?How did they know about that? Or
did any of them not know aboutthat before the point where you separated from

(24:32):
your husband, because when you cameout to him back in two thousand and
eight, I think at least oneor two of them were too young to
Did you tell all of them atthat point or at what point did they
sort of get told about the situation. We lived in a family culture of
just don't say that things don't causeany y any conflict or tension, and

(25:00):
I couldn't help myself. I hadto in twenty sixteen produce a film about
lesbian Mormons and come out. Thatwas the one we talked about. Yeah,
yes, I'm fascinated. So atthat point, at that point they
I didn't talk to my and Idon't think I did this the best way
not at all, not even close. But I just kind of they just

(25:26):
found out from by way of mycreative work, right, And then the
first short story I republished was aboutyou know, queer about queerness, and
so they know me by my workthat I'm very engaged in figuring out these
questions and these intersections of faith andconservative family and queerness. So I think

(25:53):
they knew as early as I mean, if they as twenty sixteen, I
didn't really talk to them, talkto them about it until maybe be twenty
eighteen, twenty twenty. I don'tknow. It just kind of came out
in pieces, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, no, that I feel
like that is coming out in piecesin terms of children, I feel like

(26:15):
something I have heard before from fromfolks on this podcast. But so they
what I guess I was getting atis this separation was not in any way
coming out of nowhere to your kids, Like, this was something that they
knew, and they knew what thekind of arrangement was between you and your

(26:37):
husband. So yeah, so thiswas not like out of the blue for
any of them at the point that. Yeah, to our credit, we
were very very careful about when wetold our children. Yeah, so when
we made that decision, we tookabout a month and a half to really
lean into what was happening in alldifferent status, in all different layers of

(27:03):
our lives. You know, dowe wait until school starts? And at
what point and at which child dowe start with? And I think my
ex is very he's a very empathicI would say, well to an extent,
right, So he's very he's veryHe's very sensitive to people and their
needs, which makes him he's he'swonderful that way. And he he he's

(27:32):
been such an incredible parent to ourkids. As I've been grappling with my
own issues and of trauma, ofmy own childhood traumas and and things like
that, I think he has shownup a lot more than I have for
my kids. You showed up foras well as I could. I feel
like three kids like they're yeah,yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm

(27:57):
not meaning to invalidate your feeling.I'm just like, oh no, I
hate hearing you say, yeah,I appreciate yourself, but but you have
a therapist. You get all that. I have a lot of work to
do. I need a daily therapistis what I need. I need reminders
like that because I don't know whatyou know a lot of times, I'll

(28:18):
keep doing it. Yeah, Iappreciate it. Thank you. This is
like therapy right now, I'll takeit. I'll kill you after all,
Right, sounds good. I'll supportyou on Patreon. Everyone for support this
podcast anyway. Okay, but yeah, I think I mean you said that

(28:40):
your daughter, your daughter's almost eighteen, you're older. She's eighteen, she
just turned eighteen. She I'm adaughter of my daughter's eighteen. I'm a
mother of an eighteen year old.Wow, right, Like I just took
her to the bank and we juststarted to Yeah, it was crazy,
crazy, really intense. But thisis happening in real time that you know,

(29:00):
I am. They're all at theage though, where they could understand,
like even back in twenty twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen, like there there
was you could have like conversations withthem about what like, hey, our
family might look different from other familiesbecause this is how it works between me

(29:23):
and your dad and that's sort ofmaybe not that direct, but like it
was, it was they were atan age where they could understand the information
that was sort of being ruled outcorrect. Yes, And I was kind
of leading that that part of hewould he leads the more kind of I

(29:44):
would say, traditional strain things,and I lead the kind of more let's
get curious about what's possible. OhI love that ch Yeah, And I
think that was so between him andI we I think that was the joy
a very joyous part of our ofour of our relationship is that we could

(30:06):
create that dynamic for Okay, sothey have they can hold space for multitudes,
I think just because of the natureof their parents. So I think
they were able to adjust to thatnews. When we finally gave it to
them a month and a half later, the oldest was like, yeah,

(30:27):
kind of just kind of like yeah, I mean, I that doesn't surprise
me at all. And then Ithink it was the youngest and he was
ten or eleven at the top elevenyeah at the time, and was he

(30:47):
was most thrown, which makes sensefor so many reasons. My second daughter
also felt like this was right.She's she is very very in tune with
her with people's feelings as well,and so so yeah, I think they
they just knew, the daughters,you know, being older also, and

(31:11):
my son and I have a differentrelationship, like he and I really get
each other. You know, we'repersonality and are just our natural curiosity for
things and our need for expansion.We're very similar in that way. And
then yeah, and then the needfor order, Like I see this is
not as a fault at all ofmy ex husband, but you know,

(31:33):
that need for order shows up inmy second daughter. But she also has
that kind of that love of people, that's that's innate in her. So
it's beautiful. I just I lovemy kids. They're so amazing. They're
so kind, they're compassionate, they'regenerous, they're very good humans. And

(31:57):
I have found that I was unableto really show up for them because of
not being able to show up forme. It's this kind of it's this
backwards thinking that we have. Ithink in this particular religion, you know,
when we take Christ, when hesays, you know, the first

(32:17):
and greatest commandment is to love Godand to love neighbors as you love yourself,
I think we forget the part ofloving ourself, you know, because
if you look at this, he'slike, you gotta love yourself first,
you know, hippie Jesus right,like, gotta love yourself first, or
it's gonna be really hard for youto love other people. It's like right
there in the text and verse,whatever reason I was, we were never

(32:37):
taught this. I still say thisand Mormons are going yeah, but they
still go yeah, yeah, waitwhat you know, why why don't we
talk about this more? I knowyou can't love your kids until you love
yourselves, you know. And it'snot they keep they tell you mothers,
you're the nurtures and you're you belongat home, You're naturally nurturing, which

(32:57):
is I don't know who that serves? Oh is it men? Okay,
maybe it does. So the menare like, yeah, you belong not
in public, you belong in theprivate spaces because you're so good at nurturing
children. And so if you're notlike that kind of person like me,
I'm not like natural, I don't. So I had a lot of shame
that I'm still working through, whichis as a human, make that gender,

(33:21):
no one would ever call me nurturing. And I think I'm like a
good person, you're great human,but I'm not. I'm not motherly,
you know what I mean? Saythat women are automatically endowed with that is
so wildly and a personality yes,exactly. So many men who are the

(33:44):
yes to embrace curturing. Oh mygod, yes, yeah. And I
have friends who are way more matronlythan I am, like male friends,
just my nature of their personality,and it's so stupid. Yeah, we
turn that into a gendered thing.And the other like what you're saying about
being able to love your kids likeso much more expensively. Now. That

(34:05):
is if you are locking not you, the proverbial you, If you are
locking up a huge part of yourselfand keeping it behind a dam so that
it doesn't like overflow everything, ie. If you're repressing your sexuality,
your gender, whatever you're repressing,you are not able to show up fully
for anyone in your life. You'renot you're able to show up to the

(34:28):
amount that is not behind the damnthat you're afraid is going to break.
And that is not even that's justa factual statement. If you've locked away,
you know, thirty percent of yourself, then you can only show up
seventy percent. It's not possible toshow up one hundred percent if you're locking
away a percentage of yourself. Andpeople think that they're like, oh,
but I can do and it's like, no, you can't. That's math,

(34:49):
Like I'm sorry, like you can't. So I just think no one
has ever everyone is like stay togetherfor or I think people are saying this
us, but the idea of stayingtogether for the kids, and that's in
any marriage, not even having todo a sexuality, but just any Like
I have never in my entire lifeheard a grown child be like, I'm

(35:09):
so glad my parents stayed together forme. That was the right call and
it really worked out and I'm welladjusted. Like no, like it never
works. It, No, itnever works. So I just we gotta
get that out of our lexicon,that phrasing of staying together for the kids.
No, because ince instead we getto model what it looks like for

(35:32):
each of us to lean into arethe sect the soft animal of our body?
What is it? Mary Oliver's poem? Right, well, I thought
you were making that up. Iwas like, oh, I wish I
did. No, this is like, no, I don't think. I
think I read a lot. SoI think a lot of my ideas come
from just a hodgepotch of a lotof things. But she says, you
know you lean into like uh,letting your body the soft animal of your

(35:59):
body, love what it loves,and we get to model that for our
kids. Yes, because they seethat. I mean, there's no possible
way they can ignore the pain andsuffering. I mean, so whether what
they're learning is on them, itdoes right that, Yeah, we're modeling
suffering and pain as the de factoway to be human or are we modeling?

(36:22):
Yeah? They unconsciously, Yeah,they're going to seek that out in
their relationships somehow, right, unconsciouslybecause it's like, this is how you
have a marriage. You repress everythingand you're unhappy. I must find this.
But like, yeah, your kids, whether it's now or years from
now, they are going to lookat you as a figure of like such

(36:43):
strength and courage and like that's goingto be so inspiring for them when they
inevitably hit some point in their lifewhere they have to make a similarsh decision
like and just having you as thatmodel is going to be so valuable for
them. Yeah, that's the hope, right, And I think continuing to

(37:07):
work with myself yeah, and Ifully do. Yeah, that they know
that it's not and not everything's gonnaalways work out exactly the way we can
it. Then that's life and reality, and that's okay. I know they
work on binaries their baby brains rightnow. We aren't going to be fully
developed until what is it, twentysix, twenty seven? Right now,

(37:29):
all they can do is work inbinaries, which is fine. And if
they feel safer in church with theirfather, which they all three of them
are, that's fine. I feelthat they want to have a foundation that's
stable and safe and predictable, andthat's that's beautiful, right And whenever they're
ready, they'll remember right that it'spossible to hold space for all of it,

(37:52):
to hold space for the pain,and to not fear it. Don't
fear it'll it may not be allright, and that's okay, right,
And it's okay to feel fear.That's fine too. Feel it's fine for
them to feel disrupted right now inthis period of transition. I feel disrupted.
I'm leading into that and I'll expressit, but I also express like

(38:15):
deep, you know, sense ofsolidity and groundedness, because that is what
I feel like. I get tobe in one body right now, living
one life that I'm not splitting thewater. I get to be the water,
get to be the water and thewater is safe and it's stable too,
it can be you know. Ithink the fear is anarchy. The

(38:36):
fear is like, oh great,mom's gonna go, and you know,
just be wild now. And Ithink some people do when they leave Mormonism.
My cousins when they left, youknow, they did all sorts of
crazy things and then eventually they foundtheir own happy medium, right, their
own groundedness. And when you've beenlocked up in a cage, you just
want to be like, Okay,where are all the corners of the world

(38:57):
that can go And and I thinkwe're taught to fear that. We're taught
to be like, oh yeah,you're not now going to go and do
fentanyl and like kill yourself and behomeless, you know, because that's that's
the extreme. That's what we're like. You know, you either do this,
which is extreme, or you dosomething else that's extreme. I do
see that the linary too, yeah, right, we tell ourselves that yeah,

(39:19):
yeah, yeah, yeah. Imean that is religion also, right,
right, And that's kind of thetrope of X. Like you know
a lot of Mormons who are justlike want to you know, keep their
kids safe right from that world becausethey see that radical swing for a lot
of x Mormons. Yeah, andalso they blame that on quote unquote the

(39:40):
world and not in fact, andmaybe that's an expression of all the trauma
caused by their religion. It's likethere's a lot of selective thinking in terms
of some of the reactionary things thatmight happen when people leave religion. Like
I wonder if that had to doat all what the relife as opposed to

(40:00):
just the fact that they left it. But that's a whole exactly, that's
a whole nother thing. That's alot other thing. It's it's like,
what do we need? Fundamentally?I really enjoy leaving the religion and being
like, okay, what what isthat the root of all this? It's
it is safety. We all wantsafety, we all want belonging. And
now it's creating a new template.And I've been very open with my eighteen

(40:22):
year old daughter about this, like, look, I'm I'm still trying to
figure it out. I don't havea template anymore. So what where is
my community? Where where is mysafety? Where's my stability? And then
you know, where's the chosen family? Which I you know, I'm loving
that this concept exists of the chosenfamily, and I think we've done it

(40:43):
as humans throughout time. Is youknow, like who I choose you,
you choose me? This is beautiful, this is we're interdependent, as therapy
would say, we're not codependent,oh, which I think that a lot
of us in religions are codependent.We're dependent. Yeah, I like interdependent,
Yeah, because we get to beindividuated. We get to be our

(41:05):
own persons and then with each other, right, So yeah, I get
to find out who I am asme and love that perversion of myself.
And then I get to be ina family with someone else who's also doing
the work finding that with people whoare who are with left high demand religions
in different pockets and spheres, andthat feels really good. And most,

(41:30):
but most of my time right nowis spent kind of repairing this this relationship
with my children. That's where I'mat mostly, and then doing some producing
of films that are no longer aboutreligion and queerdness in God and goodness interesting
And is that like a direct resultof do you feel like now that you

(41:50):
can live the way you want tolive? You're like, I don't not
every movie I do has to beabout, like I can express this in
my real life, So now mymovies can be about I don't know,
race cars or whatever you're doing exactly. I don't know. It's about basketball.
Yeah, Oh my god, I'mclose. Were really close. I
was in the ballpark. No,we're premiering in may actually, Sinco de

(42:15):
Mayo over premiering a film called HomeCourt in Little Tokyo in Los Angeles.
Yeah, and it's a documentary aboutyeah, the daughter of Cambodian refugees.
Oh my gosh, this is yourfirst non queer, non religious movie.
It's quite possible. Yes, yes, wow that I'm producing. Yes,

(42:37):
that's amazing. This is a bigquestion that I have wanted to ask you.
Uh. And it goes back tothe movie that you produced about the
two lesbian Mormons who slept in separatebedrooms. So the kind of like reveal

(43:00):
in the middle of the short filmis that these women do not have a
physically and not that's not true.They kiss their affectionate, they do not
have a sexual relationship, or that'swhat we're led to believe by the fact
that we see them say goodny toeach other, kiss each other on the
cheek and then go to separate bedrooms. And we talked about kind of the

(43:22):
blowback sort of from that of peoplepeople's different feelings on that. And as
somebody who facilitates, I have talkedabout facilitating a coming out workshop and just
my regular group at the center thatI facilitate, there are a number of
women in situations like yours was wherethey have realized that they're queer. They

(43:49):
are choosing to not act on thatbecause they are in a marriage, often
with kids, but sometimes even thoughthere aren't kids, they're still choosing to
be in the marriage. And thatwas at the time that I met you,
what you were choosing to do.And I my feeling has been and

(44:10):
Nicole and I both sort of expressedthis feeling in that episode has been like
I don't know other people's lives andit is not my place to be.
Like you're gonna be miserable if youcontinue to do that, and you shouldn't
do that, and if you've realizedthis thing about yourself, like you owe

(44:31):
it to yourself to get out ofthe marriage and live your life, and
all of these things that you nowhave done since the last time that we
spoke, and I guess my bigquestion is like, am I wrong?
Like where is the line between thoseof us who are on the other side

(44:52):
of coming out thinking we potentially shouldsay that, but at the same time
being like, I don't know,there's a marriage and there's kids involved,
Like should I let them come toit in their own time? Should I
try to push it a little?Like I have always aired on the side
of not pushing it, because myfeeling is if they are going to come

(45:12):
to it, which a lot ofpeople do and which you did, they
will come to it in their timeand on their own, and then you
just be there to support them,but don't try to crowbar it. But
I don't know, is that wrong? Do you wish that somebody had crowbarred
it a little so it could havehappened sooner? Or like? This is
obviously just a personal You can't answerfor everybody and it's individual to the individual.

(45:32):
But I struggle with that as someonewho facilitates women in these positions.
So I was wondering what you're fightingwas, Yeah, it's contextualized by what
your relationship was, Like the spacein which you're having these conversations matters a
lot. Who are you in relationto them in that moment, in that

(45:54):
space, and then in that time, I think matters a lot. As
as a film maker with participants,with people we care about deeply, we
were upfront about who we are.I am as someone who's struggling myself with
understanding the different pieces of me andhow they show up in this world and

(46:20):
we And I am interested in yourstory because it might be something that I
that resonates with me right now,because I want to stay faithful as Yeah,
I want to stay faithful to thisreligion that I was raised in that
I believe in. And your story, you know, is important I think

(46:45):
to share because you're not alone.I think we always need to show up
right in our as our most authenticselves in any room. So you showing
up as the version of you that'slistening and going. I have had so
much experienced. Look, I havethis podcast where I've interviewed like hundreds of
people at this point, and I'vedone reado's and followed up and I'm showing

(47:09):
here's the math, right, here'sthe people that I talked to three years
ago, and then where are theytoday. I think you could do that
sort of you could approach it thatway. Let's say as a social scientist
and say, look, I'm goingto collect all the day. This is
something I hope someone's doing right now. All the all the Mormons who are

(47:29):
in mixed orientations were interviewed. Imean there was very clear. It was
on a website. There was allthese videos. Look, I am gay,
but I'm also choosing to do theMormon way. And a word on
the street is like none of themare married anymore? Yeah, right,

(47:51):
And word on the street is like, I'm close to one hundred percent of
these people and there might be thirtyforty fifty of them are now you know,
are now no longer doing what theywere espousing to do and hoping that
they could continue to do. Andthat's math. So so it depends,

(48:19):
right, if you know, youhave a dear friend and you're like,
hey, this is I understand thatthis is where you are right now.
What is your greatest fear? Andif they're and you're like, you don't
have to answer that, we don'thave to answer anything. First of all,
right, that our friends ask us. I have friends who I have

(48:43):
asked these questions of and they're notready, and that's okay, right,
And then those friendships tend to fallaway. I have learned over time because
I'm someone who welcomes the hardest questions. Ask me the hardest question you have
ask you know, I welcome it, right and I I welcomed it when
I was in grad school when someone'slike, are you even Asian? Are

(49:05):
even? Like? What you justsaid was so racist? And I was
like, oh damn, Like Ifeel a lot of shame and embarrassment,
but I was like, God,thank you, thank you for asking that
question. Who am I as anAsian? Just recently, there was a
movie called joy Ride and they werelike it was like, but you know,
have you seen it? It's like, uh, I needed to be
road Trip. We'll talk about it. Yeah, crass road trip movie about

(49:27):
four Asian Asian American women, likedifferent types of Asian America, Like this
is the first of it's kind.And then I finally can be the child
that goes, oh, I'm mostlike this person. I am most I
am most like the whitewashed Asian that'sme. And I'd be like, oh,
yay, you know there is nostereotypical Asian like I get to see

(49:49):
my more and more right in thelast like five years. I think all
of a sudden, there's a lotof these representations. So I am a
whitewashed Asian. I get to belike, that's who I am because someone
asked me the hard question once,right, and that's great. Like do
I get to stay want? Notnecessarily, but I really want people to
come up to me and be like, I want them to be real with

(50:10):
me. I do. I welcomeit, but not everyone. Not everyone
wants that, So it just depends, right, So if you get to
feel it out for yourself when you'rein the company of someone you think could
be happier, and we want thatfor each other. We want to connect
better, right, because I meanwe're built to connect and for them to
like not want you know, yousee them disconnecting from themselves, from their

(50:37):
partners, from their children, fromtheir world, from you, and it's
painful. It's painful to watch.I know, I know because part of
me does wonder if like, backwhen I met you in Freakin twenty fifteen
or whatever, and then we werelike at the Denver Film Festival. Then
we were like having drinks that littleafter party with everybody, and you were

(50:58):
like, oh, here's my situation. And part of me is like,
should I just have said, uh, you're gone only of your os,
but like I just met you,so like I couldn't. Should I have
taken back my drink and been like, if you realize that you only like
women, let me save you nineyears? Like ye, Like should I

(51:21):
have like done that? I don'tknow, Like would that have been helpful?
Like absolutely, yes, so Ishould have. So that's a lesson
for me then, is like Ido think because you know, because we
get to be so honest, butyeah, I am so kind of conflict

(51:43):
averse and like like let tend towant to default of people finding things in
their own time and like a gentleapproach and stuff. I think that I
do maybe air too much on theside of like I support whatever you do,
even if in my mind I'm likeI don't know about it. It's
like, yeah, I should maybetrust people's own strength more and like be

(52:04):
more upfront. I will say,at the time, I didn't have this
podcast, so I didn't have thedata to backup my feeling true, right,
this is not You're a different personnow, you have different information.
You have talked to so many people, and I definitely want to next time
I'm in LA, I definitely wantto definitely want to pick your brain on

(52:27):
what you've learned, you know,many hundred interviews that you've done. Yeah,
you know, because I think thatthat to me is very That's just
that feels my kind of social scientistneed to know, you know. And
part of the creation of that bookwas for my need to know, and
and I need to know stems frommy need to not feel so alone.
So it comes down to that too. And I want to know myself.

(52:51):
But you didn't know that about me. You didn't know I was someone that
welcomes. Look you're not. You'renot the only in that situation I would
have been versus As a facilitator,though, that is something that I should
think about, you know, likejust maybe maybe asking more questions, like
me, have you thought of thingsthis way? Have you thought of that?
And I think I do it moreas of now now we're talking about

(53:13):
me and my favorite topic. Butyeah, I think I do do it
more as a facilitator when I havethat capacity and I know someone better and
we have the space and they're ina space specifically to sort of receipt,
right, But yeah, it justinteresting. I think it's okay if you're
coming from a place of like,oh my god, I think you're so
dumb that no one's going to bereceptive. And I've had people when I
share my story go like, ohmy gosh, you're so dumb, like

(53:36):
you should be like you know,you're going to leave yourself eventually. Yeah.
So I've met those types and I'mnot going to be receptive to that.
I've met people who are genuinely like, oh my gosh, I'm crying
for you right now in your situation, and I just want you to know
that this is your journey. Also, my experience is that it's this is
not going to work long term.And I go, thank you very much,

(53:57):
thank you for your feedback. Youknow, I'm listening to you,
and I am not ready to doanything about what you just said. And
that's okay, and we just wisheach other the best in part ways.
Right. So, I was Iwas given an opportunity actually to leave earlier,
and I said no to that.I said no to that and to

(54:19):
someone I loved a lot, andI just told her I am not ready.
I'm not ready. I knew inmy body I wasn't ready. There
was, there's certain things. There'sa lot of complexity and processes you know,
that come front that lead to thisdecision. And so for people,
you know, I love it whenpeople are like, oh yeah, you're
just another one of those post Mormons, you know, like who are thoughtless

(54:44):
and decide to do what's easy.Yeah, Like I'm taking the easy path
to leave Mormonism because they're the martyrs, because martyrdom is beautiful and ideal.
The self videlation, you know,in like Judeo Christianity is is like so
revered and honored that the doing that, the that the leaving is somehow making

(55:07):
me less worthy, right of,like I don't respect or something. I
mean, you just laugh at that, because I personally know how freaking difficult
this is. But I've been thatperson. I've been on that person on
the other side, the Mormon that'slike, oh yeah, the people who
leave there taking the easy route,sure that they're lazier. Somehow I have

(55:30):
I'm trying to give myself kindness andgrace, like for my past self who
used to judge, who used tojudge? Right, the women who left
their marriages. Because when the makingof that movie, I was still in
that space of like, oh,the more the more respectful thing to do

(55:51):
is to stick it out with yourhusband. And I was that, and
I was judgmental. I was judgmentalof women who though, because if you
feel like you can't get out ofa situation, you have to tell yourself
and make yourself believe that that isthe noble and best thing to do,
because it's like that's what you're lockedin too. So I just think that

(56:14):
makes sense. Yes, it issafety right we have, but there's that
deep, deep part of our magdalahand brain stunt that says you need to
survive at all costs and that that'show we've evolved as humans. Is what's
the safest situation? Do I staywith the pack or is the pack I'm

(56:35):
safe now and I have to leavethe pack and go find a different pack.
You know, that's very mammalian.I'm just I mean, I don't
know. I'm just I am gladthat you, in your own time,
And it sounds like at the righttime, found your way out of it.

(56:55):
But not even just I don't wantto prioritize out of it. It's
more that you found your way toyou like you're saying and I think that
like everything you did, like washelping you to do, like editing,
putting this book out into the worldwas a choice. It's not like that
happened to you, like you wereactively and that was a step that led

(57:19):
to another step that So it's notlike you're passive, and like you were
taking the steps that you needed totake in the time that you needed to
take them the way you needed totake them to get to this point.
And everyone, yes, journey withthat looks different now. I just in
this moment, realized that that wasan act of love for myself. Yes,

(57:40):
even electing, even before that,electing to go on a one person
immersive show that you know is asimulated date with a woman is a choice
and takes courage. But seriously,like someone at a different point in their
life would not have had the courageto do that. That would have been
like too scary and too real andtoo like what if I like this and

(58:02):
it makes me regret like not beingable to do this for real, Like
I feel like all of the thingsthat you were doing were like little choices
getting you to the big choice.But you can't just jump to the big
choice like a lot of people mightwant you to or like the people who
are going like, oh, you'reso dumb, like they're not seeing all
the little steps that need to happento get there. Right, we don't

(58:28):
see the little other things, rightif for someone we don't we don't see
all the complexities that someone has tograpple with outside of orientation. Like I
think this be proud and be queer. I love that we celebrate in June,
but I've always had a hard timewith it because it's like, well,
there's more to me than my orientation, Yes, a lot more,

(58:51):
And I love that that's similarly,yeah, a piece of me. Cool,
this is this is a piece ofme. That's a big piece of
me. And I'm so glad Iget to be that. And I'm so
glad I can be so out andproud and and join my other you know,
because you know, it is itis a struggle. It is a
real and like and and and itwas a real deprivation and it still continues

(59:15):
to be a deprivation that you know, heteronormative society places on us. And
it's something worth celebrating and and andright, like our humans are complex and
there's so much that I want tocelebrate. I want to sell celebrate may
Api Heritage month. Yeah American,right, I got may I got you,

(59:40):
you know, Yeah, I wantto I want to celebrate the right
true you know religion. And I'mglad, you know, because at one
point I was religious. And Imean we get to celebrate at all all
those all those aspects of ourselves,and we get to celebrate my you know,
our our our black friends, youknow, and we get to sell

(01:00:00):
at each other because when you know, when we do that, that's the
celebration of all of all of ourhumanity, all the aspects and all the
different unique identified intersectionality. Yeah,it's right. And I'm learning, you
know, about folks with Down syndromenow, and I'm like, you know,
like I never stopped. You know, this is the beauty of life

(01:00:21):
as we continue to learn about eachother. That's what I love about like
these collections and I you know,I love to do these collaborations, you
know, in films because I getto like meet more people who are different
and who are who have different strugglesthat I want to hear about. I
want it, like I want tolearn about it because because that just in
the in the sharing of it.I think we get to love each other

(01:00:43):
more. You know, share moreof you means I get to love more
of you. I agree. Imean that's why I have a podcast,
Like I just like I love hearingpeople stories. I love telling stories,
and I love hearing people stories likethat's and that's such an old school like
gathered around the fire, pre technology, Like that's just like human instinct that
some of us have really strongly.I think. I think that's so true,

(01:01:04):
and it's hard for me to realizethat not everyone loves that. Not
everyone. Yeah, yeah, peopleare driven by different things, and I
think you and I are similar inthat. I do think that we especially
have that thing where it's like wewant to hear stories and tell me more.
Like I think you're someone who wouldbe like like you, you could
hear the hard things too about yourself. I know that ye bring it on,

(01:01:30):
tell me I suck. No.That is so that's very true,
and like it's so funny because theway we met that show that I was
doing what I loved about it wasI was just collecting people's stories and hearing
people's really like vulnerable, raw intimatestories, and I was shocked at how
much they were telling me, justlike a stranger. And then I was

(01:01:51):
like, oh, that's why they'retelling it to me, because I am
a stranger, and because they wehave this like little artifice and it feels
safe. So like people were tellingme like really sometimes really heavy stuff and
I was like, Wow, whata cool my character and me I was
like a receptacle like these like storiesand it was really cool. Wow,

(01:02:13):
have you thought about writing a bookabout it? I mean, I've thought
about writing books about a million things. But the thing about books is you
gotta like sit down and write them. That's hard, that's disciplined. Yeah,
but yeah, I was wondering beforewe rerap up, do you want
to speak at all to what it'sbeen like? You mentioned that you were

(01:02:34):
dating women, and it sounds likeyou are, you are exploring, or
whatever word you want to use,So like, what what has it been
like? Because again, you weremonogamous, you and your partner, you
and your ex in the marriage theentire twenty plus years. Is that?
Am I right? Yeah? Well, towards the end there was an opportunity

(01:02:59):
for me to be in a romanticrelationship with another woman, and our husbands
were both aware that we were gonnabe in a way kind of like best
friends in a romantic way, andso couple as well. Yeah, yeah,
and so that was my ex liketo call it the great experiment.

(01:03:22):
And I think we learned a lot. We learned a lot about ourselves and
about each other. I think thatwas a necessary step. I think that's
a very important part of this,this whole story, this whole arc.
It gets a little tricky because nowI'm involving like three other people. Sure,
yeah, so now I'm involving threeother people, and this is not

(01:03:45):
necessarily my own story anymore. However, we all you know, I felt
like we were all very responsible andvery ethical. I guess that's what they
call it ethical non anogamy. Yeah, so were probably being helped by it
in ways as well. It's notjust like this is all about you and

(01:04:06):
you're involving three people. They're probablyalso like, whoa, I'm involving three
people. It's like, I assumeeveryone was doing it for a reason.
Yes, this is this is true. So that was that was a couple
of years and then then there Yeah, so we learned a lot and everyone's

(01:04:27):
on their own journey now all fourof us on our own kind of individual
journey. That's a whole episode onits own. Yeah, what was that
the woman who you had briefly mentionedwhere you had the opportunity to eventually Yeah,
okay, but it wasn't the righttime. It wasn't the right time.
Yeah. So here I hear you. I feel like I am the

(01:04:47):
queen of getting myself into situations whereit's like, ah, the timing sound
so yeah, yeah, so yes, so there was so just yeah,
just you know, clarify that piece. And yo. I went on her
app for a hot minute. Imet on many, many, many dates,

(01:05:08):
and I learned about myself and thenrealized I have no time for this,
okay, like in the learning.In the learning, I'm like,
what do I really want right now? While I want to reimagine my my
relationship with my children and lean intothat more. And and then, miracle

(01:05:29):
of miracles, my dear friend fromyears ago we met in a like a
Mormon feminist retreat, came back intomy life. She was divorced and didn't
I didn't, she didn't, andwas leaning into her queerness. And so
we've been dating this past year andlike long long distance and it's amazing.

(01:05:56):
Yeah, like so no idea.Yeah, well, you know, my
god, so you have been seeingsomeone for like a year ish, right,
we've been we've been seeing each otherand like same experiences post mormon,
right, like with kids and kidswho are older, and yeah, well

(01:06:21):
you know, different human but likevery similar backgrounds and like it's it's been
really wonderful, like like little gabies, right, little post mormon gabies,
just kind of figuring out relationship thatis so similar to my cousin's story that

(01:06:44):
you and I talked about very firsttime we ever met. Yeah, like
that's just wild. Oh my god, I'm so happy for you. And
so long distance, which also isvery gay. That's like a lesbian trope.
So congratulations for hitting one of theYeah, the long distance queer lady
relationship is like that's very okay.I don't know about these tropes. Yeah,

(01:07:08):
I mean I know about the Uhaul trope. I know about U
haul, but also LDR that's abig one. That's a big Really is
that just news that just recent?Because your cousin and her partner met,
they weren't long Yeah they met,I think, yes, yes, but
no, but for and I don'tmean, it's particular to queer Mormons,

(01:07:28):
but just queer women in general.Long distance relationships are huge because we love
pining and we love writing, youknow, writing long letters or in this
case, emails. But I feellike it naturally leans insuf But so many
queer female couples will meet online orwhatever and then have like this rich relationship

(01:07:50):
online and then like not even meeteach other sometimes until like a year into
the like this is just a verycommon experience or meeting like a but you
live on different sides of the world, and then you you have this song
distance relationship for years and then somebodylike moves it, like, yeah,
this is very this is a thingin the in the queer female community.

(01:08:12):
So you are in your company,Okay, yeah, very much. That's
so exciting. I love that.Yeah, it's it's I you know,
it's been morally wonderful for me tofeel what it is to like fall deeply
in love with someone who feels sosafe and who loves me for all of
me, and who is also verycurious and expansive right and so like to

(01:08:38):
be And this is not even outsideof orientation, like like late in life
like relationships are so beautiful, right, like, because we know we know
so much about ourselves, you knowthat we right that there's not we know
we know what we value and howlike how boundaries work, right, and

(01:09:02):
there's so much ideally, yes,so we could just lean into the joy
more than the kind of the strug. You know a lot of that struggle
that you have earlier, older andmore tired, so you have less tolerance
for like drama and stuff like that. So it tends to be even more
like stable. Oh totally, yeah, yes, exactly. I know.

(01:09:23):
I don't even want to watch iton television anymore. It just doesn't interest
me. I know. Yeah,I don't have time, and neither does
She is so so great. Ihad no idea. I love that that
is so that is so so cool. Yeah, yes, it's part.
It's just a part of the Ithink, the wonderfulness of Like I did

(01:09:44):
not expect this at all. Itwas like between kids and work. There's
really no say it happens. Yeah, when you get off the apps and
you're like I'm going to focus onmy Cambodian basketball movie and all of a
sudden, this person's like hello,right, right, right, Yeah,
that's amazing, right, Wow,I really love that. And you got

(01:10:05):
to have the experience of being onthe goddamn apps, which is such a
rite of passage and like, soyou got to have that weird, weird
experience. Yes, then yeah,but then you met someone more organic.
It is weird, that's the dream. It is so weird. I've never
updated before, And yes, Ido like the her app. I mean

(01:10:29):
I thought my friends helped me,my queer friends help put my profile up
and everything, so that was funto do together. And did you say
it? Because I feel like peoplealways have this question. Did you put
in your profile like that you hadthree kids and were recently separated and mom,
so you did the Yeah, You'relike me, I feel like we're

(01:10:49):
it's putting it all up front.I want you to know it. Yeah,
right, I was a super overshare. Yeah. Absolutely. Some would
say that's not oversharing and that's justlike necessary information if you're gonna swipe right,
like you should know this going in. Yeah. I think I think
it's totally a matter of comfort.Like some people are like, I need
to wait till I'm sitting face toface with someone to tell them X y

(01:11:11):
Z, And some of us arelike I'm putting that in my profile,
so you know it going in.But yeah, it's a matter, I
know. I just like, noone's gonna want this, like but no
surprising people did, people did,people did like they did the whatever direction
it was. Is it right?Is it right? I think it's right.
It's okay. Long. I don'tknow, it's been it's been very

(01:11:33):
long. I guess it's been overa year, but a lot has happened.
Oh my god. You know,we live. We learn the most
about ourselves when we're in relationship withothers, and this is the most intimate
kind of relationship you can possibly have, as with someone who you know,
who is like that close, whois that like that romantic sexual, all

(01:11:54):
of the things, and like,oh and then we read Bell Hooks,
like all about Love is out alesbian trope where we read books together about
relationships. Oh yeah, okay,you totally you got to read some.
I feel like if you were readinglike Glenn and Doyle books, that would
be like the ultimate. I thinkwe read that separately, many many it

(01:12:17):
still counts. But yeah, readingany books together is pretty lesbian. I
feel like I loved Bill Hooks AllAbout Love. I read that it's not
so I haven't read it. Itwas read. I'm going to give you
all about Love by Bell Looks becauseyou, yes, I am. I'm

(01:12:40):
going to go to La very soon, so I need to read books again
like an adult. This is aneasy one. It's not very long.
Good because yeah, it's been awhile I cracked open a book. This
is so. I cannot believe howmuch you have packed into less than two
years since we spoke. That isunbelievable achievements in personhood, in life and

(01:13:08):
relationships. Just like, I'm soimpressed. I'm so I'm so happy for
you, and I feel like youseem happy and you identifies you and you
and you became water. I thinkthat's that's my water. That was a
good tweet. That was a goodtweet. Recap, Thank you, thank

(01:13:30):
you. I can't wait. Assoon as we log off, I'll tweet
it. Jed, do you wantto give like social media or anything like
that for folks to find you orthe upcoming film and just like anyway that
folks can know what you're up to. Absolutely, I have an Instagram,

(01:13:50):
I'm on Facebook, like women ofmy generation are. You can find me
at jen Lee Smith on Facebook,I welcome, welcome, you know,
connections, right, I love it. I love hearing from people. I
love getting to know people. That'smy favorite. And on Instagram you can

(01:14:11):
find me at Bewilder Film. That'sthe like be Wilder. You know,
you can say it both ways,Bewilder and be Wilder. It's from Roomy's
Sell your Cleverness by Bewilderment. That'sthe name of my film production company,
Bewildered Film. I was from mh are well read good God. People

(01:14:33):
on Twitter all right, and I, as you know, for the last
time for a little bit, Iam at Lauren Flanns on Twitter and Blue
Sky I'm Lauren Underscore Flowns on Instagram. The podcast remains at coming Out Pod.
As I mentioned, I will stillbe maintaining the podcast Twitter and Instagram

(01:14:56):
hashtag is coming Out Pod and thelast time for a while. Shout out
to my phenomenal patrons. I amso grateful to all of you, carmel
Ka Simone, Cayenne, Michelle lAdri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran
Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Hernandezand beyond Clexa dot com. If you

(01:15:16):
did not hear my little mini episode. One of the things I said is
please, please, please, ifyou are a patron, go ahead and
cancel your patronage while I'm doing thishiatus. I don't want to take your
money while I'm not producing new episodes. That wouldn't be right. So please
go ahead and do that. Butyeah, in the meantime, while I'm

(01:15:38):
on this hiatus, if you've neverrated the podcast five stars, now would
be a great time to do that. And then when I returned to the
pod, I'll be like, lookat all these new ratings and maybe even
reviews on iTunes. Uh so yeah, But folks, like I said,
this is not a final episode,because the pod will be back at some

(01:15:59):
point when I have more fuel,both emotionally and financially. But I'm so
glad to be starting this pause ona Reducs episode. There are one of
my favorite things to do, andto get to do it with you,
Jed, is just so exciting.You know my fascination with the Mormon religion
based on my own personal history withit. I'm just so happy to hear

(01:16:20):
where your life is at and howeverything is going. And this is truly
yeah, delightful, really and Joy, Thank you so much for having me
back. Thank you. I havebeen wanting to have you back ever since
I sort of got a sense thatthere had been a shift in things.
I was like, oh my god, I need to help Jen back to

(01:16:43):
talk about it. And I'm sograteful to you for just being really open
about all of it. I thinkthat's sooch Oh. I'm so happy to
yeah, so happy, happy toshare, always to connect, and this
has been a great therapy session forme as well. Yeah, doctor Laurence,
I will be requesting payment through Venmo, so keep an eye out for
that. Thank you all so somuch for listening, and I will see

(01:17:09):
you the next time I see you. Bye bye.