February 14, 2025 • 35 mins
What does it take to transform a simple podcast idea into a global sensation? Join us as we sit down with Kevin Palmieri, the mastermind behind Next Level University, a leading self-improvement podcast with over 1,700 episodes. Kevin candidly shares his unexpected journey into podcasting, teaching us the true meaning of accountability and the unwavering dedication required to build a brand that resonates with over 1 million listeners worldwide. His story, filled with engaging anecdotes and insights, shatters the illusion of overnight success, revealing the grit and consistency needed to thrive in the podcasting world.
Unlock the secrets to engaging your audience and building a loyal community as Kevin guides us through the art of audience engagement. He stresses the importance of leveraging various platforms, such as social media, to create authentic connections and foster organic conversations with your listeners. By focusing on meaningful metrics like subscriber counts and consumption rates, Kevin demonstrates how to maintain a dedicated audience that keeps coming back for more. Discover how to use social media as a tool for connection, rather than just conversion, and see firsthand how these strategies can propel your podcast to new heights.
Looking ahead, Kevin shares his thoughts on the future of podcasting, emphasizing the critical role of community-building and creative monetization strategies. As technology advances, he highlights the rising influence of AI while underscoring the importance of keeping the human element alive in content creation. Explore how video content is becoming a cornerstone in podcasting's evolution, and benefit from Kevin's insights on maintaining high audio quality alongside visual storytelling.
Connect with Kevin:
https://www.nextleveluniverse.com/
Podcast:
https://www.nextleveluniverse.com/podcast-growth-university/
Social Media:
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/kevin.palmieri.90/
LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-palmieri-5b7736160/
Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/neverquitkid/
YouTube
Got a question about something you heard today? Have a great suggestion for a topic or know someone who should be a guest? Reach out to us:
askcarl@carlspeaks.ca
If you're ready to take the plunge and join the over 3 million people who have joined the podcast space, we'd love to hear your idea and help you get started! Book your Podcast Strategy Session today:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:04):
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community, the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episode, and my guest today is a fellow
podcaster, kevin Palmieri.
He's the CSO founder and hostof Next Level University, a
(00:45):
global top 100 self-improvementpodcast with more than 1,700
episodes.
He's been doing this a whilereaching over 1 million people
in more than 170 countries.
I definitely want to dive intothat a little bit.
For sure, kevin believes in aheart-driven but no BS approach
to holistic self-improvement andteaching others how to get to
(01:06):
the next level of their lives,and we're so thrilled he's here
today.
Kevin, welcome to the podcast.
Kevin Palmieri (01:11):
Carl, thank you so very much for having me.
Hopefully I can live up to thereputation you have created for
me and we can add some valuetoday to your amazing community.
If you don't, I want my moneyback 100%.
Carl Richards (01:23):
Plus tax.
We'll give you the tax back too, plus tax, and I want that tax
in Canadian dollars, if youdon't mind, I'd appreciate that.
So, wow, to have 1,700 episodesunto itself is pretty
impressive.
There are some podcasters thatdon't hit six episodes, let
alone 1,700.
Yes, and reaching a millionpeople in more than 170
(01:44):
countries Also something thattakes a while to get there.
So let's talk about yourjourney and how you got to where
you are with the show, becausethat's impressive.
Kevin Palmieri (01:53):
I appreciate that very much.
Yeah, I never aspired to be apodcaster.
I never aspired to be a speaker.
I never aspired to be many ofthe things I am today.
I had a friend who is now mybusiness partner and the co-host
of the podcast.
He had a YouTube channel and in2017, he said I want to have
you on my YouTube channel and Iwant to interview you about
(02:14):
fitness, discipline, mindset,consistency.
And I said I don't know howvaluable it's going to be
because I'm not a great speakerand I don't really know what I'm
talking about, but let's do it.
This interview was an hour anda half long.
It went by in what felt likefive minutes.
When we finished, I said to oneof my other friends who was
there I said imagine if youcould do that for a living, the
fact that that just went by inwhat felt like five minutes.
(02:35):
If I could do that every dayfor the rest of my life, I would
be the most fulfilled humanbeing walking the planet.
And he said well, there'speople out there that do so.
That was really the kickstartfor me to explore podcasting.
I listened to Joe Rogan, likeeverybody else in 2017.
So I understood podcasting alittle bit.
I went out and bought my firstmixer.
I went on Fiverr and gotsomeone to help me with the
(02:57):
artwork and I figured out okay,I'm going to try to have cool
conversations with cool people.
That was it in the verybeginning.
I wasn't teaching anything, Iwasn't selling anything.
I didn't start this to makemoney.
I started this because I wantedto be the person that I needed
when I was looking to findsomeone to help me with
self-improvement.
So it all started byhappenstance and by accident,
(03:19):
and I was not reverseengineering.
What we were trying to do.
It was just right place, righttime, right mindset, I guess Wow
.
Carl Richards (03:27):
Quite the story and congratulations on the
success of where it is, becauseI know it doesn't happen like
that.
It takes some time to get there, but 1,700 episodes that in
itself is impressive.
So are you podcasting daily, orhow do you get to that number
in?
Was that seven short years?
Kevin Palmieri (03:46):
Yeah, seven short years in retrospect, but
trust me, they felt long.
Every single one felt longerthan the other.
So in the beginning we started,like everybody tends to start,
we did an episode a week andthen, in 2018, I had a mental
health crisis where I hadsuicidal ideation.
I ended up leaving my job andsaying, look, I want to really
give this a go and I want togive this everything I have.
(04:07):
So I think in 2018, we went upto two episodes a week and then,
as we got the processes downand the systems down, and as we
got better at interviewing anddoing solo episodes, we went to
three, and then we went to four,and then we went to five.
Eventually, we were doing sixand we said, look, there's only
one more day in the week, wemight as well do one every
single day.
What are we waiting for?
(04:28):
And I think that was threeyears ago.
I think, as of maybe three yearsago we have done an episode
every single day without missing, and that's our new set point,
that's our new standard.
Every day, we will pump out anew episode.
We'll never miss.
If Alan can't show up, I'llshow up.
If I can't show up, alan willshow up, we will get some piece
of content out to our audience.
That is our commitment and thatis one of the reasons we're so
(04:50):
consistent, because it's part ofour brand.
I've said that publiclyhundreds of times.
I just said it again I willnever miss one of our episodes,
so that has helped us outtremendously with the built-in
accountability.
Carl Richards (05:01):
I think that's the big thing, is the
accountability, but also theconsistency.
And I know that, again, somepodcasters struggle with that
because, for some reason,there's this thought that, oh,
it just happens by magic, if Iput out a few episodes, the
podcast, gods or the heavenswill open up and I'll be a
superstar overnight.
Because that's how it happens,right?
Right, kevin, that's exactlyhow it happens, right, you were
(05:21):
a superstar overnight.
Kevin Palmieri (05:22):
Yeah, that was my journey.
That was exactly how it worked.
One of the beautiful things soI've worked with a lot of
podcasters and one of thebeautiful things is I get to see
it doesn't matter what it lookslike on social media, it
doesn't matter what their lifelooks like.
I get to see the real databehind the scenes of how many
people are listening to thepodcast and what all those
numbers look like.
(05:43):
And there's usually two schoolsof people.
There are people and this is thesmaller bucket there are people
who what I like to refer to asovercooking the turkey.
These are people who alreadyhave a decent size audience, but
they're just waiting to do thenext thing, and we've had
clients who have 150,000followers on Instagram.
(06:03):
Growing their podcast is prettyeasy, but that's because they
put 7, 8, 10, 15 years intoInstagram, so they've already
invested the time.
So that's one bucket.
The other bucket is somebodywho does not have an existing
audience, who has the mindsetand the expectations that the
podcast is the best way toquickly build a new audience.
(06:24):
It's a great way to build a newaudience.
It's just not as quick as mostpeople think.
I think when the thing becomessexy, it's the thing that gets
rushed to the most andpodcasting was very, very sexy.
During the pandemic.
A lot of people startedpodcasts.
Carl Richards (06:40):
Unfortunately, a lot of those podcasts aren't
around anymore, so just gettingyour expectations right off the
bat is so important for anything, especially podcasting
especially when we start talkingabout the financial end of
things and when is my podcastgoing to make me money, which is
(07:06):
another kettle of fishaltogether?
But it's no.
It's about understanding thisis a long game, not a short game
, and unless you already havethe Joe Rogan audience or your
Oprah Winfrey, you have thatcredibility, you have that
audience, you've built it overtime.
It's not going to be an instant.
Oh, my goodness, I can nowstart a podcast and I'll
instantly be a success.
(07:26):
It's a journey and there'salways the behind the scenes
things, as you've indicated thatthings happen behind the scenes
.
Guests don't show up, or aco-host gets sick, or there's
things that happen that you justcan't avoid.
But it's a matter of theconsistency, of always doing it
and understanding that and thisis probably business 101 as well
(07:47):
You're not going to be a sevenfigure business owner three
months after being in business,unless you hit on something
really big.
It's going to be a journey tolook up to the 1%.
Kevin Palmieri (08:06):
That is just the most successful and we assume
the same thing is going tohappen for us and it just
statistically.
It doesn't work that way.
Most of us are not going to bethe Joe Rogan of the barstool,
and that's okay.
I don't think most of us wouldactually want to.
I think it sounds really good,but that's a whole.
You need a whole company tomake that type of stuff happen.
What I've noticed, carl, is Ithink people's desires become
their expectations.
So in the beginning, my desirewas I'm going to become a
(08:30):
full-time podcaster and I'llhave full-time income within a
first year, and then that becamemy expectation of how it was
supposed to happen.
It didn't happen that way.
It took us two years before wemonetized anything and I was
$30,000, $40,000 in debt.
My car broke down.
I couldn't buy my now wifeChristmas presents.
It was brutal, but I do thinkyou touched on something very
(08:50):
important.
If you're getting intopodcasting, yes, study,
communication, study, speaking,study, community building, study
business, because what you'reultimately doing is you're
creating a digital business, andthe faster we treat the podcast
like a business, I think themore successful and at least the
more longevity we'll have.
Carl Richards (09:11):
Well, even just how you present your content.
And there are many differenttypes of podcasts out there,
which is another issue, becausesome people don't want to do a
podcast that's business related.
They might want to do somethingthat is more in line with their
passion project or their hobbyand in that sense, okay, that's
fine.
But understand, that's adifferent kind of podcast.
Most of the podcasters I workwith they are business owners
(09:33):
and they want to leverage thepodcast to bring in more
prospects through developingthat know, like and trust factor
.
But it has to be as you said,it has to be intentional, you
need to intend for it to happen.
Factor, but it has to be as yousaid, it has to be intentional,
you need to intend for it tohappen, but it just doesn't
happen by magic.
It comes within your content.
Is your content bringing peoplein or are you repelling people?
I attune it to when I invitefriends to my house for dinner.
(09:56):
If they've never been to thehouse before.
Hopefully, if they're friends,they've been here at least once.
But if they've never been tothe house before, I'll say okay,
well, come on over.
Here's the address andthankfully, with GPS, you know
how to get there.
You don't need too manyinstructions, but if this was
the old days where we had towrite down directions for how to
get to my house, if I left outthose last two or three
directions but I still wantedyou out of my house for dinner,
(10:18):
you would never arrive right.
So I need to be intentionalwith my content.
I need to connect all the dots.
So if there's something I wantyou to do based on the content
I've shared, it could be checkout my website.
Get this free resource here.
I need to tell you to do that.
I just can't assume you knowit's there.
Kevin Palmieri (10:37):
Yeah, the conversion rate is probably
lower than you think it's goingto be.
In anything that you do in thepodcast space you can ask if you
get a thousand listens perepisode and you say, leave a
review, you might get to yourpens.
It depends on your audience.
It depends on.
But you do have to ask because,like you said, I think a lot of
us assume I just built a coffeeshop on the corner.
(10:57):
There's going to be peoplewalking by the coffee shop.
Some people will just come inand check out what we do With a
podcast.
You don't have a coffee shop.
It doesn't really exist inreality until somebody finds it,
and that's why it's superchallenging.
That's one of the questions Iask people all the time.
If you had a coffee shop, ifyou just built it and you were
trying to build business in,what would you do?
(11:18):
Would you just sit inside theshop and wait for people to come
in?
No, you'd be on social media.
You'd be on other podcaststalking about whatever.
You'd be in other coffee shopstalking about your coffee shop.
You'd be at conferences.
You'd be at the fire stationand the police station, the
school, giving away free coffeeto build your reputation and
your brand, but for some reason,when it comes to a digital
space, we lose a lot of thoseideas, and I think that outside
(11:41):
the box thinking is supervaluable.
Carl Richards (11:43):
It's extremely valuable.
You'd also be telling all ofyour friends, which is another
disconnect.
So it's not just about I have apodcast.
Oh, I have to make sure I putit out there on all my socials
and invite people to it.
I know individuals that havepodcasts and they still will not
stand up and say, hey, I have apodcast, or it's not in their
bio, or it's not on theirwebsite, or it's not, you know,
(12:05):
in organic conversation, saying,hey, first, I haven't seen in a
while X, y, z friend, have youlistened to the new show?
Oh, you didn't know I had apodcast because we haven't
talked to them.
Okay, well, check this out.
That's some foundational piecesto getting to building your
audience so that you have abetter chance of success.
And it is a numbers game.
(12:26):
But it's not about the numbers,because there are some very
successful shows out there thathave less than 40, 50 listeners,
but there are others that havethousands of listeners that
don't generate a dime right.
So it's about what are youdoing to create the space, or
create the platform that peoplewill not only want to listen,
but they'll want to follow youand they want to know more about
(12:47):
what you're doing.
Kevin Palmieri (12:48):
Yeah, I think the conversation that you have
outside of the podcast is justas important as the conversation
you have on the podcast.
I've really shifted the way Ilook at social.
Social media to me used to bethis really, really big thing in
terms of conversion.
So we're going to take the beststuff we got, we're going to
break it up into clips, we'regoing to put it on social media
and then call to action will belistened to the podcast and call
(13:09):
to action will be listen to thepodcast.
We do an episode every day, soour approach might be a little
bit different.
It's just it's kind ofdifferent.
Now I understand that Carl and Icould listen to the same
podcast.
We could be neighbors, we couldlisten to the same exact
podcast, unless when I'm takingthe trash out, I say, hey, carl,
what podcast are you listeningto?
My friend, and he tells me andI say I love that show.
(13:30):
I can't believe I'm listeningto the same podcast.
We'll essentially never knowthat we're listening to the same
show and unless we come out ofthe woodwork and self-identify
as listeners, the host willnever know we're listening
either, because podcastplatforms aren't really set up
that way yet.
They're doing a better job nowwith the audio.
You can audio the host and thattype of stuff, but it's not
like on social where it saysCarl followed you and then I can
(13:52):
send Carl a message and saythank you so much for following
me, carl.
Where did you hear about me?
That's the importance of socialnow is it creates the
opportunity for your audiencemembers to self-identify and
then you can talk directly tothem.
And if you're willing to takethat step, I think you're going
to make it further than most,because you're going out and
finding people and then makingsure they're actually coming
(14:13):
back to the podcast.
Carl Richards (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think that, being intentional
and I've actually shared thiswith clients often, especially
the ones who are already thingsthat some podcasters haven't
even done yet and they'rebuilding community or they built
community.
I have a colleague who hasbuilt a massive community in the
real estate space and everytime he's on stage he should he
doesn't, he should be sayingpull out your phones, go to your
(14:36):
favorite podcast app Apple,spotify, doesn't matter which
one it is.
Search the podcast, make sureyou add it to your playlist.
That is at least a good step,especially if you've already
built that community.
But I think we're getting there.
The other thing too, with thespace is and I know it's an
evolution is there's thismisconception that podcasting is
it's like the new radio, right,and it's just like radio, or
(14:58):
it's just like television.
Quite often I'll get asked well, what are the metrics?
What's my listenership?
How do I gauge that?
And there are some, as you said.
There's some tools out therethat can help us, but it's still
not a clear indicator of thesuccess of a show versus, say,
nielsen ratings or, or you know,large radio diary, uh, whatever
(15:19):
they call it in the U S I knowhere it's a numerous where they
they figure out who's listeningto the radio and when that
information is still in itsinfancy stages in the podcasting
space, and it's a differentmedium altogether.
Kevin Palmieri (15:31):
Yeah, it's the wild west.
I have clients who come in andsay, okay, where do I find my
stats?
It's like, ah, I'm, you canfind them on your host, whatever
host we're using, and then youcan go on Spotify for podcasters
and Apple podcast connect.
But outside of that, no, therereally aren't that great of
stats.
Go check out YouTube.
If you're putting it on YouTube, that's kind of helpful.
(15:51):
But that's a conversation I havewith people very early on is we
have to understand what metricsare you trying to measure and
why?
Why do you want more listeners?
Why, what is it about it?
Well, I assume when I get morelisteners I'll make more money.
Eh, maybe I like to think of itas subscribers.
I think subscribers is superimportant to look at and you can
look at that on Spotify forpodcasters and Apple Podcast
(16:13):
Connect and it's a really goodmeasurement of how sticky your
content is.
And I love looking at theconsumption rate on Apple
Podcast Connect.
The consumption rate dictateshow much of these episodes are
people actually consuming?
You could have the best guestsin the world, you can have the
best name in the world, you canhave the best brand, the best
(16:35):
marketing, the best everything,but if your audio quality is not
good and people aren't stickingaround, you're not going to be
very successful.
So that's a.
I love the consumption ratebecause it signifies to me that
you're producing good contentthat's sticky and you have a
very, very loyal audience.
And a loyal audience is anaudience that will grow and it's
also an audience that will movethrough your business.
If you have a group, they'll gofrom the podcast to the group
and if you have coaching orbusiness opportunities,
(16:57):
eventually that's the type ofaudience that would take
advantage of what you'reoffering.
Carl Richards (17:01):
Yeah, 100%.
And you touched on somethingthat I want to springboard,
because it's something that inthe podcasting space I don't
want to say it didn't exist, butit's certainly more front
facing now than it was before,and that's the okay.
I've listened to your episode,now what?
And there's this huge pushtowards community.
It's the, not just what you'redoing during the show, it's the
(17:23):
community you're buildingafterwards, it's the masterminds
, it's the what's happening inthe green room afterwards, which
, by the way, ends up beingbonus content, which is kind of
nice if you want to talk aboutmonetization, but it's also the
it's developing more of thatknow like and trust factor, so
people and people will consumethis content.
I think there's the trepidationthat well, if I do that, is
(17:44):
anybody going to show up, almostlike there's that imposter
syndrome people saying, well, Idon't think anybody will come
and listen after the show.
Oh, yes, they will saying well,I don't think anybody will come
and listen after the show.
Kevin Palmieri (17:55):
Oh, yes, they will, Sure they will Well.
And the other.
The other important piece of itis there's two types of calls
to action.
So I love what you talked about.
Your buddy, the real estateperson who has a call to action,
should have a call to actionfor the podcast.
Yes, you could easily say if youenjoyed this speech.
Say, you're on stage in frontof 500 people.
If you enjoyed this speech, Iactually have a course that's
(18:16):
$1,499.
And if you just click the linkor you put your phone over this
QR code, it'll take you rightthere.
The conversion rate of that isgoing to be very, very small.
But if you say if you enjoyedwhat we talked about here today
in this speech I actually have apodcast where we do an episode
every single week on content,just like this the conversion
rate will ultimately be higher.
(18:36):
So there's two types of callsto action there's highest
probability and there's highestROI.
From what I've seen, thepodcasts that create the most
successful community businessecosystem are the ones that are
relying on the highestprobability, not the highest ROI
.
The highest ROI is not going tohelp you build a community
(18:57):
because somebody is going to say, no, I don't want your product
and then they're going to leaveInstead of you saying if you
enjoyed what we talked abouttoday.
I have a Facebook group, allabout blink.
It's totally free.
You're going to fit in becauseit's going to be other podcast
listeners and we do an episodeonce every week.
For the other six days, you'regoing to have positive,
inspiring content to help yougain momentum Boom.
(19:18):
So that's another piece that Ialways tell people is if you do
an episode a week, awesome, whatare your audience members
supposed to do for the other sixdays?
They're going to go listen toanother podcast or they're going
to go find another group Mightas well be your and you might as
well put content in there as asconsistently as you can, maybe
not every day.
Carl Richards (19:35):
I know that's hard yeah, it's certainly,
especially if you're a businessowner.
There's a number of otherplates that you're spinning, so,
of course, oh well, put contentout there and again, you can be
intentional about it, but itdefinitely can be a daunting
process, but definitely itshould be something that you're
you're considering.
I want to talk about this and Ithink we've maybe touched on it
a little bit, but you'rereaching over a million people.
You're in more than 170countries, and I know that some
(19:57):
of that is statisticalinformation that says, hey, look
at where all your podcastlisteners are, but did you
anticipate that it would grow tothat size?
And what are some tips youcould share with people to get
there?
Kevin Palmieri (20:10):
No, I did not at all think it was going to grow
to that size.
I was hopeful that we wouldachieve some level of success,
but I never expected it to be.
We crossed the million dollarand the million listen mark on
the same day, which to me wasabsolutely mind blowing, and
that was two dreams come truethat I didn't imagine could
possibly happen.
(20:30):
I did a poll recently in ourFacebook group and this is
another reason why groups areawesome, because you can get,
you can get valuable data andthe question was how did you
find the podcast in the firstplace?
And then I just I took all theanswers and I went through and
figured out okay, what was themost common one?
The most common one was word ofmouth.
Word of mouth.
Somebody told me about thepodcast.
(20:51):
Somebody told me about thepodcast.
Okay, why did somebody tellthat person about the podcast in
the very beginning?
Carl, after a listener wouldself-identify, I would literally
message them on Instagram, Iwould give them my phone number
and we would hop on a FaceTimeand I had nothing to sell.
I had no products or noservices.
I just wanted to say, carl,thank you so much for listening
(21:14):
to the show.
Thank you for sharing.
I appreciate it.
I want to get to know you so Ican make more aligned content
for you.
Those are the people thatshared the podcast, because it
went from I listen to this showto I actually know the people
who do it.
And a lot of people will say weget stuck in this piece where we
say I only have like 10 peoplelistening to my episode.
(21:34):
That's a good problem to havebecause if you do it right, you
can go find all of those 10people.
It's a lot harder to find ahundred thousand people.
It's almost impossible, likethat's going to take you a lot
of time.
But you don't need a millionpeople to have a successful
podcast.
You need a thousand people wholove what you do and tell other
people about it, and that hasalways been our thought process.
(21:54):
I do a lot of things that arenot scalable.
I will send people DMs, I willjump on free calls, I send audio
messages, I send video messages, because I understand that the
more quote unquote successful weget in, the more social proof
we get, the more valuable thattype of stuff is.
So I think the simplest answeris we do a ton of one-on-one
(22:15):
stuff, even if it doesn't leadto money, because that's the
highest probability.
The highest probability is if Italk to you behind the scenes,
you'll come back and listen tothe podcast.
I might not make a dollar, butthat's okay.
You don't always make moneywith every interaction in a
business.
Sometimes it's going to the top.
It's the long game.
It's eventually.
Maybe you'll sign up forsomething.
(22:35):
If not, I get to know moreabout the audience and I can
make better content because ofit.
Carl Richards (22:39):
I think you hit the nail right on the head.
There is there's so much of arace to the show me the money
finish line, as opposed to the.
I really need to build out therelationships and, by the way,
you don't need to be doing apodcast every day, like Kevin is
.
You don't need to be doing allof those personal touches that
Kevin is doing, although they'rehelping, obviously, but you
(23:06):
certainly need to be intentionalwith what it is that you're
doing so you can get to thepoint where you're getting the
audience to follow you andideally then touch your products
and services and feel thatthey've developed enough of the
KLT so that they will do that.
And, by the way, this doesn'thappen overnight.
I'm sure Kevin, your first showor two or three or a hundred,
(23:29):
like you said you weren't makinga dime.
If anything, you were losingmoney, but you weren't
scratching your head saying, Iwonder how I'm going to make
money from my show.
It was a process to get to andnow it's a well-oiled machine,
but it didn't happen instantly.
Kevin Palmieri (23:44):
I was losing lots of money.
Yeah, I was losing a lot ofmoney.
We were traveling and going toevents and meeting people and
learning and growing andequipment and cameras and mics.
I was losing a no-transcriptand I worked with these five
(24:37):
people for two months and at theend of the two months I said do
you want to continue?
I can't do this for freeanymore.
And everybody said yes and thatwas the proof of concept for me
.
That was the proof of concept.
But if you think of the factthat I did eight calls for free,
never talking about moneyadding value, adding value,
adding value, adding value.
Of course, if they're going tocontinue working with a coach,
(24:58):
it's going to be me, becauseI've already added value and we
already have the no like trustand they know who I am behind
the scenes.
There's something about whensomebody gets to meet you behind
the scenes and they see thatyou're the same as you are on
the podcast, something changesbecause people feel like they
already know you.
So that was one of the bestlessons I I ever learned and I
think a lot of people are afraidto start there.
(25:20):
A lot of people are afraid we'rein this interesting place where
I think, unfortunately, peopleare teaching other people to be
entitled.
Well, you need a $10,000 course?
Oh, you only charge $150 anhour for coaching.
You need to raise your prices.
It's very hard to raise yourprices if you don't have demand.
You need demand and demandcomes from over-serving and
(25:41):
sometimes undervaluing your timein the very beginning, just to
build momentum.
Carl Richards (25:46):
Yeah, 100%.
And again, I think that's alsobusiness 101, where you can't
just offer a $20,000 service orproduct if there is no proof of
concept, right.
So you're either offering itfor free or it's a lower priced,
it's a lower ticket item whenyou're starting right, because
you don't have that proof ofconcept yet and people don't
know who you are.
Once you have that proof ofconcept, once people see you as
(26:09):
a Tony Robbins or something likethat, then okay, then you can
charge Tony Robbins prices.
That's when you can do it.
You don't do it the other wayaround.
And I think it's the same thingin the podcasting space.
You can't have six episodes and20 listeners and expect that.
Well, now I can go make $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 off my show,
because it's still not.
I mean, I have a colleague whoshared with me that his journey
(26:33):
was somewhere around episode 50,between 45 and 50 was where
things started to.
He saw his audience start toget bigger.
He saw a little bit of revenueAgain, it wasn't a lot at that
point coming in from the show,and so it was about a year in
for him going the one episode aweek.
But he said it took that longto build that out and again,
(26:55):
unless you are alreadyestablished in the world.
Like you're a Joe Rogan, youhave that celebrity status
behind you.
It's a journey world likeyou're a Joe Rogan, you have
that celebrity status behind you.
It's a journey and we reallyneed to embrace and enjoy the
journey as we're growing and notrace to just because there's
the potential of dollar signssomewhere and you have the
opportunity to learn so much.
Kevin Palmieri (27:16):
Somebody asked me this yesterday.
I was on a podcast that we weretalking about podcasts.
I love it.
And this person said what elsehave you learned through the
podcast?
And I said well, when you havea podcast, you get to ask
questions of guests.
If you're having guests on,that's amazing.
I've learned so much aboutbusiness.
I've had to consistently getoutside my comfort zone.
I've learned so much aboutaudio editing, video editing,
(27:38):
marketing, copywriting all ofthese things that I never
thought I was going to have theopportunity to learn so much.
To your point, carl, it's ajourney and money is a very,
very beneficial byproduct of yougrowing as a podcast, as a
business owner, as aninterviewer, as a speaker.
But it is a byproduct.
It's a byproduct of you addingvalue.
(27:58):
If you go into this with amindset of I'm going to add
value to my audience, I thinkyou're on the right path.
If you go into this saying I'mgoing to make money from my
audience, I probably wouldn'tbet on you and, again, I'm wrong
all the time.
So I'm not saying you can'tmake it that way, but I think
(28:19):
your audience can tell.
That's why, you see, you cansee a tick down when somebody
goes from not running ads torunning ads.
One of my favorite things in theworld to do is look at people's
shows, especially big shows,when they go from not running
ads to running a minute of ads,to two to four to five to six,
because that's usually when theyget their negative reviews,
because people feel likesomething's changing here and
(28:40):
you don't care as much about usas you used to.
Now, obviously, that personwants to monetize and make money
, so it's a fine line, butthat's really good data to have
because people can tell.
People can tell your intentions.
You might not sense it, butmost people can tell.
Carl Richards (28:54):
Yeah, I think that's the misconception too in
the podcasting space is themonetization attitude of, well,
I just need to go get somesponsors, or I need to get some
paid ads and that's going to.
That'll solve all of myproblems with as far as how the
podcast is going to make money,as opposed to okay, well, how
else can we leverage jointventure partnerships?
How can we leverage content?
How can we leverage community?
(29:15):
How can we leverage coaching?
What are some of the otheraspects we could do?
Even, how can we leveragehaving like a almost like a
podcast co-op, where it's a fewof us contributing content and
really paying for the productionourselves, so we're basically
hosting our own show, three orfour of us and being
contributors of the show.
Kevin Palmieri (29:36):
It's the creativity.
Most of us won't make ameaningful amount of money from
sponsorships, ads or affiliates.
It's just, most of us aren'tgoing to have the numbers to do
it, but that's okay.
But there's a bunch of otherways.
If you have a podcast thattalks about fitness and you're a
fitness coach, you have areally good path to monetization
.
The podcast becomes leadgeneration, aligned lead
(29:57):
generation, value add, communitybuilder, content builder, test
run, because you test outdifferent titles and see what
works and what doesn't.
It becomes research anddevelopment.
It becomes all of these amazingthings and then you get to hone
your offers.
Well, I would like to charge$150 an hour.
That's what I charge my otherclients.
Let me see if I can get that.
That doesn't really work here.
Okay, cool, but that's a reallygood aligned way.
(30:20):
If you're a coach or businessowner, the thing that you talk
about at the top of yourbusiness model should be the
thing that you make money on thebottom of your business model,
but if not, then it creates akink in the hose.
If you're a lawyer and you havea podcast on cooking, it's not
necessarily the best way tomonetize in that regard.
(30:42):
Obviously, there's other waysto do it but just as an example.
Carl Richards (30:49):
Right Kevin, this is a phenomenal discussion.
Kevin Palmieri (30:50):
I wish I could talk to you all day, likewise,
my friend.
Carl Richards (30:52):
I do have a couple of questions, though,
before I turn you loose.
Number one is I need you togaze into your crystal ball.
So it's a fortune tellingmoment here for you.
I see you have your crystalball.
Very good, he doesn't.
I'm just letting you know hedoes not have a crystal ball.
He's not dressed like he shouldhave a crystal ball either.
He doesn't look like a fortuneteller.
But question for you in yourestimation, in your experience
(31:16):
and opinion, where is thispodcasting thing headed, say,
over the next two to five years?
Kevin Palmieri (31:21):
I think AI is going to influence a lot, but I
think everybody that's puttingso much focus into AI is going
to regret it, because I thinkthe human element is being left
out, and I think those that keepthe human element in their
podcast business and brand aregoing to really, really benefit
from that.
That's one I am hopeful.
I don't know if I'd bet on it,but I am hopeful that the stats,
(31:44):
analytics and measurement toolsare going to get better in the
next two to five years.
I can't imagine they don't, butit's also been a long time.
I would imagine that, and Ithink video content is going to
continue to be the thing, and ifyou're not creating video
content, it might be a good timeto start practicing.
Maybe it's one video that goeson Instagram every week, or
(32:08):
whatever it is.
Just get comfortable in frontof video, because a lot of
people are going to consumepodcasts in video form, and I
know a lot of people are afraidof getting in front of the
camera.
So those are probably threeplaces I'd look Duly noted.
Carl Richards (32:21):
Yes, I know I'm due for a video version of this
podcast.
I've had more than one personsay that and I know that wasn't
directed at me personally.
Kevin Palmieri (32:28):
No, right, right right.
Carl Richards (32:28):
Yes, I know I need a video, Kevin, Thank you
for reminding me.
But again, I spent years in theaudio space and this is you
know, and podcasts started outas audio only and have been very
successful in that space.
I will say that audio is still,even in the video space.
Without audio, there is novideo and it goes back to that
quality you spoke of earlier,where you can have awesome video
(32:49):
or even not so awesome video,but if the audio quality is in
the toilet, it's going to repellisteners as opposed to bring
them into your camp.
So thank you for your insightson that.
Of course, Before I introducethe final thought, do you have
any resources or something thatyou'd like to pass along to our
listeners today?
Kevin Palmieri (33:09):
I have a podcast called Podcast Growth
University, where I do anepisode every single week on
growing, monetizing, scalingpodcasts.
So it's totally free.
There's no ads, there's nosponsorships.
It's just me really trying togive away the best stuff I have.
What have I learned?
What are clients going through?
So, yeah, that's on all thepodcast platforms, on YouTube as
well, and that's anotherpodcast I will never miss an
(33:30):
episode on.
I guarantee I will put on anepisode every single week.
Rain, snow, sleet, shine,whatever's going on, I will get
you an episode.
Carl Richards (33:38):
So if you like what you've heard today from
Kevin speaking, definitelylisten to the show.
We'll make sure the links forall that are in the show notes
as well.
And again, before I turn youloose to go and probably record
another podcast episode, thefinal thought on what we've
talked about today.
Kevin Palmieri (33:53):
Expectations determine reality for most of us
.
So just be very, very cautiousof what your expectations are
and where they're coming from,because if your expectations are
, I'm going to succeed, like the1% of people.
You might be in trouble and youmight feel like you're doing
something wrong when it's reallyjust par for the course and
you're playing the long game,certainly a great place to leave
(34:13):
it and enjoy the journeybecause, as you've heard from
Kevin, it's definitely a journey.
Carl Richards (34:22):
It's a fun journey and, Kevin, it's been a
pleasure having you as my guesttoday.
Thanks so much.
Kevin Palmieri (34:24):
Thank you, carl, I appreciate you
Carl Richards (34:24):
And thank you for joining us today.
Special thanks to our producerand production lead, Dom
Carrillo, our music guru, NathanSimon, and the person who works
the arms all of our arms,actually my trusty assistant,
Stephanie Gafoor.
If you like what you heard today, leave us a comment and a
review.
And If you like what you heardtoday, leave us a comment and a
review and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
(34:45):
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email, askcarl atcarlspeaksca.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes.
And if you're ready to take theplunge and join the over 3
(35:06):
million people who have said yesto podcasting.
Let's have a conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time you.
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community, the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episode, and my guest today is a fellow
podcaster, kevin Palmieri.
He's the CSO founder and hostof Next Level University, a
(00:45):
global top 100 self-improvementpodcast with more than 1,700
episodes.
He's been doing this a whilereaching over 1 million people
in more than 170 countries.
I definitely want to dive intothat a little bit.
For sure, kevin believes in aheart-driven but no BS approach
to holistic self-improvement andteaching others how to get to
(01:06):
the next level of their lives,and we're so thrilled he's here
today.
Kevin, welcome to the podcast.
Kevin Palmieri (01:11):
Carl, thank you so very much for having me.
Hopefully I can live up to thereputation you have created for
me and we can add some valuetoday to your amazing community.
If you don't, I want my moneyback 100%.
Carl Richards (01:23):
Plus tax.
We'll give you the tax back too, plus tax, and I want that tax
in Canadian dollars, if youdon't mind, I'd appreciate that.
So, wow, to have 1,700 episodesunto itself is pretty
impressive.
There are some podcasters thatdon't hit six episodes, let
alone 1,700.
Yes, and reaching a millionpeople in more than 170
(01:44):
countries Also something thattakes a while to get there.
So let's talk about yourjourney and how you got to where
you are with the show, becausethat's impressive.
Kevin Palmieri (01:53):
I appreciate that very much.
Yeah, I never aspired to be apodcaster.
I never aspired to be a speaker.
I never aspired to be many ofthe things I am today.
I had a friend who is now mybusiness partner and the co-host
of the podcast.
He had a YouTube channel and in2017, he said I want to have
you on my YouTube channel and Iwant to interview you about
(02:14):
fitness, discipline, mindset,consistency.
And I said I don't know howvaluable it's going to be
because I'm not a great speakerand I don't really know what I'm
talking about, but let's do it.
This interview was an hour anda half long.
It went by in what felt likefive minutes.
When we finished, I said to oneof my other friends who was
there I said imagine if youcould do that for a living, the
fact that that just went by inwhat felt like five minutes.
(02:35):
If I could do that every dayfor the rest of my life, I would
be the most fulfilled humanbeing walking the planet.
And he said well, there'speople out there that do so.
That was really the kickstartfor me to explore podcasting.
I listened to Joe Rogan, likeeverybody else in 2017.
So I understood podcasting alittle bit.
I went out and bought my firstmixer.
I went on Fiverr and gotsomeone to help me with the
(02:57):
artwork and I figured out okay,I'm going to try to have cool
conversations with cool people.
That was it in the verybeginning.
I wasn't teaching anything, Iwasn't selling anything.
I didn't start this to makemoney.
I started this because I wantedto be the person that I needed
when I was looking to findsomeone to help me with
self-improvement.
So it all started byhappenstance and by accident,
(03:19):
and I was not reverseengineering.
What we were trying to do.
It was just right place, righttime, right mindset, I guess Wow
.
Carl Richards (03:27):
Quite the story and congratulations on the
success of where it is, becauseI know it doesn't happen like
that.
It takes some time to get there, but 1,700 episodes that in
itself is impressive.
So are you podcasting daily, orhow do you get to that number
in?
Was that seven short years?
Kevin Palmieri (03:46):
Yeah, seven short years in retrospect, but
trust me, they felt long.
Every single one felt longerthan the other.
So in the beginning we started,like everybody tends to start,
we did an episode a week andthen, in 2018, I had a mental
health crisis where I hadsuicidal ideation.
I ended up leaving my job andsaying, look, I want to really
give this a go and I want togive this everything I have.
(04:07):
So I think in 2018, we went upto two episodes a week and then,
as we got the processes downand the systems down, and as we
got better at interviewing anddoing solo episodes, we went to
three, and then we went to four,and then we went to five.
Eventually, we were doing sixand we said, look, there's only
one more day in the week, wemight as well do one every
single day.
What are we waiting for?
(04:28):
And I think that was threeyears ago.
I think, as of maybe three yearsago we have done an episode
every single day without missing, and that's our new set point,
that's our new standard.
Every day, we will pump out anew episode.
We'll never miss.
If Alan can't show up, I'llshow up.
If I can't show up, alan willshow up, we will get some piece
of content out to our audience.
That is our commitment and thatis one of the reasons we're so
(04:50):
consistent, because it's part ofour brand.
I've said that publiclyhundreds of times.
I just said it again I willnever miss one of our episodes,
so that has helped us outtremendously with the built-in
accountability.
Carl Richards (05:01):
I think that's the big thing, is the
accountability, but also theconsistency.
And I know that, again, somepodcasters struggle with that
because, for some reason,there's this thought that, oh,
it just happens by magic, if Iput out a few episodes, the
podcast, gods or the heavenswill open up and I'll be a
superstar overnight.
Because that's how it happens,right?
Right, kevin, that's exactlyhow it happens, right, you were
(05:21):
a superstar overnight.
Kevin Palmieri (05:22):
Yeah, that was my journey.
That was exactly how it worked.
One of the beautiful things soI've worked with a lot of
podcasters and one of thebeautiful things is I get to see
it doesn't matter what it lookslike on social media, it
doesn't matter what their lifelooks like.
I get to see the real databehind the scenes of how many
people are listening to thepodcast and what all those
numbers look like.
(05:43):
And there's usually two schoolsof people.
There are people and this is thesmaller bucket there are people
who what I like to refer to asovercooking the turkey.
These are people who alreadyhave a decent size audience, but
they're just waiting to do thenext thing, and we've had
clients who have 150,000followers on Instagram.
(06:03):
Growing their podcast is prettyeasy, but that's because they
put 7, 8, 10, 15 years intoInstagram, so they've already
invested the time.
So that's one bucket.
The other bucket is somebodywho does not have an existing
audience, who has the mindsetand the expectations that the
podcast is the best way toquickly build a new audience.
(06:24):
It's a great way to build a newaudience.
It's just not as quick as mostpeople think.
I think when the thing becomessexy, it's the thing that gets
rushed to the most andpodcasting was very, very sexy.
During the pandemic.
A lot of people startedpodcasts.
Carl Richards (06:40):
Unfortunately, a lot of those podcasts aren't
around anymore, so just gettingyour expectations right off the
bat is so important for anything, especially podcasting
especially when we start talkingabout the financial end of
things and when is my podcastgoing to make me money, which is
(07:06):
another kettle of fishaltogether?
But it's no.
It's about understanding thisis a long game, not a short game
, and unless you already havethe Joe Rogan audience or your
Oprah Winfrey, you have thatcredibility, you have that
audience, you've built it overtime.
It's not going to be an instant.
Oh, my goodness, I can nowstart a podcast and I'll
instantly be a success.
(07:26):
It's a journey and there'salways the behind the scenes
things, as you've indicated thatthings happen behind the scenes
.
Guests don't show up, or aco-host gets sick, or there's
things that happen that you justcan't avoid.
But it's a matter of theconsistency, of always doing it
and understanding that and thisis probably business 101 as well
(07:47):
You're not going to be a sevenfigure business owner three
months after being in business,unless you hit on something
really big.
It's going to be a journey tolook up to the 1%.
Kevin Palmieri (08:06):
That is just the most successful and we assume
the same thing is going tohappen for us and it just
statistically.
It doesn't work that way.
Most of us are not going to bethe Joe Rogan of the barstool,
and that's okay.
I don't think most of us wouldactually want to.
I think it sounds really good,but that's a whole.
You need a whole company tomake that type of stuff happen.
What I've noticed, carl, is Ithink people's desires become
their expectations.
So in the beginning, my desirewas I'm going to become a
(08:30):
full-time podcaster and I'llhave full-time income within a
first year, and then that becamemy expectation of how it was
supposed to happen.
It didn't happen that way.
It took us two years before wemonetized anything and I was
$30,000, $40,000 in debt.
My car broke down.
I couldn't buy my now wifeChristmas presents.
It was brutal, but I do thinkyou touched on something very
(08:50):
important.
If you're getting intopodcasting, yes, study,
communication, study, speaking,study, community building, study
business, because what you'reultimately doing is you're
creating a digital business, andthe faster we treat the podcast
like a business, I think themore successful and at least the
more longevity we'll have.
Carl Richards (09:11):
Well, even just how you present your content.
And there are many differenttypes of podcasts out there,
which is another issue, becausesome people don't want to do a
podcast that's business related.
They might want to do somethingthat is more in line with their
passion project or their hobbyand in that sense, okay, that's
fine.
But understand, that's adifferent kind of podcast.
Most of the podcasters I workwith they are business owners
(09:33):
and they want to leverage thepodcast to bring in more
prospects through developingthat know, like and trust factor
.
But it has to be as you said,it has to be intentional, you
need to intend for it to happen.
Factor, but it has to be as yousaid, it has to be intentional,
you need to intend for it tohappen, but it just doesn't
happen by magic.
It comes within your content.
Is your content bringing peoplein or are you repelling people?
I attune it to when I invitefriends to my house for dinner.
(09:56):
If they've never been to thehouse before.
Hopefully, if they're friends,they've been here at least once.
But if they've never been tothe house before, I'll say okay,
well, come on over.
Here's the address andthankfully, with GPS, you know
how to get there.
You don't need too manyinstructions, but if this was
the old days where we had towrite down directions for how to
get to my house, if I left outthose last two or three
directions but I still wantedyou out of my house for dinner,
(10:18):
you would never arrive right.
So I need to be intentionalwith my content.
I need to connect all the dots.
So if there's something I wantyou to do based on the content
I've shared, it could be checkout my website.
Get this free resource here.
I need to tell you to do that.
I just can't assume you knowit's there.
Kevin Palmieri (10:37):
Yeah, the conversion rate is probably
lower than you think it's goingto be.
In anything that you do in thepodcast space you can ask if you
get a thousand listens perepisode and you say, leave a
review, you might get to yourpens.
It depends on your audience.
It depends on.
But you do have to ask because,like you said, I think a lot of
us assume I just built a coffeeshop on the corner.
(10:57):
There's going to be peoplewalking by the coffee shop.
Some people will just come inand check out what we do With a
podcast.
You don't have a coffee shop.
It doesn't really exist inreality until somebody finds it,
and that's why it's superchallenging.
That's one of the questions Iask people all the time.
If you had a coffee shop, ifyou just built it and you were
trying to build business in,what would you do?
(11:18):
Would you just sit inside theshop and wait for people to come
in?
No, you'd be on social media.
You'd be on other podcaststalking about whatever.
You'd be in other coffee shopstalking about your coffee shop.
You'd be at conferences.
You'd be at the fire stationand the police station, the
school, giving away free coffeeto build your reputation and
your brand, but for some reason,when it comes to a digital
space, we lose a lot of thoseideas, and I think that outside
(11:41):
the box thinking is supervaluable.
Carl Richards (11:43):
It's extremely valuable.
You'd also be telling all ofyour friends, which is another
disconnect.
So it's not just about I have apodcast.
Oh, I have to make sure I putit out there on all my socials
and invite people to it.
I know individuals that havepodcasts and they still will not
stand up and say, hey, I have apodcast, or it's not in their
bio, or it's not on theirwebsite, or it's not, you know,
(12:05):
in organic conversation, saying,hey, first, I haven't seen in a
while X, y, z friend, have youlistened to the new show?
Oh, you didn't know I had apodcast because we haven't
talked to them.
Okay, well, check this out.
That's some foundational piecesto getting to building your
audience so that you have abetter chance of success.
And it is a numbers game.
(12:26):
But it's not about the numbers,because there are some very
successful shows out there thathave less than 40, 50 listeners,
but there are others that havethousands of listeners that
don't generate a dime right.
So it's about what are youdoing to create the space, or
create the platform that peoplewill not only want to listen,
but they'll want to follow youand they want to know more about
(12:47):
what you're doing.
Kevin Palmieri (12:48):
Yeah, I think the conversation that you have
outside of the podcast is justas important as the conversation
you have on the podcast.
I've really shifted the way Ilook at social.
Social media to me used to bethis really, really big thing in
terms of conversion.
So we're going to take the beststuff we got, we're going to
break it up into clips, we'regoing to put it on social media
and then call to action will belistened to the podcast and call
(13:09):
to action will be listen to thepodcast.
We do an episode every day, soour approach might be a little
bit different.
It's just it's kind ofdifferent.
Now I understand that Carl and Icould listen to the same
podcast.
We could be neighbors, we couldlisten to the same exact
podcast, unless when I'm takingthe trash out, I say, hey, carl,
what podcast are you listeningto?
My friend, and he tells me andI say I love that show.
(13:30):
I can't believe I'm listeningto the same podcast.
We'll essentially never knowthat we're listening to the same
show and unless we come out ofthe woodwork and self-identify
as listeners, the host willnever know we're listening
either, because podcastplatforms aren't really set up
that way yet.
They're doing a better job nowwith the audio.
You can audio the host and thattype of stuff, but it's not
like on social where it saysCarl followed you and then I can
(13:52):
send Carl a message and saythank you so much for following
me, carl.
Where did you hear about me?
That's the importance of socialnow is it creates the
opportunity for your audiencemembers to self-identify and
then you can talk directly tothem.
And if you're willing to takethat step, I think you're going
to make it further than most,because you're going out and
finding people and then makingsure they're actually coming
(14:13):
back to the podcast.
Carl Richards (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think that, being intentional
and I've actually shared thiswith clients often, especially
the ones who are already thingsthat some podcasters haven't
even done yet and they'rebuilding community or they built
community.
I have a colleague who hasbuilt a massive community in the
real estate space and everytime he's on stage he should he
doesn't, he should be sayingpull out your phones, go to your
(14:36):
favorite podcast app Apple,spotify, doesn't matter which
one it is.
Search the podcast, make sureyou add it to your playlist.
That is at least a good step,especially if you've already
built that community.
But I think we're getting there.
The other thing too, with thespace is and I know it's an
evolution is there's thismisconception that podcasting is
it's like the new radio, right,and it's just like radio, or
(14:58):
it's just like television.
Quite often I'll get asked well, what are the metrics?
What's my listenership?
How do I gauge that?
And there are some, as you said.
There's some tools out therethat can help us, but it's still
not a clear indicator of thesuccess of a show versus, say,
nielsen ratings or, or you know,large radio diary, uh, whatever
(15:19):
they call it in the U S I knowhere it's a numerous where they
they figure out who's listeningto the radio and when that
information is still in itsinfancy stages in the podcasting
space, and it's a differentmedium altogether.
Kevin Palmieri (15:31):
Yeah, it's the wild west.
I have clients who come in andsay, okay, where do I find my
stats?
It's like, ah, I'm, you canfind them on your host, whatever
host we're using, and then youcan go on Spotify for podcasters
and Apple podcast connect.
But outside of that, no, therereally aren't that great of
stats.
Go check out YouTube.
If you're putting it on YouTube, that's kind of helpful.
(15:51):
But that's a conversation I havewith people very early on is we
have to understand what metricsare you trying to measure and
why?
Why do you want more listeners?
Why, what is it about it?
Well, I assume when I get morelisteners I'll make more money.
Eh, maybe I like to think of itas subscribers.
I think subscribers is superimportant to look at and you can
look at that on Spotify forpodcasters and Apple Podcast
(16:13):
Connect and it's a really goodmeasurement of how sticky your
content is.
And I love looking at theconsumption rate on Apple
Podcast Connect.
The consumption rate dictateshow much of these episodes are
people actually consuming?
You could have the best guestsin the world, you can have the
best name in the world, you canhave the best brand, the best
(16:35):
marketing, the best everything,but if your audio quality is not
good and people aren't stickingaround, you're not going to be
very successful.
So that's a.
I love the consumption ratebecause it signifies to me that
you're producing good contentthat's sticky and you have a
very, very loyal audience.
And a loyal audience is anaudience that will grow and it's
also an audience that will movethrough your business.
If you have a group, they'll gofrom the podcast to the group
and if you have coaching orbusiness opportunities,
(16:57):
eventually that's the type ofaudience that would take
advantage of what you'reoffering.
Carl Richards (17:01):
Yeah, 100%.
And you touched on somethingthat I want to springboard,
because it's something that inthe podcasting space I don't
want to say it didn't exist, butit's certainly more front
facing now than it was before,and that's the okay.
I've listened to your episode,now what?
And there's this huge pushtowards community.
It's the, not just what you'redoing during the show, it's the
(17:23):
community you're buildingafterwards, it's the masterminds
, it's the what's happening inthe green room afterwards, which
, by the way, ends up beingbonus content, which is kind of
nice if you want to talk aboutmonetization, but it's also the
it's developing more of thatknow like and trust factor, so
people and people will consumethis content.
I think there's the trepidationthat well, if I do that, is
(17:44):
anybody going to show up, almostlike there's that imposter
syndrome people saying, well, Idon't think anybody will come
and listen after the show.
Oh, yes, they will saying well,I don't think anybody will come
and listen after the show.
Kevin Palmieri (17:55):
Oh, yes, they will, Sure they will Well.
And the other.
The other important piece of itis there's two types of calls
to action.
So I love what you talked about.
Your buddy, the real estateperson who has a call to action,
should have a call to actionfor the podcast.
Yes, you could easily say if youenjoyed this speech.
Say, you're on stage in frontof 500 people.
If you enjoyed this speech, Iactually have a course that's
(18:16):
$1,499.
And if you just click the linkor you put your phone over this
QR code, it'll take you rightthere.
The conversion rate of that isgoing to be very, very small.
But if you say if you enjoyedwhat we talked about here today
in this speech I actually have apodcast where we do an episode
every single week on content,just like this the conversion
rate will ultimately be higher.
(18:36):
So there's two types of callsto action there's highest
probability and there's highestROI.
From what I've seen, thepodcasts that create the most
successful community businessecosystem are the ones that are
relying on the highestprobability, not the highest ROI
.
The highest ROI is not going tohelp you build a community
(18:57):
because somebody is going to say, no, I don't want your product
and then they're going to leaveInstead of you saying if you
enjoyed what we talked abouttoday.
I have a Facebook group, allabout blink.
It's totally free.
You're going to fit in becauseit's going to be other podcast
listeners and we do an episodeonce every week.
For the other six days, you'regoing to have positive,
inspiring content to help yougain momentum Boom.
(19:18):
So that's another piece that Ialways tell people is if you do
an episode a week, awesome, whatare your audience members
supposed to do for the other sixdays?
They're going to go listen toanother podcast or they're going
to go find another group Mightas well be your and you might as
well put content in there as asconsistently as you can, maybe
not every day.
Carl Richards (19:35):
I know that's hard yeah, it's certainly,
especially if you're a businessowner.
There's a number of otherplates that you're spinning, so,
of course, oh well, put contentout there and again, you can be
intentional about it, but itdefinitely can be a daunting
process, but definitely itshould be something that you're
you're considering.
I want to talk about this and Ithink we've maybe touched on it
a little bit, but you'rereaching over a million people.
You're in more than 170countries, and I know that some
(19:57):
of that is statisticalinformation that says, hey, look
at where all your podcastlisteners are, but did you
anticipate that it would grow tothat size?
And what are some tips youcould share with people to get
there?
Kevin Palmieri (20:10):
No, I did not at all think it was going to grow
to that size.
I was hopeful that we wouldachieve some level of success,
but I never expected it to be.
We crossed the million dollarand the million listen mark on
the same day, which to me wasabsolutely mind blowing, and
that was two dreams come truethat I didn't imagine could
possibly happen.
(20:30):
I did a poll recently in ourFacebook group and this is
another reason why groups areawesome, because you can get,
you can get valuable data andthe question was how did you
find the podcast in the firstplace?
And then I just I took all theanswers and I went through and
figured out okay, what was themost common one?
The most common one was word ofmouth.
Word of mouth.
Somebody told me about thepodcast.
(20:51):
Somebody told me about thepodcast.
Okay, why did somebody tellthat person about the podcast in
the very beginning?
Carl, after a listener wouldself-identify, I would literally
message them on Instagram, Iwould give them my phone number
and we would hop on a FaceTimeand I had nothing to sell.
I had no products or noservices.
I just wanted to say, carl,thank you so much for listening
(21:14):
to the show.
Thank you for sharing.
I appreciate it.
I want to get to know you so Ican make more aligned content
for you.
Those are the people thatshared the podcast, because it
went from I listen to this showto I actually know the people
who do it.
And a lot of people will say weget stuck in this piece where we
say I only have like 10 peoplelistening to my episode.
(21:34):
That's a good problem to havebecause if you do it right, you
can go find all of those 10people.
It's a lot harder to find ahundred thousand people.
It's almost impossible, likethat's going to take you a lot
of time.
But you don't need a millionpeople to have a successful
podcast.
You need a thousand people wholove what you do and tell other
people about it, and that hasalways been our thought process.
(21:54):
I do a lot of things that arenot scalable.
I will send people DMs, I willjump on free calls, I send audio
messages, I send video messages, because I understand that the
more quote unquote successful weget in, the more social proof
we get, the more valuable thattype of stuff is.
So I think the simplest answeris we do a ton of one-on-one
(22:15):
stuff, even if it doesn't leadto money, because that's the
highest probability.
The highest probability is if Italk to you behind the scenes,
you'll come back and listen tothe podcast.
I might not make a dollar, butthat's okay.
You don't always make moneywith every interaction in a
business.
Sometimes it's going to the top.
It's the long game.
It's eventually.
Maybe you'll sign up forsomething.
(22:35):
If not, I get to know moreabout the audience and I can
make better content because ofit.
Carl Richards (22:39):
I think you hit the nail right on the head.
There is there's so much of arace to the show me the money
finish line, as opposed to the.
I really need to build out therelationships and, by the way,
you don't need to be doing apodcast every day, like Kevin is
.
You don't need to be doing allof those personal touches that
Kevin is doing, although they'rehelping, obviously, but you
(23:06):
certainly need to be intentionalwith what it is that you're
doing so you can get to thepoint where you're getting the
audience to follow you andideally then touch your products
and services and feel thatthey've developed enough of the
KLT so that they will do that.
And, by the way, this doesn'thappen overnight.
I'm sure Kevin, your first showor two or three or a hundred,
(23:29):
like you said you weren't makinga dime.
If anything, you were losingmoney, but you weren't
scratching your head saying, Iwonder how I'm going to make
money from my show.
It was a process to get to andnow it's a well-oiled machine,
but it didn't happen instantly.
Kevin Palmieri (23:44):
I was losing lots of money.
Yeah, I was losing a lot ofmoney.
We were traveling and going toevents and meeting people and
learning and growing andequipment and cameras and mics.
I was losing a no-transcriptand I worked with these five
(24:37):
people for two months and at theend of the two months I said do
you want to continue?
I can't do this for freeanymore.
And everybody said yes and thatwas the proof of concept for me
.
That was the proof of concept.
But if you think of the factthat I did eight calls for free,
never talking about moneyadding value, adding value,
adding value, adding value.
Of course, if they're going tocontinue working with a coach,
(24:58):
it's going to be me, becauseI've already added value and we
already have the no like trustand they know who I am behind
the scenes.
There's something about whensomebody gets to meet you behind
the scenes and they see thatyou're the same as you are on
the podcast, something changesbecause people feel like they
already know you.
So that was one of the bestlessons I I ever learned and I
think a lot of people are afraidto start there.
(25:20):
A lot of people are afraid we'rein this interesting place where
I think, unfortunately, peopleare teaching other people to be
entitled.
Well, you need a $10,000 course?
Oh, you only charge $150 anhour for coaching.
You need to raise your prices.
It's very hard to raise yourprices if you don't have demand.
You need demand and demandcomes from over-serving and
(25:41):
sometimes undervaluing your timein the very beginning, just to
build momentum.
Carl Richards (25:46):
Yeah, 100%.
And again, I think that's alsobusiness 101, where you can't
just offer a $20,000 service orproduct if there is no proof of
concept, right.
So you're either offering itfor free or it's a lower priced,
it's a lower ticket item whenyou're starting right, because
you don't have that proof ofconcept yet and people don't
know who you are.
Once you have that proof ofconcept, once people see you as
(26:09):
a Tony Robbins or something likethat, then okay, then you can
charge Tony Robbins prices.
That's when you can do it.
You don't do it the other wayaround.
And I think it's the same thingin the podcasting space.
You can't have six episodes and20 listeners and expect that.
Well, now I can go make $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 off my show,
because it's still not.
I mean, I have a colleague whoshared with me that his journey
(26:33):
was somewhere around episode 50,between 45 and 50 was where
things started to.
He saw his audience start toget bigger.
He saw a little bit of revenueAgain, it wasn't a lot at that
point coming in from the show,and so it was about a year in
for him going the one episode aweek.
But he said it took that longto build that out and again,
(26:55):
unless you are alreadyestablished in the world.
Like you're a Joe Rogan, youhave that celebrity status
behind you.
It's a journey world likeyou're a Joe Rogan, you have
that celebrity status behind you.
It's a journey and we reallyneed to embrace and enjoy the
journey as we're growing and notrace to just because there's
the potential of dollar signssomewhere and you have the
opportunity to learn so much.
Kevin Palmieri (27:16):
Somebody asked me this yesterday.
I was on a podcast that we weretalking about podcasts.
I love it.
And this person said what elsehave you learned through the
podcast?
And I said well, when you havea podcast, you get to ask
questions of guests.
If you're having guests on,that's amazing.
I've learned so much aboutbusiness.
I've had to consistently getoutside my comfort zone.
I've learned so much aboutaudio editing, video editing,
(27:38):
marketing, copywriting all ofthese things that I never
thought I was going to have theopportunity to learn so much.
To your point, carl, it's ajourney and money is a very,
very beneficial byproduct of yougrowing as a podcast, as a
business owner, as aninterviewer, as a speaker.
But it is a byproduct.
It's a byproduct of you addingvalue.
(27:58):
If you go into this with amindset of I'm going to add
value to my audience, I thinkyou're on the right path.
If you go into this saying I'mgoing to make money from my
audience, I probably wouldn'tbet on you and, again, I'm wrong
all the time.
So I'm not saying you can'tmake it that way, but I think
(28:19):
your audience can tell.
That's why, you see, you cansee a tick down when somebody
goes from not running ads torunning ads.
One of my favorite things in theworld to do is look at people's
shows, especially big shows,when they go from not running
ads to running a minute of ads,to two to four to five to six,
because that's usually when theyget their negative reviews,
because people feel likesomething's changing here and
(28:40):
you don't care as much about usas you used to.
Now, obviously, that personwants to monetize and make money
, so it's a fine line, butthat's really good data to have
because people can tell.
People can tell your intentions.
You might not sense it, butmost people can tell.
Carl Richards (28:54):
Yeah, I think that's the misconception too in
the podcasting space is themonetization attitude of, well,
I just need to go get somesponsors, or I need to get some
paid ads and that's going to.
That'll solve all of myproblems with as far as how the
podcast is going to make money,as opposed to okay, well, how
else can we leverage jointventure partnerships?
How can we leverage content?
How can we leverage community?
(29:15):
How can we leverage coaching?
What are some of the otheraspects we could do?
Even, how can we leveragehaving like a almost like a
podcast co-op, where it's a fewof us contributing content and
really paying for the productionourselves, so we're basically
hosting our own show, three orfour of us and being
contributors of the show.
Kevin Palmieri (29:36):
It's the creativity.
Most of us won't make ameaningful amount of money from
sponsorships, ads or affiliates.
It's just, most of us aren'tgoing to have the numbers to do
it, but that's okay.
But there's a bunch of otherways.
If you have a podcast thattalks about fitness and you're a
fitness coach, you have areally good path to monetization
.
The podcast becomes leadgeneration, aligned lead
(29:57):
generation, value add, communitybuilder, content builder, test
run, because you test outdifferent titles and see what
works and what doesn't.
It becomes research anddevelopment.
It becomes all of these amazingthings and then you get to hone
your offers.
Well, I would like to charge$150 an hour.
That's what I charge my otherclients.
Let me see if I can get that.
That doesn't really work here.
Okay, cool, but that's a reallygood aligned way.
(30:20):
If you're a coach or businessowner, the thing that you talk
about at the top of yourbusiness model should be the
thing that you make money on thebottom of your business model,
but if not, then it creates akink in the hose.
If you're a lawyer and you havea podcast on cooking, it's not
necessarily the best way tomonetize in that regard.
(30:42):
Obviously, there's other waysto do it but just as an example.
Carl Richards (30:49):
Right Kevin, this is a phenomenal discussion.
Kevin Palmieri (30:50):
I wish I could talk to you all day, likewise,
my friend.
Carl Richards (30:52):
I do have a couple of questions, though,
before I turn you loose.
Number one is I need you togaze into your crystal ball.
So it's a fortune tellingmoment here for you.
I see you have your crystalball.
Very good, he doesn't.
I'm just letting you know hedoes not have a crystal ball.
He's not dressed like he shouldhave a crystal ball either.
He doesn't look like a fortuneteller.
But question for you in yourestimation, in your experience
(31:16):
and opinion, where is thispodcasting thing headed, say,
over the next two to five years?
Kevin Palmieri (31:21):
I think AI is going to influence a lot, but I
think everybody that's puttingso much focus into AI is going
to regret it, because I thinkthe human element is being left
out, and I think those that keepthe human element in their
podcast business and brand aregoing to really, really benefit
from that.
That's one I am hopeful.
I don't know if I'd bet on it,but I am hopeful that the stats,
(31:44):
analytics and measurement toolsare going to get better in the
next two to five years.
I can't imagine they don't, butit's also been a long time.
I would imagine that, and Ithink video content is going to
continue to be the thing, and ifyou're not creating video
content, it might be a good timeto start practicing.
Maybe it's one video that goeson Instagram every week, or
(32:08):
whatever it is.
Just get comfortable in frontof video, because a lot of
people are going to consumepodcasts in video form, and I
know a lot of people are afraidof getting in front of the
camera.
So those are probably threeplaces I'd look Duly noted.
Carl Richards (32:21):
Yes, I know I'm due for a video version of this
podcast.
I've had more than one personsay that and I know that wasn't
directed at me personally.
Kevin Palmieri (32:28):
No, right, right right.
Carl Richards (32:28):
Yes, I know I need a video, Kevin, Thank you
for reminding me.
But again, I spent years in theaudio space and this is you
know, and podcasts started outas audio only and have been very
successful in that space.
I will say that audio is still,even in the video space.
Without audio, there is novideo and it goes back to that
quality you spoke of earlier,where you can have awesome video
(32:49):
or even not so awesome video,but if the audio quality is in
the toilet, it's going to repellisteners as opposed to bring
them into your camp.
So thank you for your insightson that.
Of course, Before I introducethe final thought, do you have
any resources or something thatyou'd like to pass along to our
listeners today?
Kevin Palmieri (33:09):
I have a podcast called Podcast Growth
University, where I do anepisode every single week on
growing, monetizing, scalingpodcasts.
So it's totally free.
There's no ads, there's nosponsorships.
It's just me really trying togive away the best stuff I have.
What have I learned?
What are clients going through?
So, yeah, that's on all thepodcast platforms, on YouTube as
well, and that's anotherpodcast I will never miss an
(33:30):
episode on.
I guarantee I will put on anepisode every single week.
Rain, snow, sleet, shine,whatever's going on, I will get
you an episode.
Carl Richards (33:38):
So if you like what you've heard today from
Kevin speaking, definitelylisten to the show.
We'll make sure the links forall that are in the show notes
as well.
And again, before I turn youloose to go and probably record
another podcast episode, thefinal thought on what we've
talked about today.
Kevin Palmieri (33:53):
Expectations determine reality for most of us
.
So just be very, very cautiousof what your expectations are
and where they're coming from,because if your expectations are
, I'm going to succeed, like the1% of people.
You might be in trouble and youmight feel like you're doing
something wrong when it's reallyjust par for the course and
you're playing the long game,certainly a great place to leave
(34:13):
it and enjoy the journeybecause, as you've heard from
Kevin, it's definitely a journey.
Carl Richards (34:22):
It's a fun journey and, Kevin, it's been a
pleasure having you as my guesttoday.
Thanks so much.
Kevin Palmieri (34:24):
Thank you, carl, I appreciate you
Carl Richards (34:24):
And thank you for joining us today.
Special thanks to our producerand production lead, Dom
Carrillo, our music guru, NathanSimon, and the person who works
the arms all of our arms,actually my trusty assistant,
Stephanie Gafoor.
If you like what you heard today, leave us a comment and a
review.
And If you like what you heardtoday, leave us a comment and a
review and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
(34:45):
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email, askcarl atcarlspeaksca.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes.
And if you're ready to take theplunge and join the over 3
(35:06):
million people who have said yesto podcasting.
Let's have a conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time you.
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