October 15, 2025 • 32 mins
Four and a half rejections and still pushing forward—that’s how Julie Pham, PhD, found her footing on the TEDx stage and, later, across 66 podcast guest appearances. We dive into the real mechanics of turning a complex personal journey—refugee roots, historian training, community organizing, and Seattle tech—into a clear message listeners remember and hosts want to book.
Julie breaks down the core idea behind her book, Seven Forms of Respect: respect feels the same but often looks different. From CC’ing everyone to prove transparency to keeping inboxes light to show trust, these mismatched “looks” spark friction at work. She shares how to name and align expectations so teams communicate better and collaborate faster. Then we get practical. Instead of waiting for invitations, Julie treats guesting like a craft and a numbers game: research shows that are still publishing, listen for tone and the closing question, write short pitches, and include 2–3 custom episode titles in the host’s style. We talk boundaries—what not to discuss—and how to stay specific with stories so your ideas stick.
There’s also a frank look at preparation. Some hosts send long questionnaires; others prefer a loose flow. Julie adapts to both, but she always keeps bullet-note stories ready to avoid rambling and to protect the edit. For new hosts and guests, her mantra is simple: do the best you can with today’s resources. Quality matters, perfection stalls. Learn in public, iterate fast, and let curiosity be the muscle you train, not a trait you either have or don’t.
If you’re ready to sharpen your message, land better bookings, and show up with clarity and warmth, this conversation gives you the playbook. Subscribe for more smart, real-world conversations on podcasting, communication, and community. And if this episode helped, share it with a friend and leave a quick review—it makes a big difference.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl (00:04):
Welcome to Communication Connection Community, the
Podcasters Podcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern-day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news,
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
It's going to be one amazingride.
Let's dive into today'sepisode.
And our guest today is JuliePham, PhD.
She's a Vietnamese-born,American-raised refugee,
(00:44):
Cambridge-trained socialscientist, an award-winning
community organizer, and Amazonbest-selling author.
We'll find out what she'swritten.
And she is a TEDx speaker.
We both share having been on aTEDx stage.
And I'm so thrilled that she'sjoining us today, sharing with
us her experiences about herjourney through podcasting.
Julie, welcome to the podcast.
Julie (01:06):
Thank you so much for inviting me on, Carl.
Carl (01:09):
I have to ask, before we give a little bit of your
background, what brought you tothe TEDx stage?
What was it?
Was it an ambitious thing, ordid somebody say you should come
on our TEDx stage?
Julie (01:19):
Oh no, it was an ambitious thing.
I wanted to be on that TEDxstage.
It will tell you I got rejectedfour and a half times.
Carl (01:25):
Four and a half times.
Julie (01:27):
Four and a half times, because one was I got to the
finals and then they told methat they ran out of funding.
And so they were gonna have topull it.
And so that's why I say half,because I was really close and
it wasn't because of me.
And so when people say, Well,how do you do TEDx?
And I'm like, you got to bepersistent.
Carl (01:45):
That's what that's true.
And I remember here where I amin Eastern Ontario, Canada, we
have TEDx Queens U.
And I remember applying, Ithink, twice.
Then they held an open micevent, which is sort of a way
for them to bring in some of thestudent speakers, but they will
still bring in communityspeakers or other expert
speakers to the platform.
And I remember, you know, afterI said, Hey, you know, thanks
(02:08):
for the opportunity to be onthis open mic stage.
And the one of the organizerssaid, Well, we'd love to have
you speak at TEDx, but we likewhat you're doing so much as an
MC and your broadcastexperience.
Would you consider MCing TEDxfor us next year?
And I said, Yeah.
Wow.
So I was a TEDx MC before I wasa TEDx speaker.
(02:32):
Both very cool experiences.
And yeah, I certainly get the,you know, you need to put
yourself out there and allowyourself to be rejected a couple
of times or four and a halftimes, uh, and then continuously
keep going after it becauseit's a phenomenal experience.
Not only do I think that peoplelearn a lot from that
experience, but it exposes themto so many great opportunities
(02:55):
after being on the stage.
I'm sure you experienced that.
Julie (02:58):
Oh my gosh, it was a transformational experience.
Carl (03:01):
So glad we have that in common.
There's one thing we have incommon for sure.
And we're podcasters, and we'lltalk about that momentarily.
How did you get to where youare today?
Give me the backstory of Julie.
Julie (03:12):
Okay, so let's see here.
I am trained as a historian andI realized I didn't want to
stay in academia.
So I left academia and wentback to help from my family's
Vietnamese language newspaper induring the start of the Great
Recession.
So 2008, I was there for threeyears and I got my real life
MBA.
And then I was really tired ofnot getting paid and just
struggling all the time.
(03:33):
And I'm based in Seattle, whichhas a really big tech industry.
So then I was able to find myway into tech and I spent nine
years there.
And all this time I did a lotof uh community organizing.
I got my second real life PhDin organizational development.
And that's when I realized,whoa, I think I can make, I was
doing a lot of work aroundcuriosity.
(03:55):
I was, I think I can make abusiness out of this.
So in the middle of thepandemic, I started Curiosity
Based.
And uh that was the start of uh2021.
And I gotta tell you, Carl, Iloved my job and it was a great
job.
And the only way I'd leave thisnonprofit executive job in the
middle of the pandemic wasbecause I just felt called to
(04:16):
start my own company.
And so that's what I'm doingnow.
Carl (04:19):
I think so many people can share that story, even
listeners about how, you know,in 2020, I had to pivot for
business or just things thathappened.
So it's ironic that becausethat's when we actually launched
Podcast Solutions Made Simplewas, and like you, I loved my
job.
I loved what I was doing inbroadcasting.
I wouldn't have done it for 25years if I didn't love it.
(04:40):
Other than the fact that radiowas like a narcotic, it gets in
your veins, and once it's inthere, it's hard to get it out.
But same thing though, if youlove a job, why would you leave
it?
Right.
So, but you figured out thatthis was your calling and this
was your path.
So, what was it then thatbrought you to the podcasting
space?
You've left this fantasticcareer, you've launched a
company, and you're getting onpodcasts as a guest.
(05:02):
What was it that led you there?
Julie (05:04):
So I wrote this book, Seven Forms of Respect, uh,
about how we can agree on howrespect feels to feel seen,
heard, acknowledged, and yet wedisagree on what it looks like.
And so, Carl, you and I mayhave, for example, do you want
me to CC you on all the emails?
Or don't CC me unless you needsomething from me.
And so, in any case, I had thisbook that I self-published, and
(05:26):
I was just, I gotta get thismessage out in the world.
I gotta hustle.
And you know, my parentsstarted a Vietnamese newspaper
to serve our Vietnamesecommunity.
So I think of my myself as ormy parents as the hustlers among
hustlers.
So I saw getting on podcastsand being a guest on podcasts as
a way to hustle and to sharethe message with the world.
Carl (05:46):
It sounds like you had that entrepreneurial spirit,
though, based on what youlearned from being with your
parents too.
And you, even though you hadthat fantastic job, it was
calling.
It was calling your name.
It was a calling.
Do this.
You need to do this while youcan, or it's something that you
should consider.
Let's talk about yourexperience as a guest, because
this is certainly something thata lot of people who are
(06:07):
trepidatious of getting onpodcasts, they go, I don't want,
I don't know what I'm going totalk.
What would I talk about?
What would I do?
So, what's that journey beenlike for you as a guest?
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned guesting on
shows?
Julie (06:18):
Oh my gosh, so many things learned and so many
mistakes made.
Carl (06:23):
Oh, welcome to the world of podcasting.
You made a mistake, welcome.
It's a day that ends in why.
Julie (06:29):
So I would say I have actually just before I came on
today, I actually counted up howmany.
So I keep a tracker of actuallyhow many podcasts I've been on,
and I've guested on 66 podcaststo date.
And I would say about 80% ofthem are ones I pitched.
So only 20% of them were onesthat people reached out to me
and invited me.
(06:50):
So I think I just want to showthat's a big myth.
Oh, you will get invited to beon podcasts.
Like, no, oftentimes if you'renot world famous and I'm not
world famous, then you'veactually got to hustle and find
your way to get on podcasts.
And so I think of podcasts asalso one of the reasons why I
wanted to do it, aside fromsharing the message, was to
(07:11):
practice sharing the message.
That real life interaction withsomeone, and they're asking me
questions that I hadn't thoughtof before, it sharpens my
ability to talk about my work.
And so even though my book cameout in 2022, I feel like so
much has changed because of thequestions that I've gotten.
Another thing is I don't justtalk about my book when I am, I
(07:34):
guess, not a podcast.
I actually have differentaspects of who I am.
And so, and this is somethingactually for anyone who is
considering guesting.
So, for example, if you have abusiness, you might feel, oh,
well, people don't want to hearabout my business or it feels
really salesy.
Well, there's probably someother aspects of who you are
that you do feel comfortabletalking about.
And then that can make it morecomfortable to talk about your
(07:57):
business later on.
So I think the first thing isto think about what are the
different things I could talkabout.
And so for me, yes, I coulddefinitely talk about my book.
And I would say 50 to 60% ofthe time I'm on podcasts, I'm
talking about my book.
I can also talk about being anentrepreneur.
I can also talk about being afemale leader.
(08:17):
I can talk about being arefugee.
I can talk about being havingbeen in the nonprofit space and
the tech space, about Vietnamesehistory, because actually I'm
trained as a historian.
So you'd be surprised actually.
And this is actually the funthing of when um discovering how
many podcasts there are outthere.
Like one had it was a podcaston how do you organize your
(08:39):
home?
And I'm just, you know, I feellike I have a pretty unique
story there.
So I'm gonna share that.
Or grieving.
Talk about your grief story.
My my dad passed away threeyears ago, and so sharing about
that.
So yeah, I think that why it'sto get my story out to practice,
refining, sharing it.
I never look at how many, howbig the podcast is.
(09:00):
Because honestly, if if onemore person knows of my story,
that's enough.
Carl (09:05):
It's funny because I think so many people do look at those
numbers.
They say, Oh, that's a bigshow, or oh, that guest isn't
very famous.
We don't want them on there.
I think it's doing the podcastcommunity and at large a
disservice by by not doing that,because there are a lot of
interesting people out there.
The fact that they're not JoeRogan or Oprah or John Assaraph
(09:26):
or any of those big names thatwe've we've come to know over
the years, doesn't make them anyless valuable.
And their stories might even bemore impactful than those ones.
So, what are some of the tricksthat you've learned?
Because that's that's one ofthe things that you're you're
saying here is you can talkabout all of these topics that
you mentioned, but it's not justabout talking about them, it's
about sharing an impactfulstory.
(09:47):
How do you go about doing it?
What's some of the preparationthat you've done to make those
stories land with the audience?
Julie (09:55):
To be specific, to give very specific examples.
I I know when I hear interviewsand people are just speaking
these generalities, do this,don't do this.
So, for example, I'll give yousome specific examples of
actually starting with how tothe some of the early mistakes I
made in terms of trying tosource podcasts.
(10:15):
So before I discoveredPodMatch, I went onto Fiverr and
I got a research of hey, canyou find me?
I think it was like 50 podcaststhat I could be on, and here's
the general profile.
And then they also sent me thiskit, this letter.
And I spent so much timewriting these beautiful,
heartfelt letters to each ofthese podcasts hosts that most
of them got ignored.
(10:36):
And and you know, I wouldlisten to the podcast too, and I
would just pour my heart outtrying to pitch.
And I I think actually I maybehad three or four podcasts from
that method.
So then I discovered Podmatch.
Carl, I never did onlinedating.
Podmatch is the closest thingI've ever done to online dating.
Carl (10:56):
Because that's how Alex sells it.
He says it's Tinder forpodcasters.
That's exactly what he says.
Julie (11:01):
I know.
So it's it's actuallyinteresting because I'm like,
oh, this is what it's like,which means also it's a numbers
game.
Yeah, it's a numbers game,right?
And so there, so in thebeginning, a mistake I made on
Podmatch was I would just, oh,I'm gonna write these long
letters on Podmatch with allthese links.
And that didn't get me very fareither, because no one wants to
(11:22):
read those.
And you were just telling mehow many pitches you get all the
time as a host.
And now I understand.
So then I was just okay, well,that's not working.
So maybe I just write theseshort little things.
And now what I do is I willlook at the pod uh, because I
usually use Pod matches.
It's like, okay, let me, andthey'll suggest some some
people, and then I'll go in andI'll look at their their
(11:44):
episodes and just okay, do thetitles look relevant?
Do I look like I would have amessage to share?
Do they actually interviewguests?
Some podcasts they say they do,but you go on and no, they're
just all solo shows, the topthem talking.
Do they have recent shows?
Because you know, so manypodcasters stop.
(12:05):
So if they haven't doneanything recently, then I'm not
gonna bother messaging them.
And then writing a really shortnote about the things that I
think are most interesting aboutme that would also be relevant
to them.
And something I've just starteddoing is I look at their titles
and then I try to write a fewtitles, suggest a few titles in
(12:25):
their style to help them imagineme being on their show and to
make it just a little easier forthem.
So those are just now how I'veevolved my pitching.
And and also here's anotherthing there are gonna be a lot
of no's, a lot of people notswiping on you, and that's okay.
It's a numbers game.
Carl (12:44):
Don't take it personally.
There are thousands I don'tneed, I don't know how big that
platform is.
By the way, for the record, Ithink that, and I've said this
more than once, Alex needs tostart paying me a royalty.
But the number of times Imention Pod match, either in
conversation with people or onthis podcast.
So he has to pay me a royaltyor something, or fly me around
(13:06):
the world, you know, for a year,whatever.
Or maybe I'm just aspokesperson.
I don't know.
But seriously, you're right.
There is a certain amount ofrejection that you you need to
be ready for because there arethousands, if not 10,000 or
12,000 podcasters out there, andyou might not be you might not
be a fit, number one, as iswhat's happened with me.
(13:28):
I've received well over 80invitations to be on my show.
That's a lot.
So it might take me a while toget back to you as I clear my
back catalog of requests alreadythat I'm working flute through.
So there might be a delay inthat.
There also might be, as yousaid, there are podcasters that
are only doing solo episodes.
Maybe they want to do guesting,but they either have been
(13:52):
tapped out or whatever it is.
Don't take it personally, asyou said, because as soon as you
take it personally, you'replaying the wrong game.
It's not about you, it's about,as you said, it's about the
numbers.
Julie (14:03):
Yeah.
And I think actually, I always,once I looked at the titles,
I'm like, I think I could be agood fit.
Then I try to listen to acouple of episodes.
And sometimes I'll go way back,years back, right?
And you're just kind of lookingfor things that are
interesting.
And then when I pitch, I willoften say, Oh, I heard your
episode on this, or I heard yourepisode on this.
Because I know podcasters like,oh, you actually you listen.
(14:23):
You're not just trying to pushyour message, but it also helps
me understand what I actuallywant to be in a conversation
with this person.
Because some people have reallyaggressive interview styles
where they're trapping theguest.
And I made that mistake.
I made that mistake.
I didn't listen.
And then I went on one and itwas Carl, it was so bad.
(14:46):
And I think he thought it wasbad too because it never went
live.
So I think he somehow thoughtthat I was super politically, I
don't know what.
So he was trying to bait me.
And I, my whole work is oncuriosity and trying to
understand differentperspectives.
And so also here's anotherthing I learned.
(15:07):
You have to know yourboundaries of what you're not
going to talk about.
So I tell people I don't wantto talk about political issues.
Carl (15:13):
Yep.
There are definitely things thatyou and you need to be able to
draw that line.
You need to be able to say, I'mnot going to talk about, you
know, sex and sexuality,lifestyle, politics, religion,
you know, anything that's couldupset the flow of the show,
unless you're on a religiouspodcast, in which case, by all
means, talk talk about religion.
But for most people, they'renot getting on those shows.
(15:34):
And if they are, then obviouslythey're there for that reason.
But you're right, you need toknow what those boundaries are.
I've had individuals on my showand I've been on shows where
people try to go down thosepaths and I skate around them.
Or I will just not sayanything, or they'll say
something trying to bait ananswer from me, and I'll just
(15:54):
smile and look pretty.
They'll wonder why I'm notresponding.
Yeah, very good point aboutthat.
And I'm hoping I'm not baitingyou.
I'm hoping I'm hoping this is athis is a free-flowing
conversation.
Please, yes, yes, yes.
Okay, good, okay, good.
Julie (16:09):
Well, it depends on the question.
I do not feel baited right now.
So, um, and then also what'sbeen really interesting too is
how different podcast hosts havedifferent styles.
And some, I mean, I know, Carl,from listening from previous
podcast episode of yours, thatyou don't send questions out
ahead of time.
Right.
Okay.
Some are super, I mean, I havesomewhere just, whoa, you just
(16:32):
sent me two pages of singlespaced questions.
Carl (16:35):
Right.
Julie (16:36):
And and some are just really, oh, here's the form, and
these are the questions.
And so it's the styles are allover the place.
And I really try to be, as theguests, mindful of what the host
is, what their preferences are,and to be prepared for that.
So I will, if it's supercasual, then I can be super
casual.
If it's super prepared, then Iwill prepare for that.
(16:59):
And um, and some want thesepre-calls.
And so, okay, if you want apre-call, I will say you also
have to know, because somepodcast hosts have such they
make you jump through so manyhoops.
I'm like, okay, I'm not doingthat.
There was one actually recentlywhere it's just well, watch
this video.
Okay, I can do the things inthe video, and now you can you
do all of these things?
(17:19):
You know, this long list, andhe also said, And you might
still not get on my podcast.
And I was just okay, I'm notdoing this because I'm not on
some world famous show here.
It's just so you also have tothink about for you how much
work you are willing to put intobeing a guest and how much they
(17:40):
are asking you for.
And are you willing to do that?
And is it worth your time?
Carl (17:45):
Yeah, it should be, in my opinion.
And again, I come from a placeof experience where I can have a
conversation with people.
Spent 25 years doing itprofessionally on radio, so it's
not like it's something that Ifeel like I need a litany of
information in order to engagein a conversation with you.
That's just me.
If you're going to sendquestions out or need questions
(18:06):
for people, that's fine.
But again, my challenge withthat is if you send a list of
questions, and I like yourexample of single space, two
pages.
Firstly, that's a lot ofquestions, number one.
And second, then every episodeis pretty much going to sound
the same.
No episode will sound exactlylike the one we're having,
because I will not rememberbecause it's a memory thing, but
(18:29):
also I will not rememberexactly everything you and I
talked about the next time Italk to a guest, but I also will
not remember word for word whatour conversation was.
And it's it'll be a differentperson, it'll be a completely
different person, even if we'retalking about aspects of
storytelling, organizing youryour thoughts or your you know,
(18:50):
preparing to be a sought-afterguest, which you are, you are a
sought-after guest.
Julie (18:54):
Only 20% of the time.
Carl (18:59):
Sought after guest.
But seriously, if you're tooprepared or too formalaic,
that's a tune out for theaudience, right?
This isn't a game show wherepeople come to be entertained.
In some cases, this is this isfor business, this is for
edutainment.
It's it's a number of reasons,but people are coming.
And if you want them to keepcoming back, no disrespect to my
(19:21):
fellow podcasters, but ifyou're asking the same drivel
type questions every time, itgrows stale after a while, in my
opinion, and in my experience.
Julie (19:33):
Well, I mean, I will actually so my because I've just
started a podcast, theCuriosity at Work podcast, and I
actually do have a set ofquestions.
It's also for me, my podcast isnot for, or I should say, I'm
managing my own expectations asa podcast host.
I'm not, oh, I'm gonna have somany people listening all the
(19:54):
time.
Actually, for me, it's at thisstage, it's how do I have a
conversation with a client or aprospective client and learn
their pain points.
Carl (20:03):
You're also, if I could just just back the train up a
bit here, you're also very newas a host.
So of course you're going tohave questions.
When I was, oh, I don't know,year two or upwards of year
three, I would still write outthree or four or five questions
as I was prepping the guest justbefore we hit record.
So I didn't have a pre-calllike some podcasters do.
(20:26):
What I would do is we wouldjust map out and I would just
make some questions there.
Now, honestly, I have noquestions in front of me that
I'm asking you.
We're just having an organicconversation.
Okay, even that has taken awhile.
So, of course, you're going tohave some questions or some
structure or some framework.
Something will evolve andyou'll be able to have a
free-flowing conversation orprep differently than you are
(20:48):
now.
I'll almost guarantee it.
Julie (20:49):
Absolutely.
I know that will be the casebecause I even just look at my
own, I look at my own businessand how much I've changed.
I've looked at even just theway I think about curiosity has
changed.
And I I think just start.
Oftentimes people are, oh, it'sgotta look exactly like this.
And it's just no, I mean, Ithink we just people just gotta
start.
And that's where I was justlike, you know, I mean, the
(21:12):
design on my podcast, I'm like,you know what, it's good enough.
Like I often actually approachbusiness like this.
It's like, and I'll tell myteam, like, you know, it's good
enough.
Let's keep moving.
And I like to ask, what are wegoing to learn?
Yes, we have goals that we wantto achieve, but what are we
going to learn regardless ofwhat we achieve?
Carl (21:32):
Sure.
The fine-tuning of quality, andI believe quality is very
important.
So you do need to put out aquality product.
You do need to put out aquality product, but your
quality product when you'restarting will be different
again, even six months from nowor a year from now, when you're
52 or 60 or whatever it is,episodes into your show, your
(21:55):
quality and your experience,because of your experience,
it'll change.
You'll realize that.
And if you go back and listento those first 10 episodes,
you'll be like, oh my goodness,what was I thinking?
But you'll level up.
And that's the thing, youalways leveling up.
We're not flying around inaircraft that look like what
Orville and Wilbur created.
They've evolved a little bitsince then, right?
(22:16):
So so will your podcast and sowill your experience, and so
will your, you know, yourexpectations in business and all
of those things.
What I like about what you doprofessionally is you're
allowing yourself and you helppeople to remain curious through
this process.
Julie (22:33):
Yes.
Speaking a little bit aboutcuriosity for a bit, I think of
curiosity as a skill, as apractice, not as a trait.
We talk about it as a trait.
What that means is, oh, youjust need to be curious, which
kind of implies you're notcurious, and I am curious,
right?
And yet we are all curious.
We just sometimes we choose notto practice it.
And so, with I would actuallydo a little reframe on what you
(22:56):
were saying about the qualityproduct, and I'd say, yes, we
want quality product.
We want to do the best we canconsidering the current
resources we have.
So, right, because at somepoint, I'm not a perfectionist,
actually.
Like I am anti-perfectionist.
It's just this is the best thatwe're gonna do considering our
(23:17):
resources right now.
And I think that's actuallywhat gets in the way of because
I mean, honestly, if I wanted tohave the podcast, the ideal
podcast that I kinds that I loveto listen to, it would not
happen.
And actually, before I startedpodcasting, I would do LinkedIn
Lives and I learned a lotthrough that because LinkedIn
Lives, what's nice is they're sofast, like easy to produce, and
(23:38):
it gets that interview.
I learned a lot from that.
And I did that for a few yearsbefore I was just okay, it's
time to do the podcast.
Carl (23:46):
Absolutely.
And I'm I'm glad you emphasizethat.
And you're right, it's based onwhere we're at right now.
When I was starting out as abroadcaster, I would write
everything out word for word,line by line, literally
everything.
And then at the end of mycareer, I didn't need to do
that.
I didn't need to come in withthat level of preparation.
(24:07):
It it I still needed to come inprepared, but it didn't need to
be written out word for word.
I could look at stories or Icould pick something up out of
the uh newspaper or magazine oronline article that I've read
and talk about it and have it infront of me and not feel I had
to write stuff out verbatim ofhow I was going to address it.
Unless there was somethingspecific, a punchline, a hook,
(24:30):
or something like that that Ineeded to create, that I made
sure I had written out.
But other than that, everythingwas very organically happening
because your brain is a muscle,right?
So I strengthened that part ofmy brain to be able to think on
my feet.
And just like, you know, justlike your your show, I remember
too, a podcast have evolved.
(24:52):
Podcasts have evolved.
Podcasts were literally youlisten to them on an iPod,
right?
That's where the whole termcame from.
Now they're video podcasts,audio and video.
There's all transcriptionpieces, there's there's shorts,
there's real, there's there'sall different types of things
that we attune and all startedfrom somewhere and it's evolved
(25:12):
based on where we're at at aparticular moment in time.
You can't go beyond that.
Here's where you are.
You can't put yourself in thefuture.
Okay, mentally you can preparefor it, but you can't just okay,
I'm in future time now, I'm inStar Trek mode.
No, it doesn't.
You can't transport yourselfinto the year 2030.
(25:32):
Sometimes I wish I could.
Julie (25:34):
Well, the thing though about podcasts is because
there's the host and there's theguest, right?
And those are two independentvariables, right?
So as the host, you can have alot of experience.
I mean, Carl, with all of yourbroadcast experience, you're a
natural interviewer.
I have a journalism background.
One of the reasons why Iactually send the questions
before is because of the guest.
Because the guest could besomeone who rambles if you don't
(25:57):
help them prepare a little bit.
And so that's actually one ofthe reasons they either will
speak in these big generalitiesand they can't come up with the
stories.
And I feel for that because noteveryone can come up with
specific example stories.
When I started out, I was, ohmy gosh, I remember being
paralyzed by a question.
And also that one, it was earlyon.
(26:18):
I got introduced to who's anational defense correspondent
who was going to be on radio.
And here I it was one of myprobably my first five podcasts.
And I was starstruck andfreaking nervous, right?
And and he, you know, sent mesome questions, but I was
definitely, if I could have atleast enough where I could have
(26:41):
bulleted it out, that would havebeen helpful for me.
So, and because so even now asa guest, I always try to have
some bullet points.
I don't write out my answers,I'm not going to read them
verbatim.
And some of the guests that Iinterview don't have public
speaking experience, and peopleramble out of nervousness.
And so I feel that actually mejust giving them some pointers
(27:04):
of what we're going to discusshelps with the rambling.
Carl (27:08):
This is why we edit.
But you can minimize yourediting by having a little bit
of a framework or a guideline.
But I think it's um whateverworks for you.
And you're right, there aresome individuals who are just
not comfortable with speaking,but they feel they need to step
up and get onto podcasts toshare more about who it is that
(27:29):
they are.
So you know what you're up forwhen you're on the show.
Julie (27:50):
And I want to hear the the host's energy level.
I want to know the closingquestion because usually podcast
hosts will have a closingquestion.
And I want to know what thatclosing question is gonna be.
And so, yeah, I think it'sreally if you're gonna be on
someone's show, honor them bylistening to a few episodes
(28:11):
beforehand so that you can getacquainted.
And also they will typicallyshare some things about the
audience because I also reallytry to be relevant and share
examples for that particularaudience.
For example, I was just on apodcast about women tech
leaders.
So I spent nine years in tech,but it's not a big part of my
(28:31):
life now.
I was bringing out all the techexamples, you know, because I
was just that audience.
Carl (28:40):
Julie, oh my goodness, we could probably talk for forever
and a day.
Firstly, I have to congratulateyou on your success, not just
professionally, but in thepodcasting space as a guest and
now as a host.
I'm so thrilled you've takenthat quantum leap.
It is a quantum leap to go fromguesting to hosting.
You're right, they are verydifferent.
(29:02):
Just because you're a guestdoesn't mean you're cut out as a
host.
And if you do want to be ahost, there's opportunity there
for you.
But understand it is definitelya journey.
And Julie, I'm so thrilled witheverything that you've done.
So thank you for everythingthat you've shared today.
I want to give you theopportunity, though, to share
with people how can they connectwith you?
What's the best way for peopleto learn more about you or if
(29:24):
they have questions about thework what they do?
How can they connect?
Julie (29:27):
Yeah, so on social media, I am most active on LinkedIn.
So please find me on LinkedIn.
It's truly fam.
I also do a lot of videos onYouTube.
There's just these short littletips on how to practice
curiosity in your life.
And then you can also visitCuriosity Based.
That's B A S E D dot com.
(29:47):
That's our website, and you canfind out more about what I do
there.
And you can just reach out tome, and we're gonna have our
podcast information, theCuriosity at Work podcast, there
as well.
Carl (29:59):
And we'll make Sure, those links are in the show notes as
well as the link to the websiteand the link to the podcast,
it'll be there too.
And I encourage you to listento Julie's show.
And she's new in the space, sooffer her some feedback.
Tell her what you think of theshow.
Go to wherever she's postingit.
If there's an opportunity tolike it or share it or whatever,
I know as a host, especially anew host, that helps.
(30:20):
That speaks volumes.
If you can help Julie out inthat space, Julie, it has been a
phenomenal conversation.
Thank you for being my guesttoday.
Before I turn you loose to goand record the next 10 podcast
episodes, I'll leave you withthe final thought.
Julie (30:34):
Learn in public.
Learn in public.
You can't be a perfectionistwhen you are a podcast guest or
a podcast host and just believethe next time we'll be better.
And so just be willing to leaninto that.
And it inspires other people aswell to learn in public.
Carl (30:54):
I think we'll leave it right there.
Julie, thank you so much forbeing my guest today.
Julie (30:58):
Thank you so much, Carl.
Carl (30:59):
And hey, thank you for being a part of the show today.
So glad you can join us.
Believe it or not, I can't workthis magic by myself.
So thanks to my amazing team,our audio engineer Dom Carillo,
our sonic branding genius KentonDolborowski, and the person who
works the arms.
All of our arms, actually, ourproject manager and my trusty
assistant, Julovell Tiongco,known to us here simply as July.
(31:22):
If you like what you heardtoday, let us know.
You can leave us a comment orreview or even send us a voice
note.
And if you really liked it, wehope you'll share it with your
friends and your colleagues.
If you don't like what youheard today, well, please feel
free to share it with yourenemies.
And if you know of someone whowould make a great guest on the
show, let us know about it.
You can get in touch with us bygoing to our show notes where
(31:42):
all of our connection points arethere, including the links to
our website, LinkedIn, andFacebook as well.
And if you're ready to be aguest on podcasts, or even start
your own show, let's have aconversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space and rock it.
Because after all, we'rePodcast Solutions Made Simple.
Catch you again next time.
Welcome to Communication Connection Community, the
Podcasters Podcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern-day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news,
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
It's going to be one amazingride.
Let's dive into today'sepisode.
And our guest today is JuliePham, PhD.
She's a Vietnamese-born,American-raised refugee,
(00:44):
Cambridge-trained socialscientist, an award-winning
community organizer, and Amazonbest-selling author.
We'll find out what she'swritten.
And she is a TEDx speaker.
We both share having been on aTEDx stage.
And I'm so thrilled that she'sjoining us today, sharing with
us her experiences about herjourney through podcasting.
Julie, welcome to the podcast.
Julie (01:06):
Thank you so much for inviting me on, Carl.
Carl (01:09):
I have to ask, before we give a little bit of your
background, what brought you tothe TEDx stage?
What was it?
Was it an ambitious thing, ordid somebody say you should come
on our TEDx stage?
Julie (01:19):
Oh no, it was an ambitious thing.
I wanted to be on that TEDxstage.
It will tell you I got rejectedfour and a half times.
Carl (01:25):
Four and a half times.
Julie (01:27):
Four and a half times, because one was I got to the
finals and then they told methat they ran out of funding.
And so they were gonna have topull it.
And so that's why I say half,because I was really close and
it wasn't because of me.
And so when people say, Well,how do you do TEDx?
And I'm like, you got to bepersistent.
Carl (01:45):
That's what that's true.
And I remember here where I amin Eastern Ontario, Canada, we
have TEDx Queens U.
And I remember applying, Ithink, twice.
Then they held an open micevent, which is sort of a way
for them to bring in some of thestudent speakers, but they will
still bring in communityspeakers or other expert
speakers to the platform.
And I remember, you know, afterI said, Hey, you know, thanks
(02:08):
for the opportunity to be onthis open mic stage.
And the one of the organizerssaid, Well, we'd love to have
you speak at TEDx, but we likewhat you're doing so much as an
MC and your broadcastexperience.
Would you consider MCing TEDxfor us next year?
And I said, Yeah.
Wow.
So I was a TEDx MC before I wasa TEDx speaker.
(02:32):
Both very cool experiences.
And yeah, I certainly get the,you know, you need to put
yourself out there and allowyourself to be rejected a couple
of times or four and a halftimes, uh, and then continuously
keep going after it becauseit's a phenomenal experience.
Not only do I think that peoplelearn a lot from that
experience, but it exposes themto so many great opportunities
(02:55):
after being on the stage.
I'm sure you experienced that.
Julie (02:58):
Oh my gosh, it was a transformational experience.
Carl (03:01):
So glad we have that in common.
There's one thing we have incommon for sure.
And we're podcasters, and we'lltalk about that momentarily.
How did you get to where youare today?
Give me the backstory of Julie.
Julie (03:12):
Okay, so let's see here.
I am trained as a historian andI realized I didn't want to
stay in academia.
So I left academia and wentback to help from my family's
Vietnamese language newspaper induring the start of the Great
Recession.
So 2008, I was there for threeyears and I got my real life
MBA.
And then I was really tired ofnot getting paid and just
struggling all the time.
(03:33):
And I'm based in Seattle, whichhas a really big tech industry.
So then I was able to find myway into tech and I spent nine
years there.
And all this time I did a lotof uh community organizing.
I got my second real life PhDin organizational development.
And that's when I realized,whoa, I think I can make, I was
doing a lot of work aroundcuriosity.
(03:55):
I was, I think I can make abusiness out of this.
So in the middle of thepandemic, I started Curiosity
Based.
And uh that was the start of uh2021.
And I gotta tell you, Carl, Iloved my job and it was a great
job.
And the only way I'd leave thisnonprofit executive job in the
middle of the pandemic wasbecause I just felt called to
(04:16):
start my own company.
And so that's what I'm doingnow.
Carl (04:19):
I think so many people can share that story, even
listeners about how, you know,in 2020, I had to pivot for
business or just things thathappened.
So it's ironic that becausethat's when we actually launched
Podcast Solutions Made Simplewas, and like you, I loved my
job.
I loved what I was doing inbroadcasting.
I wouldn't have done it for 25years if I didn't love it.
(04:40):
Other than the fact that radiowas like a narcotic, it gets in
your veins, and once it's inthere, it's hard to get it out.
But same thing though, if youlove a job, why would you leave
it?
Right.
So, but you figured out thatthis was your calling and this
was your path.
So, what was it then thatbrought you to the podcasting
space?
You've left this fantasticcareer, you've launched a
company, and you're getting onpodcasts as a guest.
(05:02):
What was it that led you there?
Julie (05:04):
So I wrote this book, Seven Forms of Respect, uh,
about how we can agree on howrespect feels to feel seen,
heard, acknowledged, and yet wedisagree on what it looks like.
And so, Carl, you and I mayhave, for example, do you want
me to CC you on all the emails?
Or don't CC me unless you needsomething from me.
And so, in any case, I had thisbook that I self-published, and
(05:26):
I was just, I gotta get thismessage out in the world.
I gotta hustle.
And you know, my parentsstarted a Vietnamese newspaper
to serve our Vietnamesecommunity.
So I think of my myself as ormy parents as the hustlers among
hustlers.
So I saw getting on podcastsand being a guest on podcasts as
a way to hustle and to sharethe message with the world.
Carl (05:46):
It sounds like you had that entrepreneurial spirit,
though, based on what youlearned from being with your
parents too.
And you, even though you hadthat fantastic job, it was
calling.
It was calling your name.
It was a calling.
Do this.
You need to do this while youcan, or it's something that you
should consider.
Let's talk about yourexperience as a guest, because
this is certainly something thata lot of people who are
(06:07):
trepidatious of getting onpodcasts, they go, I don't want,
I don't know what I'm going totalk.
What would I talk about?
What would I do?
So, what's that journey beenlike for you as a guest?
What are some of the thingsthat you've learned guesting on
shows?
Julie (06:18):
Oh my gosh, so many things learned and so many
mistakes made.
Carl (06:23):
Oh, welcome to the world of podcasting.
You made a mistake, welcome.
It's a day that ends in why.
Julie (06:29):
So I would say I have actually just before I came on
today, I actually counted up howmany.
So I keep a tracker of actuallyhow many podcasts I've been on,
and I've guested on 66 podcaststo date.
And I would say about 80% ofthem are ones I pitched.
So only 20% of them were onesthat people reached out to me
and invited me.
(06:50):
So I think I just want to showthat's a big myth.
Oh, you will get invited to beon podcasts.
Like, no, oftentimes if you'renot world famous and I'm not
world famous, then you'veactually got to hustle and find
your way to get on podcasts.
And so I think of podcasts asalso one of the reasons why I
wanted to do it, aside fromsharing the message, was to
(07:11):
practice sharing the message.
That real life interaction withsomeone, and they're asking me
questions that I hadn't thoughtof before, it sharpens my
ability to talk about my work.
And so even though my book cameout in 2022, I feel like so
much has changed because of thequestions that I've gotten.
Another thing is I don't justtalk about my book when I am, I
(07:34):
guess, not a podcast.
I actually have differentaspects of who I am.
And so, and this is somethingactually for anyone who is
considering guesting.
So, for example, if you have abusiness, you might feel, oh,
well, people don't want to hearabout my business or it feels
really salesy.
Well, there's probably someother aspects of who you are
that you do feel comfortabletalking about.
And then that can make it morecomfortable to talk about your
(07:57):
business later on.
So I think the first thing isto think about what are the
different things I could talkabout.
And so for me, yes, I coulddefinitely talk about my book.
And I would say 50 to 60% ofthe time I'm on podcasts, I'm
talking about my book.
I can also talk about being anentrepreneur.
I can also talk about being afemale leader.
(08:17):
I can talk about being arefugee.
I can talk about being havingbeen in the nonprofit space and
the tech space, about Vietnamesehistory, because actually I'm
trained as a historian.
So you'd be surprised actually.
And this is actually the funthing of when um discovering how
many podcasts there are outthere.
Like one had it was a podcaston how do you organize your
(08:39):
home?
And I'm just, you know, I feellike I have a pretty unique
story there.
So I'm gonna share that.
Or grieving.
Talk about your grief story.
My my dad passed away threeyears ago, and so sharing about
that.
So yeah, I think that why it'sto get my story out to practice,
refining, sharing it.
I never look at how many, howbig the podcast is.
(09:00):
Because honestly, if if onemore person knows of my story,
that's enough.
Carl (09:05):
It's funny because I think so many people do look at those
numbers.
They say, Oh, that's a bigshow, or oh, that guest isn't
very famous.
We don't want them on there.
I think it's doing the podcastcommunity and at large a
disservice by by not doing that,because there are a lot of
interesting people out there.
The fact that they're not JoeRogan or Oprah or John Assaraph
(09:26):
or any of those big names thatwe've we've come to know over
the years, doesn't make them anyless valuable.
And their stories might even bemore impactful than those ones.
So, what are some of the tricksthat you've learned?
Because that's that's one ofthe things that you're you're
saying here is you can talkabout all of these topics that
you mentioned, but it's not justabout talking about them, it's
about sharing an impactfulstory.
(09:47):
How do you go about doing it?
What's some of the preparationthat you've done to make those
stories land with the audience?
Julie (09:55):
To be specific, to give very specific examples.
I I know when I hear interviewsand people are just speaking
these generalities, do this,don't do this.
So, for example, I'll give yousome specific examples of
actually starting with how tothe some of the early mistakes I
made in terms of trying tosource podcasts.
(10:15):
So before I discoveredPodMatch, I went onto Fiverr and
I got a research of hey, canyou find me?
I think it was like 50 podcaststhat I could be on, and here's
the general profile.
And then they also sent me thiskit, this letter.
And I spent so much timewriting these beautiful,
heartfelt letters to each ofthese podcasts hosts that most
of them got ignored.
(10:36):
And and you know, I wouldlisten to the podcast too, and I
would just pour my heart outtrying to pitch.
And I I think actually I maybehad three or four podcasts from
that method.
So then I discovered Podmatch.
Carl, I never did onlinedating.
Podmatch is the closest thingI've ever done to online dating.
Carl (10:56):
Because that's how Alex sells it.
He says it's Tinder forpodcasters.
That's exactly what he says.
Julie (11:01):
I know.
So it's it's actuallyinteresting because I'm like,
oh, this is what it's like,which means also it's a numbers
game.
Yeah, it's a numbers game,right?
And so there, so in thebeginning, a mistake I made on
Podmatch was I would just, oh,I'm gonna write these long
letters on Podmatch with allthese links.
And that didn't get me very fareither, because no one wants to
(11:22):
read those.
And you were just telling mehow many pitches you get all the
time as a host.
And now I understand.
So then I was just okay, well,that's not working.
So maybe I just write theseshort little things.
And now what I do is I willlook at the pod uh, because I
usually use Pod matches.
It's like, okay, let me, andthey'll suggest some some
people, and then I'll go in andI'll look at their their
(11:44):
episodes and just okay, do thetitles look relevant?
Do I look like I would have amessage to share?
Do they actually interviewguests?
Some podcasts they say they do,but you go on and no, they're
just all solo shows, the topthem talking.
Do they have recent shows?
Because you know, so manypodcasters stop.
(12:05):
So if they haven't doneanything recently, then I'm not
gonna bother messaging them.
And then writing a really shortnote about the things that I
think are most interesting aboutme that would also be relevant
to them.
And something I've just starteddoing is I look at their titles
and then I try to write a fewtitles, suggest a few titles in
(12:25):
their style to help them imagineme being on their show and to
make it just a little easier forthem.
So those are just now how I'veevolved my pitching.
And and also here's anotherthing there are gonna be a lot
of no's, a lot of people notswiping on you, and that's okay.
It's a numbers game.
Carl (12:44):
Don't take it personally.
There are thousands I don'tneed, I don't know how big that
platform is.
By the way, for the record, Ithink that, and I've said this
more than once, Alex needs tostart paying me a royalty.
But the number of times Imention Pod match, either in
conversation with people or onthis podcast.
So he has to pay me a royaltyor something, or fly me around
(13:06):
the world, you know, for a year,whatever.
Or maybe I'm just aspokesperson.
I don't know.
But seriously, you're right.
There is a certain amount ofrejection that you you need to
be ready for because there arethousands, if not 10,000 or
12,000 podcasters out there, andyou might not be you might not
be a fit, number one, as iswhat's happened with me.
(13:28):
I've received well over 80invitations to be on my show.
That's a lot.
So it might take me a while toget back to you as I clear my
back catalog of requests alreadythat I'm working flute through.
So there might be a delay inthat.
There also might be, as yousaid, there are podcasters that
are only doing solo episodes.
Maybe they want to do guesting,but they either have been
(13:52):
tapped out or whatever it is.
Don't take it personally, asyou said, because as soon as you
take it personally, you'replaying the wrong game.
It's not about you, it's about,as you said, it's about the
numbers.
Julie (14:03):
Yeah.
And I think actually, I always,once I looked at the titles,
I'm like, I think I could be agood fit.
Then I try to listen to acouple of episodes.
And sometimes I'll go way back,years back, right?
And you're just kind of lookingfor things that are
interesting.
And then when I pitch, I willoften say, Oh, I heard your
episode on this, or I heard yourepisode on this.
Because I know podcasters like,oh, you actually you listen.
(14:23):
You're not just trying to pushyour message, but it also helps
me understand what I actuallywant to be in a conversation
with this person.
Because some people have reallyaggressive interview styles
where they're trapping theguest.
And I made that mistake.
I made that mistake.
I didn't listen.
And then I went on one and itwas Carl, it was so bad.
(14:46):
And I think he thought it wasbad too because it never went
live.
So I think he somehow thoughtthat I was super politically, I
don't know what.
So he was trying to bait me.
And I, my whole work is oncuriosity and trying to
understand differentperspectives.
And so also here's anotherthing I learned.
(15:07):
You have to know yourboundaries of what you're not
going to talk about.
So I tell people I don't wantto talk about political issues.
Carl (15:13):
Yep.
There are definitely things thatyou and you need to be able to
draw that line.
You need to be able to say, I'mnot going to talk about, you
know, sex and sexuality,lifestyle, politics, religion,
you know, anything that's couldupset the flow of the show,
unless you're on a religiouspodcast, in which case, by all
means, talk talk about religion.
But for most people, they'renot getting on those shows.
(15:34):
And if they are, then obviouslythey're there for that reason.
But you're right, you need toknow what those boundaries are.
I've had individuals on my showand I've been on shows where
people try to go down thosepaths and I skate around them.
Or I will just not sayanything, or they'll say
something trying to bait ananswer from me, and I'll just
(15:54):
smile and look pretty.
They'll wonder why I'm notresponding.
Yeah, very good point aboutthat.
And I'm hoping I'm not baitingyou.
I'm hoping I'm hoping this is athis is a free-flowing
conversation.
Please, yes, yes, yes.
Okay, good, okay, good.
Julie (16:09):
Well, it depends on the question.
I do not feel baited right now.
So, um, and then also what'sbeen really interesting too is
how different podcast hosts havedifferent styles.
And some, I mean, I know, Carl,from listening from previous
podcast episode of yours, thatyou don't send questions out
ahead of time.
Right.
Okay.
Some are super, I mean, I havesomewhere just, whoa, you just
(16:32):
sent me two pages of singlespaced questions.
Carl (16:35):
Right.
Julie (16:36):
And and some are just really, oh, here's the form, and
these are the questions.
And so it's the styles are allover the place.
And I really try to be, as theguests, mindful of what the host
is, what their preferences are,and to be prepared for that.
So I will, if it's supercasual, then I can be super
casual.
If it's super prepared, then Iwill prepare for that.
(16:59):
And um, and some want thesepre-calls.
And so, okay, if you want apre-call, I will say you also
have to know, because somepodcast hosts have such they
make you jump through so manyhoops.
I'm like, okay, I'm not doingthat.
There was one actually recentlywhere it's just well, watch
this video.
Okay, I can do the things inthe video, and now you can you
do all of these things?
(17:19):
You know, this long list, andhe also said, And you might
still not get on my podcast.
And I was just okay, I'm notdoing this because I'm not on
some world famous show here.
It's just so you also have tothink about for you how much
work you are willing to put intobeing a guest and how much they
(17:40):
are asking you for.
And are you willing to do that?
And is it worth your time?
Carl (17:45):
Yeah, it should be, in my opinion.
And again, I come from a placeof experience where I can have a
conversation with people.
Spent 25 years doing itprofessionally on radio, so it's
not like it's something that Ifeel like I need a litany of
information in order to engagein a conversation with you.
That's just me.
If you're going to sendquestions out or need questions
(18:06):
for people, that's fine.
But again, my challenge withthat is if you send a list of
questions, and I like yourexample of single space, two
pages.
Firstly, that's a lot ofquestions, number one.
And second, then every episodeis pretty much going to sound
the same.
No episode will sound exactlylike the one we're having,
because I will not rememberbecause it's a memory thing, but
(18:29):
also I will not rememberexactly everything you and I
talked about the next time Italk to a guest, but I also will
not remember word for word whatour conversation was.
And it's it'll be a differentperson, it'll be a completely
different person, even if we'retalking about aspects of
storytelling, organizing youryour thoughts or your you know,
(18:50):
preparing to be a sought-afterguest, which you are, you are a
sought-after guest.
Julie (18:54):
Only 20% of the time.
Carl (18:59):
Sought after guest.
But seriously, if you're tooprepared or too formalaic,
that's a tune out for theaudience, right?
This isn't a game show wherepeople come to be entertained.
In some cases, this is this isfor business, this is for
edutainment.
It's it's a number of reasons,but people are coming.
And if you want them to keepcoming back, no disrespect to my
(19:21):
fellow podcasters, but ifyou're asking the same drivel
type questions every time, itgrows stale after a while, in my
opinion, and in my experience.
Julie (19:33):
Well, I mean, I will actually so my because I've just
started a podcast, theCuriosity at Work podcast, and I
actually do have a set ofquestions.
It's also for me, my podcast isnot for, or I should say, I'm
managing my own expectations asa podcast host.
I'm not, oh, I'm gonna have somany people listening all the
(19:54):
time.
Actually, for me, it's at thisstage, it's how do I have a
conversation with a client or aprospective client and learn
their pain points.
Carl (20:03):
You're also, if I could just just back the train up a
bit here, you're also very newas a host.
So of course you're going tohave questions.
When I was, oh, I don't know,year two or upwards of year
three, I would still write outthree or four or five questions
as I was prepping the guest justbefore we hit record.
So I didn't have a pre-calllike some podcasters do.
(20:26):
What I would do is we wouldjust map out and I would just
make some questions there.
Now, honestly, I have noquestions in front of me that
I'm asking you.
We're just having an organicconversation.
Okay, even that has taken awhile.
So, of course, you're going tohave some questions or some
structure or some framework.
Something will evolve andyou'll be able to have a
free-flowing conversation orprep differently than you are
(20:48):
now.
I'll almost guarantee it.
Julie (20:49):
Absolutely.
I know that will be the casebecause I even just look at my
own, I look at my own businessand how much I've changed.
I've looked at even just theway I think about curiosity has
changed.
And I I think just start.
Oftentimes people are, oh, it'sgotta look exactly like this.
And it's just no, I mean, Ithink we just people just gotta
start.
And that's where I was justlike, you know, I mean, the
(21:12):
design on my podcast, I'm like,you know what, it's good enough.
Like I often actually approachbusiness like this.
It's like, and I'll tell myteam, like, you know, it's good
enough.
Let's keep moving.
And I like to ask, what are wegoing to learn?
Yes, we have goals that we wantto achieve, but what are we
going to learn regardless ofwhat we achieve?
Carl (21:32):
Sure.
The fine-tuning of quality, andI believe quality is very
important.
So you do need to put out aquality product.
You do need to put out aquality product, but your
quality product when you'restarting will be different
again, even six months from nowor a year from now, when you're
52 or 60 or whatever it is,episodes into your show, your
(21:55):
quality and your experience,because of your experience,
it'll change.
You'll realize that.
And if you go back and listento those first 10 episodes,
you'll be like, oh my goodness,what was I thinking?
But you'll level up.
And that's the thing, youalways leveling up.
We're not flying around inaircraft that look like what
Orville and Wilbur created.
They've evolved a little bitsince then, right?
(22:16):
So so will your podcast and sowill your experience, and so
will your, you know, yourexpectations in business and all
of those things.
What I like about what you doprofessionally is you're
allowing yourself and you helppeople to remain curious through
this process.
Julie (22:33):
Yes.
Speaking a little bit aboutcuriosity for a bit, I think of
curiosity as a skill, as apractice, not as a trait.
We talk about it as a trait.
What that means is, oh, youjust need to be curious, which
kind of implies you're notcurious, and I am curious,
right?
And yet we are all curious.
We just sometimes we choose notto practice it.
And so, with I would actuallydo a little reframe on what you
(22:56):
were saying about the qualityproduct, and I'd say, yes, we
want quality product.
We want to do the best we canconsidering the current
resources we have.
So, right, because at somepoint, I'm not a perfectionist,
actually.
Like I am anti-perfectionist.
It's just this is the best thatwe're gonna do considering our
(23:17):
resources right now.
And I think that's actuallywhat gets in the way of because
I mean, honestly, if I wanted tohave the podcast, the ideal
podcast that I kinds that I loveto listen to, it would not
happen.
And actually, before I startedpodcasting, I would do LinkedIn
Lives and I learned a lotthrough that because LinkedIn
Lives, what's nice is they're sofast, like easy to produce, and
(23:38):
it gets that interview.
I learned a lot from that.
And I did that for a few yearsbefore I was just okay, it's
time to do the podcast.
Carl (23:46):
Absolutely.
And I'm I'm glad you emphasizethat.
And you're right, it's based onwhere we're at right now.
When I was starting out as abroadcaster, I would write
everything out word for word,line by line, literally
everything.
And then at the end of mycareer, I didn't need to do
that.
I didn't need to come in withthat level of preparation.
(24:07):
It it I still needed to come inprepared, but it didn't need to
be written out word for word.
I could look at stories or Icould pick something up out of
the uh newspaper or magazine oronline article that I've read
and talk about it and have it infront of me and not feel I had
to write stuff out verbatim ofhow I was going to address it.
Unless there was somethingspecific, a punchline, a hook,
(24:30):
or something like that that Ineeded to create, that I made
sure I had written out.
But other than that, everythingwas very organically happening
because your brain is a muscle,right?
So I strengthened that part ofmy brain to be able to think on
my feet.
And just like, you know, justlike your your show, I remember
too, a podcast have evolved.
(24:52):
Podcasts have evolved.
Podcasts were literally youlisten to them on an iPod,
right?
That's where the whole termcame from.
Now they're video podcasts,audio and video.
There's all transcriptionpieces, there's there's shorts,
there's real, there's there'sall different types of things
that we attune and all startedfrom somewhere and it's evolved
(25:12):
based on where we're at at aparticular moment in time.
You can't go beyond that.
Here's where you are.
You can't put yourself in thefuture.
Okay, mentally you can preparefor it, but you can't just okay,
I'm in future time now, I'm inStar Trek mode.
No, it doesn't.
You can't transport yourselfinto the year 2030.
(25:32):
Sometimes I wish I could.
Julie (25:34):
Well, the thing though about podcasts is because
there's the host and there's theguest, right?
And those are two independentvariables, right?
So as the host, you can have alot of experience.
I mean, Carl, with all of yourbroadcast experience, you're a
natural interviewer.
I have a journalism background.
One of the reasons why Iactually send the questions
before is because of the guest.
Because the guest could besomeone who rambles if you don't
(25:57):
help them prepare a little bit.
And so that's actually one ofthe reasons they either will
speak in these big generalitiesand they can't come up with the
stories.
And I feel for that because noteveryone can come up with
specific example stories.
When I started out, I was, ohmy gosh, I remember being
paralyzed by a question.
And also that one, it was earlyon.
(26:18):
I got introduced to who's anational defense correspondent
who was going to be on radio.
And here I it was one of myprobably my first five podcasts.
And I was starstruck andfreaking nervous, right?
And and he, you know, sent mesome questions, but I was
definitely, if I could have atleast enough where I could have
(26:41):
bulleted it out, that would havebeen helpful for me.
So, and because so even now asa guest, I always try to have
some bullet points.
I don't write out my answers,I'm not going to read them
verbatim.
And some of the guests that Iinterview don't have public
speaking experience, and peopleramble out of nervousness.
And so I feel that actually mejust giving them some pointers
(27:04):
of what we're going to discusshelps with the rambling.
Carl (27:08):
This is why we edit.
But you can minimize yourediting by having a little bit
of a framework or a guideline.
But I think it's um whateverworks for you.
And you're right, there aresome individuals who are just
not comfortable with speaking,but they feel they need to step
up and get onto podcasts toshare more about who it is that
(27:29):
they are.
So you know what you're up forwhen you're on the show.
Julie (27:50):
And I want to hear the the host's energy level.
I want to know the closingquestion because usually podcast
hosts will have a closingquestion.
And I want to know what thatclosing question is gonna be.
And so, yeah, I think it'sreally if you're gonna be on
someone's show, honor them bylistening to a few episodes
(28:11):
beforehand so that you can getacquainted.
And also they will typicallyshare some things about the
audience because I also reallytry to be relevant and share
examples for that particularaudience.
For example, I was just on apodcast about women tech
leaders.
So I spent nine years in tech,but it's not a big part of my
(28:31):
life now.
I was bringing out all the techexamples, you know, because I
was just that audience.
Carl (28:40):
Julie, oh my goodness, we could probably talk for forever
and a day.
Firstly, I have to congratulateyou on your success, not just
professionally, but in thepodcasting space as a guest and
now as a host.
I'm so thrilled you've takenthat quantum leap.
It is a quantum leap to go fromguesting to hosting.
You're right, they are verydifferent.
(29:02):
Just because you're a guestdoesn't mean you're cut out as a
host.
And if you do want to be ahost, there's opportunity there
for you.
But understand it is definitelya journey.
And Julie, I'm so thrilled witheverything that you've done.
So thank you for everythingthat you've shared today.
I want to give you theopportunity, though, to share
with people how can they connectwith you?
What's the best way for peopleto learn more about you or if
(29:24):
they have questions about thework what they do?
How can they connect?
Julie (29:27):
Yeah, so on social media, I am most active on LinkedIn.
So please find me on LinkedIn.
It's truly fam.
I also do a lot of videos onYouTube.
There's just these short littletips on how to practice
curiosity in your life.
And then you can also visitCuriosity Based.
That's B A S E D dot com.
(29:47):
That's our website, and you canfind out more about what I do
there.
And you can just reach out tome, and we're gonna have our
podcast information, theCuriosity at Work podcast, there
as well.
Carl (29:59):
And we'll make Sure, those links are in the show notes as
well as the link to the websiteand the link to the podcast,
it'll be there too.
And I encourage you to listento Julie's show.
And she's new in the space, sooffer her some feedback.
Tell her what you think of theshow.
Go to wherever she's postingit.
If there's an opportunity tolike it or share it or whatever,
I know as a host, especially anew host, that helps.
(30:20):
That speaks volumes.
If you can help Julie out inthat space, Julie, it has been a
phenomenal conversation.
Thank you for being my guesttoday.
Before I turn you loose to goand record the next 10 podcast
episodes, I'll leave you withthe final thought.
Julie (30:34):
Learn in public.
Learn in public.
You can't be a perfectionistwhen you are a podcast guest or
a podcast host and just believethe next time we'll be better.
And so just be willing to leaninto that.
And it inspires other people aswell to learn in public.
Carl (30:54):
I think we'll leave it right there.
Julie, thank you so much forbeing my guest today.
Julie (30:58):
Thank you so much, Carl.
Carl (30:59):
And hey, thank you for being a part of the show today.
So glad you can join us.
Believe it or not, I can't workthis magic by myself.
So thanks to my amazing team,our audio engineer Dom Carillo,
our sonic branding genius KentonDolborowski, and the person who
works the arms.
All of our arms, actually, ourproject manager and my trusty
assistant, Julovell Tiongco,known to us here simply as July.
(31:22):
If you like what you heardtoday, let us know.
You can leave us a comment orreview or even send us a voice
note.
And if you really liked it, wehope you'll share it with your
friends and your colleagues.
If you don't like what youheard today, well, please feel
free to share it with yourenemies.
And if you know of someone whowould make a great guest on the
show, let us know about it.
You can get in touch with us bygoing to our show notes where
(31:42):
all of our connection points arethere, including the links to
our website, LinkedIn, andFacebook as well.
And if you're ready to be aguest on podcasts, or even start
your own show, let's have aconversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space and rock it.
Because after all, we'rePodcast Solutions Made Simple.
Catch you again next time.
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