September 3, 2024 • 25 mins
Discover the art of firing your resume and revolutionize your communication strategies with our special guest, Katherine McCord! Katherine, a trailblazer in people operations and neurodiversity advocacy, introduces her groundbreaking ideas alongside her work with the Neuroverse organization. Learn about the "ego mechanism" and how our brain’s defensive responses can impact everyday interactions, from heated family debates to workplace disagreements. Katherine offers invaluable insights on managing this mechanism for healthier, more effective communication.
Are you addicted to negative communication? You’re not alone. This episode sheds light on the brain's reaction to stress, leading to cycles of confrontation or avoidance that affect our well-being. We dive deep into the physiological and psychological impacts of constant stress, with actionable techniques to manage these responses. By recognizing the initial physical signs of stress and using grounding exercises, you can train your brain to respond more calmly and healthily in stressful situations.
Katherine is the Founder and President of the People Operations Consulting firm Titan Management, an international speaker, and the Founder of The Neuroverse, a not-for-profit organization dedicated to neurodiversity. She developed the first ever anti-bias Applicant Tracking System and created the "Make Accommodations Standard" process and campaign. She loves to stay busy and further her three missions: integrity, inclusion, and innovation.
With Katherine, it's all about expanding humanity.
Connect with Katherine:
Website
https://www.titanmanagementusa.com/
Socials
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDH88heZK21pHbo_aYt-sgA
LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherine-mccord-093bb343/
Got a question about something you heard today? Have a great suggestion for a topic or know someone who should be a guest? Reach out to us:
askcarl@carlspeaks.ca
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:04):
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episodeand just as we get started,
don't forget, if podcasting issomething that you are curious
about, we can satisfy yourcuriosities.
Here at Podcast Solutions MadeSimple, we have many
(00:44):
opportunities for you as a realestate professional, coach,
consultant or, hey, you knowwhat.
If you have an idea for apodcast and you're not sure if
it's going to fly, reach out tous.
We'll make sure all thatinformation is in the show notes
so you can connect with us.
So you know not only what it isthat we do, but the benefits
and effectiveness of having yourown show or even guesting on
(01:07):
other shows too, which I've hadthe opportunity to be a guest on
some amazing shows, and we'vehad some great guests on the
show.
Today is no exception.
We have another amazing guest.
We're going to talk about a lotof things, I'm sure, including
neurodiversity and breaking theego mechanism.
What is that?
Well, let's find out.
My guest today is KatherineMcCord.
(01:28):
She's the founder and presidentof the people operations
consulting firm Titan Managementand the chief people officer
for Previewed, an innovative jobboard that fires the resume.
Fires the resume.
Never heard that expressionbefore, an international speaker
which is near and dear to myheart and the founder of the
Neuroverse, a not-for-profitorganization dedicated to
(01:49):
neurodiversity.
She loves to stay busy andfurther her three missions
integrity, inclusion andinnovation and we are so blessed
she is here today because, withKatherine, it's all about
expanding humanity and I'm gladwe have a human on the show
today.
Katherine, welcome to thepodcast.
Katherine McCord (02:09):
Thank you so very much for having me.
I'm very excited to be here and, by the way I coined the phrase
fire the resume, I actuallyhave a whole speech that I give
around it.
I've done whole educationalprograms and products actually
around this concept, and so it'sjust something I firmly believe
in.
Resumes stink and they need togo away forever.
So there you go fire the resume.
Carl Richards (02:29):
It's not an expression you hear, obviously
because you coined it right.
So when I saw it, I'm like firethe.
What is that?
So, anyways, we're not going totalk about that necessarily
today, but I know we have somany things that we want to
discuss.
Oh, and, by the way, we forgotto mention that Katherine is
also a fellow podcaster.
Katherine McCord (02:45):
I am.
I have a show called CareerLaunch Live.
Carl Richards (02:52):
We'll make sure those notes for the show are in
our show notes so you can checkout her show.
But I wanted to jump into theconversation and get a little
bit more direction on thisconcept of ego mechanism.
I spent 25 years in the radiobroadcasting world a very
ego-driven business.
I know we talked about this offmic a little bit, but I've
never heard this term the egomechanism.
Katherine McCord (03:16):
So what exactly is this thing?
The ego mechanism?
So it's something that nobodyshould be ashamed about, because
literally everybody has.
It is a built-in defensemechanism in our brains as human
beings and it's part of thebrains need to be correct,
because correct equals safe toour brain, and so whenever
something says is contrary to us, or says that we're wrong,
anything like that, our brainautomatically throws up defenses
(03:38):
and says no, I'm right because,and so kind of the exaggerated
example of this is when you seesomebody on like social media
who is arguing beyond all reasonand won't even acknowledge that
a good point has been made bythe other side, and they're just
going no, no, no, no, no.
That's an exaggerated form ofthe ego mechanism, but we do it
every day, even in terms ofprocessing how somebody else's
(04:01):
response to something isincorrect.
That's, who are we to tell themthat it's incorrect?
That's our ego.
Saying this is different thanwhat I do do not like, because
it makes our brain feel unsafe,and so that is the ego mechanism
.
It's actually part of the fightflight or freeze response.
And it releases stress chemicals, it releases adrenaline and
sometimes incorrect amounts ofdopamine, and it creates a very
(04:22):
unhealthy body chemistry insideof you, and so it's a very
unhealthy process once you getolder, into adulthood.
Carl Richards (04:29):
This sounds like my Thanksgiving dinner table,
when there's so many differentopinions coming out and get it
wrong, and it's just the wayyou've described it.
It certainly got popped into myhead because it's and I have a
family that'll fight to thedeath, not literally but
figuratively speaking, thattheir point is the right way,
and I think every family has oneor two people in it that will
(04:52):
do that.
But I didn't realize that it'sunhealthy, that because of, as
you said it's, there's thatchemical reaction or or however
you described it, that reallycan have an adverse effect on
our health.
Katherine McCord (05:02):
But how, how and even you can get addicted to
it.
You can get it literallyaddicted to doing this.
That's where you get like theFacebook trolls and stuff like
that the ones that aren't botsanyway, it's legitimately.
People become addicted to this.
They wake up obsessed withgetting into fights.
It's actually a thing, or yourbrain also reads that as a bad
(05:23):
thing, and then you becomecompletely averse.
That's where you also seepeople become completely averse
to confrontation.
It stresses them out.
They don't like it.
Their brain is reading isincorrect, but then they just
withdraw.
So that's flight, right?
Carl Richards (05:35):
So if this can become an addiction, how deep
does this go as far as theeffect it has on our health and
well-being?
Katherine McCord (05:43):
It's very deep , oh, as far as the effect it
has on our health and well-being, it's very deep.
So releasing these stresschemicals actually does alter
your ability to digest properly.
It affects your heart.
It can actually affect yourallergy response to different
things.
It's very deep running, not tomention our mental health, right
?
I mean, if you're just stressedout all the time because so many
(06:04):
things are coming at you thatare wrong and or that you
process is wrong and or thatstress you out, it's, it's not a
healthy way of being becauseyou're constantly climbing down
the Maslow's hierarchy pyramid.
And for anybody listening thatdoesn't know Maslow's hierarchy,
it's a long standingpsychological principle and it
has five different layers ofhuman need and the bottom is
(06:27):
physiological needs that youhave safety and security.
Then it goes.
You know it goes.
It goes up from there.
Then love and belonging andself esteem and self
actualization, and you want togo up the pyramid, not down it.
But this, this response, makesyou slide down it and go back
into a more primitive state,which means that you can't work
as well.
You're going to be lessproductive at work, you're going
(06:48):
to be less productive in yourrelationships, you're not going
to be able to get that closenessand that intimacy.
So a lot of times when peopleare fighting very hard for
intimacy and just you know theyjust keep hitting walls, it's
because someone or both peoplein a relationship are stuck
further down the pyramid forwhatever reason, and this can be
one of the reasons.
So, and I love that you startedoff the podcast talking about
(07:11):
curiosity, because that'sexactly the solution to this and
how to actually break the ecomechanism, because you can't,
you can tell it no, thank you,and teach yourself to not
activate that response, butinstead to ask questions and to
respond in a healthy way.
Carl Richards (07:30):
I think that, like you say, because it's an
addiction, and humans love to dothe easier thing as opposed to
the more difficult thing.
That's why, in business, forexample, people will want to do
the easy tasks, not the hardones, and we're also resilient,
reticent to change, becausechange is hard.
So you say that this can becured or managed.
(07:52):
Is it easy, though, to manageit, or is it?
Do we fall back into those Likeeven listening to podcasts?
I'm sure there are individualswho listen to podcasts that they
know get them riled up, andit's it's it's their narcotic
that they have to listen to thatpodcast.
That gets them riled up, eventhough it's affecting them
(08:14):
deeply, and that's why I'msaying this, that's why I'm
saying podcasts, because thereare a lot of them out there.
That's all they do.
Katherine McCord (08:19):
That's what they're geared Well, actually,
it's very simple to learn tomanage this.
And here's the thing Once youlearn to manage it, you don't
need to say no Now.
It's never smart to live insomething that stresses you out
for extended periods, but youget to the point where you can
very easily come up to thesesituations and they don't stress
you out anymore.
You can decompress, absorb it,figure out your response and
then move on in a healthy way.
(08:40):
So you start by learning toidentify it.
What does that feel like?
And for me personally andeverybody kind of has their own
response the second, thatsomething hits me wrong.
You know, let's just say I do alot of dog rescue and so when
somebody tells me that they feellike Michael Vick served his
time, initial response is murder.
(09:00):
But that's not the correctresponse.
So the very first place I feelit is right here above the nape
of my neck and my nerves startto inflame and those chemicals
start to flow.
So what I did was when I startedreading about this and learning
about this, learning how toconquer it, which I did a lot of
research in, like the NationalInstitute of Health, national
(09:21):
Library of Medicine, harvard,stanford, a bunch of different
studies and things like that, tolearn and learn how to take
care of it.
So what I did was I sat down inmy desk chair and I put my
hands on the arms, or I wouldtap my foot and I alternated
these two actions.
I would just tap my foot once,very lightly, and I taught
(09:41):
myself that means I have food inthe pantry.
I can picture it.
I have a roof over my head, Ican see it.
I, you know, nobody's attackingI can look around, nobody's
attacking me, I am healthy, Ihave, you know, everything that
I need.
I have money in the bank.
So I taught my brain this.
It took me.
It took me about five minutesof getting the pattern and about
another 15 minutes of puttingit into practice and learning.
(10:04):
Okay, look at something thatstresses me out.
Do this thing, decompress.
And that was the initial run.
And then it took me anothercouple of months of practicing
it in live situations to getreally good at it.
But in just that short time whathappened was I can turn off
those stress chemicals.
I tell my brain no, thank you,we're okay, I got it, we're all
(10:25):
right.
But then the second part ofthat you still can't respond
combatively because that's goingto bring those chemicals right
back.
So instead you ask a questionand prepare to fully absorb what
is going to be said to you,even if you end up not agreeing
with it, that's okay.
You could still learn from this, you could still take from this
Something can be gained fromthis interaction.
(10:45):
And so when you go into it withthat and you go into it with
curiosity and asking questionsand going in to understand, not
to combat it completely changeshow your brain functions and it
completely actually changes thephysiological makeup of your
brain and expands it so that youhave more information to make
better decisions, and then thoseinstances where the ego
(11:06):
mechanism flare up become lessand less.
Carl Richards (11:08):
I like this.
My question is I have twoactually, but my first question
is because it is such anaddiction, remind me I want to
come back to this question piecebecause I have a question about
questions, but because this issuch an addiction, even if we're
taking the steps to control it,do we go through, or have you
(11:28):
found that people go throughwithdrawal and they feel the
need to?
I'm just going to especiallywith.
I'm just going to open myFacebook and see what's
happening on this one page, ormy Twitter, or whatever we're
calling it this week account.
So is it that do we go throughthe withdrawal?
Katherine McCord (11:46):
Yes, yeah, some people do not everybody,
not everybody, but some peopledo.
I did a little bit, not too bad, but again, I was addicted.
I like that charge, I like thatfight, right, I, my go-to is
fight, and those are usually the.
Those are usually the peoplethat you see clinging to it,
usually are the people whosego-to is fight.
(12:07):
And so I did go through that alittle bit.
But what I started realizing isthe more that I forced myself
into the curiosity response, thehealthier sort of feeling.
What happens is, when yourespond in curiosity, your body
releases oxytocin and serotonin,which are healthy, happy
chemicals that put our body in abetter state, and then you
(12:27):
become quote addicted to that,to feeling good, not bad.
So the addiction slowly shiftsto something healthy.
It's like saying I'm addictedto water Good, that's a good
addiction, that's not a badthing.
Yeah, I'm addicted to air.
I just can't get enough of it.
I can't get enough sunshine.
Well, gee, what a terribleproblem.
It's along those lines, right?
(12:49):
So it keeps you very healthy.
Now, if you're a person whooverproduces, you may need to
talk to your doctor aboutbalancing that out.
But in general, this is ahealthy, happy response and it's
something that connects youmore to the humans around you,
and that's really the remarkablething is that you start to.
For all the people out there whofeel like you don't get other
(13:11):
humans right, which is a commonthing with neurodiversity, which
just means a medically visibleor diagnosable difference in how
a person processes information.
So, like everything from likecerebral palsy over to autism
and dyslexia, over to even themental health spectrum, like
obsessive compulsive disorder orbipolar, and even for folks
like that, who feel so detachedbecause they feel so different,
(13:34):
doing this connects you to otherhumans and you're better able
to find the commonality.
You're better even when youdon't have commonality.
You're better able tounderstand them.
You're better able to processwhat is happening around you
because your brain has moreinformation.
It's not so limited, so it'snot just jumping to crazy
conclusions.
You know.
So we always say you know,don't assume.
Yeah, this is the way to stopus, I.
(13:54):
Yet this is the way to stop us.
Carl Richards (13:55):
I like it.
Katherine McCord (13:55):
I now, I now by deep, by default, do not
assume, and it's almost annoying, like because my brain then
constantly has 50 millionquestions in it, which I was
kind of born that way.
It kind of like took me back tothat childlike state, but yeah,
so what was your question aboutquestions?
Carl Richards (14:08):
my question about questions.
Yes, and thank you forclarifying that part.
By the way, I just want toquickly talk about the sunshine
addiction.
Uh, disclosure, katherine is inflorida, so of course she's
addicted to sunshine, which isnot a bad addiction to have Like
we've already said, my questionabout questions was and I don't
(14:29):
want you to give away your beststuff, but when we're in this
moment where we need to stop,take a step back and ask
questions, can you give us someexamples of what some of the
questions, yeah, like, what arethe?
Katherine McCord (14:42):
questions to say, yeah, what are the
questions, yeah, sure.
So let's say that somebody sayssomething that you disagree with
.
Like they just just theirstance on whatever is something
with which you disagree, so say,okay, can you tell me a little
bit more about that?
I would like to learn moreabout what you're saying.
And then receive it and thenkeep asking questions and it can
(15:02):
be like okay, so that, okay,can you tell them what about
this?
How does that fit into that,you know, and just start really
engaging them with the intent ofgetting to the bottom of it.
The idea here is you're justgoing to dive down the rabbit
hole, right?
You're just going to dive downthe rabbit hole, right, you're
just going to go with them, andthen what you'll see is people
start to naturally reciprocateafter a while.
If you start it, they justcan't help.
But like, all right, so this iswhat we're doing, you're
(15:24):
engaging with me, this iscomfortable, so let's start
talking about your thing.
Now it just kind of becomes apattern.
Another one is let's say thatsomeone has done something that
you read in a way thatnegatively affected you, and
this happens especially withinan intimate relationship,
whether it's your kid, yourpartner, parent, whatever.
(15:45):
Let's say somebody didsomething that just really hit
you wrong and you're like thatwas wrong, that hurt me.
Was it a wrong action, though?
Like yes, that you were hurt,but what?
What was their intent?
You're assuming, and you mayassume intent like, oh they,
they're doing that because theythink X, y, z or they're doing
that because blah, blah, blah.
You don't actually know that.
So, ask, say, hey, you did thatand it kind of hit me wrong.
(16:07):
Can you talk to me a little bit?
Or maybe I don't even like tosay it hit me wrong yet I just
say, hey, you just did that andI'm not sure that I received it
properly.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout your intent with that
action?
What were you intending?
Because sometimes what youfigure out and the same thing of
like a statement was made toyou, like somebody says
something kind of it seemssnarky to you or whatever.
(16:29):
Okay, why are you saying that?
And even if it was meant snarky, what you sometimes realize is
all the things behind that thatled up to that.
I realized at one point that Ihad been doing something
accidentally, completelyaccidentally, that was difficult
for my husband and because ofhis different diversities, and
all that made things verydifficult for him and so he
(16:49):
finally it just like he hit awall.
It was like God dang it, stopdoing this.
And that's why it came outsnarky.
Well, I didn't know I'd beencausing all that pain.
So by asking the question wewere able to heal that and move
on, and then I didn't feeloffended anymore and he did say
sorry I snapped or whatever.
But it was the point of thenunderstanding what's happening.
So then it doesn't feel like anattack.
(17:10):
So now, for instance, whenpeople get kind of sideways with
me, I don't see it.
My brain no longer reads it asan attack.
It's no longer puts me to fightor flight.
Now my body's like oh okay,tell me what's going on here.
Like my brain's default is okay, let's figure this out.
It's okay, let's talk aboutthis.
We can do this, we can workthrough it.
(17:31):
And now, the rare times that mybrain does read something as an
attack, I know something isreally wrong.
Carl Richards (17:43):
The other thing that I've noticed is and maybe
this is part of the cure orcontrol is my brain processing
it?
Not as a I need to react or beupset about this.
I need to put myself in theposition of the other person,
where they're coming from, sounderstand that they are in this
particular geographic situationor in the example that you gave
about things that might happenaround your house with those
(18:05):
that you love.
There's a disconnect because ofsomebody had a bad day that you
maybe haven't realized they'vehad a bad day, and there's
things that are just askew thatyou don't quite understand
unless you ask the rightquestions.
So yeah.
So that way you're not alwaysin that engagement mode like the
Thanksgiving dinner table,where everybody's always got to
(18:27):
engage, right, everybody's gotto engage.
Everyone's got an opinion.
Katherine McCord (18:31):
It's true and come to understand.
It's not just about givinggrace to the other person where
they are, although that is partof it.
It's also about you.
It's a selfish thing, too.
You want more information.
The more information you have,the better decisions you make,
the healthier you are andactually you're feeding the
actual need that your brain hasto be correct, because your
brain needs to understand.
So you're actually, instead ofdoing the wrong thing and just
(18:56):
letting all the frustration outright, like letting your brain
act like a toddler you'reactually giving it what it needs
and giving it the additionalinformation.
Carl Richards (19:04):
I think we could talk about this till the cows
come home, considering it's thework that you do.
But I want to make sure we saveenough time for finding out
more about your podcast, I thinkthe piece about diversity and
disability.
I think we're going to need tohave another conversation down
the line about that and do areal deep dive into that.
Katherine McCord (19:23):
If you're okay with that?
Carl Richards (19:24):
Yeah, let's do it , We'll come back because I
think that there's some value inspending time on that.
I think we spent a lot of timetalking about this and
understanding the ego mechanismand really how to how to nurture
this and not let it overtakeyou and become the addiction
that it quite often can be.
But but I want to find out moreabout your podcast.
So so tell me about your showand how long have you been
(19:47):
podcasting.
Katherine McCord (19:48):
That's 2020, and it did not start as a
podcast.
It started as a, like a virtualevent and then it worked its
way to a podcast.
So it's been oh my God, it'sbeen four years, holy crud.
It's called Career Launch Live.
We have multiple seasons.
Some of them are on Spotify,some of them are on, but all of
them are on YouTube and LinkedInand that type of thing, and it
(20:10):
is live, as the name wouldindicate, and then it kind of
will roll over to a podcast likeState.
It's a blast.
We talk, all things work,everything from understanding
payday law all the way todiversity and inclusion, to
communication, to just differentleadership aspects.
(20:30):
All the things, all the thingsare in there and it's lots of
fun and the journey for you.
Carl Richards (20:35):
How does it feel now that you're four years deep?
You know those first fewepisodes must have been and
again you said they were live.
Katherine McCord (20:42):
That still must have been a little prickly
and like, yeah, something live Igrew up in theater so it wasn't
that weird and like performingon stage, so it wasn't that
weird, but it was uh, it was adifferent medium, so that
bizarre Getting used to havingto deal with all the tech stuff.
Then the lady that originallywas helping me with the backend
stuff she got a job again, youknow, post COVID.
(21:05):
So then I didn't have her so Idid it all myself and that was a
journey, but honestly, now it'sso it's just part of my week.
Whenever I have a new seasonand I do it in seasons, because
I do have travel seasons as wellwhen I do seasons it's just
part of my week.
It's no big deal.
We have the people on.
It's very low stress and myguests have gotten to the point
where they're like this is justso comfortable.
(21:25):
It's just.
I'm just talking to you.
Carl Richards (21:35):
We're just, it's just me and Kat having a
conversation, and that's the way, in my opinion anyways, even a
business podcast should soundjust like a conversation.
It shouldn't be all formal, itshould literally, it should
sound like what we've been doingthis last I don't know 20, 25
minutes or so.
I agree, you have some valuableresources that would be of
great interest to your audience,so why don't you talk about
(21:56):
that?
Katherine McCord (21:56):
Yeah, so number one you can find all
kinds of resources on theNeuroverse website, which is
jointheneuroverseorg, andneuroverse is spelled just neuro
and verse, and there's allkinds of cool resources on there
, including about communication.
There's different coaches andall, especially if you fall into
that neurodivergent category.
(22:18):
And then also you can go to myspeaker site and you can book me
for podcasts.
You can book me for differentspeeches, different classes, all
the kind of fun things.
Learn a little bit more aboutme.
See pictures of my lifekmccordspeakingcom.
Carl Richards (22:34):
Just book Kathy, do it, I'm pretty awesome Book,
kathy, I'm pretty awesome, to behonest.
Katherine McCord (22:39):
We only have awesome people on this show.
Carl Richards (22:41):
Kathy McCord, it has been an absolute pleasure
talking with you today.
This is not the last time.
This is not the last time.
I guarantee we will be speakingagain.
And, by the way, I have tothank the lovely and talented
like he doesn't get enoughaccolade already Alex Sanfilippo
for joining us together throughhis lovely platform called
Podmatch.
I don't know if that gets meany extra bread at the dinner
(23:02):
table.
Katherine McCord (23:03):
I feel like it should.
Carl Richards (23:04):
but yay, alex the number of times I've said his
name in public and I think Ishould definitely be paid a
royalty for that, for sure.
Katherine McCord (23:12):
But anyways Same.
I have a few companies likethat.
Carl Richards (23:14):
that I'm like guys seriously, come on, if I
butter your bread anymore, Iwon't have any bread for me.
But anyway, it's a pleasurebecause I have to admit that,
catherine, you were my firstguest through the pod match
platform.
I spent so much time guestingwith pod match and now that all
the plugins work the way theyshould.
Technology is a weird thing afun thing and a weird thing when
(23:34):
it doesn't work right.
Work the way they should.
Technology is a weird thing afun thing and a weird thing when
it doesn't work right Now I'min the hosting chair as well, so
thank you for being the firstguest on Podmatch, guest on the
show, so it's been a pleasurechatting with you.
So, but before I turn you looseon the world to go either
record another podcast or helppeople figure out the ego
mechanism, what's your finalthought?
Katherine McCord (23:55):
My final thought is learn to experience
true intimacy through respondingin curiosity.
Because when you do that, whenyou engage and you break that
ego mechanism and you respond incuriosity and you actually
receive what people are tellingyou, it actually changes your
neuropathways in your brain andthe way that your brain
(24:15):
functions, actually grows andexpands.
And what could possibly be moreintimate than letting somebody
change your own mind?
So I encourage you to embracetrue intimacy, to embrace
responding and curiosity and togrow exponentially.
It will change your life and itwill change your career in all
the right ways.
Carl Richards (24:33):
That's a great place to leave it.
Katherine McCord, thank you somuch for being my guest today.
Katherine McCord (24:37):
Thank you for having me.
Carl Richards (24:39):
And thank you for joining us today.
Special thanks to our producerand production lead, Dom
Carrillo, our music guru, NathanSimon, and the person who works
the arms all of our arms,actually my trusty assistant,
Stephanie Gaffor.
If you like what you heardtoday, leave us a comment and a
review, and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
(24:59):
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes.
Linkedin and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes.
And if you're ready to take theplunge and join the over 3
(25:19):
million people who have said yesto podcasting, let's have a
conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space, because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time.
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episodeand just as we get started,
don't forget, if podcasting issomething that you are curious
about, we can satisfy yourcuriosities.
Here at Podcast Solutions MadeSimple, we have many
(00:44):
opportunities for you as a realestate professional, coach,
consultant or, hey, you knowwhat.
If you have an idea for apodcast and you're not sure if
it's going to fly, reach out tous.
We'll make sure all thatinformation is in the show notes
so you can connect with us.
So you know not only what it isthat we do, but the benefits
and effectiveness of having yourown show or even guesting on
(01:07):
other shows too, which I've hadthe opportunity to be a guest on
some amazing shows, and we'vehad some great guests on the
show.
Today is no exception.
We have another amazing guest.
We're going to talk about a lotof things, I'm sure, including
neurodiversity and breaking theego mechanism.
What is that?
Well, let's find out.
My guest today is KatherineMcCord.
(01:28):
She's the founder and presidentof the people operations
consulting firm Titan Managementand the chief people officer
for Previewed, an innovative jobboard that fires the resume.
Fires the resume.
Never heard that expressionbefore, an international speaker
which is near and dear to myheart and the founder of the
Neuroverse, a not-for-profitorganization dedicated to
(01:49):
neurodiversity.
She loves to stay busy andfurther her three missions
integrity, inclusion andinnovation and we are so blessed
she is here today because, withKatherine, it's all about
expanding humanity and I'm gladwe have a human on the show
today.
Katherine, welcome to thepodcast.
Katherine McCord (02:09):
Thank you so very much for having me.
I'm very excited to be here and, by the way I coined the phrase
fire the resume, I actuallyhave a whole speech that I give
around it.
I've done whole educationalprograms and products actually
around this concept, and so it'sjust something I firmly believe
in.
Resumes stink and they need togo away forever.
So there you go fire the resume.
Carl Richards (02:29):
It's not an expression you hear, obviously
because you coined it right.
So when I saw it, I'm like firethe.
What is that?
So, anyways, we're not going totalk about that necessarily
today, but I know we have somany things that we want to
discuss.
Oh, and, by the way, we forgotto mention that Katherine is
also a fellow podcaster.
Katherine McCord (02:45):
I am.
I have a show called CareerLaunch Live.
Carl Richards (02:52):
We'll make sure those notes for the show are in
our show notes so you can checkout her show.
But I wanted to jump into theconversation and get a little
bit more direction on thisconcept of ego mechanism.
I spent 25 years in the radiobroadcasting world a very
ego-driven business.
I know we talked about this offmic a little bit, but I've
never heard this term the egomechanism.
Katherine McCord (03:16):
So what exactly is this thing?
The ego mechanism?
So it's something that nobodyshould be ashamed about, because
literally everybody has.
It is a built-in defensemechanism in our brains as human
beings and it's part of thebrains need to be correct,
because correct equals safe toour brain, and so whenever
something says is contrary to us, or says that we're wrong,
anything like that, our brainautomatically throws up defenses
(03:38):
and says no, I'm right because,and so kind of the exaggerated
example of this is when you seesomebody on like social media
who is arguing beyond all reasonand won't even acknowledge that
a good point has been made bythe other side, and they're just
going no, no, no, no, no.
That's an exaggerated form ofthe ego mechanism, but we do it
every day, even in terms ofprocessing how somebody else's
(04:01):
response to something isincorrect.
That's, who are we to tell themthat it's incorrect?
That's our ego.
Saying this is different thanwhat I do do not like, because
it makes our brain feel unsafe,and so that is the ego mechanism
.
It's actually part of the fightflight or freeze response.
And it releases stress chemicals, it releases adrenaline and
sometimes incorrect amounts ofdopamine, and it creates a very
(04:22):
unhealthy body chemistry insideof you, and so it's a very
unhealthy process once you getolder, into adulthood.
Carl Richards (04:29):
This sounds like my Thanksgiving dinner table,
when there's so many differentopinions coming out and get it
wrong, and it's just the wayyou've described it.
It certainly got popped into myhead because it's and I have a
family that'll fight to thedeath, not literally but
figuratively speaking, thattheir point is the right way,
and I think every family has oneor two people in it that will
(04:52):
do that.
But I didn't realize that it'sunhealthy, that because of, as
you said it's, there's thatchemical reaction or or however
you described it, that reallycan have an adverse effect on
our health.
Katherine McCord (05:02):
But how, how and even you can get addicted to
it.
You can get it literallyaddicted to doing this.
That's where you get like theFacebook trolls and stuff like
that the ones that aren't botsanyway, it's legitimately.
People become addicted to this.
They wake up obsessed withgetting into fights.
It's actually a thing, or yourbrain also reads that as a bad
(05:23):
thing, and then you becomecompletely averse.
That's where you also seepeople become completely averse
to confrontation.
It stresses them out.
They don't like it.
Their brain is reading isincorrect, but then they just
withdraw.
So that's flight, right?
Carl Richards (05:35):
So if this can become an addiction, how deep
does this go as far as theeffect it has on our health and
well-being?
Katherine McCord (05:43):
It's very deep , oh, as far as the effect it
has on our health and well-being, it's very deep.
So releasing these stresschemicals actually does alter
your ability to digest properly.
It affects your heart.
It can actually affect yourallergy response to different
things.
It's very deep running, not tomention our mental health, right
?
I mean, if you're just stressedout all the time because so many
(06:04):
things are coming at you thatare wrong and or that you
process is wrong and or thatstress you out, it's, it's not a
healthy way of being becauseyou're constantly climbing down
the Maslow's hierarchy pyramid.
And for anybody listening thatdoesn't know Maslow's hierarchy,
it's a long standingpsychological principle and it
has five different layers ofhuman need and the bottom is
(06:27):
physiological needs that youhave safety and security.
Then it goes.
You know it goes.
It goes up from there.
Then love and belonging andself esteem and self
actualization, and you want togo up the pyramid, not down it.
But this, this response, makesyou slide down it and go back
into a more primitive state,which means that you can't work
as well.
You're going to be lessproductive at work, you're going
(06:48):
to be less productive in yourrelationships, you're not going
to be able to get that closenessand that intimacy.
So a lot of times when peopleare fighting very hard for
intimacy and just you know theyjust keep hitting walls, it's
because someone or both peoplein a relationship are stuck
further down the pyramid forwhatever reason, and this can be
one of the reasons.
So, and I love that you startedoff the podcast talking about
(07:11):
curiosity, because that'sexactly the solution to this and
how to actually break the ecomechanism, because you can't,
you can tell it no, thank you,and teach yourself to not
activate that response, butinstead to ask questions and to
respond in a healthy way.
Carl Richards (07:30):
I think that, like you say, because it's an
addiction, and humans love to dothe easier thing as opposed to
the more difficult thing.
That's why, in business, forexample, people will want to do
the easy tasks, not the hardones, and we're also resilient,
reticent to change, becausechange is hard.
So you say that this can becured or managed.
(07:52):
Is it easy, though, to manageit, or is it?
Do we fall back into those Likeeven listening to podcasts?
I'm sure there are individualswho listen to podcasts that they
know get them riled up, andit's it's it's their narcotic
that they have to listen to thatpodcast.
That gets them riled up, eventhough it's affecting them
(08:14):
deeply, and that's why I'msaying this, that's why I'm
saying podcasts, because thereare a lot of them out there.
That's all they do.
Katherine McCord (08:19):
That's what they're geared Well, actually,
it's very simple to learn tomanage this.
And here's the thing Once youlearn to manage it, you don't
need to say no Now.
It's never smart to live insomething that stresses you out
for extended periods, but youget to the point where you can
very easily come up to thesesituations and they don't stress
you out anymore.
You can decompress, absorb it,figure out your response and
then move on in a healthy way.
(08:40):
So you start by learning toidentify it.
What does that feel like?
And for me personally andeverybody kind of has their own
response the second, thatsomething hits me wrong.
You know, let's just say I do alot of dog rescue and so when
somebody tells me that they feellike Michael Vick served his
time, initial response is murder.
(09:00):
But that's not the correctresponse.
So the very first place I feelit is right here above the nape
of my neck and my nerves startto inflame and those chemicals
start to flow.
So what I did was when I startedreading about this and learning
about this, learning how toconquer it, which I did a lot of
research in, like the NationalInstitute of Health, national
(09:21):
Library of Medicine, harvard,stanford, a bunch of different
studies and things like that, tolearn and learn how to take
care of it.
So what I did was I sat down inmy desk chair and I put my
hands on the arms, or I wouldtap my foot and I alternated
these two actions.
I would just tap my foot once,very lightly, and I taught
(09:41):
myself that means I have food inthe pantry.
I can picture it.
I have a roof over my head, Ican see it.
I, you know, nobody's attackingI can look around, nobody's
attacking me, I am healthy, Ihave, you know, everything that
I need.
I have money in the bank.
So I taught my brain this.
It took me.
It took me about five minutesof getting the pattern and about
another 15 minutes of puttingit into practice and learning.
(10:04):
Okay, look at something thatstresses me out.
Do this thing, decompress.
And that was the initial run.
And then it took me anothercouple of months of practicing
it in live situations to getreally good at it.
But in just that short time whathappened was I can turn off
those stress chemicals.
I tell my brain no, thank you,we're okay, I got it, we're all
(10:25):
right.
But then the second part ofthat you still can't respond
combatively because that's goingto bring those chemicals right
back.
So instead you ask a questionand prepare to fully absorb what
is going to be said to you,even if you end up not agreeing
with it, that's okay.
You could still learn from this, you could still take from this
Something can be gained fromthis interaction.
(10:45):
And so when you go into it withthat and you go into it with
curiosity and asking questionsand going in to understand, not
to combat it completely changeshow your brain functions and it
completely actually changes thephysiological makeup of your
brain and expands it so that youhave more information to make
better decisions, and then thoseinstances where the ego
(11:06):
mechanism flare up become lessand less.
Carl Richards (11:08):
I like this.
My question is I have twoactually, but my first question
is because it is such anaddiction, remind me I want to
come back to this question piecebecause I have a question about
questions, but because this issuch an addiction, even if we're
taking the steps to control it,do we go through, or have you
(11:28):
found that people go throughwithdrawal and they feel the
need to?
I'm just going to especiallywith.
I'm just going to open myFacebook and see what's
happening on this one page, ormy Twitter, or whatever we're
calling it this week account.
So is it that do we go throughthe withdrawal?
Katherine McCord (11:46):
Yes, yeah, some people do not everybody,
not everybody, but some peopledo.
I did a little bit, not too bad, but again, I was addicted.
I like that charge, I like thatfight, right, I, my go-to is
fight, and those are usually the.
Those are usually the peoplethat you see clinging to it,
usually are the people whosego-to is fight.
(12:07):
And so I did go through that alittle bit.
But what I started realizing isthe more that I forced myself
into the curiosity response, thehealthier sort of feeling.
What happens is, when yourespond in curiosity, your body
releases oxytocin and serotonin,which are healthy, happy
chemicals that put our body in abetter state, and then you
(12:27):
become quote addicted to that,to feeling good, not bad.
So the addiction slowly shiftsto something healthy.
It's like saying I'm addictedto water Good, that's a good
addiction, that's not a badthing.
Yeah, I'm addicted to air.
I just can't get enough of it.
I can't get enough sunshine.
Well, gee, what a terribleproblem.
It's along those lines, right?
(12:49):
So it keeps you very healthy.
Now, if you're a person whooverproduces, you may need to
talk to your doctor aboutbalancing that out.
But in general, this is ahealthy, happy response and it's
something that connects youmore to the humans around you,
and that's really the remarkablething is that you start to.
For all the people out there whofeel like you don't get other
(13:11):
humans right, which is a commonthing with neurodiversity, which
just means a medically visibleor diagnosable difference in how
a person processes information.
So, like everything from likecerebral palsy over to autism
and dyslexia, over to even themental health spectrum, like
obsessive compulsive disorder orbipolar, and even for folks
like that, who feel so detachedbecause they feel so different,
(13:34):
doing this connects you to otherhumans and you're better able
to find the commonality.
You're better even when youdon't have commonality.
You're better able tounderstand them.
You're better able to processwhat is happening around you
because your brain has moreinformation.
It's not so limited, so it'snot just jumping to crazy
conclusions.
You know.
So we always say you know,don't assume.
Yeah, this is the way to stopus, I.
(13:54):
Yet this is the way to stop us.
Carl Richards (13:55):
I like it.
Katherine McCord (13:55):
I now, I now by deep, by default, do not
assume, and it's almost annoying, like because my brain then
constantly has 50 millionquestions in it, which I was
kind of born that way.
It kind of like took me back tothat childlike state, but yeah,
so what was your question aboutquestions?
Carl Richards (14:08):
my question about questions.
Yes, and thank you forclarifying that part.
By the way, I just want toquickly talk about the sunshine
addiction.
Uh, disclosure, katherine is inflorida, so of course she's
addicted to sunshine, which isnot a bad addiction to have Like
we've already said, my questionabout questions was and I don't
(14:29):
want you to give away your beststuff, but when we're in this
moment where we need to stop,take a step back and ask
questions, can you give us someexamples of what some of the
questions, yeah, like, what arethe?
Katherine McCord (14:42):
questions to say, yeah, what are the
questions, yeah, sure.
So let's say that somebody sayssomething that you disagree with
.
Like they just just theirstance on whatever is something
with which you disagree, so say,okay, can you tell me a little
bit more about that?
I would like to learn moreabout what you're saying.
And then receive it and thenkeep asking questions and it can
(15:02):
be like okay, so that, okay,can you tell them what about
this?
How does that fit into that,you know, and just start really
engaging them with the intent ofgetting to the bottom of it.
The idea here is you're justgoing to dive down the rabbit
hole, right?
You're just going to dive downthe rabbit hole, right, you're
just going to go with them, andthen what you'll see is people
start to naturally reciprocateafter a while.
If you start it, they justcan't help.
But like, all right, so this iswhat we're doing, you're
(15:24):
engaging with me, this iscomfortable, so let's start
talking about your thing.
Now it just kind of becomes apattern.
Another one is let's say thatsomeone has done something that
you read in a way thatnegatively affected you, and
this happens especially withinan intimate relationship,
whether it's your kid, yourpartner, parent, whatever.
(15:45):
Let's say somebody didsomething that just really hit
you wrong and you're like thatwas wrong, that hurt me.
Was it a wrong action, though?
Like yes, that you were hurt,but what?
What was their intent?
You're assuming, and you mayassume intent like, oh they,
they're doing that because theythink X, y, z or they're doing
that because blah, blah, blah.
You don't actually know that.
So, ask, say, hey, you did thatand it kind of hit me wrong.
(16:07):
Can you talk to me a little bit?
Or maybe I don't even like tosay it hit me wrong yet I just
say, hey, you just did that andI'm not sure that I received it
properly.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout your intent with that
action?
What were you intending?
Because sometimes what youfigure out and the same thing of
like a statement was made toyou, like somebody says
something kind of it seemssnarky to you or whatever.
(16:29):
Okay, why are you saying that?
And even if it was meant snarky, what you sometimes realize is
all the things behind that thatled up to that.
I realized at one point that Ihad been doing something
accidentally, completelyaccidentally, that was difficult
for my husband and because ofhis different diversities, and
all that made things verydifficult for him and so he
(16:49):
finally it just like he hit awall.
It was like God dang it, stopdoing this.
And that's why it came outsnarky.
Well, I didn't know I'd beencausing all that pain.
So by asking the question wewere able to heal that and move
on, and then I didn't feeloffended anymore and he did say
sorry I snapped or whatever.
But it was the point of thenunderstanding what's happening.
So then it doesn't feel like anattack.
(17:10):
So now, for instance, whenpeople get kind of sideways with
me, I don't see it.
My brain no longer reads it asan attack.
It's no longer puts me to fightor flight.
Now my body's like oh okay,tell me what's going on here.
Like my brain's default is okay, let's figure this out.
It's okay, let's talk aboutthis.
We can do this, we can workthrough it.
(17:31):
And now, the rare times that mybrain does read something as an
attack, I know something isreally wrong.
Carl Richards (17:43):
The other thing that I've noticed is and maybe
this is part of the cure orcontrol is my brain processing
it?
Not as a I need to react or beupset about this.
I need to put myself in theposition of the other person,
where they're coming from, sounderstand that they are in this
particular geographic situationor in the example that you gave
about things that might happenaround your house with those
(18:05):
that you love.
There's a disconnect because ofsomebody had a bad day that you
maybe haven't realized they'vehad a bad day, and there's
things that are just askew thatyou don't quite understand
unless you ask the rightquestions.
So yeah.
So that way you're not alwaysin that engagement mode like the
Thanksgiving dinner table,where everybody's always got to
(18:27):
engage, right, everybody's gotto engage.
Everyone's got an opinion.
Katherine McCord (18:31):
It's true and come to understand.
It's not just about givinggrace to the other person where
they are, although that is partof it.
It's also about you.
It's a selfish thing, too.
You want more information.
The more information you have,the better decisions you make,
the healthier you are andactually you're feeding the
actual need that your brain hasto be correct, because your
brain needs to understand.
So you're actually, instead ofdoing the wrong thing and just
(18:56):
letting all the frustration outright, like letting your brain
act like a toddler you'reactually giving it what it needs
and giving it the additionalinformation.
Carl Richards (19:04):
I think we could talk about this till the cows
come home, considering it's thework that you do.
But I want to make sure we saveenough time for finding out
more about your podcast, I thinkthe piece about diversity and
disability.
I think we're going to need tohave another conversation down
the line about that and do areal deep dive into that.
Katherine McCord (19:23):
If you're okay with that?
Carl Richards (19:24):
Yeah, let's do it , We'll come back because I
think that there's some value inspending time on that.
I think we spent a lot of timetalking about this and
understanding the ego mechanismand really how to how to nurture
this and not let it overtakeyou and become the addiction
that it quite often can be.
But but I want to find out moreabout your podcast.
So so tell me about your showand how long have you been
(19:47):
podcasting.
Katherine McCord (19:48):
That's 2020, and it did not start as a
podcast.
It started as a, like a virtualevent and then it worked its
way to a podcast.
So it's been oh my God, it'sbeen four years, holy crud.
It's called Career Launch Live.
We have multiple seasons.
Some of them are on Spotify,some of them are on, but all of
them are on YouTube and LinkedInand that type of thing, and it
(20:10):
is live, as the name wouldindicate, and then it kind of
will roll over to a podcast likeState.
It's a blast.
We talk, all things work,everything from understanding
payday law all the way todiversity and inclusion, to
communication, to just differentleadership aspects.
(20:30):
All the things, all the thingsare in there and it's lots of
fun and the journey for you.
Carl Richards (20:35):
How does it feel now that you're four years deep?
You know those first fewepisodes must have been and
again you said they were live.
Katherine McCord (20:42):
That still must have been a little prickly
and like, yeah, something live Igrew up in theater so it wasn't
that weird and like performingon stage, so it wasn't that
weird, but it was uh, it was adifferent medium, so that
bizarre Getting used to havingto deal with all the tech stuff.
Then the lady that originallywas helping me with the backend
stuff she got a job again, youknow, post COVID.
(21:05):
So then I didn't have her so Idid it all myself and that was a
journey, but honestly, now it'sso it's just part of my week.
Whenever I have a new seasonand I do it in seasons, because
I do have travel seasons as wellwhen I do seasons it's just
part of my week.
It's no big deal.
We have the people on.
It's very low stress and myguests have gotten to the point
where they're like this is justso comfortable.
(21:25):
It's just.
I'm just talking to you.
Carl Richards (21:35):
We're just, it's just me and Kat having a
conversation, and that's the way, in my opinion anyways, even a
business podcast should soundjust like a conversation.
It shouldn't be all formal, itshould literally, it should
sound like what we've been doingthis last I don't know 20, 25
minutes or so.
I agree, you have some valuableresources that would be of
great interest to your audience,so why don't you talk about
(21:56):
that?
Katherine McCord (21:56):
Yeah, so number one you can find all
kinds of resources on theNeuroverse website, which is
jointheneuroverseorg, andneuroverse is spelled just neuro
and verse, and there's allkinds of cool resources on there
, including about communication.
There's different coaches andall, especially if you fall into
that neurodivergent category.
(22:18):
And then also you can go to myspeaker site and you can book me
for podcasts.
You can book me for differentspeeches, different classes, all
the kind of fun things.
Learn a little bit more aboutme.
See pictures of my lifekmccordspeakingcom.
Carl Richards (22:34):
Just book Kathy, do it, I'm pretty awesome Book,
kathy, I'm pretty awesome, to behonest.
Katherine McCord (22:39):
We only have awesome people on this show.
Carl Richards (22:41):
Kathy McCord, it has been an absolute pleasure
talking with you today.
This is not the last time.
This is not the last time.
I guarantee we will be speakingagain.
And, by the way, I have tothank the lovely and talented
like he doesn't get enoughaccolade already Alex Sanfilippo
for joining us together throughhis lovely platform called
Podmatch.
I don't know if that gets meany extra bread at the dinner
(23:02):
table.
Katherine McCord (23:03):
I feel like it should.
Carl Richards (23:04):
but yay, alex the number of times I've said his
name in public and I think Ishould definitely be paid a
royalty for that, for sure.
Katherine McCord (23:12):
But anyways Same.
I have a few companies likethat.
Carl Richards (23:14):
that I'm like guys seriously, come on, if I
butter your bread anymore, Iwon't have any bread for me.
But anyway, it's a pleasurebecause I have to admit that,
catherine, you were my firstguest through the pod match
platform.
I spent so much time guestingwith pod match and now that all
the plugins work the way theyshould.
Technology is a weird thing afun thing and a weird thing when
(23:34):
it doesn't work right.
Work the way they should.
Technology is a weird thing afun thing and a weird thing when
it doesn't work right Now I'min the hosting chair as well, so
thank you for being the firstguest on Podmatch, guest on the
show, so it's been a pleasurechatting with you.
So, but before I turn you looseon the world to go either
record another podcast or helppeople figure out the ego
mechanism, what's your finalthought?
Katherine McCord (23:55):
My final thought is learn to experience
true intimacy through respondingin curiosity.
Because when you do that, whenyou engage and you break that
ego mechanism and you respond incuriosity and you actually
receive what people are tellingyou, it actually changes your
neuropathways in your brain andthe way that your brain
(24:15):
functions, actually grows andexpands.
And what could possibly be moreintimate than letting somebody
change your own mind?
So I encourage you to embracetrue intimacy, to embrace
responding and curiosity and togrow exponentially.
It will change your life and itwill change your career in all
the right ways.
Carl Richards (24:33):
That's a great place to leave it.
Katherine McCord, thank you somuch for being my guest today.
Katherine McCord (24:37):
Thank you for having me.
Carl Richards (24:39):
And thank you for joining us today.
Special thanks to our producerand production lead, Dom
Carrillo, our music guru, NathanSimon, and the person who works
the arms all of our arms,actually my trusty assistant,
Stephanie Gaffor.
If you like what you heardtoday, leave us a comment and a
review, and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
(24:59):
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes.
Linkedin and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes.
And if you're ready to take theplunge and join the over 3
(25:19):
million people who have said yesto podcasting, let's have a
conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space, because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time.
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