October 24, 2024 • 36 mins
Ever wondered how guesting on podcasts can reshape your personal brand? Join us as we sit down with the remarkable Mark Herschberg, author of "The Career Toolkit: Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You" and the visionary behind the Brain Bump app. Inspired by the legendary Dori Clark, Mark set out with an ambitious target to appear on 150 podcasts and ended up surpassing 400! Discover the art of being a guest, where the spotlight isn't on selling but on impactful storytelling and reaching diverse audiences with genuine insights.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into the power of podcasts as trust-building tools. We tackle the nuances of audio quality and staying sharp in conversations while offering real value to listeners. By sharing knowledge freely, Mark illustrates how you can build an authentic brand without the sales pitch. We reveal the parallels between personalized fitness coaching and podcasting, demonstrating how understanding your audience's needs can lead to more engaging, resonant content.
Get ready to enhance your podcasting journey with some of the best practices shared in this episode. Whether you're a host or guest, we cover essential strategies to captivate and maintain your audience's attention. Discover how to tailor your content to fit your audience's demographics and interests, ensuring each episode leaves a lasting impression. From preparation tips for hosts to the art of concise storytelling for guests, this episode is packed with insights to refine your approach and keep your listeners coming back for more.
Connect with Mark:
Website:
thecareertoolkitbook.com
Check out the Brain Bump App:
https://brainbumpapp.com/
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hershey/
Got a question about something you heard today? Have a great suggestion for a topic or know someone who should be a guest? Reach out to us:
askcarl@carlspeaks.ca
If you're ready to take the plunge and join the over 3 million people who have joined the podcast space, we'd love to hear your idea and help you get started! Book your Podcast Strategy Session today:
https://podcastsolutionsmadesimple.com/get-started/
Never miss an episode! Subscribe wherever you get your podcast by clicking here:
https://communicationconnectioncommunity.buzzsprout.com
Follow us on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/podcast-solutions-made-simple
Follow us on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/podcastsolutionsmadesimple/
Follow us on Facebook:
www.facebook.com/groups/podcastlaunchmadesimple
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/carlrichards72
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:04):
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episode,and my guest today i.
He's the author of the CareerToolkit Essential Skills for
Success that no One Taught youand creator of the Brain Bump
(00:47):
app not Brain Dump app the BrainBump app From tracking
criminals and terrorists on thedark web to creating
marketplaces and newauthentication systems.
Mark has spent his careerlaunching and developing new
ventures at startups and Fortune500s and in academia, with over
a dozen patents to his name.
He helped to start theUndergraduate Practice
(01:09):
Opportunities Program, dubbedMIT's Career Success Accelerator
, where he teaches annually AtMIT.
He received a BS in physics, aBS in electrical engineering and
computer science and a master'sin electrical engineering and
computer science, focusing oncryptography.
He's also spent the last threeyears guesting on podcasts,
(01:31):
where he has guested on over 400podcasts.
We're going to have a fantasticconversation about a number of
different things, mark.
Welcome to the podcast, thanksfor having me on.
Mark Herschberg (01:41):
It's my pleasure to be here.
Carl Richards (01:43):
Let's do a deep dive into the podcasting space.
I mean, you have a lot ofaccolades to the work that
you've done and thank you somuch for all of the work that
you've done over the years, butthis 400 podcasts in three years
thing has really got meintrigued.
So what led you to podcastingto begin with?
Mark Herschberg (02:00):
When I was working on my book which was not
intended as a book, but thenone day I realized this is
becoming a book I called up myfriend, Dori Clark.
I said Dori, I think I'm doinga book.
Can you help me?
And she was kind enough to sitdown with me give me some advice
.
Dori is a award-winningbusiness book author very
successful and she said for mynext book, I'm going to go on
(02:24):
150 podcasts to promote it.
I thought, okay, well, ifthat's what Dory's doing, that's
what I should be doing, and Iset out to go on 150 podcasts
Once I figured out how to findand get on podcasts efficiently.
At that point the flywheel wasgoing and I just kept on going
because I wanted to I'm anoverachiever, but also because
(02:44):
it's a lot of fun and so I'vebeen on 400 to date.
We're recording this in June of2024, but I expect to keep
going and appearing on just anypodcast that really wants to
have me.
Carl Richards (02:56):
Phenomenal, phenomenal journey.
As you get into the space, alot of people, when they're
getting in, they'll use theguesting experience as a
springboard into hosting theirown show.
You don't have your own show.
You've been on 400 other shows,or 400 plus guest appearances.
Why don't you have your own?
Mark Herschberg (03:12):
show?
It's a question I get askedoften.
It's important to understandwhat your goals are.
Now, I'm probably a littledifferent than most podcast
guests in that I really don'tsell much.
So a little context tounderstand why I don't have a
show.
There is Mark Hirshberg who doestech, startup companies and
that's how I make my money.
(03:33):
There's Mark Hirshberg who hasa book called the Career Toolkit
, but let me tell you, no onemakes money selling books Maybe
Stephen King, a few others, butthe standard business book
author.
That's not how you make money.
Most people who do that makemoney because they're also a
coach or a consultant, but Idon't sell any services around
(03:54):
that.
I'm not trying to be yourexecutive coach, so I've got
nothing to upsell.
I do some paid corporatespeaking, but you don't really
sell that through your ownpodcast.
And then there's MarkHirschberg who has Brain Bump,
which is a free app I give away.
It's free for everyone, sothere's no money there.
So my goal is sharinginformation, which I can do by
(04:17):
casting a wider net, by going ondifferent shows and hanging
different audiences.
There's maybe a little bit ofselling hey, buy my book or
download the app but that's aone-off thing and so you can
learn enough in one show todecide if you want to go further
.
Hosting my own show.
There's nothing to upsell.
Where hosting makes sense is Iwant you to buy my $5,000,
(04:38):
$10,000 coaching package.
So now I'm going to go to othershows to get you to come to me
and then build up that trustshow after show.
But that's not my goal, so Idon't need a show for it.
Carl Richards (04:49):
It's a really good answer because, again, you
would expect that, after 400plus guest appearances, that you
would be ready to do your ownshow.
But, as you've just explained,it just it doesn't make sense,
it's not a fit.
And why would you do it ifyou're not going to be able to,
like you say, to create thatfunnel or that customer
experience or that journey toallow people to follow you not
(05:11):
just to follow, but to find outmore and really get into your
community, which is a place that, I believe, is where podcasting
is going?
I'm sure we'll talk about thata little bit, but you said
something very interesting aboutthat.
There's the podcasters saidsomething very interesting about
you know that.
There's the podcasters, whotheir coaches, their consultants
.
They have that offering thatthey're going to utilize, and
(05:33):
your experience has been workingwith not only guests but hosts
and making sure that they'regiving the best experiences to
their audiences.
So let's shift into that alittle bit, because I think that
there are a lot of benefits tohaving a podcast or being a
guest on podcasts, but somepodcasters actually probably a
large percentage of them, forwhatever reason, they're missing
(05:55):
the mark.
And why is it they're missingthe mark?
Mark Herschberg (05:58):
And they just haven't had any training.
They said, well, I've heardsome podcasts, so I think I'll
start my own.
And that's like saying, well,I've seen other people drive, so
I'm 16, now Let me just startthe car.
I know what the steering wheeldoes and there's a gas pedal and
I think there's some otherthing in there.
But of course, when you watch a16-year-old drive, it's very
stilted because they just don'thave the experience, and that's
(06:21):
why we give them driving lessons, that's why we have a
provisional license wherethey're being supervised.
But podcasting, it's the samething.
Well, okay, there's amicrophone, I hit the record
button, isn't that it?
That's the only thing I see.
And so I think, just throughservices like yours, through
podcasting communities, throughtalking to others, we can start
(06:41):
to learn.
It's not just press the gas andturn the wheel to others.
We can start to learn.
It's not just press the gas andturn the wheel.
Carl Richards (06:47):
There's a little more subtlety to it.
Yeah, it's like saying I'vewatched NASCAR on TV.
Looks like you just get behindthe wheel and drive in a circle
a few times and the goal is tobe in front all the time.
That might be a simplifiedversion of it, but you're right
and I find that that trainingpiece is crucial, and having a
(07:08):
goal, having a vision or a planfor where you're going to take
this thing, and I think that'sone of the challenges in the
podcasting space.
It's why we have, I think, sucha lot of shows end up in
podcatory, shall we say, becausepeople start their show,
they're all excited, they'veheard podcasts, they go I'm
going to do that.
And they do a few shows and gooh, this is harder than I
(07:28):
thought it would be.
Or they want to be theovernight success.
They listen to a big show, likea Joe Rogan show, and go hey,
if he can do it, I can do it,not realizing that there's a
formula or there's a system orthere's a way to make it
successful for yourself.
But it doesn't just happen bychance.
Mark Herschberg (07:44):
They also don't see what's off camera.
So, just like, if you're adriver, you do have to maintain
your car, you have to change theoil and fix a flat tire from
time to time.
So too, we see pod fade happenso often because people say,
well, I hit record, I got theshow done, maybe they did
editing, they have that conceptand then I just upload it.
(08:05):
Why don't I have a millionpeople listening?
Because you have to work at it.
And that's the part peopledon't see.
They don't see all the effortyou're doing to gain listeners,
to build the brand, to market it.
And that's where people getvery frustrated that it's not
the overnight success that theythought it could be.
Carl Richards (08:23):
The other piece of that equation, too, is
there's this emphasis now it'sprobably been going on for quite
a bit, but we're seeing it moreand more this emphasis on
quality and I've been harping onthis since day one where good
enough is good enough if youknow what the standard or what
the metric is, but if you don'tknow, you can't just wipe your
(08:46):
hands clean of it and say, well,that's good enough, without
editing, without taking outhiccups and coughs and big
gaffes or gaps even in themiddle that really deflect from
your messaging, Because, as muchas we'd like to think that
people aren't judging us, theyare.
They're very much judging thequality of not just the content
but also the production value,and I've heard on more than one
(09:10):
occasion you probably have too,Mark that oh my goodness, I
can't believe these guys orthese people are just rambling
and not really saying anything.
There's nothing of value, andsometimes they're not
articulating exactly whatthey're not hearing.
They're saying this show, theshow sucks, or I can't stand
listening to those folks.
How are you helping people,though, in that space?
Mark Herschberg (09:30):
Now I'll mention, as we're going through
this advice.
I wrote up a series of 10articles called Podcast Alchemy
and so on my Cognosco Mediawebsite and we'll give you those
links.
In the show notes you can findthese articles and read through
them.
I've seen all sorts of problemsfrom poor audio.
It sounds great when recordingand then I'll hear the playback.
It sounds like I'm calling inon a telephone and that's just
(09:53):
distracting.
Rarely do you have peoplesaying, oh, I love the quality
of that audio.
You have a few audiophilesdoing it.
It only detracts when you getit wrong, but it's very
noticeable when it's wrong.
Sometimes we have people rambletoo long, both hosts and guests.
Now a lot of people like theauthenticity of podcasts.
They like it's a conversation.
(10:13):
We're not just focused.
This isn't a college lecture,but I've seen shows where
they'll spend 10 minutes talkingabout mutual friends or other
background and the listener isjust thinking I could deal with
a minute or two.
It warms me up into theconversation but I'm getting
bored.
I don't need to hear about yourvacation last month and what
was like bringing your kidsversus the other person's kids.
(10:34):
So keeping a reasonable amountof diversion but mostly staying
focused.
And then one of my biggest petpeeves with guests is where
guests say I've got six secretson how to create a great website
, but you have to buy my book inorder to get, or you have to
download my whatever you knowwhat.
They're not secrets.
I can tell you in my book.
(10:56):
I think I have good advice.
But I'm not saying this is theonly place to get that advice.
A good deal of it you can getmany other places.
I just say it in a certain way.
That's maybe better or worse.
And so I had the philosophygoing on these shows where I
would talk about the book Ask meanything, I will give you.
Here is the advice, here is thetakeaway.
I give it away all for free inother sources because it's about
(11:18):
, I think, first helping theaudience.
That's what we are here to do,first and foremost.
But even if you do havesomething to sell, again, you're
not making money from your book.
You're building the brand trust.
So give away those free samplesbecause people aren't going for
, oh, the six secrets, I have itNow, I'm done.
They're going for what'sunderneath that, getting the
(11:41):
bigger picture that they get inyour book, your class, your
lecture, whatever it is you'retrying to promote.
Carl Richards (11:46):
Building the brand trust, but also building
that relationship.
So people have developed enoughof a know, like and trust
factor so that they will, at theappropriate time, take the next
step or take that big step andstart working with you or tap
into one of your programs, anevent or something that you're
offering from the show.
And I like how it's funny howyou mentioned the giving away
(12:09):
things for free.
I've heard a couple of coachessay I don't give away anything
for free.
I'll give away some tips maybe,but then they'll to your point.
They'll say but you have to buythe book to get the rest of it.
The other side of that is theygive away everything for free
but what they don't get this is,I think, where some podcasters
also trip up is.
(12:30):
My first podcast was aboutspeaker training and coaching
and I would give everything awayfor free.
But what the audience never gotfor free was me.
They never got me as a coach.
They got the tips, they got thetricks, they got the, even the
techniques, but you don't learnunless you do tap into those
services.
So this whole idea of holdingsomething, holding your IP close
to your chest and saying youcan't have it unless you pay for
(12:53):
it, I think iscounterproductive to what we
should be doing.
Because you're right, it's outthere somewhere, if not in your
Rolodex of services.
Somebody else has somethingthat is similar and they're
willing to give it for free.
Mark Herschberg (13:04):
I'd like you to fitness training If you want to
lose weight, get in shape,learn how to use some piece of
equipment.
You can absolutely find thatfor free on the internet.
There is a video for everythinghow to do this type of exercise
, how you should think aboutyour nutrition, is 100% free.
But then why are people payingfor fitness coaching?
(13:25):
It's because you want to getpersonalized.
You want to get the most out ofyour time investment, and
that's where you do need whetherit's one-on-one coaching or
small group coaching.
That's where you're gettingthat extra return.
Now, if you're just trying todrop five pounds, okay, go look
for advice on the internet andgo follow some best practices,
(13:45):
you're fine.
But when you're really tryingto take that extra step, make a
bigger change, have a biggerimpact, that's where you need
that personalized input.
Carl Richards (13:55):
The personalized service for sure does make a
huge difference.
And yeah, you're right, there'sa lot of things you can figure
out on your own.
But that's why, when you can'tfigure it out on your own or you
don't have the video, or toyour point about the coaching, I
know that if I just keep losingfive pounds you know a pound a
week or whatever it is I'lleventually, with proper diet and
sleep and all of that stuff,I'll be good, I'll lose a few
(14:17):
more pounds and I'll look great.
That doesn't mean I'vestrengthened muscle mass, which
a personal trainer can help mefigure out what muscle group to
work on, how often to work on it, all of those things.
So I'm glad that we'vesolidified that.
I did look back up a little bittoo about something you
mentioned which is one of mybiggest pet peeves as well, and
it's when the conversation goesoff into a completely different
(14:39):
direction or becomes toopersonalized that the audience
ends up being in the background.
And when the audience goes waita minute, they're not talking
to me, like you should always betalking to your audience.
So you know, mark and I arehaving this phenomenal
conversation.
We're talking to you and I hopethat you're getting some great
tips and techniques from this.
Mark and I are sharing ourexperiences.
(15:00):
We're not having sidebarconversations about you know
how's your favorite baseballteam doing?
Like it's not relevant One ofthe best examples I can think of
and maybe you have one too thatyou'd like to share, or some
other insights on this.
I remember doing a podcast auditfor a podcaster who wanted to
elevate the show, wasn't surehow to do it, couldn't figure
out why they weren't gettingtraction from the show, and I
(15:23):
listened to a bunch of episodesand one episode specifically was
talking about how okay, we gotto get this episode done in a
hurry because the World Cup ofSoccer is on, so we're going to
quickly talk to my guest.
And there was so muchdeflection from the guests it's
almost like the guest wasn'tthere because I got to talk to
this guest because we'rerecording an episode, but I got
to also do this quickly so I canget to the World Cup of Soccer
(15:46):
that it was so much of a turnoff.
And I remember putting that inthe evaluation, in the audit,
and I didn't get any pushbackfrom it.
But I remember thinking ifthat's how you're addressing
your audience, if that's howyou're showing up, you're not
going to have an audience forvery long.
Mark Herschberg (16:03):
It sounds like the audience and doing the show
was a burden.
In that case, yeah, first andforemost.
Guests and hosts both need toremember we are here for the
audience.
It's not about selling, it'snot about promotion.
It's about creating goodaudience value.
That value, then you build thebrand, trust and people are open
.
If your goal is to sellsomething, a simple thing both
(16:26):
parties should be doing is,before the recording starts,
being clear on who the audienceis.
If you are a host, I recommendin the emails you send out ahead
of time to the guest you saythis is my audience.
And guess, if you do not getthat before you hit record, ask
the host what can you tell meabout your audience?
(16:47):
Now, I know that many servicesdon't have a lot of information.
They might just say here arethe countries, here's the age
range, gender breakdown, and ifthat's all you have, that's okay
.
But even then say but here is myarchetype, here's who I'm
thinking about as the host,here's who I'm looking for as
the audience, or who I like tothink I'm talking to, because
(17:08):
that's where I orient the guestand as a guest, you want to keep
that in mind when I'm askedquestions.
This is where the leadershipadvice in the book okay, it's
leadership advice, it's a littlegeneral.
I do have a couple examples,but then the show.
I'm going to change thatleadership advice.
If it's college students versusmid-level execs in
manufacturing versus seniorleaders in healthcare, I'm going
(17:31):
to try to pull in examples mostrelevant to them to really help
it resonate and make it asvaluable as I can for the
audience.
Carl Richards (17:39):
I think, on behalf of the host as well.
The host really needs to knowwho their client avatar is, and
I know that in some of the workthat we do, it's something that,
believe it or not, maybe it'snot much of a shock to you, but
there are still a lot ofentrepreneurs, business owners,
even savvy ones, that aren'tfully aware, or they haven't
(17:59):
established, who their ideal ortheir core client or, in the
sense of a podcast, or who theircore audience is.
You need to know that, but, toyour point, you also need to be
able to as a guest, you need tobe able to style shift.
So knowing who the audience isis crucial, and I like how.
Just full disclosure, as you'relistening to this, that Mark
and I had a conversation about15, 20 minutes before we even
(18:20):
hit record, even though Mark andI are connected through
Podmatch and I can't say thatenough because I'm sure that
Alex Sanfilippo at some pointwill write me a big check for
saying PodMatch a number oftimes Through PodMatch, I have a
profile, mark has a profile, Isee his biography.
He sees who my ideal client isor my core audience Mark still
(18:41):
asks you still ask that question, mark before we even hit record
.
You said, just to be clear Ijust want to make sure who's
your audience and I thought thatwas very genuine of you to ask
that.
Mark Herschberg (18:56):
Even though you've read it, it was very
clear that you wanted to be 100%sure, so you could give the
right examples and you neverknow, especially as a guest.
Has the podcast changed orshifted?
I do hear from some people.
Well, I noticed recently we'remore of this.
Okay, well, that's helpful, anda host may not be updating that
as frequently as we're noticingchanges, so I always just like
to get that checked.
It also for many guests.
(19:17):
I had a couple client meetingsright before I came into this.
I'm jumping from one to another.
I read that profile on you andyour audience a few days ago.
Let me just reset.
Let me have it right there infront of me right as we jump
into the show and so it focuseseveryone.
Carl Richards (19:34):
You hit the nail right on the head there where we
are in such a busy placesometimes, where I'll give you
an example that recently I hadfour meetings in the morning.
Then I had an event I washosting that was a three-hour
event.
Then I had a recording.
Well, the recording came prettymuch right after my event.
So I had an event I was hosting.
That was a three-hour event.
Then I had a recording.
Well, the recording came prettymuch right after my event.
So I had minutes literally tostyle shift from I'm being a
(19:56):
host of an event to I'mrecording a podcast episode.
It doesn't sound like it's muchof a shift, but it is.
It's a mental shift.
It's now I have to open myPodmatch profile thing again and
look at who my guest is andjust make sure I have the right
information, which is why Ialways take that 15 minutes and
I always suggest to hosts thatyou give it a little bit of time
(20:17):
, don't record so tightly thatyou don't leave enough time to
have that conversation with yourguest ahead of time.
But I still needed to.
Just can we just talk a fewminutes before we hit record,
just to get into that mode.
So I really like how you didthat right off the top to
confirm that.
And yeah, you're right, thingschange.
I mean, this show used to beall about speaker training and
(20:38):
how to get on stages and how toperform on stages, and then we
started a second podcast and wemerged the two together, which
is how we came withCommunication Connection
Community.
I want to talk about community,if you don't mind, because I
know you've been on over 400shows.
I want to get your insightsbased on where you've been in
(20:58):
the last three years and theshows you've been on, and it's
clear as a guest, that you haveyour finger on the pulse of
what's happening in thepodcasting space.
Plus, you've helped guests andhosts improve their performance
on podcasts.
Are you seeing an uptick in thecommunity piece coming out in
the podcasting space?
Are we seeing that there's moreof an emphasis or an emphasis
(21:18):
on building community, as you'realso building out your show?
Mark Herschberg (21:22):
It certainly has grown over the past three
years since I started doing thisend of 2020, really beginning
of 2021.
We're seeing communities likePodmatch, as we mentioned
earlier.
We're seeing the podcastingconferences get bigger.
We're also seeing more and moreFacebook groups and other
groups, although honestly, Ifind a lot of those to be very
(21:42):
noisy.
When I look at the onlineFacebook groups, it's a lot of
beginning podcasters, beginningguests and people who are
sometimes they're just trying tofigure out hey, what mic do I
use?
We see that question all thetime and that's fine, although,
honestly, those forums areprobably not the best place for
it.
You should be reading elsewhere, not just whoever happens to
(22:03):
respond that day with advice,but then also people are saying
I'm looking for my first guestor please help me promote my
show, and unfortunately, thesecommunities also get very
overrun with marketers.
We see the same thing, by theway, in author groups.
This isn't unique to podcasting.
Same thing a lot of earlyauthors, a lot of people just
trying to sell into these groups.
So I don't find them to be veryhigh value.
(22:26):
I think we still need to seesome high value groups and the
key I've written up on, as muchas I'm egalitarian, and I'd like
to see groups are open to manypeople, especially since I grew
up a nerd, as excluded for mostof them.
There is something to having acertain level of restriction and
quality control and that canalso, depending on how you do it
(22:47):
, engender trust.
That's going to create a lotmore connection and connectivity
and engagement among your group.
So we need to, I think, createsome higher quality groups in
the community.
Carl Richards (22:59):
I like the way that you explained that and
identified some of thechallenges that we're seeing,
and I've seen that too,especially on Facebook, not so
much in LinkedIn, but certainlyon Facebook.
You see these and some of thesegroups are massive, thousands
of people in them and, like yousay, what microphone should I
use?
Well, what's your budget?
I mean, if it's less than $50,you're kind of limited.
(23:20):
Oh, actually, no, you're notlimited.
There are a lot of options inthat, but again, it goes to okay
.
Well, what's the quality thatyou're going after?
Because quality is one of thosethings, that is, we're really
seeing an uptick in the qualitynot just of the content, but
also the quality of the sound,of the video, of all of those
things, especially the audiothat's being put out there.
(23:40):
So, great insight on that.
I did want to give you theopportunity to some quick tips
for hosts and guests.
I know I don't want you to giveaway your best up, but some
quick tips for guests and hoststhat maybe need a little bit of
an uptick in how they're doingthings.
What would you suggest toguests and hosts?
Let's start with guests.
What can they do to just bebetter guests?
Mark Herschberg (24:01):
I do give it all away.
I had people say, mark, youcould do some coaching for
podcasts.
I don't want to do coaching.
Could do some coaching forpodcasts.
I don't want to do coaching.
Everything I'm going to tellyou and more you can get in my
articles completely free.
I don't even need your email,just go read them.
So for guests, a couple ofthings.
We talked about keeping theaudience in mind.
We talked about giving away thecontent.
(24:23):
Don't hide it.
Don't say buy my book, you haveto do further.
Just give it away.
Don't monologue.
We have seen people who getonto a topic and just keep
talking, talking, talking.
I aim for answers that areprobably about 60 to 120 seconds
.
I may go a little longer,especially for some of the
things I get asked and I have togive some context or example.
(24:45):
Maybe there's more to thingsthat might be a full
three-minute kind of monologue,but otherwise, this is a
conversation.
This is not formal talk.
So have that conversation.
Don't promote your content.
I hear people who say, oh, well, in my book and of course in
chapter seven and on pagewhatever, and they just hit over
and over.
Yes, it's fine to say, oh, inchapter two I do talk about and
(25:09):
give some of that, but don'tjust beat them over the head
with your content.
You're there to provide value.
You can do the call to action,the little bit of sales at the
end but you're there for theaudience, not for selling your
material.
Carl Richards (25:25):
I like that.
I think that's a technique thatI think spilled over from the
conference slash speaking world,where somebody would be on
stage and they'd say you know,in chapter seven of my book, dah
, dah, dah, dah.
And then, oh, by the way, thatbook I was talking about you can
grab your copy.
It's at the back of the room,right.
So this is a different platformaltogether, right.
So I'm really glad you sharedthat, because I think that does
get overdone quite often.
(25:45):
What about hosts?
What are some quick hits thathosts can do to really knock it
out of the park and really be agood host?
We mentioned.
Mark Herschberg (25:54):
Of course, as a host, you should express who
your audience is, so you helporient your guests to who they
are.
One of my biggest pet peeves ishow people read intros.
I see so many hosts who havenot seen the intro before and
they read it almost word forword in a very stunted way.
(26:14):
Mark Hirshberg is the author ofthe Career Tool essential
skills for success that no onetaught you.
Scan the thing, just scan itahead of time.
It's okay if you have to pausebetween a word my bio.
Especially with words likecryptography that usually trips
people up.
But for example, we didn't havethis in my bio, but it's on the
(26:37):
longer versions.
I'm on the board of plant amillion corals.
It's a nonprofit where we'rejust trying to help the oceans
and I can't tell you how manypeople see it as plant a million
corals.
But if you scanned it ahead oftime, clearly that word doesn't
work.
So just glance at ahead of time.
Maybe practice it once or twice.
You sound professional when youread it correctly.
(27:00):
It's not about even trying tomake the guest look better.
It's just sounding like youknow what you're doing, versus
you're caught off guard like adeer in the headlights, and it
really makes you look amateur.
Carl Richards (27:10):
To me it's hosting 101.
And maybe this is a spilloverfrom my training as a
broadcaster, where I would readeverything over at least once.
Some of it was done on the fly,I'll admit, but I always,
always before we started, again,before we hit record, I said,
just to confirm your last nameis Hirschberg, because you never
(27:33):
know if there's an S and a Cand an H.
Is it Hirsch?
Is it Hirsch?
You just don't know.
But then also I knew and by theway, you probably heard the
cleaned up version of myintroduction for Mark.
I tripped over it a couple oftimes and I read it out loud
twice before I even got on thecall with Mark.
So it pays to read it over, notjust so you're familiar with it,
(27:55):
but so you can have thatauthentic or that make it sound
like you're not reading.
That is a skill and again, it'sone that, as a broadcaster,
that comes very easy to me.
But if it's not a natural skillthat you have the practice, the
reading it over, maybe it'smore than twice, Maybe you have
to read it three times, Maybeyou have to copy and paste a bio
(28:15):
and put it into a word doc andedit it a little bit, so it is
more free-flowing than the onethat the guest has given you
just so that you do sound andyou come off as being the expert
.
There's nothing worse as aguest than hearing the host read
your bio, make it sound clunkyor, even worse, read it
incorrectly or make stuff up ormake stuff up.
Mark Herschberg (28:42):
One other thing that really frustrates me is
when the call to action hostssay and we're going to have the
link to your website in the shownotes, but they don't say what
it is.
And we have to remember when,where and how people engage with
this content.
Most people are listening to apodcast while they're doing
something else driving to work,on the subway, out, jogging in
the gym, cooking dinner.
(29:02):
They are not in a place wherethey can say oh, what a great
episode, let me jump to the shownotes.
And by the time they pull intowork, by the time the podcast
finishes, dinner is ready andthey're going to forget about
looking at the show notes.
So always, yes, put in the shownotes, but always say please,
(29:22):
what is your URL, let the guestor, if you want to do it, as a
host, but always give the audioversion.
Assume people are not lookingat the show notes we hope they
are and you can put in moreinformation, but give the audio
version of the key takeaways tocall to action.
And in fact, by the samecontext, I see a lot of people
trip up where they do havevisuals.
Some people say, oh, I've got aPowerPoint slide.
(29:43):
Well, remember, some people arelistening to this in audio only
, even if it is video.
Again, people are at the gym,people are driving.
They are not looking.
They're using it on a smalldevice where they can't even see
the screen and they can't seewhat you're doing.
So, if you do have somethingvisual, I'm showing a triangle
and you can see one of the sidesis much bigger and here's why
(30:05):
Give that explanation.
Likewise, remember the whenpart Earlier I mentioned, we're
recording this in June of 2024.
I don't know when this is goingto come out and I certainly
don't know when you're listeningto this.
You might be listening to thisin 2026.
At this point, I'll have donemore podcasts or less.
Now, most of our content isevergreen, but especially for
(30:27):
things that are more contextsensitive.
If we're talking the economy,politics, the state of AI in
2024, it's still wildly changing, so you always want to give
that context.
Carl Richards (30:38):
Very well stated.
I could not agree more.
I also use those nuances, suchas, especially this last four
years, where there was a lot ofdiscomfort and a lot of
uncertainty with the pandemic,and I would say things like this
, by the way, is being recordedin April of 2021 and we're under
lockdown not to trip it back orsend people on a trip down
(31:01):
memory lane, but to also remindpeople that what's happening in
that moment.
The other thing that I like,how you mentioned about the
visuals.
That's partly why I'm smirking.
By the way, you can't see mesmirking if you're listening,
obviously, but I'm smirkingbecause you're talking about the
audio version of the links thatgo in the show notes.
But then also when you're usingvisuals such as PowerPoint and
(31:22):
you're just saying, look,there's a triangle.
Or you don't even say it's atriangle, you just say, as you
can see on my slide, well, Ican't see the slide.
You need to paint the picture,and in the radio world we call
it literally theater of the mind, where we're explaining exactly
what that visual is.
Mark Herschberg (31:45):
So thank you very much, and this is where I'm
going to give you theopportunity this is the main
reason why I'm smirking is toshare with the audience what
you're going to pass on to them.
I created an app called RingBump.
One of the things thatfrustrates me about podcasts is
that because people arelistening to them as they're
cooking dinner or driving towork, as soon as the show is
over, they're doing a context,switch back to something else
and they're going to forget theadvice in your episode within
(32:06):
hours, if not minutes, forevergreen content.
This is for business, self-help, all sorts of different advice
where they're going to hopefullyremember and use that advice
long after the episode's over.
We want to help them rememberit.
We do this because we careabout our audience.
We also do it because, if youwant to build that brand trust,
(32:26):
it's not going to work if theyforget what advice you're giving
them.
It's not going to help them andthey're not going to trust you.
So I created a completely freeapp called Brain Bump.
Brain Bump takes the key ideasfrom books, blogs, podcasts,
classes, talks, puts those intothe app and so your audience can
take away the key salientpoints that they heard.
(32:48):
They can either do ajust-in-time access, so if you
have a show on negotiating, so Isay, oh, I've got a negotiation
tomorrow.
I need to prep.
Well, the apps are all tagged,all tagged by topic, think
hashtags and say, ok,negotiation tips, bring them up,
or they can do a just in time.
My spouse is yelling at me fornot being a good husband.
(33:08):
Every day at six o'clockbecause I head home I get a tip
marriage advice that came fromyour show, so I get it when and
where I need it.
I don't even need to open theapp and all of it is coming with
your content brand and all ofit is hyperlinked back to your
show or other content.
(33:28):
So that's the Brain Bump appand you can find it at
brainbumpappcom.
At that website there are linksto the Android and iPhone
stores.
There's also an FAQ and if youare a content creator, if you're
a podcaster or speaker of othercontent, there's a form at the
bottom of the page If you'reinterested in getting your
content on there completely freeto stay sticky with your
audience.
Carl Richards (33:48):
I love it.
Brain Bump, that's bump with aB, by the way, brainbumpappcom
and we will put the link in theshow notes, for sure, and all of
Mark's other pertinentinformation.
Mark, it's been a phenomenalconversation.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Before I turn you loose to gosave some podcasters and guests
from total destruction, I'llleave you with the final thought
(34:09):
.
Mark Herschberg (34:10):
We talked about the need for community and how,
while it's starting, it's stillvery noisy.
I hope someone out here saysI'm going to build a higher
quality community still verynoisy.
I hope someone out here saysI'm going to build a higher
quality community.
But even if you're not ready todo that for all of us, consider
forming a mastermind group.
And yes, there's lots of peoplewho will charge for us.
But you can just get togetherwith a handful of podcasters and
(34:32):
say we're going to cometogether and maybe we meet once
a month, but we're going to justshare techniques that we've
learned, share ideas.
That doesn't mean you shouldn'talso have a coach or service,
should you need it.
They're not mutually exclusive.
But do find other people,uplift each other, because
that's a great way to improveand to build your own networks.
Carl Richards (34:53):
Mark Herschberg.
I think I'll leave it rightthere.
Thank you so much for being myguest today and thank you for
joining us today.
Special thanks to our producerand production lead, Dom
Carrillo, our music guru, NathanSimon, and the person who works
the arms all of our arms,actually my trusty assistant,
Stephanie Gaffor.
If you like what you heardtoday, leave us a comment and a
(35:14):
review and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email.
Askcarl at carlspeaksca.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes, and if you're
(35:35):
ready to take the plunge andjoin the over 3 million people
who have said yes to podcasting,let's have a conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space, because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time.
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episode,and my guest today i.
He's the author of the CareerToolkit Essential Skills for
Success that no One Taught youand creator of the Brain Bump
(00:47):
app not Brain Dump app the BrainBump app From tracking
criminals and terrorists on thedark web to creating
marketplaces and newauthentication systems.
Mark has spent his careerlaunching and developing new
ventures at startups and Fortune500s and in academia, with over
a dozen patents to his name.
He helped to start theUndergraduate Practice
(01:09):
Opportunities Program, dubbedMIT's Career Success Accelerator
, where he teaches annually AtMIT.
He received a BS in physics, aBS in electrical engineering and
computer science and a master'sin electrical engineering and
computer science, focusing oncryptography.
He's also spent the last threeyears guesting on podcasts,
(01:31):
where he has guested on over 400podcasts.
We're going to have a fantasticconversation about a number of
different things, mark.
Welcome to the podcast, thanksfor having me on.
Mark Herschberg (01:41):
It's my pleasure to be here.
Carl Richards (01:43):
Let's do a deep dive into the podcasting space.
I mean, you have a lot ofaccolades to the work that
you've done and thank you somuch for all of the work that
you've done over the years, butthis 400 podcasts in three years
thing has really got meintrigued.
So what led you to podcastingto begin with?
Mark Herschberg (02:00):
When I was working on my book which was not
intended as a book, but thenone day I realized this is
becoming a book I called up myfriend, Dori Clark.
I said Dori, I think I'm doinga book.
Can you help me?
And she was kind enough to sitdown with me give me some advice
.
Dori is a award-winningbusiness book author very
successful and she said for mynext book, I'm going to go on
(02:24):
150 podcasts to promote it.
I thought, okay, well, ifthat's what Dory's doing, that's
what I should be doing, and Iset out to go on 150 podcasts
Once I figured out how to findand get on podcasts efficiently.
At that point the flywheel wasgoing and I just kept on going
because I wanted to I'm anoverachiever, but also because
(02:44):
it's a lot of fun and so I'vebeen on 400 to date.
We're recording this in June of2024, but I expect to keep
going and appearing on just anypodcast that really wants to
have me.
Carl Richards (02:56):
Phenomenal, phenomenal journey.
As you get into the space, alot of people, when they're
getting in, they'll use theguesting experience as a
springboard into hosting theirown show.
You don't have your own show.
You've been on 400 other shows,or 400 plus guest appearances.
Why don't you have your own?
Mark Herschberg (03:12):
show?
It's a question I get askedoften.
It's important to understandwhat your goals are.
Now, I'm probably a littledifferent than most podcast
guests in that I really don'tsell much.
So a little context tounderstand why I don't have a
show.
There is Mark Hirshberg who doestech, startup companies and
that's how I make my money.
(03:33):
There's Mark Hirshberg who hasa book called the Career Toolkit
, but let me tell you, no onemakes money selling books Maybe
Stephen King, a few others, butthe standard business book
author.
That's not how you make money.
Most people who do that makemoney because they're also a
coach or a consultant, but Idon't sell any services around
(03:54):
that.
I'm not trying to be yourexecutive coach, so I've got
nothing to upsell.
I do some paid corporatespeaking, but you don't really
sell that through your ownpodcast.
And then there's MarkHirschberg who has Brain Bump,
which is a free app I give away.
It's free for everyone, sothere's no money there.
So my goal is sharinginformation, which I can do by
(04:17):
casting a wider net, by going ondifferent shows and hanging
different audiences.
There's maybe a little bit ofselling hey, buy my book or
download the app but that's aone-off thing and so you can
learn enough in one show todecide if you want to go further
.
Hosting my own show.
There's nothing to upsell.
Where hosting makes sense is Iwant you to buy my $5,000,
(04:38):
$10,000 coaching package.
So now I'm going to go to othershows to get you to come to me
and then build up that trustshow after show.
But that's not my goal, so Idon't need a show for it.
Carl Richards (04:49):
It's a really good answer because, again, you
would expect that, after 400plus guest appearances, that you
would be ready to do your ownshow.
But, as you've just explained,it just it doesn't make sense,
it's not a fit.
And why would you do it ifyou're not going to be able to,
like you say, to create thatfunnel or that customer
experience or that journey toallow people to follow you not
(05:11):
just to follow, but to find outmore and really get into your
community, which is a place that, I believe, is where podcasting
is going?
I'm sure we'll talk about thata little bit, but you said
something very interesting aboutthat.
There's the podcasters saidsomething very interesting about
you know that.
There's the podcasters, whotheir coaches, their consultants
.
They have that offering thatthey're going to utilize, and
(05:33):
your experience has been workingwith not only guests but hosts
and making sure that they'regiving the best experiences to
their audiences.
So let's shift into that alittle bit, because I think that
there are a lot of benefits tohaving a podcast or being a
guest on podcasts, but somepodcasters actually probably a
large percentage of them, forwhatever reason, they're missing
(05:55):
the mark.
And why is it they're missingthe mark?
Mark Herschberg (05:58):
And they just haven't had any training.
They said, well, I've heardsome podcasts, so I think I'll
start my own.
And that's like saying, well,I've seen other people drive, so
I'm 16, now Let me just startthe car.
I know what the steering wheeldoes and there's a gas pedal and
I think there's some otherthing in there.
But of course, when you watch a16-year-old drive, it's very
stilted because they just don'thave the experience, and that's
(06:21):
why we give them driving lessons, that's why we have a
provisional license wherethey're being supervised.
But podcasting, it's the samething.
Well, okay, there's amicrophone, I hit the record
button, isn't that it?
That's the only thing I see.
And so I think, just throughservices like yours, through
podcasting communities, throughtalking to others, we can start
(06:41):
to learn.
It's not just press the gas andturn the wheel to others.
We can start to learn.
It's not just press the gas andturn the wheel.
Carl Richards (06:47):
There's a little more subtlety to it.
Yeah, it's like saying I'vewatched NASCAR on TV.
Looks like you just get behindthe wheel and drive in a circle
a few times and the goal is tobe in front all the time.
That might be a simplifiedversion of it, but you're right
and I find that that trainingpiece is crucial, and having a
(07:08):
goal, having a vision or a planfor where you're going to take
this thing, and I think that'sone of the challenges in the
podcasting space.
It's why we have, I think, sucha lot of shows end up in
podcatory, shall we say, becausepeople start their show,
they're all excited, they'veheard podcasts, they go I'm
going to do that.
And they do a few shows and gooh, this is harder than I
(07:28):
thought it would be.
Or they want to be theovernight success.
They listen to a big show, likea Joe Rogan show, and go hey,
if he can do it, I can do it,not realizing that there's a
formula or there's a system orthere's a way to make it
successful for yourself.
But it doesn't just happen bychance.
Mark Herschberg (07:44):
They also don't see what's off camera.
So, just like, if you're adriver, you do have to maintain
your car, you have to change theoil and fix a flat tire from
time to time.
So too, we see pod fade happenso often because people say,
well, I hit record, I got theshow done, maybe they did
editing, they have that conceptand then I just upload it.
(08:05):
Why don't I have a millionpeople listening?
Because you have to work at it.
And that's the part peopledon't see.
They don't see all the effortyou're doing to gain listeners,
to build the brand, to market it.
And that's where people getvery frustrated that it's not
the overnight success that theythought it could be.
Carl Richards (08:23):
The other piece of that equation, too, is
there's this emphasis now it'sprobably been going on for quite
a bit, but we're seeing it moreand more this emphasis on
quality and I've been harping onthis since day one where good
enough is good enough if youknow what the standard or what
the metric is, but if you don'tknow, you can't just wipe your
(08:46):
hands clean of it and say, well,that's good enough, without
editing, without taking outhiccups and coughs and big
gaffes or gaps even in themiddle that really deflect from
your messaging, Because, as muchas we'd like to think that
people aren't judging us, theyare.
They're very much judging thequality of not just the content
but also the production value,and I've heard on more than one
(09:10):
occasion you probably have too,Mark that oh my goodness, I
can't believe these guys orthese people are just rambling
and not really saying anything.
There's nothing of value, andsometimes they're not
articulating exactly whatthey're not hearing.
They're saying this show, theshow sucks, or I can't stand
listening to those folks.
How are you helping people,though, in that space?
Mark Herschberg (09:30):
Now I'll mention, as we're going through
this advice.
I wrote up a series of 10articles called Podcast Alchemy
and so on my Cognosco Mediawebsite and we'll give you those
links.
In the show notes you can findthese articles and read through
them.
I've seen all sorts of problemsfrom poor audio.
It sounds great when recordingand then I'll hear the playback.
It sounds like I'm calling inon a telephone and that's just
(09:53):
distracting.
Rarely do you have peoplesaying, oh, I love the quality
of that audio.
You have a few audiophilesdoing it.
It only detracts when you getit wrong, but it's very
noticeable when it's wrong.
Sometimes we have people rambletoo long, both hosts and guests.
Now a lot of people like theauthenticity of podcasts.
They like it's a conversation.
(10:13):
We're not just focused.
This isn't a college lecture,but I've seen shows where
they'll spend 10 minutes talkingabout mutual friends or other
background and the listener isjust thinking I could deal with
a minute or two.
It warms me up into theconversation but I'm getting
bored.
I don't need to hear about yourvacation last month and what
was like bringing your kidsversus the other person's kids.
(10:34):
So keeping a reasonable amountof diversion but mostly staying
focused.
And then one of my biggest petpeeves with guests is where
guests say I've got six secretson how to create a great website
, but you have to buy my book inorder to get, or you have to
download my whatever you knowwhat.
They're not secrets.
I can tell you in my book.
(10:56):
I think I have good advice.
But I'm not saying this is theonly place to get that advice.
A good deal of it you can getmany other places.
I just say it in a certain way.
That's maybe better or worse.
And so I had the philosophygoing on these shows where I
would talk about the book Ask meanything, I will give you.
Here is the advice, here is thetakeaway.
I give it away all for free inother sources because it's about
(11:18):
, I think, first helping theaudience.
That's what we are here to do,first and foremost.
But even if you do havesomething to sell, again, you're
not making money from your book.
You're building the brand trust.
So give away those free samplesbecause people aren't going for
, oh, the six secrets, I have itNow, I'm done.
They're going for what'sunderneath that, getting the
(11:41):
bigger picture that they get inyour book, your class, your
lecture, whatever it is you'retrying to promote.
Carl Richards (11:46):
Building the brand trust, but also building
that relationship.
So people have developed enoughof a know, like and trust
factor so that they will, at theappropriate time, take the next
step or take that big step andstart working with you or tap
into one of your programs, anevent or something that you're
offering from the show.
And I like how it's funny howyou mentioned the giving away
(12:09):
things for free.
I've heard a couple of coachessay I don't give away anything
for free.
I'll give away some tips maybe,but then they'll to your point.
They'll say but you have to buythe book to get the rest of it.
The other side of that is theygive away everything for free
but what they don't get this is,I think, where some podcasters
also trip up is.
(12:30):
My first podcast was aboutspeaker training and coaching
and I would give everything awayfor free.
But what the audience never gotfor free was me.
They never got me as a coach.
They got the tips, they got thetricks, they got the, even the
techniques, but you don't learnunless you do tap into those
services.
So this whole idea of holdingsomething, holding your IP close
to your chest and saying youcan't have it unless you pay for
(12:53):
it, I think iscounterproductive to what we
should be doing.
Because you're right, it's outthere somewhere, if not in your
Rolodex of services.
Somebody else has somethingthat is similar and they're
willing to give it for free.
Mark Herschberg (13:04):
I'd like you to fitness training If you want to
lose weight, get in shape,learn how to use some piece of
equipment.
You can absolutely find thatfor free on the internet.
There is a video for everythinghow to do this type of exercise
, how you should think aboutyour nutrition, is 100% free.
But then why are people payingfor fitness coaching?
(13:25):
It's because you want to getpersonalized.
You want to get the most out ofyour time investment, and
that's where you do need whetherit's one-on-one coaching or
small group coaching.
That's where you're gettingthat extra return.
Now, if you're just trying todrop five pounds, okay, go look
for advice on the internet andgo follow some best practices,
(13:45):
you're fine.
But when you're really tryingto take that extra step, make a
bigger change, have a biggerimpact, that's where you need
that personalized input.
Carl Richards (13:55):
The personalized service for sure does make a
huge difference.
And yeah, you're right, there'sa lot of things you can figure
out on your own.
But that's why, when you can'tfigure it out on your own or you
don't have the video, or toyour point about the coaching, I
know that if I just keep losingfive pounds you know a pound a
week or whatever it is I'lleventually, with proper diet and
sleep and all of that stuff,I'll be good, I'll lose a few
(14:17):
more pounds and I'll look great.
That doesn't mean I'vestrengthened muscle mass, which
a personal trainer can help mefigure out what muscle group to
work on, how often to work on it, all of those things.
So I'm glad that we'vesolidified that.
I did look back up a little bittoo about something you
mentioned which is one of mybiggest pet peeves as well, and
it's when the conversation goesoff into a completely different
(14:39):
direction or becomes toopersonalized that the audience
ends up being in the background.
And when the audience goes waita minute, they're not talking
to me, like you should always betalking to your audience.
So you know, mark and I arehaving this phenomenal
conversation.
We're talking to you and I hopethat you're getting some great
tips and techniques from this.
Mark and I are sharing ourexperiences.
(15:00):
We're not having sidebarconversations about you know
how's your favorite baseballteam doing?
Like it's not relevant One ofthe best examples I can think of
and maybe you have one too thatyou'd like to share, or some
other insights on this.
I remember doing a podcast auditfor a podcaster who wanted to
elevate the show, wasn't surehow to do it, couldn't figure
out why they weren't gettingtraction from the show, and I
(15:23):
listened to a bunch of episodesand one episode specifically was
talking about how okay, we gotto get this episode done in a
hurry because the World Cup ofSoccer is on, so we're going to
quickly talk to my guest.
And there was so muchdeflection from the guests it's
almost like the guest wasn'tthere because I got to talk to
this guest because we'rerecording an episode, but I got
to also do this quickly so I canget to the World Cup of Soccer
(15:46):
that it was so much of a turnoff.
And I remember putting that inthe evaluation, in the audit,
and I didn't get any pushbackfrom it.
But I remember thinking ifthat's how you're addressing
your audience, if that's howyou're showing up, you're not
going to have an audience forvery long.
Mark Herschberg (16:03):
It sounds like the audience and doing the show
was a burden.
In that case, yeah, first andforemost.
Guests and hosts both need toremember we are here for the
audience.
It's not about selling, it'snot about promotion.
It's about creating goodaudience value.
That value, then you build thebrand, trust and people are open
.
If your goal is to sellsomething, a simple thing both
(16:26):
parties should be doing is,before the recording starts,
being clear on who the audienceis.
If you are a host, I recommendin the emails you send out ahead
of time to the guest you saythis is my audience.
And guess, if you do not getthat before you hit record, ask
the host what can you tell meabout your audience?
(16:47):
Now, I know that many servicesdon't have a lot of information.
They might just say here arethe countries, here's the age
range, gender breakdown, and ifthat's all you have, that's okay
.
But even then say but here is myarchetype, here's who I'm
thinking about as the host,here's who I'm looking for as
the audience, or who I like tothink I'm talking to, because
(17:08):
that's where I orient the guestand as a guest, you want to keep
that in mind when I'm askedquestions.
This is where the leadershipadvice in the book okay, it's
leadership advice, it's a littlegeneral.
I do have a couple examples,but then the show.
I'm going to change thatleadership advice.
If it's college students versusmid-level execs in
manufacturing versus seniorleaders in healthcare, I'm going
(17:31):
to try to pull in examples mostrelevant to them to really help
it resonate and make it asvaluable as I can for the
audience.
Carl Richards (17:39):
I think, on behalf of the host as well.
The host really needs to knowwho their client avatar is, and
I know that in some of the workthat we do, it's something that,
believe it or not, maybe it'snot much of a shock to you, but
there are still a lot ofentrepreneurs, business owners,
even savvy ones, that aren'tfully aware, or they haven't
(17:59):
established, who their ideal ortheir core client or, in the
sense of a podcast, or who theircore audience is.
You need to know that, but, toyour point, you also need to be
able to as a guest, you need tobe able to style shift.
So knowing who the audience isis crucial, and I like how.
Just full disclosure, as you'relistening to this, that Mark
and I had a conversation about15, 20 minutes before we even
(18:20):
hit record, even though Mark andI are connected through
Podmatch and I can't say thatenough because I'm sure that
Alex Sanfilippo at some pointwill write me a big check for
saying PodMatch a number oftimes Through PodMatch, I have a
profile, mark has a profile, Isee his biography.
He sees who my ideal client isor my core audience Mark still
(18:41):
asks you still ask that question, mark before we even hit record
.
You said, just to be clear Ijust want to make sure who's
your audience and I thought thatwas very genuine of you to ask
that.
Mark Herschberg (18:56):
Even though you've read it, it was very
clear that you wanted to be 100%sure, so you could give the
right examples and you neverknow, especially as a guest.
Has the podcast changed orshifted?
I do hear from some people.
Well, I noticed recently we'remore of this.
Okay, well, that's helpful, anda host may not be updating that
as frequently as we're noticingchanges, so I always just like
to get that checked.
It also for many guests.
(19:17):
I had a couple client meetingsright before I came into this.
I'm jumping from one to another.
I read that profile on you andyour audience a few days ago.
Let me just reset.
Let me have it right there infront of me right as we jump
into the show and so it focuseseveryone.
Carl Richards (19:34):
You hit the nail right on the head there where we
are in such a busy placesometimes, where I'll give you
an example that recently I hadfour meetings in the morning.
Then I had an event I washosting that was a three-hour
event.
Then I had a recording.
Well, the recording came prettymuch right after my event.
So I had an event I was hosting.
That was a three-hour event.
Then I had a recording.
Well, the recording came prettymuch right after my event.
So I had minutes literally tostyle shift from I'm being a
(19:56):
host of an event to I'mrecording a podcast episode.
It doesn't sound like it's muchof a shift, but it is.
It's a mental shift.
It's now I have to open myPodmatch profile thing again and
look at who my guest is andjust make sure I have the right
information, which is why Ialways take that 15 minutes and
I always suggest to hosts thatyou give it a little bit of time
(20:17):
, don't record so tightly thatyou don't leave enough time to
have that conversation with yourguest ahead of time.
But I still needed to.
Just can we just talk a fewminutes before we hit record,
just to get into that mode.
So I really like how you didthat right off the top to
confirm that.
And yeah, you're right, thingschange.
I mean, this show used to beall about speaker training and
(20:38):
how to get on stages and how toperform on stages, and then we
started a second podcast and wemerged the two together, which
is how we came withCommunication Connection
Community.
I want to talk about community,if you don't mind, because I
know you've been on over 400shows.
I want to get your insightsbased on where you've been in
(20:58):
the last three years and theshows you've been on, and it's
clear as a guest, that you haveyour finger on the pulse of
what's happening in thepodcasting space.
Plus, you've helped guests andhosts improve their performance
on podcasts.
Are you seeing an uptick in thecommunity piece coming out in
the podcasting space?
Are we seeing that there's moreof an emphasis or an emphasis
(21:18):
on building community, as you'realso building out your show?
Mark Herschberg (21:22):
It certainly has grown over the past three
years since I started doing thisend of 2020, really beginning
of 2021.
We're seeing communities likePodmatch, as we mentioned
earlier.
We're seeing the podcastingconferences get bigger.
We're also seeing more and moreFacebook groups and other
groups, although honestly, Ifind a lot of those to be very
(21:42):
noisy.
When I look at the onlineFacebook groups, it's a lot of
beginning podcasters, beginningguests and people who are
sometimes they're just trying tofigure out hey, what mic do I
use?
We see that question all thetime and that's fine, although,
honestly, those forums areprobably not the best place for
it.
You should be reading elsewhere, not just whoever happens to
(22:03):
respond that day with advice,but then also people are saying
I'm looking for my first guestor please help me promote my
show, and unfortunately, thesecommunities also get very
overrun with marketers.
We see the same thing, by theway, in author groups.
This isn't unique to podcasting.
Same thing a lot of earlyauthors, a lot of people just
trying to sell into these groups.
So I don't find them to be veryhigh value.
(22:26):
I think we still need to seesome high value groups and the
key I've written up on, as muchas I'm egalitarian, and I'd like
to see groups are open to manypeople, especially since I grew
up a nerd, as excluded for mostof them.
There is something to having acertain level of restriction and
quality control and that canalso, depending on how you do it
(22:47):
, engender trust.
That's going to create a lotmore connection and connectivity
and engagement among your group.
So we need to, I think, createsome higher quality groups in
the community.
Carl Richards (22:59):
I like the way that you explained that and
identified some of thechallenges that we're seeing,
and I've seen that too,especially on Facebook, not so
much in LinkedIn, but certainlyon Facebook.
You see these and some of thesegroups are massive, thousands
of people in them and, like yousay, what microphone should I
use?
Well, what's your budget?
I mean, if it's less than $50,you're kind of limited.
(23:20):
Oh, actually, no, you're notlimited.
There are a lot of options inthat, but again, it goes to okay
.
Well, what's the quality thatyou're going after?
Because quality is one of thosethings, that is, we're really
seeing an uptick in the qualitynot just of the content, but
also the quality of the sound,of the video, of all of those
things, especially the audiothat's being put out there.
(23:40):
So, great insight on that.
I did want to give you theopportunity to some quick tips
for hosts and guests.
I know I don't want you to giveaway your best up, but some
quick tips for guests and hoststhat maybe need a little bit of
an uptick in how they're doingthings.
What would you suggest toguests and hosts?
Let's start with guests.
What can they do to just bebetter guests?
Mark Herschberg (24:01):
I do give it all away.
I had people say, mark, youcould do some coaching for
podcasts.
I don't want to do coaching.
Could do some coaching forpodcasts.
I don't want to do coaching.
Everything I'm going to tellyou and more you can get in my
articles completely free.
I don't even need your email,just go read them.
So for guests, a couple ofthings.
We talked about keeping theaudience in mind.
We talked about giving away thecontent.
(24:23):
Don't hide it.
Don't say buy my book, you haveto do further.
Just give it away.
Don't monologue.
We have seen people who getonto a topic and just keep
talking, talking, talking.
I aim for answers that areprobably about 60 to 120 seconds
.
I may go a little longer,especially for some of the
things I get asked and I have togive some context or example.
(24:45):
Maybe there's more to thingsthat might be a full
three-minute kind of monologue,but otherwise, this is a
conversation.
This is not formal talk.
So have that conversation.
Don't promote your content.
I hear people who say, oh, well, in my book and of course in
chapter seven and on pagewhatever, and they just hit over
and over.
Yes, it's fine to say, oh, inchapter two I do talk about and
(25:09):
give some of that, but don'tjust beat them over the head
with your content.
You're there to provide value.
You can do the call to action,the little bit of sales at the
end but you're there for theaudience, not for selling your
material.
Carl Richards (25:25):
I like that.
I think that's a technique thatI think spilled over from the
conference slash speaking world,where somebody would be on
stage and they'd say you know,in chapter seven of my book, dah
, dah, dah, dah.
And then, oh, by the way, thatbook I was talking about you can
grab your copy.
It's at the back of the room,right.
So this is a different platformaltogether, right.
So I'm really glad you sharedthat, because I think that does
get overdone quite often.
(25:45):
What about hosts?
What are some quick hits thathosts can do to really knock it
out of the park and really be agood host?
We mentioned.
Mark Herschberg (25:54):
Of course, as a host, you should express who
your audience is, so you helporient your guests to who they
are.
One of my biggest pet peeves ishow people read intros.
I see so many hosts who havenot seen the intro before and
they read it almost word forword in a very stunted way.
(26:14):
Mark Hirshberg is the author ofthe Career Tool essential
skills for success that no onetaught you.
Scan the thing, just scan itahead of time.
It's okay if you have to pausebetween a word my bio.
Especially with words likecryptography that usually trips
people up.
But for example, we didn't havethis in my bio, but it's on the
(26:37):
longer versions.
I'm on the board of plant amillion corals.
It's a nonprofit where we'rejust trying to help the oceans
and I can't tell you how manypeople see it as plant a million
corals.
But if you scanned it ahead oftime, clearly that word doesn't
work.
So just glance at ahead of time.
Maybe practice it once or twice.
You sound professional when youread it correctly.
(27:00):
It's not about even trying tomake the guest look better.
It's just sounding like youknow what you're doing, versus
you're caught off guard like adeer in the headlights, and it
really makes you look amateur.
Carl Richards (27:10):
To me it's hosting 101.
And maybe this is a spilloverfrom my training as a
broadcaster, where I would readeverything over at least once.
Some of it was done on the fly,I'll admit, but I always,
always before we started, again,before we hit record, I said,
just to confirm your last nameis Hirschberg, because you never
(27:33):
know if there's an S and a Cand an H.
Is it Hirsch?
Is it Hirsch?
You just don't know.
But then also I knew and by theway, you probably heard the
cleaned up version of myintroduction for Mark.
I tripped over it a couple oftimes and I read it out loud
twice before I even got on thecall with Mark.
So it pays to read it over, notjust so you're familiar with it,
(27:55):
but so you can have thatauthentic or that make it sound
like you're not reading.
That is a skill and again, it'sone that, as a broadcaster,
that comes very easy to me.
But if it's not a natural skillthat you have the practice, the
reading it over, maybe it'smore than twice, Maybe you have
to read it three times, Maybeyou have to copy and paste a bio
(28:15):
and put it into a word doc andedit it a little bit, so it is
more free-flowing than the onethat the guest has given you
just so that you do sound andyou come off as being the expert
.
There's nothing worse as aguest than hearing the host read
your bio, make it sound clunkyor, even worse, read it
incorrectly or make stuff up ormake stuff up.
Mark Herschberg (28:42):
One other thing that really frustrates me is
when the call to action hostssay and we're going to have the
link to your website in the shownotes, but they don't say what
it is.
And we have to remember when,where and how people engage with
this content.
Most people are listening to apodcast while they're doing
something else driving to work,on the subway, out, jogging in
the gym, cooking dinner.
(29:02):
They are not in a place wherethey can say oh, what a great
episode, let me jump to the shownotes.
And by the time they pull intowork, by the time the podcast
finishes, dinner is ready andthey're going to forget about
looking at the show notes.
So always, yes, put in the shownotes, but always say please,
(29:22):
what is your URL, let the guestor, if you want to do it, as a
host, but always give the audioversion.
Assume people are not lookingat the show notes we hope they
are and you can put in moreinformation, but give the audio
version of the key takeaways tocall to action.
And in fact, by the samecontext, I see a lot of people
trip up where they do havevisuals.
Some people say, oh, I've got aPowerPoint slide.
(29:43):
Well, remember, some people arelistening to this in audio only
, even if it is video.
Again, people are at the gym,people are driving.
They are not looking.
They're using it on a smalldevice where they can't even see
the screen and they can't seewhat you're doing.
So, if you do have somethingvisual, I'm showing a triangle
and you can see one of the sidesis much bigger and here's why
(30:05):
Give that explanation.
Likewise, remember the whenpart Earlier I mentioned, we're
recording this in June of 2024.
I don't know when this is goingto come out and I certainly
don't know when you're listeningto this.
You might be listening to thisin 2026.
At this point, I'll have donemore podcasts or less.
Now, most of our content isevergreen, but especially for
(30:27):
things that are more contextsensitive.
If we're talking the economy,politics, the state of AI in
2024, it's still wildly changing, so you always want to give
that context.
Carl Richards (30:38):
Very well stated.
I could not agree more.
I also use those nuances, suchas, especially this last four
years, where there was a lot ofdiscomfort and a lot of
uncertainty with the pandemic,and I would say things like this
, by the way, is being recordedin April of 2021 and we're under
lockdown not to trip it back orsend people on a trip down
(31:01):
memory lane, but to also remindpeople that what's happening in
that moment.
The other thing that I like,how you mentioned about the
visuals.
That's partly why I'm smirking.
By the way, you can't see mesmirking if you're listening,
obviously, but I'm smirkingbecause you're talking about the
audio version of the links thatgo in the show notes.
But then also when you're usingvisuals such as PowerPoint and
(31:22):
you're just saying, look,there's a triangle.
Or you don't even say it's atriangle, you just say, as you
can see on my slide, well, Ican't see the slide.
You need to paint the picture,and in the radio world we call
it literally theater of the mind, where we're explaining exactly
what that visual is.
Mark Herschberg (31:45):
So thank you very much, and this is where I'm
going to give you theopportunity this is the main
reason why I'm smirking is toshare with the audience what
you're going to pass on to them.
I created an app called RingBump.
One of the things thatfrustrates me about podcasts is
that because people arelistening to them as they're
cooking dinner or driving towork, as soon as the show is
over, they're doing a context,switch back to something else
and they're going to forget theadvice in your episode within
(32:06):
hours, if not minutes, forevergreen content.
This is for business, self-help, all sorts of different advice
where they're going to hopefullyremember and use that advice
long after the episode's over.
We want to help them rememberit.
We do this because we careabout our audience.
We also do it because, if youwant to build that brand trust,
(32:26):
it's not going to work if theyforget what advice you're giving
them.
It's not going to help them andthey're not going to trust you.
So I created a completely freeapp called Brain Bump.
Brain Bump takes the key ideasfrom books, blogs, podcasts,
classes, talks, puts those intothe app and so your audience can
take away the key salientpoints that they heard.
(32:48):
They can either do ajust-in-time access, so if you
have a show on negotiating, so Isay, oh, I've got a negotiation
tomorrow.
I need to prep.
Well, the apps are all tagged,all tagged by topic, think
hashtags and say, ok,negotiation tips, bring them up,
or they can do a just in time.
My spouse is yelling at me fornot being a good husband.
(33:08):
Every day at six o'clockbecause I head home I get a tip
marriage advice that came fromyour show, so I get it when and
where I need it.
I don't even need to open theapp and all of it is coming with
your content brand and all ofit is hyperlinked back to your
show or other content.
(33:28):
So that's the Brain Bump appand you can find it at
brainbumpappcom.
At that website there are linksto the Android and iPhone
stores.
There's also an FAQ and if youare a content creator, if you're
a podcaster or speaker of othercontent, there's a form at the
bottom of the page If you'reinterested in getting your
content on there completely freeto stay sticky with your
audience.
Carl Richards (33:48):
I love it.
Brain Bump, that's bump with aB, by the way, brainbumpappcom
and we will put the link in theshow notes, for sure, and all of
Mark's other pertinentinformation.
Mark, it's been a phenomenalconversation.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
Before I turn you loose to gosave some podcasters and guests
from total destruction, I'llleave you with the final thought
(34:09):
.
Mark Herschberg (34:10):
We talked about the need for community and how,
while it's starting, it's stillvery noisy.
I hope someone out here saysI'm going to build a higher
quality community still verynoisy.
I hope someone out here saysI'm going to build a higher
quality community.
But even if you're not ready todo that for all of us, consider
forming a mastermind group.
And yes, there's lots of peoplewho will charge for us.
But you can just get togetherwith a handful of podcasters and
(34:32):
say we're going to cometogether and maybe we meet once
a month, but we're going to justshare techniques that we've
learned, share ideas.
That doesn't mean you shouldn'talso have a coach or service,
should you need it.
They're not mutually exclusive.
But do find other people,uplift each other, because
that's a great way to improveand to build your own networks.
Carl Richards (34:53):
Mark Herschberg.
I think I'll leave it rightthere.
Thank you so much for being myguest today and thank you for
joining us today.
Special thanks to our producerand production lead, Dom
Carrillo, our music guru, NathanSimon, and the person who works
the arms all of our arms,actually my trusty assistant,
Stephanie Gaffor.
If you like what you heardtoday, leave us a comment and a
(35:14):
review and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email.
Askcarl at carlspeaksca.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes, and if you're
(35:35):
ready to take the plunge andjoin the over 3 million people
who have said yes to podcasting,let's have a conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space, because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.