September 11, 2024 • 31 mins
What if you could transform your marketing strategy to not only reach your audience but genuinely resonate with them? In this episode of the Communication Connection Community, we chat with Guillaume Wiatr, the visionary behind Strategic Narrative and founder of MetaHelm, who reveals how he spent over two years guesting on 55 podcasts to build visibility and forge meaningful connections. Guillaume shares his insights on the concept of meaningful marketing, emphasizing the importance of creating value for both the audience and the marketer. We discuss how doing your homework and truly understanding your audience can lead to impactful, lasting client relationships.
Guillaume Wiatr is the creator of Strategic Narrative, the business strategy consulting and coaching methodology for entrepreneurial leaders of professional services firms.
Through his company, MetaHelm, he steers experts, CEOs, and leadership teams to build a successful business they also love by growing Narrative Power, the leadership ability to defy the normal when the normal is wrong.
A former big-firm strategist, Guillaume has also founded four B2B ventures. His expertise is sought by clients ranging from solopreneurs to global organizations like Microsoft, Spencer Stuart, AIG, Symrise, and the Gates Foundation.
Guillaume loves teaching and mentoring entrepreneurs at startup incubators and the University of Washington’s Master of Science in Entrepreneurship, ranked #3 in the US.
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https://www.metahelm.com/assessment
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Richards (00:04):
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episode,and today on the podcast, we're
talking about marketing.
Now, by design, a podcast is amarketing tool.
We're going to take a deeperdive into marketing, though,
because there are many aspectsabout the marketing piece not
(00:47):
just for podcasting, butmarketing in general that we
really need to be cognizant of,and I don't think that, as
entrepreneurs and businessowners, that we're always doing
our due diligence in this spaceand I'll admit that sometimes I
don't either so who better tobring in a guest that can talk
about it, who spent a lot oftime in this space?
Guillaume W is the creator ofStrategic Narrative, the
(01:11):
business strategy consulting andcoaching methodology for
entrepreneurial leaders ofprofessional services firms.
Through his company, MetaHelm,he steers experts, CEOs and
leadership teams to buildingsuccessful businesses.
They also love, by growingnarrative power, the leadership
ability to defy the normal whenthe normal is wrong.
His expertise is sought byclients ranging from
(01:33):
solopreneurs to globalorganizations such as Microsoft,
Spencer Stewart, AIG, Simriseand the Gates Foundation, and
many more, and I'm so thrilledto be chatting with him today.
Guillaume, welcome to thepodcast.
Guillaume Wiatr (01:47):
Carl, it's good to be here.
It's very, very good to be here.
Carl Richards (01:50):
I'm so glad you said yes, or I said yes.
One or the other Somebody saidyes.
I guess we both have said yesat some point to having this
conversation, and I'm glad thatwe can do this.
I'd like to start bycongratulating you because, as a
marketing tool if I could juststart here you've done something
that a lot of podcasters don'tdo and that you've spent I think
you said you spent a year and ahalf, or maybe even longer,
(02:10):
doing guesting on other people'sshows, which I'm assuming was
not just for the good of yourhealth.
I'm assuming it was formarketing or to get the
messaging out that you like toshare with audiences.
Guillaume Wiatr (02:21):
Yeah, I did it.
For two plus years I've been aguest on 55 podcast shows and
initially my.
The reason why I wanted to dothis is because I wanted to gain
visibility as a thought leaderand a business owner and very
quickly also was reminded thatit's really about connections,
also about practicing andexploring your thinking, your
(02:46):
message, as a lot of people do.
And I found a lot of meaning inthis activity and I'm glad I
didn't jump into podcast hostingtoo quickly.
Look for some people'sstandards.
They would say, okay, it'sreally really slow.
It takes you two years todecide if you want to do your
podcast.
But yeah, it became kind of arecon kind of exercise.
But I made so many greatconnections too, a lot of layers
(03:08):
of values in that exercise.
I'm so glad I did it because Ilearned a lot.
I met some wonderful people,got through super cool processes
as far as how to onboard apodcast guest, but also some bad
ones I mean some that I wouldlabel as bad ones.
My experience wasn't great andit's too bad because doing a
(03:28):
podcast meaningfully is a lot ofwork.
I know your podcast, carl, is alot of work and for a guest you
know a serious guest.
It's also should be also a lotof work, like when I before I
get on a show if I don't knowthe person yet.
You know I spend a few weekslistening to the show when I
have a chance, taking notes andso on.
Carl Richards (03:48):
Well, congratulations, as I said, for
taking that step, that, as yousaid, a lot of people don't do
that, and you're right, there'sgood onboarding processes and
there's some not so goodonboarding processes.
Hopefully, this one has beenpretty good.
I mean, I know off microphone.
(04:09):
You asked me some questions andI tend to have a very relaxed,
laid back approach and I like tohave organic conversations as
opposed to coming in with alitany of questions.
That and this, is always mycaution, because in some cases,
I don't know the guest, I didn'tknow you, but until we chatted.
But we now have, we've chatted,we've connected on LinkedIn and
some other social platforms, Ifeel like, and we're almost the
same age, so I feel like we'rebrothers, right, just different
mothers, but I feel like thatwe're very, we're kindred
(04:35):
spirits, right, I agree.
I think you hit the nail righton the head, though, when you
said that there's due diligence,that it doesn't matter what
space you're in, whether it'sthe podcasting space, whether
it's whatever level of businessor wherever you're at.
There's some things that youshould be doing about the
connection, because theconnection leads to the
relationships that you're goingto build, which leads hopefully
leads to clients and even deepernurtured relationships.
(04:56):
So today, I do want to talkabout, though, what you peg as
meaningful marketing, so I'mgoing to give you the platform
to firstly start off by tellingme, in your words I mean, what
do you mean by meaningfulmarketing?
What?
Guillaume Wiatr (05:09):
is it?
For me, meaningful marketing isthe type of marketing that
creates equally value for theworld outside your prospect,
your market, your clients butalso for you.
It's really the process ofcreating and sharing material
that deeply resonates with youraudience.
A process of creating andsharing material that deeply
resonates with your audience,but also that is helping you
explore, clarify and articulateyour thoughts in a new way.
(05:31):
You're using marketing in thatcontext as a way to find what's
possible out there.
I think it's a very interestingproposition because a lot of
people you know, approachmarketing with the belief that
they know already what theirmessage is.
You know, and I have workedwith a lot of writers and
coaches and you know on thecommunication space who were
(05:52):
like, okay, great, we're goingto do this, fantastic, I mean,
what's your message?
And I, well, I'm still workingon it and, let's be honest, we
are all working on our messageall the time for the rest of our
life.
To me, your message issomething that evolved and
should evolve.
It takes a lifetime, you know,for some really, you know
(06:17):
notorious thought leader to justreally arrive at a spot where
they finally get the level ofclarity they're hoping for.
So this approach, you know thatI describe as meaningful public
.
You know meaningful marketingor publication.
Sometimes I say publication.
It's really an approach thatemphasizes genuine
self-expression and personalgrowth and connection with your
audience.
It's not for everyone.
(06:38):
It requires you to be okay tofail and learn.
It's probably an approach thatwill work well with people who
are already interested or opento concepts like prototyping or
agility.
It is also an approach that Ialways recommend to align with
(06:59):
smaller budgets.
You know you want to be lowbudget on purpose scrappy in the
initial phases so that youdon't get too attached to the
results.
Because one of the biggestproblems I see with my clients
as a business coach is they wantto dive in and get immediately
the $50,000 or $100,000marketing campaign without
(07:21):
having done any tests andtherefore they get on that
process.
But if it doesn't yield theresults or if the process is not
the right one, they stillpursue it because they're too
attached to the outcome, becausethey've paid a lot of money.
So that's at a high level.
You know some of the principlesthat I recommend following.
You know, to do meaningfulmarketing.
Carl Richards (07:40):
There's a few things I want to unpack there
and thank you so much for thatin-depth answer, because I think
that having that foundationcertainly will help us with the
conversation, but I think it'sgood for people going in to know
what is this, and I can givesome examples and specifics and
how I practice it too, if youwill.
(08:00):
Yeah, I'll do it in a minutewith that one.
I want to get back to thisconcept, though, because you
mentioned something that I havebeen advocating since years ago,
when I was in Toastmasters.
Every now and again, you wouldhave somebody in the
organization who would say I'vegot a great title for a speech
Fantastic, what's it about?
What's your talk about?
(08:21):
I don't know.
I haven't written the talk yet,so that goes back to something
that you said about.
You know what's the messaging,and you know messaging needs to
be clear, but if you're startingat the wrong spot, or if you,
you might have the greatesttitle in the world, but if your
messaging is an absolute trainwreck, it's not going to get you
the result you want, and youneed to be clear about what your
messaging is going to be inspeakers, podcasters, coaches
(08:43):
who are going, anyone that'sgoing out there and speaking
about what it is that they dowhich, by the way, as a former
speaker, trainer, should beeveryone in business, and I'm
assuming you agree with me.
It should be a tool that youuse all the time, but it seems
to be a piece that gets missed.
Guillaume Wiatr (08:59):
Yeah, a lot of people want to over-invest in
the thinking part of the processand I think that my approach to
this, my philosophy, is youdiscover what you really meant
to say after you've deliveredthe talk sometimes, actually,
I'm working with a client rightnow and he's launching a new
business and I have a frameworkthat I call strategic narrative
(09:22):
and it's built with four keystories.
They're typically they'renotorious stories and he
prepared ideas and wrote stuffdown and then, when I asked him
to walk through what he wantedto say it was, he told me well,
I guess it's completelydifferent from what I intended
to do, and he felt bad.
He felt like, oh my gosh, it'sreally you know.
(09:43):
I see I'm unclear, I don't knowwhat I want to say, and I
reassured him and say this is anormal process.
This is everybody has to gothrough this, and the faster you
go through this, the faster youembrace it and the faster you
make yourself okay with thediscomfort of not knowing what
to do in the first place, thefaster you get to the meaningful
(10:04):
part of delivering a messagefor marketing purposes.
Carl Richards (10:08):
It's an uncomfortable place to be
sometimes.
Anyways, I mean most people Ithink it's like I don't know
know 12 of the population iscomfortable with public speaking
, standing on a stage orspeaking in front of a
microphone.
Guillaume Wiatr (10:20):
The rest are I read some stats more, like one,
like five percent, but yeah, Iagree with you.
Carl Richards (10:26):
so I'm in the five percent.
That doesn't mind doing it,although I stuttered when I was
a kid that's in the earlierpodcast, when we merged our two
podcasts together.
But back in the early days oneof the things I talked about was
that process of deathly afraidstage fright.
It was just debilitating,especially as a young lad.
But now I embrace it full onand I don't even think twice
(10:50):
about it.
If there's an opportunity tospeak if, for example, if I'm at
a networking setting and thespeaker is late or they're sick
or whatever I'll put up my hands.
I'll talk for five minutes.
That's all I get.
I'll say, okay, toastmasterstraining has been good for that
to really locate my messaging,but it's like five minutes I can
do it.
But I'm really glad that youshared that.
I want to get to the examples,but just before you do that and
(11:13):
maybe this will lead into theexamples you mentioned something
interesting when you said it'snot for everyone, and I think
you explained the why or whoit's good for, and maybe the
examples that you're going togive will help to solidify that
a little bit more.
But is there a reason whyeveryone can't or shouldn't or
doesn't embrace this?
Guillaume Wiatr (11:31):
It requires to let go of a lot of preconceived
ideas, requires to let go of thepreconceived ideas that you
know ahead of time exactly whatmarketing works for people that
you know it will take a lotfaster than you think.
So, in other words,subsequently it requires courage
(11:51):
to approach this technique withthe mindset of all I know is
that I know nothing.
You know from the famousphilosophers, right?
So it's like kind of exploring,exploring in your marketing
what might be some, somethoughts that are meaningful to
people and meaningful to you,and so it's going to require
quite a bit of emotional laborto execute, such as being able
(12:15):
to email.
So, yes, it does lead into somepractical examples.
So one of the things that Ihave done for many, many years
it's to email at a highfrequency your thoughts of the
day, or vlog, you know videoblog, which I do now five days a
week, almost five days a weekon YouTube, and considering that
(12:35):
your marketing initially arejust a bunch of seed ideas that
you plant and you disseminatearound you and you see what
resonates with your audience,and then you will dabble down
and continue to repeat yourselfand invest on the ideas that
will be interesting to structurebecause your audience wants to
hear more about them.
(12:56):
So that's why it's not foreveryone it's.
You know, a lot of people can'taccept that.
They want to do marketing thatis a lot more, a lot less
organic.
But in my approach, which is,at the core, based on
authenticity, we take the timeto first align with our audience
.
That's a key, key thing,especially for people who run
(13:19):
companies that are based onknowledge and expertise and who
see themselves running thosebusinesses or being part of
those businesses for a long timeand they're really passionate
about the expertise they deliver.
That's the time of marketingthat aligns typically a lot
better with their values, withtheir values.
Carl Richards (13:38):
Shouldn't that be a given for any business or
organization, though, you shouldbe aligning with your audience.
Guillaume Wiatr (13:44):
Otherwise, if you're not in alignment, you're
not connecting it should, carl,but there's a difference between
what people need and whatpeople want, and you and I are
communications and marketing.
We're experts, some peoplewould say, and experts are very
good at figuring out what peopleneed, but not always what
people want, and that's why Isay that's not necessarily what
(14:07):
you will want.
If you're considering doingmarketing, or if you're working
with a marketing department orbuilding one or any, you know,
any connection you have with my,that's not probably not what
you will want, right?
You will probably want the fastroi creek recipes and uh, yeah,
oh yeah, let's, let's, let'sbuy this ai robots that is going
to connect me with 10 000people a month who, by the way,
(14:30):
don't care about what you haveto say, but that's okay, I get
the number number.
So and I'm mentioning thisbecause that's also what I did,
carl Several years ago somebodyapproached me to bolt on this
robot on my LinkedIn profile andit was a very compelling
proposition, and I ended up withso many connections that, on
appearance, were great.
(14:52):
I was so excited People couldcare less, like no one could
care really about what I'd say.
So I scratched that.
I deleted thousands ofconnections on LinkedIn and now
I actually cap it to 1000 onpurpose, because I really
believe in the power of thosemeaningful connections.
Everyone in my network I know,I know what they do, I can
message them and therefore I canrun ideas by them.
(15:14):
I can test things.
I can message them andtherefore I can run ideas by
them.
I can test things, I can helpthem.
Hence why I have a thrivingbusiness, because it's really
built on that idea that mymarketing has to be meaningful.
First.
Carl Richards (15:24):
I have to, as you say, alignment with your
audience first, andrelationships are easier to
manage when you don't have 11billion connections and you've
only got, I mean, a thousand isstill a very robust number.
You might not know everybody Atthe same level, for sure, but
you certainly have a strongerconnection with that thousand
(15:46):
than somebody that has 50,000connections and it's just
another tick on the box on youremail list or something that is
getting out there.
So I'm going to actually dothat now.
Go through my contacts,especially on my social media
platform, actually the otherplatform, facebook.
Facebook, yeah, send me thelove letter, the love message.
(16:09):
What do they say?
You're nearing your 5,000connections.
Delete some people if you wantto add more, and I'm like wait a
minute, how did I get to 5,000?
Who have I added?
And there's probably hundredsthat I've never said anything to
and have connected with forwhatever reason at the time.
So good to note that.
There's something that I wantedto mention, though, because,
(16:31):
before we give some examples, ifyou do want to do that email
marketing, daily messages orthings that you're sending out
For some people I was actuallychatting with a colleague this
week about email marketing andwhat's the sweet spot for
sending out enough or not enough, or too many because they cited
that, oh, I get so many ofthose and I don't delete them,
(16:51):
but I should, or I shouldunsubscribe and I'm like, well,
here's the thing, the differenceis there's, or there is a
difference, rather, betweenemail messaging that it's all
about pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, sell, sell, sell
, sell, sell Versus.
I think the example you gavewas like meaningful messages or
video or vlogs or whatever thatare being shared, that have a
defined purpose.
Guillaume Wiatr (17:12):
My journey in email marketing or in email
marketing, started many yearsago and first I wanted to,
because I'm not a native Englishspeaker.
I wanted to.
I hired the help of a writer,so I delegated, so I tried the
delegation path.
It didn't work out with mebecause it was very slow, very
costly.
In the end it was not exactlythe voice tone that I wanted,
(17:33):
although the writer was veryskilled.
Then I went all.
In the end it was not exactlythe voice tone that I wanted,
although the writer was veryskilled.
Then I went all the in theopposite direction.
I started to email directlymyself for seven days, seven
days a week, and I did this forone year.
It's a style that is that isvery powerful.
A lot, of, a lot of otherthought leaders you know seth
godin in marketing, if you know,if you know seth godin does it.
He's done, he's been doing itfor 15 or 20 plus years now.
(17:55):
Jonathan Stark is anotherexample.
So that's another style that Iexperimented with and what it
did for me is that it reallyshed a lot of shallow thinking.
In the first 50, you just saywhat kind of is standard?
And then you don't run out ofideas.
You're like, okay, what could Ipossibly write about then?
And that's when it gets reallyinteresting and valuable,
(18:16):
because you dig deeper and youstart taking risk in your ideas.
Maybe what I'm trying to say isthis other thing, but if I say
this it's going to be a littlecontroversial.
So when I went that route, Istarted to get a lot of really
interesting replies and my openrate started to actually grow.
Today I write anywhere betweenone and three times a week and
(18:39):
my open rate in my email list is52% on average.
On average, like if you get 15%, it's high.
My open rate is it's not a verybig list, but when people and
the feedback I got is like whenI read your emails, I'm
wondering how you got toactually read my mind the night
before.
How did you do that?
Like it's exactly in words whatI was thinking the day before.
(19:00):
Of course, you know the topichappened to be the right one,
but that's what I've been bymeaningful marketing.
So you can do that throughemail, which is the platform I
highly recommend.
Today.
There are things like Substackthat will accelerate the process
, so it's also a very goodplatform Easier, you know, more
user-friendly than otherplatforms and maybe social
(19:21):
oriented.
So there's that option too.
But you can also do that withvideo and interestingly so I
started doing similar patternson video in 2022.
And what's really cool aboutthe video process is that if you
post your marketing, your ideas, on YouTube now it's literally
in minutes you get atranscription of what you just
(19:42):
said.
You can get that transcription,you can look at it and you can
tweak it and you can improve onit right, and so you can turn
and reuse that transcript into ablog article or LinkedIn
message or a tweet, or and youcan I mean the possibilities are
just endless.
So all of those now technologypossibilities just just make for
(20:03):
even stronger case formeaningful, meaningful marketing
.
Carl Richards (20:06):
I feel like Plus, we've discovered that those
transcripts are fantastic whenpositioned properly, of course,
with your messaging for SEO.
Like SEO, because everyonetalks.
Guillaume Wiatr (20:18):
SEO, SEO, SEO.
Carl Richards (20:19):
But it's very important to have your messaging
.
Your messaging needs to beclear, but it needs to cut
through the other noise thathappens to be out there, and
there's such a litany of it outthere.
Guillaume Wiatr (20:30):
So, yeah, I would agree with that, Carl.
Carl Richards (20:33):
Any other examples that you wanted to give
about meaningful marketing?
I have one more question I wantto ask you.
Sure, I want to give you someopportunity to share some of
those other examples, if youhave any.
Guillaume Wiatr (20:44):
Yeah, another practice I have and I actually
helped some of my clients nowstart is live webinars Free to
attend, paid recording webinars.
So here's the detail that isvery important.
When people think about awebinar, they think, oh yeah,
I'm going to go to this thing,I'm going to learn a few things,
but mostly it's going to be abad sales pitch.
But that's okay, I can get therecording after and if I miss
(21:07):
the session, it's all right,I'll just get the recording and
just fast forward to the partsthat I want, because session
it's all right, I'll just getthe recording and just fast
forward to the parts that I want.
Because, let's face it, I don'tknow about you and your
experience, car, but in myexperience I've been on webinar
participating with you for likeover 20 years and the ratio of
content to to to chat chat isvery, very low.
I see my recommendations to dowebinar very differently.
(21:28):
First of all, invite people andtell them they won't be a
recording, or you can get therecording but you will have to
pay for it, say $100.
So what's going to happen isthat people are going to show up
and only the motivated peoplewill show up, the people for
which the topic is guess whatMeaningful.
Oh, now we circle back and thenin that webinar, oh, now we
(21:49):
circle back and then in thatwebinar, reduce your sales pitch
to maybe the last 10 to fiveminutes.
And that's actually.
I found in my experience thatthat's a question people want to
know.
Like I love your ideas, loveyour framework, love your
product, love your service, howdo I buy it, how do I work with
it?
So don't skip that part.
Don't skip that part, but justdo it at the end, you know
(22:11):
properly, without a pushy salespitch, and invite people to just
a delightful, immersive,insightful conversation.
This will have so much moreimpact.
You will see your leads justflourish by themselves because
people will really understandwhat you're trying to get at and
just really want to buy fromyou for the right reasons
(22:31):
instead of a fake one.
Carl Richards (22:33):
That's a really good one.
I actually made a note of that,either as a follow-up after
we're finished the recording, oras a.
I'm going to try that see howthat works and, by the way, I
suspect a similar.
Maybe it has to be altered alittle bit for the type of
medium, but that type of conceptwould probably also work well
(22:54):
for a podcast episode, becausethere are some podcast episodes
that you tune into that you knowit's a pitch fairly
consistently every single week.
It's a pitch towards this orthat or whatever else, as
opposed to and I know it's alittle bit of a different
platform, but I like that ideathat way that you're inviting
people providing the recording,but there is no recording.
I do want to ask this question,though, and if you don't have
(23:19):
an answer, that's fine, but ifyou have some ideas or some even
opinions, we'll give you youropinion.
We'll let you stand on asoapbox and share that.
How is AI affecting the worldof marketing and what you share
and what you do?
Guillaume Wiatr (23:29):
I'm surprised this is still a question, but
it's a really good question.
It's completely transforming it.
It's completely transforming it.
If you're in marketing andyou're not using AI, you're not
going to be replaced by AI.
You're going to be replaced bysomeone who uses AI.
It has completely transformed,in good ways and in bad ways.
See, I'm a musician and I playthe keyboards.
(23:51):
I was born in the early 70s andI was young enough to remember
the emergence of synthesizers inmusic.
Right, and I don't know if youwork from we are almost the same
age but people from ourgeneration will probably
remember that there is a lot ofbands that use synthesizers in a
really bad way, and now you cango actually you can go on
(24:14):
YouTube and find those old 70s,80s songs with synthesizers and
there are some really cheesystuff.
Like, you would look at thisand burst laughing.
But some bands also usesynthesizers in a really good
way, in a very, very.
I'm thinking about GiorgioMoroder, who recorded with Daft
Punk in the mid-2010s the authorof Midnight Express, you know a
(24:37):
movie from the 70s and really,really understood the essence of
the synthesizer and it'severgreen.
His stuff is still.
So we're seeing the same thingwith AI in marketing.
You've got horrible stuff andyou have a minority of people
who are smart enough tounderstand that AI should not
(24:58):
replace you, but compliment youand make you smarter right.
So that's what I lean into inmy.
I use AI every day, all thetime, carl, but I don't make AI
right for me.
I use AI to make me smarter, tomake me more creative, to
challenge me.
I ask AI hey, I'm trying towrite this.
(25:19):
Are there any other ways youwould say this?
What am I missing?
And I disagree with the AI alot of the time, and the answers
are a lot of the time dumb, butsomehow, somewhere I managed to
find the nugget that I wasdreaming of finding, that I
couldn't find by myself.
Does it answer the question?
Carl Richards (25:38):
Totally 100%, and I couldn't agree more.
I know there's a lot of feararound AI.
How many jobs is it going toreplace, and I understand that.
But, as you've alreadyindicated, it's not the AI
itself that's going to replacethe jobs.
It's how we use it, how weembrace it.
We use AI all the time too.
(25:59):
I mean we would be idiots notto use it because there's so
many great tools that podcastersand marketing agencies like
ours can use to just enhance thefinal product.
So clients love us all the timeand we can't say sorry, can't
make it sound any better or lookany better, because we don't
have those tools.
Well, now we do have all ofthose tools right at our
fingertips.
Guillaume Wiatr (26:19):
Yeah, and can I share an example?
I think right now I was onpodcast a great conversation, by
the way and the host decided torun the podcast with this AI
tool that grabs segments of itand will spit out 15 to 20
segments with the littlesubtitles, and he started
posting these.
And I reached out and say, areyou doing these with AI?
(26:41):
And he's like, yeah, yeah, I'mdoing these.
I think the bot is not smartenough to really pick up the
coolest part of our conversation.
So I went to the recording andI say, in my opinion, here are
the things that are really muchbetter.
So I don't think the robots arethere yet on that particular
one, I think they're still toodumb, it's true, I heard it.
Carl Richards (27:01):
Well, it's funny because two weeks ago I heard it
referred to as not artificialintelligence, but augmented
intelligence.
You still need to be able to ohyeah, put things into it, all
kinds of things that right andyou can't just put it on
autopilot and expect it to knowwhat to do.
It might know mathematicallywhat, yeah, but it might not it
(27:23):
doesn't have the same yet.
Yet I'll say yet.
It doesn't have the emotion, itdoesn't know what to go and get
yes, exactly, I'm learningsomething interesting here with
you.
Guillaume Wiatr (27:33):
Carl is like the yeah probably.
Carl Richards (27:35):
What I'm just trying to describe is augmented
versus yeah, yeah this has beena great conversation and, by the
way, uh, your comment aboutsynthesizers, spot on there.
The other one that comes tomind, that used it very well,
alan Parsons.
Oh yeah.
Yes, oh, I love Alan ParsonsTotally well, I'll play,
(27:57):
especially live, if you've everseen any live videos of Alan
Parsons, but even the recordedversions are phenomenal.
But definitely knew how to PinkFloyd also.
Guillaume Wiatr (28:08):
Yeah.
Carl Richards (28:09):
Floyd's a good one too.
Guillaume Wiatr (28:10):
Yeah.
Carl Richards (28:10):
I'll give you that one.
I'll give you that one.
Oh my goodness, Guillaume, thishas been a fantastic
conversation.
What would you like to passalong to our audience?
Do you have a gift, a template,anything you'd like to share
with them?
Guillaume Wiatr (28:20):
Yeah, if this conversation made you curious,
go to my website, metahelmcom,and there is a simple exercise
you can do that way, whichthrough which I learned people
say they learned a lot.
It's an assessment.
It's just 12 questions and yougo there and it's fairly, fairly
fast and it will help you get asense for how authentic you're
(28:41):
currently or meaningful you'redeveloping your business.
It covers more areas thanmarketing.
It covers leadership, it coverssales, it covers operations, so
it's a more holistic thing.
But I invite people to just gothere, take that assessment.
Typically, I get an email whenpeople get it and I'll offer
this, for, if you're listeningto Carl's podcast today, I will
(29:04):
respond personally to yourassessment and I will offer a 30
minutes conversation duringwhich we can expand on the
assessments and whateverquestion you may have.
I guarantee this will not be abad sales pitch.
It will be a true conversationabout you.
That's my offer, carl.
Carl Richards (29:22):
I love it.
Thanks so much, Guillaume.
Wow, what a fantastic offer,and I really appreciate you
sharing that.
So we'll make sure we'll makereference to that in the show
notes, where you'll find all ofGuillaume's information, his
links to social media which, bythe way, if you want to make the
short list, try connecting tohim, or at least connect
effectively.
It starts with a conversation,right, it starts with at least a
reach out.
Before I turn you awayGuillaume, Guillaume Wiatr has
(29:46):
been my guest today, so thankyou so much, but before I turn
you loose, a final thought.
Guillaume Wiatr (29:49):
My thought will go to the risk takers, the
people.
I mean you're one, I'm a littlebit of a different animal or
crazy, or I bring in ideas thatsound a little weird, and so
keep being that person.
That goes to you, Carl, andwhoever you are here.
If you're listening on thispodcast and you feel like you're
a little bit of the anomaly,it's okay to be the anomaly and
(30:12):
be who you are and go createwhat you want to create.
Carl Richards (30:16):
I love it.
That's a great place to leaveit, Guillaume Wiatr a meaningful
conversation about meaningfulmarketing.
Thank you so much for being myguest today.
My pleasure, carl, it was ablast.
And thank you for joining ustoday.
Special thanks to our producerand production Dom Carrillo, our
music guru, Nathan Simon, andthe person who works the arms
all of our arms, actually mytrusty assistant, stephanie
(30:42):
Gafoor.
If you like what you heard today, leave us a comment and a
review and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email.
Askcarl at carlspeaksca.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes, and if you're
(31:03):
ready to take the plunge andjoin the over 3 million people
who have said yes to podcasting,let's have a conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time.
Welcome to Communication Connection
Community the podcaster'spodcast.
This podcast takes a deep diveinto modern day communication
strategies in the podcastingspace.
We chat with interesting peoplewho make the podcasting and
speaking spaces exciting andvibrant.
We also dive into thepodcasting community with news
(00:24):
updates, latest trends andtopics from this ever-evolving
space.
So strap in, it's going to beone amazing ride.
Let's dive into today's episode,and today on the podcast, we're
talking about marketing.
Now, by design, a podcast is amarketing tool.
We're going to take a deeperdive into marketing, though,
because there are many aspectsabout the marketing piece not
(00:47):
just for podcasting, butmarketing in general that we
really need to be cognizant of,and I don't think that, as
entrepreneurs and businessowners, that we're always doing
our due diligence in this spaceand I'll admit that sometimes I
don't either so who better tobring in a guest that can talk
about it, who spent a lot oftime in this space?
Guillaume W is the creator ofStrategic Narrative, the
(01:11):
business strategy consulting andcoaching methodology for
entrepreneurial leaders ofprofessional services firms.
Through his company, MetaHelm,he steers experts, CEOs and
leadership teams to buildingsuccessful businesses.
They also love, by growingnarrative power, the leadership
ability to defy the normal whenthe normal is wrong.
His expertise is sought byclients ranging from
(01:33):
solopreneurs to globalorganizations such as Microsoft,
Spencer Stewart, AIG, Simriseand the Gates Foundation, and
many more, and I'm so thrilledto be chatting with him today.
Guillaume, welcome to thepodcast.
Guillaume Wiatr (01:47):
Carl, it's good to be here.
It's very, very good to be here.
Carl Richards (01:50):
I'm so glad you said yes, or I said yes.
One or the other Somebody saidyes.
I guess we both have said yesat some point to having this
conversation, and I'm glad thatwe can do this.
I'd like to start bycongratulating you because, as a
marketing tool if I could juststart here you've done something
that a lot of podcasters don'tdo and that you've spent I think
you said you spent a year and ahalf, or maybe even longer,
(02:10):
doing guesting on other people'sshows, which I'm assuming was
not just for the good of yourhealth.
I'm assuming it was formarketing or to get the
messaging out that you like toshare with audiences.
Guillaume Wiatr (02:21):
Yeah, I did it.
For two plus years I've been aguest on 55 podcast shows and
initially my.
The reason why I wanted to dothis is because I wanted to gain
visibility as a thought leaderand a business owner and very
quickly also was reminded thatit's really about connections,
also about practicing andexploring your thinking, your
(02:46):
message, as a lot of people do.
And I found a lot of meaning inthis activity and I'm glad I
didn't jump into podcast hostingtoo quickly.
Look for some people'sstandards.
They would say, okay, it'sreally really slow.
It takes you two years todecide if you want to do your
podcast.
But yeah, it became kind of arecon kind of exercise.
But I made so many greatconnections too, a lot of layers
(03:08):
of values in that exercise.
I'm so glad I did it because Ilearned a lot.
I met some wonderful people,got through super cool processes
as far as how to onboard apodcast guest, but also some bad
ones I mean some that I wouldlabel as bad ones.
My experience wasn't great andit's too bad because doing a
(03:28):
podcast meaningfully is a lot ofwork.
I know your podcast, carl, is alot of work and for a guest you
know a serious guest.
It's also should be also a lotof work, like when I before I
get on a show if I don't knowthe person yet.
You know I spend a few weekslistening to the show when I
have a chance, taking notes andso on.
Carl Richards (03:48):
Well, congratulations, as I said, for
taking that step, that, as yousaid, a lot of people don't do
that, and you're right, there'sgood onboarding processes and
there's some not so goodonboarding processes.
Hopefully, this one has beenpretty good.
I mean, I know off microphone.
(04:09):
You asked me some questions andI tend to have a very relaxed,
laid back approach and I like tohave organic conversations as
opposed to coming in with alitany of questions.
That and this, is always mycaution, because in some cases,
I don't know the guest, I didn'tknow you, but until we chatted.
But we now have, we've chatted,we've connected on LinkedIn and
some other social platforms, Ifeel like, and we're almost the
same age, so I feel like we'rebrothers, right, just different
mothers, but I feel like thatwe're very, we're kindred
(04:35):
spirits, right, I agree.
I think you hit the nail righton the head, though, when you
said that there's due diligence,that it doesn't matter what
space you're in, whether it'sthe podcasting space, whether
it's whatever level of businessor wherever you're at.
There's some things that youshould be doing about the
connection, because theconnection leads to the
relationships that you're goingto build, which leads hopefully
leads to clients and even deepernurtured relationships.
(04:56):
So today, I do want to talkabout, though, what you peg as
meaningful marketing, so I'mgoing to give you the platform
to firstly start off by tellingme, in your words I mean, what
do you mean by meaningfulmarketing?
What?
Guillaume Wiatr (05:09):
is it?
For me, meaningful marketing isthe type of marketing that
creates equally value for theworld outside your prospect,
your market, your clients butalso for you.
It's really the process ofcreating and sharing material
that deeply resonates with youraudience.
A process of creating andsharing material that deeply
resonates with your audience,but also that is helping you
explore, clarify and articulateyour thoughts in a new way.
(05:31):
You're using marketing in thatcontext as a way to find what's
possible out there.
I think it's a very interestingproposition because a lot of
people you know, approachmarketing with the belief that
they know already what theirmessage is.
You know, and I have workedwith a lot of writers and
coaches and you know on thecommunication space who were
(05:52):
like, okay, great, we're goingto do this, fantastic, I mean,
what's your message?
And I, well, I'm still workingon it and, let's be honest, we
are all working on our messageall the time for the rest of our
life.
To me, your message issomething that evolved and
should evolve.
It takes a lifetime, you know,for some really, you know
(06:17):
notorious thought leader to justreally arrive at a spot where
they finally get the level ofclarity they're hoping for.
So this approach, you know thatI describe as meaningful public
.
You know meaningful marketingor publication.
Sometimes I say publication.
It's really an approach thatemphasizes genuine
self-expression and personalgrowth and connection with your
audience.
It's not for everyone.
(06:38):
It requires you to be okay tofail and learn.
It's probably an approach thatwill work well with people who
are already interested or opento concepts like prototyping or
agility.
It is also an approach that Ialways recommend to align with
(06:59):
smaller budgets.
You know you want to be lowbudget on purpose scrappy in the
initial phases so that youdon't get too attached to the
results.
Because one of the biggestproblems I see with my clients
as a business coach is they wantto dive in and get immediately
the $50,000 or $100,000marketing campaign without
(07:21):
having done any tests andtherefore they get on that
process.
But if it doesn't yield theresults or if the process is not
the right one, they stillpursue it because they're too
attached to the outcome, becausethey've paid a lot of money.
So that's at a high level.
You know some of the principlesthat I recommend following.
You know, to do meaningfulmarketing.
Carl Richards (07:40):
There's a few things I want to unpack there
and thank you so much for thatin-depth answer, because I think
that having that foundationcertainly will help us with the
conversation, but I think it'sgood for people going in to know
what is this, and I can givesome examples and specifics and
how I practice it too, if youwill.
(08:00):
Yeah, I'll do it in a minutewith that one.
I want to get back to thisconcept, though, because you
mentioned something that I havebeen advocating since years ago,
when I was in Toastmasters.
Every now and again, you wouldhave somebody in the
organization who would say I'vegot a great title for a speech
Fantastic, what's it about?
What's your talk about?
(08:21):
I don't know.
I haven't written the talk yet,so that goes back to something
that you said about.
You know what's the messaging,and you know messaging needs to
be clear, but if you're startingat the wrong spot, or if you,
you might have the greatesttitle in the world, but if your
messaging is an absolute trainwreck, it's not going to get you
the result you want, and youneed to be clear about what your
messaging is going to be inspeakers, podcasters, coaches
(08:43):
who are going, anyone that'sgoing out there and speaking
about what it is that they dowhich, by the way, as a former
speaker, trainer, should beeveryone in business, and I'm
assuming you agree with me.
It should be a tool that youuse all the time, but it seems
to be a piece that gets missed.
Guillaume Wiatr (08:59):
Yeah, a lot of people want to over-invest in
the thinking part of the processand I think that my approach to
this, my philosophy, is youdiscover what you really meant
to say after you've deliveredthe talk sometimes, actually,
I'm working with a client rightnow and he's launching a new
business and I have a frameworkthat I call strategic narrative
(09:22):
and it's built with four keystories.
They're typically they'renotorious stories and he
prepared ideas and wrote stuffdown and then, when I asked him
to walk through what he wantedto say it was, he told me well,
I guess it's completelydifferent from what I intended
to do, and he felt bad.
He felt like, oh my gosh, it'sreally you know.
(09:43):
I see I'm unclear, I don't knowwhat I want to say, and I
reassured him and say this is anormal process.
This is everybody has to gothrough this, and the faster you
go through this, the faster youembrace it and the faster you
make yourself okay with thediscomfort of not knowing what
to do in the first place, thefaster you get to the meaningful
(10:04):
part of delivering a messagefor marketing purposes.
Carl Richards (10:08):
It's an uncomfortable place to be
sometimes.
Anyways, I mean most people Ithink it's like I don't know
know 12 of the population iscomfortable with public speaking
, standing on a stage orspeaking in front of a
microphone.
Guillaume Wiatr (10:20):
The rest are I read some stats more, like one,
like five percent, but yeah, Iagree with you.
Carl Richards (10:26):
so I'm in the five percent.
That doesn't mind doing it,although I stuttered when I was
a kid that's in the earlierpodcast, when we merged our two
podcasts together.
But back in the early days oneof the things I talked about was
that process of deathly afraidstage fright.
It was just debilitating,especially as a young lad.
But now I embrace it full onand I don't even think twice
(10:50):
about it.
If there's an opportunity tospeak if, for example, if I'm at
a networking setting and thespeaker is late or they're sick
or whatever I'll put up my hands.
I'll talk for five minutes.
That's all I get.
I'll say, okay, toastmasterstraining has been good for that
to really locate my messaging,but it's like five minutes I can
do it.
But I'm really glad that youshared that.
I want to get to the examples,but just before you do that and
(11:13):
maybe this will lead into theexamples you mentioned something
interesting when you said it'snot for everyone, and I think
you explained the why or whoit's good for, and maybe the
examples that you're going togive will help to solidify that
a little bit more.
But is there a reason whyeveryone can't or shouldn't or
doesn't embrace this?
Guillaume Wiatr (11:31):
It requires to let go of a lot of preconceived
ideas, requires to let go of thepreconceived ideas that you
know ahead of time exactly whatmarketing works for people that
you know it will take a lotfaster than you think.
So, in other words,subsequently it requires courage
(11:51):
to approach this technique withthe mindset of all I know is
that I know nothing.
You know from the famousphilosophers, right?
So it's like kind of exploring,exploring in your marketing
what might be some, somethoughts that are meaningful to
people and meaningful to you,and so it's going to require
quite a bit of emotional laborto execute, such as being able
(12:15):
to email.
So, yes, it does lead into somepractical examples.
So one of the things that Ihave done for many, many years
it's to email at a highfrequency your thoughts of the
day, or vlog, you know videoblog, which I do now five days a
week, almost five days a weekon YouTube, and considering that
(12:35):
your marketing initially arejust a bunch of seed ideas that
you plant and you disseminatearound you and you see what
resonates with your audience,and then you will dabble down
and continue to repeat yourselfand invest on the ideas that
will be interesting to structurebecause your audience wants to
hear more about them.
(12:56):
So that's why it's not foreveryone it's.
You know, a lot of people can'taccept that.
They want to do marketing thatis a lot more, a lot less
organic.
But in my approach, which is,at the core, based on
authenticity, we take the timeto first align with our audience
.
That's a key, key thing,especially for people who run
(13:19):
companies that are based onknowledge and expertise and who
see themselves running thosebusinesses or being part of
those businesses for a long timeand they're really passionate
about the expertise they deliver.
That's the time of marketingthat aligns typically a lot
better with their values, withtheir values.
Carl Richards (13:38):
Shouldn't that be a given for any business or
organization, though, you shouldbe aligning with your audience.
Guillaume Wiatr (13:44):
Otherwise, if you're not in alignment, you're
not connecting it should, carl,but there's a difference between
what people need and whatpeople want, and you and I are
communications and marketing.
We're experts, some peoplewould say, and experts are very
good at figuring out what peopleneed, but not always what
people want, and that's why Isay that's not necessarily what
(14:07):
you will want.
If you're considering doingmarketing, or if you're working
with a marketing department orbuilding one or any, you know,
any connection you have with my,that's not probably not what
you will want, right?
You will probably want the fastroi creek recipes and uh, yeah,
oh yeah, let's, let's, let'sbuy this ai robots that is going
to connect me with 10 000people a month who, by the way,
(14:30):
don't care about what you haveto say, but that's okay, I get
the number number.
So and I'm mentioning thisbecause that's also what I did,
carl Several years ago somebodyapproached me to bolt on this
robot on my LinkedIn profile andit was a very compelling
proposition, and I ended up withso many connections that, on
appearance, were great.
(14:52):
I was so excited People couldcare less, like no one could
care really about what I'd say.
So I scratched that.
I deleted thousands ofconnections on LinkedIn and now
I actually cap it to 1000 onpurpose, because I really
believe in the power of thosemeaningful connections.
Everyone in my network I know,I know what they do, I can
message them and therefore I canrun ideas by them.
(15:14):
I can test things.
I can message them andtherefore I can run ideas by
them.
I can test things, I can helpthem.
Hence why I have a thrivingbusiness, because it's really
built on that idea that mymarketing has to be meaningful.
First.
Carl Richards (15:24):
I have to, as you say, alignment with your
audience first, andrelationships are easier to
manage when you don't have 11billion connections and you've
only got, I mean, a thousand isstill a very robust number.
You might not know everybody Atthe same level, for sure, but
you certainly have a strongerconnection with that thousand
(15:46):
than somebody that has 50,000connections and it's just
another tick on the box on youremail list or something that is
getting out there.
So I'm going to actually dothat now.
Go through my contacts,especially on my social media
platform, actually the otherplatform, facebook.
Facebook, yeah, send me thelove letter, the love message.
(16:09):
What do they say?
You're nearing your 5,000connections.
Delete some people if you wantto add more, and I'm like wait a
minute, how did I get to 5,000?
Who have I added?
And there's probably hundredsthat I've never said anything to
and have connected with forwhatever reason at the time.
So good to note that.
There's something that I wantedto mention, though, because,
(16:31):
before we give some examples, ifyou do want to do that email
marketing, daily messages orthings that you're sending out
For some people I was actuallychatting with a colleague this
week about email marketing andwhat's the sweet spot for
sending out enough or not enough, or too many because they cited
that, oh, I get so many ofthose and I don't delete them,
(16:51):
but I should, or I shouldunsubscribe and I'm like, well,
here's the thing, the differenceis there's, or there is a
difference, rather, betweenemail messaging that it's all
about pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, pitch, sell, sell, sell
, sell, sell Versus.
I think the example you gavewas like meaningful messages or
video or vlogs or whatever thatare being shared, that have a
defined purpose.
Guillaume Wiatr (17:12):
My journey in email marketing or in email
marketing, started many yearsago and first I wanted to,
because I'm not a native Englishspeaker.
I wanted to.
I hired the help of a writer,so I delegated, so I tried the
delegation path.
It didn't work out with mebecause it was very slow, very
costly.
In the end it was not exactlythe voice tone that I wanted,
(17:33):
although the writer was veryskilled.
Then I went all.
In the end it was not exactlythe voice tone that I wanted,
although the writer was veryskilled.
Then I went all the in theopposite direction.
I started to email directlymyself for seven days, seven
days a week, and I did this forone year.
It's a style that is that isvery powerful.
A lot, of, a lot of otherthought leaders you know seth
godin in marketing, if you know,if you know seth godin does it.
He's done, he's been doing itfor 15 or 20 plus years now.
(17:55):
Jonathan Stark is anotherexample.
So that's another style that Iexperimented with and what it
did for me is that it reallyshed a lot of shallow thinking.
In the first 50, you just saywhat kind of is standard?
And then you don't run out ofideas.
You're like, okay, what could Ipossibly write about then?
And that's when it gets reallyinteresting and valuable,
(18:16):
because you dig deeper and youstart taking risk in your ideas.
Maybe what I'm trying to say isthis other thing, but if I say
this it's going to be a littlecontroversial.
So when I went that route, Istarted to get a lot of really
interesting replies and my openrate started to actually grow.
Today I write anywhere betweenone and three times a week and
(18:39):
my open rate in my email list is52% on average.
On average, like if you get 15%, it's high.
My open rate is it's not a verybig list, but when people and
the feedback I got is like whenI read your emails, I'm
wondering how you got toactually read my mind the night
before.
How did you do that?
Like it's exactly in words whatI was thinking the day before.
(19:00):
Of course, you know the topichappened to be the right one,
but that's what I've been bymeaningful marketing.
So you can do that throughemail, which is the platform I
highly recommend.
Today.
There are things like Substackthat will accelerate the process
, so it's also a very goodplatform Easier, you know, more
user-friendly than otherplatforms and maybe social
(19:21):
oriented.
So there's that option too.
But you can also do that withvideo and interestingly so I
started doing similar patternson video in 2022.
And what's really cool aboutthe video process is that if you
post your marketing, your ideas, on YouTube now it's literally
in minutes you get atranscription of what you just
(19:42):
said.
You can get that transcription,you can look at it and you can
tweak it and you can improve onit right, and so you can turn
and reuse that transcript into ablog article or LinkedIn
message or a tweet, or and youcan I mean the possibilities are
just endless.
So all of those now technologypossibilities just just make for
(20:03):
even stronger case formeaningful, meaningful marketing
.
Carl Richards (20:06):
I feel like Plus, we've discovered that those
transcripts are fantastic whenpositioned properly, of course,
with your messaging for SEO.
Like SEO, because everyonetalks.
Guillaume Wiatr (20:18):
SEO, SEO, SEO.
Carl Richards (20:19):
But it's very important to have your messaging
.
Your messaging needs to beclear, but it needs to cut
through the other noise thathappens to be out there, and
there's such a litany of it outthere.
Guillaume Wiatr (20:30):
So, yeah, I would agree with that, Carl.
Carl Richards (20:33):
Any other examples that you wanted to give
about meaningful marketing?
I have one more question I wantto ask you.
Sure, I want to give you someopportunity to share some of
those other examples, if youhave any.
Guillaume Wiatr (20:44):
Yeah, another practice I have and I actually
helped some of my clients nowstart is live webinars Free to
attend, paid recording webinars.
So here's the detail that isvery important.
When people think about awebinar, they think, oh yeah,
I'm going to go to this thing,I'm going to learn a few things,
but mostly it's going to be abad sales pitch.
But that's okay, I can get therecording after and if I miss
(21:07):
the session, it's all right,I'll just get the recording and
just fast forward to the partsthat I want, because session
it's all right, I'll just getthe recording and just fast
forward to the parts that I want.
Because, let's face it, I don'tknow about you and your
experience, car, but in myexperience I've been on webinar
participating with you for likeover 20 years and the ratio of
content to to to chat chat isvery, very low.
I see my recommendations to dowebinar very differently.
(21:28):
First of all, invite people andtell them they won't be a
recording, or you can get therecording but you will have to
pay for it, say $100.
So what's going to happen isthat people are going to show up
and only the motivated peoplewill show up, the people for
which the topic is guess whatMeaningful.
Oh, now we circle back and thenin that webinar, oh, now we
(21:49):
circle back and then in thatwebinar, reduce your sales pitch
to maybe the last 10 to fiveminutes.
And that's actually.
I found in my experience thatthat's a question people want to
know.
Like I love your ideas, loveyour framework, love your
product, love your service, howdo I buy it, how do I work with
it?
So don't skip that part.
Don't skip that part, but justdo it at the end, you know
(22:11):
properly, without a pushy salespitch, and invite people to just
a delightful, immersive,insightful conversation.
This will have so much moreimpact.
You will see your leads justflourish by themselves because
people will really understandwhat you're trying to get at and
just really want to buy fromyou for the right reasons
(22:31):
instead of a fake one.
Carl Richards (22:33):
That's a really good one.
I actually made a note of that,either as a follow-up after
we're finished the recording, oras a.
I'm going to try that see howthat works and, by the way, I
suspect a similar.
Maybe it has to be altered alittle bit for the type of
medium, but that type of conceptwould probably also work well
(22:54):
for a podcast episode, becausethere are some podcast episodes
that you tune into that you knowit's a pitch fairly
consistently every single week.
It's a pitch towards this orthat or whatever else, as
opposed to and I know it's alittle bit of a different
platform, but I like that ideathat way that you're inviting
people providing the recording,but there is no recording.
I do want to ask this question,though, and if you don't have
(23:19):
an answer, that's fine, but ifyou have some ideas or some even
opinions, we'll give you youropinion.
We'll let you stand on asoapbox and share that.
How is AI affecting the worldof marketing and what you share
and what you do?
Guillaume Wiatr (23:29):
I'm surprised this is still a question, but
it's a really good question.
It's completely transforming it.
It's completely transforming it.
If you're in marketing andyou're not using AI, you're not
going to be replaced by AI.
You're going to be replaced bysomeone who uses AI.
It has completely transformed,in good ways and in bad ways.
See, I'm a musician and I playthe keyboards.
(23:51):
I was born in the early 70s andI was young enough to remember
the emergence of synthesizers inmusic.
Right, and I don't know if youwork from we are almost the same
age but people from ourgeneration will probably
remember that there is a lot ofbands that use synthesizers in a
really bad way, and now you cango actually you can go on
(24:14):
YouTube and find those old 70s,80s songs with synthesizers and
there are some really cheesystuff.
Like, you would look at thisand burst laughing.
But some bands also usesynthesizers in a really good
way, in a very, very.
I'm thinking about GiorgioMoroder, who recorded with Daft
Punk in the mid-2010s the authorof Midnight Express, you know a
(24:37):
movie from the 70s and really,really understood the essence of
the synthesizer and it'severgreen.
His stuff is still.
So we're seeing the same thingwith AI in marketing.
You've got horrible stuff andyou have a minority of people
who are smart enough tounderstand that AI should not
(24:58):
replace you, but compliment youand make you smarter right.
So that's what I lean into inmy.
I use AI every day, all thetime, carl, but I don't make AI
right for me.
I use AI to make me smarter, tomake me more creative, to
challenge me.
I ask AI hey, I'm trying towrite this.
(25:19):
Are there any other ways youwould say this?
What am I missing?
And I disagree with the AI alot of the time, and the answers
are a lot of the time dumb, butsomehow, somewhere I managed to
find the nugget that I wasdreaming of finding, that I
couldn't find by myself.
Does it answer the question?
Carl Richards (25:38):
Totally 100%, and I couldn't agree more.
I know there's a lot of feararound AI.
How many jobs is it going toreplace, and I understand that.
But, as you've alreadyindicated, it's not the AI
itself that's going to replacethe jobs.
It's how we use it, how weembrace it.
We use AI all the time too.
(25:59):
I mean we would be idiots notto use it because there's so
many great tools that podcastersand marketing agencies like
ours can use to just enhance thefinal product.
So clients love us all the timeand we can't say sorry, can't
make it sound any better or lookany better, because we don't
have those tools.
Well, now we do have all ofthose tools right at our
fingertips.
Guillaume Wiatr (26:19):
Yeah, and can I share an example?
I think right now I was onpodcast a great conversation, by
the way and the host decided torun the podcast with this AI
tool that grabs segments of itand will spit out 15 to 20
segments with the littlesubtitles, and he started
posting these.
And I reached out and say, areyou doing these with AI?
(26:41):
And he's like, yeah, yeah, I'mdoing these.
I think the bot is not smartenough to really pick up the
coolest part of our conversation.
So I went to the recording andI say, in my opinion, here are
the things that are really muchbetter.
So I don't think the robots arethere yet on that particular
one, I think they're still toodumb, it's true, I heard it.
Carl Richards (27:01):
Well, it's funny because two weeks ago I heard it
referred to as not artificialintelligence, but augmented
intelligence.
You still need to be able to ohyeah, put things into it, all
kinds of things that right andyou can't just put it on
autopilot and expect it to knowwhat to do.
It might know mathematicallywhat, yeah, but it might not it
(27:23):
doesn't have the same yet.
Yet I'll say yet.
It doesn't have the emotion, itdoesn't know what to go and get
yes, exactly, I'm learningsomething interesting here with
you.
Guillaume Wiatr (27:33):
Carl is like the yeah probably.
Carl Richards (27:35):
What I'm just trying to describe is augmented
versus yeah, yeah this has beena great conversation and, by the
way, uh, your comment aboutsynthesizers, spot on there.
The other one that comes tomind, that used it very well,
alan Parsons.
Oh yeah.
Yes, oh, I love Alan ParsonsTotally well, I'll play,
(27:57):
especially live, if you've everseen any live videos of Alan
Parsons, but even the recordedversions are phenomenal.
But definitely knew how to PinkFloyd also.
Guillaume Wiatr (28:08):
Yeah.
Carl Richards (28:09):
Floyd's a good one too.
Guillaume Wiatr (28:10):
Yeah.
Carl Richards (28:10):
I'll give you that one.
I'll give you that one.
Oh my goodness, Guillaume, thishas been a fantastic
conversation.
What would you like to passalong to our audience?
Do you have a gift, a template,anything you'd like to share
with them?
Guillaume Wiatr (28:20):
Yeah, if this conversation made you curious,
go to my website, metahelmcom,and there is a simple exercise
you can do that way, whichthrough which I learned people
say they learned a lot.
It's an assessment.
It's just 12 questions and yougo there and it's fairly, fairly
fast and it will help you get asense for how authentic you're
(28:41):
currently or meaningful you'redeveloping your business.
It covers more areas thanmarketing.
It covers leadership, it coverssales, it covers operations, so
it's a more holistic thing.
But I invite people to just gothere, take that assessment.
Typically, I get an email whenpeople get it and I'll offer
this, for, if you're listeningto Carl's podcast today, I will
(29:04):
respond personally to yourassessment and I will offer a 30
minutes conversation duringwhich we can expand on the
assessments and whateverquestion you may have.
I guarantee this will not be abad sales pitch.
It will be a true conversationabout you.
That's my offer, carl.
Carl Richards (29:22):
I love it.
Thanks so much, Guillaume.
Wow, what a fantastic offer,and I really appreciate you
sharing that.
So we'll make sure we'll makereference to that in the show
notes, where you'll find all ofGuillaume's information, his
links to social media which, bythe way, if you want to make the
short list, try connecting tohim, or at least connect
effectively.
It starts with a conversation,right, it starts with at least a
reach out.
Before I turn you awayGuillaume, Guillaume Wiatr has
(29:46):
been my guest today, so thankyou so much, but before I turn
you loose, a final thought.
Guillaume Wiatr (29:49):
My thought will go to the risk takers, the
people.
I mean you're one, I'm a littlebit of a different animal or
crazy, or I bring in ideas thatsound a little weird, and so
keep being that person.
That goes to you, Carl, andwhoever you are here.
If you're listening on thispodcast and you feel like you're
a little bit of the anomaly,it's okay to be the anomaly and
(30:12):
be who you are and go createwhat you want to create.
Carl Richards (30:16):
I love it.
That's a great place to leaveit, Guillaume Wiatr a meaningful
conversation about meaningfulmarketing.
Thank you so much for being myguest today.
My pleasure, carl, it was ablast.
And thank you for joining ustoday.
Special thanks to our producerand production Dom Carrillo, our
music guru, Nathan Simon, andthe person who works the arms
all of our arms, actually mytrusty assistant, stephanie
(30:42):
Gafoor.
If you like what you heard today, leave us a comment and a
review and be sure to share itwith your friends.
If you don't like what youheard, please share it with your
enemies.
Oh, and if you have asuggestion of someone who you
think would make an amazingguest on the show, let us know
about it.
Drop us an email.
Askcarl at carlspeaksca.
Don't forget to follow us onLinkedIn and Twitter as well.
You'll find all those links inthe show notes, and if you're
(31:03):
ready to take the plunge andjoin the over 3 million people
who have said yes to podcasting,let's have a conversation.
We'll show you the simplest wayto get into the podcasting
space because, after all, we'repodcast solutions made simple.
We'll catch you next time.
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