May 11, 2025 • 29 mins
Geoff sits down with Adam and Nutter at the Deep Dish Swift 2025 conference for a discussion.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Geoff (00:02):
Hello, everyone. We are here live from the Deep Dish
SWIFT conference in Chicago,Illinois. I've got special
guests here, Adam Wolf and DaveNutter. Say hi, everybody.
Adam (00:13):
Hey, buddy. Excited to be here.
Geoff (00:15):
And so we're gonna give just a little bit of a mid
conference update on exactlywhat we're what we've seen here,
what we're doing here, and thekinds of things that we've seen
and enjoyed. So let's start withAdam. What is what is your
favorite thing at the conferencebeen so far, whether that's a
talk, a post event, anythinglike that? What what have you
(00:38):
seen so far?
Adam (00:39):
Okay. So I have two things. The first is bottomless
coffee. I was so excited
Geoff (00:47):
when I
Adam (00:47):
when I finally got here, and I could just refill my
coffee forever because the dayof my travel, I was underdosed
for sure on my caffeine. As faras talks, I've really enjoyed,
Jordan Morgan's talk. He Yep.We'll get into that later, but
he did one on marketing that Ithought was great. But,
(01:07):
honestly, there have been somany good talks.
Antoine VanderLeest talk wasgreat. Danielle Lewis had an
amazing talk. Allison McIntyrehad a great talk. Adam Schott,
like, there's been a lot. SoStuart Lynch, there's been, I
don't know, so many.
So I'm just happy to be herebecause I can't If you
Geoff (01:25):
name enough, you're gonna sound bad for the people you
didn't name.
Adam (01:27):
I know. Yeah.
Nutter (01:29):
Everybody except.
Adam (01:30):
Everybody except. Yeah. Yeah. So I should say so Michael
Flareup, Adam Shaw, StuartLynch, Jacob, Kijich. I I'm
sorry, Jacob.
Allison McEntire, AntoineVanderLee, Adrian Eves, Sima
Nourish, Danielle Lewis, JordanMorgan, Vidit Bhargava, Hide van
(01:54):
der Plug, and, Charlie Chapmanwith his whole podcast recording
is what we've seen so far.
Geoff (02:02):
Yep. Yep. Yeah. We we are recording this on the evening of
day two of the event, and, yeah,we have one more left to go
tomorrow. So, yeah, let's passit over to Nutter.
What have you what have you seenso far? Yeah. What's your
favorite thing?
Nutter (02:16):
This is my first attendance at Deep Dish. I've
been wanting to go for a verylong time, and so I've been
thoroughly enjoying theatmosphere, the camaraderie. The
Swift developer community, it'sbeen stated multiple times, but
just a bunch of all aroundawesome people who are willing
to share and be supportive ofone another. And I think that's
(02:40):
very apparent when meetingpeople face to face. Both just
people who I'm meeting for thefirst time, as well as people
who are famous in the community,who have been given talks, the
content creators and whatnot,they're just also approachable
and nice and willing to talk andspend time.
(03:01):
So I think that was a very bigplus for me. And then just
secondly, yeah, the talks thatwe've been able to receive so
far have just been phenomenal.Today especially was there were
a lot of speakers that whosecontent resonated with me in
particular about in the appdevelopment and the things
(03:23):
besides the coding that we needto make a part of our package
deal, so to speak, when we'retrying to create and share our
own stuff.
Geoff (03:37):
Yeah. So one of the big things that they always do at
DeepDeskwift every year is theyhave a section that is dedicated
specifically to speakers who areand who are speaking to indie
developers. And that was thesecond half of today's talk. We
had four different talks whoAdam named earlier that were
from indie developers who hadknow, were talking about their
(03:58):
experiences and about thingsthat specifically were important
to indie developers. JordanMorgan gave a talk on on indie
dev marketing.
Vedit gave a talk on, you know,like, you know, keeping a
maintainable experience as anindie developer, you know,
avoiding burnout, that kind ofthing. Danielle Lewis talked
(04:21):
about getting Danielle? Did Idescribe her name?
Nutter (04:24):
Danielle. Yeah.
Adam (04:25):
Yeah. That's right. Danielle Lewis.
Geoff (04:26):
Yep. Danielle Lewis gave a great talk on getting started
as an indie developer and, youknow, just how you can really
kind of build up an audience outof the gate. And then hit it.
Hit his talk was a little bitfunny. He did a design roast of
a couple of developer apps, andso kinda giving hints and tips
(04:47):
on designs by taking apart someindie developers who had
volunteered for sacrifice in theaudience.
So that was a pretty fun and andinteresting way of teaching
design to to a bunch of indiedevs who may not have designers
on their team.
Adam (05:03):
I I really wanted to have one of my apps be roasted, and
I'm also very glad that one ofmy apps was not roasted.
Nutter (05:11):
It it was very fun. Good idea at the time. And then
Adam (05:14):
Right. Right. Yeah. It was certainly fun to watch, and it
was probably fun to be on thereceiving end too. Was a he was
a good sport.
Geoff (05:20):
Good, good sport. Yeah. So, yeah, like, and I just said,
also one of the really greatthings here has been kind of the
quote unquote hallway trackwhere you're getting a chance to
talk to other people. And therehave been so many people like,
you know, I maybe even a lot ofpeople that I've never heard of
in the community that have justcome up and they've shown me,
like, such cool stuff thatthey're working on. And, you
(05:42):
know, I've I've gotten to talkabout some of the stuff that I'm
working on.
And, you know, people justconstantly bouncing ideas off of
each other, really building eachother up, really praising each
other. I've I've found thatabsolutely awesome. What about
the two of you?
Adam (05:55):
Yeah. I think what I really appreciated was that
there was almost always at leastfifteen minutes between talks,
Geoff (06:03):
which
Adam (06:04):
meant that there was actual meaningful time to have a
real conversation with somebody.Some of the other conferences
I've been to, it's been, youknow, five or seven minutes or
it's been just enough for abathroom or a coffee refill. So
you can't really get deep withsomebody. But the people I've
met have been wonderful, and theconversations we've been able to
(06:26):
share are more than surface deepbecause you can really start
talking about, what you work onand what some of the struggles
have been and how you bothappreciated this talk and why
and what it meant to you and howit how it applied to your
specific situation. So that, Ithink, has been really, a
(06:46):
special part of this conferencefor me is the balance of super
cool talks, but then enough timebetween them to actually process
them and chat with others aboutthem.
Geoff (06:57):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just the other
attendees. I mean, one of thegreat things has been the amount
of chance that the speakersthemselves have really given of
themselves to be able to talk topeople in the audience. I mean,
Dave, I know you got a chance tospeak with Stuart Lynch for
quite a while.
Nutter (07:17):
Oh, yeah.
Geoff (07:18):
How was that?
Nutter (07:19):
That was great. Yeah. I, you know, Stuart is such a
wonderful teacher. His videos,he's well crafted. You know, you
can tell that his teachingbackground is just it's
incredible.
And he shares all these things,and he does it so well. And I'm
sure a ton of people have comeup to him these last couple of
(07:40):
days. But, you know, he waswalking my way, and I was like,
hey. I'm just gonna shake stickout my hand, shake his hand, and
introduce myself. And he's verygracious, you know, and spent
oh, gosh.
It must have been, know, five toten minutes where we're just
talking about YouTube and andabout editing and just the
process and, you know,commenters, know, the the just
(08:05):
everything that comes with that.And just, you know, it was it
was really a special moment. Andjust in agreement with Adam,
it's like that extra time whereyou that spaced out where you
can mingle, interact with theother attendees. It's just so
important, especially in thisday where many of us work
(08:28):
remotely or are in satelliteoffices. There are not many
people, not very many chances tointeract with human beings face
to face.
As great as remote work is, andI love it, and it's absolutely
amazing for my situation, havingthe chance to meet new people
and to be social, it can't bebeat. And when you're meeting
(08:55):
with a group of people that allhave similar interests and can
share how they solved a problemor can
Adam (09:04):
Can be
Nutter (09:04):
empathetic to like, oh, yeah, this sucks. It still
sucks. And we got to figure outhow you know, fix this. It's
just it's just, you know, anincredible experience. And I'm
I'm very, very glad that that Icame.
Peter (09:16):
Hey, folks. If you like what you're hearing in this
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forward and having great guestsand great conversations, I
invite you to become a Patreonsupporter. You can go to
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Geoff (09:37):
Yeah. I I know a large part of Vidit's talk was about
the benefits that you get fromfostering a community and how
that helps you even as an indiedeveloper, how this helps just
motivate you, just having thepeople around to talk to and,
(09:57):
you know, just, yeah, like Isaid earlier, build each other
up and kind of hype each otherand, you know, get excited about
things, you know. It's tough todo in, even if you work for a
company, if you work remote,like you're not seeing people in
person as often and whatnot,that, you know, getting out to
something like this, getting outto a conference like this, or
(10:19):
even just like local meetups andwhatnot, it really helps kind of
keep up your motivation to dothese kinds of things and to
build cool stuff and continue toship when, you know, it may seem
like everything's hopeless. Butyeah, no, definitely the
community here has been greatand loved, getting to interact
(10:40):
with everybody.
Adam (10:41):
Yeah, it's really nice to just pull my head out of the
sand because I have to sit athome and I'm just in my own
little world working, And it'sso refreshing to meet so many
different people that are in thesame industry doing entirely
different, very interestingthings. And it just lets me open
(11:02):
my eyes again to what's possibleand what's available and just, I
don't know, give me interestback in in everything that can
be done. I mean, to between thetalks, the other nice thing has
been just down in the hotellobby. Since there's a block of
rooms in the hotel, almosteveryone at the conference is
(11:24):
staying here. And so then in theevenings, there's a big group in
the lobby that just kind ofhangs out and chats and compares
notes.
And, it's another great time tojust meet people and expand, you
know, meet new friends. I thinkthat's the best part is the
Geoff (11:43):
Getting a chance to connect with all new people.
Like I said earlier, you know,like I there have been people
that I've met that have been,you know, really interesting,
great people to talk to that Imyself have never heard of
before. It's just like, oh wow,this person really has something
exciting to tell me and, orsomething exciting that I can
talk about. Know, it's like, hadI not come to DeepDish, I may
(12:05):
never have known this personexisted. Yeah, just getting a
chance to just meet a bunch ofreally interesting people has
been a great part of this.
Nutter (12:15):
Yeah. I want to echo the earlier comment about being able
to resonate with one another onwhy we're in this industry, why
we are doing the things that wedo. Like, what are we building
and why is it important to us?Hearing these stories from other
developers on how they madesomething that at first they
thought it was just for them,but then also seeing how it has
(12:39):
helped somebody else is it's abig boost to recommitting to
quality software, but alsolooking at ways to make people's
lives better. That's one of thereasons why I am doing software
development is because I want tomake something that is good for
(13:00):
me, but also I want to make adifference, however small that
may be.
If it helps one person, if ithelps 10 people, then that'll be
time well spent.
Geoff (13:10):
Absolutely, yeah. And unlike a conference like WWC,
we're not all just focused onpleasing Apple. There's a lot
more of a focus on, you know,hey, what are the Looking at
ways to, you know, just reallyfocus on the craft of building
an app and not just on, well,what does Apple want us to do
this year? And what are the newAPIs? What are the new things?
(13:34):
Getting a lot more of this crosspollination and this
understanding of, you know, whatdoes it mean to just build an
app? And yeah, I find that kindof energy very prominent here.
Could we talk about
Nutter (13:47):
specifics from from talks that we have
Geoff (13:52):
Yeah. Go for Yeah.
Nutter (13:53):
Okay. So one one of the biggest influences on on you
know, from today's talks,especially, came from Danielle
Lewis. And and I think, youknow, we all spoke about this
later and just
Geoff (14:08):
Danielle also is somebody that we got a chance to speak to
for a couple minutes after hertalk. Yeah. Just really go off
on, man, that talk was verymeaningful.
Adam (14:16):
She started off Such a wonderful talk.
Nutter (14:19):
She she she knew she wanted to build something. She
didn't know how to make apps andshe, you know, she ended up
making and publishing 10 appswithin a
Geoff (14:29):
year. Yep.
Adam (14:30):
And which is wild to me.
Nutter (14:32):
It's Vision lesson. Thank you.
Geoff (14:34):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Nutter (14:35):
All all across. It's just incredible to hear. And it
wasn't it wasn't focused on Igotta make everything perfect
until I release. She madesomething, she released it, then
she said, okay, on to my nextone. And that kind of mindset of
build and ship has always beensomething very difficult for me
(14:57):
because I tend to look atsomething and want to be perfect
before I release it to theworld.
And spoiler alert, I haven'tshipped anything in a very long
time. I tend to make mydevelopment career has been
mostly working for companiesshipping apps under, you know,
(15:18):
the company, which so so yeah, Ihave shipped, it's the company
app, not my app. And so and as aresult, you know, my personal
portfolio is quite minusculejust because I haven't given the
time or the effort makingsomething and sharing it with
the world. Listening to her talkjust kind of motivated me to be
(15:43):
like, hey, you know, it doesn'thave to be perfect. It just
needs to be something thatworks.
And you know, we after shipping,you can post updates. There's
nothing that says, yeah, thismust be we're no longer in in
the age where, you know, yougotta you gotta ship a boxed
(16:04):
product and that's it. Like, youcan you can push updates. And so
I that's something that I tookto heart and hopefully will will
help me in, you know, releasingsomething this year that I that
I'm proud of.
Adam (16:18):
Who was it that said everything I'm everything I'm
doing is making meuncomfortable? If the thing that
I need to do is uncomfortablefor me, then that means I have
to do it.
Nutter (16:28):
I think that was Danielle.
Adam (16:29):
Was that Danielle? Mhmm. I thought it was, and I I couldn't
quite remember, but I loved Iloved that quote because that
that's what holds me back sooften is, well, I could either
fix this thing that'scomfortable to me or I could fix
this thing that's uncomfortableto me. I know which one I'm
gonna pick. I'm gonna stay in myrut and keep doing my thing.
Geoff (16:47):
That's definitely been a common theme across a number of
talks too.
Adam (16:51):
Yeah. It really has.
Geoff (16:52):
I know Jordan hit on that in his talk. He's saying
something along the lines of, asdevelopers, when we feel like we
need to do something to makesomething better, we go to what
we know. We go to coding ratherthan going to marketing. And
Michael Flareup in his talk, hewas the opening keynote speaker.
Like, one of the things that hesays is just like, you know,
(17:13):
really, like, you just gottafocus on, like, velocity and
volume and really just gettingyour name out there and get
getting constant feedback andconstant improvement.
And so yeah. Danielle definitelyhad the, like, most crystallized
version of this talk and, like,really focused on that really on
(17:34):
that idea in specific. But,yeah, it's it's been something
that
Adam (17:38):
Yeah. It's been lot of people.
Geoff (17:40):
Us over the head with, hey. You know? Just shit. Just
just get it out there.
Adam (17:45):
Just do the thing. Right. Yeah. Which is, you know, is the
easiest thing to to hear and tosay and to say, yep. I'm gonna
do that, but then so hard toactually just do.
But that it's been so inspiringto hear from people who actually
did this and have paved that wayand can say, yeah. You can do it
(18:05):
too. There was there was one ofthe other talks. My memory is
obviously not terribly great, soyou're gonna have to remind
remind me of this one too.Someone said that Indie Dev is I
don't know.
I don't think they said lonely,but it's Isolating. Isolating.
Yeah. That was that was Vedit's
Geoff (18:23):
talk. Okay.
Adam (18:23):
Yeah. Man, I related to that a lot because so many
times, it just feels like I'mwandering alone in the desert.
Mhmm. And the nice thing bothabout the talks and about
chatting with people betweentalks and this whole experience
is knowing, oh, other people arewandering in the
Geoff (18:41):
desert too. You're not alone. Yeah.
Adam (18:43):
Yeah. You're not alone. You don't always see them, but,
you can encourage each other andyeah, keep walking. You're doing
right. It's tough.
It's uncomfortable. It doesn'talways feel right, but we're
here with you and we're doing ittoo. And here's how I've seen
success. Here's what keeps megoing forward And sharing that
inspiration and hearing thatinspiration have been, really
(19:05):
wonderful.
Geoff (19:05):
Time for a break.
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Geoff (20:19):
Break time over.
Nutter (20:20):
Yeah. I believe the the name of his talk was, like, p
pizza can help your startup or
Geoff (20:26):
something along save your startup.
Nutter (20:28):
Pizza will save your startup. And and and the the
punch line was he learned how tomake pizzas. Like He was in the
physical world. He was buildingsomething. He was creating
something that had nothing to dowith development.
And that helped him recover fromburnout because he experienced
burnout. And one of the thingsthat he had to do was find
(20:49):
something that he could findpassion about unrelated that
also could help he could shareit with the world. And he ended
up having these what was it,like monthly gatherings where he
would just have pizza partieswhere he would make the pizza
and his friends would come. Andhe showed his progress on how
his first pizzas weren't sogreat. I think his parents said,
(21:12):
oh, yeah.
They're great. And he knewbetter. But he but he showed the
progress pics of of, you know,of of his his skill. And he
eventually passed some sort ofexam for, like, being like an
official pizza pizzeriaPizziolo. Pizziolo.
Yes. So that was that was adelightful talk. And I I
(21:32):
thoroughly enjoyed that.
Geoff (21:34):
So in addition to the talks themselves, we've also got
like, there's an area rightoutside the main conference area
with a bunch of the sponsorsaround, and they have booths and
various things that you can goand learn about their products
and a bunch of cool swag as wellas you get at conferences like
that. So have either of you hadany fun experiences at the
(21:54):
sponsor booths?
Adam (21:55):
I think I am going home with more than double the t
shirts that I came with. That'sthat's a win.
Geoff (22:05):
I've been steadfastly refusing t shirts, but I will,
I'm a total sucker for pins andstickers. I'll take any of
those. So, yeah, I've got abunch of pins. Also, a thing
that plenty of other attendeeshave brought as well is pins and
stickers. Those are quite fun aswell.
Nutter (22:23):
Yeah. I'm a sucker for swag for sure.
Geoff (22:26):
I know, like, additionally, like a bunch of
the sponsors have been, youknow, just similarly, like as
the attendees, like very open totalking about things that aren't
necessarily even their product.I know Nader and I had a long
conversation with one of thefounders, I guess, of Swiftly
(22:46):
Workspace. Mhmm. And, you know,he he mostly just talked about,
like, the VC backed indieexperience. Like, not not really
indie, but, you know, kind ofgoing from a small startup to
really trying to find venturefunding and trying to build up
this large thing and thenbecoming a sponsor of Deep Dish
(23:10):
because he'd attended theconference in the past.
You know, like what theconference had meant to him as
he got his company started andreally the importance that this
conference was to his backstory.And so, yeah, fun experience
that really had nothing to dowith the product itself, but
(23:32):
still quite an interestingexperience.
Nutter (23:35):
Yeah, was cool. It was very sincere and you could tell,
you know, it wasn't just asoulless company shoveling their
wares. He had a story behindwhat he was doing and what was
meaningful to him and that wasreally cool to have that
interaction.
Adam (23:49):
I would not be surprised. I don't know what the count is,
but I know a lot of the sponsorsare previous attendees or have
been sponsoring since the firstyear. Yeah, they are here
because they love it. So it's alot more than just, you know,
the hard sell for the peoplewalking up. Yeah.
But it's really parts of ourcommunity.
Geoff (24:09):
Yeah, they're meaningful parts of the community as well.
Like, yeah, I know Josh put up aat the very beginning that,
yeah, like more than half of thesponsors have been sponsoring
from the very first year.They've been around this whole
time. RevenueCat is the primarysponsor, and I think that's a
little unfair because Josh worksthere. Know, like there are
(24:32):
several other sponsors therethat have been here every single
year and have been a major partof the community just as much as
all of the attendees and all ofthe speakers.
And so one final thing to hit onbefore we leave. This place is
called Deep Dish Swift. So Iwanna get your experiences on
the deep dish that you've had sofar this week.
Nutter (24:56):
Oh, man.
Geoff (24:57):
Nutter, I think you Yeah. We we all we all had some last
night.
Nutter (25:01):
It was delicious. So, yeah, I went to Pequaz with with
a with a group. It was great.There's the the Discord channel.
People were basically setting upgroups to to go head out for
dinner.
And I and I just joined a groupand it was it was delightful.
The the company was great andthe pizza was fantastic. I
(25:27):
haven't had deep dish before inChicago. So this is a first for
me. It was quite good.
And we wondered like how muchshould we order? Because there
were four of
Geoff (25:37):
us And we're like, should
Nutter (25:38):
we get like a should we get two larges? And we're like,
wait a second. No. It's not justit's not just diameter. It's
also like depth.
Right? So like, don't wanna
Adam (25:47):
of pizza if you want.
Geoff (25:48):
You literally called a deep dip. Yes. Yes.
Nutter (25:50):
So so we're like, oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe we'll go two
medium. So we did two medium andwe still had plenty of leftover
for someone to take home. I wasstuffed.
I was like, I can't eat anymorebecause I knew that like there
was gonna be there was gonna bepizza just around the corner.
And sure enough, there was forlunch today.
Geoff (26:04):
For lunch.
Adam (26:05):
Yeah. Yeah.
Nutter (26:07):
But it was yeah. It was it was it was quite
Geoff (26:09):
delicious. My group also ended up at Pequads. We had a
group of nine and we orderedfour pizzas we pretty much
polished them, four largepizzas, sorry. We ordered four
large pizzas and we pretty muchpolished them off and oh my God,
I was regretting that thatThat's impressive work. It was
tough.
I had three slices myself andoh, good God, that third slice
(26:31):
was a mistake. But yeah, no,definitely delicious. Like,
that's not to say that the pizzawas disgusting. The pizza was
amazing. It was great.
But that volume of pizza, likeafter a day of, you know,
wandering around and talking toa bunch of people and then you
gotta head home and oh man, thatwas, it was was still with me
(26:51):
the next day. I did not havepizza for lunch today because I
was just like, I can't I can'tdeal with this. Adam, where did
you end up?
Adam (26:59):
Yeah. So I forget the name of the place. Crusts Pizza,
maybe, something like that. Itwas tavern style pizza. Oh.
So it was not deep dish, but itwas the other pizza. There's a
guy from Chicago here that toldme, like, yeah. Chicago's famous
for deep dish, but really
Geoff (27:15):
Really, you want the tavern style?
Adam (27:16):
Everyone eats tavern style when you go out for pizza. So I
had pepperoni and hot honeypizza, which I had only ever
heard about once joining the,deep dish discord and kind of
getting involved in the gettinginvolved in the pizza culture
here. I'd never heard of hothoney before, but it was really
good.
Geoff (27:35):
I did put hot honey on my, April Fool's Day pizza, but
that was, I couldn't really tellwhat was going on there. There
was a lot
Nutter (27:41):
of things going on. It
Adam (27:43):
was one of many mistakes.
Geoff (27:44):
It was one of many mistakes. Yeah. So I have not
had a proper hot honey pizza.
Adam (27:48):
Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was good. It was, it was delicious.
So that was fun.
I wanted that. I definitelywanted the pepperoni, hot honey
experience here. And I got thatand then had my first deep dish
slice for lunch, which was good.And, so the next thing I need to
do before I go home is thatPequot strip
Geoff (28:06):
There you go.
Adam (28:07):
And they can roll me back home after I finish there too.
Geoff (28:11):
Alright. So I think that about wraps it up with our deep
dish experience. I'm gonna giveeverybody a chance to tell
people where they can find you.
Adam (28:20):
So let's start with Adam. Yeah, you can find me. Well, I'm
going pitch my product and youcan find me from there.
Museapp.com, m u s e app Com.Then you hit the about section
and you'll see all the Twitterand blue sky and websites and
things like that.
Or my website adamwolf. Meadamwolf. Me.
Geoff (28:39):
Neutter?
Nutter (28:40):
Yeah. So I'm I'm not much of a social media guy, but
you can find me streaming onTwitch. Nutterfi is my handle.
And I stream softwaredevelopment. I'm working on an
app right now.
It's like a vector drawing appthat I'm hoping to publish soon.
And if you go check out the pagethere, there's beta link if
(29:04):
you'd like to run the testflight version.
Geoff (29:07):
And of course, you can always find me and everything
that I do at cocoatype.com, andyou can find out all of the
information that you need toknow about the podcast, the very
podcast that you're listening toright now at compileswift.com.
So thanks for hanging out withus tonight, and, we will see you
all next time.
Adam (29:24):
Yeah. Thanks for having me on.
Nutter (29:25):
Thank you. Bye, everybody.
Hello, everyone. We are here live from the Deep Dish
SWIFT conference in Chicago,Illinois. I've got special
guests here, Adam Wolf and DaveNutter. Say hi, everybody.
Adam (00:13):
Hey, buddy. Excited to be here.
Geoff (00:15):
And so we're gonna give just a little bit of a mid
conference update on exactlywhat we're what we've seen here,
what we're doing here, and thekinds of things that we've seen
and enjoyed. So let's start withAdam. What is what is your
favorite thing at the conferencebeen so far, whether that's a
talk, a post event, anythinglike that? What what have you
(00:38):
seen so far?
Adam (00:39):
Okay. So I have two things. The first is bottomless
coffee. I was so excited
Geoff (00:47):
when I
Adam (00:47):
when I finally got here, and I could just refill my
coffee forever because the dayof my travel, I was underdosed
for sure on my caffeine. As faras talks, I've really enjoyed,
Jordan Morgan's talk. He Yep.We'll get into that later, but
he did one on marketing that Ithought was great. But,
(01:07):
honestly, there have been somany good talks.
Antoine VanderLeest talk wasgreat. Danielle Lewis had an
amazing talk. Allison McIntyrehad a great talk. Adam Schott,
like, there's been a lot. SoStuart Lynch, there's been, I
don't know, so many.
So I'm just happy to be herebecause I can't If you
Geoff (01:25):
name enough, you're gonna sound bad for the people you
didn't name.
Adam (01:27):
I know. Yeah.
Nutter (01:29):
Everybody except.
Adam (01:30):
Everybody except. Yeah. Yeah. So I should say so Michael
Flareup, Adam Shaw, StuartLynch, Jacob, Kijich. I I'm
sorry, Jacob.
Allison McEntire, AntoineVanderLee, Adrian Eves, Sima
Nourish, Danielle Lewis, JordanMorgan, Vidit Bhargava, Hide van
(01:54):
der Plug, and, Charlie Chapmanwith his whole podcast recording
is what we've seen so far.
Geoff (02:02):
Yep. Yep. Yeah. We we are recording this on the evening of
day two of the event, and, yeah,we have one more left to go
tomorrow. So, yeah, let's passit over to Nutter.
What have you what have you seenso far? Yeah. What's your
favorite thing?
Nutter (02:16):
This is my first attendance at Deep Dish. I've
been wanting to go for a verylong time, and so I've been
thoroughly enjoying theatmosphere, the camaraderie. The
Swift developer community, it'sbeen stated multiple times, but
just a bunch of all aroundawesome people who are willing
to share and be supportive ofone another. And I think that's
(02:40):
very apparent when meetingpeople face to face. Both just
people who I'm meeting for thefirst time, as well as people
who are famous in the community,who have been given talks, the
content creators and whatnot,they're just also approachable
and nice and willing to talk andspend time.
(03:01):
So I think that was a very bigplus for me. And then just
secondly, yeah, the talks thatwe've been able to receive so
far have just been phenomenal.Today especially was there were
a lot of speakers that whosecontent resonated with me in
particular about in the appdevelopment and the things
(03:23):
besides the coding that we needto make a part of our package
deal, so to speak, when we'retrying to create and share our
own stuff.
Geoff (03:37):
Yeah. So one of the big things that they always do at
DeepDeskwift every year is theyhave a section that is dedicated
specifically to speakers who areand who are speaking to indie
developers. And that was thesecond half of today's talk. We
had four different talks whoAdam named earlier that were
from indie developers who hadknow, were talking about their
(03:58):
experiences and about thingsthat specifically were important
to indie developers. JordanMorgan gave a talk on on indie
dev marketing.
Vedit gave a talk on, you know,like, you know, keeping a
maintainable experience as anindie developer, you know,
avoiding burnout, that kind ofthing. Danielle Lewis talked
(04:21):
about getting Danielle? Did Idescribe her name?
Nutter (04:24):
Danielle. Yeah.
Adam (04:25):
Yeah. That's right. Danielle Lewis.
Geoff (04:26):
Yep. Danielle Lewis gave a great talk on getting started
as an indie developer and, youknow, just how you can really
kind of build up an audience outof the gate. And then hit it.
Hit his talk was a little bitfunny. He did a design roast of
a couple of developer apps, andso kinda giving hints and tips
(04:47):
on designs by taking apart someindie developers who had
volunteered for sacrifice in theaudience.
So that was a pretty fun and andinteresting way of teaching
design to to a bunch of indiedevs who may not have designers
on their team.
Adam (05:03):
I I really wanted to have one of my apps be roasted, and
I'm also very glad that one ofmy apps was not roasted.
Nutter (05:11):
It it was very fun. Good idea at the time. And then
Adam (05:14):
Right. Right. Yeah. It was certainly fun to watch, and it
was probably fun to be on thereceiving end too. Was a he was
a good sport.
Geoff (05:20):
Good, good sport. Yeah. So, yeah, like, and I just said,
also one of the really greatthings here has been kind of the
quote unquote hallway trackwhere you're getting a chance to
talk to other people. And therehave been so many people like,
you know, I maybe even a lot ofpeople that I've never heard of
in the community that have justcome up and they've shown me,
like, such cool stuff thatthey're working on. And, you
(05:42):
know, I've I've gotten to talkabout some of the stuff that I'm
working on.
And, you know, people justconstantly bouncing ideas off of
each other, really building eachother up, really praising each
other. I've I've found thatabsolutely awesome. What about
the two of you?
Adam (05:55):
Yeah. I think what I really appreciated was that
there was almost always at leastfifteen minutes between talks,
Geoff (06:03):
which
Adam (06:04):
meant that there was actual meaningful time to have a
real conversation with somebody.Some of the other conferences
I've been to, it's been, youknow, five or seven minutes or
it's been just enough for abathroom or a coffee refill. So
you can't really get deep withsomebody. But the people I've
met have been wonderful, and theconversations we've been able to
(06:26):
share are more than surface deepbecause you can really start
talking about, what you work onand what some of the struggles
have been and how you bothappreciated this talk and why
and what it meant to you and howit how it applied to your
specific situation. So that, Ithink, has been really, a
(06:46):
special part of this conferencefor me is the balance of super
cool talks, but then enough timebetween them to actually process
them and chat with others aboutthem.
Geoff (06:57):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's not just the other
attendees. I mean, one of thegreat things has been the amount
of chance that the speakersthemselves have really given of
themselves to be able to talk topeople in the audience. I mean,
Dave, I know you got a chance tospeak with Stuart Lynch for
quite a while.
Nutter (07:17):
Oh, yeah.
Geoff (07:18):
How was that?
Nutter (07:19):
That was great. Yeah. I, you know, Stuart is such a
wonderful teacher. His videos,he's well crafted. You know, you
can tell that his teachingbackground is just it's
incredible.
And he shares all these things,and he does it so well. And I'm
sure a ton of people have comeup to him these last couple of
(07:40):
days. But, you know, he waswalking my way, and I was like,
hey. I'm just gonna shake stickout my hand, shake his hand, and
introduce myself. And he's verygracious, you know, and spent
oh, gosh.
It must have been, know, five toten minutes where we're just
talking about YouTube and andabout editing and just the
process and, you know,commenters, know, the the just
(08:05):
everything that comes with that.And just, you know, it was it
was really a special moment. Andjust in agreement with Adam,
it's like that extra time whereyou that spaced out where you
can mingle, interact with theother attendees. It's just so
important, especially in thisday where many of us work
(08:28):
remotely or are in satelliteoffices. There are not many
people, not very many chances tointeract with human beings face
to face.
As great as remote work is, andI love it, and it's absolutely
amazing for my situation, havingthe chance to meet new people
and to be social, it can't bebeat. And when you're meeting
(08:55):
with a group of people that allhave similar interests and can
share how they solved a problemor can
Adam (09:04):
Can be
Nutter (09:04):
empathetic to like, oh, yeah, this sucks. It still
sucks. And we got to figure outhow you know, fix this. It's
just it's just, you know, anincredible experience. And I'm
I'm very, very glad that that Icame.
Peter (09:16):
Hey, folks. If you like what you're hearing in this
podcast and you wanna help thispodcast to continue going
forward and having great guestsand great conversations, I
invite you to become a Patreonsupporter. You can go to
Patreon.com/compileswift, whereyou will get ad free versions of
the podcast along with othercontent.
Geoff (09:37):
Yeah. I I know a large part of Vidit's talk was about
the benefits that you get fromfostering a community and how
that helps you even as an indiedeveloper, how this helps just
motivate you, just having thepeople around to talk to and,
(09:57):
you know, just, yeah, like Isaid earlier, build each other
up and kind of hype each otherand, you know, get excited about
things, you know. It's tough todo in, even if you work for a
company, if you work remote,like you're not seeing people in
person as often and whatnot,that, you know, getting out to
something like this, getting outto a conference like this, or
(10:19):
even just like local meetups andwhatnot, it really helps kind of
keep up your motivation to dothese kinds of things and to
build cool stuff and continue toship when, you know, it may seem
like everything's hopeless. Butyeah, no, definitely the
community here has been greatand loved, getting to interact
(10:40):
with everybody.
Adam (10:41):
Yeah, it's really nice to just pull my head out of the
sand because I have to sit athome and I'm just in my own
little world working, And it'sso refreshing to meet so many
different people that are in thesame industry doing entirely
different, very interestingthings. And it just lets me open
(11:02):
my eyes again to what's possibleand what's available and just, I
don't know, give me interestback in in everything that can
be done. I mean, to between thetalks, the other nice thing has
been just down in the hotellobby. Since there's a block of
rooms in the hotel, almosteveryone at the conference is
(11:24):
staying here. And so then in theevenings, there's a big group in
the lobby that just kind ofhangs out and chats and compares
notes.
And, it's another great time tojust meet people and expand, you
know, meet new friends. I thinkthat's the best part is the
Geoff (11:43):
Getting a chance to connect with all new people.
Like I said earlier, you know,like I there have been people
that I've met that have been,you know, really interesting,
great people to talk to that Imyself have never heard of
before. It's just like, oh wow,this person really has something
exciting to tell me and, orsomething exciting that I can
talk about. Know, it's like, hadI not come to DeepDish, I may
(12:05):
never have known this personexisted. Yeah, just getting a
chance to just meet a bunch ofreally interesting people has
been a great part of this.
Nutter (12:15):
Yeah. I want to echo the earlier comment about being able
to resonate with one another onwhy we're in this industry, why
we are doing the things that wedo. Like, what are we building
and why is it important to us?Hearing these stories from other
developers on how they madesomething that at first they
thought it was just for them,but then also seeing how it has
(12:39):
helped somebody else is it's abig boost to recommitting to
quality software, but alsolooking at ways to make people's
lives better. That's one of thereasons why I am doing software
development is because I want tomake something that is good for
(13:00):
me, but also I want to make adifference, however small that
may be.
If it helps one person, if ithelps 10 people, then that'll be
time well spent.
Geoff (13:10):
Absolutely, yeah. And unlike a conference like WWC,
we're not all just focused onpleasing Apple. There's a lot
more of a focus on, you know,hey, what are the Looking at
ways to, you know, just reallyfocus on the craft of building
an app and not just on, well,what does Apple want us to do
this year? And what are the newAPIs? What are the new things?
(13:34):
Getting a lot more of this crosspollination and this
understanding of, you know, whatdoes it mean to just build an
app? And yeah, I find that kindof energy very prominent here.
Could we talk about
Nutter (13:47):
specifics from from talks that we have
Geoff (13:52):
Yeah. Go for Yeah.
Nutter (13:53):
Okay. So one one of the biggest influences on on you
know, from today's talks,especially, came from Danielle
Lewis. And and I think, youknow, we all spoke about this
later and just
Geoff (14:08):
Danielle also is somebody that we got a chance to speak to
for a couple minutes after hertalk. Yeah. Just really go off
on, man, that talk was verymeaningful.
Adam (14:16):
She started off Such a wonderful talk.
Nutter (14:19):
She she she knew she wanted to build something. She
didn't know how to make apps andshe, you know, she ended up
making and publishing 10 appswithin a
Geoff (14:29):
year. Yep.
Adam (14:30):
And which is wild to me.
Nutter (14:32):
It's Vision lesson. Thank you.
Geoff (14:34):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Nutter (14:35):
All all across. It's just incredible to hear. And it
wasn't it wasn't focused on Igotta make everything perfect
until I release. She madesomething, she released it, then
she said, okay, on to my nextone. And that kind of mindset of
build and ship has always beensomething very difficult for me
(14:57):
because I tend to look atsomething and want to be perfect
before I release it to theworld.
And spoiler alert, I haven'tshipped anything in a very long
time. I tend to make mydevelopment career has been
mostly working for companiesshipping apps under, you know,
(15:18):
the company, which so so yeah, Ihave shipped, it's the company
app, not my app. And so and as aresult, you know, my personal
portfolio is quite minusculejust because I haven't given the
time or the effort makingsomething and sharing it with
the world. Listening to her talkjust kind of motivated me to be
(15:43):
like, hey, you know, it doesn'thave to be perfect. It just
needs to be something thatworks.
And you know, we after shipping,you can post updates. There's
nothing that says, yeah, thismust be we're no longer in in
the age where, you know, yougotta you gotta ship a boxed
(16:04):
product and that's it. Like, youcan you can push updates. And so
I that's something that I tookto heart and hopefully will will
help me in, you know, releasingsomething this year that I that
I'm proud of.
Adam (16:18):
Who was it that said everything I'm everything I'm
doing is making meuncomfortable? If the thing that
I need to do is uncomfortablefor me, then that means I have
to do it.
Nutter (16:28):
I think that was Danielle.
Adam (16:29):
Was that Danielle? Mhmm. I thought it was, and I I couldn't
quite remember, but I loved Iloved that quote because that
that's what holds me back sooften is, well, I could either
fix this thing that'scomfortable to me or I could fix
this thing that's uncomfortableto me. I know which one I'm
gonna pick. I'm gonna stay in myrut and keep doing my thing.
Geoff (16:47):
That's definitely been a common theme across a number of
talks too.
Adam (16:51):
Yeah. It really has.
Geoff (16:52):
I know Jordan hit on that in his talk. He's saying
something along the lines of, asdevelopers, when we feel like we
need to do something to makesomething better, we go to what
we know. We go to coding ratherthan going to marketing. And
Michael Flareup in his talk, hewas the opening keynote speaker.
Like, one of the things that hesays is just like, you know,
(17:13):
really, like, you just gottafocus on, like, velocity and
volume and really just gettingyour name out there and get
getting constant feedback andconstant improvement.
And so yeah. Danielle definitelyhad the, like, most crystallized
version of this talk and, like,really focused on that really on
(17:34):
that idea in specific. But,yeah, it's it's been something
that
Adam (17:38):
Yeah. It's been lot of people.
Geoff (17:40):
Us over the head with, hey. You know? Just shit. Just
just get it out there.
Adam (17:45):
Just do the thing. Right. Yeah. Which is, you know, is the
easiest thing to to hear and tosay and to say, yep. I'm gonna
do that, but then so hard toactually just do.
But that it's been so inspiringto hear from people who actually
did this and have paved that wayand can say, yeah. You can do it
(18:05):
too. There was there was one ofthe other talks. My memory is
obviously not terribly great, soyou're gonna have to remind
remind me of this one too.Someone said that Indie Dev is I
don't know.
I don't think they said lonely,but it's Isolating. Isolating.
Yeah. That was that was Vedit's
Geoff (18:23):
talk. Okay.
Adam (18:23):
Yeah. Man, I related to that a lot because so many
times, it just feels like I'mwandering alone in the desert.
Mhmm. And the nice thing bothabout the talks and about
chatting with people betweentalks and this whole experience
is knowing, oh, other people arewandering in the
Geoff (18:41):
desert too. You're not alone. Yeah.
Adam (18:43):
Yeah. You're not alone. You don't always see them, but,
you can encourage each other andyeah, keep walking. You're doing
right. It's tough.
It's uncomfortable. It doesn'talways feel right, but we're
here with you and we're doing ittoo. And here's how I've seen
success. Here's what keeps megoing forward And sharing that
inspiration and hearing thatinspiration have been, really
(19:05):
wonderful.
Geoff (19:05):
Time for a break.
Peter (19:07):
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(19:27):
service because it just has aton of really good first rate
apps that I use all the time.
And for me, it's invaluable as adeveloper to have access to
tools for things like APIs, forplanning projects, writing
emails, writing documentation.And you get all of these things
including database apps, all ofthat kind of stuff right there
(19:50):
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details there. And it's got alink that you can go over and
(20:12):
start using the service and seehow it works out for you.
I strongly recommend this toevery Mac user.
Geoff (20:19):
Break time over.
Nutter (20:20):
Yeah. I believe the the name of his talk was, like, p
pizza can help your startup or
Geoff (20:26):
something along save your startup.
Nutter (20:28):
Pizza will save your startup. And and and the the
punch line was he learned how tomake pizzas. Like He was in the
physical world. He was buildingsomething. He was creating
something that had nothing to dowith development.
And that helped him recover fromburnout because he experienced
burnout. And one of the thingsthat he had to do was find
(20:49):
something that he could findpassion about unrelated that
also could help he could shareit with the world. And he ended
up having these what was it,like monthly gatherings where he
would just have pizza partieswhere he would make the pizza
and his friends would come. Andhe showed his progress on how
his first pizzas weren't sogreat. I think his parents said,
(21:12):
oh, yeah.
They're great. And he knewbetter. But he but he showed the
progress pics of of, you know,of of his his skill. And he
eventually passed some sort ofexam for, like, being like an
official pizza pizzeriaPizziolo. Pizziolo.
Yes. So that was that was adelightful talk. And I I
(21:32):
thoroughly enjoyed that.
Geoff (21:34):
So in addition to the talks themselves, we've also got
like, there's an area rightoutside the main conference area
with a bunch of the sponsorsaround, and they have booths and
various things that you can goand learn about their products
and a bunch of cool swag as wellas you get at conferences like
that. So have either of you hadany fun experiences at the
(21:54):
sponsor booths?
Adam (21:55):
I think I am going home with more than double the t
shirts that I came with. That'sthat's a win.
Geoff (22:05):
I've been steadfastly refusing t shirts, but I will,
I'm a total sucker for pins andstickers. I'll take any of
those. So, yeah, I've got abunch of pins. Also, a thing
that plenty of other attendeeshave brought as well is pins and
stickers. Those are quite fun aswell.
Nutter (22:23):
Yeah. I'm a sucker for swag for sure.
Geoff (22:26):
I know, like, additionally, like a bunch of
the sponsors have been, youknow, just similarly, like as
the attendees, like very open totalking about things that aren't
necessarily even their product.I know Nader and I had a long
conversation with one of thefounders, I guess, of Swiftly
(22:46):
Workspace. Mhmm. And, you know,he he mostly just talked about,
like, the VC backed indieexperience. Like, not not really
indie, but, you know, kind ofgoing from a small startup to
really trying to find venturefunding and trying to build up
this large thing and thenbecoming a sponsor of Deep Dish
(23:10):
because he'd attended theconference in the past.
You know, like what theconference had meant to him as
he got his company started andreally the importance that this
conference was to his backstory.And so, yeah, fun experience
that really had nothing to dowith the product itself, but
(23:32):
still quite an interestingexperience.
Nutter (23:35):
Yeah, was cool. It was very sincere and you could tell,
you know, it wasn't just asoulless company shoveling their
wares. He had a story behindwhat he was doing and what was
meaningful to him and that wasreally cool to have that
interaction.
Adam (23:49):
I would not be surprised. I don't know what the count is,
but I know a lot of the sponsorsare previous attendees or have
been sponsoring since the firstyear. Yeah, they are here
because they love it. So it's alot more than just, you know,
the hard sell for the peoplewalking up. Yeah.
But it's really parts of ourcommunity.
Geoff (24:09):
Yeah, they're meaningful parts of the community as well.
Like, yeah, I know Josh put up aat the very beginning that,
yeah, like more than half of thesponsors have been sponsoring
from the very first year.They've been around this whole
time. RevenueCat is the primarysponsor, and I think that's a
little unfair because Josh worksthere. Know, like there are
(24:32):
several other sponsors therethat have been here every single
year and have been a major partof the community just as much as
all of the attendees and all ofthe speakers.
And so one final thing to hit onbefore we leave. This place is
called Deep Dish Swift. So Iwanna get your experiences on
the deep dish that you've had sofar this week.
Nutter (24:56):
Oh, man.
Geoff (24:57):
Nutter, I think you Yeah. We we all we all had some last
night.
Nutter (25:01):
It was delicious. So, yeah, I went to Pequaz with with
a with a group. It was great.There's the the Discord channel.
People were basically setting upgroups to to go head out for
dinner.
And I and I just joined a groupand it was it was delightful.
The the company was great andthe pizza was fantastic. I
(25:27):
haven't had deep dish before inChicago. So this is a first for
me. It was quite good.
And we wondered like how muchshould we order? Because there
were four of
Geoff (25:37):
us And we're like, should
Nutter (25:38):
we get like a should we get two larges? And we're like,
wait a second. No. It's not justit's not just diameter. It's
also like depth.
Right? So like, don't wanna
Adam (25:47):
of pizza if you want.
Geoff (25:48):
You literally called a deep dip. Yes. Yes.
Nutter (25:50):
So so we're like, oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe we'll go two
medium. So we did two medium andwe still had plenty of leftover
for someone to take home. I wasstuffed.
I was like, I can't eat anymorebecause I knew that like there
was gonna be there was gonna bepizza just around the corner.
And sure enough, there was forlunch today.
Geoff (26:04):
For lunch.
Adam (26:05):
Yeah. Yeah.
Nutter (26:07):
But it was yeah. It was it was it was quite
Geoff (26:09):
delicious. My group also ended up at Pequads. We had a
group of nine and we orderedfour pizzas we pretty much
polished them, four largepizzas, sorry. We ordered four
large pizzas and we pretty muchpolished them off and oh my God,
I was regretting that thatThat's impressive work. It was
tough.
I had three slices myself andoh, good God, that third slice
(26:31):
was a mistake. But yeah, no,definitely delicious. Like,
that's not to say that the pizzawas disgusting. The pizza was
amazing. It was great.
But that volume of pizza, likeafter a day of, you know,
wandering around and talking toa bunch of people and then you
gotta head home and oh man, thatwas, it was was still with me
(26:51):
the next day. I did not havepizza for lunch today because I
was just like, I can't I can'tdeal with this. Adam, where did
you end up?
Adam (26:59):
Yeah. So I forget the name of the place. Crusts Pizza,
maybe, something like that. Itwas tavern style pizza. Oh.
So it was not deep dish, but itwas the other pizza. There's a
guy from Chicago here that toldme, like, yeah. Chicago's famous
for deep dish, but really
Geoff (27:15):
Really, you want the tavern style?
Adam (27:16):
Everyone eats tavern style when you go out for pizza. So I
had pepperoni and hot honeypizza, which I had only ever
heard about once joining the,deep dish discord and kind of
getting involved in the gettinginvolved in the pizza culture
here. I'd never heard of hothoney before, but it was really
good.
Geoff (27:35):
I did put hot honey on my, April Fool's Day pizza, but
that was, I couldn't really tellwhat was going on there. There
was a lot
Nutter (27:41):
of things going on. It
Adam (27:43):
was one of many mistakes.
Geoff (27:44):
It was one of many mistakes. Yeah. So I have not
had a proper hot honey pizza.
Adam (27:48):
Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was good. It was, it was delicious.
So that was fun.
I wanted that. I definitelywanted the pepperoni, hot honey
experience here. And I got thatand then had my first deep dish
slice for lunch, which was good.And, so the next thing I need to
do before I go home is thatPequot strip
Geoff (28:06):
There you go.
Adam (28:07):
And they can roll me back home after I finish there too.
Geoff (28:11):
Alright. So I think that about wraps it up with our deep
dish experience. I'm gonna giveeverybody a chance to tell
people where they can find you.
Adam (28:20):
So let's start with Adam. Yeah, you can find me. Well, I'm
going pitch my product and youcan find me from there.
Museapp.com, m u s e app Com.Then you hit the about section
and you'll see all the Twitterand blue sky and websites and
things like that.
Or my website adamwolf. Meadamwolf. Me.
Geoff (28:39):
Neutter?
Nutter (28:40):
Yeah. So I'm I'm not much of a social media guy, but
you can find me streaming onTwitch. Nutterfi is my handle.
And I stream softwaredevelopment. I'm working on an
app right now.
It's like a vector drawing appthat I'm hoping to publish soon.
And if you go check out the pagethere, there's beta link if
(29:04):
you'd like to run the testflight version.
Geoff (29:07):
And of course, you can always find me and everything
that I do at cocoatype.com, andyou can find out all of the
information that you need toknow about the podcast, the very
podcast that you're listening toright now at compileswift.com.
So thanks for hanging out withus tonight, and, we will see you
all next time.
Adam (29:24):
Yeah. Thanks for having me on.
Nutter (29:25):
Thank you. Bye, everybody.
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