February 17, 2025 • 65 mins
I had a nice discussion with author Madeline James about how she has just begun learning conlanging to create naming languages and formulaic spells. Join us as we discuss how she focuses on limited conlangs for the needs of her story and about her journey learning the craft. You can see a continuation of this... Read more »
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(00:00):
But the limitations with,like, writing a book is
that, like, the readerdoesn't speak the language.
So it is meaningless to them.
And so they will, in most cases,right, they're just going to skim.
Like, if you're reading and then you havesomething that's in, like, those italic
other language, you know, gibbly bits,whatever, they're going to be like,
I don't know what that means, skim it,and then go to the next line, right?
(00:22):
[Music]
Welcome to Conlangery, thepodcast about constructed
(00:42):
languages and thepeople who create them.
I'm George Corley.
And with me over in Maryland is MadelineJames of the Madeline James Writes channel.
And we're here to talkwith you, Madeline, about...
you are just recently sortof getting into conlanging.
(01:08):
Yeah.
So Madeline's channel has a lot of worldbuilding stuff.
And you do greattutorials about building
geology and planetsand also cultures and stuff.
But you just, like, I believe with yourstreams, what you were doing is you
(01:31):
started out doing just naming languages,right?
Yeah.
And then recently...
You started to do a language forspellcasting.
But you don't... you're not doing the samething like I do when I do spellcasting
languages, where Imake a language, and then
(01:52):
I make it for... andthen I do incantations.
But you're, like, sort of going from theopposite end.
I want to talk to you about, like, howdid you discover, like, conlanging and.
And how did you... howdid... how did that come
into your, like, broaderworld building stuff?
(02:13):
And how were you introduced to that?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I guess it all starts becauseas a fantasy writer, you have to build
your fantasy worlds,which all the stuff on my
channel is adjacent tothat or part of that process.
But I sort of started by when you have afantasy society or fantasy kingdom world,
(02:35):
whatever, and you want to pick some sortof...
consistent, like, naming forpeople and places.
And it all started with thatand sort of picking inspirational
places around the world tokind of base the names off of.
So, like, one of the earlier projects Ihave that I started with that I'm going to
redo the naming for now, but all my nameswere based off Croatian origins.
(03:01):
And so you'll see a lot that have,like... What are the big ones right now?
Like, Celtic is a really big one rightnow.
A lot of people don't... A lot of peopledon't do, like, Latin-based things.
Like, you take sources.
But as I started to learn more about itand learn more about, I guess,
the way names originate at all, like,there's a lot of meaning packed into that.
(03:25):
And there's a lot of, like, if you're nota native speaker of the language,
like, you won't pick up onthings that you're potentially
using that could be problematicor just wouldn't make sense.
And it's a missed opportunity.
In my opinion, to be very intentionalabout those things.
So I started learning how to do naminglanguages where you're, you know,
(03:46):
start with a base, like, you know,phonology and you go through and just
build out, like, what those names wouldlook like to give them a cohesive,
like, look and feel while not beingentirely modern.
And so they don't have that, like,where it pushes you out of it,
where you're in this, like, you know,medieval-esque fantasy world.
(04:08):
And someone's named, like, Sally orsomething like that, right?
Like, things that fit in the world.
And then that sort of tumbled me down onan eventual path that led me to actual,
like, closer to real conlanging.
(laugh)
Closer.
We'll talk about that.
So...
(04:31):
When I hear naming language, I have acertain thing in mind, because this is a
thing that has been talked about in theconlanging community.
For a while, it's like a, Ithink it's a category on the
LCS jobs board is, like,getting just a naming language.
But tell me about what a naming languagemeans to you.
(04:53):
What are you looking for?
What are you trying to develop in order toget that baseline to get consistent names?
So the main thing that I dofor, at least how I do naming
languages for, which are,again, all from my books.
Right?
So I don't use IPA at all, just because...
(05:13):
-I mean, maybe one day I'll be, like, super-Hurts me
-famous and my books will be, like, in a movie.-That hurts me.
That hurts me.
And then I'll care how they're pronounced.
But for the most part, Ijust, everything is just default
how a generic Englishspeaker would pronounce things.
And so it's mostly which letters or,like, sounds I include.
I do a lot with...
And I guess this is one ofthe differences for me with
(05:35):
doing a naming languagefor, like, a book versus...
like, probably a more general naminglanguage.
But you only have a few examples in abook, right?
Like, you'll have maybe a few dozen names,whether it's people's names, place names.
So I try and really make them verydistinct.
So I'll pick certain sounds, a lot ofrules.
I'll cut a lot of things out in terms ofthe sounds.
(05:59):
And then I'll come up with,I guess, probably a lot of
structure for, like, thenumber of syllables in a name.
I'll do, like, percentages of,like...
Okay, this country or this group's namestend to be, like, two syllables and they
tend to be, you know, very short,like, CVC or, like, CVCV, something like
(06:21):
that that's very condensed and one will belonger.
Like, just playing a lot more on thedifferences of it.
And I don't get into roots or meaning ofnames.
I'll do that for place names very simply.
But the names themselves are mostly justto have, like...
Like, an aesthetic that appeals to both,like, differentiating different cultural
(06:44):
groups and different, like, nationalgroups in my books.
And also for having, I guess, like,an aesthetic feel that kind of matches
what I'm trying to portray from,like, a societal level.
And then, like, extra bits and bobs,like, if there's different, like,
titles or ways toaddress people or, like,
that sort of thing thatwouldn't be translated.
(07:05):
Like, if you assume the book was in thatlanguage.
Originally, but then translated intoEnglish.
Some of those things thatwould, like, linger, I'll come up with.
Normally, like, titles oraddresses if there's different,
like, your lord and ladyequivalent or whatnot.
Yeah.
I will say, like, I interjected becauseyou said you don't use IPA.
(07:29):
I was like, that hurts.
Because of me as a phonetician.
But watching your streams.
It's not like you are not...
using any, like, phonological theoryat all.
You know, you have learned, you know,all of the stuff.
And you make, like, a phoneme chart likewe would recognize.
(07:51):
But you are specificallytargeting, like, English
speakers and how theywould tend to pronounce things.
Which, it's...
I approach from the other direction.
But I think there are some ideas that Ihave.
With constructing, like, my languages forD&D that are similar.
(08:14):
Which we could talk about.
But in terms of, like, how I choose toromanize things.
And what distinctions I choose to put in.
But going back.
So, you say that you consider meaning morefor geographic terms.
(08:36):
Mm-hmm.
Than for...
For personal names.
Yeah.
Do...
Like...
Why... Why is that exactly?
It's mostly just from a patterningperspective for me.
So, like, with naming people.
Like, I mean, I guessif it became a thing
(08:56):
where I wanted thereto be, like, a plot point.
Or something where someone's name issignificant.
Like, the meaning of their name issignificant.
Because, like, I watch a lot of,like...
I guess...
I guess, like, historical, like,K-dramas and C-dramas and stuff like that.
And they're, like...
It tends to be, like, a little storypoint.
Like, what the main character's name isand stuff like that.
(09:18):
But that's not something I've ever used.
If I did something like that, then I mightthink harder about what the names mean.
But usually it's just what you call aperson.
Whereas, like, with place names,people might pick up on patterns.
Like, if they were lookingat a map, they'd be like, oh,
this place that's a mountainand this place has a mountain.
And has, like, a similar...
pieces in it, right?
(09:39):
Where those might mean something like hillsor mountains or place of great heights.
You know, where you could pick up on thosesimilarities and gain meaning.
Whereas, I don't expectreaders to ever pick up on
similar things or similarbits and character names.
And be like, oh, yes, theymust have some sort of
philosophical similarityor something between it.
(10:02):
You know?
I mean, yeah.
Place names, like... If youdrill down the etymology...
The etymologies of place names, often theyare quite, like, boring and on the nose.
The big mountain.
Right.
The snowy mountains.
Right.
The other big mountain.
The long river, things like that.
But I find it interesting.
(10:24):
You talk about K-dramas and C-dramas.
You're talking about them usingsignificant meanings to names.
Those are cultures, also, that are morelikely to have transparent names.
Like, straight up, like, if I think of myChinese friends and I look at the
(10:44):
characters, I can know what their namemeans.
My wife's name means beautiful.
All that kind of thing.
Which is, it happens in English,but it's not as common.
We have a lot of,like, historical names
that, like, there's anetymology for my name.
And there's an etymology for your name.
But nobody ever thinks about it whenthey're naming their child that.
(11:07):
And I think there's an interesting sortof cultural thing to talk about in that.
Because, like, maybethe people who speak your
conlangs might have moretransparent names than we do.
But the audience thatyou're reading is used to
(11:28):
just taking a name asanother word to memorize.
Right?
Right.
Exactly.
So, like, if I wanted that to be,like...
You know, because it depends on what...
It depends on what youwant to focus on where, you
know, cultures are obviouslyincredibly complicated.
But just like worldbuilding in general,like, when you're portraying a society and
a culture, you have to kind of pick andchoose what to include in the book.
(11:50):
Because, like, you can'tjust throw everything
out there because itwould be overwhelming.
They wouldn't latch on to anything.
Like, it's just...
That's where you get into info dumping.
So I like to choosespecific pieces to really
focus on and haveit, like, feel immersive.
Even if it's not, like, everything.
So I'm sure at some point I'll do...
And especially as Iexpand my understanding
(12:10):
of ways names canwork in a culture and stuff.
But where that would be a point where thatwould come up and that would actually be
shown whether or not it actually is and isjust, like, hidden through the filter of,
like, it being written in a book,you know?
Another piece of thatis, like, how much do you
(12:34):
get into, on the onehand, like, naming things?
Like, naming conventions, like, whetherthere are surnames or patronyms or whatever.
And also, do you do any...
How much do you do, like, morphology?
I guess for place names you kind of doneed some morphosyntax stuff.
But personal names can depend on thelanguage whether there's anything, right?
(12:59):
Yeah, so it kind of... It's been verydifferent for me for every project.
And again, like, I'm still, like,the most, like, preschool...
Naming language, conlanger, whatever youwant to call it.
Like, I'm still very much learningeverything.
But so far, every project has been verydifferent for me.
And it depends a lot on how much opportunityI have to portray things in the book.
(13:23):
So, for example, one of the big projectsI'm working on, the one where the spell
language that I'm making is part of thatproject.
I also have three other naming languagesin there.
And so, two of them are mostly just forside characters.
Because there's a few people fromdifferent, like, different countries that
would have a different sort of naming feelto them.
(13:46):
So, I've built out just enough of theirculture.
Like, I think one ofthe names, it's just
straight up, like, it's,like, a couple syllables.
It's a very strict pattern.
There is... It's a verylimited set of, like, sounds.
And then it's, like, they're...
It's, like, they have a different namingsurname pattern for if they...
(14:07):
They are from one of the, like,jungle cities versus one of the,
like, coastal cities.
Because that's a big societaldifferentiation in their culture.
So, like, I put that as, like, adistinctive thing in their, like, surnames.
But other than that, it's just, like,there's nothing complicated about it.
It's just straight generation of, like,base syllables that just get stuck together.
(14:29):
And then...
Because, like, there's only going to be,like, four or five names.
And they'll never get explained in depth.
So, it's, like, a little bit of...
Something.
But then... For the otherones, I'll get more complicated.
I have...
I don't know.
I use a program when I do this that I'vewritten that has a lot of rules to make
things sound more, like, Englishpronounceable.
(14:51):
So, like, there's a lot of...
Oh, what are they called?
Like, when you have the multiple vowels,the diphthongs?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, different diphthongs that Idon't allow.
Different, like, consonant clusters that Iwon't allow when syllables are merged.
Like...
Not quite, like, sandhi-level things.
But, like, really basic stuff that Ijust...
I toss anything that ends up beinggenerated with that in it.
(15:15):
But then my, like, more complicated onesthat I have a lot of, like, things being
generated in it and I need it to be lessstrict.
Then I have some generalrules that I'll apply to,
like, when I'm compoundingand stuff like that.
That'll tweak it a little bit to make itwork.
But most of it is really basic and it'sjust straight generate a syllable,
generate two syllables.
(15:36):
Sometimes there's different rules for, like, if it's
a starting versus,like, an ending syllable.
Like, if there's certain letters or soundsthat aren't allowed, then it will handle
that in the generators and all that basedoff how many syllables the name will have.
And your program is an interesting thing.
You keep saying it's just for you.
But, like, a lot of conlangers have...
(15:59):
Who have some programmingexpertise have come up with
some kind of program thatassists other conlangers.
Do you think you wouldever, like, build a generator that
other people would be more,like, useful for other people?
I've had a lot of people ask about that.
(16:20):
It is something that I would potentiallyconsider in the future for just the very
strict naming language part of it becausethat's all very reusable.
I would have to do a lot ofchanges because, like, I have a
lot of rules that are justbaked into, like, what I find...
pronounceable in general and also,like, I don't use IPA.
(16:40):
So, like, you would have to...
Like, I will have representations of,like, CH is, like, one letter or one sound
in my program because, like, with IPA,like, CH is, like, that's a sound versus,
like... Like, I make someof those differentiations.
But a lot of it, like, I feel like ifpeople were actually doing it, they'd, like.
(17:04):
It's just so strict in how I do it to makeit make sense for me that I'm not sure if
tons of people would be interested in itand also, like, all the stuff that I do
for, like, the spell language where Iactually have, like, grammatical
structures and stuff like that in it.
None of that's in, like, the base program.
So, if I... I don't know.
And I'd also need a UI because I just,like, I hit the run button and it vomits
(17:27):
everything out that I want in theterminal.
So, like, it's very far away from everbeing usable by someone who isn't a Java
programmer withmy... exact same goals.
But it's something I'm considering to oneday, like, people could check it out at
GitLab or something, you know,if they really want to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(17:48):
It probably would need some morecustomizability and some more, yeah.
Yes.
But that's a good segue to the next topicis...
So, you started out with just naminglanguages.
Now, you have done a spell language.
Yes.
(18:08):
And can you tell me about your approach tocreating a spell language?
So, my big project and, like, the goals ofthe book are important here where I...
It's...
I kind of call it, like, Six of Crows,but for nerds.
And so, I...
(18:29):
It's sort of, like, an excuse for me toreally dive into the, like, world building
magic system linguistic stuff of thisworld.
Because it's very plot relevant.
So, I have, like, one of my characters isa linguist.
One is, you know, a witch or aspellcaster.
One's an alchemist.
Like, they have different specialties thatthey're, like, super, you know,
(18:51):
super great at.
And one of the thingsthey have to do is they have
these grimoires that havecodified spells in them.
And the only way to, you know,complete the heist that they're trying to
do at the end of the book is to translateenough of this text to...
Basically figure out, like, what spellswere originally used, what spells can they
use to then, you know, break past this,you know, whatever.
(19:15):
And so, I knew that I needed to,like, since translation is an active part
in the plot of the book, and also infiguring out, like, there's obviously
going to be mistakes, things they dowrong, things they use incorrectly.
So, I wanted to createan actual spell language
where you're seeing thespells that people are using.
(19:36):
You're hearing them.
You're hearing the pieces, and you'reseeing them in the book.
And I wanted them to be small enough thatpeople could look at them and,
like, maybe pick up on some patterns andmaybe sort of see, like, oh, like,
I understand why that didn't do what theythought it was going to do.
And also just for me to understand.
(laugh)
Like, I have to havevery rigid structures in
(19:56):
everything that I dofrom a magic perspective.
So, like, I have a whole chemistry systemfor my potions in that book just because I
need to understand, like, how to doeverything.
If the reader never understands it.
So, I kind of just started forthe spells with, like, I wanted
it to be able to, like, not bethese super long sentences.
(20:16):
Like, I wanted it to be, like,short little things that people could pick
up on patterns a little bitmore easily, but would also lend
itself towards having a lotof mistakes and translations.
So, that's sort of, like, the goal that itstarted with of, like, you know,
you would have the spirit name that you'recommanding or asking to do something.
(20:36):
You have your commandclause and then you have
the spell, like, of whatyou're asking them to do.
And then, so, very early on when I waschatting about it with the people in my
Discord, they were like, oh, you shouldlook into, like, polysynthetic languages
because that wouldsort of fit that scheme of
how I wanted it to bepresented in the book.
So, then I, like, watched some videos onthat and then, like, from there I just
(20:59):
sort of worked with these, like,like, I basically built, like,
a formula almost and started expanding,like, you know.
So, like, you know, saying something likeburn that tree is pretty simple compared
to, like, oh, I want you to, you know,water all the plants in this greenhouse
until, you know, the plants are happy,right?
Like, very different levels.
And I've sort of been building up the,I guess, like, sentence or grammatical
(21:22):
complexity so I can have some of thosemore complicated spells in it within the
frame of, like, a polysynthetic language.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so, that is interesting.
I found that when, at least in the introstream that you did that for that,
(21:43):
it was interesting thatyou were talking about, like,
this very formulaic structurethat you just outlined.
Yeah.
And you were just going to be,like, I'm just going to stick to building
out the structures that I need for thisformula.
Mm-hmm.
And, like, saying, like, you need somekind...
(22:06):
Kind of, like, imperative form because ofthis and such stuff like that.
Whereas, like, I kind of did talk aboutwhat structures were important at the
beginning of my, like, Tongues and Runesstreams.
But I ended up creating full languages,like, I created a whole Draconic language
(22:26):
before I started making spells.
And I just want to talk about,like...
It is interesting...
That you have this, like, spell formula.
Mm-hmm.
That's two pieces to this.
First thing is, like, do youfind times when that sort
(22:49):
of, like, rigid structurehas been limiting to you?
And also, have you runinto times when it's you
unexpectedly needed morestructure than you thought you did?
Mm-hmm.
So, for this project, and, you know,I don't know if, like, what the cause and
(23:13):
effect was, like, what came first,chicken or the egg, whatever.
But the use case and the relevancy of thelanguage in my book is very, very...
It is very formulaic.
Like, it is...
It is not a language that people speak.
It is not a language that any modernperson in my book is fluent in.
It's something that, you know,there's a group of people way back when
(23:34):
that used to understand it and wrote thesegrimoires.
Mm-hmm.
But for the most part, it's the only languagethat can basically be heard by spirits.
But the spirits don't talk back to you.
There's no, like...
There's no other way forthis language to really be used
within the context of my bookthan literally just these spells.
(23:54):
I could, like, create something where itcould be relevant, but, like, it's not...
It doesn't make any sense for my plot.
So, that already was very, very limited.
Um...
And also, like, again,I joked about this,
but, like, I'm thepreschooler of conlangers.
Like, this was a very much, like,a baby step of just, you know,
(24:16):
trying to expand...
Like, going from naminglanguages to something that has
literally any grammar at all,like, is a huge leap for me.
So, like, I've been trying to,like, really take it slow and kind of
expand things out so that I understandthem.
Like, the idea of making a full conlangis, like, so overwhelming to me.
Like, I know I've gotten...
Like, my...
(24:36):
At this point now, my spelllanguage has, like, a lot of
stuff in it, but it definitelyisn't a full conlang yet.
But I've sort of...
I guess I've been doing it, like,with the baby steps, right?
Like, where you mentioned, like,running into things where you need more.
And there's nothingin my formula that
necessarily makes itnot possible to expand it.
(25:00):
So, I've found that, like, I mostly do iton streams.
With a lot of people on my stream thatactually know things about language,
which is really necessary.
But every time I've needed to go,like...
Like, I started with those really simplespells.
And when I've added more complicated ones,like ones with conditional clauses or,
like, futurist... Future, like,clauses to end the spell state.
(25:26):
Like, stuff like that where it's gottenmore complicated.
I've just sort of been expanding it bit bybit and adding how, like...
Like, the framework...
The frameworks I have are there,like, for how the language would work.
It's just I haven't developed those otherparts of it or how it would fit into it.
So, like, it hasn't necessarily beenlimiting.
I just have to, as I need to do anotherthing, I have to then figure out,
(25:50):
okay, like, how am I actually going to dothat?
Like, I know it's head finaland I know that because
it's polysynthetic, thesetypes of things group together.
So, like, even though it's a differenttype of clause, these determiners get
pulled in with the verb parts.
And, like, I can reuse the rules I have toexpand it.
It just...
I kind of have to take it with those babysteps.
(26:11):
But it hasn't, like... I haven't raninto anything that I'm like, well, dang.
I can't... You know,this is insurmountable.
I started out too limited.
I haven't ran into that.
It is interesting to hear your perspectiveas someone who is a writer first.
(26:33):
And then decided to do conlangs just forwhat you needed.
Yeah.
Because for me, like, conlanging is my artform.
And then I have tried to put it intonovels, but it's, you know...
Yeah, it's hard.
It hasn't...
I haven't published anything about thatyet.
(26:55):
And now I am making conlangs on YouTube andtrying to put them out there for people.
For people to use in D&D campaigns.
So, it's interesting to see yourperspective and saying, okay, well,
really, I just have a very strictlydefined structure that I want to work with.
(27:25):
And that's where I'm going to live for therest of the project.
Whereas for me, like...
But I mean, I want to...
It may be also down to different stylesfor the spells you're writing.
Because you had at the outset a formula inmind that all spells would follow.
(27:48):
Whereas for me, it's like I have generalideas of what kinds of statements,
what kinds of phrases will be there.
But I build out a wholelanguage and build out some
poetry conventions in order to,like, accomodate what I might need.
So, it's interesting to see that differentapproach.
(28:14):
Can you tell me moreabout the interaction with the
chat and how you arelearning some things from them?
Like, can you come up...
Can you give me some more, like,specific instances of where you had a
question and someone knew something thatyou...
You need to know?
(28:35):
Because I have that experience as well.
Yeah.
Like, I'm trying to build some,like, not based on Celtic language,
but callbacks to Celtic languages in mycurrent language.
And I got a couple of people here andthere that actually speak Celtic
languages, which is useful because Idon't.
So, like, for you, what are some,like, specific examples of things where
(28:59):
you had a question and someone deliveredinformation that helped you along?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I will say that probably,like, a very large percentage of this
stuff has come from the chat from some wayor another.
But the way it'll typically go is I have,like, an idea of what I need to do, right?
(29:20):
So, maybe I'm like, okay, we need tomake... figure out how to actually create
the verb roots of my, like, verb chunks orverb clauses or whatever.
And so, I'm like, okay, well, you know...
I need to find a way to, like,how do I want to do this?
Do I want to have specific words thatencompass every verb?
(29:43):
Do I want to have, like,something more where I
have, like, roots thatthen get turned into verbs?
And I was leaningtowards wanting to have,
more restricted,like, base roots to it.
So, someone was like, oh, like,what if you just have, you know,
a bunch of things, then you useverbalizing suffixes...
(30:04):
to actually turn all of these words intoverbs?
And I'm like, oh, that's cool.
And, like, I googled it.
And I'm like, yeah, that fits what I'mtrying to do.
So, we started setting them up.
People were throwingout ideas of, like, oh,
like, what if you havethis kind of a verbalizer?
And what are you going to do if it'salready a verb and you can't, like...
Like, I had some examples that we wouldtry to, like...
Things that I wanted to be able totranslate at the end.
(30:25):
And one of them was, like, stir thispotion, right?
This liquid.
And so, I'm like, well, stir.
Like, how would I verbalize a noun?
A basic noun to make a verb out of that?
And they're like, well, okay, you need abase verbalizing suffix that just is,
like, a default if the word is already averb.
And so, it was justvery much a lot of back
(30:45):
and forth of, like, Iknow sort of what I want.
But I have no idea linguistically how toaccomplish that.
And so, everyone in thechat would, like, point out
ideas of, like, oh, like,here are some options.
And then I'd think through, like,these are the spells I want to create.
Do I need that?
Can I use something I already have forthat?
And they're basically count as,like, like, if a person actually knows
(31:08):
stuff, you know, and has ideas,that the chat is my brain.
And I'm just, like, making the decisions.
Because I know nothing.
Like, I know nothing.
(laugh)
But surely you're learning some things.
Yeah, I'm definitely learning.
Like, I'm learning a lot.
I definitely, like, grammatically,linguistically understand my spell
(31:29):
language a lot more than I do,like, English, for example.
But the way I think, and this is why Ithink I'm a very unlikely conlanger in
general, but, like, I don't memorizethings very well, and I don't make,
like, connections between things verywell, and I think it's, like, I have,
like, ADD or whatever, so, like,my brain just doesn't do that very well,
(31:51):
so, like, learning language in general forme has always been very, what's the term,
like, intrinsic versus extrinsic, like,where I don't learn it through rules.
So, like, I really struggle.
I really struggle during, like,language classes growing up, but,
like, in the cases where I had to actuallycommunicate with people in other
languages, like, I picked up languages alot faster that way, or I picked it up
(32:12):
from reading, but, like, so, like,it's definitely been a struggle for me,
but that's why, a part of why on mystreams I have, like, that big PowerPoint
where everything's super documented,and everything in my program is a lot
more, like, rigid and documented than itprobably needs to be, and that's just
because I will forget the second I move toanother language.
(32:33):
So, like, I'm like, what did we,what did we decide there?
Like, my chat has to remind me constantlythat I'm, like, head final versus,
you know, head initial or whatever,and I'm like, crap, what is this again?
Everyone's like, it's head final.
You're good.
Just keep going.
And I'm like, oh, okay, okay.
Like, I just, I don't know.
My memory's not great.
So, like, it's slow, slowgoing, but...
(32:55):
Yeah, yeah.
And that is interesting.
I mean, but the thing is...
Whether you do on head initial or headfinal, that seems like a basic thing,
but there are a lot of moving parts tocreating a language.
Even if you are trying to be, even if youare trying to minimize your effort and do
(33:21):
this, there's still going to be a lot ofstuff.
Because, I mean, how many spells are youworking with here?
Um, I mean, I haven't created that many.
I probably have a couple dozen that I'veactually created.
But the, the way I'mbuilding it, like, the actual...
I have a differentiation betweenthe, like, grammatical words.
(33:43):
There's, like, a term for this,but I can't remember what it is.
My chat taught me it at some point,and I forgot.
But, like, the grammatical words versusthe, like, root words, you know?
Like, my base nouns and my base verbs.
Like, those, like, that part of thelexicon is pretty basic right now,
just because I haven't had to build a lotof things out.
But...
I have all the, most of the grammaticalpart of it all developed and figured out.
(34:08):
So, like, with just generating a word for,like, tree, I could make, you know,
tons more spells because I have all theother building blocks.
Right, right, right.
But that is, that is quite a lot of work,a lot, a lot of things to build,
and there's a lot of things to keep trackof.
And, you know, even, like, experiencedconlangers can forget about...
(34:33):
How things work.
You talk to David and Jesse, and they're,they talk about how important it is to
have good documentation, because they havehad situations where they've forgotten
things, especially David, because he's,he's a little bit less organized.
Yeah.
(34:54):
And, you know, if I were to leave alanguage alone for a while and come back
to it, I might struggle with certainaspects of it, you know, like,
I go back to Ndăkaga, if I,
if I took, like, a year off of it,and I come back to it, even though I know
how it works, like, the tripartite cases,I'd go in there, and, like, "What do I use,
(35:20):
accusative or nominative here?
I'm not sure."
Things like that.
So, it is, it is interesting that you'vegot sort of the second brain in chat,
and they are helping you through it
I will ask, do you think in the futurethat you might develop to a point where
(35:44):
you want to create a full language thatmaybe you introduce some dialogue into
your book, and you want the, want the fulllanguage for that?
So, I think, I think it depends.
And I think, again, I think it's all verystory specific.
I imagine that all the different parts.
Parts of a language Iwill create at some point,
(36:06):
whether or not they're inthe same language or not.
But like one of the things that I've,I've thought about with, like if I was
having like a story where there was like,you know, two political groups and there
was a lot of interactionsand like one of the plot
things is that they don't speakthe same language, right?
Like where it would actually be relevantto have someone be talked at in another
(36:31):
language that they don't necessarilyunderstand.
Like, I could see having to develop like afull conlang for that.
But the, the limitations with like writinga book is that like the reader doesn't
speak the language.
So it is meaningless to them.
And so they will, in most cases,right, they're just going to skim.
Like if you're reading andthen you have something
(36:52):
that's in like those italicother language, you know...
Gibbely bits, whatever, they're going to belike, I don't know what that means,
skim it, and then go to the next line,right?
Whereas, like, you can do it like in alimited way, right?
But like, someone's notgoing to like, read a book and
be sitting there and beinglike, how do I pronounce that?
What does that mean?
Like, if it's in another language.
(37:14):
So I've, I don't know if Iwould ever find a case for
like a full, like 100% fullconlang would be relevant.
I would think that it'd be most likely ifI end up doing that.
Like, what do they call them?
But like a universe where you have a lotof stories that are set in a larger
universe, like the Grishaverse,the Cosmere, like in those cases,
(37:36):
if I had a language that was going to beused throughout a lot of things,
then I could see creatinga full conlang because I
use it in different little bitsand pieces everywhere.
But all the books I've done so far,like single books, maybe duologies,
where I'm not going tohave a lot of opportunities to
reuse a languagein different ways.
So it's like, however,it's, it's relevant to use
(37:59):
it in this is kind of beenthe limitation so far.
Yeah.
So that that is interesting.
And that is something that I have thoughtabout in terms of like, where,
where, where in mediawould, would there be more of a
demand for like a languagesketch versus a larger conlang?
(38:24):
And it.
It does sort of the, the, the idea of howmuch you're going to spend time with this
particular culture fits into it,you go with, you go with something like
Star Wars, and Star Wars has not had abad, not had a great record for languages,
(38:46):
the way that they, they do it is not whatthey, the way they did it at the start,
definitely was not,
to my liking.
More recently,there have been some, I think,
I think there is a Mandalorianlanguage and there is,
there's like there's a signlanguage for the Tusken Raiders.
(39:07):
I'm not sure what the quality of it is.
But yeah, but also with Star Wars,definitely, I would approach it
differently, but there are all theselittle snippets of different languages
that are, that are spoken all over theplace that.
One character says one line and it's done.
(39:29):
And it's like, okay, I would makesomething, but I would make like a sketch
that has enough to get that one line fromthe script in.
And then I'd have like a variety ofdifferent ways to do names, which
obviously they don't do.
(laugh)
(39:50):
But then you go with something likeDefiance, which Dave Peterson worked on.
You have like these, Ithink it's like five alien
cultures together that theyare all going to be there.
So you kind of want todevelop that more because
(40:11):
like a TV series didn'tlast very long, but so yeah.
I can understand that thing.
The one thing about like people will justgloss over the conlang text is that is
true for most readers, but the people whoget into it, and it depends on how popular
(40:37):
your book gets, how many of those peopleyou encounter, right?
But the people who do get into it canreally get into it and start to analyze.
Even with very small amountof data, they're going to at
least be looking closely andseeing if you are consistent.
(40:58):
Right.
Right.
Like there's definitely like, you have to,how much of that kind of stuff you put in,
like you really have to gauge by what typeof readers you have, but also like
narrative focus, I think is, is prettyimportant in that too.
Because like, if say, if you have someonewho is a princess of kingdom A
And they're shipped over to kingdom B andthey're trying to navigate this really
(41:22):
high, like high stakes tense situation,but they don't speak their language.
The things that the people are saying tothem as they're trying to understand
what's happening, like that has a lot ofnarrative focus where like, if someone is
saying something like you might pick upon, like you would have more narrative
impetus to try and figureout what's going on as
(41:43):
the characters trying tofigure it out versus like.
If someone's like walking through a barand there's
just like side conversationsthat have no relevancy.
Like there's like different weights ofthat too, that I think would affect how
much people would focus on it and thushow, you know, for a general average,
like how much peoplewould be likely to, you know,
(42:04):
really try and figureit out and focus on it.
Yeah.
I, I, and it's like that for every aspectof world building, I think.
Yeah.
And it kind of can depend.
And it can depend on what kind of storyyou're telling too.
I can understand theperspective of if it's not as pot
(42:27):
relevant, you're not goingto spend as much time on it.
Like thinking about other aspects of worldbuilding, like there are people who will
like laser in also onlike descriptions of
clothing and try to fitthem into a time period.
Even, even if it's like a fantasy storythat doesn't necessarily fit into the same
(42:51):
technology level as people are expecting.
Yeah.
But like how often are clothes andimportant plot point.
Outside of certaincircumstances, political
drama with court intrigue,it might be important.
(43:16):
But it's, it's.
It's like... it's like variable.
Things like, you know, you do a lot ofwork on geology and stuff and building
your planets and, you know, how much ofthe natural resources are important.
(43:41):
People talk about, you know, George R.
R.
Martin famously criticized Tolkien on,like, what is Aragorn's tax policy?
Well, the style of story that Tolkien wastelling is not concerned about that.
Right.
Yeah.
(laugh)
So, like, me comingin as a conlanger... I'm
(44:05):
sort of trying to getyour perspective on that.
Me coming in as a conlanger and as alinguist...
I'm more focused on thelinguistic aspect and, like,
linguistic realism thana lot of people would be.
But I can understand, like, if you aredealing with all these different moving
(44:28):
parts in the world building,then sometimes you might
have different ideas of, like,how much this is important.
Yeah.
And I think...
I think one of the ways that has reallyhelped me in going from, like,
someone who spent, like, seven yearsworking on the world building for a world,
(44:50):
like, back when I was first seriouslywriting, to being like, you know,
I'm not accomplishing anything by doingthis, to being a lot more focused and
being able to get through more projectsand stuff like that.
But I find that, like, readers have onlyso much, like, mental capacity to kind of
pick up on things.
And I don't mean that as, like, a negative,but I mean, like, if they're reading and
(45:13):
they want to be immersed in a story,right?
Like, everything youchange that they have to be
thinking about is going toslow them down a little bit.
And there's different, like, genreexpectations, right?
Like, a high fantasy, like, a reader goinginto that is going to be preparing to,
like, hold a lot of stuff in their brainversus, like, you know, another genre.
(45:33):
defaults right now in thegenres because, like, if it's a...
High medieval, you know, European-basedfey realm, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot of expectationsthat readers already know
with all of that stuff thatyou don't have to explain.
(45:54):
Like, you don't have to explain how amedieval society works.
You don't have to explain how fey works.
Like, if you go with all those,like, default things...
Yeah.
And everything that you do that's,like, different.
So, like, if you go into, like,a Sanderson book, for example,
like, you have to pick up on so manythings that changes society.
...that changes the way that you have tointerpret what's happening.
(46:15):
Understanding how that magic system works.
Understanding how the society works.
Understanding the sayings they make.
All that extra stuff.
A reader's only going to be able to pullso much of that at a time.
And having to be veryintentional about, okay, what are
the things you're going toask your reader to understand?
And if it's not relevantto the story, you're best
(46:37):
served choosing thingsthat are more relevant.
It's something that atleast helps my brain with
choosing and beingintentional about that stuff.
Because it doesn't have to be plotrelevant.
Because having a good tone, having animmersive feel, having a certain
experience of readingthe prose, there's a lot
(46:57):
of different goals withstorytelling in general.
And choosing what things you want toinclude for those different goals and how
much you're going to ask your reader tofigure out for all of that.
If you're like, okay, I want you tounderstand this whole new type of time.
We're going to have a whole differentcalendar, a whole different clock,
(47:18):
the way time works is going to bedifferent.
We're going to have tons of sayings abouttime.
Your reader's going to have to learn thatand understand that and keep that up in
their mind as they're reading so thatevery time it comes up, they're like,
ah, yes, so that links back to this andhow I understand it.
It's like, okay, that's a week, right?
And if there's no reason to do that,that...
(47:40):
Mental energy could bespent, like, understanding
a conlang instead that'smore relevant, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
That is interesting, because, like,talking about the way that time works,
you know, I go to, I think of Farscape.
(48:05):
And I don't even remember what all theunits were, but I think there is,
like, a unit of time that they use that's,like, about half an hour.
And you do eventually, you can get into itand kind of understand it, but it's not
necessarily brought up that often.
(48:27):
I think there was aparticular episode where it
was, like, particularlyimportant to track the time.
And they mentioned this over and over.
And I read one of MattColville's books, and he had,
like, a system where hehad something called a turn.
(48:50):
And he had a whole, like,explanation of how it's based
on the rotation of one ofthe moons of the planet.
And it's really interesting.
I don't know how relevant it was.
It definitely did givethe feeling of this is a
different world and tiedin some other things.
(49:13):
So it's...
And so that's what you were talking about.
It doesn't necessarily have to be plotrelevant if it gives you a different feel.
But at the same time, like, there could bea situation where you have something like
that, but it's, like, brought up.
And it's not...central to the story.
So people don't reallytalk in time references
(49:36):
or distance referencesor things like that.
Right.
Right.
But we're talking about sort of the world-building iceberg.
Yeah.
And how much below thewaterline do you actually need
to construct before youactually write your story?
Because if it's, like,if you do so too much,
(49:59):
then you're spendingall your time on that.
Yeah.
I definitely agree with that a lot.
And I think, like, there'sdefinitely that difference
between things that are therefor aesthetic purpose, right?
Like, you'll mention something becauseit's part of the world.
Like, oh, like, times work slightlydifferent.
(50:21):
But the reader doesn't needto memorize and remember
the specific details tounderstand things in the book.
It's just, you know, like, set dressing,sort of.
Yeah.
To the... To the, you know,culture or the society and stuff.
Like, there's definitely a differencebetween, like, that side of world-building
and then the, like, you need to rememberthis because if you don't understand this,
(50:42):
you are not going to understand any of thethings that are going to happen, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you can think about, like,things like how, like, if people are
taking quotes from your book out ofcontext, how many, like, extra words are
there that people are not going tounderstand?
So, it is very interesting to,like, think in those terms, too,
(51:06):
of the presentation of the world throughthe story.
We're running close to time, but I want tomention for the people who are watching on
video, there is a globe behind you,and that does not look like Earth.
(51:26):
Is that your world?
That's one of the ones I'm building,yeah.
I think that's actually the...
Potion World one, where that little islandis where my story is taking place.
Oh, I think... have I seen that stream?
Have you... I think you werestreaming building up, like,
(51:48):
the flora and fauna and theninto the cultural stuff of that?
Yeah, yeah.
So, I've done a lot of... as I've beenbuilding out the, like, societal...
Like, how I want to link going from...
I don't like geographic determinism,like, at all.
Like, if you go into my guides,like, that's not...
(52:10):
Right.
Right, but, like, there's some, like,things that, like, I like it to matter.
So, like, I like it to be, like,multi-source for, like, how, like,
societies and cultures develop and stufflike that.
But, yeah, this is the one where I wasplaying around with a lot of those
concepts for figuringout, like, how I want
to have all that linkedand mapped and stuff.
I think I have a few videos where I'mplaying around with this world in general.
(52:33):
Yeah.
That's really cool.
How did you get a globe like that?
I just, like, bought a globe, like,a regular one, and I sanded it down.
And then I used Sharpie to go over the lat-long lines.
And then I just exported, like...
I put my map in, like, 3D software andexported it in a bunch of different,
like, projections that would make iteasier to see different parts of it with
(52:56):
the same lat-long lines.
And then I'm just, like, hand-putting iton the...
the globe.
Oh.
Oh, you drew it by hand onto the globe?
Yes.
Okay.
That's...
That's amazing.
It's a lot of effort.
Yeah.
That is, like, super interesting.
(53:17):
That is super cool.
It'll be done in five years.
Yeah.
One last thing I want to say is, like,we were talking about, like, the limits.
I kind of think that I have a reversething going on with my own stuff because,
for me, in Tongues and Runes, the languageis the focus.
(53:44):
And then I'm saying, like, a lot of otherworld-building things, I am, like,
being selective about what I determineabout that because, on the one hand,
language touches everything.
You kind of have to...
If you're building a language,you have to kind of know all the things.
However, I'm making theselanguages for other people's D&D
(54:08):
campaigns that I don't knowanything about the setting for.
So I'm thinking about, like, I can't besuper specific about geography.
I can't be super specific about,like, the structure of the planet in the
prime material plane.
(54:30):
I have to sort of select.
And, like, for, like, Ndakaga,for dragons, a lot of the world-building
that I did end up doing was, like, changingthings about dragon physiology, right?
I made them...
I gave them magnetoreception.
(54:50):
I gave them the...
I determined that they are obligatecarnivores, which I don't know if D&D...
actually states that in lore, but it makessense.
And I, like, gave them tetrachromaticvision.
And then for the fey one, I'm like,I'm not going to talk about who
(55:15):
individuals are in the fey world,but I felt a little bit more free of
putting my stamp on, okay, this is myconception of what they call the Feywild.
I'll call it Faerie.
And it's...
It's also, like, my world-buildingdecisions end up being, like, in the
(55:38):
service of being more neutral,too.
Right.
So I won't elaborate too much about thisbecause this podcast is about you,
but it is interesting that I have,like, a mirror image of that going on
where, like, I'm building language,but other world-building stuff I have
(55:58):
reasons to be sketchy on.
Yeah, it's definitely one of those thingswhere there's a lot of different ways to
go about it, and it's something that I runacross both with conlanging, but also with
world -building in general.
Like, I have that very intense,like, physical world-based, like,
world-building guide ofcreating a physical world from
plate tectonics to aircirculation to ocean circulation.
(56:20):
And there's a lot of people that will takethat way further.
Like, they'll go in and do, like, Gplates and build, like, tectonic history.
And, like, they go really hard because,like, that is the thing that they're doing.
Whereas like in myprojects, I don't actually
use my whole guideon my personal projects.
I use bits and pieces of them.
But I had to figure outthe whole guide in order to
like understand how toextrapolate small pieces of it.
(56:43):
And it's just like very different focusesof like, I don't know what everyone does.
I find it fascinating, you know,different focuses, different ways to go
about things like it's so different foreverybody.
I mean, talk about like, for me,when I have a novel project that is like,
it's there.
I have a couple of actual like novelprojects that are there.
(57:08):
And like, I tried buildingworlds, but like, the plate
tectonics and all that stuffdoesn't interest me very much.
And I end up just like not even using amap at all.
I mean, you don't have to, you know what Imean?
Yeah, it's like, and, and, well,it depends, I think, on that.
(57:29):
That's another thing that depends on thestory.
I have, if, if I'm doing an idea thatinvolves travel from place to place,
I might need a map in order to understand,like, where people are.
But I have like, the most recent one justlike happens in...
(57:53):
like, one place.
So I'm like, I don't know if I really needto know this stuff beyond like,
very sketchy of like, what this particularisland, I don't know if I think it's going
to be on an island, but it's like thisparticular place that has the magic
university, like, sketchy ideas of whatdifferent areas exist, right?
(58:20):
So it's, it is interesting, like,some people are going...
going to focus on... focusingon what you're interested
in will make that partinteresting in the story, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, so, uh, that's about time.
I, I... I'll cut this out if it doesn'thappen, but, um, we have a plan that,
(58:47):
uh, this is, this is gonna be like,I mean, this is a podcast episode,
but there's also... there's also going tobe, like, one piece of, of, uh, a collab,
as they call it, or a co-lab, I don'tknow, people pronounce it different ways,
but like, uh, so, at some point,I am going to go talk to Madeline on her
(59:11):
side, and then you'll, you'll be hearingmore from, of her asking questions to me
about advice for, forfleshing out languages
or, or however, howeverwe're going to do that
Um, so, um, as, as of this recording,we're, we're going to be planning that,
(59:31):
um, but, uh, but, um, depending on howthings up, maybe they'll be up at around
the same time, the two, the two differentvideos.
So, uh, you can go toher channel and check that
part out where she'sasking me the questions.
Yeah.
Um, so, um, Madeline
(59:53):
Before we go, do you have any,like, final advice for all the,
all the conlangers out there?
And, and, uh, for any ofthe writers who are on here
interested in incorporatingconlangs into their writing?
Um, I mean, I think mybiggest piece of advice is just
don't do things just becauseyou think you have to do them.
(01:00:15):
Like, I think that there's,there's so many things that you
can do in the grand scheme of worldbuilding andconlanging and telling stories and all of that.
If you're hearing about all this stuff, and you're a writer and you're like,
"Oh, that sounds awful," like, don't do it.
Like there are easy generators and stuffyou can use online to do it, or if it
does sound interesting, like, go for it.
(01:00:37):
And you know, there's a lot of different resources out there, like I know...
I know Jessie and David have done sometalks, the Petersons, on naming languages
There's a handful of them aroundYouTube, like..
There's plenty of places to go and like learnabout how to that at a really high level.
But I found being intentional is the mostimportant thing of laying out like,
(01:00:58):
this is my goal, this is how much time Iwant to spend on this, like, and then
trying to stick to that, to an extent,like, I mean, if the inspiration takes you
then go for it but like don't feel likeyou have to do stuff just because you have
to do it if it's not interesting to youand I think something that David Peterson
mentioned in one of his like videos onlineis that you can always just pay a
(01:01:19):
conlanger to do something for you if youdon't want to do it yourself, like,
you know, that's definitely an option.
And I was going to get to that.
Like, so...
because, I mean, authors tend to be kindof independent and kind of low on budget,
but it is an option out there.
There's the LCS Jobs Award you can go toor if you happen to be in places where
(01:01:50):
you're, like, adjacent to conlangers in acommunity then you can, like, contact
people and see if people want to collaboratewith you and work with you on things.
Definitely but, like, definitely peoplewelcome conlangers will welcome working
(01:02:10):
with authors on things, especially ifthere's payment involved, but,
you know, it's up to you to, like,work out what things are worth to you and
all of that.
But, yeah.
I advocate for anybody who's interested totry to learn to do the conlanging.
(01:02:34):
But, I also will advocate for... yeah,you can hire conlangers if you've got the
funds to do that.
And that is also...
it's like bringing in an expert onanything else.
Like, an expert consultant on anythingelse.
Like your...
(01:02:56):
A lot of people have like consultants onlike beta readers who specialize in
different things and different like
Oh, yeah, like sensitivity readers and...
sensitivity readers things and or people
who have specialized knowledge indifferent parts of the world building.
(01:03:19):
It's just like that if you want to involvesomeone.
But anyway, thank you, Madeline,for coming on.
It's been really interesting hearing yourperspective as like most of my guests are
conlangers first and they're thinkingabout the conlang in the first place.
(01:03:41):
You thinking about first, what conlangthings do I need for my story?
And then how can I learn how to do that?
Part of it is very interesting to me.
And I hope people have enjoyed it.
And once again, thank you for coming on.
And hopefully people will see me on on onyour side.
(01:04:04):
Yeah.
And I'm going to say happy conlanging.
Yeah.
Happy conlanging.
Thank you for having me on.
This has been really fun.
Special thanks to my patrons on Patreon.
If you go over there right now,you can get...
Early access to episodes.
You can get access to scripts for my soloepisodes.
(01:04:24):
And you can go get access to exclusivepolls for Tongues and Runes.
Thank you to...
Mintaka, Kenan Kigunda, Conor Stuart Roe,Jesse, Kaye, Alex Rossell Hayes,
Vyren Patrick, Tabby, Alexis Hugelmann
(01:04:49):
Silvia Sotomayor, Grammar Antifa,Wu Mingshuai, Grakkagrunk, Sigourney
Hunter, iloivar Jaana Mentoleum,Niklas Norblad, Anthony Docimo,
Artifexian, Jake Penny, Miles Wronkovich,Paul Roser, Langwyrm, Our Table,
(01:05:12):
Asa, Horn Bori.
Conlangery's theme music is by NullDevice.
Conlangery is distributed undera Creative Commons Attribution
Non-Commercial ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
But the limitations with,like, writing a book is
that, like, the readerdoesn't speak the language.
So it is meaningless to them.
And so they will, in most cases,right, they're just going to skim.
Like, if you're reading and then you havesomething that's in, like, those italic
other language, you know, gibbly bits,whatever, they're going to be like,
I don't know what that means, skim it,and then go to the next line, right?
(00:22):
[Music]
Welcome to Conlangery, thepodcast about constructed
(00:42):
languages and thepeople who create them.
I'm George Corley.
And with me over in Maryland is MadelineJames of the Madeline James Writes channel.
And we're here to talkwith you, Madeline, about...
you are just recently sortof getting into conlanging.
(01:08):
Yeah.
So Madeline's channel has a lot of worldbuilding stuff.
And you do greattutorials about building
geology and planetsand also cultures and stuff.
But you just, like, I believe with yourstreams, what you were doing is you
(01:31):
started out doing just naming languages,right?
Yeah.
And then recently...
You started to do a language forspellcasting.
But you don't... you're not doing the samething like I do when I do spellcasting
languages, where Imake a language, and then
(01:52):
I make it for... andthen I do incantations.
But you're, like, sort of going from theopposite end.
I want to talk to you about, like, howdid you discover, like, conlanging and.
And how did you... howdid... how did that come
into your, like, broaderworld building stuff?
(02:13):
And how were you introduced to that?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I guess it all starts becauseas a fantasy writer, you have to build
your fantasy worlds,which all the stuff on my
channel is adjacent tothat or part of that process.
But I sort of started by when you have afantasy society or fantasy kingdom world,
(02:35):
whatever, and you want to pick some sortof...
consistent, like, naming forpeople and places.
And it all started with thatand sort of picking inspirational
places around the world tokind of base the names off of.
So, like, one of the earlier projects Ihave that I started with that I'm going to
redo the naming for now, but all my nameswere based off Croatian origins.
(03:01):
And so you'll see a lot that have,like... What are the big ones right now?
Like, Celtic is a really big one rightnow.
A lot of people don't... A lot of peopledon't do, like, Latin-based things.
Like, you take sources.
But as I started to learn more about itand learn more about, I guess,
the way names originate at all, like,there's a lot of meaning packed into that.
(03:25):
And there's a lot of, like, if you're nota native speaker of the language,
like, you won't pick up onthings that you're potentially
using that could be problematicor just wouldn't make sense.
And it's a missed opportunity.
In my opinion, to be very intentionalabout those things.
So I started learning how to do naminglanguages where you're, you know,
(03:46):
start with a base, like, you know,phonology and you go through and just
build out, like, what those names wouldlook like to give them a cohesive,
like, look and feel while not beingentirely modern.
And so they don't have that, like,where it pushes you out of it,
where you're in this, like, you know,medieval-esque fantasy world.
(04:08):
And someone's named, like, Sally orsomething like that, right?
Like, things that fit in the world.
And then that sort of tumbled me down onan eventual path that led me to actual,
like, closer to real conlanging.
(laugh)
Closer.
We'll talk about that.
So...
(04:31):
When I hear naming language, I have acertain thing in mind, because this is a
thing that has been talked about in theconlanging community.
For a while, it's like a, Ithink it's a category on the
LCS jobs board is, like,getting just a naming language.
But tell me about what a naming languagemeans to you.
(04:53):
What are you looking for?
What are you trying to develop in order toget that baseline to get consistent names?
So the main thing that I dofor, at least how I do naming
languages for, which are,again, all from my books.
Right?
So I don't use IPA at all, just because...
(05:13):
-I mean, maybe one day I'll be, like, super-Hurts me
-famous and my books will be, like, in a movie.-That hurts me.
That hurts me.
And then I'll care how they're pronounced.
But for the most part, Ijust, everything is just default
how a generic Englishspeaker would pronounce things.
And so it's mostly which letters or,like, sounds I include.
I do a lot with...
And I guess this is one ofthe differences for me with
(05:35):
doing a naming languagefor, like, a book versus...
like, probably a more general naminglanguage.
But you only have a few examples in abook, right?
Like, you'll have maybe a few dozen names,whether it's people's names, place names.
So I try and really make them verydistinct.
So I'll pick certain sounds, a lot ofrules.
I'll cut a lot of things out in terms ofthe sounds.
(05:59):
And then I'll come up with,I guess, probably a lot of
structure for, like, thenumber of syllables in a name.
I'll do, like, percentages of,like...
Okay, this country or this group's namestend to be, like, two syllables and they
tend to be, you know, very short,like, CVC or, like, CVCV, something like
(06:21):
that that's very condensed and one will belonger.
Like, just playing a lot more on thedifferences of it.
And I don't get into roots or meaning ofnames.
I'll do that for place names very simply.
But the names themselves are mostly justto have, like...
Like, an aesthetic that appeals to both,like, differentiating different cultural
(06:44):
groups and different, like, nationalgroups in my books.
And also for having, I guess, like,an aesthetic feel that kind of matches
what I'm trying to portray from,like, a societal level.
And then, like, extra bits and bobs,like, if there's different, like,
titles or ways toaddress people or, like,
that sort of thing thatwouldn't be translated.
(07:05):
Like, if you assume the book was in thatlanguage.
Originally, but then translated intoEnglish.
Some of those things thatwould, like, linger, I'll come up with.
Normally, like, titles oraddresses if there's different,
like, your lord and ladyequivalent or whatnot.
Yeah.
I will say, like, I interjected becauseyou said you don't use IPA.
(07:29):
I was like, that hurts.
Because of me as a phonetician.
But watching your streams.
It's not like you are not...
using any, like, phonological theoryat all.
You know, you have learned, you know,all of the stuff.
And you make, like, a phoneme chart likewe would recognize.
(07:51):
But you are specificallytargeting, like, English
speakers and how theywould tend to pronounce things.
Which, it's...
I approach from the other direction.
But I think there are some ideas that Ihave.
With constructing, like, my languages forD&D that are similar.
(08:14):
Which we could talk about.
But in terms of, like, how I choose toromanize things.
And what distinctions I choose to put in.
But going back.
So, you say that you consider meaning morefor geographic terms.
(08:36):
Mm-hmm.
Than for...
For personal names.
Yeah.
Do...
Like...
Why... Why is that exactly?
It's mostly just from a patterningperspective for me.
So, like, with naming people.
Like, I mean, I guessif it became a thing
(08:56):
where I wanted thereto be, like, a plot point.
Or something where someone's name issignificant.
Like, the meaning of their name issignificant.
Because, like, I watch a lot of,like...
I guess...
I guess, like, historical, like,K-dramas and C-dramas and stuff like that.
And they're, like...
It tends to be, like, a little storypoint.
Like, what the main character's name isand stuff like that.
(09:18):
But that's not something I've ever used.
If I did something like that, then I mightthink harder about what the names mean.
But usually it's just what you call aperson.
Whereas, like, with place names,people might pick up on patterns.
Like, if they were lookingat a map, they'd be like, oh,
this place that's a mountainand this place has a mountain.
And has, like, a similar...
pieces in it, right?
(09:39):
Where those might mean something like hillsor mountains or place of great heights.
You know, where you could pick up on thosesimilarities and gain meaning.
Whereas, I don't expectreaders to ever pick up on
similar things or similarbits and character names.
And be like, oh, yes, theymust have some sort of
philosophical similarityor something between it.
(10:02):
You know?
I mean, yeah.
Place names, like... If youdrill down the etymology...
The etymologies of place names, often theyare quite, like, boring and on the nose.
The big mountain.
Right.
The snowy mountains.
Right.
The other big mountain.
The long river, things like that.
But I find it interesting.
(10:24):
You talk about K-dramas and C-dramas.
You're talking about them usingsignificant meanings to names.
Those are cultures, also, that are morelikely to have transparent names.
Like, straight up, like, if I think of myChinese friends and I look at the
(10:44):
characters, I can know what their namemeans.
My wife's name means beautiful.
All that kind of thing.
Which is, it happens in English,but it's not as common.
We have a lot of,like, historical names
that, like, there's anetymology for my name.
And there's an etymology for your name.
But nobody ever thinks about it whenthey're naming their child that.
(11:07):
And I think there's an interesting sortof cultural thing to talk about in that.
Because, like, maybethe people who speak your
conlangs might have moretransparent names than we do.
But the audience thatyou're reading is used to
(11:28):
just taking a name asanother word to memorize.
Right?
Right.
Exactly.
So, like, if I wanted that to be,like...
You know, because it depends on what...
It depends on what youwant to focus on where, you
know, cultures are obviouslyincredibly complicated.
But just like worldbuilding in general,like, when you're portraying a society and
a culture, you have to kind of pick andchoose what to include in the book.
(11:50):
Because, like, you can'tjust throw everything
out there because itwould be overwhelming.
They wouldn't latch on to anything.
Like, it's just...
That's where you get into info dumping.
So I like to choosespecific pieces to really
focus on and haveit, like, feel immersive.
Even if it's not, like, everything.
So I'm sure at some point I'll do...
And especially as Iexpand my understanding
(12:10):
of ways names canwork in a culture and stuff.
But where that would be a point where thatwould come up and that would actually be
shown whether or not it actually is and isjust, like, hidden through the filter of,
like, it being written in a book,you know?
Another piece of thatis, like, how much do you
(12:34):
get into, on the onehand, like, naming things?
Like, naming conventions, like, whetherthere are surnames or patronyms or whatever.
And also, do you do any...
How much do you do, like, morphology?
I guess for place names you kind of doneed some morphosyntax stuff.
But personal names can depend on thelanguage whether there's anything, right?
(12:59):
Yeah, so it kind of... It's been verydifferent for me for every project.
And again, like, I'm still, like,the most, like, preschool...
Naming language, conlanger, whatever youwant to call it.
Like, I'm still very much learningeverything.
But so far, every project has been verydifferent for me.
And it depends a lot on how much opportunityI have to portray things in the book.
(13:23):
So, for example, one of the big projectsI'm working on, the one where the spell
language that I'm making is part of thatproject.
I also have three other naming languagesin there.
And so, two of them are mostly just forside characters.
Because there's a few people fromdifferent, like, different countries that
would have a different sort of naming feelto them.
(13:46):
So, I've built out just enough of theirculture.
Like, I think one ofthe names, it's just
straight up, like, it's,like, a couple syllables.
It's a very strict pattern.
There is... It's a verylimited set of, like, sounds.
And then it's, like, they're...
It's, like, they have a different namingsurname pattern for if they...
(14:07):
They are from one of the, like,jungle cities versus one of the,
like, coastal cities.
Because that's a big societaldifferentiation in their culture.
So, like, I put that as, like, adistinctive thing in their, like, surnames.
But other than that, it's just, like,there's nothing complicated about it.
It's just straight generation of, like,base syllables that just get stuck together.
(14:29):
And then...
Because, like, there's only going to be,like, four or five names.
And they'll never get explained in depth.
So, it's, like, a little bit of...
Something.
But then... For the otherones, I'll get more complicated.
I have...
I don't know.
I use a program when I do this that I'vewritten that has a lot of rules to make
things sound more, like, Englishpronounceable.
(14:51):
So, like, there's a lot of...
Oh, what are they called?
Like, when you have the multiple vowels,the diphthongs?
Yeah.
Yeah, like, different diphthongs that Idon't allow.
Different, like, consonant clusters that Iwon't allow when syllables are merged.
Like...
Not quite, like, sandhi-level things.
But, like, really basic stuff that Ijust...
I toss anything that ends up beinggenerated with that in it.
(15:15):
But then my, like, more complicated onesthat I have a lot of, like, things being
generated in it and I need it to be lessstrict.
Then I have some generalrules that I'll apply to,
like, when I'm compoundingand stuff like that.
That'll tweak it a little bit to make itwork.
But most of it is really basic and it'sjust straight generate a syllable,
generate two syllables.
(15:36):
Sometimes there's different rules for, like, if it's
a starting versus,like, an ending syllable.
Like, if there's certain letters or soundsthat aren't allowed, then it will handle
that in the generators and all that basedoff how many syllables the name will have.
And your program is an interesting thing.
You keep saying it's just for you.
But, like, a lot of conlangers have...
(15:59):
Who have some programmingexpertise have come up with
some kind of program thatassists other conlangers.
Do you think you wouldever, like, build a generator that
other people would be more,like, useful for other people?
I've had a lot of people ask about that.
(16:20):
It is something that I would potentiallyconsider in the future for just the very
strict naming language part of it becausethat's all very reusable.
I would have to do a lot ofchanges because, like, I have a
lot of rules that are justbaked into, like, what I find...
pronounceable in general and also,like, I don't use IPA.
(16:40):
So, like, you would have to...
Like, I will have representations of,like, CH is, like, one letter or one sound
in my program because, like, with IPA,like, CH is, like, that's a sound versus,
like... Like, I make someof those differentiations.
But a lot of it, like, I feel like ifpeople were actually doing it, they'd, like.
(17:04):
It's just so strict in how I do it to makeit make sense for me that I'm not sure if
tons of people would be interested in itand also, like, all the stuff that I do
for, like, the spell language where Iactually have, like, grammatical
structures and stuff like that in it.
None of that's in, like, the base program.
So, if I... I don't know.
And I'd also need a UI because I just,like, I hit the run button and it vomits
(17:27):
everything out that I want in theterminal.
So, like, it's very far away from everbeing usable by someone who isn't a Java
programmer withmy... exact same goals.
But it's something I'm considering to oneday, like, people could check it out at
GitLab or something, you know,if they really want to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(17:48):
It probably would need some morecustomizability and some more, yeah.
Yes.
But that's a good segue to the next topicis...
So, you started out with just naminglanguages.
Now, you have done a spell language.
Yes.
(18:08):
And can you tell me about your approach tocreating a spell language?
So, my big project and, like, the goals ofthe book are important here where I...
It's...
I kind of call it, like, Six of Crows,but for nerds.
And so, I...
(18:29):
It's sort of, like, an excuse for me toreally dive into the, like, world building
magic system linguistic stuff of thisworld.
Because it's very plot relevant.
So, I have, like, one of my characters isa linguist.
One is, you know, a witch or aspellcaster.
One's an alchemist.
Like, they have different specialties thatthey're, like, super, you know,
(18:51):
super great at.
And one of the thingsthey have to do is they have
these grimoires that havecodified spells in them.
And the only way to, you know,complete the heist that they're trying to
do at the end of the book is to translateenough of this text to...
Basically figure out, like, what spellswere originally used, what spells can they
use to then, you know, break past this,you know, whatever.
(19:15):
And so, I knew that I needed to,like, since translation is an active part
in the plot of the book, and also infiguring out, like, there's obviously
going to be mistakes, things they dowrong, things they use incorrectly.
So, I wanted to createan actual spell language
where you're seeing thespells that people are using.
(19:36):
You're hearing them.
You're hearing the pieces, and you'reseeing them in the book.
And I wanted them to be small enough thatpeople could look at them and,
like, maybe pick up on some patterns andmaybe sort of see, like, oh, like,
I understand why that didn't do what theythought it was going to do.
And also just for me to understand.
(laugh)
Like, I have to havevery rigid structures in
(19:56):
everything that I dofrom a magic perspective.
So, like, I have a whole chemistry systemfor my potions in that book just because I
need to understand, like, how to doeverything.
If the reader never understands it.
So, I kind of just started forthe spells with, like, I wanted
it to be able to, like, not bethese super long sentences.
(20:16):
Like, I wanted it to be, like,short little things that people could pick
up on patterns a little bitmore easily, but would also lend
itself towards having a lotof mistakes and translations.
So, that's sort of, like, the goal that itstarted with of, like, you know,
you would have the spirit name that you'recommanding or asking to do something.
(20:36):
You have your commandclause and then you have
the spell, like, of whatyou're asking them to do.
And then, so, very early on when I waschatting about it with the people in my
Discord, they were like, oh, you shouldlook into, like, polysynthetic languages
because that wouldsort of fit that scheme of
how I wanted it to bepresented in the book.
So, then I, like, watched some videos onthat and then, like, from there I just
(20:59):
sort of worked with these, like,like, I basically built, like,
a formula almost and started expanding,like, you know.
So, like, you know, saying something likeburn that tree is pretty simple compared
to, like, oh, I want you to, you know,water all the plants in this greenhouse
until, you know, the plants are happy,right?
Like, very different levels.
And I've sort of been building up the,I guess, like, sentence or grammatical
(21:22):
complexity so I can have some of thosemore complicated spells in it within the
frame of, like, a polysynthetic language.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, so, that is interesting.
I found that when, at least in the introstream that you did that for that,
(21:43):
it was interesting thatyou were talking about, like,
this very formulaic structurethat you just outlined.
Yeah.
And you were just going to be,like, I'm just going to stick to building
out the structures that I need for thisformula.
Mm-hmm.
And, like, saying, like, you need somekind...
(22:06):
Kind of, like, imperative form because ofthis and such stuff like that.
Whereas, like, I kind of did talk aboutwhat structures were important at the
beginning of my, like, Tongues and Runesstreams.
But I ended up creating full languages,like, I created a whole Draconic language
(22:26):
before I started making spells.
And I just want to talk about,like...
It is interesting...
That you have this, like, spell formula.
Mm-hmm.
That's two pieces to this.
First thing is, like, do youfind times when that sort
(22:49):
of, like, rigid structurehas been limiting to you?
And also, have you runinto times when it's you
unexpectedly needed morestructure than you thought you did?
Mm-hmm.
So, for this project, and, you know,I don't know if, like, what the cause and
(23:13):
effect was, like, what came first,chicken or the egg, whatever.
But the use case and the relevancy of thelanguage in my book is very, very...
It is very formulaic.
Like, it is...
It is not a language that people speak.
It is not a language that any modernperson in my book is fluent in.
It's something that, you know,there's a group of people way back when
(23:34):
that used to understand it and wrote thesegrimoires.
Mm-hmm.
But for the most part, it's the only languagethat can basically be heard by spirits.
But the spirits don't talk back to you.
There's no, like...
There's no other way forthis language to really be used
within the context of my bookthan literally just these spells.
(23:54):
I could, like, create something where itcould be relevant, but, like, it's not...
It doesn't make any sense for my plot.
So, that already was very, very limited.
Um...
And also, like, again,I joked about this,
but, like, I'm thepreschooler of conlangers.
Like, this was a very much, like,a baby step of just, you know,
(24:16):
trying to expand...
Like, going from naminglanguages to something that has
literally any grammar at all,like, is a huge leap for me.
So, like, I've been trying to,like, really take it slow and kind of
expand things out so that I understandthem.
Like, the idea of making a full conlangis, like, so overwhelming to me.
Like, I know I've gotten...
Like, my...
(24:36):
At this point now, my spelllanguage has, like, a lot of
stuff in it, but it definitelyisn't a full conlang yet.
But I've sort of...
I guess I've been doing it, like,with the baby steps, right?
Like, where you mentioned, like,running into things where you need more.
And there's nothingin my formula that
necessarily makes itnot possible to expand it.
(25:00):
So, I've found that, like, I mostly do iton streams.
With a lot of people on my stream thatactually know things about language,
which is really necessary.
But every time I've needed to go,like...
Like, I started with those really simplespells.
And when I've added more complicated ones,like ones with conditional clauses or,
like, futurist... Future, like,clauses to end the spell state.
(25:26):
Like, stuff like that where it's gottenmore complicated.
I've just sort of been expanding it bit bybit and adding how, like...
Like, the framework...
The frameworks I have are there,like, for how the language would work.
It's just I haven't developed those otherparts of it or how it would fit into it.
So, like, it hasn't necessarily beenlimiting.
I just have to, as I need to do anotherthing, I have to then figure out,
(25:50):
okay, like, how am I actually going to dothat?
Like, I know it's head finaland I know that because
it's polysynthetic, thesetypes of things group together.
So, like, even though it's a differenttype of clause, these determiners get
pulled in with the verb parts.
And, like, I can reuse the rules I have toexpand it.
It just...
I kind of have to take it with those babysteps.
(26:11):
But it hasn't, like... I haven't raninto anything that I'm like, well, dang.
I can't... You know,this is insurmountable.
I started out too limited.
I haven't ran into that.
It is interesting to hear your perspectiveas someone who is a writer first.
(26:33):
And then decided to do conlangs just forwhat you needed.
Yeah.
Because for me, like, conlanging is my artform.
And then I have tried to put it intonovels, but it's, you know...
Yeah, it's hard.
It hasn't...
I haven't published anything about thatyet.
(26:55):
And now I am making conlangs on YouTube andtrying to put them out there for people.
For people to use in D&D campaigns.
So, it's interesting to see yourperspective and saying, okay, well,
really, I just have a very strictlydefined structure that I want to work with.
(27:25):
And that's where I'm going to live for therest of the project.
Whereas for me, like...
But I mean, I want to...
It may be also down to different stylesfor the spells you're writing.
Because you had at the outset a formula inmind that all spells would follow.
(27:48):
Whereas for me, it's like I have generalideas of what kinds of statements,
what kinds of phrases will be there.
But I build out a wholelanguage and build out some
poetry conventions in order to,like, accomodate what I might need.
So, it's interesting to see that differentapproach.
(28:14):
Can you tell me moreabout the interaction with the
chat and how you arelearning some things from them?
Like, can you come up...
Can you give me some more, like,specific instances of where you had a
question and someone knew something thatyou...
You need to know?
(28:35):
Because I have that experience as well.
Yeah.
Like, I'm trying to build some,like, not based on Celtic language,
but callbacks to Celtic languages in mycurrent language.
And I got a couple of people here andthere that actually speak Celtic
languages, which is useful because Idon't.
So, like, for you, what are some,like, specific examples of things where
(28:59):
you had a question and someone deliveredinformation that helped you along?
Yeah.
So, I mean, I will say that probably,like, a very large percentage of this
stuff has come from the chat from some wayor another.
But the way it'll typically go is I have,like, an idea of what I need to do, right?
(29:20):
So, maybe I'm like, okay, we need tomake... figure out how to actually create
the verb roots of my, like, verb chunks orverb clauses or whatever.
And so, I'm like, okay, well, you know...
I need to find a way to, like,how do I want to do this?
Do I want to have specific words thatencompass every verb?
(29:43):
Do I want to have, like,something more where I
have, like, roots thatthen get turned into verbs?
And I was leaningtowards wanting to have,
more restricted,like, base roots to it.
So, someone was like, oh, like,what if you just have, you know,
a bunch of things, then you useverbalizing suffixes...
(30:04):
to actually turn all of these words intoverbs?
And I'm like, oh, that's cool.
And, like, I googled it.
And I'm like, yeah, that fits what I'mtrying to do.
So, we started setting them up.
People were throwingout ideas of, like, oh,
like, what if you havethis kind of a verbalizer?
And what are you going to do if it'salready a verb and you can't, like...
Like, I had some examples that we wouldtry to, like...
Things that I wanted to be able totranslate at the end.
(30:25):
And one of them was, like, stir thispotion, right?
This liquid.
And so, I'm like, well, stir.
Like, how would I verbalize a noun?
A basic noun to make a verb out of that?
And they're like, well, okay, you need abase verbalizing suffix that just is,
like, a default if the word is already averb.
And so, it was justvery much a lot of back
(30:45):
and forth of, like, Iknow sort of what I want.
But I have no idea linguistically how toaccomplish that.
And so, everyone in thechat would, like, point out
ideas of, like, oh, like,here are some options.
And then I'd think through, like,these are the spells I want to create.
Do I need that?
Can I use something I already have forthat?
And they're basically count as,like, like, if a person actually knows
(31:08):
stuff, you know, and has ideas,that the chat is my brain.
And I'm just, like, making the decisions.
Because I know nothing.
Like, I know nothing.
(laugh)
But surely you're learning some things.
Yeah, I'm definitely learning.
Like, I'm learning a lot.
I definitely, like, grammatically,linguistically understand my spell
(31:29):
language a lot more than I do,like, English, for example.
But the way I think, and this is why Ithink I'm a very unlikely conlanger in
general, but, like, I don't memorizethings very well, and I don't make,
like, connections between things verywell, and I think it's, like, I have,
like, ADD or whatever, so, like,my brain just doesn't do that very well,
(31:51):
so, like, learning language in general forme has always been very, what's the term,
like, intrinsic versus extrinsic, like,where I don't learn it through rules.
So, like, I really struggle.
I really struggle during, like,language classes growing up, but,
like, in the cases where I had to actuallycommunicate with people in other
languages, like, I picked up languages alot faster that way, or I picked it up
(32:12):
from reading, but, like, so, like,it's definitely been a struggle for me,
but that's why, a part of why on mystreams I have, like, that big PowerPoint
where everything's super documented,and everything in my program is a lot
more, like, rigid and documented than itprobably needs to be, and that's just
because I will forget the second I move toanother language.
(32:33):
So, like, I'm like, what did we,what did we decide there?
Like, my chat has to remind me constantlythat I'm, like, head final versus,
you know, head initial or whatever,and I'm like, crap, what is this again?
Everyone's like, it's head final.
You're good.
Just keep going.
And I'm like, oh, okay, okay.
Like, I just, I don't know.
My memory's not great.
So, like, it's slow, slowgoing, but...
(32:55):
Yeah, yeah.
And that is interesting.
I mean, but the thing is...
Whether you do on head initial or headfinal, that seems like a basic thing,
but there are a lot of moving parts tocreating a language.
Even if you are trying to be, even if youare trying to minimize your effort and do
(33:21):
this, there's still going to be a lot ofstuff.
Because, I mean, how many spells are youworking with here?
Um, I mean, I haven't created that many.
I probably have a couple dozen that I'veactually created.
But the, the way I'mbuilding it, like, the actual...
I have a differentiation betweenthe, like, grammatical words.
(33:43):
There's, like, a term for this,but I can't remember what it is.
My chat taught me it at some point,and I forgot.
But, like, the grammatical words versusthe, like, root words, you know?
Like, my base nouns and my base verbs.
Like, those, like, that part of thelexicon is pretty basic right now,
just because I haven't had to build a lotof things out.
But...
I have all the, most of the grammaticalpart of it all developed and figured out.
(34:08):
So, like, with just generating a word for,like, tree, I could make, you know,
tons more spells because I have all theother building blocks.
Right, right, right.
But that is, that is quite a lot of work,a lot, a lot of things to build,
and there's a lot of things to keep trackof.
And, you know, even, like, experiencedconlangers can forget about...
(34:33):
How things work.
You talk to David and Jesse, and they're,they talk about how important it is to
have good documentation, because they havehad situations where they've forgotten
things, especially David, because he's,he's a little bit less organized.
Yeah.
(34:54):
And, you know, if I were to leave alanguage alone for a while and come back
to it, I might struggle with certainaspects of it, you know, like,
I go back to Ndăkaga, if I,
if I took, like, a year off of it,and I come back to it, even though I know
how it works, like, the tripartite cases,I'd go in there, and, like, "What do I use,
(35:20):
accusative or nominative here?
I'm not sure."
Things like that.
So, it is, it is interesting that you'vegot sort of the second brain in chat,
and they are helping you through it
I will ask, do you think in the futurethat you might develop to a point where
(35:44):
you want to create a full language thatmaybe you introduce some dialogue into
your book, and you want the, want the fulllanguage for that?
So, I think, I think it depends.
And I think, again, I think it's all verystory specific.
I imagine that all the different parts.
Parts of a language Iwill create at some point,
(36:06):
whether or not they're inthe same language or not.
But like one of the things that I've,I've thought about with, like if I was
having like a story where there was like,you know, two political groups and there
was a lot of interactionsand like one of the plot
things is that they don't speakthe same language, right?
Like where it would actually be relevantto have someone be talked at in another
(36:31):
language that they don't necessarilyunderstand.
Like, I could see having to develop like afull conlang for that.
But the, the limitations with like writinga book is that like the reader doesn't
speak the language.
So it is meaningless to them.
And so they will, in most cases,right, they're just going to skim.
Like if you're reading andthen you have something
(36:52):
that's in like those italicother language, you know...
Gibbely bits, whatever, they're going to belike, I don't know what that means,
skim it, and then go to the next line,right?
Whereas, like, you can do it like in alimited way, right?
But like, someone's notgoing to like, read a book and
be sitting there and beinglike, how do I pronounce that?
What does that mean?
Like, if it's in another language.
(37:14):
So I've, I don't know if Iwould ever find a case for
like a full, like 100% fullconlang would be relevant.
I would think that it'd be most likely ifI end up doing that.
Like, what do they call them?
But like a universe where you have a lotof stories that are set in a larger
universe, like the Grishaverse,the Cosmere, like in those cases,
(37:36):
if I had a language that was going to beused throughout a lot of things,
then I could see creatinga full conlang because I
use it in different little bitsand pieces everywhere.
But all the books I've done so far,like single books, maybe duologies,
where I'm not going tohave a lot of opportunities to
reuse a languagein different ways.
So it's like, however,it's, it's relevant to use
(37:59):
it in this is kind of beenthe limitation so far.
Yeah.
So that that is interesting.
And that is something that I have thoughtabout in terms of like, where,
where, where in mediawould, would there be more of a
demand for like a languagesketch versus a larger conlang?
(38:24):
And it.
It does sort of the, the, the idea of howmuch you're going to spend time with this
particular culture fits into it,you go with, you go with something like
Star Wars, and Star Wars has not had abad, not had a great record for languages,
(38:46):
the way that they, they do it is not whatthey, the way they did it at the start,
definitely was not,
to my liking.
More recently,there have been some, I think,
I think there is a Mandalorianlanguage and there is,
there's like there's a signlanguage for the Tusken Raiders.
(39:07):
I'm not sure what the quality of it is.
But yeah, but also with Star Wars,definitely, I would approach it
differently, but there are all theselittle snippets of different languages
that are, that are spoken all over theplace that.
One character says one line and it's done.
(39:29):
And it's like, okay, I would makesomething, but I would make like a sketch
that has enough to get that one line fromthe script in.
And then I'd have like a variety ofdifferent ways to do names, which
obviously they don't do.
(laugh)
(39:50):
But then you go with something likeDefiance, which Dave Peterson worked on.
You have like these, Ithink it's like five alien
cultures together that theyare all going to be there.
So you kind of want todevelop that more because
(40:11):
like a TV series didn'tlast very long, but so yeah.
I can understand that thing.
The one thing about like people will justgloss over the conlang text is that is
true for most readers, but the people whoget into it, and it depends on how popular
(40:37):
your book gets, how many of those peopleyou encounter, right?
But the people who do get into it canreally get into it and start to analyze.
Even with very small amountof data, they're going to at
least be looking closely andseeing if you are consistent.
(40:58):
Right.
Right.
Like there's definitely like, you have to,how much of that kind of stuff you put in,
like you really have to gauge by what typeof readers you have, but also like
narrative focus, I think is, is prettyimportant in that too.
Because like, if say, if you have someonewho is a princess of kingdom A
And they're shipped over to kingdom B andthey're trying to navigate this really
(41:22):
high, like high stakes tense situation,but they don't speak their language.
The things that the people are saying tothem as they're trying to understand
what's happening, like that has a lot ofnarrative focus where like, if someone is
saying something like you might pick upon, like you would have more narrative
impetus to try and figureout what's going on as
(41:43):
the characters trying tofigure it out versus like.
If someone's like walking through a barand there's
just like side conversationsthat have no relevancy.
Like there's like different weights ofthat too, that I think would affect how
much people would focus on it and thushow, you know, for a general average,
like how much peoplewould be likely to, you know,
(42:04):
really try and figureit out and focus on it.
Yeah.
I, I, and it's like that for every aspectof world building, I think.
Yeah.
And it kind of can depend.
And it can depend on what kind of storyyou're telling too.
I can understand theperspective of if it's not as pot
(42:27):
relevant, you're not goingto spend as much time on it.
Like thinking about other aspects of worldbuilding, like there are people who will
like laser in also onlike descriptions of
clothing and try to fitthem into a time period.
Even, even if it's like a fantasy storythat doesn't necessarily fit into the same
(42:51):
technology level as people are expecting.
Yeah.
But like how often are clothes andimportant plot point.
Outside of certaincircumstances, political
drama with court intrigue,it might be important.
(43:16):
But it's, it's.
It's like... it's like variable.
Things like, you know, you do a lot ofwork on geology and stuff and building
your planets and, you know, how much ofthe natural resources are important.
(43:41):
People talk about, you know, George R.
R.
Martin famously criticized Tolkien on,like, what is Aragorn's tax policy?
Well, the style of story that Tolkien wastelling is not concerned about that.
Right.
Yeah.
(laugh)
So, like, me comingin as a conlanger... I'm
(44:05):
sort of trying to getyour perspective on that.
Me coming in as a conlanger and as alinguist...
I'm more focused on thelinguistic aspect and, like,
linguistic realism thana lot of people would be.
But I can understand, like, if you aredealing with all these different moving
(44:28):
parts in the world building,then sometimes you might
have different ideas of, like,how much this is important.
Yeah.
And I think...
I think one of the ways that has reallyhelped me in going from, like,
someone who spent, like, seven yearsworking on the world building for a world,
(44:50):
like, back when I was first seriouslywriting, to being like, you know,
I'm not accomplishing anything by doingthis, to being a lot more focused and
being able to get through more projectsand stuff like that.
But I find that, like, readers have onlyso much, like, mental capacity to kind of
pick up on things.
And I don't mean that as, like, a negative,but I mean, like, if they're reading and
(45:13):
they want to be immersed in a story,right?
Like, everything youchange that they have to be
thinking about is going toslow them down a little bit.
And there's different, like, genreexpectations, right?
Like, a high fantasy, like, a reader goinginto that is going to be preparing to,
like, hold a lot of stuff in their brainversus, like, you know, another genre.
(45:33):
defaults right now in thegenres because, like, if it's a...
High medieval, you know, European-basedfey realm, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's a lot of expectationsthat readers already know
with all of that stuff thatyou don't have to explain.
(45:54):
Like, you don't have to explain how amedieval society works.
You don't have to explain how fey works.
Like, if you go with all those,like, default things...
Yeah.
And everything that you do that's,like, different.
So, like, if you go into, like,a Sanderson book, for example,
like, you have to pick up on so manythings that changes society.
...that changes the way that you have tointerpret what's happening.
(46:15):
Understanding how that magic system works.
Understanding how the society works.
Understanding the sayings they make.
All that extra stuff.
A reader's only going to be able to pullso much of that at a time.
And having to be veryintentional about, okay, what are
the things you're going toask your reader to understand?
And if it's not relevantto the story, you're best
(46:37):
served choosing thingsthat are more relevant.
It's something that atleast helps my brain with
choosing and beingintentional about that stuff.
Because it doesn't have to be plotrelevant.
Because having a good tone, having animmersive feel, having a certain
experience of readingthe prose, there's a lot
(46:57):
of different goals withstorytelling in general.
And choosing what things you want toinclude for those different goals and how
much you're going to ask your reader tofigure out for all of that.
If you're like, okay, I want you tounderstand this whole new type of time.
We're going to have a whole differentcalendar, a whole different clock,
(47:18):
the way time works is going to bedifferent.
We're going to have tons of sayings abouttime.
Your reader's going to have to learn thatand understand that and keep that up in
their mind as they're reading so thatevery time it comes up, they're like,
ah, yes, so that links back to this andhow I understand it.
It's like, okay, that's a week, right?
And if there's no reason to do that,that...
(47:40):
Mental energy could bespent, like, understanding
a conlang instead that'smore relevant, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
That is interesting, because, like,talking about the way that time works,
you know, I go to, I think of Farscape.
(48:05):
And I don't even remember what all theunits were, but I think there is,
like, a unit of time that they use that's,like, about half an hour.
And you do eventually, you can get into itand kind of understand it, but it's not
necessarily brought up that often.
(48:27):
I think there was aparticular episode where it
was, like, particularlyimportant to track the time.
And they mentioned this over and over.
And I read one of MattColville's books, and he had,
like, a system where hehad something called a turn.
(48:50):
And he had a whole, like,explanation of how it's based
on the rotation of one ofthe moons of the planet.
And it's really interesting.
I don't know how relevant it was.
It definitely did givethe feeling of this is a
different world and tiedin some other things.
(49:13):
So it's...
And so that's what you were talking about.
It doesn't necessarily have to be plotrelevant if it gives you a different feel.
But at the same time, like, there could bea situation where you have something like
that, but it's, like, brought up.
And it's not...central to the story.
So people don't reallytalk in time references
(49:36):
or distance referencesor things like that.
Right.
Right.
But we're talking about sort of the world-building iceberg.
Yeah.
And how much below thewaterline do you actually need
to construct before youactually write your story?
Because if it's, like,if you do so too much,
(49:59):
then you're spendingall your time on that.
Yeah.
I definitely agree with that a lot.
And I think, like, there'sdefinitely that difference
between things that are therefor aesthetic purpose, right?
Like, you'll mention something becauseit's part of the world.
Like, oh, like, times work slightlydifferent.
(50:21):
But the reader doesn't needto memorize and remember
the specific details tounderstand things in the book.
It's just, you know, like, set dressing,sort of.
Yeah.
To the... To the, you know,culture or the society and stuff.
Like, there's definitely a differencebetween, like, that side of world-building
and then the, like, you need to rememberthis because if you don't understand this,
(50:42):
you are not going to understand any of thethings that are going to happen, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you can think about, like,things like how, like, if people are
taking quotes from your book out ofcontext, how many, like, extra words are
there that people are not going tounderstand?
So, it is very interesting to,like, think in those terms, too,
(51:06):
of the presentation of the world throughthe story.
We're running close to time, but I want tomention for the people who are watching on
video, there is a globe behind you,and that does not look like Earth.
(51:26):
Is that your world?
That's one of the ones I'm building,yeah.
I think that's actually the...
Potion World one, where that little islandis where my story is taking place.
Oh, I think... have I seen that stream?
Have you... I think you werestreaming building up, like,
(51:48):
the flora and fauna and theninto the cultural stuff of that?
Yeah, yeah.
So, I've done a lot of... as I've beenbuilding out the, like, societal...
Like, how I want to link going from...
I don't like geographic determinism,like, at all.
Like, if you go into my guides,like, that's not...
(52:10):
Right.
Right, but, like, there's some, like,things that, like, I like it to matter.
So, like, I like it to be, like,multi-source for, like, how, like,
societies and cultures develop and stufflike that.
But, yeah, this is the one where I wasplaying around with a lot of those
concepts for figuringout, like, how I want
to have all that linkedand mapped and stuff.
I think I have a few videos where I'mplaying around with this world in general.
(52:33):
Yeah.
That's really cool.
How did you get a globe like that?
I just, like, bought a globe, like,a regular one, and I sanded it down.
And then I used Sharpie to go over the lat-long lines.
And then I just exported, like...
I put my map in, like, 3D software andexported it in a bunch of different,
like, projections that would make iteasier to see different parts of it with
(52:56):
the same lat-long lines.
And then I'm just, like, hand-putting iton the...
the globe.
Oh.
Oh, you drew it by hand onto the globe?
Yes.
Okay.
That's...
That's amazing.
It's a lot of effort.
Yeah.
That is, like, super interesting.
(53:17):
That is super cool.
It'll be done in five years.
Yeah.
One last thing I want to say is, like,we were talking about, like, the limits.
I kind of think that I have a reversething going on with my own stuff because,
for me, in Tongues and Runes, the languageis the focus.
(53:44):
And then I'm saying, like, a lot of otherworld-building things, I am, like,
being selective about what I determineabout that because, on the one hand,
language touches everything.
You kind of have to...
If you're building a language,you have to kind of know all the things.
However, I'm making theselanguages for other people's D&D
(54:08):
campaigns that I don't knowanything about the setting for.
So I'm thinking about, like, I can't besuper specific about geography.
I can't be super specific about,like, the structure of the planet in the
prime material plane.
(54:30):
I have to sort of select.
And, like, for, like, Ndakaga,for dragons, a lot of the world-building
that I did end up doing was, like, changingthings about dragon physiology, right?
I made them...
I gave them magnetoreception.
(54:50):
I gave them the...
I determined that they are obligatecarnivores, which I don't know if D&D...
actually states that in lore, but it makessense.
And I, like, gave them tetrachromaticvision.
And then for the fey one, I'm like,I'm not going to talk about who
(55:15):
individuals are in the fey world,but I felt a little bit more free of
putting my stamp on, okay, this is myconception of what they call the Feywild.
I'll call it Faerie.
And it's...
It's also, like, my world-buildingdecisions end up being, like, in the
(55:38):
service of being more neutral,too.
Right.
So I won't elaborate too much about thisbecause this podcast is about you,
but it is interesting that I have,like, a mirror image of that going on
where, like, I'm building language,but other world-building stuff I have
(55:58):
reasons to be sketchy on.
Yeah, it's definitely one of those thingswhere there's a lot of different ways to
go about it, and it's something that I runacross both with conlanging, but also with
world -building in general.
Like, I have that very intense,like, physical world-based, like,
world-building guide ofcreating a physical world from
plate tectonics to aircirculation to ocean circulation.
(56:20):
And there's a lot of people that will takethat way further.
Like, they'll go in and do, like, Gplates and build, like, tectonic history.
And, like, they go really hard because,like, that is the thing that they're doing.
Whereas like in myprojects, I don't actually
use my whole guideon my personal projects.
I use bits and pieces of them.
But I had to figure outthe whole guide in order to
like understand how toextrapolate small pieces of it.
(56:43):
And it's just like very different focusesof like, I don't know what everyone does.
I find it fascinating, you know,different focuses, different ways to go
about things like it's so different foreverybody.
I mean, talk about like, for me,when I have a novel project that is like,
it's there.
I have a couple of actual like novelprojects that are there.
(57:08):
And like, I tried buildingworlds, but like, the plate
tectonics and all that stuffdoesn't interest me very much.
And I end up just like not even using amap at all.
I mean, you don't have to, you know what Imean?
Yeah, it's like, and, and, well,it depends, I think, on that.
(57:29):
That's another thing that depends on thestory.
I have, if, if I'm doing an idea thatinvolves travel from place to place,
I might need a map in order to understand,like, where people are.
But I have like, the most recent one justlike happens in...
(57:53):
like, one place.
So I'm like, I don't know if I really needto know this stuff beyond like,
very sketchy of like, what this particularisland, I don't know if I think it's going
to be on an island, but it's like thisparticular place that has the magic
university, like, sketchy ideas of whatdifferent areas exist, right?
(58:20):
So it's, it is interesting, like,some people are going...
going to focus on... focusingon what you're interested
in will make that partinteresting in the story, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, so, uh, that's about time.
I, I... I'll cut this out if it doesn'thappen, but, um, we have a plan that,
(58:47):
uh, this is, this is gonna be like,I mean, this is a podcast episode,
but there's also... there's also going tobe, like, one piece of, of, uh, a collab,
as they call it, or a co-lab, I don'tknow, people pronounce it different ways,
but like, uh, so, at some point,I am going to go talk to Madeline on her
(59:11):
side, and then you'll, you'll be hearingmore from, of her asking questions to me
about advice for, forfleshing out languages
or, or however, howeverwe're going to do that
Um, so, um, as, as of this recording,we're, we're going to be planning that,
(59:31):
um, but, uh, but, um, depending on howthings up, maybe they'll be up at around
the same time, the two, the two differentvideos.
So, uh, you can go toher channel and check that
part out where she'sasking me the questions.
Yeah.
Um, so, um, Madeline
(59:53):
Before we go, do you have any,like, final advice for all the,
all the conlangers out there?
And, and, uh, for any ofthe writers who are on here
interested in incorporatingconlangs into their writing?
Um, I mean, I think mybiggest piece of advice is just
don't do things just becauseyou think you have to do them.
(01:00:15):
Like, I think that there's,there's so many things that you
can do in the grand scheme of worldbuilding andconlanging and telling stories and all of that.
If you're hearing about all this stuff, and you're a writer and you're like,
"Oh, that sounds awful," like, don't do it.
Like there are easy generators and stuffyou can use online to do it, or if it
does sound interesting, like, go for it.
(01:00:37):
And you know, there's a lot of different resources out there, like I know...
I know Jessie and David have done sometalks, the Petersons, on naming languages
There's a handful of them aroundYouTube, like..
There's plenty of places to go and like learnabout how to that at a really high level.
But I found being intentional is the mostimportant thing of laying out like,
(01:00:58):
this is my goal, this is how much time Iwant to spend on this, like, and then
trying to stick to that, to an extent,like, I mean, if the inspiration takes you
then go for it but like don't feel likeyou have to do stuff just because you have
to do it if it's not interesting to youand I think something that David Peterson
mentioned in one of his like videos onlineis that you can always just pay a
(01:01:19):
conlanger to do something for you if youdon't want to do it yourself, like,
you know, that's definitely an option.
And I was going to get to that.
Like, so...
because, I mean, authors tend to be kindof independent and kind of low on budget,
but it is an option out there.
There's the LCS Jobs Award you can go toor if you happen to be in places where
(01:01:50):
you're, like, adjacent to conlangers in acommunity then you can, like, contact
people and see if people want to collaboratewith you and work with you on things.
Definitely but, like, definitely peoplewelcome conlangers will welcome working
(01:02:10):
with authors on things, especially ifthere's payment involved, but,
you know, it's up to you to, like,work out what things are worth to you and
all of that.
But, yeah.
I advocate for anybody who's interested totry to learn to do the conlanging.
(01:02:34):
But, I also will advocate for... yeah,you can hire conlangers if you've got the
funds to do that.
And that is also...
it's like bringing in an expert onanything else.
Like, an expert consultant on anythingelse.
Like your...
(01:02:56):
A lot of people have like consultants onlike beta readers who specialize in
different things and different like
Oh, yeah, like sensitivity readers and...
sensitivity readers things and or people
who have specialized knowledge indifferent parts of the world building.
(01:03:19):
It's just like that if you want to involvesomeone.
But anyway, thank you, Madeline,for coming on.
It's been really interesting hearing yourperspective as like most of my guests are
conlangers first and they're thinkingabout the conlang in the first place.
(01:03:41):
You thinking about first, what conlangthings do I need for my story?
And then how can I learn how to do that?
Part of it is very interesting to me.
And I hope people have enjoyed it.
And once again, thank you for coming on.
And hopefully people will see me on on onyour side.
(01:04:04):
Yeah.
And I'm going to say happy conlanging.
Yeah.
Happy conlanging.
Thank you for having me on.
This has been really fun.
Special thanks to my patrons on Patreon.
If you go over there right now,you can get...
Early access to episodes.
You can get access to scripts for my soloepisodes.
(01:04:24):
And you can go get access to exclusivepolls for Tongues and Runes.
Thank you to...
Mintaka, Kenan Kigunda, Conor Stuart Roe,Jesse, Kaye, Alex Rossell Hayes,
Vyren Patrick, Tabby, Alexis Hugelmann
(01:04:49):
Silvia Sotomayor, Grammar Antifa,Wu Mingshuai, Grakkagrunk, Sigourney
Hunter, iloivar Jaana Mentoleum,Niklas Norblad, Anthony Docimo,
Artifexian, Jake Penny, Miles Wronkovich,Paul Roser, Langwyrm, Our Table,
(01:05:12):
Asa, Horn Bori.
Conlangery's theme music is by NullDevice.
Conlangery is distributed undera Creative Commons Attribution
Non-Commercial ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
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