October 17, 2024 • 42 mins
Ben Glass is a lawyer, but that’s not all he does.
He took the road less traveled in the legal world by starting a business teaching lawyers how to market their firms in an authentic way that forges strong, personal relationships with clients. Now, as he consistently scales his own law firm, he gets to help other lawyers do the same.
But here’s the thing: Marketing in the legal world can be taboo. It’s difficult, but Ben has overcome that, and the insight he’s gathered along the way transcends any industry. It can help a small business of any niche scale with personal, strategic marketing. Tune in to this episode of the Conquer the Chaos Podcast as Ben shares his top tips with you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Clate Mask (00:04):
Hi, I'm Clayton mask.
And on the conquer the chaos podcast, I talkwith inspiring business owners about what it
takes to build a great business and a great life.
That means more money, more time, morecontrol, more impact, more freedom.
So keep listening to hear the tough lessons they learned.
So you don't have to repeat them.
Welcome everyone to this episode of the podcast.
(00:26):
I'm Clayton mask.
Co founder and CEO of keep and thehost of the conquer the cast podcast.
And I am excited today to talk to a longtimefriend, longtime customer, longtime digital mark
or direct marketer that I, we go way, way back.
And so this is going to be a really fun conversationbecause we're going to cover things from, Marketing,
(00:47):
business ownership, leadership, mindset, um,and help you to conquer the chaos in your world.
Let me, let me introduce to you this friend.
And by the way, this, this is also a customerwho has one of the very early, uh, domain
names of, of our, of our, uh, product.
And so, uh, this is a fun one because we go backprobably shoot 15, 16, 17 years, something like that.
(01:11):
So let
me welcome to the conquer the cast podcast ourguest today Ben glass Ben great to be with you here
Ben Glass (01:18):
Clay man, one of the fun things I host a podcast I'm on a lot of podcasts and so one of the fun things for
me is is I get my friends From that I've had from that.
We'll just call the Dan Kennedy world You know,for 20 years, sometimes we haven't been in the same
room, you know, in over a decade as it is here,and we're just going to riff and we'll let people
(01:38):
listen in on our conversation as we catch up on life.
You and I have both been doing this for along time, like serving small biz owners.
Helping the world move, serving really all the customersof the small biz owners who, who use your product or, you
know, in my case, uh, lawyers running small practices.
Yeah, it's a really fun place to be.
(01:59):
And you, you and I are survivors.
Clate Mask (02:04):
Very true.
Well, and let me just for, for our audience, letme just tell you a little bit more about Ben.
Ben is a Practicing attorney of 41 years.
Um, he many years ago recognized that marketingin small law firms was a real challenge and was
holding back these attorneys from building thekinds of practices and lifestyles that they wanted.
(02:26):
And they were being really kind of,um, Captive to their law practice.
And by the way, that has a lot of meaningfor me because I went to law school.
I've, uh, I worked in law firm, uh, before Iwent to business school and got into software
and I've seen the truth of what he's sharing.
I know, I know what he's saying.
(02:47):
So he started, uh, he started a practice to teachlaw Attorneys how to do great legal marketing
and the company is called great legal marketing.
And so we'll talk about great legal marketing.
Um, but he has been an expert in this area for 15 years.
So maybe tell us a little bit more about what you do, Ben.
(03:09):
Um, you know, you can.
Let's leave the law part aside for the most part, let'sfocus on what you do in teaching law firms because I
think that's that that applies not just to law firms, ofcourse, but I think it'll help our audience understand
the wealth of experience and knowledge that you have.
Ben Glass (03:25):
Yeah, so so thanks.
So primarily I am dad to nine, right, as youand I were talking about before we went live.
And so so that's the primary.
a very, um, sort of standardizedroutine growth path in legal discovered.
I didn't know anything about running abusiness, which led me to that world of
sales and marketing led me to Dan Kennedy.
(03:47):
Kennedy led me to then infusion soft now keep.
Um, and so, you know, if anything,I've, I've been a good student.
When I first heard Kennedy, um, His earlytapes that I got, I didn't understand half
the words he was using, let alone the content.
Yeah, but I realized, like, if I could figure outthis thing that they call direct marketing, if I could
(04:10):
figure it out, it would revolutionize the practice,because I don't see anybody doing this illegally.
Really, they weren't.
And so, we started creatinginformation pamphlets and booklets.
I mean, I was Remember, this is Yellow page days.
This is pre website, pre email.
Um, and so we were trying to figure out how to standout, you know, in a crowded market of, for those of you
(04:36):
who are young, you've probably never seen a giant yellowpage book filled with either the A's for attorneys or
the L for lawyers, just hundreds and hundreds of pages.
Um, so, so I started to figure that out and then, you know,thank goodness at the same time, you and your co founders.
We're figuring out that this, um, direct marketingwas a problem to be solved in part with technology.
(05:03):
Um, and so you all introduced Infusionsoft back in the day.
I was one of the early users and still am a customer.
And so that helped to automate, um, a lot of what we did.
And cause what, what we learned was you could,rather than shout, Hey, I'm here, come hire me.
You could shout, Hey, I'm here.
I'm here.
Maybe you have a question.
(05:24):
Here's some information.
Let me get your contact info.
Let me follow up.
Let's do all that stuff that we teach.
So, so as I grew the practice, then friends said,you know, Hey, you could teach this business.
As so many of your friends and myfriends, um, have done over the years.
And so we were one of the very earliest teaching lawyershow in the beginning Clayton was, it was teaching
(05:51):
personal injury lawyers how to advertise better.
Today, great legal marketing is really,it's, we're a pure coaching organization.
We don't sell services.
We don't sell websites or payper click or anything like that.
We help mom and pop who are growing alaw practice organically and not spending
tens of thousands of dollars a month.
We help them stand out.
In a very crowded market.
(06:11):
We help them compete against the 800 pound gorillas.
Um, and they do very well.
Yeah.
Clate Mask (06:17):
Yeah.
So let's, I want to come back around to thegreat legal marketing practice and what you
do there, but let me just, I want to, there'sa couple of things I want to touch on there.
The first thing is when you got into this niche, yourecognized that so many professionals Like attorneys,
(06:37):
doctors, accountants, they've been grown and taught andeducated to do their practice, not to do their marketing.
And in fact, in law, it's very interesting because.
I know in that, in that background, a lot oftimes the, the marketing is actually shunned.
It's looked down upon.
(06:58):
It's, it's like, no, you, you know, we, we can't do that.
That's, we'll just deliver great professional service.
And then, you know, the practice will grow.
And it's, it's not, the reason I want to draw thisout is, that that mentality is prevalent among
professionals who get their degree and their certificates.
And they think that that educationprepares them to go build a great business.
(07:19):
And and unfortunately, some hold onto that beliefall the way through to a You know, their entire
career of having a sub, a subpar practice fromwhat they could build if they would really dig into
marketing, but it's not just true in professionals.
I see this in this mentality exists amongmany business owners where they think,
(07:40):
look, if I, if I build it, they'll come.
If we build a better mousetrap, if we delivergreat service, you know, we'll grow by referrals.
All these things are typical mindsets.
That hold back the business owner fromreally growing and building a great business.
So I, I want to just kind of press down a little biton this experience because I believe this is a very
(08:01):
common problem that holds back small businesses fromaccomplishing what they want to in their business.
They don't develop this marketing mindset andyou dealt with it among attorneys and have.
Built a whole business around this, a wholecoaching business around this now for 15 years.
And so I'm interested to know, what didyou discover that needed to unlock for
(08:25):
people to embrace the marketing mindset?
Ben Glass (08:28):
Here's yes.
And I, and as you were speaking, the word unlock.
Came to mind.
So here, here's the mindset unlock.
It doesn't matter if you're a lawyer,it'll, it'll apply to almost anybody.
And, and, but the question I askedlawyers clade is this two questions.
Number one, are you a good lawyer?
So ask a room full of lawyers and they'll raise their hands.
We went to law school.
(08:49):
I passed the bar.
I'm a good lawyer.
Second question is important.
Um, is there someone in your town right now walkingaround with a legal problem or an opportunity for whom
you would be the perfect lawyer for them and they would bea great client for you and everyone is going to say yes.
Now it's a matter of finding that person.
(09:09):
Okay, well Clay, if that's, if true and true why would youlet that person wander into another law office for whom
the experience is not going to be excuse me, as perfect?
As it would be walking into your office,
Clate Mask (09:27):
right?
Ben Glass (09:27):
So now we call toward our um, jay abraham, you know, sort of the moral obligation
to market so to those who Say well, you knowMarketing's bad or I shouldn't have to market.
I'm saying you're doing Your community a miss service.
Clate Mask (09:48):
Yes
Ben Glass (09:49):
By not letting them know About what you do, how you do it, why you do it.
Now you are not going to be perfect for everyone.
We get it.
But, but why do we let people wanderinto, you know, you're a dentist.
Why let people wander into a practicethat's not as good as your practice is.
And if you don't believe, Your practice is good, and youdon't have a team that believes your practice is good.
(10:12):
Those are different problems,
Clate Mask (10:14):
right?
Ben Glass (10:15):
And we shouldn't do marketing to drive people into a into a bad customer experience Especially today
with online reviews, but let's just start there thatfor me Clay you serve the world Better by letting people
know clearly what it is you're good at and you like doing
Clate Mask (10:34):
Yeah, so you unlocked people's mindset by helping them see who they are for
the market and that it's a disservice To notattract that ideal customer into their business.
Ben Glass (10:47):
Yes.
I mean, that's a great great not craving the world
Clate Mask (10:50):
Yeah, great way to do it and I I think about some of my friends in those early days of law
who who were very opposed to advertising and marketingand It Fundamentally, what they're seeing is they're
looking at advertising and marketing is something theydon't want to be instead of looking at who they are and
(11:11):
who their ideal customer is, and then matching it up
Ben Glass (11:13):
100 percent 100%.
And so, you know, we teach.
This kind of hierarchy.
What kind of life do you want to live?
What kind of business supports that life?
What type of customer, patientor client supports that business?
Okay, if we can, if we have clear answers tothose three questions, then and only then,
Clay, do we think about what's the marketing?
Clate Mask (11:34):
There we go.
Okay, good
Ben Glass (11:37):
person.
Clate Mask (11:38):
Go through that hierarchy.
Yeah, this is really
Ben Glass (11:41):
important.
Really important.
You could be in practice for 50 years and even change.
So don't worry if you've been at it for a while.
And you can be in
Clate Mask (11:49):
business in any kind of industry, right?
I mean, this, that hierarchy you just went through.
What kind of, so go through what kind of life.
Ben Glass (11:56):
Do you want to live like what would be perfect for Ben and I give lawyers permission to
think that way like we have one Life, we don't knowhow long we have let's live in our unhappiness.
Okay, number one.
So then number two What kind of a practice?
Cause there's different kinds of law practiceswould support that lifestyle that you would like.
Some lawyers like to be in court, others don't.
(12:18):
All right.
Don't build a court litigation practice if you hate it.
Clate Mask (12:23):
Yeah.
Ben Glass (12:23):
Then number three, kind of who would you love to see walking through your door as a client?
Like what would go?
Yes.
This is perfect for me.
Perfect for that person.
Yeah.
Once we know those three thingsright now, what's the messaging?
What's the media to that person to attractmore of what we call my perfect client, my
(12:46):
perfect avatar to walk through the door.
Because when a clay, when, uh, in any business,When a customer comes through the door and the
owner and the team are charged up and love thework they do, the customer is better served.
Clate Mask (13:05):
And then everything goes more smoothly for not only the customer, but for the employees, for
the business owner, for the business owner's family.
So when you get clear that hierarchy, number one, whatkind of business, what kind of life do you want to live?
And then what kind of.
Business or practice would support that lifestyle.
And then what kind of clients would make up that sort ofpractice or, or business that supports your lifestyle.
(13:32):
And then now you've got to aplace where, you know, your ideal.
Customer profile, you, you know what your ideal clientlooks like, and now you can speak to that client
and get really clear in connecting with them, whoyou are for them and why you serve them really well.
And suddenly the job of advertise advertising andmarketing doesn't seem so used car salesman ish.
(13:57):
It's just connecting up who in the world is rightfor you and who you are right for in the world.
Ben Glass (14:03):
We don't force or fool anybody into coming to be a client.
With us, but we say very clearly what we do, whatwe're good at, and you know, we are good at a couple
of narrow verticals, um, and we have a lot of thirdparty sort of endorsement of that, um, and, and
the space where we play and compete with people.
People with other firms create is in the experience, right?
(14:25):
Because it's kind of hard for a consumer totell is lawyer a or lawyer B a better lawyer?
I don't know.
We're going to deliver the very best experience of anybodyin our region like nobody could beat us on experience.
So you create, then you teach
Clate Mask (14:41):
in your coaching, you're teaching your, your members how to build that kind of experience, how
to differentiate from others by creating the practicethat serves their ideal customer profile the best.
Okay.
Ben Glass (14:53):
From the moments they find us either by referral or find one of our digital
properties until long after the case is over.
Like we stay, we stay in contact, we staya part of their lives for as long as they
want us to stay a part of their lives.
Um, in interesting ways, whichis, you know, another whole topic.
But again, uh, you know, I remember walking intoyour, your, I think it was your old offices now,
(15:15):
speaking with, uh, Christina many, many years ago.
And you have these huge, larger than life.
Avatars like like everyone at it was in future self at thetime, but every employee knew like Hey, here's the four
or five different types of business owners that we serveand here's What they like and what they need and every
single day your team is walking in Not being distractedby life and all the many things we could say to someone in
(15:42):
advertising Right talking to those four or five Avatars.
So we're clear on what that is in our firm.
And again, any business owner, like adentist doesn't serve every mouth, right?
I'm sure.
Um, here's the other thing I believe,truly believe, Clayton is everybody.
Every human being has a unique setof gifts, talents, and interests.
(16:03):
And it is unique in, in mankind.
Like nobody else has your combination, right?
I believe that we're put on earth clay to, to shinethat combination of gifts, talents, and interests.
on the world.
Like, yes, things were good out.
We like don't do things.
We're not good at because Clay, you may bereally charged up by something that I hate doing.
(16:24):
You come work with me or we'll jointventure or something like that.
But that's the other thing.
I think a lot of lawyers and biz owners get,um, they get frustrated with life because they,
they try to do everything, try to be everything.
And they don't realize that they're really born to serve.
According to how they were made,like, and everybody's different.
Clate Mask (16:47):
Okay.
We're going to keep this going,but first a quick message for you.
Hey listeners, as you know, automation isthe great game changer in small business.
And every year we do an annual conferenceto bring together people who are serious
about growing their business with automation.
Now it also creates an amazing balance in your life.
That's why we love automation so much.
So if you are serious about the keys to successfor entrepreneurship and you want to do more.
(17:12):
Especially in these times, you want to make surethat you're getting the most out of automation.
Do not miss our annual conference.
It'll be November 20th through 22nd, right here in downtownPhoenix, with an amazing community of entrepreneurs,
business owners, and their teams who are looking togrow their business, create more time, More savings and
more control and gain more control in their business.
(17:34):
It's going to be an awesome event.
I love this event, especially the customercontests that show you how they're
using automation to grow their business.
So make sure that you sign up.
You don't want to miss this.
So make sure you register.
You can do that at keep.
com slash let's grow summit.
And take advantage of our early birdregistration pricing that expires July 30th.
(17:54):
You don't want to miss out on that.
So again, it's keep.
com slash let's grow summit, November 20th to 22nd.
It's going to be a fantastic event again, keep.
com slash let's grow summit.
We'll see you there, November 20ththrough 22nd in downtown Phoenix.
All right, now back to our chat.
That's the thing.
When you get really clear on that, what you're, who you are,what you offer, what you're great at, it becomes magnetic.
(18:20):
It becomes, you know, it's, it attractsthe right Pete, the right customer profile.
It repels the wrong ones, the onesthat it's not going to be a good fit.
And so.
So much of the job of getting really clear for themarket begins with who you are and what you offer, which
is why it's so important to go through that hierarchy.
(18:40):
You took us through.
Well, what do you want?
And what would create an idea?
You know, what do you want in life?
What would create an ideal practice?
That what's the ideal practice that would createthat and then getting really clear for your
customers about who you are and how you servethem in a differentiated way than somebody else.
You know, when, when you and I sat in theseconferences many years ago, we were, we were taking
(19:02):
in these direct these principles of direct marketing.
The, the, The technologies were different.
The, uh, you know, A.
I wasn't even a, you know,beginning to be a thing back then.
But, but the principles have stayed the same.
It's so interesting to me.
I look at I look at the people who practice,uh, the principles of direct marketing.
(19:25):
And it doesn't matter what platform they're using.
It doesn't matter if it's Tik TOK oremail or, or Instagram or whatever.
It doesn't, it doesn't matter.
Yeah.
It really is just a matter ofgetting these principles nailed down.
I remember when I was in that time, you know,and I was learning from, from Dan Kennedy
(19:47):
and, and, and others, Dan said something oneday that I will just, I will never forget.
And he said, You know, it's along the lines of thisconcept of, of realizing that you need to embrace
marketing and in order to grow your business.
And he said, you are a marketer, but you'renot a marketer of your product or service.
(20:12):
And when he said that, it was kind of like, okay, hesaid, you're a marketer of information about your product.
He said, you're a marketer of information,but he said, but you're not a marketer of
information about your product or service.
You're a marketer of information about the problemsthat are solved by your product or service.
And that, that progression, I'm a marketer.
(20:33):
But not about my product or service.
I'm a market of information, but not informationabout my product or service information about the
problems that are solved by the product or service.
And what, you know, when you see the people whoare really great in, in small business marketing,
they're really great at talking about the problemsthat are solved by their product or service.
(20:56):
And I I've seen, Uh, you know, I've seen you dothat in an amazing way in, in the legal niche.
I've seen so many others kind of in their niche, butthey're talking about the problems that are solved by
their product or service for their target customer.
So, you know, that was just, that was one of manyprinciples that I remembered from Dan when in,
in those early days that made a big difference.
(21:17):
And I've carried that with mefor what, 18, 17, 18 years now.
Ben Glass (21:21):
Well, think about why this is.
And it's exactly true.
But the reason why it is, is that when you justtalk about your product or your service, you're
talking about you, you, me, that, and that's boring.
When I create, we would call information marketing.
I'm, I'm not just educating the prospect.
(21:44):
I'm creating trust in me.
So so much of our marketing and we have to be carefulwhen we use the word brand and branding, right?
But for me, Clay, so many people knowme for reasons other than he's a lawyer.
(22:04):
Like they know this story.
Right.
So you create information that helpseducate because many people are searching.
But then you.
You disclose, and people know your story, and they seeyou as a trustworthy individual to reach out to first.
So, no matter, like, we want people to callus no matter what their legal issue is.
(22:27):
We only do a couple of narrowverticals, but my Rolodex is really big.
And I'm going to send you on your way.
And so it's another thing, it's a second thing that a lotof lawyers struggle with is um, you know, how do I use this,
these various media to not just make it all about me as Benthe lawyer, hire me, I'm the best, I get you the most money.
(22:50):
Right, that's plaintiff's personalinjury marketing in a nutshell.
Or Hey, you know, here's Ben, the soccer referee, down tonine, uh, running a couple businesses, loves small biz.
Oh, that's kind of memorable, right?
More than, oh, I had a car accident.
Clate Mask (23:06):
Right.
Ben Glass (23:07):
So there's a lot of layers to this.
And I think, you know, as you alluded to, Clay,the, the technology, the flood of technologies
today, I think, confuses people and slows them down.
They see Hillary over here doing this, and they seeClayton over here doing this, they see Ben over here doing
this, and then they try to do all three of those things.
Right.
Um, which is, nobody can afford,nobody has the time to do that.
(23:27):
That's
Clate Mask (23:27):
right.
Yeah.
So you talked, let me go back towhat you said a little earlier.
You talked about the interesting ways that you help yourclients to stay, to follow up after the case is over.
I, you know, You and I both know how critical follow up is.
I talk about this in Conquer the Chaos.
It's at the heart of the customer strategyof staying in front of the customer.
(23:52):
Um, what, what are some of the things thatyou've learned and that you teach your clients
that help to stay present, stay relevant,stay on top of the mind of of their potential?
You know, of their potential clients over time, becauseas we all know, you know, you can have this great
client experience and think, Oh, I'm going to growby referrals and they're going to come back to me.
(24:15):
The reality is.
They move on in life, they're busy doing somethingelse, and they have a need arise in their
life for your services, but they've forgotten.
So, what is it that you do to solve that problem?
What are some of the things that you'vefound to help your clients with that?
Ben Glass (24:32):
So first of all, this is a really important point.
80 percent of our money, or nearly 80 percentof our money, comes because somebody started
By mentioning our name to somebody else.
So that's important.
Yeah, we're old school.
I, I, it's old school, but everything old is new.
Um, we published an, a wonderful eightpage monthly newsletter from the law firm.
(24:54):
That's very little about the law.
It is about the personalities, eitherclients and client success stories.
It's about our team.
It's about books we've read and recipes andall this stuff that you would think like.
Well, who would read that stuff?
Our stuff gets put up on refrigerators of homes.
So
Clate Mask (25:08):
physical newsletter, you're sending a physical newsletter that people will put up.
Ben Glass (25:12):
Yeah.
It's so funny because, you know, as my young andmarketing teams like, Oh, we have to do newsletters.
I said, well, if you're going to do an email newsletter, ithas to be even better than a physical newsletter, because if
you think of all the emails you get and you just hit delete.
So, so you got to do something.
If you're going to, Put the energy into that.
Yeah, it has to be along the lines of whatever themost open, famous email, deliverable newsletters are.
(25:37):
And I'm not sure we have the bandwidth toactually do that, but that's number one.
Number two is we've got our referral sources.
So other largely professionals, prior clients, lawyers,healthcare, uh, you know, doctors, um, refers case.
So, so we have a whole separate newsletterfor them and that Clayt is mainly.
(25:59):
repurposing marketing that I write for the greatlegal marketing community, making it Generic
and agnostic to business and getting that out.
So again, that newsletter is not about,Hey, remember Ben, send me a case.
It's like, here's something I learned.
Here's a book, here's a podcastthat you might be interested in.
Cause I know that you're interestedin growing your business.
(26:23):
Um, so that's two things.
The other thing is, you know, we try todo as, as many person to person events.
We, we, when we built our spacehere, um, we built a training center.
So we invite people.
Community in to use it for free if they want.
We host our own events here again.
It's not always about how you do a case better.
It's about all of these things.
And so just where people walk into thelobby of my office, Clayton, they go.
(26:49):
What is this place?
Really?
Clate Mask (26:51):
It
Ben Glass (26:51):
doesn't look like a lot, right?
And so, and that's it.
So for us, so you can choose to spend a hundred Ka month on advertising, you absolutely can, right?
And if you're the largest spender in the market,you'll do well, but it can only be one of those, right?
The large, the large.
Um, and so we have focused on this so called grassroots,genuine, here's our story, but what's your story?
(27:17):
How can I help you?
Like, is there something that we could do for you?
And then we find Clayton's running a pizza shop.
Oh, great.
Let's, let's put a story of yourpizza shop in our newsletter.
And just tell the community and then you'll, of course,you'll take that newsletter, you'll put it in your front
desk or the front, you know, counter at the pizza shop.
So this is, but again, it's nothing new.
Clate Mask (27:40):
Yeah, these are
Ben Glass (27:41):
harder than doing one more.
You know, what do you call it?
Social media post of some image that goes on Instagram.
Clate Mask (27:52):
Well, what strikes me is it's very, it's very personal and very, it's
very, um, it's, there's, there's connection.
You're, you're doing physical newsletters.
You're doing referral networks.
You're doing events.
You're bringing people into your space.
You're getting, you're, you're,you're creating relationship.
(28:12):
In all of those things, you're, you're, it's a very personalrelationship oriented approach, which doesn't surprise
me that you Or an early adopter of customer relationshipmanagement software, because that's what this is.
This is managing relationships, buildingrelationships in a very personal way.
And it's interesting because what I've noticed over the lastcouple of years, I think it's really a post COVID effect.
(28:37):
The relationship building Therethere's a there's a void there.
There's been in a lot of ways, technology.
And I think society was moving so fast andaway from true in person relationship building.
And then COVID just put a huge freeze on it.
And so post COVID, there's kind of this,this rebound effect that's happening.
(29:00):
And people are craving this, they're wanting relationship.
And I think that's why what's old is new.
And, and, you know, Like you said, there's, there'san opportunity for people to inject genuineness and
personality and relationship and connection wherepeople have been starving for that for a while.
And it sounds like you're teaching that and practicingthat and working on that with your coaching clients.
Ben Glass (29:24):
And it is the huge opportunity, clay for any small business owner, like anyone . Yeah,
because that's, that's what differentiates,
Clate Mask (29:32):
it's what makes it different.
Ben Glass (29:33):
And it's, and it's more work than again, just creating another graphic for tick tock or whatever,
um, and not say a tick tock, you know, won't work.
I haven't figured out how to make it work, but, um, uh,but, but so the business owners who spend the time, I
think, going to events like yours, reading your, Podcastsand listening to this blog or reading your blog and
(29:59):
listening to this podcast are the ones who can find ideas.
That are affordable, doable.
You do not need to own the whole market.
You need a thousand true friends in any business who willknow your name and your story and have the confidence
to make a referral to you again, whether you're sellingsub sandwiches, counting services, whatever, like
(30:23):
it's business agnostic and that's the value really inlistening to, um, to your podcast actually, because
there's so you bring on so many guests who have.
These ideas and you just build and build and buildand, you know, you say, Oh, that's one I could do now.
I'm not really comfortable doing this,but here's another one I could do.
(30:43):
Or here's a team member who would like to do something that.
I'm not comfortable doing if it's, you know, I just sayBrian and I, my son, like we, we, we say to ourselves,
we're playing the endless game of business, right?
It's puzzle, puzzle, puzzle, puzzle, grow, grow, right?
Clate Mask (31:01):
By the way, that's one of the things about the mindset of marketing that I, I learned early on.
And I realized it's not, you know, manybusiness owners don't, don't take this approach.
It's.
We're in marketing.
It really is about failing fast finding, you know, learning.
Okay, that didn't work.
Okay.
Let me make this adjustment Well, maybe thatdidn't work because of this, you know, you don't
(31:24):
just try something and then throw it out Youadjust you tweak you modify you build on it.
You start to find the pieces that work for you Youknow, build that into a program, into a campaign.
And I think a lot of times business owners, they, theykind of have a, Oh, I tried that and it didn't work.
And they just, they move on.
(31:44):
It's like, no, well, what's the next thing you did?
What did you take from that?
That did work.
What did you apply?
How did you adjust it?
Like there's a, there's a formula for success inmarketing that you don't just discover right away
because every business owner is a little different.
Every, you know, they're, they havea different, Ideal customer profile.
So you've got to get that honed in.
And it's a, it's a trial and error.
(32:05):
And so I love that endless game of businesspoint that you're making, because, you know,
I think about some of the things we've triedover the years that just, they didn't work.
And you spend that money and youthink, Oh, well, we wasted that money.
Well, did you?
No, you didn't waste it.
You learned.
And now you're applying that to the next thing andworking to To get better and better for that reason,
(32:25):
you, you might've heard me tell this story years ago.
When we first started the business, I waswith Scott and Eric, you know, Scott and
Eric, and they're Sharice's younger brothers.
And part of the reason why I've always, we've alwayshad such an affinity with you is that you're an
attorney with nine kids and, uh, Sharice and Ericand Scott's, uh, dad's an attorney with 10 kids.
And so we've, we've, we've swapped some notes on that.
(32:48):
But one of the things that was so amazing Inthe early days when we started our business
was I came in as the person who understood.
Business partnering up with my two technologist brothersin law who were software developers and I was doing the
books the first week and I'm going through QuickBookson the line items and under the payroll section, there
(33:14):
was You know, there was us and then there was thisother name mark and I was like, and it was five grand.
And back then that was a lot of money forus each, each, um, month to be paying 5,
000 to mark when I hadn't seen mark at all.
So I go into these guys and I'm like,guys, you brought me in as a partner.
You didn't tell me you had this otherpartner that's taken 5, 000 a month.
(33:37):
And they're like, what are you talking about?
And I said, I was just doing business.
The books and it's in the payroll sectionsays Mark 5, 000 and they started laughing.
They're like, Oh, we decided when we first startedthe business that we were always going to pay 5,
000 a month to our marketing budget to make surethat we were learning and growing and developing.
And so we just call it Mark.
(33:58):
I said, that is hilarious.
And I've come to realize how.
Brilliant.
That was to actually allocate an amount of moneyevery month that you're spending on marketing and
you're using it to get smarter and wiser and learn.
And there were times where we spent 5, 000 ona direct mail campaign that got us zero leads.
You know, there were times where we spent 5, 000on a new source and it didn't work out very well.
(34:24):
We got a couple leads and it was, you know, really.
You could conclude that was a waste, but it wasn'tbecause we were playing, as you just said, the
endless game of business of refining our marketing,figuring out what was working, wasn't working.
And it was that mentality that I think was one of the, oneof the smartest things that we did early on in our business
to learn how to become marketers of our product and service.
Ben Glass (34:47):
It's, it is the advantage that the small business owner has, um, which as you know, the, the, the larger the
business and the more committees you have and the more Um,you know, hands in the, in the pot that want to, you know,
chime in on decision making, the harder it is to do this.
So, so, so that's one.
So trying things and learning.
(35:07):
And then of course, the other thing that's beengreat for me, and I'm sure you've experienced
this as well, is you accelerate that learning.
When you are in rooms of people who do thingsbigger, better and faster than you are.
So I have both been in and run mastermindgroups where either a room full of lawyers
or a room full of mixed businesses get in.
(35:30):
And so, Clay, you could say, hey, Here's a piece we did.
We tried.
We got zero.
Here's a piece we did.
We tried.
We got 5%, right?
A good number.
Let's just say, and then and then you go aroundthe room and out of the room comes always an
improvement on some part, either design or list or,you know, Um, uh, you know, call to action, right?
(35:52):
And so, uh, our friend, our joint friend, Bill Glaserwould tell us, you know, the entrepreneur is the
loneliest person in the world, and this is true.
And so what we want people to know, uh, you andI do on this podcast that, you know, one of the
best places you can be in is to find a group anddon't be the smartest one in the room, right?
Find a group of people.
(36:13):
I have found that successful peopleare abundance minded and will share.
Oh yeah.
No doubt.
Clate Mask (36:18):
Get into a mastermind or into a coaching group or something and it makes all the difference.
It definitely helps address that loneliness.
Ben Glass (36:29):
100%.
Because this work is hard, like, like you can, youcan decide to run a business and reap the rewards,
but that is a roller coaster and it is hard work.
And the world needs entrepreneurs and you can make just asgreat a decision to be an employee and supportive business
and a business owner and the world needs you as well.
(36:51):
And so, you know, Clay, part of what I do in life is justhelp people, especially young people, like what's a path?
The sad part is, lawyers, they go to law school, Clayton,they don't even, they see like this really narrow path to
big law, they don't even know that I exist, they don't evenknow that thousands of law firms like mine exist in America,
(37:13):
um, and so I think part of what you and I do is reallyhelp spread the message of, of entrepreneurship, you know,
capitalism, um, free markets, and goodness gracious, ifyou've got an idea, let's go and see if, if the world will.
Think your idea is valuable.
Clate Mask (37:30):
Yes.
And help you get it out there.
Well, I, you're so right about theloneliness of, of entrepreneurship.
It's, it's why we do our conference every year.
You know, it's coming up November 21st and 22nd.
By the way, you mentioned Jbram.
He'll be speaking at our partner day the day before that.
So that'll be a lot of fun.
But, you know, it's just a collection of, you know,what we call the icons of small business that all
(37:52):
come together and help Small businesses to growwith automation primarily is obviously our focus.
But but getting like minded people together andlearning how they can grow their business and
learning from each other is really the big thing.
So that'll be November 21st and 22nd in Phoenix.
Excited about that.
Um, Tell, tell people where they can learn more aboutyou, you know, if they're in, if they're in law and
(38:15):
they're looking to improve their legal marketing,they just want a little bit of direction and advice
and, um, where can people learn more about you, Ben?
Ben Glass (38:23):
Yeah.
Thanks for asking.
So it's a couple of things.
So you can go to greatlegalmarketing.
com.
You can see what we do there.
You can go to BenGlassLaw.
com to see how we take these principles and at leastin our digital website space, what we're doing there.
And our joint friend, Dan Kenny and I just published thefourth edition of No BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs.
And I added some parts to that book that, uh, hada sort of a much different angle than Dan did.
(38:49):
And the reason he asked me to participate in that bookis he knows I'm busy and he knows I got stuff done.
And, you know, he knows, like, That I'm ruthless.
He said in one of his newsletters, you'd besurprised at how much gentle Ben and, and
grumpy Dan actually align on these things.
And by ruthless, we mean, we don't meanbeing mean, but we mean paying attention.
(39:10):
And so we're helping to free up the entrepreneursso that he or she can, can do what they were born to
do, act in their zone of genius, spend most of theirtime there because that's how you move the world.
Um, and, uh, you know, we needto, uh, to support each other.
I think share ideas, promote entrepreneurism,and which is what you have been doing forever.
(39:34):
And ever you and our teenagerswhen we started leasing almost.
I love it.
Now, now you hear your story of three guysover at pizza shop, like I think that's right.
Pizza and wondering.
That's right.
You get the phone call from the fellowwho, um, who had a major re hoisington.
Yes.
Re hoisington solve the problem.
So good for you.
That's right.
Clate Mask (39:53):
Well, we'll keep, we'll keep teaching entrepreneurship and helping entrepreneurs.
Uh.
You know, work through the dark side of entrepreneurship,conquer the chaos and achieve the, the balanced
growth in their business and personal life.
That's what it's all about.
Thanks for, thanks for going into some of the marketingstuff, principles, the follow up, the relationship building.
I think that's one of the real, youknow, key things that stands out for me.
(40:14):
So you know, for our listeners,if you, if you're not really.
Connecting with your clients the way that youwant to, and you're not building relationship.
Take something from what Ben has shared here today.
Create something where you can, you can reallyconnect in what makes you unique to your market that,
that enables you to connect on a personal level andreally build that relationship, whether it's physical
(40:36):
newsletters or live events, or bringing people intoyour world, or, uh, I'm sharing your personal stories,
writing to them about the problems that affect themthat you can help address, that you can help address.
Those are the things that reallycreate great, great relationships.
And I think Ben, at the end of theday, that's why we do what we do.
We love the relationship building.
I appreciate our relationship for nearly two decades.
(40:57):
Uh, thank you for being a life, a longtime, uh, customer of ours at, uh, keep.
And thank you for all that you do to help.
Other small business law firms build theirbusiness with automation and follow up.
Um, we know that follow up is the great gamechanger and automation is the best way to do that.
Ben Glass (41:17):
I'm so glad that we could connect and have this conversation because it has been too long, my friend.
Clate Mask (41:23):
It has.
Ben Glass (41:24):
So I've really, I've waited for this and treasured this time that we've spent.
Thank you for having me on.
Clate Mask (41:29):
I have to thank you, Ben, for being here and thank you all for joining us on
this episode of the Conquer the Chaos podcast.
Until next time, get out there and keep growing.
Thanks so much for listening.
Subscribe right here on YouTube or in your favoritepodcast app to make sure that you don't miss a
single episode of the Conquer the Chaos podcast.
And Hey, if you like this episode, let'sget this out to more entrepreneurs.
(41:51):
We all know that it is not easy togrow a great business and a great life.
And so let's get this message out to others.
Make sure that you hit the like button that youcomment and that you share it with others so that
we can help other entrepreneurs build a greatbusiness and a great life as they conquer the chaos.
Keep going, keep serving and keep growing.
Hi, I'm Clayton mask.
And on the conquer the chaos podcast, I talkwith inspiring business owners about what it
takes to build a great business and a great life.
That means more money, more time, morecontrol, more impact, more freedom.
So keep listening to hear the tough lessons they learned.
So you don't have to repeat them.
Welcome everyone to this episode of the podcast.
(00:26):
I'm Clayton mask.
Co founder and CEO of keep and thehost of the conquer the cast podcast.
And I am excited today to talk to a longtimefriend, longtime customer, longtime digital mark
or direct marketer that I, we go way, way back.
And so this is going to be a really fun conversationbecause we're going to cover things from, Marketing,
(00:47):
business ownership, leadership, mindset, um,and help you to conquer the chaos in your world.
Let me, let me introduce to you this friend.
And by the way, this, this is also a customerwho has one of the very early, uh, domain
names of, of our, of our, uh, product.
And so, uh, this is a fun one because we go backprobably shoot 15, 16, 17 years, something like that.
(01:11):
So let
me welcome to the conquer the cast podcast ourguest today Ben glass Ben great to be with you here
Ben Glass (01:18):
Clay man, one of the fun things I host a podcast I'm on a lot of podcasts and so one of the fun things for
me is is I get my friends From that I've had from that.
We'll just call the Dan Kennedy world You know,for 20 years, sometimes we haven't been in the same
room, you know, in over a decade as it is here,and we're just going to riff and we'll let people
(01:38):
listen in on our conversation as we catch up on life.
You and I have both been doing this for along time, like serving small biz owners.
Helping the world move, serving really all the customersof the small biz owners who, who use your product or, you
know, in my case, uh, lawyers running small practices.
Yeah, it's a really fun place to be.
(01:59):
And you, you and I are survivors.
Clate Mask (02:04):
Very true.
Well, and let me just for, for our audience, letme just tell you a little bit more about Ben.
Ben is a Practicing attorney of 41 years.
Um, he many years ago recognized that marketingin small law firms was a real challenge and was
holding back these attorneys from building thekinds of practices and lifestyles that they wanted.
(02:26):
And they were being really kind of,um, Captive to their law practice.
And by the way, that has a lot of meaningfor me because I went to law school.
I've, uh, I worked in law firm, uh, before Iwent to business school and got into software
and I've seen the truth of what he's sharing.
I know, I know what he's saying.
(02:47):
So he started, uh, he started a practice to teachlaw Attorneys how to do great legal marketing
and the company is called great legal marketing.
And so we'll talk about great legal marketing.
Um, but he has been an expert in this area for 15 years.
So maybe tell us a little bit more about what you do, Ben.
(03:09):
Um, you know, you can.
Let's leave the law part aside for the most part, let'sfocus on what you do in teaching law firms because I
think that's that that applies not just to law firms, ofcourse, but I think it'll help our audience understand
the wealth of experience and knowledge that you have.
Ben Glass (03:25):
Yeah, so so thanks.
So primarily I am dad to nine, right, as youand I were talking about before we went live.
And so so that's the primary.
a very, um, sort of standardizedroutine growth path in legal discovered.
I didn't know anything about running abusiness, which led me to that world of
sales and marketing led me to Dan Kennedy.
(03:47):
Kennedy led me to then infusion soft now keep.
Um, and so, you know, if anything,I've, I've been a good student.
When I first heard Kennedy, um, His earlytapes that I got, I didn't understand half
the words he was using, let alone the content.
Yeah, but I realized, like, if I could figure outthis thing that they call direct marketing, if I could
(04:10):
figure it out, it would revolutionize the practice,because I don't see anybody doing this illegally.
Really, they weren't.
And so, we started creatinginformation pamphlets and booklets.
I mean, I was Remember, this is Yellow page days.
This is pre website, pre email.
Um, and so we were trying to figure out how to standout, you know, in a crowded market of, for those of you
(04:36):
who are young, you've probably never seen a giant yellowpage book filled with either the A's for attorneys or
the L for lawyers, just hundreds and hundreds of pages.
Um, so, so I started to figure that out and then, you know,thank goodness at the same time, you and your co founders.
We're figuring out that this, um, direct marketingwas a problem to be solved in part with technology.
(05:03):
Um, and so you all introduced Infusionsoft back in the day.
I was one of the early users and still am a customer.
And so that helped to automate, um, a lot of what we did.
And cause what, what we learned was you could,rather than shout, Hey, I'm here, come hire me.
You could shout, Hey, I'm here.
I'm here.
Maybe you have a question.
(05:24):
Here's some information.
Let me get your contact info.
Let me follow up.
Let's do all that stuff that we teach.
So, so as I grew the practice, then friends said,you know, Hey, you could teach this business.
As so many of your friends and myfriends, um, have done over the years.
And so we were one of the very earliest teaching lawyershow in the beginning Clayton was, it was teaching
(05:51):
personal injury lawyers how to advertise better.
Today, great legal marketing is really,it's, we're a pure coaching organization.
We don't sell services.
We don't sell websites or payper click or anything like that.
We help mom and pop who are growing alaw practice organically and not spending
tens of thousands of dollars a month.
We help them stand out.
In a very crowded market.
(06:11):
We help them compete against the 800 pound gorillas.
Um, and they do very well.
Yeah.
Clate Mask (06:17):
Yeah.
So let's, I want to come back around to thegreat legal marketing practice and what you
do there, but let me just, I want to, there'sa couple of things I want to touch on there.
The first thing is when you got into this niche, yourecognized that so many professionals Like attorneys,
(06:37):
doctors, accountants, they've been grown and taught andeducated to do their practice, not to do their marketing.
And in fact, in law, it's very interesting because.
I know in that, in that background, a lot oftimes the, the marketing is actually shunned.
It's looked down upon.
(06:58):
It's, it's like, no, you, you know, we, we can't do that.
That's, we'll just deliver great professional service.
And then, you know, the practice will grow.
And it's, it's not, the reason I want to draw thisout is, that that mentality is prevalent among
professionals who get their degree and their certificates.
And they think that that educationprepares them to go build a great business.
(07:19):
And and unfortunately, some hold onto that beliefall the way through to a You know, their entire
career of having a sub, a subpar practice fromwhat they could build if they would really dig into
marketing, but it's not just true in professionals.
I see this in this mentality exists amongmany business owners where they think,
(07:40):
look, if I, if I build it, they'll come.
If we build a better mousetrap, if we delivergreat service, you know, we'll grow by referrals.
All these things are typical mindsets.
That hold back the business owner fromreally growing and building a great business.
So I, I want to just kind of press down a little biton this experience because I believe this is a very
(08:01):
common problem that holds back small businesses fromaccomplishing what they want to in their business.
They don't develop this marketing mindset andyou dealt with it among attorneys and have.
Built a whole business around this, a wholecoaching business around this now for 15 years.
And so I'm interested to know, what didyou discover that needed to unlock for
(08:25):
people to embrace the marketing mindset?
Ben Glass (08:28):
Here's yes.
And I, and as you were speaking, the word unlock.
Came to mind.
So here, here's the mindset unlock.
It doesn't matter if you're a lawyer,it'll, it'll apply to almost anybody.
And, and, but the question I askedlawyers clade is this two questions.
Number one, are you a good lawyer?
So ask a room full of lawyers and they'll raise their hands.
We went to law school.
(08:49):
I passed the bar.
I'm a good lawyer.
Second question is important.
Um, is there someone in your town right now walkingaround with a legal problem or an opportunity for whom
you would be the perfect lawyer for them and they would bea great client for you and everyone is going to say yes.
Now it's a matter of finding that person.
(09:09):
Okay, well Clay, if that's, if true and true why would youlet that person wander into another law office for whom
the experience is not going to be excuse me, as perfect?
As it would be walking into your office,
Clate Mask (09:27):
right?
Ben Glass (09:27):
So now we call toward our um, jay abraham, you know, sort of the moral obligation
to market so to those who Say well, you knowMarketing's bad or I shouldn't have to market.
I'm saying you're doing Your community a miss service.
Clate Mask (09:48):
Yes
Ben Glass (09:49):
By not letting them know About what you do, how you do it, why you do it.
Now you are not going to be perfect for everyone.
We get it.
But, but why do we let people wanderinto, you know, you're a dentist.
Why let people wander into a practicethat's not as good as your practice is.
And if you don't believe, Your practice is good, and youdon't have a team that believes your practice is good.
(10:12):
Those are different problems,
Clate Mask (10:14):
right?
Ben Glass (10:15):
And we shouldn't do marketing to drive people into a into a bad customer experience Especially today
with online reviews, but let's just start there thatfor me Clay you serve the world Better by letting people
know clearly what it is you're good at and you like doing
Clate Mask (10:34):
Yeah, so you unlocked people's mindset by helping them see who they are for
the market and that it's a disservice To notattract that ideal customer into their business.
Ben Glass (10:47):
Yes.
I mean, that's a great great not craving the world
Clate Mask (10:50):
Yeah, great way to do it and I I think about some of my friends in those early days of law
who who were very opposed to advertising and marketingand It Fundamentally, what they're seeing is they're
looking at advertising and marketing is something theydon't want to be instead of looking at who they are and
(11:11):
who their ideal customer is, and then matching it up
Ben Glass (11:13):
100 percent 100%.
And so, you know, we teach.
This kind of hierarchy.
What kind of life do you want to live?
What kind of business supports that life?
What type of customer, patientor client supports that business?
Okay, if we can, if we have clear answers tothose three questions, then and only then,
Clay, do we think about what's the marketing?
Clate Mask (11:34):
There we go.
Okay, good
Ben Glass (11:37):
person.
Clate Mask (11:38):
Go through that hierarchy.
Yeah, this is really
Ben Glass (11:41):
important.
Really important.
You could be in practice for 50 years and even change.
So don't worry if you've been at it for a while.
And you can be in
Clate Mask (11:49):
business in any kind of industry, right?
I mean, this, that hierarchy you just went through.
What kind of, so go through what kind of life.
Ben Glass (11:56):
Do you want to live like what would be perfect for Ben and I give lawyers permission to
think that way like we have one Life, we don't knowhow long we have let's live in our unhappiness.
Okay, number one.
So then number two What kind of a practice?
Cause there's different kinds of law practiceswould support that lifestyle that you would like.
Some lawyers like to be in court, others don't.
(12:18):
All right.
Don't build a court litigation practice if you hate it.
Clate Mask (12:23):
Yeah.
Ben Glass (12:23):
Then number three, kind of who would you love to see walking through your door as a client?
Like what would go?
Yes.
This is perfect for me.
Perfect for that person.
Yeah.
Once we know those three thingsright now, what's the messaging?
What's the media to that person to attractmore of what we call my perfect client, my
(12:46):
perfect avatar to walk through the door.
Because when a clay, when, uh, in any business,When a customer comes through the door and the
owner and the team are charged up and love thework they do, the customer is better served.
Clate Mask (13:05):
And then everything goes more smoothly for not only the customer, but for the employees, for
the business owner, for the business owner's family.
So when you get clear that hierarchy, number one, whatkind of business, what kind of life do you want to live?
And then what kind of.
Business or practice would support that lifestyle.
And then what kind of clients would make up that sort ofpractice or, or business that supports your lifestyle.
(13:32):
And then now you've got to aplace where, you know, your ideal.
Customer profile, you, you know what your ideal clientlooks like, and now you can speak to that client
and get really clear in connecting with them, whoyou are for them and why you serve them really well.
And suddenly the job of advertise advertising andmarketing doesn't seem so used car salesman ish.
(13:57):
It's just connecting up who in the world is rightfor you and who you are right for in the world.
Ben Glass (14:03):
We don't force or fool anybody into coming to be a client.
With us, but we say very clearly what we do, whatwe're good at, and you know, we are good at a couple
of narrow verticals, um, and we have a lot of thirdparty sort of endorsement of that, um, and, and
the space where we play and compete with people.
People with other firms create is in the experience, right?
(14:25):
Because it's kind of hard for a consumer totell is lawyer a or lawyer B a better lawyer?
I don't know.
We're going to deliver the very best experience of anybodyin our region like nobody could beat us on experience.
So you create, then you teach
Clate Mask (14:41):
in your coaching, you're teaching your, your members how to build that kind of experience, how
to differentiate from others by creating the practicethat serves their ideal customer profile the best.
Okay.
Ben Glass (14:53):
From the moments they find us either by referral or find one of our digital
properties until long after the case is over.
Like we stay, we stay in contact, we staya part of their lives for as long as they
want us to stay a part of their lives.
Um, in interesting ways, whichis, you know, another whole topic.
But again, uh, you know, I remember walking intoyour, your, I think it was your old offices now,
(15:15):
speaking with, uh, Christina many, many years ago.
And you have these huge, larger than life.
Avatars like like everyone at it was in future self at thetime, but every employee knew like Hey, here's the four
or five different types of business owners that we serveand here's What they like and what they need and every
single day your team is walking in Not being distractedby life and all the many things we could say to someone in
(15:42):
advertising Right talking to those four or five Avatars.
So we're clear on what that is in our firm.
And again, any business owner, like adentist doesn't serve every mouth, right?
I'm sure.
Um, here's the other thing I believe,truly believe, Clayton is everybody.
Every human being has a unique setof gifts, talents, and interests.
(16:03):
And it is unique in, in mankind.
Like nobody else has your combination, right?
I believe that we're put on earth clay to, to shinethat combination of gifts, talents, and interests.
on the world.
Like, yes, things were good out.
We like don't do things.
We're not good at because Clay, you may bereally charged up by something that I hate doing.
(16:24):
You come work with me or we'll jointventure or something like that.
But that's the other thing.
I think a lot of lawyers and biz owners get,um, they get frustrated with life because they,
they try to do everything, try to be everything.
And they don't realize that they're really born to serve.
According to how they were made,like, and everybody's different.
Clate Mask (16:47):
Okay.
We're going to keep this going,but first a quick message for you.
Hey listeners, as you know, automation isthe great game changer in small business.
And every year we do an annual conferenceto bring together people who are serious
about growing their business with automation.
Now it also creates an amazing balance in your life.
That's why we love automation so much.
So if you are serious about the keys to successfor entrepreneurship and you want to do more.
(17:12):
Especially in these times, you want to make surethat you're getting the most out of automation.
Do not miss our annual conference.
It'll be November 20th through 22nd, right here in downtownPhoenix, with an amazing community of entrepreneurs,
business owners, and their teams who are looking togrow their business, create more time, More savings and
more control and gain more control in their business.
(17:34):
It's going to be an awesome event.
I love this event, especially the customercontests that show you how they're
using automation to grow their business.
So make sure that you sign up.
You don't want to miss this.
So make sure you register.
You can do that at keep.
com slash let's grow summit.
And take advantage of our early birdregistration pricing that expires July 30th.
(17:54):
You don't want to miss out on that.
So again, it's keep.
com slash let's grow summit, November 20th to 22nd.
It's going to be a fantastic event again, keep.
com slash let's grow summit.
We'll see you there, November 20ththrough 22nd in downtown Phoenix.
All right, now back to our chat.
That's the thing.
When you get really clear on that, what you're, who you are,what you offer, what you're great at, it becomes magnetic.
(18:20):
It becomes, you know, it's, it attractsthe right Pete, the right customer profile.
It repels the wrong ones, the onesthat it's not going to be a good fit.
And so.
So much of the job of getting really clear for themarket begins with who you are and what you offer, which
is why it's so important to go through that hierarchy.
(18:40):
You took us through.
Well, what do you want?
And what would create an idea?
You know, what do you want in life?
What would create an ideal practice?
That what's the ideal practice that would createthat and then getting really clear for your
customers about who you are and how you servethem in a differentiated way than somebody else.
You know, when, when you and I sat in theseconferences many years ago, we were, we were taking
(19:02):
in these direct these principles of direct marketing.
The, the, The technologies were different.
The, uh, you know, A.
I wasn't even a, you know,beginning to be a thing back then.
But, but the principles have stayed the same.
It's so interesting to me.
I look at I look at the people who practice,uh, the principles of direct marketing.
(19:25):
And it doesn't matter what platform they're using.
It doesn't matter if it's Tik TOK oremail or, or Instagram or whatever.
It doesn't, it doesn't matter.
Yeah.
It really is just a matter ofgetting these principles nailed down.
I remember when I was in that time, you know,and I was learning from, from Dan Kennedy
(19:47):
and, and, and others, Dan said something oneday that I will just, I will never forget.
And he said, You know, it's along the lines of thisconcept of, of realizing that you need to embrace
marketing and in order to grow your business.
And he said, you are a marketer, but you'renot a marketer of your product or service.
(20:12):
And when he said that, it was kind of like, okay, hesaid, you're a marketer of information about your product.
He said, you're a marketer of information,but he said, but you're not a marketer of
information about your product or service.
You're a marketer of information about the problemsthat are solved by your product or service.
And that, that progression, I'm a marketer.
(20:33):
But not about my product or service.
I'm a market of information, but not informationabout my product or service information about the
problems that are solved by the product or service.
And what, you know, when you see the people whoare really great in, in small business marketing,
they're really great at talking about the problemsthat are solved by their product or service.
(20:56):
And I I've seen, Uh, you know, I've seen you dothat in an amazing way in, in the legal niche.
I've seen so many others kind of in their niche, butthey're talking about the problems that are solved by
their product or service for their target customer.
So, you know, that was just, that was one of manyprinciples that I remembered from Dan when in,
in those early days that made a big difference.
(21:17):
And I've carried that with mefor what, 18, 17, 18 years now.
Ben Glass (21:21):
Well, think about why this is.
And it's exactly true.
But the reason why it is, is that when you justtalk about your product or your service, you're
talking about you, you, me, that, and that's boring.
When I create, we would call information marketing.
I'm, I'm not just educating the prospect.
(21:44):
I'm creating trust in me.
So so much of our marketing and we have to be carefulwhen we use the word brand and branding, right?
But for me, Clay, so many people knowme for reasons other than he's a lawyer.
(22:04):
Like they know this story.
Right.
So you create information that helpseducate because many people are searching.
But then you.
You disclose, and people know your story, and they seeyou as a trustworthy individual to reach out to first.
So, no matter, like, we want people to callus no matter what their legal issue is.
(22:27):
We only do a couple of narrowverticals, but my Rolodex is really big.
And I'm going to send you on your way.
And so it's another thing, it's a second thing that a lotof lawyers struggle with is um, you know, how do I use this,
these various media to not just make it all about me as Benthe lawyer, hire me, I'm the best, I get you the most money.
(22:50):
Right, that's plaintiff's personalinjury marketing in a nutshell.
Or Hey, you know, here's Ben, the soccer referee, down tonine, uh, running a couple businesses, loves small biz.
Oh, that's kind of memorable, right?
More than, oh, I had a car accident.
Clate Mask (23:06):
Right.
Ben Glass (23:07):
So there's a lot of layers to this.
And I think, you know, as you alluded to, Clay,the, the technology, the flood of technologies
today, I think, confuses people and slows them down.
They see Hillary over here doing this, and they seeClayton over here doing this, they see Ben over here doing
this, and then they try to do all three of those things.
Right.
Um, which is, nobody can afford,nobody has the time to do that.
(23:27):
That's
Clate Mask (23:27):
right.
Yeah.
So you talked, let me go back towhat you said a little earlier.
You talked about the interesting ways that you help yourclients to stay, to follow up after the case is over.
I, you know, You and I both know how critical follow up is.
I talk about this in Conquer the Chaos.
It's at the heart of the customer strategyof staying in front of the customer.
(23:52):
Um, what, what are some of the things thatyou've learned and that you teach your clients
that help to stay present, stay relevant,stay on top of the mind of of their potential?
You know, of their potential clients over time, becauseas we all know, you know, you can have this great
client experience and think, Oh, I'm going to growby referrals and they're going to come back to me.
(24:15):
The reality is.
They move on in life, they're busy doing somethingelse, and they have a need arise in their
life for your services, but they've forgotten.
So, what is it that you do to solve that problem?
What are some of the things that you'vefound to help your clients with that?
Ben Glass (24:32):
So first of all, this is a really important point.
80 percent of our money, or nearly 80 percentof our money, comes because somebody started
By mentioning our name to somebody else.
So that's important.
Yeah, we're old school.
I, I, it's old school, but everything old is new.
Um, we published an, a wonderful eightpage monthly newsletter from the law firm.
(24:54):
That's very little about the law.
It is about the personalities, eitherclients and client success stories.
It's about our team.
It's about books we've read and recipes andall this stuff that you would think like.
Well, who would read that stuff?
Our stuff gets put up on refrigerators of homes.
So
Clate Mask (25:08):
physical newsletter, you're sending a physical newsletter that people will put up.
Ben Glass (25:12):
Yeah.
It's so funny because, you know, as my young andmarketing teams like, Oh, we have to do newsletters.
I said, well, if you're going to do an email newsletter, ithas to be even better than a physical newsletter, because if
you think of all the emails you get and you just hit delete.
So, so you got to do something.
If you're going to, Put the energy into that.
Yeah, it has to be along the lines of whatever themost open, famous email, deliverable newsletters are.
(25:37):
And I'm not sure we have the bandwidth toactually do that, but that's number one.
Number two is we've got our referral sources.
So other largely professionals, prior clients, lawyers,healthcare, uh, you know, doctors, um, refers case.
So, so we have a whole separate newsletterfor them and that Clayt is mainly.
(25:59):
repurposing marketing that I write for the greatlegal marketing community, making it Generic
and agnostic to business and getting that out.
So again, that newsletter is not about,Hey, remember Ben, send me a case.
It's like, here's something I learned.
Here's a book, here's a podcastthat you might be interested in.
Cause I know that you're interestedin growing your business.
(26:23):
Um, so that's two things.
The other thing is, you know, we try todo as, as many person to person events.
We, we, when we built our spacehere, um, we built a training center.
So we invite people.
Community in to use it for free if they want.
We host our own events here again.
It's not always about how you do a case better.
It's about all of these things.
And so just where people walk into thelobby of my office, Clayton, they go.
(26:49):
What is this place?
Really?
Clate Mask (26:51):
It
Ben Glass (26:51):
doesn't look like a lot, right?
And so, and that's it.
So for us, so you can choose to spend a hundred Ka month on advertising, you absolutely can, right?
And if you're the largest spender in the market,you'll do well, but it can only be one of those, right?
The large, the large.
Um, and so we have focused on this so called grassroots,genuine, here's our story, but what's your story?
(27:17):
How can I help you?
Like, is there something that we could do for you?
And then we find Clayton's running a pizza shop.
Oh, great.
Let's, let's put a story of yourpizza shop in our newsletter.
And just tell the community and then you'll, of course,you'll take that newsletter, you'll put it in your front
desk or the front, you know, counter at the pizza shop.
So this is, but again, it's nothing new.
Clate Mask (27:40):
Yeah, these are
Ben Glass (27:41):
harder than doing one more.
You know, what do you call it?
Social media post of some image that goes on Instagram.
Clate Mask (27:52):
Well, what strikes me is it's very, it's very personal and very, it's
very, um, it's, there's, there's connection.
You're, you're doing physical newsletters.
You're doing referral networks.
You're doing events.
You're bringing people into your space.
You're getting, you're, you're,you're creating relationship.
(28:12):
In all of those things, you're, you're, it's a very personalrelationship oriented approach, which doesn't surprise
me that you Or an early adopter of customer relationshipmanagement software, because that's what this is.
This is managing relationships, buildingrelationships in a very personal way.
And it's interesting because what I've noticed over the lastcouple of years, I think it's really a post COVID effect.
(28:37):
The relationship building Therethere's a there's a void there.
There's been in a lot of ways, technology.
And I think society was moving so fast andaway from true in person relationship building.
And then COVID just put a huge freeze on it.
And so post COVID, there's kind of this,this rebound effect that's happening.
(29:00):
And people are craving this, they're wanting relationship.
And I think that's why what's old is new.
And, and, you know, Like you said, there's, there'san opportunity for people to inject genuineness and
personality and relationship and connection wherepeople have been starving for that for a while.
And it sounds like you're teaching that and practicingthat and working on that with your coaching clients.
Ben Glass (29:24):
And it is the huge opportunity, clay for any small business owner, like anyone . Yeah,
because that's, that's what differentiates,
Clate Mask (29:32):
it's what makes it different.
Ben Glass (29:33):
And it's, and it's more work than again, just creating another graphic for tick tock or whatever,
um, and not say a tick tock, you know, won't work.
I haven't figured out how to make it work, but, um, uh,but, but so the business owners who spend the time, I
think, going to events like yours, reading your, Podcastsand listening to this blog or reading your blog and
(29:59):
listening to this podcast are the ones who can find ideas.
That are affordable, doable.
You do not need to own the whole market.
You need a thousand true friends in any business who willknow your name and your story and have the confidence
to make a referral to you again, whether you're sellingsub sandwiches, counting services, whatever, like
(30:23):
it's business agnostic and that's the value really inlistening to, um, to your podcast actually, because
there's so you bring on so many guests who have.
These ideas and you just build and build and buildand, you know, you say, Oh, that's one I could do now.
I'm not really comfortable doing this,but here's another one I could do.
(30:43):
Or here's a team member who would like to do something that.
I'm not comfortable doing if it's, you know, I just sayBrian and I, my son, like we, we, we say to ourselves,
we're playing the endless game of business, right?
It's puzzle, puzzle, puzzle, puzzle, grow, grow, right?
Clate Mask (31:01):
By the way, that's one of the things about the mindset of marketing that I, I learned early on.
And I realized it's not, you know, manybusiness owners don't, don't take this approach.
It's.
We're in marketing.
It really is about failing fast finding, you know, learning.
Okay, that didn't work.
Okay.
Let me make this adjustment Well, maybe thatdidn't work because of this, you know, you don't
(31:24):
just try something and then throw it out Youadjust you tweak you modify you build on it.
You start to find the pieces that work for you Youknow, build that into a program, into a campaign.
And I think a lot of times business owners, they, theykind of have a, Oh, I tried that and it didn't work.
And they just, they move on.
(31:44):
It's like, no, well, what's the next thing you did?
What did you take from that?
That did work.
What did you apply?
How did you adjust it?
Like there's a, there's a formula for success inmarketing that you don't just discover right away
because every business owner is a little different.
Every, you know, they're, they havea different, Ideal customer profile.
So you've got to get that honed in.
And it's a, it's a trial and error.
(32:05):
And so I love that endless game of businesspoint that you're making, because, you know,
I think about some of the things we've triedover the years that just, they didn't work.
And you spend that money and youthink, Oh, well, we wasted that money.
Well, did you?
No, you didn't waste it.
You learned.
And now you're applying that to the next thing andworking to To get better and better for that reason,
(32:25):
you, you might've heard me tell this story years ago.
When we first started the business, I waswith Scott and Eric, you know, Scott and
Eric, and they're Sharice's younger brothers.
And part of the reason why I've always, we've alwayshad such an affinity with you is that you're an
attorney with nine kids and, uh, Sharice and Ericand Scott's, uh, dad's an attorney with 10 kids.
And so we've, we've, we've swapped some notes on that.
(32:48):
But one of the things that was so amazing Inthe early days when we started our business
was I came in as the person who understood.
Business partnering up with my two technologist brothersin law who were software developers and I was doing the
books the first week and I'm going through QuickBookson the line items and under the payroll section, there
(33:14):
was You know, there was us and then there was thisother name mark and I was like, and it was five grand.
And back then that was a lot of money forus each, each, um, month to be paying 5,
000 to mark when I hadn't seen mark at all.
So I go into these guys and I'm like,guys, you brought me in as a partner.
You didn't tell me you had this otherpartner that's taken 5, 000 a month.
(33:37):
And they're like, what are you talking about?
And I said, I was just doing business.
The books and it's in the payroll sectionsays Mark 5, 000 and they started laughing.
They're like, Oh, we decided when we first startedthe business that we were always going to pay 5,
000 a month to our marketing budget to make surethat we were learning and growing and developing.
And so we just call it Mark.
(33:58):
I said, that is hilarious.
And I've come to realize how.
Brilliant.
That was to actually allocate an amount of moneyevery month that you're spending on marketing and
you're using it to get smarter and wiser and learn.
And there were times where we spent 5, 000 ona direct mail campaign that got us zero leads.
You know, there were times where we spent 5, 000on a new source and it didn't work out very well.
(34:24):
We got a couple leads and it was, you know, really.
You could conclude that was a waste, but it wasn'tbecause we were playing, as you just said, the
endless game of business of refining our marketing,figuring out what was working, wasn't working.
And it was that mentality that I think was one of the, oneof the smartest things that we did early on in our business
to learn how to become marketers of our product and service.
Ben Glass (34:47):
It's, it is the advantage that the small business owner has, um, which as you know, the, the, the larger the
business and the more committees you have and the more Um,you know, hands in the, in the pot that want to, you know,
chime in on decision making, the harder it is to do this.
So, so, so that's one.
So trying things and learning.
(35:07):
And then of course, the other thing that's beengreat for me, and I'm sure you've experienced
this as well, is you accelerate that learning.
When you are in rooms of people who do thingsbigger, better and faster than you are.
So I have both been in and run mastermindgroups where either a room full of lawyers
or a room full of mixed businesses get in.
(35:30):
And so, Clay, you could say, hey, Here's a piece we did.
We tried.
We got zero.
Here's a piece we did.
We tried.
We got 5%, right?
A good number.
Let's just say, and then and then you go aroundthe room and out of the room comes always an
improvement on some part, either design or list or,you know, Um, uh, you know, call to action, right?
(35:52):
And so, uh, our friend, our joint friend, Bill Glaserwould tell us, you know, the entrepreneur is the
loneliest person in the world, and this is true.
And so what we want people to know, uh, you andI do on this podcast that, you know, one of the
best places you can be in is to find a group anddon't be the smartest one in the room, right?
Find a group of people.
(36:13):
I have found that successful peopleare abundance minded and will share.
Oh yeah.
No doubt.
Clate Mask (36:18):
Get into a mastermind or into a coaching group or something and it makes all the difference.
It definitely helps address that loneliness.
Ben Glass (36:29):
100%.
Because this work is hard, like, like you can, youcan decide to run a business and reap the rewards,
but that is a roller coaster and it is hard work.
And the world needs entrepreneurs and you can make just asgreat a decision to be an employee and supportive business
and a business owner and the world needs you as well.
(36:51):
And so, you know, Clay, part of what I do in life is justhelp people, especially young people, like what's a path?
The sad part is, lawyers, they go to law school, Clayton,they don't even, they see like this really narrow path to
big law, they don't even know that I exist, they don't evenknow that thousands of law firms like mine exist in America,
(37:13):
um, and so I think part of what you and I do is reallyhelp spread the message of, of entrepreneurship, you know,
capitalism, um, free markets, and goodness gracious, ifyou've got an idea, let's go and see if, if the world will.
Think your idea is valuable.
Clate Mask (37:30):
Yes.
And help you get it out there.
Well, I, you're so right about theloneliness of, of entrepreneurship.
It's, it's why we do our conference every year.
You know, it's coming up November 21st and 22nd.
By the way, you mentioned Jbram.
He'll be speaking at our partner day the day before that.
So that'll be a lot of fun.
But, you know, it's just a collection of, you know,what we call the icons of small business that all
(37:52):
come together and help Small businesses to growwith automation primarily is obviously our focus.
But but getting like minded people together andlearning how they can grow their business and
learning from each other is really the big thing.
So that'll be November 21st and 22nd in Phoenix.
Excited about that.
Um, Tell, tell people where they can learn more aboutyou, you know, if they're in, if they're in law and
(38:15):
they're looking to improve their legal marketing,they just want a little bit of direction and advice
and, um, where can people learn more about you, Ben?
Ben Glass (38:23):
Yeah.
Thanks for asking.
So it's a couple of things.
So you can go to greatlegalmarketing.
com.
You can see what we do there.
You can go to BenGlassLaw.
com to see how we take these principles and at leastin our digital website space, what we're doing there.
And our joint friend, Dan Kenny and I just published thefourth edition of No BS Time Management for Entrepreneurs.
And I added some parts to that book that, uh, hada sort of a much different angle than Dan did.
(38:49):
And the reason he asked me to participate in that bookis he knows I'm busy and he knows I got stuff done.
And, you know, he knows, like, That I'm ruthless.
He said in one of his newsletters, you'd besurprised at how much gentle Ben and, and
grumpy Dan actually align on these things.
And by ruthless, we mean, we don't meanbeing mean, but we mean paying attention.
(39:10):
And so we're helping to free up the entrepreneursso that he or she can, can do what they were born to
do, act in their zone of genius, spend most of theirtime there because that's how you move the world.
Um, and, uh, you know, we needto, uh, to support each other.
I think share ideas, promote entrepreneurism,and which is what you have been doing forever.
(39:34):
And ever you and our teenagerswhen we started leasing almost.
I love it.
Now, now you hear your story of three guysover at pizza shop, like I think that's right.
Pizza and wondering.
That's right.
You get the phone call from the fellowwho, um, who had a major re hoisington.
Yes.
Re hoisington solve the problem.
So good for you.
That's right.
Clate Mask (39:53):
Well, we'll keep, we'll keep teaching entrepreneurship and helping entrepreneurs.
Uh.
You know, work through the dark side of entrepreneurship,conquer the chaos and achieve the, the balanced
growth in their business and personal life.
That's what it's all about.
Thanks for, thanks for going into some of the marketingstuff, principles, the follow up, the relationship building.
I think that's one of the real, youknow, key things that stands out for me.
(40:14):
So you know, for our listeners,if you, if you're not really.
Connecting with your clients the way that youwant to, and you're not building relationship.
Take something from what Ben has shared here today.
Create something where you can, you can reallyconnect in what makes you unique to your market that,
that enables you to connect on a personal level andreally build that relationship, whether it's physical
(40:36):
newsletters or live events, or bringing people intoyour world, or, uh, I'm sharing your personal stories,
writing to them about the problems that affect themthat you can help address, that you can help address.
Those are the things that reallycreate great, great relationships.
And I think Ben, at the end of theday, that's why we do what we do.
We love the relationship building.
I appreciate our relationship for nearly two decades.
(40:57):
Uh, thank you for being a life, a longtime, uh, customer of ours at, uh, keep.
And thank you for all that you do to help.
Other small business law firms build theirbusiness with automation and follow up.
Um, we know that follow up is the great gamechanger and automation is the best way to do that.
Ben Glass (41:17):
I'm so glad that we could connect and have this conversation because it has been too long, my friend.
Clate Mask (41:23):
It has.
Ben Glass (41:24):
So I've really, I've waited for this and treasured this time that we've spent.
Thank you for having me on.
Clate Mask (41:29):
I have to thank you, Ben, for being here and thank you all for joining us on
this episode of the Conquer the Chaos podcast.
Until next time, get out there and keep growing.
Thanks so much for listening.
Subscribe right here on YouTube or in your favoritepodcast app to make sure that you don't miss a
single episode of the Conquer the Chaos podcast.
And Hey, if you like this episode, let'sget this out to more entrepreneurs.
(41:51):
We all know that it is not easy togrow a great business and a great life.
And so let's get this message out to others.
Make sure that you hit the like button that youcomment and that you share it with others so that
we can help other entrepreneurs build a greatbusiness and a great life as they conquer the chaos.
Keep going, keep serving and keep growing.
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Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!