November 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Hey lady! We know that the daily onslaught of the news of these times can be distressing and difficult to ignore. There are genuine reasons to feel alarm during the current administration but we are blessed to have a deep history of having visionaries, luminaries, and trailblazers offer a blueprint of how to imagine brighter tomorrows.
Octavia Butler is one of the most prescient artists of our time but her life was lived somewhat in obscurity, only coming to prominence long after her death. Yet, her writing gave way to world-building where weird, strange, genius Black women could write themselves into the future by being present with their experience.
Dr. Susana M. Morris, a waymaker in her own right as a founding member of the Crunk Feminist Collective and author of Positive Obsession: The Life and Times of Octavia Butler, explores how Octavia’s life circumstances, disciplined writing practice, and passion birthed works that offer a clear-eyed examination of society and culture while also giving full permission for Black women to indulge our imaginations for a beautiful future that includes us!
Join Terri and Dr. Dom as they have a spirited discussion with Susana about Octavia Butler and her powerful artistry. While Octavia made it clear that she was not a prophet; she was so deeply connected to her dreams and words that she manifested a body of work that has inspired generations of future trailblazers and wayshowers.
Quote of the Day:
"Black women writers are necessary so that Black women can define and depict their own experiences rather than being objects in the stories of others."
– Octavia Butler
Where to find Susana Morris:
Website: Susanmorris.com
Book: Positive Obsession: The Life and Times of Octavia Butler
Instagram: @susiemaye
Twitter (X): @iamcrunkadelic
Threads: @susiemaye
Goal Mapping Starter Guide
Cultivating H.E.R. Space Sanctuary
Resources:
Dr. Dom’s Therapy Practice
Branding with Terri
Melanin and Mental Health
Therapy for Black Girls
Psychology Today
Therapy for QPOC
Where to find...
Octavia Butler is one of the most prescient artists of our time but her life was lived somewhat in obscurity, only coming to prominence long after her death. Yet, her writing gave way to world-building where weird, strange, genius Black women could write themselves into the future by being present with their experience.
Dr. Susana M. Morris, a waymaker in her own right as a founding member of the Crunk Feminist Collective and author of Positive Obsession: The Life and Times of Octavia Butler, explores how Octavia’s life circumstances, disciplined writing practice, and passion birthed works that offer a clear-eyed examination of society and culture while also giving full permission for Black women to indulge our imaginations for a beautiful future that includes us!
Join Terri and Dr. Dom as they have a spirited discussion with Susana about Octavia Butler and her powerful artistry. While Octavia made it clear that she was not a prophet; she was so deeply connected to her dreams and words that she manifested a body of work that has inspired generations of future trailblazers and wayshowers.
Quote of the Day:
"Black women writers are necessary so that Black women can define and depict their own experiences rather than being objects in the stories of others."
– Octavia Butler
Where to find Susana Morris:
Website: Susanmorris.com
Book: Positive Obsession: The Life and Times of Octavia Butler
Instagram: @susiemaye
Twitter (X): @iamcrunkadelic
Threads: @susiemaye
Goal Mapping Starter Guide
Cultivating H.E.R. Space Sanctuary
Resources:
Dr. Dom’s Therapy Practice
Branding with Terri
Melanin and Mental Health
Therapy for Black Girls
Psychology Today
Therapy for QPOC
Where to find...
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
On this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I love a book with a map and a glossary,
But why don't I see myself reflected? And one faithful Saturday,
I go and I see parable of the Sewer and
there's a black woman on the cover. There's an illustration
of a black woman, and it blew my mind. And
I borrowed the book, you know, took that home, read
it and it changed the course of my life.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hey, lady, have you ever felt like the world just
doesn't get you? Well, we do.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to Cultivating her Space, the podcast dedicated to uplifting
and empowering women like you.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
We're your hosts, doctor Dominique Brussard and educator and psychologists.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And Terry Lomax, a techie and transformational speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Join us every week for authentic conversations about everything from
fibroids to fake friends as we create space for black
women to just.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
B Before we dive in, make sure you hit that
follow button and leave us a quick five star review. Lady,
we are black founded and black owned, and your support
will help us reach even more women like you.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Now, let's get into this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.
It's doctor dom here from the Cultivating her Space podcast.
Are you currently a resident of the state of California
and contemplating starting your therapy journey? Well, if so, please
reach out to me at doctor Dominique Brusard dot com.
(01:38):
That's d R D O M I N I q
U E b r O U ss ar D dot
com to schedule a free fifteen minute consultation.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I look forward to hearing from you today. We have
such a powerful guest. Okay, we are honored to be
in conversation with doctor Susannah M. Morris. Susannah is a
black feminist, scholar and cultural critic whose work centers the interior,
lives and experiences of black women. She's an Associate professor
(02:17):
of Literature, Media, and Communication at Georgia Tech and the
co founder of the Krunk Feminist Collective. She's held distinguished
fellowship and visiting professorship positions at Princeton University and the
University of Michigan. Susannah is the author of Positive Obsession,
(02:38):
The Life and Times of Octavia E.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Butler.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Her other works include Close Kin and Distant Relatives, The
Paradox of Respectability, and Black Women's Literature. The co edited Collection,
The Krunk Feminist Collection, and the co authored young adult
guide Feminist af The Guide to Crushing Girlhood. Well these titles, okay.
(03:02):
Her work has appeared in outlets such as Gawker, Longreads,
Cosmopolitan dot com, and Avenue dot com, and she's been
featured on platforms including NPR, the BBC, The New York Times,
and Essence magazine. The Lady let me tell you something. Okay,
there is so much more that we could say about
Susannah and her contribution to black feminist thought and culture.
(03:25):
But lady, we're going to go ahead and jump into
this conversation so you can hear directly from her. Susannah,
welcome to cultivating her space.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to be here.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
You're so welcome, Yes, and the feeling is mutual. We
are excited to have you here. And so we are
going to start with our quote of the day. And
this quote comes to us from your book Positive Obsessions,
and it is something that Octavia Butler said, Black women
(04:02):
writers are necessary so that black women can define and
depict their own experiences rather than being objects in the
stories of others. And I'm gonna read that one more
time for the folks in the back to make sure
you heard this. Black women writers are necessary so that
(04:30):
black women can define and depict their own experiences rather
than being objects in the stories of others.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Ooh okay, I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I don't even know where we're supposed to go from that, right,
Like Mike Drive all right podcast, I'm so done. That
quote from Octavia is so so powerful and so and
that quote is found within your book and so so
tell us, Susanna about what this particular quote means to
(05:16):
you in terms of writing about Octavia Butler. Yeah, so
the quote really encapsulates the focus of my career, right,
which is looking at how black women write ourselves into space,
(05:37):
into spaces, right, creating spaces for ourselves. And Octavia is
a trailblazer in a particular kind of way because she
is the first black woman to primarily publish in science
fiction and fantasy genres that really people you know, have
thought and sometimes still do think, are relegated. They're for
(05:58):
white boys, they're for white men, live.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
For men in general. And so she didn't let that
kind of notion overdetermine what her possibilities were, right. She
was committed to creating robust, complicated, flawed characters. And so
she's in conversation with your Tony Morrison's and your Alice Walkers,
(06:22):
and your Tony Cavem Barras and your n K j
Emersons and all the people, right, And so I think
that's what that quote really ependomizes for me.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's so beautiful, such a great grounding quote for this conversation.
And Susanna, we are going to ask about your origin story,
what we want to learn more about your background, But
before we dive into that, I think it's important for
us to set the table for listeners, especially black women
listeners who might be meeting Octavity Butler for the first time.
I know this felt like a research project for me
that I was loving. It was different from school back
(06:53):
in the day. I was like, I love this, this
is so interesting. So can we talk about just I
guess you know, I know presentation matters, right, we often
hear that, but when we think about Octavia's work, it
goes beyond representation right into prophecy. I know she says
she's not a prophet, but prophecy power and possibility. So
can you talk to us about, in your words, why
(07:14):
is essential for black women to know Octavia Butler and
the significance of her work right now, and honestly, like
what shifts when we encounter her, just to kind of
start there and then we'll dive a bit deeper.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So in the essay Positive Obsession, which is where I
get the titles from my book, Octavia closes by talking
about like why science fiction is important for black people
more generally, and just to paraphrase her, she's like, science
fiction is forward looking, it's expansive. It gets us off
the sort of you know, regular footpath that we're all
(07:49):
on and gets us to sort of think differently. And
that is particularly significant for black folk and for black
women even more particularly right because of these controlling images
that have overdetermined often how we see ourselves, you know,
are internalized white supremacy that we may have internalized, patriarchy, colorism,
(08:13):
all the various things, right, these shackles that we have
to throw off of ourselves. And so reading somebody like
an Octavia Butler, who not only have again these complex, flawed, interesting,
robust characters, but they're also in scenarios that are literally
out of this world for the most part, except for
the Parable series. It's that's definitely here on our earth.
(08:34):
But you know, sometimes we don't see ourselves reflected in
these kinds of narratives. And she's like, actually, we do
belong here. Because the kinds of existential questions that science
fiction and fantasy kind of invites you to consider. Black
women need to be at the center of those conversations.
They're not conversations for other people simply to have. These
are human questions.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Ooh, okay, all right, I mean I already there are
so many other questions that are coming up for me
as you share that in so many ways, in different
directions in which this discussion can go. But I do
want us to back up and let's talk about your
(09:21):
origin story and how did you get to be the
doctor Morris that sits in front of us, in front
of us today, that doctor Morris and your students referred
to you as. And how did it become that you
are so passionate about getting Oxavia Butler's story out there.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah. So I am from all over, but I went
to middle school and high school in Fort Lauderdale, Florida,
and that is where I encountered Otavia's work. Literally just
going through the library one day. I was in high school,
just a few years after Parable Sower was published, and
I'd never heard of Octavia Butler. We didn't really read
(10:04):
black literature in my high school. And I was in
a fancy magnet program, international baccalaureate program. We're all headed
to college and all that. We're reading all the Shakespeare
that we could find, all of the classics, but we
were not reading black literature. We weren't reading Langston Hughes
or County Cullen or insert xyz named Tony Morrison. We
(10:28):
weren't reading those people. So it was up to me
to supplement my education, which I did. But my favorite
genre was fantasy. So I was like, Okay, I'm reading
this black literature, but they're not coinciding. And I was
actually getting kind of frustrated with reading fantasy because I'm like,
I love this genre. I love a book with a
map and a glossary, But why don't I see myself reflected?
(10:50):
And one faithful Saturday, I go and I see Parable
of the Sower and there's a black woman on the cover.
There's an illustration of the black woman, and it blew
my mind. And I borrowed the book, you know, took
it home, read it, and it changed the course of
my life, you know. And then I would continue to
encounter her work as I progressed in my studies and
(11:11):
you know, became a black feminist, you know, professor and
literature professor. So I would always teach some aspect of
Octavia's Cannis, so maybe Candred, maybe a short story, you know,
something like that. And then I just was like, Okay, really,
what I'm teaching is black science section and fantasy. And
because I'm nosy, I wanted to know more about Octavia's story.
(11:33):
That's the real, real truth is I'm nosy, and I
would be reading, you know, and assigning interviews and things
from my class, so I wanted to know more. I
wanted to know more about her. You know, there's some
authors where there's just like tons of material, and there
was material out there, and you can, you know, read
interviews by her. There are interviews about Octavia or allb
(11:55):
Octavia on YouTube. But I wanted to know more. And
when she passed away into thousand and six, she left
behind like a really voluminous pressure trol of an archives.
She kept every receipt, every diary entry. She has diary
entries from you know, high school, her mother's diaries in there.
(12:16):
She kept every bill, every prescription label. I mean, it's
a lot. It was lots of way through, but that
was a place where I could get the answers that
I saw. So that's sort of the trajectory.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It was so beautiful to one. You're a great storyteller.
I was envisioning you at the library in Florida. You're welcome,
like seeing the book. And then when you when we
were preparing, I was going to ask like, did you
ever have a chance to talk to her?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Interviewer?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And I saw she passed away, and my heart broke
for you. I'm like, I wanted Suzanna to be able
to meet her and talk to her as well. So
I have to ask you, right, it's been almost what
almost twenty years or so since she's passed away, or
she since she's left this physical plane. So I'm curious
and your writing process right in the archives and those
quiet moments, did you feel her? Did you experience any
(13:04):
signs or any synchronicities or any moments where were like
I think that was her. I would love to hear
about that, and I will say if the answer is no,
can you talk about what happened inside of you as
you were gathering and shaping her story?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah. So I talked about this with one of my fellows,
sister writers, sister biographers, Alexis Pauline Dumbs, and as I
was wrapping up my book, and I'm, you know, interviewing her,
and she's very spiritual and she's recently written a biography
of Audrey Lord, and you know, so she's like, I'm
communing with Audrey Lord. I'm in the archive, and she's
(13:38):
just like, but I Tavia is a different kind of ancestor,
And I'm like, yeah, Octavia was a different kind of
is a different kind of ancestor. So in her life,
you know, she was raised Baptist, knew a lot about
the church, knew a lot about the Bible, but really
was an agnostic kind of atheist person. So I didn't
necessarily feel like, oh, her spirit with me, but her
(14:00):
energy of like getting your butt in the seat and right,
that's Octavia. Habit over talent, that's Octavia. You over here
sit and crying and going through something. Finish the book,
you know what I mean? Not that she didn't have
compassion as a person, or anything like that. But I
didn't have that kind of fluffy interaction with the ancestors.
(14:21):
It was like your call to do this, so do
it right. So a thing that you know she wrote
in her manifestations, which you know, I know had been
going across the internet, and I include a page of
it in my book. She would often end her manifestations
would so be it see to it? Right. So if
you declare you're going to do something, then you have
to make it happen. And that's how I signed copies
(14:45):
of my book too, right, So be it c to
it because that really is the mantra that was in
the back of my mind as I was working. So
that was like the spiritual kind of aspect to it
for me. You know.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
That was almost as we were trying to decide on
a quote of the day, that was that was our
that was the second runner up for the quote of
the day.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So be it see to it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Oh yeah, I'm feeling that quote just yeah as you
were saying it. So what we know is that like
Octavia like so like like quite a few other black
women writers, like one of my faves, Zora Neil Hurston,
(15:33):
didn't enjoy the fame and the accolades while they were
present here on earth. So why do you think her
legacy has endured then? But more so, like her popularity
has grown so much since her death.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, I mean she got to experience a little bit
of it. But she she died so young. She died
at fifty eight, you know, and so in her forties,
you know, she wins the MacArthur, you know, Genius Fellowship, right,
which is huge. That is a huge honor. It's something
that you can't nominate yourself for. It happens behind the scenes.
Other people nominate you and write letters for you, and
(16:19):
then they call you up and say you won. Right,
And she's the first black well, first science fiction writer
to win a MacArthur of any race or gender. So
we'll start there, right, So she got to see some
but after so many years of laboring in the vineyard, right,
I think because she died suddenly and there was so
(16:40):
much work that we were waiting on. Right, she was
supposed to continue the Parable series, which you know sort
of exists in bits and pieces in her archive. You know,
she published a novel the year before she died, and
so that sort of that novel ends with the kind
of implication that Okay, there's going to be sequels. There
was just so much, so much more she had to
(17:01):
share with us, and I think that the age of
the Internet helped that, you know, we're able to sort
of spread her community, like we can interact with one another.
You don't have to be an academic to be a
lover of Octavi or Butler right to be a fan
or a stand those kinds of things. So, you know,
I think that her sudden death immortalized her in a
(17:23):
particular kind of way. And sometimes this is unfortunate, but
people do get more love sometimes after they're gone. Right.
We see that with you know, fine artists, visual artists,
where it's like, oh yeah, this person twirled in obscurity
and then they died and it's like there's stuff was
worth a million dollars, you know. So it wasn't quite
that dramatic with Octavia, but there is certainly, I would
(17:44):
say in renaissance. I mean that's the term that another
writer who's written really beautifully about Octavia's life. I know,
George wrote about, you know, a renaissance in Octavia's kind
of cannon, like people are interested more and more every
day the adaptations the tell which just show you know,
all those things.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, that's so amazing, And I'm thinking about what you
said earlier. I remember a line in the book where
she said something like, don't depend on inspiration, depend on habit.
And so in all your research, it'd be really nice
to know how does she practice her calling? Because I
think I also saw something else where it said all
(18:24):
I do is write, or like all I'm here for
is writing, or something along those lines, And so what
would you say black women can learn from her discipline?
And how does she practice her calling?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, so when I Pavia went to the Clarion Writers' Workshop,
which is this famous science fiction and fantasy workshop. She
went in nineteen seventy and she felt like this is
a place where I really learned to home in my craft.
So she published two short stories after being in that
workshop in nineteen seventy, But between nineteen seventy one and
(18:55):
nineteen seventy six she didn't publish anything. She kept on
sending things out and she kept on getting notes right.
And while she's doing this, she's working odd jobs. She's
working in factories, she's singing office buildings, she's working in
like hotel laundries, like she's doing really hard physical labor
so that she can have odd hours and write whenever
(19:18):
she needs to write. So I tell that story because
it's an unromantic, un sexy story of being a creator, right,
because I think sometimes in our age or social media,
where we only show the good things, right, we show
when you win the award, we show when you go
on the trip. You know, you don't show the boot
(19:39):
when he acting up or when they're being whatever. You
show them when they're acting right or you're trying to
get them back right or whatever. Right, she had so
many years of just spoiling in obscurity and poverty, quite frankly,
and I'm not glamorizing that either. I'm just saying that
didn't stop her, right. She felt like she had something
to share. She had to do it. That's why she
(20:01):
called it a positive obsession. She couldn't stop herself from writing,
even when folks were like that, can be a hobby girl,
go ahead and get your good government job. Go ahead
and be a civil servant, be a nurse, be a teacher.
And she could have been any of those things, but
she had to be a writer. And she felt like
she had to focus her entire life on that. So
(20:21):
I think I think Black women already know that, though
I think we are kind of the er type of
like it stuff as hard. I'm gonna keep on doing,
you know, like that's far from my job. Let me
go get a master's, you know what I mean. So
I don't know that we need any more advice to
be on point because I think that we really have
that down. I think a thing that I've come away with,
(20:43):
you know, after writing this book is our table. Was
able to write twelve books, right, eleven novels and a
collection of short stories and short essays. That's a huge
cannon to have, right, and she could have done so
much more if she had more resources. So, yes, the
(21:06):
habit or the persistence over talent, because there's lots of
talented people who are undisciplined. Absolutely, But also I wish
that she had health insurance in the nineteen seventy. I
wish that she had somebody to help her do laundry
at her house, you know what I mean. I wish
that she had this infrastructure. And I'm preaching to myself,
(21:27):
but I talk about this with my homegirls, who are
also scholars. You know, running businesses, what have you? We
have to set up an infrastructure like self care is
beyond the bubble baths. It's like, can we split an assistant?
Can you hire somebody to clean your house? Okay, what's
(21:48):
going on? Because we can't do it all? Maybe it's
a skill share. Maybe we're all going around feeding each
other's house once a month. It's goes to a different person.
Because I'm this is not just from middle class or
upper middle folk, right, as for folks at any class level,
that we need this infrastructure and oftentimes we're the ones
holding our families together, we're the go to person at work.
(22:10):
So where did we get to sort of foreign to ourselves? Right?
And Octavia didn't always have that in her life. She
was creating in spite of not having the resources. So
rather than emphasize discipline, which I think is important, I
really want us to emphasize care.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
My drop on that that is so powerful. Thank you, Yes,
that is so important.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
So speaking of the infrastructure and the support system and
the sisterhood, talk to us, tell us about the k
Feminist collective and for those of us who for those
listeners who aren't familiar, tell us more about it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So that's my crew. We became friends in graduate school.
Now twenty years ago. It's hard to believe that I'm
a middle aged lady, but it has happened. I'm turning
forty five. Nice month. So twenty years ago, me and
my homegirls got together and this was the era of
crunk music, right where folks were talking about like, oh,
(23:19):
I'm getting crunk with that person, meaning you know, you
might have to get in someone's face, she might have
to tell them what it is. And so we put
together crunk and feminists, being like, this is a type
of feminists we are. We're hip hop generation feminists. Most
of us are rooted in the South some kind of way,
and so that's how we came up with the name.
And then fast forward to twenty ten. Brittany Cooper and
(23:41):
myself were talking. We were both professors in the state
of Alabama. I was at Auburn, she was at Alabama,
and we were young professors and we thought like, we're
kind to write about PLoP culture and politics in a
way that our day jobs didn't necessarily allow. And so
at the time it was like height of like blogging,
(24:01):
you know, and blogging was free we didn't have resources,
you know, except ourselves, So we just hit up all
of our friends that we knew were dope writers, and
we started this blog. And now we you know, published
two books, you know, one edited collection of our blogging
that came out in twenty seventeen and then a young
adult handbook that came out in twenty twenty one. And
(24:24):
we now have a subset because you know, we got
to go with the time, so it's not in blog,
it's a subset. So, you know, having this crew, which
we modeled ourselves after the Combahee River Collective, so Barbara
Smith and her comrades in the nineteen seventies. We're black
feminists who were like, okay, we're fighting for you know,
particular kinds of rights and to be understood in particular
(24:46):
kinds of ways, who themselves named themselves after the Combahee River,
you know, where Harriet Tubman was doing all of her
five stuff during the Civil War. So we try to
think about ourselves and that kind of lineage of you know,
black women, black black woman's sisterhood, black feminism, and so on.
So yeah, we are a group that writes together, but
(25:07):
we're also friends that literally have that mutual aid with
one another as well.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
It's so inspiring. Oh my goodness. So one's fine giving
us all ideas on how we can create lasting legacies
as well. And I think it's just so amazing too
that even though I'll Tavia about their transition twenty years ago,
like this book is out and like people are learning
more about her and her work and can go back
and read some of her other content. I wanted to
ask you a question. Oh man, I think it escaped
(25:35):
me at the moment. I had a question for you.
I wanted to know, let me see that it'll come back.
I'll come into another question I had if this comes back,
will circle back to it. But one of the things
I wanted to ask you about, Susannah is this had
me cracking out when I read this part. Okay, so
you described how wild Seed. You said it's unapologetically weird.
So there were black immortals, shape shifting and dolphins, you know,
(26:00):
like I loved it all, Like it was great. It
was a great book. What did Octavia? What would you say?
She gave us permission to do artistically and creatively by
being that expansive.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, I think that Altavia gave us permission to be
weird and strange, and oftentimes black girls don't get permission
to be weird and strange, right to be quiet, to
be reserved, to be introverted, to be you know, So
a story do they tell? In one of the first
chapters is Octavia hanging out with her friends at school
(26:32):
and they're all like talking about superpowers, as you do,
you know, I want to be invisible, I want to
live you know whatever. And they're like, well, what do
you want to do? And she's like, oh, I want
to live forever and breed people. And so that was
definitely a record stretch, like who wants to do that?
And but that basically that desire, that interest is what
(26:53):
became Wildseeed and the other Patterns novels. So she was
already thinking about those questions in high school, right, but
she was trying to find like minded folks like novels
that she loves. She'd go to like the you know,
thrift store and get or use bookstore and get copies
of them for like, you know, a nickel because this
is the nineteen fifties and sixties, and pass them out
(27:13):
to people, you know, her friends at church, like hey,
I want you to read this book with me. You know,
let's the equivalent of you know, today handing out I
don't know, hunger games or whatever it is, Harry Potter.
But you're a young person, right, and you're trying to
connect with other people who like those things. Maybe it's
harder for us to contemplate that now because again, we
do have social media, right, we have group meets, we
(27:35):
have all these different things. But back in the day,
fifty sixty years ago, sometimes it was harder for black
nerds to find one another, you know, especially someone who
today we would use the language of like neurodivergence. Right,
So some of o Tavia's social interactions when she was
a young person were like, you know, not what people expected.
It was hard for her to navigate socially. And so
(27:58):
I think it sort of just shows an example that
black women's genius looks all kind of ways. It might
be a little weird, amen to that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And so as you as you were doing your research
and immersing yourself in not only Octavia's.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Work, but like her life.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Mm hmm, what's something unexpected that you learned from all
of your research?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, I mean unexpected? Yeah, I would say, what was
unexpected was you know, here I am in her archive,
I'm reading her most intimate ideas. Now. She gave the
archives to the Huntington Library willingly, you know, I'll say that,
but still, you know, it felt weird sometimes being like,
(28:52):
you know, reading about her struggles with mental health, right,
or things like that. But what I think was most
surprising was just reading how she talked about herself. Sometimes
she was really hard on herself, and that was very
hard to read. Perhaps it shouldn't have been super surprising
because she was an artist, right, and she had high standards,
(29:15):
and that's not a bad thing. But you know, she
might write a portion of a chapter of a book, right,
and it reads very close to what we see on
the page has been published. But the way she would
break down her writing, oh this is not good. People
won't believe this. What am I doing? This doesn't matter.
I don't you know. I've lost it all Throughout her career,
(29:35):
well into the nineteen nineties, she's like, oh, this work
isn't good. So there's one moment that I write about
where she's literally coming from being honored as a distinguished
guest and she's on the plane and she was like,
I don't have anything to say. What's coming out doesn't
make any sense? Have I lost it? Am I still good?
(29:55):
You know? And that's not to pedestalize her, right, she
was a person was complicated, who have their ups and downs,
and who was entitled to that. But it's just hard
to see another black woman do herself like that. Okay,
well that was surprising.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think many of
us can relate to that too. As you were stating
all that, I'm like, she just seems so human, but
also there's this greatness, you know, where you appreciate the work.
But I think, yeah, many of us can definitely relate
to that. I want to ask you as well, Susannah,
what is a topic that you are really interested in
(30:34):
that you don't get to talk about much like people
are like, oh, I want to talk about the book
because this is you know, this is what we're promoting
on the book tour. Are there any topics that you
really appreciate that you don't get to talk about often?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And what are they?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
So?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I feel like I get to talk about pretty much
everything I want to talk about in general. I've really
been blessed on tour and in general to like, every
conversation is different. I've been remarking that to folks because
when full to read the book, they come away with
different things. So the questions that y'all are asking are
different than say, the questions I had last week when
(31:08):
I was at my alma mater, my Hoolyo College, and
I was, you know, in conversation with the president there,
which was amazing and super dope, and she was asking
very particular questions because she's a civil rights lawyer and
the president of a college, and so she just had
different insights. So I've been really challenged surprise, and I
am just eternally grateful to people engaging the books. So
(31:30):
people are just coming from all different angles. I'm like, yeah,
I love that, you know, so I've been getting to
talk about all kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
I love that. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yes, And so when you think about the evolution of
your career, right, so from being the young girl reading
in the like going to the bookstore, reading books in
the lib you know, in the library, and then now
(32:01):
you're a professor and you're writing the books that other
people are reading. When you think about this evolution of
your career is there anything that has really surprised you
in terms of where your career has gone.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, I mean I like I've saved you. I have
humble roots, right. Both of my parents are immigrants, Caribbean immigrants.
My mother has a grammar school education. You know, she
had to drop out of school to basically farm, right.
So in the third grade, my grandmother was like, you
have to work full time. Right. So that's my trajectory
(32:46):
from that, right to having a PhD. So I feel
very kindness, humbled by the shoulders, and I'm standing on
in particular kinds of ways. I'm not really supposed to
be here, right, Like the spaces that I occupied were
(33:06):
not really created for me, right. But I am coming
through the door with all sorts of folks behind me
that I've never even met, right, ancestors literal and figurative,
that are sort of like pushing me through and holding
me up. I did well in school, you know, I
wasn't a student who struggled in general. I mean, I
had mass was not easy. I went straight through. You know,
(33:27):
when people look at my resume, they're like, Okay, she
graduated high school, she went to college, she went to
graduate school, right, afterward, she got a job immediately. Now
she's in another job. She's written these books. Wow, you know,
but they weren't shooting with me in the gym, you know.
So and again, I first person in my immediate family
to graduate from college, from graduate school, you know, all
(33:48):
of those things. So and that's another reason why the
crew has been so important to me, because many of
my homies have also similar trajectories right where they might
be the first in their family to graduate. They might
also be first generation Americans, or they might have deep
roots in this country. You know, we all have like
our kind of humble roots in particular kinds of ways.
(34:10):
And yeah, I mean I love saying why I was
so supposed to be here. I tell that to my
students too. I often say, this classroom that you're in
with this black lady, professor, it was not supposed to happen,
And there are folks who would love for it me
to continue to happen, you know. So there's that My
trajectory is in some ways very straightforward, in other ways
(34:32):
really kind of a wild ride, because you know, based
on the stats of my life, I shouldn't need me
doing this.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Once again, so inspiring sho's getting And the next question
here is a two parter, and this part of me
is like hesitating on the second part because as a creative,
I'm like, this is the question everybody asks and are like,
I just released this project that we'll dive into it.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Ask away you already know?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Okay, first part is well, one, you've done so much, right,
You've already overcome so much, You've accomplished so much, You've
already made history in many ways. Right when you think
about just what you've accomplished, what would you say you
want your legacy to represent? And then of course what's
next for you? Like what do you envision next? I
know it's creatives. There's always something swirling around in there.
H So yeah, we love to know.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, so my legacy. You know, when I did an
event in Brooklyn at the beginning of October or September
thirty excuse me. And it was wonderful. You know, my
editors came and my homegirls from undergrad and just like
(35:44):
my partner was there and travel with me, like I
was saying with a homegirl, like it was just like
all of this chosen family. And towards the end of
the key and a. A was in conversation with ebe
Ze Boy, who's a writer I love in respect and
just it was just super dope in a large crown.
I was like, okay, look at me. So at the
(36:06):
end of the Q and A, I see a familiar
face and it's one of my former students from Georgia Tech.
The Meal, a young black woman and she is in
her being her second year in law school. I think
she did in her second year of law school. And
so she took several fast with me, super bright, you know,
and now she is going to be a lawyer. And
(36:27):
she got up and said, you know, I just want
to thank you for you know, being there for me,
for being a mentor, for being I'm like, that's what
it's about, you know. That's what it's about for me,
is being able to you know, mentor folks, particularly other
black women, to encourage people in the field, whether it's
(36:50):
to get a pH d, which is complicated. I have
lots of thoughts about that, particularly the academic industrial complex.
I'm like, don't do it unless you really want to
do it, you know, but just you know, it's real,
and so yeah, that's what I really think about in
terms of legacy is it's funny to me as a
professor folks, you know, especially with the climate now where
(37:11):
they're like you're indoctrinating students. I can barely get them
to read a syllabus. So if someone years later comes
back and says, I need a positive impact in their life, right,
I'm not telling them what to think, but I'm telling
them to think critically. Right. And Camilla's out here. She
you know, started a chapter of the NAACP at Georgia Tech.
(37:34):
You know, she's adult, so she's doing all this work,
all this volunteer stuff. What I mean, I believe the
children are our future. Like she is such a wonderful
and I just got to play a small part in
her trajectory. I got to pay it forward. When I
was at my Holyok last week, I was introduced by
two of my professors who are still there, who were
(37:57):
young assistant professors back in the day, and now they
have been professors for twenty something years, almost thirty years
in some cases. And I could see them looking at
me like we remember back in nineteen ninety nine when
he was in the class doing XYFB, and now I
get to do that for other people. So that's really
just and I want them to continue to do it
(38:18):
in their profession. So I'm looking at Camille like, okay,
so when you become an esquire, you have to make
sure you mentor this next group. Right. It's like Tony
Morrison says, like, if you make it, it's not like,
oh I made it, and then that's it. Right. You
have to pull people into the room with you as well. Right.
Power is not to be held on singularly. It is
(38:39):
to be shared with the group.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Right, beautiful, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yes, oh my, yes, that so beautifully stated.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
And so you mentioned being a professor at Georgia Tech
and in your bio you know as Terry ragelbio at
the beginning. You've written multiple books. So for those of
those listeners who want to connect with you, we know
(39:14):
they're going to go out and get the book. Yes,
how can they find you? How can they support you?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yes? So they can find you on Instagram And my
handle is a Susie May and may ye I'm on Facebook.
You know if you're still on the Book of Faces,
Susannah Morris PhD. I really left twitever. I have an
account over there, but I don't I don't go over there, really,
you know. And I'm trying to figure out my life
on TikTok, so I won't share that just yet, but
(39:43):
really Instagram and Facebook and Susannah dot com which is
getting Susannah Morris dot com, which is getting a makeover.
And I'm remembering I did not respond to your question fully, Terry.
So I'm still thinking about, you know, where I'm going next.
But so as folks follow me, you know, and subsect
as well, it's called the remix. I'm sort of thinking
(40:04):
about autodidecks. I'm thinking about folks who are self taught
in a particular kind of way. And I'm telling you
it was time that when Autodidex she went to Pasadena
City College or to the junior college still around, and
you know, she went to the Clarion Writer's Workshop, but
she was largely self taught because regular school just did
not connect with her. She was someone who had to
(40:25):
create their own curriculum. And so, you know, when we
look at her report cards from her primary and secondary school,
they say things like, oh, she's a day dreamer, she's lazy.
She you know, wish none of those things were true.
She was a deep thinker, and you know her her divergence.
Folks were not first of all able to really diagnose
(40:47):
that in black women well anyway, even to this day.
And she was born in nineteen forty seven. So in
working on this book, I've really been sort of interested in, like, Okay,
how have black folk in particular used like a life
library spaces right to create their own personal curriculum? As
the girls are saying on TikTok, like, oh, I'm making
(41:07):
my own personal curriculum for the fall. Well that was
on Tavia right, she'd be like, well, I want to
figure out what you know these aliens would look like,
So I'm going to go research marine life, or I
want to set my novel in the Amazon. So I'm
going to go to the Amazon and go with a
research group and do that research. And she's not the
(41:27):
only one. Some people have become famous, right like in
August Wilson, who would skip school so that he goes
to library and really learn stuff because he was learning
stuff in high school. And then think about the people
that we know in our lives, and it might even
be us, It might be your grandmother who is like
I'm a master quilter and I'm going to learn all
that I can about quilting. Right, there's a certain level
(41:50):
of expertise that folks at black folks that I think
we prize, and I think it's it's no surprise or
should be no surprise. These third spaces life libraries have
been under attack because they have been so important to
marginalized folk, in particular Black folk, black women. I just
(42:11):
went in because I moved recently and I got a
library card, and when I walked in, I just saw
all kinds of folk at the computers. As I was
walking in, there was someone who looked like they were
probably unhoused, who was also coming in, and I'm like,
and no one's going to kick him out. And he
doesn't need a library card. He just needs to show
(42:31):
up and be in the space and he can use
the computer. Right, he can be in a warm, safe environment. Right.
There were people there with their children. You know, people
are learning all kinds of stuff. So I really want
to think about that. It's very nebulous now, but you know,
as y'all follow me on the socials, you know I
will be sharing what I'm working on.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Well, that's so insightful, And yeah, we're looking forward to
that to see it in real time, to see like
how you evolve this next step in the journeys who's in.
We appreciate you so much. Thank you for the work
that you do, for the legacy you've already you're leaving
now and then you know what you're going to do next.
So we'd love to have people support you. Were going
to share your links in the show notes, and we
(43:13):
just want to thank you so much for your time,
your gifts today.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Thank you, thank you for having me. It's a row honor.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
If you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or unsure of your next steps,
this is for you. Hey, lady is Tea here, and
I just want to invite you to my free goal
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(43:41):
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Speaker 3 (44:05):
Thanks for tuning into Cultivating her Space. Remember that while
this podcast is all about healing, empowerment, and resilience, it's
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(44:27):
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Speaker 1 (44:38):
And before we meet again, repeat after me. I release
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Keep thriving, Lady, and tune in next Friday for more
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(45:00):
Best
On this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I love a book with a map and a glossary,
But why don't I see myself reflected? And one faithful Saturday,
I go and I see parable of the Sewer and
there's a black woman on the cover. There's an illustration
of a black woman, and it blew my mind. And
I borrowed the book, you know, took that home, read
it and it changed the course of my life.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Hey, lady, have you ever felt like the world just
doesn't get you? Well, we do.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to Cultivating her Space, the podcast dedicated to uplifting
and empowering women like you.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
We're your hosts, doctor Dominique Brussard and educator and psychologists.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And Terry Lomax, a techie and transformational speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Join us every week for authentic conversations about everything from
fibroids to fake friends as we create space for black
women to just.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
B Before we dive in, make sure you hit that
follow button and leave us a quick five star review. Lady,
we are black founded and black owned, and your support
will help us reach even more women like you.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Now, let's get into this week's episode of Cultivating her Space.
It's doctor dom here from the Cultivating her Space podcast.
Are you currently a resident of the state of California
and contemplating starting your therapy journey? Well, if so, please
reach out to me at doctor Dominique Brusard dot com.
(01:38):
That's d R D O M I N I q
U E b r O U ss ar D dot
com to schedule a free fifteen minute consultation.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I look forward to hearing from you today. We have
such a powerful guest. Okay, we are honored to be
in conversation with doctor Susannah M. Morris. Susannah is a
black feminist, scholar and cultural critic whose work centers the interior,
lives and experiences of black women. She's an Associate professor
(02:17):
of Literature, Media, and Communication at Georgia Tech and the
co founder of the Krunk Feminist Collective. She's held distinguished
fellowship and visiting professorship positions at Princeton University and the
University of Michigan. Susannah is the author of Positive Obsession,
(02:38):
The Life and Times of Octavia E.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Butler.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Her other works include Close Kin and Distant Relatives, The
Paradox of Respectability, and Black Women's Literature. The co edited Collection,
The Krunk Feminist Collection, and the co authored young adult
guide Feminist af The Guide to Crushing Girlhood. Well these titles, okay.
(03:02):
Her work has appeared in outlets such as Gawker, Longreads,
Cosmopolitan dot com, and Avenue dot com, and she's been
featured on platforms including NPR, the BBC, The New York Times,
and Essence magazine. The Lady let me tell you something. Okay,
there is so much more that we could say about
Susannah and her contribution to black feminist thought and culture.
(03:25):
But lady, we're going to go ahead and jump into
this conversation so you can hear directly from her. Susannah,
welcome to cultivating her space.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited
to be here.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
You're so welcome, Yes, and the feeling is mutual. We
are excited to have you here. And so we are
going to start with our quote of the day. And
this quote comes to us from your book Positive Obsessions,
and it is something that Octavia Butler said, Black women
(04:02):
writers are necessary so that black women can define and
depict their own experiences rather than being objects in the
stories of others. And I'm gonna read that one more
time for the folks in the back to make sure
you heard this. Black women writers are necessary so that
(04:30):
black women can define and depict their own experiences rather
than being objects in the stories of others.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Ooh okay, I mean.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I don't even know where we're supposed to go from that, right,
Like Mike Drive all right podcast, I'm so done. That
quote from Octavia is so so powerful and so and
that quote is found within your book and so so
tell us, Susanna about what this particular quote means to
(05:16):
you in terms of writing about Octavia Butler. Yeah, so
the quote really encapsulates the focus of my career, right,
which is looking at how black women write ourselves into space,
(05:37):
into spaces, right, creating spaces for ourselves. And Octavia is
a trailblazer in a particular kind of way because she
is the first black woman to primarily publish in science
fiction and fantasy genres that really people you know, have
thought and sometimes still do think, are relegated. They're for
(05:58):
white boys, they're for white men, live.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
For men in general. And so she didn't let that
kind of notion overdetermine what her possibilities were, right. She
was committed to creating robust, complicated, flawed characters. And so
she's in conversation with your Tony Morrison's and your Alice Walkers,
(06:22):
and your Tony Cavem Barras and your n K j
Emersons and all the people, right, And so I think
that's what that quote really ependomizes for me.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
It's so beautiful, such a great grounding quote for this conversation.
And Susanna, we are going to ask about your origin story,
what we want to learn more about your background, But
before we dive into that, I think it's important for
us to set the table for listeners, especially black women
listeners who might be meeting Octavity Butler for the first time.
I know this felt like a research project for me
that I was loving. It was different from school back
(06:53):
in the day. I was like, I love this, this
is so interesting. So can we talk about just I
guess you know, I know presentation matters, right, we often
hear that, but when we think about Octavia's work, it
goes beyond representation right into prophecy. I know she says
she's not a prophet, but prophecy power and possibility. So
can you talk to us about, in your words, why
(07:14):
is essential for black women to know Octavia Butler and
the significance of her work right now, and honestly, like
what shifts when we encounter her, just to kind of
start there and then we'll dive a bit deeper.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So in the essay Positive Obsession, which is where I
get the titles from my book, Octavia closes by talking
about like why science fiction is important for black people
more generally, and just to paraphrase her, she's like, science
fiction is forward looking, it's expansive. It gets us off
the sort of you know, regular footpath that we're all
(07:49):
on and gets us to sort of think differently. And
that is particularly significant for black folk and for black
women even more particularly right because of these controlling images
that have overdetermined often how we see ourselves, you know,
are internalized white supremacy that we may have internalized, patriarchy, colorism,
(08:13):
all the various things, right, these shackles that we have
to throw off of ourselves. And so reading somebody like
an Octavia Butler, who not only have again these complex, flawed, interesting,
robust characters, but they're also in scenarios that are literally
out of this world for the most part, except for
the Parable series. It's that's definitely here on our earth.
(08:34):
But you know, sometimes we don't see ourselves reflected in
these kinds of narratives. And she's like, actually, we do
belong here. Because the kinds of existential questions that science
fiction and fantasy kind of invites you to consider. Black
women need to be at the center of those conversations.
They're not conversations for other people simply to have. These
are human questions.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Ooh, okay, all right, I mean I already there are
so many other questions that are coming up for me
as you share that in so many ways, in different
directions in which this discussion can go. But I do
want us to back up and let's talk about your
(09:21):
origin story and how did you get to be the
doctor Morris that sits in front of us, in front
of us today, that doctor Morris and your students referred
to you as. And how did it become that you
are so passionate about getting Oxavia Butler's story out there.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah. So I am from all over, but I went
to middle school and high school in Fort Lauderdale, Florida,
and that is where I encountered Otavia's work. Literally just
going through the library one day. I was in high school,
just a few years after Parable Sower was published, and
I'd never heard of Octavia Butler. We didn't really read
(10:04):
black literature in my high school. And I was in
a fancy magnet program, international baccalaureate program. We're all headed
to college and all that. We're reading all the Shakespeare
that we could find, all of the classics, but we
were not reading black literature. We weren't reading Langston Hughes
or County Cullen or insert xyz named Tony Morrison. We
(10:28):
weren't reading those people. So it was up to me
to supplement my education, which I did. But my favorite
genre was fantasy. So I was like, Okay, I'm reading
this black literature, but they're not coinciding. And I was
actually getting kind of frustrated with reading fantasy because I'm like,
I love this genre. I love a book with a
map and a glossary, But why don't I see myself reflected?
(10:50):
And one faithful Saturday, I go and I see Parable
of the Sower and there's a black woman on the cover.
There's an illustration of the black woman, and it blew
my mind. And I borrowed the book, you know, took
it home, read it, and it changed the course of
my life, you know. And then I would continue to
encounter her work as I progressed in my studies and
(11:11):
you know, became a black feminist, you know, professor and
literature professor. So I would always teach some aspect of
Octavia's Cannis, so maybe Candred, maybe a short story, you know,
something like that. And then I just was like, Okay, really,
what I'm teaching is black science section and fantasy. And
because I'm nosy, I wanted to know more about Octavia's story.
(11:33):
That's the real, real truth is I'm nosy, and I
would be reading, you know, and assigning interviews and things
from my class, so I wanted to know more. I
wanted to know more about her. You know, there's some
authors where there's just like tons of material, and there
was material out there, and you can, you know, read
interviews by her. There are interviews about Octavia or allb
(11:55):
Octavia on YouTube. But I wanted to know more. And
when she passed away into thousand and six, she left
behind like a really voluminous pressure trol of an archives.
She kept every receipt, every diary entry. She has diary
entries from you know, high school, her mother's diaries in there.
(12:16):
She kept every bill, every prescription label. I mean, it's
a lot. It was lots of way through, but that
was a place where I could get the answers that
I saw. So that's sort of the trajectory.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It was so beautiful to one. You're a great storyteller.
I was envisioning you at the library in Florida. You're welcome,
like seeing the book. And then when you when we
were preparing, I was going to ask like, did you
ever have a chance to talk to her?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Interviewer?
Speaker 1 (12:42):
And I saw she passed away, and my heart broke
for you. I'm like, I wanted Suzanna to be able
to meet her and talk to her as well. So
I have to ask you, right, it's been almost what
almost twenty years or so since she's passed away, or
she since she's left this physical plane. So I'm curious
and your writing process right in the archives and those
quiet moments, did you feel her? Did you experience any
(13:04):
signs or any synchronicities or any moments where were like
I think that was her. I would love to hear
about that, and I will say if the answer is no,
can you talk about what happened inside of you as
you were gathering and shaping her story?
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah. So I talked about this with one of my fellows,
sister writers, sister biographers, Alexis Pauline Dumbs, and as I
was wrapping up my book, and I'm, you know, interviewing her,
and she's very spiritual and she's recently written a biography
of Audrey Lord, and you know, so she's like, I'm
communing with Audrey Lord. I'm in the archive, and she's
(13:38):
just like, but I Tavia is a different kind of ancestor,
And I'm like, yeah, Octavia was a different kind of
is a different kind of ancestor. So in her life,
you know, she was raised Baptist, knew a lot about
the church, knew a lot about the Bible, but really
was an agnostic kind of atheist person. So I didn't
necessarily feel like, oh, her spirit with me, but her
(14:00):
energy of like getting your butt in the seat and right,
that's Octavia. Habit over talent, that's Octavia. You over here
sit and crying and going through something. Finish the book,
you know what I mean? Not that she didn't have
compassion as a person, or anything like that. But I
didn't have that kind of fluffy interaction with the ancestors.
(14:21):
It was like your call to do this, so do
it right. So a thing that you know she wrote
in her manifestations, which you know, I know had been
going across the internet, and I include a page of
it in my book. She would often end her manifestations
would so be it see to it? Right. So if
you declare you're going to do something, then you have
to make it happen. And that's how I signed copies
(14:45):
of my book too, right, So be it c to
it because that really is the mantra that was in
the back of my mind as I was working. So
that was like the spiritual kind of aspect to it
for me. You know.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
That was almost as we were trying to decide on
a quote of the day, that was that was our
that was the second runner up for the quote of
the day.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So be it see to it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Oh yeah, I'm feeling that quote just yeah as you
were saying it. So what we know is that like
Octavia like so like like quite a few other black
women writers, like one of my faves, Zora Neil Hurston,
(15:33):
didn't enjoy the fame and the accolades while they were
present here on earth. So why do you think her
legacy has endured then? But more so, like her popularity
has grown so much since her death.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, I mean she got to experience a little bit
of it. But she she died so young. She died
at fifty eight, you know, and so in her forties,
you know, she wins the MacArthur, you know, Genius Fellowship, right,
which is huge. That is a huge honor. It's something
that you can't nominate yourself for. It happens behind the scenes.
Other people nominate you and write letters for you, and
(16:19):
then they call you up and say you won. Right,
And she's the first black well, first science fiction writer
to win a MacArthur of any race or gender. So
we'll start there, right, So she got to see some
but after so many years of laboring in the vineyard, right,
I think because she died suddenly and there was so
(16:40):
much work that we were waiting on. Right, she was
supposed to continue the Parable series, which you know sort
of exists in bits and pieces in her archive. You know,
she published a novel the year before she died, and
so that sort of that novel ends with the kind
of implication that Okay, there's going to be sequels. There
was just so much, so much more she had to
(17:01):
share with us, and I think that the age of
the Internet helped that, you know, we're able to sort
of spread her community, like we can interact with one another.
You don't have to be an academic to be a
lover of Octavi or Butler right to be a fan
or a stand those kinds of things. So, you know,
I think that her sudden death immortalized her in a
(17:23):
particular kind of way. And sometimes this is unfortunate, but
people do get more love sometimes after they're gone. Right.
We see that with you know, fine artists, visual artists,
where it's like, oh yeah, this person twirled in obscurity
and then they died and it's like there's stuff was
worth a million dollars, you know. So it wasn't quite
that dramatic with Octavia, but there is certainly, I would
(17:44):
say in renaissance. I mean that's the term that another
writer who's written really beautifully about Octavia's life. I know,
George wrote about, you know, a renaissance in Octavia's kind
of cannon, like people are interested more and more every
day the adaptations the tell which just show you know,
all those things.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah, that's so amazing, And I'm thinking about what you
said earlier. I remember a line in the book where
she said something like, don't depend on inspiration, depend on habit.
And so in all your research, it'd be really nice
to know how does she practice her calling? Because I
think I also saw something else where it said all
(18:24):
I do is write, or like all I'm here for
is writing, or something along those lines, And so what
would you say black women can learn from her discipline?
And how does she practice her calling?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Yeah, so when I Pavia went to the Clarion Writers' Workshop,
which is this famous science fiction and fantasy workshop. She
went in nineteen seventy and she felt like this is
a place where I really learned to home in my craft.
So she published two short stories after being in that
workshop in nineteen seventy, But between nineteen seventy one and
(18:55):
nineteen seventy six she didn't publish anything. She kept on
sending things out and she kept on getting notes right.
And while she's doing this, she's working odd jobs. She's
working in factories, she's singing office buildings, she's working in
like hotel laundries, like she's doing really hard physical labor
so that she can have odd hours and write whenever
(19:18):
she needs to write. So I tell that story because
it's an unromantic, un sexy story of being a creator, right,
because I think sometimes in our age or social media,
where we only show the good things, right, we show
when you win the award, we show when you go
on the trip. You know, you don't show the boot
(19:39):
when he acting up or when they're being whatever. You
show them when they're acting right or you're trying to
get them back right or whatever. Right, she had so
many years of just spoiling in obscurity and poverty, quite frankly,
and I'm not glamorizing that either. I'm just saying that
didn't stop her, right. She felt like she had something
to share. She had to do it. That's why she
(20:01):
called it a positive obsession. She couldn't stop herself from writing,
even when folks were like that, can be a hobby girl,
go ahead and get your good government job. Go ahead
and be a civil servant, be a nurse, be a teacher.
And she could have been any of those things, but
she had to be a writer. And she felt like
she had to focus her entire life on that. So
(20:21):
I think I think Black women already know that, though
I think we are kind of the er type of
like it stuff as hard. I'm gonna keep on doing,
you know, like that's far from my job. Let me
go get a master's, you know what I mean. So
I don't know that we need any more advice to
be on point because I think that we really have
that down. I think a thing that I've come away with,
(20:43):
you know, after writing this book is our table. Was
able to write twelve books, right, eleven novels and a
collection of short stories and short essays. That's a huge
cannon to have, right, and she could have done so
much more if she had more resources. So, yes, the
(21:06):
habit or the persistence over talent, because there's lots of
talented people who are undisciplined. Absolutely, But also I wish
that she had health insurance in the nineteen seventy. I
wish that she had somebody to help her do laundry
at her house, you know what I mean. I wish
that she had this infrastructure. And I'm preaching to myself,
(21:27):
but I talk about this with my homegirls, who are
also scholars. You know, running businesses, what have you? We
have to set up an infrastructure like self care is
beyond the bubble baths. It's like, can we split an assistant?
Can you hire somebody to clean your house? Okay, what's
(21:48):
going on? Because we can't do it all? Maybe it's
a skill share. Maybe we're all going around feeding each
other's house once a month. It's goes to a different person.
Because I'm this is not just from middle class or
upper middle folk, right, as for folks at any class level,
that we need this infrastructure and oftentimes we're the ones
holding our families together, we're the go to person at work.
(22:10):
So where did we get to sort of foreign to ourselves? Right?
And Octavia didn't always have that in her life. She
was creating in spite of not having the resources. So
rather than emphasize discipline, which I think is important, I
really want us to emphasize care.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
My drop on that that is so powerful. Thank you, Yes,
that is so important.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
So speaking of the infrastructure and the support system and
the sisterhood, talk to us, tell us about the k
Feminist collective and for those of us who for those
listeners who aren't familiar, tell us more about it.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So that's my crew. We became friends in graduate school.
Now twenty years ago. It's hard to believe that I'm
a middle aged lady, but it has happened. I'm turning
forty five. Nice month. So twenty years ago, me and
my homegirls got together and this was the era of
crunk music, right where folks were talking about like, oh,
(23:19):
I'm getting crunk with that person, meaning you know, you
might have to get in someone's face, she might have
to tell them what it is. And so we put
together crunk and feminists, being like, this is a type
of feminists we are. We're hip hop generation feminists. Most
of us are rooted in the South some kind of way,
and so that's how we came up with the name.
And then fast forward to twenty ten. Brittany Cooper and
(23:41):
myself were talking. We were both professors in the state
of Alabama. I was at Auburn, she was at Alabama,
and we were young professors and we thought like, we're
kind to write about PLoP culture and politics in a
way that our day jobs didn't necessarily allow. And so
at the time it was like height of like blogging,
(24:01):
you know, and blogging was free we didn't have resources,
you know, except ourselves, So we just hit up all
of our friends that we knew were dope writers, and
we started this blog. And now we you know, published
two books, you know, one edited collection of our blogging
that came out in twenty seventeen and then a young
adult handbook that came out in twenty twenty one. And
(24:24):
we now have a subset because you know, we got
to go with the time, so it's not in blog,
it's a subset. So, you know, having this crew, which
we modeled ourselves after the Combahee River Collective, so Barbara
Smith and her comrades in the nineteen seventies. We're black
feminists who were like, okay, we're fighting for you know,
particular kinds of rights and to be understood in particular
(24:46):
kinds of ways, who themselves named themselves after the Combahee River,
you know, where Harriet Tubman was doing all of her
five stuff during the Civil War. So we try to
think about ourselves and that kind of lineage of you know,
black women, black black woman's sisterhood, black feminism, and so on.
So yeah, we are a group that writes together, but
(25:07):
we're also friends that literally have that mutual aid with
one another as well.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
It's so inspiring. Oh my goodness. So one's fine giving
us all ideas on how we can create lasting legacies
as well. And I think it's just so amazing too
that even though I'll Tavia about their transition twenty years ago,
like this book is out and like people are learning
more about her and her work and can go back
and read some of her other content. I wanted to
ask you a question. Oh man, I think it escaped
(25:35):
me at the moment. I had a question for you.
I wanted to know, let me see that it'll come back.
I'll come into another question I had if this comes back,
will circle back to it. But one of the things
I wanted to ask you about, Susannah is this had
me cracking out when I read this part. Okay, so
you described how wild Seed. You said it's unapologetically weird.
So there were black immortals, shape shifting and dolphins, you know,
(26:00):
like I loved it all, Like it was great. It
was a great book. What did Octavia? What would you say?
She gave us permission to do artistically and creatively by
being that expansive.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah, I think that Altavia gave us permission to be
weird and strange, and oftentimes black girls don't get permission
to be weird and strange, right to be quiet, to
be reserved, to be introverted, to be you know, So
a story do they tell? In one of the first
chapters is Octavia hanging out with her friends at school
(26:32):
and they're all like talking about superpowers, as you do,
you know, I want to be invisible, I want to
live you know whatever. And they're like, well, what do
you want to do? And she's like, oh, I want
to live forever and breed people. And so that was
definitely a record stretch, like who wants to do that?
And but that basically that desire, that interest is what
(26:53):
became Wildseeed and the other Patterns novels. So she was
already thinking about those questions in high school, right, but
she was trying to find like minded folks like novels
that she loves. She'd go to like the you know,
thrift store and get or use bookstore and get copies
of them for like, you know, a nickel because this
is the nineteen fifties and sixties, and pass them out
(27:13):
to people, you know, her friends at church, like hey,
I want you to read this book with me. You know,
let's the equivalent of you know, today handing out I
don't know, hunger games or whatever it is, Harry Potter.
But you're a young person, right, and you're trying to
connect with other people who like those things. Maybe it's
harder for us to contemplate that now because again, we
do have social media, right, we have group meets, we
(27:35):
have all these different things. But back in the day,
fifty sixty years ago, sometimes it was harder for black
nerds to find one another, you know, especially someone who
today we would use the language of like neurodivergence. Right,
So some of o Tavia's social interactions when she was
a young person were like, you know, not what people expected.
It was hard for her to navigate socially. And so
(27:58):
I think it sort of just shows an example that
black women's genius looks all kind of ways. It might
be a little weird, amen to that.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
And so as you as you were doing your research
and immersing yourself in not only Octavia's.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Work, but like her life.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Mm hmm, what's something unexpected that you learned from all
of your research?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, I mean unexpected? Yeah, I would say, what was
unexpected was you know, here I am in her archive,
I'm reading her most intimate ideas. Now. She gave the
archives to the Huntington Library willingly, you know, I'll say that,
but still, you know, it felt weird sometimes being like,
(28:52):
you know, reading about her struggles with mental health, right,
or things like that. But what I think was most
surprising was just reading how she talked about herself. Sometimes
she was really hard on herself, and that was very
hard to read. Perhaps it shouldn't have been super surprising
because she was an artist, right, and she had high standards,
(29:15):
and that's not a bad thing. But you know, she
might write a portion of a chapter of a book, right,
and it reads very close to what we see on
the page has been published. But the way she would
break down her writing, oh this is not good. People
won't believe this. What am I doing? This doesn't matter.
I don't you know. I've lost it all Throughout her career,
(29:35):
well into the nineteen nineties, she's like, oh, this work
isn't good. So there's one moment that I write about
where she's literally coming from being honored as a distinguished
guest and she's on the plane and she was like,
I don't have anything to say. What's coming out doesn't
make any sense? Have I lost it? Am I still good?
(29:55):
You know? And that's not to pedestalize her, right, she
was a person was complicated, who have their ups and downs,
and who was entitled to that. But it's just hard
to see another black woman do herself like that. Okay,
well that was surprising.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think many of
us can relate to that too. As you were stating
all that, I'm like, she just seems so human, but
also there's this greatness, you know, where you appreciate the work.
But I think, yeah, many of us can definitely relate
to that. I want to ask you as well, Susannah,
what is a topic that you are really interested in
(30:34):
that you don't get to talk about much like people
are like, oh, I want to talk about the book
because this is you know, this is what we're promoting
on the book tour. Are there any topics that you
really appreciate that you don't get to talk about often?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And what are they?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
So?
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I feel like I get to talk about pretty much
everything I want to talk about in general. I've really
been blessed on tour and in general to like, every
conversation is different. I've been remarking that to folks because
when full to read the book, they come away with
different things. So the questions that y'all are asking are
different than say, the questions I had last week when
(31:08):
I was at my alma mater, my Hoolyo College, and
I was, you know, in conversation with the president there,
which was amazing and super dope, and she was asking
very particular questions because she's a civil rights lawyer and
the president of a college, and so she just had
different insights. So I've been really challenged surprise, and I
am just eternally grateful to people engaging the books. So
(31:30):
people are just coming from all different angles. I'm like, yeah,
I love that, you know, so I've been getting to
talk about all kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
I love that. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
Yes, And so when you think about the evolution of
your career, right, so from being the young girl reading
in the like going to the bookstore, reading books in
the lib you know, in the library, and then now
(32:01):
you're a professor and you're writing the books that other
people are reading. When you think about this evolution of
your career is there anything that has really surprised you
in terms of where your career has gone.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yeah, I mean I like I've saved you. I have
humble roots, right. Both of my parents are immigrants, Caribbean immigrants.
My mother has a grammar school education. You know, she
had to drop out of school to basically farm, right.
So in the third grade, my grandmother was like, you
have to work full time. Right. So that's my trajectory
(32:46):
from that, right to having a PhD. So I feel
very kindness, humbled by the shoulders, and I'm standing on
in particular kinds of ways. I'm not really supposed to
be here, right, Like the spaces that I occupied were
(33:06):
not really created for me, right. But I am coming
through the door with all sorts of folks behind me
that I've never even met, right, ancestors literal and figurative,
that are sort of like pushing me through and holding
me up. I did well in school, you know, I
wasn't a student who struggled in general. I mean, I
had mass was not easy. I went straight through. You know,
(33:27):
when people look at my resume, they're like, Okay, she
graduated high school, she went to college, she went to
graduate school, right, afterward, she got a job immediately. Now
she's in another job. She's written these books. Wow, you know,
but they weren't shooting with me in the gym, you know.
So and again, I first person in my immediate family
to graduate from college, from graduate school, you know, all
(33:48):
of those things. So and that's another reason why the
crew has been so important to me, because many of
my homies have also similar trajectories right where they might
be the first in their family to graduate. They might
also be first generation Americans, or they might have deep
roots in this country. You know, we all have like
our kind of humble roots in particular kinds of ways.
(34:10):
And yeah, I mean I love saying why I was
so supposed to be here. I tell that to my
students too. I often say, this classroom that you're in
with this black lady, professor, it was not supposed to happen,
And there are folks who would love for it me
to continue to happen, you know. So there's that My
trajectory is in some ways very straightforward, in other ways
(34:32):
really kind of a wild ride, because you know, based
on the stats of my life, I shouldn't need me
doing this.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Once again, so inspiring sho's getting And the next question
here is a two parter, and this part of me
is like hesitating on the second part because as a creative,
I'm like, this is the question everybody asks and are like,
I just released this project that we'll dive into it.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Ask away you already know?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Okay, first part is well, one, you've done so much, right,
You've already overcome so much, You've accomplished so much, You've
already made history in many ways. Right when you think
about just what you've accomplished, what would you say you
want your legacy to represent? And then of course what's
next for you? Like what do you envision next? I
know it's creatives. There's always something swirling around in there.
H So yeah, we love to know.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, so my legacy. You know, when I did an
event in Brooklyn at the beginning of October or September
thirty excuse me. And it was wonderful. You know, my
editors came and my homegirls from undergrad and just like
(35:44):
my partner was there and travel with me, like I
was saying with a homegirl, like it was just like
all of this chosen family. And towards the end of
the key and a. A was in conversation with ebe
Ze Boy, who's a writer I love in respect and
just it was just super dope in a large crown.
I was like, okay, look at me. So at the
(36:06):
end of the Q and A, I see a familiar
face and it's one of my former students from Georgia Tech.
The Meal, a young black woman and she is in
her being her second year in law school. I think
she did in her second year of law school. And
so she took several fast with me, super bright, you know,
and now she is going to be a lawyer. And
(36:27):
she got up and said, you know, I just want
to thank you for you know, being there for me,
for being a mentor, for being I'm like, that's what
it's about, you know. That's what it's about for me,
is being able to you know, mentor folks, particularly other
black women, to encourage people in the field, whether it's
(36:50):
to get a pH d, which is complicated. I have
lots of thoughts about that, particularly the academic industrial complex.
I'm like, don't do it unless you really want to
do it, you know, but just you know, it's real,
and so yeah, that's what I really think about in
terms of legacy is it's funny to me as a
professor folks, you know, especially with the climate now where
(37:11):
they're like you're indoctrinating students. I can barely get them
to read a syllabus. So if someone years later comes
back and says, I need a positive impact in their life, right,
I'm not telling them what to think, but I'm telling
them to think critically. Right. And Camilla's out here. She
you know, started a chapter of the NAACP at Georgia Tech.
(37:34):
You know, she's adult, so she's doing all this work,
all this volunteer stuff. What I mean, I believe the
children are our future. Like she is such a wonderful
and I just got to play a small part in
her trajectory. I got to pay it forward. When I
was at my Holyok last week, I was introduced by
two of my professors who are still there, who were
(37:57):
young assistant professors back in the day, and now they
have been professors for twenty something years, almost thirty years
in some cases. And I could see them looking at
me like we remember back in nineteen ninety nine when
he was in the class doing XYFB, and now I
get to do that for other people. So that's really
just and I want them to continue to do it
(38:18):
in their profession. So I'm looking at Camille like, okay,
so when you become an esquire, you have to make
sure you mentor this next group. Right. It's like Tony
Morrison says, like, if you make it, it's not like,
oh I made it, and then that's it. Right. You
have to pull people into the room with you as well. Right.
Power is not to be held on singularly. It is
(38:39):
to be shared with the group.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Right, beautiful, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Yes, oh my, yes, that so beautifully stated.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
And so you mentioned being a professor at Georgia Tech
and in your bio you know as Terry ragelbio at
the beginning. You've written multiple books. So for those of
those listeners who want to connect with you, we know
(39:14):
they're going to go out and get the book. Yes,
how can they find you? How can they support you?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yes? So they can find you on Instagram And my
handle is a Susie May and may ye I'm on Facebook.
You know if you're still on the Book of Faces,
Susannah Morris PhD. I really left twitever. I have an
account over there, but I don't I don't go over there, really,
you know. And I'm trying to figure out my life
on TikTok, so I won't share that just yet, but
(39:43):
really Instagram and Facebook and Susannah dot com which is
getting Susannah Morris dot com, which is getting a makeover.
And I'm remembering I did not respond to your question fully, Terry.
So I'm still thinking about, you know, where I'm going next.
But so as folks follow me, you know, and subsect
as well, it's called the remix. I'm sort of thinking
(40:04):
about autodidecks. I'm thinking about folks who are self taught
in a particular kind of way. And I'm telling you
it was time that when Autodidex she went to Pasadena
City College or to the junior college still around, and
you know, she went to the Clarion Writer's Workshop, but
she was largely self taught because regular school just did
not connect with her. She was someone who had to
(40:25):
create their own curriculum. And so, you know, when we
look at her report cards from her primary and secondary school,
they say things like, oh, she's a day dreamer, she's lazy.
She you know, wish none of those things were true.
She was a deep thinker, and you know her her divergence.
Folks were not first of all able to really diagnose
(40:47):
that in black women well anyway, even to this day.
And she was born in nineteen forty seven. So in
working on this book, I've really been sort of interested in, like, Okay,
how have black folk in particular used like a life
library spaces right to create their own personal curriculum? As
the girls are saying on TikTok, like, oh, I'm making
(41:07):
my own personal curriculum for the fall. Well that was
on Tavia right, she'd be like, well, I want to
figure out what you know these aliens would look like,
So I'm going to go research marine life, or I
want to set my novel in the Amazon. So I'm
going to go to the Amazon and go with a
research group and do that research. And she's not the
(41:27):
only one. Some people have become famous, right like in
August Wilson, who would skip school so that he goes
to library and really learn stuff because he was learning
stuff in high school. And then think about the people
that we know in our lives, and it might even
be us, It might be your grandmother who is like
I'm a master quilter and I'm going to learn all
that I can about quilting. Right, there's a certain level
(41:50):
of expertise that folks at black folks that I think
we prize, and I think it's it's no surprise or
should be no surprise. These third spaces life libraries have
been under attack because they have been so important to
marginalized folk, in particular Black folk, black women. I just
(42:11):
went in because I moved recently and I got a
library card, and when I walked in, I just saw
all kinds of folk at the computers. As I was
walking in, there was someone who looked like they were
probably unhoused, who was also coming in, and I'm like,
and no one's going to kick him out. And he
doesn't need a library card. He just needs to show
(42:31):
up and be in the space and he can use
the computer. Right, he can be in a warm, safe environment. Right.
There were people there with their children. You know, people
are learning all kinds of stuff. So I really want
to think about that. It's very nebulous now, but you know,
as y'all follow me on the socials, you know I
will be sharing what I'm working on.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Well, that's so insightful, And yeah, we're looking forward to
that to see it in real time, to see like
how you evolve this next step in the journeys who's in.
We appreciate you so much. Thank you for the work
that you do, for the legacy you've already you're leaving
now and then you know what you're going to do next.
So we'd love to have people support you. Were going
to share your links in the show notes, and we
(43:13):
just want to thank you so much for your time,
your gifts today.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Thank you, thank you for having me. It's a row honor.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
If you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or unsure of your next steps,
this is for you. Hey, lady is Tea here, and
I just want to invite you to my free goal
map like a pro coaching workshop, where I'll share the
five proven steps to get unstuck and achieve your goals.
Whether you're feeling overwhelmed by all your ideas, juggling scattered ideas,
(43:41):
or maybe you just need confidence to start, this workshop
will give you the clarity, tools and the motivation to
take back control. Reserve your spot for free by visiting
her space podcast dot com and clicking on the goal
map like a pro webinar link Lady, don't miss this
chance to build a roadmap that fits your life and
set you up for success. I hope to see you there.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
Thanks for tuning into Cultivating her Space. Remember that while
this podcast is all about healing, empowerment, and resilience, it's
not a substitute for therapy. If you or someone you
know need support, check out resources like Therapy for Black
Girls or Psychology Today. If you love today's episode, do
(44:27):
us a favor and share it with a friend who
needs some inspiration or leave us a quick five star review.
Your support means the world to us and helps keep
this space thriving.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And before we meet again, repeat after me. I release
the old with gratitude and prepare for the new with intention.
Keep thriving, Lady, and tune in next Friday for more
inspiration from Cultivating her Space. In the meantime, be sure
to connect with us on Instagram at her Space podcast
(45:00):
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