the significant consequences when you can decode non-verbal cues

The importance of listening at Level II, which is three-dimensional

• hear,
• see,
• and sense 

Noticing nonverbal cues and their congruence with their words is a vital skill toward becoming a deeper listener.

While these cues can be informative, it's crucial to interpret them accurately and consider the context.

During this episode we explore noticing

• the face,
• posture
• and breathing

As we delve into the world of nonverbal cues, we are guided by Susan Constantine, Robin Dreeke, Michael Grinder and Andre Agassi. These four perspectives will create a deeper understanding by noticing, baseline and interpreting a range of non-verbals

Finally, Agassi shares a secret about decoding Boris Becker's non-verbal signals which led to an eight-match winning streak in the 1990s.

 

 066: Listening to body language with Susan Constantine

077: The secrets of listening like a spy with Robin Dreeke

085: Hidden Secrets of how to Listen for non-verbals with Michael Grinder

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- I told Boris about thisafter he was retired.
We went out in Oktoberfest in Germany
and had a pint of beertogether and I couldn't help
but say, "You know, you used to do this
and give away your serve."
He about fell off the chair
and he says, "I usedto go home all the time
and just tell my wife.
It's like he reads my mind,"

(00:22):
and he said to me,
"Little did I know you werejust reading my tongue."
(upbeat music)

(00:49):
- The significant consequences
when you can decode nonverbal signals.
When you can listen beyond the words,
you can hear more about what they think
and what they mean.
In this episode of DeepListening Impact Beyond Words,
we'll explore listening at level two,
listening to their content.

(01:10):
What you hear, see, and sense.
And for a bit of fun,we'll also explore how one
of the world's best tennisplayers, Andre Agassi,
noticed something in BorisBecker's body language
that he could see unlike allthe other tennis professionals,
and was able to decode thesignal to his advantage.

(01:33):
Listening at level two,listening to the content,
it's three dimensional whatyou hear, see, and sense.
Today we're gonna focuson the second dimension,
listening to theircontent and what you see.
Some people refer to thisdimension as body language

(01:53):
or nonverbal signals.
It's foundational and mostpeople oversimplify it
and misjudge the content that they see.
I spent some time divinginto the database,
where we've got over 30,000responses from people
who describe what they struggle with

(02:14):
when it comes to their listening.
You can visit listeningquiz.com and take the assessment
and find out what's getting in your way.
Here's some of the comments.
How do I even pick up on body language?
I struggle to understandwhat nonverbal cues are.
It's challenging to deciphernonverbal cues in video

(02:37):
conferences like Microsoft Teams.
I get distracted by their body language
and facial features when they're talking.
What do I interpret whensomebody provides me
with a blank facial expression?
I'm sure you can relate tosome if not all of these,
about barriers that are getting in the way
when we're listening on thesecond dimension at level two,

(03:01):
what we see, look just a little caution
before we continue with bodylanguage and nonverbal signals,
a reminder, to advance andbe effective at level two,
you need to have mastered levelone, listening to yourself.
It's important that you master level one,

(03:23):
so you can sustain effectivelistening at level two.
Otherwise, people describelistening at this level
as difficult, draining, distracting.
Please make sure you've got your level one
fundamentals in place.
Now, level two is about what they say

(03:46):
and how they say it.
It may be the difference between
how they tell stories versuswhen they use statistics.
They may lead with one
or another in a typical dialogue with you
and their facial expressionsshould be congruent with that.
Does their face light up morewhen they're telling the story

(04:08):
or when they're delivering the statistics?
I want to share with you anextract from chapter four
of the book "How to Listen,"where we unpack the concept
of body language.
(droplets plinking)
Body language, visualsignals from the speaker

(04:31):
are commonly referred to as body language.
Consider this hierarchy as a way
to start noticing body language
and when you feel comfortable
that you have increased yourawareness at this level,
progress to the next.
First the face, then posture,and finally breathing.

(04:52):
Paul Ekman is the foundationalscholar of body language.
He's authored 14 books
and defined seven universalfacial expressions,
anger, contempt, disgust, fear, happiness,
sadness, and surprise.
Ekman breaks these down muchfurther into micro expressions.

(05:13):
These micro expressions are influenced
by facial muscles includingthe eyes, the eyebrows,
nose, cheeks, and lips.
Throughout his work, Ekmanreinforces that the alignment
between these facial and body expressions
is the essence of reading body language.

(05:34):
Don't become too obsessedor fixated on individual
micro level body language signals.
Ironically, this will distractyou from your listening.
Notice the disconnectbetween what they say
and how their face look.
I interviewed Susan Constantine,who studied under Ekman

(05:55):
and has applied herfocus in legal disputes
and law enforcement.
She reminded me of the fallacy
of being fixated on oneelement of body language.
(droplets plinking)
And as humans looking at themicroexpressions of others,
we pick up those cuessubconsciously ourselves.

(06:18):
- There's a lot ofresearch around that too
that people might look atsomeone across from them
and saying, "Is there somethingwrong? Are you mad at me?"
Now, why would they know that?
How would they know that?
That's because their facial expression is
different from their norm.
It's more tightened. Theireyebrows are more narrowed.
Their facial expression looks more tense,
so naturally human beings can pick up

(06:41):
on certain expressions,
but what they're notreally good at doing is
decoding them accurately,
because environment situationscan affect those emotions.
You don't know what happened five minutes
before that person walked into the office.
You don't know if that personwas on a phone call with one

(07:02):
of their kids or their wife
or somebody else thatcreated that expression,
that emotion that they had.
But what we do know is
that emotions arewritten all over our face
and they can be read by thehuman eye if you know how
to decode it properly, butyou have to be trained.
I really caution people tomake observations about others

(07:25):
and decode it on their ownwithout the proper training
because research has told us
that about 50% at best arepeople at reading people.
It's their luck isabout us flipping a coin
and that includes federal law enforcement,
clinical psychologists, andI train federal court judges.
I can tell you right now,

(07:46):
most of them can't detect deception.
They get very skewedbecause they're watching
so many people lying to them.
They assume thateverybody's lying to them.
They pick up on one clue,automatically they're lying.
But you can really misread people,
because there are certainpeople in certain situations,
if a person was never broughtinto the office before

(08:07):
and they're gonna bereprimanded by their boss,
and since that's never happened,that could create anxiety
and they could show all kindsof physiological changes
in their facial expressions
and their body language.
That could be a misread just
because of the entireenvironment was unfamiliar.

(08:27):
- I want to reinforce becomingan expert at reading eye
movements and facialexpressions is a full-time job,
and when it comes to noticingfacial expressions, your role
as a listener is to become present enough
to see any disconnect betweentheir face, their posture,
their breathing, and what they say.

(08:48):
When I was working with my client, Rachel,
I noticed her body language
and provided her with greaterinsight into what was said,
thought and meant.
She was responsible forthe merger integration
of two different sized companiesin the finance industry.
The acquiring companywas four times larger

(09:12):
than the other company.
After three months of working together,
we met up on the 32nd floor
of the commercial businessdistrict head office
building she was in.
As the meeting started, I asked
what would make this agreat meeting for you.
Rachel launched into a familiarpattern about the struggle

(09:34):
around the merger integration,how no one understood
how difficult it was
and whether she cared about the outcome.
Rachel had created astory that it's unfair
for the person from the acquired company
to lead the integration intothe acquiring organization.

(09:54):
She felt that the acquiringorganization should do it.
The dialogue continued for 10 minutes.
Yet at the seven minutemark, Rachel paused,
took a deep breath, her spineand shoulders changed position
and then she continued speakinguntil she was exhausted

(10:16):
by her own story.
I noticed the disconnectbetween what she was saying
and her body at the seven minute mark.
I made a mental note
to reflect this back to Rachel.
"When you took a breath,what happened?" I asked.
Rachel said...
- Took a breath. When?

(10:36):
- Here I could have repliedinstantly saying something like
"At the seven minutemark when you said..."
Instead I paused
and took a deep breath myself
as I silently mirrored her body language.
In response, Rachel said...
- I was frustrated with being frustrated.
I paused and realized thatI'm draining myself of energy

(10:58):
by rehashing this issue.
It's time, I can stayfrustrated or change,
although that's not what I said.
I had to verbalize every remaining excuse.
I want to move forward.
- Ultimately, when younotice the disconnection
between their words
and their body language,it's not about you.

(11:20):
It's about helping the speaker understand
what has altered in their thinking.
Be present to notice thedisconnect between what they say
and how it shows up in their bodies.
(droplets plinking)
If you want to hear more orread more about the book,

(11:41):
"How to Listen," andit's now won four awards
across the globe and overa hundred wonderful reviews
on Amazon and Goodreads.
Thank you to everybody who's
provided their reviews about the book.
If you go tooscartrimboli.com/how to listen,

(12:02):
no matter which countryin the world you're in,
we'll provide the coordinatesfor how you can get
your hands on a copy of the book
or you can listen via yourfavorite audiobook platform.
If you'd like to hear thefull episode of Susan and I,
visit oscartrimboli.com/podcast/066.

(12:27):
That's episode 66 with Susan and I,
and you can listen to thecomplete episode there.
The point Susan's made is reinforced
by Robin Drake from episode 77,
"The Secrets of Listening Like a Spy"
and Episode 85 with Michael Grinder,
"Hidden Secrets Of How ToListen For The Nonverbals."

(12:51):
Both explain the conceptof baselining body language
and nonverbals, and the importance
of noticing variation or congruence.
I thought I would shareRobin's point first
and then Michael willfollow up immediately after.
(droplets plinking)

(13:15):
- I used to be a nonverbal expert.
I only looked at nonverbalswhen interacting from the tip
of the toes to the top of the head.
But over the years myfocus became on interacting
with human beings in thegeneral and to make alignments
of relationships, I can'tbe watching your entire body
and also listening to your words

(13:36):
'cause the words to me aremuch more important than
everything your body is saying.
I now focus mostlycompletely really on the face
and anything that comesin within proximity of it
if you have hand movementsup there or something.
And breathing willdefinitely be part of that.
I won't notice breathingunless it is outside
of a basic norm is a good way to put it.
Same thing with eye blinkrates, flutters, lip movements.

(13:56):
When you first meet someone,
your body naturally establishesa nonverbal baseline for
that individual and then during the course
of the conversation, you'regonna start identifying things
that are now becomingincongruent with what's normal
for them during thatbaseline establishment.
(droplets plinking)
- The baseline of whatdo most people look like,

(14:19):
what most people soundlike, how they move,
and literally how they breathe.
And once you have that as a baseline,
I would strongly suggest thatanytime there is a change
in terms of speed
or volume increase in the voice,
the person is marking off

(14:41):
that whatever they'resaying is they would really
like you to hear that.
(serene music)
Whatever they say that's aconstant, face, voice, body,
that's really the baseline.
It's the background, it's the noise.
If you wanna know theforeground, they'll mark it off.

(15:03):
In most of the Western world,when you increase your volume
and your voice, you'retrying to become emphatic.
If you decrease yourvolume and your voice,
you're marking off.
But I wanna suggest it's adeeper level of the human being.
A drop of volume and speedoftentimes is more vulnerability.

(15:26):
(droplets plinking)
- When you can listen to thenonverbal signals effectively
without draining ordrawing your attention away
from what they're saying,
you'll create a much biggerimpact for them and for you.
Earlier on, we mentioned we're going
to take a little detourinto the world of tennis.
It's extremely relatedto nonverbal signals.

(15:50):
In 1988, Andre Agassi, only 18 years old,
was facing Boris Becker,who was 21 at the time,
and it was a semifinal
of the Indian Wells Tennis Tournament.
Despite a hard fought three set match,
Agassi was defeated 7-5 in the final set.

(16:11):
For those who followedtennis, they'll tell you
that was a reallydifficult and close match.
The pair met each other again in 1989,
and both times Becker again was successful
in defeating Agassi.
Yet in 1990 something changed,
and for the next eightconsecutive matches,

(16:34):
Agassi beat Becker every single time.
Just like business, thereare many variables in tennis,
yet I think you'll enjoyAndre Agassi's explanation
of why he thinks he defeated Becker
over this five-year run.
(droplets plinking)

(16:56):
- Tennis is about problem solving
and you can't problem solveunless you have the ability
or the empathy to perceiveall that's around you.
The more you understandwhat the problem is
through other people'slens, the more you can solve
for people in life and in visions.
Boris Becker beat me thefirst three times we played

(17:17):
'cause his serve was something the game
had never seen before.
I watched tape after tape of him
and stood across the net fromhim three different times,
and I started to realize he had this weird
tick with his tongue.
I'm not kidding.
He would go into his rocking motion,
his same routine,
and just as he was about to toss the ball,
he would stick his tongue out
and it would either be rightin the middle of his lip

(17:40):
or it would be to theleft corner of his lip.
If he's serving in the deuce court,
and he put his tongue inthe middle of his lip,
he was either serving upthe middle or to the body,
but if he put it to the side,he was gonna serve out wide.
The hardest part wasn't returning a serve.
The hardest part was not lettinghim know that I knew this.
I had to resist the temptationof reading his serve

(18:03):
for the majority of the match
and choose the momentswhen I was gonna use
that information on a givenpoint to execute the shot
that would allow me tobreak the match open.
That was a difficulty with worse.
I didn't have a problembreaking the serve.
I had a problem hiding the fact
that I could break his serve at will
'cause I just didn't want him

(18:24):
to keep that tongue in his mouth.
I wanted it to keep coming out.
I told Boris about thisafter he was retired
'cause I just showed reallygood judgment from my own self
preservation and didn'tshare this with him before.
We went out in Oktoberfest in Germany
and had a pint of beertogether and I couldn't help
but say, you know, you used
to do this and give when you served.

(18:44):
He about fell off the chair
and he says, I used togo home all the time
and just tell my wife,
it's like he reads my mind.
And he said to me,
little did I know you werejust reading my tongue.
(droplets plinking)
- Whether you're atennis enthusiast or not,

(19:07):
I think the lesson is simple.
Everybody is sending outnonverbal signals when they're
performing their work, whenthey're in dialogue with you,
and everybody who's watching can see
these nonverbal signals.
Yet it takes a very attuned, deep listener

(19:30):
to decipher these signalsto improve performance.
I think every other tennis professional
who played Becker would'veseen his tongue move,
yet it was only Agassi, whowas able to decipher that
and use that in a way thatwas effective for him.

(19:52):
If you'd like to learn moreabout these skills at level two,
not how to improve your tennis,
but how to improve your listening,
we've got a dedicatedcourse where you can come
and practice your listeningand speaking with others.
If you visitoscartrimboli.com/fundamentals,
you can register for the course.

(20:14):
I'd love to listen to you.
Email [e-mail]
with the subject line, body language
and in the body of your email
what will you do differentas a result of listening
to this episode?
Often I get emails from peoplewith just the subject line
and I immediately reply to them, well,

(20:36):
what will you do differently?
Because they've left a blankin the body of the email.
So that's [e-mail]
with the subject line body language.
What will you do different as a result
of listening to this episode?
Or more importantly,
what should I haveadded into this episode?
Or what would you have liked me
to have covered in this episode,

(20:58):
so that you could become more effective
in the second dimension at level two
listening to their content what you see.
I'm Oscar Trimboli
and along with the DeepListening Ambassador community,
we're on a quest to create100 million deep listeners
in the workplace, and you have given us

(21:20):
the greatest gift of all.
You've listened to us.Thanks for listening.
(serene violin music)
(violin music intensifies)