March 14, 2025 • 37 mins
This week on Discourse in Magic, we're bringing you a special repost of Jonah Babins' appearance on the Penguin Magic Podcast, hosted by Erik Tait.
The post Jonah Babins: Magic’s Business Whisperer appeared first on Discourse in Magic.
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Episode Transcript
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Jonah (00:09):
Hello my friends, and welcome to a brand new episode of Discourse in Magic.
My name is Jonah Bains, and this episodeis special because I was featured on the
Penguin Magic Podcast, invited by EricTate, who is a phenomenal interviewer,
and if you are one who listens tomany magic podcasts, which you might.
(00:30):
I still love you.
Uh, if you are, then you probablyhave seen this already on the
Penguin Magic Podcast, but ifyou haven't, I am attaching the
episode here for your enjoyment.
I'm gonna remind you at the end, but Iwas nominated, this is a crazy sentence.
I was nominated for Magic Podcaster towin a FM award, which is bonkers, and
(00:54):
the way to win the award is via voting.
So I'm gonna put the link.
In the description of this episode, ifyou take 30 seconds out of your life to
vote for discourse in magic, if you'veever enjoyed an episode of this podcast
here, then it would mean the world to me.
And by the way, I'll haveno idea if you did it.
(01:14):
So this is just me asking you,begging you, pleading you.
Please vote for me.
But other than that, enjoy this episodeall about how the podcast exists, how
I pick guests, and how the Mastermindworks, and how I help magicians hit six
figures and beyond A lovely episode.
You're gonna enjoy it.
Here it is, an episode with EricTate from the Penguin Magic Podcast.
(01:50):
Welcome to the Penguin Magic Podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Tate.
We have a great show for you this week.
I'm gonna dive straight into the mainevent I. Jonah Bains is one of the most
popular magic podcasters in the world.
His podcast Discourse in Magic hasbeen running for nine years, and he
has interviewed hundreds of the mostimportant magicians in the world lately.
He's turned his eye to theworld of business coaching.
He runs the Toronto Magic Company withhis business business partner, Ben
(02:11):
Train, and has built a very successfulcareer performing all over Canada Now.
He runs the Mastermind ofBusiness Development Community for
magicians that has seen revenuesrise across the workers of magic.
I wanted to find out more about thisLEAP group and where it came from.
I caught up with Jonah via Zoom andnow you get to join our conversation.
Jonah Bains, thanks so much for joiningme here on the Penguin Magic Podcast.
(02:33):
This has been a long time coming'cause uh, I think, don't you have
like the longest Running Magic podcast?
In,
I have to give that award to the magic word.
Um, who is Scott Wells?
Yeah.
Whose podcast has been going on,feels like since before I was born.
And he also puts out like multipleepisodes every week and it's,
(02:54):
it's really a fantastic show.
'cause he's doing likejournalism out there.
Like, he's like, here's day oneof this convention and day two.
So I have to give that award to him.
There were certainly lots thatexisted when I started, but.
I'm the only one who didn't give up.
You know, I haven't, I haven't given upyet for the, the length that it's been.
So Scott gets that award.
Yeah.
But, uh, I've certainlybeen at it for a while.
(03:15):
Di Magic, uh, magic Discourse.
Discourse in Magic has beenaround for a long time.
I know.
I've been on the show.
You've got an interesting way ofgetting guests you like, require.
Guests to connect you with other guests.
That's a, you know, it,it's a bold tactic's.
It's kind of a bit because, so, so anyways, just to explain the tactic,
at the end of every episode, everyguest is asked to recommend another
(03:35):
guest that would be a good fit for theshow and also that they can put us in
contact with, so they can't just belike David Blaine, um, even though.
It's awesome.
And I will say I havecertainly used that a lot.
Um, really, I just follow my interest,you know, like I, I really actually
don't chase all those threads down.
(03:55):
'cause if you can imagine, it ends upbeing like, if every guest really does
recommend another guest, then I, it'simpossible for me to select anyone.
And I just have this long list.
And what I learned is that I can't.
Interview people whose stuff Idon't know very well because it
makes for an awful interview.
(04:17):
So I've made that mistake a handfulof times and now when someone
recommends a person to me who like.
I don't really know that well.
I just politely thank them.
And then if the moment comes in the futurewhere I know who they are or learn it,
whatever, I will chase down that lead.
But for the most part, I followmy interests and people message me
(04:39):
all the time asking to be on it.
And like literally the thing that,the size they could be on it is
how familiar with their stuff I am.
And you know, if, if there's stuffthat I love and if I'm not, then it's
like maybe in the future when you like.
You know, enter my sphere ofstuff that I'm like interested in.
But um, yeah, so it's kind of a bit,I, I, I mean I don't really follow all
(05:00):
of those chains down, but certainlyit's helped me a couple times.
You are a great interviewer though.
You ask some fascinating questionsand I think it is precisely because
of what you just said, is that youonly have on people whose stuff
you are aware of, which I think is.
It's, I don't think that peoplewho listened to podcasts realize
(05:20):
how hard it is to interviewsomeone whose stuff you don't know.
It's brutal.
Yeah.
It's brutal to interview people whosestuff you don't know and they end up.
It just, you end up both you giving shortquestions and them giving short answers.
And like my hack for being a goodinterview is kind of embarrassing,
(05:40):
which is like, I'm just reallycurious and I just ask them what I'm
curious about and I try to lower.
The level of my question to bemore broadly applicable, like, I'll
just tell a weird story, which is,um, when I interviewed Tamari, so
I, I called in every favor thatI could, uh, to interview him.
(06:04):
I got a green light to flyto Madrid to interview him.
And this was a couple, it wasactually right in the tail end of
the magic Rainbow coming out becauseI attended a Magic Rainbow show
slash party, um, there in Madrid.
I had this interesting challengewith the interview, which was
like, I am obsessed with his stuff.
(06:24):
I've read everything andI, I, I eat it all up.
I had this interesting challenge, whichis like if I ask him questions about
the philosophies and writings in those.
Giant, incredible books.
Then I'm presupposing that thethousands of listeners have read
those books, which I know that theyhaven't, especially the Magic Rainbow.
(06:47):
Um, or do I basically give him.
Underhand pitches to get him to say theexact same thing that he said in the book.
Again, for the listeners who don't readthese magic books and to give them an
opportunity to get into that theory.
So I kind of towed the line a littlebit in the interview, and there was
(07:10):
a couple times, and I don't know ifit made the final edit, but there's
a couple times where I was like,I gave him this underhand of like,
can you explain this thing to me?
And he was like.
Explain it.
I wrote it in great detail in the book.
I'm like, no, I know that you wroteit in the book, but I'm trying to
like, you know, pass it on to them.
So sometimes I, I can't, uh, sometimesI have a unique challenge like that,
(07:32):
but a lot of the times I just do mybest to follow my interest and I try to.
You know, ask questions that are a littlebit more applicable to more than just
me, but like, honestly, I interviewpeople for my pleasure and my info.
And you know, for me, and I wouldsay about 60% of the questions that
I'm asking are like, 'cause I'mcurious and 'cause I want to know
(07:53):
it's, uh, hosting a podcastfor a long period of time,
you do start to find that you.
You are, you are deeply fascinated bycertain things, and I almost wonder
if our audiences realize that they'veself-selected into our own deep
interests because you, you have to,you have to keep your own interest
(08:18):
level up in the podcast in order tokeep doing it for as long as you have.
Yeah, I mean, you know what happened to me is, you know, when
it originally started, I started itwith a magician named Tyler Williams,
who is no longer a magician anymore,but still a great friend of mine.
And when we started it, it was likeall about the theory and philosophy
(08:39):
of magic, which is how we arrivedat the name Discourse in Magic,
which like now I kind of regret.
Because I mean like it's fine.
People know it, it's a brand, butlike I kind of regret it 'cause that
makes it feel like it's about theruminations about magic, which is like,
so not where I have headed in my magiclife and magic career now I'm like.
(09:00):
Uber practical.
Like all I want to know about is thebusiness, the story, how you make your act
really good, how you come up with stuff.
Like, that's like the stuffthat really tickles me.
So over the course of the years,I mean it started in 2016, so
however long that is, nine years.
Holy gosh.
Um, that's crazy.
In my head I was likesix years, but it's nine.
(09:22):
Um, you know, since then my interestshave changed and I. Assume as the
numbers and the email subscribers showthat so has, you know, the people that
used to listen to it for philosophicalruminations on magic are kind of
like, Hey, you know, you're asking alot of questions about the business
(09:42):
and making money and stuff like that.
And like, I just do this for fun andbuy cool products when they come out and
they're probably not listening anymore.
And then the people that are.
Really practical.
Like now I get a lot of emails frompeople being like, I listened to this
in the green room before I go on stage.
Just 'cause it gives me somethingfun and interesting and it's
always about performing andcareer and, and stuff like that.
(10:03):
So as my interests have changed, so hasthe audience, but I'm like, I'm pumped.
Like, you know, for me the podcast islike, I, I do the coaching, which we'll
talk about in a second, but like, yeah.
The podcast is just mylike, fun little thing.
It's not even how most people findme, you know, for the coaching.
So like, I don't really, honestly, Ilog in every like six months to look at
(10:25):
numbers and just go like, huh, I guessthat's how many people listen to it.
And like, otherwise, I, I reallydon't even think about it.
It's honestly purely for me andlike, hopefully what I'm about to
say doesn't convince a bunch ofpeople to start a podcast, although
they're more than welcome to.
But, uh, it's just allowed me to.
Get closer access to thepeople that I want to.
(10:45):
And like, you know, when you're at a magicconvention like you are like, oh my God,
there's that guy, like if I interviewedhim like six months ago, it just makes
that a lot easier and, and makes me alot more comfortable chatting and jamming
and hanging out with those people.
So it's, it's kind of for me, likeit helps and, and I'm, I, I like
to share cool stuff, but for theinterviews I just chase who I'm most
interested in and, and interview them,
(11:07):
you know, it's, uh.
I gotta say, uh, it's refreshing tohear someone say basically the same
thing that goes through my head all thetime where I'm like, man, I'd love to
be better friends with R Paul Wilson.
I know how I'll become better friendswith while I'm on the podcast.
Well, I assume you don't have a giant five foot penguin breathing
(11:29):
down your throat telling you, uh,uh, you know, puppeteering it.
I'm, I, I have a feeling that you arechoosing more or less who you want to have
on the show unless there's a big releaseor a project or something like that.
So, uh, it's probably pretty similar.
Yeah, no, it, it is very similar.
And also, it's not a five foot penguin.
It's a 10 foot penguin.
He's, he's a mo he's an absolute monster.
(11:49):
Let's, that's what I, let'stalk about the coaching, because
you so at Magi Fest this year.
Uh, your booth was like right next tomine, and I watched you sit down with
person, after person, after person.
First of all, what, what is the coaching?
And then, yeah, so, and then let'stalk about how you got into it.
Yep.
So I help magicians grow the business, um,by just giving a really quick overview.
(12:13):
I have two sort ofversions of that that I do.
One is called the Gigs Program,which I just help magicians get gigs.
It's more about like your first few gigs.
Those are for, you know, cool cats.
Do an under 20 5K year trying tolike, just get the basics sorted,
like how to price, how to get leads,how to make our website, how to do
a sales call, like just the basics.
(12:33):
And then.
The other thing I run is the Mastermind,which is basically helping magicians
go from the 25, 35 50 K year to likea hundred, 1 50, 200, 2 50, so on.
And you know, in any sort of likesystem here, my math background's
gonna go bonkers right now, but inany system there are these natural,
(12:55):
um, plateaus that people hit.
And there's a plateauthat happens around like.
10 or 15 K where like you just kind ofstart doing it and you, you're like,
some people call me, I call 500 bucks.
I book a few, I don't know what to do.
That's like sort of one plateau.
And then the other one happensaround like 50 or 60 where you
(13:16):
kind of have some things goingbut you haven't explored more.
You probably need to raise your prices,make your pro better, things like that.
And then there's another plateauaround the like a hundred or 150
KA year mark where you are justso damn busy that you cannot.
Map out the time to scale and doany of the scaling things like
hiring people and using the rightsoftwares and, and uh, leaning into
(13:37):
other lead generating strategies.
So I help magicians with the business.
The, the overview, I guess megiving an overview of the Mastermind
is kind of like the best way.
'cause it like touches onall the things, which is.
There's three parts of a magic businessof any business, but of a magic business,
which is leads, like how you get thepeople in the door, uh, sales, how you
(13:59):
convert those people to, uh, hire you, andthen systems all of the like operations
and behind the scenes of how you do it.
I'm gonna take an extra minute to breakthose down again into like three each.
So leads is inbound.
People inquiring from you.
That's ads.
SEO, word of mouth, gigsites, things like that.
Outbound, you reaching out to thepeople that you wanna do gigs for,
(14:23):
that's cold calls, cold emails,um, cold dms, things like that.
And then past client relationships.
So everyone who's ever booked you,everyone who's ever almost booked you,
and then all your peers and friendsand people like that, sales kind of
breaks down into three parts, which iswhat we call rockstar promo material.
So just making your stuff.
Jump off the page pricing andpackaging, how you offer your stuff
(14:43):
so that you can, you know, make moremoney and, and uh, do do more gigs.
And then the sales process.
So everything from the inquiry tothe sales call to the follow-ups,
to the post event, all that stuff.
And then systems is, um, hiring, sogetting the right people, whether
it's a full-time assistant or likesomeone to design your website so it
doesn't look like you designed it.
Um, there's the actual liketech, so sometimes that is.
(15:08):
Software, CRM, anything that you're usingto operate the business in the background.
And then work-life balance, which islike, we wanna make sure that your
magic business doesn't devolve into youworking eight hours at a computer and
then three hours at night every night.
'cause then it sucks.
You're sort of running two businesses.
So those are all of theregions that we work on.
(15:29):
I'm happy to give you more details abouthow like the mastermind itself works.
Yeah.
But, um, those are thestuff that we work on.
Yeah.
So how.
I wanna come back towhat, how you work on it.
How did you get into it?
Because if you, I mean there, there's, Iwanna, I wanna say this without sounding,
(15:50):
uh, terrible and insulting 'cause Iam deeply fascinated by this 'cause.
If you are, if you are successful inrunning your business, focusing on running
your business would make you more money.
But helping other people isalso a great way to make money.
And so I'm just like, you know, andyou're, I know candidly what you are
(16:11):
doing in the background and that you area very successful up there in Toronto.
And so how did you sort of transitioninto this, this coaching element?
So
I'll tell
you
two, two stories.
The first is the story of howthis specifically started,
and then the second is.
The one that probably is gonna makeme seem much more cleverer than I am.
(16:33):
So, you know, the story of how thisspecifically started is, you know,
over the course of the lifetime of thepodcast, I have sold different things.
I have sold couple of things that sortof resembled this, a course a coaching.
I sold a book, I sold a um, a t-shirt.
There's like 40 magicians inthe planet that have, that
(16:54):
sometimes have a convention.
I just laugh.
Um, and hug them too.
Uh, so I've sold sort ofa random array of stuff.
And then the pandemic was a really funnytime because everyone was all over the
map and Ben and I here in Canada, we hadsort of the opportunity, you know, I.
I remember the day Ben came to me andhe's like, the government is gonna
(17:15):
pay us to not work, so let's not work.
You know, the way it worked forthe Canadian government was like,
if you're making over a certainamount, then they don't pay you.
But if you're, if your like revenuedisappeared, then they'll pay you.
So he was like, bro, let's take atwo month vacation whenever it was.
And I was like, you know what?
I have a feeling that's whateveryone's gonna do, and I'm
(17:37):
gonna be bored outta my mind.
So why don't we do theopposite and why don't we like.
Go hard and just like do everything.
So we ended up doing somuch in the pandemic.
We did.
I mean, I don't know, but I can tellyou probably the most virtual show
of any Canadian virtual performer.
If not top five, top 10, whatever.
Um, we did our five virtual magicconventions, those eight bit magic
(18:02):
conventions, unconventional, fun.
And during that time, I've been a hugeadvocate always in my life of just like.
Teach what, you know, what'ssort of how the podcast has been.
I've just taught all the thingsI learned and in that time we
were one of the magicians thatwere on the forefront of virtual.
So I started running differentsessions for, uh, um, the discourse
(18:28):
and magic audience through thenewsletter and the Instagram, whatever.
For virtual, everything from likehow to use ECA M Live and how to
set up the space and how to do thesound to like how to book a gig in
virtual and how much to charge andwhat to put in the act and whatever.
And over that time it just escalatedand escalated and people were
asking me like, can you help?
(18:48):
Like, you know, will you work with me?
Like, will you help me grow the business?
Will you help me with the showand you help me with that?
So that's kind of how it started.
And then I was wakingup in the morning doing.
10 straight hours of 30 minuteback-to-back calls and then going
to sleep and doing that again.
And that was stupid.
And it was stupid.
Not only for me 'cause I couldn't breathe,um, and couldn't run the Toronto Magic
(19:10):
Company, but it was also dumb because.
By like day five, I would've hadthe same conversation nine times.
And I'm like, wouldn't it be smarterif we put all these people doing
the exact same thing all in one roomtogether and taught them the thing?
Or on top of that, wouldn't it besmarter if I recorded this lesson so that
when someone says, how do you do this?
(19:31):
I don't have to get on another call,and it like, why don't I do it once?
Awesome.
Make the worksheets, make thetemplates, make the everything so
people can copy and paste, and that way.
People can do it and then ask mefor advice on it instead of asking
for advice about how to do it.
Like, it's like hiring someoneto help you with your show.
There's nothing worse than you hiresomeone and they tell you a bunch
of advice that you already know andyou're like, I should have implemented
(19:53):
this advice first and then paidyou money to consult on my show.
The other way around is likesuch a waste for us both.
'cause you're telling me stuffI know and I paid money for
someone to tell me stuff I know.
So that was how it started.
That's the like.
Real.
That's like the real answerof how this came to be.
Mm-hmm.
The like answer that'sgonna make me sound.
5% smarter than I am, which I'm probablynot, is that when I started the podcast
(20:18):
in 2016, I was learning in the world ofonline business and entrepreneurship and
whatever, and I had the thesis that I.
If I had an audience at somepoint, I don't know what it is, I
will have something to sell them.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I don't know what it is, but a lot of dollars are
exchanged in the magic business.
(20:38):
It could be clothing, it could beaffiliates for tricks, it could be.
My own tra I didn't know what it was, so Ikind of just put my head down and built a
podcast and for a really long time, whichit still might be by the way, 'cause a lot
of people ask about this, but I thought itwas gonna be a beautiful, um, uh, coffee
(20:59):
table book with the top interviews withtheir like lessons and things like that.
A bitch to produce, obviously, you know?
Yeah.
So, um, haven't done that yet.
Uh, but it sort of ended up beingthe coaching, you know, the coaching
ended up being the thing where Ishared what I did and as Ben and I
had successes, I do the business partof our company as well as some of the
(21:22):
shows, but as Ben and I had successes,I would just turn around and teach it.
And when we had failures,I'd be like, don't do this.
Or like, if anybody has a differentway of doing this, like, great,
but don't do it the way that Idid it 'cause it didn't work so.
That's kind of how it came to be.
The magic of our stuff working out inCovid because we were going so hard
and me teaching it plus the kind ofthing in the background of being like.
(21:45):
At some point, maybe I'll havesomething to sell to an audience,
but like, I don't know what it is.
And like I said, ended up not beingt-shirts 'cause all the money went to the
t-shirt company and it was just impossibleand it didn't end up being eBooks and it
didn't end up be like, so there's a lotof things that it didn't end up being,
um, that I tried over the, from 2016 to.
(22:07):
Mid to late 2020.
Um, but coaching ended up being thething that, that people really need.
Well, I, I've got a lot of friends whoare in the Mastermind program and they
speak pretty highly of it, and I've seenthem definitely growing their business.
On one hand, it, it doesseem a little bit like.
You know, if you, if you pay forthis, you are incentivized to actually
(22:31):
like, implement the things you learn.
And so it's, it's a great way tosort of hold yourself accountable.
Uh, but on the, on the other hand,like, sounds like they're learning
like really important stuff.
I mean, what are, what are somebasic mistakes that you see a lot
of people making when they're tryingto build their magic business?
Yeah, I wanna comment on that first thing first, because
(22:52):
you're a hundred percent right.
You know, like a lot of the timespeople are, uh, afraid to be
serious about what they're doing.
And one of the guys, Kelvin, who, uh,lives in Vancouver, great magician
and he joined the mastermind.
I think he's okay with me sharing numbers.
But anyways, he went from basically50 K to 250 K in three years inside
(23:12):
of the Mastermind, which is insane.
Like that's life changing differencein your yearly revenue and it's
'cause he implemented all the stuff.
So I hired him as a coach in theMastermind so people get help from
me as well as him, as well as ourGoogle ads guy, as well as a guy
named Jeff and a bunch of cool things.
But he said somethingwhich I thought was so.
(23:33):
Clever, which is, you know, I chat with alot of people to join the mastermind and
I walked 'em through what it is and howit works and the pricing and all that.
And there's guarantees so that peoplearen't in the hole as they didn't like
paying for a gym membership and not going,so like we don't quite work like that, but
handful of people are like, you know what?
You know, I don't think that it'sfor me, and it's fear, right?
(23:54):
It's fear about spending a bunch of money.
It's fear about investing in yourself anddoubting that it's gonna work, not just.
I work, I got enough proof that I thatlike they're like faith in their own self.
And Kelvin said something amazing to me,which is like the same people that are
afraid to join the Mastermind are the samepeople that are afraid to try new stuff.
(24:17):
In their business, like how longhave you been thinking about running
Google Ads but never done it?
Or how long has it been a good ideato make content but you didn't do it?
Or how long have you been thinking abouthiring a more expensive videographer
to get a good, like all of the stuffthat the same people that have been
ruminating about the thought of doingthat, but never pulled the trigger
are the same people that don'tpull the trigger to join us with.
(24:41):
All the guarantees in theworld to make it work.
They're like afraid to do it.
So like what you're saying is right,not just in the sense that yes, there's
information and help and supportingguarantees and all that stuff, but
yeah, like a lot of the times it's justsomeone being like, bro, you're here.
So like, it's like,Hey, you should run ads.
Great.
Now I'm part of the mastermind.
What should I do?
(25:01):
It's like, great.
Now that you're paying to be a partof this, now you should run ads.
You know?
And we have all the systemsand stuff, but like.
Now do it.
You know, like, so a lot of that is true.
But the other thing that'sso interesting is that.
It really helps us, like the Mastermindisn't just me helping people.
It's a community and it's pretty coolthat it helps me self-select, kinda like
(25:23):
what we're talking about for the podcast.
Mm-hmm.
For the people that do stuff, likethe people that will try things, um.
They're the ones who are there.
They're the ones who are in it.
'cause they're willing to be like,I guess you guaranteed my result.
You have unlimited testimonials ofpeople, multiple people I know are in it.
Like, yeah, I think, Ithink I can give it a go.
And those are the same people who werelike, okay, you're gonna do cold email.
(25:46):
Here's the template.
Here's people that are doing it.
Here's their results.
Here's how to set it up.
Go and do it.
And they don't hem and haw foreight months about doing it.
They just go, okay, I see the data.
Looks like it works.
I trust you.
Let's do it.
So just wanted to comment on that first,because I think it's such an interesting,
uh, situation where it's kind of like.
(26:09):
It's closer to hiring a personaltrainer than it is a gym membership.
'cause you cannot go to the gym,but the personal trainer's knocking
at your door and ideally teachingyou things about how to grow your
muscles or lose weight or whatever.
It's that you're doingmore than you would've
known.
By the way, everything that you just said.
Absolutely applies to alot of your magic world.
Like the people who are going,man, how do you create a trick?
(26:30):
Well, I don't know.
I screw around with magic stuff.
And eventually, of course,like something happens, right?
Like if you just sit and think aboutcreating a trick or sit and think about,
you know, coming up with, uh, something,it's different than actually like getting
the cards out, playing around with it,doing your research and then doing it.
You're, you're talking, you're,I mean, this is, this is not
rocket science, but it is.
(26:53):
It, it is the truth.
You're, you're a hundred percent right.
Just to go on a funny little tangent, to talk about
the podcast for a second is like.
How many more people can I interviewabout creativity and ask them about how
to be creative and get the same goddamnanswer of like, well, I have a workshop,
and in that workshop I build stuff.
(27:13):
Or, well, I play with tricks and Ishow it to people and I keep playing,
and then this is what I end up with.
Or like, it's the same thing.
And now I'm, I'm kind of like afraidto ask people about creativity because.
What the hell else are they gonna say?
Like, you know, there's no one's gotlike a fountain of youth that they're
drinking from to get all their good ideas.
Like, this is how you be creative.
(27:34):
You have to play like you haveto, you have to do the stuff.
So it's the same thing.
Same thing for business.
You do have to do the stuff touncover new things that work.
Uh, so we're.
Where are you?
What, what actually, like whatdoes it look like when you're
inside the Mastermind program?
Like what's a, what's an averagemeeting of this community like?
(27:56):
Yep.
So there's a couple piecesthat sort of make it possible.
There's like the plan,the tools and the help.
So first the plan, um, whenI get started working with
someone, we basically do a, uh.
You know, top down, look at their businessand we make a plan for like what are the
major projects they need to work on, makesure they know how to get help doing that.
(28:17):
And then also four times a year, allthe members of the mastermind all get
together and plan out the next 90 days.
'cause as you can imagine, waiting to doin January or February, March, waiting
to do in October, November, Decemberare two completely different things.
So we make sure that people are workingon the right stuff at the right time.
One of those meetings, bythe way, happens in Mexico.
All inclusive, super fun, rad, rad event.
And then three of those are.
(28:38):
Online, like multi-day, sort of like,um, magic conventions, but online.
So that's the plan.
The tools is how we make sureeveryone knows how to do the stuff.
So there's a content bank with.
Videos and worksheets and templatesand over the shoulders of all of the
stuff that we teach, all of those,I told you about the lead sales
(29:00):
systems and all, all of that stuff.
There's videos and tools and templatesand over the shoulders about how to do
all of that plus way, way, way more.
Um, there's something we do calledthe 10 K Mastermind, which is.
Members of the mastermind teachingstuff that gets recorded and goes in the
content bank that's worth at least 10K in your business if you do it, like
there's someone who's made like over150 k doing just SEO and there's someone
(29:23):
who makes like 10 K every quarter doinglike workshops, after school workshops
with kids and, and on and on and on.
So we got those, and thenwe've got live workshops.
So there's four.
Workshops a month on differentsubjects that people can attend live.
And sometimes it's me, sometimesit's a guest, sometimes it's a
mastermind member teaching something.
(29:44):
That stuff goes in the content bank.
We got my Google Ads guy whodoes, who's responsible for.
You know, crushing our ads, who doesa weekly session that people can log
in and get their ads looked at, andthose get recorded in the content bank.
So there's a lot of content.
So stuff to do.
And again, we tell people, don't binge it.
'cause if it was about informationand not implementation, we'd all
(30:04):
be billionaires with six pack ads.
So instead of binging it,take the plan we gave you.
Go work on that stuff,get it done, get our.
Feedback and then moveon to the next project.
So we talked about the plan, we talkedabout the tools, and then the help.
So a couple ways to get help.
There's a weekly win, the week callevery Monday, um, where everyone
shows up and we say, Hey, what'dyou say we're gonna do last week?
(30:25):
What'd you actually do last week?
And then problem solving.
So people bring up any stocks and myselfand other people are there to, to help.
There is a private Facebook group.
Which is not a Facebook groupabout people arguing about, uh,
new magic releases and crediting.
Uh, that's not our, uh,that's not our vibe.
It's just mastermind members, youknow, people doing 50, a hundred,
1 50, 200 KA year, all there tohelp each other and problem solve.
(30:48):
Um.
There is Kelvin, who I told youabout already, who is a coach
as well in the Mastermind now.
So if people need his help, thenthey send him a message and he
schedules a one-on-one to do whatever.
Like some people are like, Hey,I'm setting up this, you know,
landing page for the first time.
Can you just look over my shoulderwhile I do it to make sure
like I'm doing nothing wrong?
Um, and then there's me, whichis what I call the red button.
(31:10):
Which is my personal WhatsApp number.
So if something goes horribly wrong inyour business or horribly right, uh, and
you need some help, send me a messageand we'll get it sorted within 24 hours.
So whether it's like another pandemicor someone wants to book you for a multi
show tour or whatever, you don't knowhow to price it, send me a message and we
get it sorted within the next 24 hours.
So.
There's a lot.
Um, but the whole point of it isthat, A, you always know what to do.
(31:32):
B you know how to get help whenit is that you're doing it.
And c, there's alwayssupport and people to.
Um, compare and people to seewhat they're doing and see
what they're, what's going on.
And we get some crazy data'cause we got like 45 magicians.
We know what busy months of the year are.
We know what's we're, we can tellyou when to go on your vacation.
(31:54):
Like on average, if you're planningyour vacation a few months in
advance, we're gonna be like, you'reprobably not a, gonna book a gig.
You know, in February.
That's the worst month across the board.
So like.
Book your vacation, then, you know, don'tbook it in in October, November, December.
So an average week, just to say onemore thing about it, an average week is.
People come to the win the week calls,they post any questions or stocks or
(32:17):
problems or anything in the Facebookgroup, they come to the session or not
about whatever it is we're working on.
It could be us doing sales call trainingsand doing dummy calls so they can
learn, or it could be me teaching anew system of LinkedIn ads or whatever.
Um, and then if they're currentlyrunning Google ads, they can come to
the Google Ads, call and get eyes froma. An expert on what it looks like.
(32:38):
And then once a quarter we all gettogether, see how they're doing on
the goals that they set and thatwe set, and then basically plan
new goals for the next quarter.
We're, uh, you know what, this is likereally fascinating stuff and it makes
me sort of go, well, I. If thingsever go south for me at Penguin, I,
I know the, the first, that Giant
10 Foot Penguin is, uh, is Browning right now.
(33:01):
Uh, no, this sounds fan.
Where can, where can listeners findout more about the Mastermind if
they, uh, if they want to sort ofjoin and hold themselves accountable?
So I'll give you an email address, which is magic@torontomagiccompany.com.
And then the other thingI'll just tell you is.
Discourse in magic, which is the nameof the podcast on Instagram, on the
(33:22):
website, whatever, like, come as a weirdsentence to say, but come sniff my butt.
Uh, like, like you're possibly hearingabout me for the first time on a podcast.
And you're like, what is this guy?
And, and you may not want from a randomemail to come and be a part like.
Sniff my butt.
I put out a lot of content.
You know, there's a lot of work.
Every couple months I do like a publicworkshop on something, you know,
I got videos, I got testimonials.
(33:44):
I got like, come sniff my butt.
Listen to the podcast.
Go listen to the business onlyepisodes that I run about this or that.
And, uh, if you like it, then.
Send me a message and ifyou hate it, then cool.
It's free anyways, so if you directly wantto know magic@torontomagiccompany.com.
But my advice is just go follow me on,I would say your favorite platform.
(34:05):
It's basically Instagram,Facebook, whatever.
Follow me there, sniff my butt,listen to the podcast and uh,
and then send me a message.
And that's what that.
Like strategy call that we do is firstis you sniff my butt, I sniff your butt.
Um, and we both sort of figureout if, 'cause like what's so
weird is that the product orthe mastermind is the community.
(34:26):
Mm-hmm.
The product is the people.
So if someone shits in the pool, noone wants to be in the pool anymore.
Um, so I have to be picky aboutwho is invited to be a part of it.
So aside from there beingrevenue minimums mm-hmm.
There's also like, you know, acouple other things that I do both.
Um, like technical things to make surethat someone's a good fit, like revenue,
(34:47):
uh, uh, dollars or, or other aspectsthat they need to have in their business,
as well as like emotional things.
Like if I wouldn't have invite thisperson to my house for dinner, um,
as like a bare minimum, then like,I don't want them in the community.
I'm gonna be talking to them everyweek for like a year, you know?
Yeah.
Like, so I, I don't wantthem in the community.
So, um, you know, it's the, the.
(35:09):
Uh, application processes, both a chancefor you to learn more about us and
us learn more about you and all that.
Jonah, uh, thanks so much for spendingsome time with me talking on the podcast
and, uh, and I, I can't wait to actuallygo catch up on my Discourse and magic
podcast 'cause I listen all the time.
Yeah, man.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on.
Um, this is awesome.
I love it.
(35:29):
We're like, uh.
Uh, podcast cousins, you know, outthere in the, out there in the universe.
Every year when people sharetheir Spotify rap, it's like you
and me neck and neck up there.
Um, I'm having fun.
So, uh, such a blast.
Much, uh, much appreciated.
And um, yeah man, let's do somefun stuff and if anyone needs
anything as questions, anything likethat, you know, send me a message
(35:50):
that's gonna do it for this week.
Kids.
Thanks so much to Jonah for being on theshow and thanks to you for listening.
I dunno about you, but improvingmy magic business sounds.
Pretty appealing.
You might just look a littlebit more into this group.
Well, as you are listening to this, thefinal Winter Carnival of Magic is getting
into full swing, and then on Sunday I hopon a plane for Las Vegas where I'll see
you all at the Mystify Magic Convention.
(36:11):
Seems like convention season comesearlier and earlier every year.
I can't wait to see all thePenguin fans at Mystify.
Be sure to stop by the booth and also hangout with me in some of the late night.
Sessions, I'm sure we can teacheach other some cool stuff.
As always, we're a weekly podcast, sobe sure to like and subscribe as we'll.
Share your favorite episodes on thesocial media platform that you've
been looking for a convention info on.
(36:32):
If you wanted to reach out to meabout anything on this week's show,
you're gonna have to send me anote written in code on the back
of the Declaration of Independence.
I'm about to spend a lot of time onplanes and given how often they seem to
be falling outta the sky these days, I'mgonna go down watching National Treasury.
It's seriously one of the best movies, so.
Good, but if stealing the Declarationof Independence isn't your cup
of tea, you can always hit meup on Instagram at Eric Tate.
(36:55):
That's at E-R-I-K-T-A-I-T fromme and everyone here at the P
three Magic Studios Practice.
Practice, perform.
(37:15):
Well, there you have it.
I hope you liked the episode and I hopeof course that you learn something.
Uh, I think I mentioned sniffing buttsa couple too many times in this episode.
So please, if you meet me ata magic convention, do not.
Sniff my, but however, if you do want todo something good for me, that has nothing
to do with my, but please vote for me, uh,to win the FM award for Magic podcaster.
(37:39):
I'm very excited that I wasnominated and now I get to spread
the word to get some votes.
I put the link in thedescription of this episode.
Thanks so much for being here.
Hope you learned and liked something,and I'll see you next Thursday.
Hello my friends, and welcome to a brand new episode of Discourse in Magic.
My name is Jonah Bains, and this episodeis special because I was featured on the
Penguin Magic Podcast, invited by EricTate, who is a phenomenal interviewer,
and if you are one who listens tomany magic podcasts, which you might.
(00:30):
I still love you.
Uh, if you are, then you probablyhave seen this already on the
Penguin Magic Podcast, but ifyou haven't, I am attaching the
episode here for your enjoyment.
I'm gonna remind you at the end, but Iwas nominated, this is a crazy sentence.
I was nominated for Magic Podcaster towin a FM award, which is bonkers, and
(00:54):
the way to win the award is via voting.
So I'm gonna put the link.
In the description of this episode, ifyou take 30 seconds out of your life to
vote for discourse in magic, if you'veever enjoyed an episode of this podcast
here, then it would mean the world to me.
And by the way, I'll haveno idea if you did it.
(01:14):
So this is just me asking you,begging you, pleading you.
Please vote for me.
But other than that, enjoy this episodeall about how the podcast exists, how
I pick guests, and how the Mastermindworks, and how I help magicians hit six
figures and beyond A lovely episode.
You're gonna enjoy it.
Here it is, an episode with EricTate from the Penguin Magic Podcast.
(01:50):
Welcome to the Penguin Magic Podcast.
I'm your host, Eric Tate.
We have a great show for you this week.
I'm gonna dive straight into the mainevent I. Jonah Bains is one of the most
popular magic podcasters in the world.
His podcast Discourse in Magic hasbeen running for nine years, and he
has interviewed hundreds of the mostimportant magicians in the world lately.
He's turned his eye to theworld of business coaching.
He runs the Toronto Magic Company withhis business business partner, Ben
(02:11):
Train, and has built a very successfulcareer performing all over Canada Now.
He runs the Mastermind ofBusiness Development Community for
magicians that has seen revenuesrise across the workers of magic.
I wanted to find out more about thisLEAP group and where it came from.
I caught up with Jonah via Zoom andnow you get to join our conversation.
Jonah Bains, thanks so much for joiningme here on the Penguin Magic Podcast.
(02:33):
This has been a long time coming'cause uh, I think, don't you have
like the longest Running Magic podcast?
In,
I have to give that award to the magic word.
Um, who is Scott Wells?
Yeah.
Whose podcast has been going on,feels like since before I was born.
And he also puts out like multipleepisodes every week and it's,
(02:54):
it's really a fantastic show.
'cause he's doing likejournalism out there.
Like, he's like, here's day oneof this convention and day two.
So I have to give that award to him.
There were certainly lots thatexisted when I started, but.
I'm the only one who didn't give up.
You know, I haven't, I haven't given upyet for the, the length that it's been.
So Scott gets that award.
Yeah.
But, uh, I've certainlybeen at it for a while.
(03:15):
Di Magic, uh, magic Discourse.
Discourse in Magic has beenaround for a long time.
I know.
I've been on the show.
You've got an interesting way ofgetting guests you like, require.
Guests to connect you with other guests.
That's a, you know, it,it's a bold tactic's.
It's kind of a bit because, so, so anyways, just to explain the tactic,
at the end of every episode, everyguest is asked to recommend another
(03:35):
guest that would be a good fit for theshow and also that they can put us in
contact with, so they can't just belike David Blaine, um, even though.
It's awesome.
And I will say I havecertainly used that a lot.
Um, really, I just follow my interest,you know, like I, I really actually
don't chase all those threads down.
(03:55):
'cause if you can imagine, it ends upbeing like, if every guest really does
recommend another guest, then I, it'simpossible for me to select anyone.
And I just have this long list.
And what I learned is that I can't.
Interview people whose stuff Idon't know very well because it
makes for an awful interview.
(04:17):
So I've made that mistake a handfulof times and now when someone
recommends a person to me who like.
I don't really know that well.
I just politely thank them.
And then if the moment comes in the futurewhere I know who they are or learn it,
whatever, I will chase down that lead.
But for the most part, I followmy interests and people message me
(04:39):
all the time asking to be on it.
And like literally the thing that,the size they could be on it is
how familiar with their stuff I am.
And you know, if, if there's stuffthat I love and if I'm not, then it's
like maybe in the future when you like.
You know, enter my sphere ofstuff that I'm like interested in.
But um, yeah, so it's kind of a bit,I, I, I mean I don't really follow all
(05:00):
of those chains down, but certainlyit's helped me a couple times.
You are a great interviewer though.
You ask some fascinating questionsand I think it is precisely because
of what you just said, is that youonly have on people whose stuff
you are aware of, which I think is.
It's, I don't think that peoplewho listened to podcasts realize
(05:20):
how hard it is to interviewsomeone whose stuff you don't know.
It's brutal.
Yeah.
It's brutal to interview people whosestuff you don't know and they end up.
It just, you end up both you giving shortquestions and them giving short answers.
And like my hack for being a goodinterview is kind of embarrassing,
(05:40):
which is like, I'm just reallycurious and I just ask them what I'm
curious about and I try to lower.
The level of my question to bemore broadly applicable, like, I'll
just tell a weird story, which is,um, when I interviewed Tamari, so
I, I called in every favor thatI could, uh, to interview him.
(06:04):
I got a green light to flyto Madrid to interview him.
And this was a couple, it wasactually right in the tail end of
the magic Rainbow coming out becauseI attended a Magic Rainbow show
slash party, um, there in Madrid.
I had this interesting challengewith the interview, which was
like, I am obsessed with his stuff.
(06:24):
I've read everything andI, I, I eat it all up.
I had this interesting challenge, whichis like if I ask him questions about
the philosophies and writings in those.
Giant, incredible books.
Then I'm presupposing that thethousands of listeners have read
those books, which I know that theyhaven't, especially the Magic Rainbow.
(06:47):
Um, or do I basically give him.
Underhand pitches to get him to say theexact same thing that he said in the book.
Again, for the listeners who don't readthese magic books and to give them an
opportunity to get into that theory.
So I kind of towed the line a littlebit in the interview, and there was
(07:10):
a couple times, and I don't know ifit made the final edit, but there's
a couple times where I was like,I gave him this underhand of like,
can you explain this thing to me?
And he was like.
Explain it.
I wrote it in great detail in the book.
I'm like, no, I know that you wroteit in the book, but I'm trying to
like, you know, pass it on to them.
So sometimes I, I can't, uh, sometimesI have a unique challenge like that,
(07:32):
but a lot of the times I just do mybest to follow my interest and I try to.
You know, ask questions that are a littlebit more applicable to more than just
me, but like, honestly, I interviewpeople for my pleasure and my info.
And you know, for me, and I wouldsay about 60% of the questions that
I'm asking are like, 'cause I'mcurious and 'cause I want to know
(07:53):
it's, uh, hosting a podcastfor a long period of time,
you do start to find that you.
You are, you are deeply fascinated bycertain things, and I almost wonder
if our audiences realize that they'veself-selected into our own deep
interests because you, you have to,you have to keep your own interest
(08:18):
level up in the podcast in order tokeep doing it for as long as you have.
Yeah, I mean, you know what happened to me is, you know, when
it originally started, I started itwith a magician named Tyler Williams,
who is no longer a magician anymore,but still a great friend of mine.
And when we started it, it was likeall about the theory and philosophy
(08:39):
of magic, which is how we arrivedat the name Discourse in Magic,
which like now I kind of regret.
Because I mean like it's fine.
People know it, it's a brand, butlike I kind of regret it 'cause that
makes it feel like it's about theruminations about magic, which is like,
so not where I have headed in my magiclife and magic career now I'm like.
(09:00):
Uber practical.
Like all I want to know about is thebusiness, the story, how you make your act
really good, how you come up with stuff.
Like, that's like the stuffthat really tickles me.
So over the course of the years,I mean it started in 2016, so
however long that is, nine years.
Holy gosh.
Um, that's crazy.
In my head I was likesix years, but it's nine.
(09:22):
Um, you know, since then my interestshave changed and I. Assume as the
numbers and the email subscribers showthat so has, you know, the people that
used to listen to it for philosophicalruminations on magic are kind of
like, Hey, you know, you're asking alot of questions about the business
(09:42):
and making money and stuff like that.
And like, I just do this for fun andbuy cool products when they come out and
they're probably not listening anymore.
And then the people that are.
Really practical.
Like now I get a lot of emails frompeople being like, I listened to this
in the green room before I go on stage.
Just 'cause it gives me somethingfun and interesting and it's
always about performing andcareer and, and stuff like that.
(10:03):
So as my interests have changed, so hasthe audience, but I'm like, I'm pumped.
Like, you know, for me the podcast islike, I, I do the coaching, which we'll
talk about in a second, but like, yeah.
The podcast is just mylike, fun little thing.
It's not even how most people findme, you know, for the coaching.
So like, I don't really, honestly, Ilog in every like six months to look at
(10:25):
numbers and just go like, huh, I guessthat's how many people listen to it.
And like, otherwise, I, I reallydon't even think about it.
It's honestly purely for me andlike, hopefully what I'm about to
say doesn't convince a bunch ofpeople to start a podcast, although
they're more than welcome to.
But, uh, it's just allowed me to.
Get closer access to thepeople that I want to.
(10:45):
And like, you know, when you're at a magicconvention like you are like, oh my God,
there's that guy, like if I interviewedhim like six months ago, it just makes
that a lot easier and, and makes me alot more comfortable chatting and jamming
and hanging out with those people.
So it's, it's kind of for me, likeit helps and, and I'm, I, I like
to share cool stuff, but for theinterviews I just chase who I'm most
interested in and, and interview them,
(11:07):
you know, it's, uh.
I gotta say, uh, it's refreshing tohear someone say basically the same
thing that goes through my head all thetime where I'm like, man, I'd love to
be better friends with R Paul Wilson.
I know how I'll become better friendswith while I'm on the podcast.
Well, I assume you don't have a giant five foot penguin breathing
(11:29):
down your throat telling you, uh,uh, you know, puppeteering it.
I'm, I, I have a feeling that you arechoosing more or less who you want to have
on the show unless there's a big releaseor a project or something like that.
So, uh, it's probably pretty similar.
Yeah, no, it, it is very similar.
And also, it's not a five foot penguin.
It's a 10 foot penguin.
He's, he's a mo he's an absolute monster.
(11:49):
Let's, that's what I, let'stalk about the coaching, because
you so at Magi Fest this year.
Uh, your booth was like right next tomine, and I watched you sit down with
person, after person, after person.
First of all, what, what is the coaching?
And then, yeah, so, and then let'stalk about how you got into it.
Yep.
So I help magicians grow the business, um,by just giving a really quick overview.
(12:13):
I have two sort ofversions of that that I do.
One is called the Gigs Program,which I just help magicians get gigs.
It's more about like your first few gigs.
Those are for, you know, cool cats.
Do an under 20 5K year trying tolike, just get the basics sorted,
like how to price, how to get leads,how to make our website, how to do
a sales call, like just the basics.
(12:33):
And then.
The other thing I run is the Mastermind,which is basically helping magicians
go from the 25, 35 50 K year to likea hundred, 1 50, 200, 2 50, so on.
And you know, in any sort of likesystem here, my math background's
gonna go bonkers right now, but inany system there are these natural,
(12:55):
um, plateaus that people hit.
And there's a plateauthat happens around like.
10 or 15 K where like you just kind ofstart doing it and you, you're like,
some people call me, I call 500 bucks.
I book a few, I don't know what to do.
That's like sort of one plateau.
And then the other one happensaround like 50 or 60 where you
(13:16):
kind of have some things goingbut you haven't explored more.
You probably need to raise your prices,make your pro better, things like that.
And then there's another plateauaround the like a hundred or 150
KA year mark where you are justso damn busy that you cannot.
Map out the time to scale and doany of the scaling things like
hiring people and using the rightsoftwares and, and uh, leaning into
(13:37):
other lead generating strategies.
So I help magicians with the business.
The, the overview, I guess megiving an overview of the Mastermind
is kind of like the best way.
'cause it like touches onall the things, which is.
There's three parts of a magic businessof any business, but of a magic business,
which is leads, like how you get thepeople in the door, uh, sales, how you
(13:59):
convert those people to, uh, hire you, andthen systems all of the like operations
and behind the scenes of how you do it.
I'm gonna take an extra minute to breakthose down again into like three each.
So leads is inbound.
People inquiring from you.
That's ads.
SEO, word of mouth, gigsites, things like that.
Outbound, you reaching out to thepeople that you wanna do gigs for,
(14:23):
that's cold calls, cold emails,um, cold dms, things like that.
And then past client relationships.
So everyone who's ever booked you,everyone who's ever almost booked you,
and then all your peers and friendsand people like that, sales kind of
breaks down into three parts, which iswhat we call rockstar promo material.
So just making your stuff.
Jump off the page pricing andpackaging, how you offer your stuff
(14:43):
so that you can, you know, make moremoney and, and uh, do do more gigs.
And then the sales process.
So everything from the inquiry tothe sales call to the follow-ups,
to the post event, all that stuff.
And then systems is, um, hiring, sogetting the right people, whether
it's a full-time assistant or likesomeone to design your website so it
doesn't look like you designed it.
Um, there's the actual liketech, so sometimes that is.
(15:08):
Software, CRM, anything that you're usingto operate the business in the background.
And then work-life balance, which islike, we wanna make sure that your
magic business doesn't devolve into youworking eight hours at a computer and
then three hours at night every night.
'cause then it sucks.
You're sort of running two businesses.
So those are all of theregions that we work on.
(15:29):
I'm happy to give you more details abouthow like the mastermind itself works.
Yeah.
But, um, those are thestuff that we work on.
Yeah.
So how.
I wanna come back towhat, how you work on it.
How did you get into it?
Because if you, I mean there, there's, Iwanna, I wanna say this without sounding,
(15:50):
uh, terrible and insulting 'cause Iam deeply fascinated by this 'cause.
If you are, if you are successful inrunning your business, focusing on running
your business would make you more money.
But helping other people isalso a great way to make money.
And so I'm just like, you know, andyou're, I know candidly what you are
(16:11):
doing in the background and that you area very successful up there in Toronto.
And so how did you sort of transitioninto this, this coaching element?
So
I'll tell
you
two, two stories.
The first is the story of howthis specifically started,
and then the second is.
The one that probably is gonna makeme seem much more cleverer than I am.
(16:33):
So, you know, the story of how thisspecifically started is, you know,
over the course of the lifetime of thepodcast, I have sold different things.
I have sold couple of things that sortof resembled this, a course a coaching.
I sold a book, I sold a um, a t-shirt.
There's like 40 magicians inthe planet that have, that
(16:54):
sometimes have a convention.
I just laugh.
Um, and hug them too.
Uh, so I've sold sort ofa random array of stuff.
And then the pandemic was a really funnytime because everyone was all over the
map and Ben and I here in Canada, we hadsort of the opportunity, you know, I.
I remember the day Ben came to me andhe's like, the government is gonna
(17:15):
pay us to not work, so let's not work.
You know, the way it worked forthe Canadian government was like,
if you're making over a certainamount, then they don't pay you.
But if you're, if your like revenuedisappeared, then they'll pay you.
So he was like, bro, let's take atwo month vacation whenever it was.
And I was like, you know what?
I have a feeling that's whateveryone's gonna do, and I'm
(17:37):
gonna be bored outta my mind.
So why don't we do theopposite and why don't we like.
Go hard and just like do everything.
So we ended up doing somuch in the pandemic.
We did.
I mean, I don't know, but I can tellyou probably the most virtual show
of any Canadian virtual performer.
If not top five, top 10, whatever.
Um, we did our five virtual magicconventions, those eight bit magic
(18:02):
conventions, unconventional, fun.
And during that time, I've been a hugeadvocate always in my life of just like.
Teach what, you know, what'ssort of how the podcast has been.
I've just taught all the thingsI learned and in that time we
were one of the magicians thatwere on the forefront of virtual.
So I started running differentsessions for, uh, um, the discourse
(18:28):
and magic audience through thenewsletter and the Instagram, whatever.
For virtual, everything from likehow to use ECA M Live and how to
set up the space and how to do thesound to like how to book a gig in
virtual and how much to charge andwhat to put in the act and whatever.
And over that time it just escalatedand escalated and people were
asking me like, can you help?
(18:48):
Like, you know, will you work with me?
Like, will you help me grow the business?
Will you help me with the showand you help me with that?
So that's kind of how it started.
And then I was wakingup in the morning doing.
10 straight hours of 30 minuteback-to-back calls and then going
to sleep and doing that again.
And that was stupid.
And it was stupid.
Not only for me 'cause I couldn't breathe,um, and couldn't run the Toronto Magic
(19:10):
Company, but it was also dumb because.
By like day five, I would've hadthe same conversation nine times.
And I'm like, wouldn't it be smarterif we put all these people doing
the exact same thing all in one roomtogether and taught them the thing?
Or on top of that, wouldn't it besmarter if I recorded this lesson so that
when someone says, how do you do this?
(19:31):
I don't have to get on another call,and it like, why don't I do it once?
Awesome.
Make the worksheets, make thetemplates, make the everything so
people can copy and paste, and that way.
People can do it and then ask mefor advice on it instead of asking
for advice about how to do it.
Like, it's like hiring someoneto help you with your show.
There's nothing worse than you hiresomeone and they tell you a bunch
of advice that you already know andyou're like, I should have implemented
(19:53):
this advice first and then paidyou money to consult on my show.
The other way around is likesuch a waste for us both.
'cause you're telling me stuffI know and I paid money for
someone to tell me stuff I know.
So that was how it started.
That's the like.
Real.
That's like the real answerof how this came to be.
Mm-hmm.
The like answer that'sgonna make me sound.
5% smarter than I am, which I'm probablynot, is that when I started the podcast
(20:18):
in 2016, I was learning in the world ofonline business and entrepreneurship and
whatever, and I had the thesis that I.
If I had an audience at somepoint, I don't know what it is, I
will have something to sell them.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I don't know what it is, but a lot of dollars are
exchanged in the magic business.
(20:38):
It could be clothing, it could beaffiliates for tricks, it could be.
My own tra I didn't know what it was, so Ikind of just put my head down and built a
podcast and for a really long time, whichit still might be by the way, 'cause a lot
of people ask about this, but I thought itwas gonna be a beautiful, um, uh, coffee
(20:59):
table book with the top interviews withtheir like lessons and things like that.
A bitch to produce, obviously, you know?
Yeah.
So, um, haven't done that yet.
Uh, but it sort of ended up beingthe coaching, you know, the coaching
ended up being the thing where Ishared what I did and as Ben and I
had successes, I do the business partof our company as well as some of the
(21:22):
shows, but as Ben and I had successes,I would just turn around and teach it.
And when we had failures,I'd be like, don't do this.
Or like, if anybody has a differentway of doing this, like, great,
but don't do it the way that Idid it 'cause it didn't work so.
That's kind of how it came to be.
The magic of our stuff working out inCovid because we were going so hard
and me teaching it plus the kind ofthing in the background of being like.
(21:45):
At some point, maybe I'll havesomething to sell to an audience,
but like, I don't know what it is.
And like I said, ended up not beingt-shirts 'cause all the money went to the
t-shirt company and it was just impossibleand it didn't end up being eBooks and it
didn't end up be like, so there's a lotof things that it didn't end up being,
um, that I tried over the, from 2016 to.
(22:07):
Mid to late 2020.
Um, but coaching ended up being thething that, that people really need.
Well, I, I've got a lot of friends whoare in the Mastermind program and they
speak pretty highly of it, and I've seenthem definitely growing their business.
On one hand, it, it doesseem a little bit like.
You know, if you, if you pay forthis, you are incentivized to actually
(22:31):
like, implement the things you learn.
And so it's, it's a great way tosort of hold yourself accountable.
Uh, but on the, on the other hand,like, sounds like they're learning
like really important stuff.
I mean, what are, what are somebasic mistakes that you see a lot
of people making when they're tryingto build their magic business?
Yeah, I wanna comment on that first thing first, because
(22:52):
you're a hundred percent right.
You know, like a lot of the timespeople are, uh, afraid to be
serious about what they're doing.
And one of the guys, Kelvin, who, uh,lives in Vancouver, great magician
and he joined the mastermind.
I think he's okay with me sharing numbers.
But anyways, he went from basically50 K to 250 K in three years inside
(23:12):
of the Mastermind, which is insane.
Like that's life changing differencein your yearly revenue and it's
'cause he implemented all the stuff.
So I hired him as a coach in theMastermind so people get help from
me as well as him, as well as ourGoogle ads guy, as well as a guy
named Jeff and a bunch of cool things.
But he said somethingwhich I thought was so.
(23:33):
Clever, which is, you know, I chat with alot of people to join the mastermind and
I walked 'em through what it is and howit works and the pricing and all that.
And there's guarantees so that peoplearen't in the hole as they didn't like
paying for a gym membership and not going,so like we don't quite work like that, but
handful of people are like, you know what?
You know, I don't think that it'sfor me, and it's fear, right?
(23:54):
It's fear about spending a bunch of money.
It's fear about investing in yourself anddoubting that it's gonna work, not just.
I work, I got enough proof that I thatlike they're like faith in their own self.
And Kelvin said something amazing to me,which is like the same people that are
afraid to join the Mastermind are the samepeople that are afraid to try new stuff.
(24:17):
In their business, like how longhave you been thinking about running
Google Ads but never done it?
Or how long has it been a good ideato make content but you didn't do it?
Or how long have you been thinking abouthiring a more expensive videographer
to get a good, like all of the stuffthat the same people that have been
ruminating about the thought of doingthat, but never pulled the trigger
are the same people that don'tpull the trigger to join us with.
(24:41):
All the guarantees in theworld to make it work.
They're like afraid to do it.
So like what you're saying is right,not just in the sense that yes, there's
information and help and supportingguarantees and all that stuff, but
yeah, like a lot of the times it's justsomeone being like, bro, you're here.
So like, it's like,Hey, you should run ads.
Great.
Now I'm part of the mastermind.
What should I do?
(25:01):
It's like, great.
Now that you're paying to be a partof this, now you should run ads.
You know?
And we have all the systemsand stuff, but like.
Now do it.
You know, like, so a lot of that is true.
But the other thing that'sso interesting is that.
It really helps us, like the Mastermindisn't just me helping people.
It's a community and it's pretty coolthat it helps me self-select, kinda like
(25:23):
what we're talking about for the podcast.
Mm-hmm.
For the people that do stuff, likethe people that will try things, um.
They're the ones who are there.
They're the ones who are in it.
'cause they're willing to be like,I guess you guaranteed my result.
You have unlimited testimonials ofpeople, multiple people I know are in it.
Like, yeah, I think, Ithink I can give it a go.
And those are the same people who werelike, okay, you're gonna do cold email.
(25:46):
Here's the template.
Here's people that are doing it.
Here's their results.
Here's how to set it up.
Go and do it.
And they don't hem and haw foreight months about doing it.
They just go, okay, I see the data.
Looks like it works.
I trust you.
Let's do it.
So just wanted to comment on that first,because I think it's such an interesting,
uh, situation where it's kind of like.
(26:09):
It's closer to hiring a personaltrainer than it is a gym membership.
'cause you cannot go to the gym,but the personal trainer's knocking
at your door and ideally teachingyou things about how to grow your
muscles or lose weight or whatever.
It's that you're doingmore than you would've
known.
By the way, everything that you just said.
Absolutely applies to alot of your magic world.
Like the people who are going,man, how do you create a trick?
(26:30):
Well, I don't know.
I screw around with magic stuff.
And eventually, of course,like something happens, right?
Like if you just sit and think aboutcreating a trick or sit and think about,
you know, coming up with, uh, something,it's different than actually like getting
the cards out, playing around with it,doing your research and then doing it.
You're, you're talking, you're,I mean, this is, this is not
rocket science, but it is.
(26:53):
It, it is the truth.
You're, you're a hundred percent right.
Just to go on a funny little tangent, to talk about
the podcast for a second is like.
How many more people can I interviewabout creativity and ask them about how
to be creative and get the same goddamnanswer of like, well, I have a workshop,
and in that workshop I build stuff.
(27:13):
Or, well, I play with tricks and Ishow it to people and I keep playing,
and then this is what I end up with.
Or like, it's the same thing.
And now I'm, I'm kind of like afraidto ask people about creativity because.
What the hell else are they gonna say?
Like, you know, there's no one's gotlike a fountain of youth that they're
drinking from to get all their good ideas.
Like, this is how you be creative.
(27:34):
You have to play like you haveto, you have to do the stuff.
So it's the same thing.
Same thing for business.
You do have to do the stuff touncover new things that work.
Uh, so we're.
Where are you?
What, what actually, like whatdoes it look like when you're
inside the Mastermind program?
Like what's a, what's an averagemeeting of this community like?
(27:56):
Yep.
So there's a couple piecesthat sort of make it possible.
There's like the plan,the tools and the help.
So first the plan, um, whenI get started working with
someone, we basically do a, uh.
You know, top down, look at their businessand we make a plan for like what are the
major projects they need to work on, makesure they know how to get help doing that.
(28:17):
And then also four times a year, allthe members of the mastermind all get
together and plan out the next 90 days.
'cause as you can imagine, waiting to doin January or February, March, waiting
to do in October, November, Decemberare two completely different things.
So we make sure that people are workingon the right stuff at the right time.
One of those meetings, bythe way, happens in Mexico.
All inclusive, super fun, rad, rad event.
And then three of those are.
(28:38):
Online, like multi-day, sort of like,um, magic conventions, but online.
So that's the plan.
The tools is how we make sureeveryone knows how to do the stuff.
So there's a content bank with.
Videos and worksheets and templatesand over the shoulders of all of the
stuff that we teach, all of those,I told you about the lead sales
(29:00):
systems and all, all of that stuff.
There's videos and tools and templatesand over the shoulders about how to do
all of that plus way, way, way more.
Um, there's something we do calledthe 10 K Mastermind, which is.
Members of the mastermind teachingstuff that gets recorded and goes in the
content bank that's worth at least 10K in your business if you do it, like
there's someone who's made like over150 k doing just SEO and there's someone
(29:23):
who makes like 10 K every quarter doinglike workshops, after school workshops
with kids and, and on and on and on.
So we got those, and thenwe've got live workshops.
So there's four.
Workshops a month on differentsubjects that people can attend live.
And sometimes it's me, sometimesit's a guest, sometimes it's a
mastermind member teaching something.
(29:44):
That stuff goes in the content bank.
We got my Google Ads guy whodoes, who's responsible for.
You know, crushing our ads, who doesa weekly session that people can log
in and get their ads looked at, andthose get recorded in the content bank.
So there's a lot of content.
So stuff to do.
And again, we tell people, don't binge it.
'cause if it was about informationand not implementation, we'd all
(30:04):
be billionaires with six pack ads.
So instead of binging it,take the plan we gave you.
Go work on that stuff,get it done, get our.
Feedback and then moveon to the next project.
So we talked about the plan, we talkedabout the tools, and then the help.
So a couple ways to get help.
There's a weekly win, the week callevery Monday, um, where everyone
shows up and we say, Hey, what'dyou say we're gonna do last week?
(30:25):
What'd you actually do last week?
And then problem solving.
So people bring up any stocks and myselfand other people are there to, to help.
There is a private Facebook group.
Which is not a Facebook groupabout people arguing about, uh,
new magic releases and crediting.
Uh, that's not our, uh,that's not our vibe.
It's just mastermind members, youknow, people doing 50, a hundred,
1 50, 200 KA year, all there tohelp each other and problem solve.
(30:48):
Um.
There is Kelvin, who I told youabout already, who is a coach
as well in the Mastermind now.
So if people need his help, thenthey send him a message and he
schedules a one-on-one to do whatever.
Like some people are like, Hey,I'm setting up this, you know,
landing page for the first time.
Can you just look over my shoulderwhile I do it to make sure
like I'm doing nothing wrong?
Um, and then there's me, whichis what I call the red button.
(31:10):
Which is my personal WhatsApp number.
So if something goes horribly wrong inyour business or horribly right, uh, and
you need some help, send me a messageand we'll get it sorted within 24 hours.
So whether it's like another pandemicor someone wants to book you for a multi
show tour or whatever, you don't knowhow to price it, send me a message and we
get it sorted within the next 24 hours.
So.
There's a lot.
Um, but the whole point of it isthat, A, you always know what to do.
(31:32):
B you know how to get help whenit is that you're doing it.
And c, there's alwayssupport and people to.
Um, compare and people to seewhat they're doing and see
what they're, what's going on.
And we get some crazy data'cause we got like 45 magicians.
We know what busy months of the year are.
We know what's we're, we can tellyou when to go on your vacation.
(31:54):
Like on average, if you're planningyour vacation a few months in
advance, we're gonna be like, you'reprobably not a, gonna book a gig.
You know, in February.
That's the worst month across the board.
So like.
Book your vacation, then, you know, don'tbook it in in October, November, December.
So an average week, just to say onemore thing about it, an average week is.
People come to the win the week calls,they post any questions or stocks or
(32:17):
problems or anything in the Facebookgroup, they come to the session or not
about whatever it is we're working on.
It could be us doing sales call trainingsand doing dummy calls so they can
learn, or it could be me teaching anew system of LinkedIn ads or whatever.
Um, and then if they're currentlyrunning Google ads, they can come to
the Google Ads, call and get eyes froma. An expert on what it looks like.
(32:38):
And then once a quarter we all gettogether, see how they're doing on
the goals that they set and thatwe set, and then basically plan
new goals for the next quarter.
We're, uh, you know what, this is likereally fascinating stuff and it makes
me sort of go, well, I. If thingsever go south for me at Penguin, I,
I know the, the first, that Giant
10 Foot Penguin is, uh, is Browning right now.
(33:01):
Uh, no, this sounds fan.
Where can, where can listeners findout more about the Mastermind if
they, uh, if they want to sort ofjoin and hold themselves accountable?
So I'll give you an email address, which is magic@torontomagiccompany.com.
And then the other thingI'll just tell you is.
Discourse in magic, which is the nameof the podcast on Instagram, on the
(33:22):
website, whatever, like, come as a weirdsentence to say, but come sniff my butt.
Uh, like, like you're possibly hearingabout me for the first time on a podcast.
And you're like, what is this guy?
And, and you may not want from a randomemail to come and be a part like.
Sniff my butt.
I put out a lot of content.
You know, there's a lot of work.
Every couple months I do like a publicworkshop on something, you know,
I got videos, I got testimonials.
(33:44):
I got like, come sniff my butt.
Listen to the podcast.
Go listen to the business onlyepisodes that I run about this or that.
And, uh, if you like it, then.
Send me a message and ifyou hate it, then cool.
It's free anyways, so if you directly wantto know magic@torontomagiccompany.com.
But my advice is just go follow me on,I would say your favorite platform.
(34:05):
It's basically Instagram,Facebook, whatever.
Follow me there, sniff my butt,listen to the podcast and uh,
and then send me a message.
And that's what that.
Like strategy call that we do is firstis you sniff my butt, I sniff your butt.
Um, and we both sort of figureout if, 'cause like what's so
weird is that the product orthe mastermind is the community.
(34:26):
Mm-hmm.
The product is the people.
So if someone shits in the pool, noone wants to be in the pool anymore.
Um, so I have to be picky aboutwho is invited to be a part of it.
So aside from there beingrevenue minimums mm-hmm.
There's also like, you know, acouple other things that I do both.
Um, like technical things to make surethat someone's a good fit, like revenue,
(34:47):
uh, uh, dollars or, or other aspectsthat they need to have in their business,
as well as like emotional things.
Like if I wouldn't have invite thisperson to my house for dinner, um,
as like a bare minimum, then like,I don't want them in the community.
I'm gonna be talking to them everyweek for like a year, you know?
Yeah.
Like, so I, I don't wantthem in the community.
So, um, you know, it's the, the.
(35:09):
Uh, application processes, both a chancefor you to learn more about us and
us learn more about you and all that.
Jonah, uh, thanks so much for spendingsome time with me talking on the podcast
and, uh, and I, I can't wait to actuallygo catch up on my Discourse and magic
podcast 'cause I listen all the time.
Yeah, man.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on.
Um, this is awesome.
I love it.
(35:29):
We're like, uh.
Uh, podcast cousins, you know, outthere in the, out there in the universe.
Every year when people sharetheir Spotify rap, it's like you
and me neck and neck up there.
Um, I'm having fun.
So, uh, such a blast.
Much, uh, much appreciated.
And um, yeah man, let's do somefun stuff and if anyone needs
anything as questions, anything likethat, you know, send me a message
(35:50):
that's gonna do it for this week.
Kids.
Thanks so much to Jonah for being on theshow and thanks to you for listening.
I dunno about you, but improvingmy magic business sounds.
Pretty appealing.
You might just look a littlebit more into this group.
Well, as you are listening to this, thefinal Winter Carnival of Magic is getting
into full swing, and then on Sunday I hopon a plane for Las Vegas where I'll see
you all at the Mystify Magic Convention.
(36:11):
Seems like convention season comesearlier and earlier every year.
I can't wait to see all thePenguin fans at Mystify.
Be sure to stop by the booth and also hangout with me in some of the late night.
Sessions, I'm sure we can teacheach other some cool stuff.
As always, we're a weekly podcast, sobe sure to like and subscribe as we'll.
Share your favorite episodes on thesocial media platform that you've
been looking for a convention info on.
(36:32):
If you wanted to reach out to meabout anything on this week's show,
you're gonna have to send me anote written in code on the back
of the Declaration of Independence.
I'm about to spend a lot of time onplanes and given how often they seem to
be falling outta the sky these days, I'mgonna go down watching National Treasury.
It's seriously one of the best movies, so.
Good, but if stealing the Declarationof Independence isn't your cup
of tea, you can always hit meup on Instagram at Eric Tate.
(36:55):
That's at E-R-I-K-T-A-I-T fromme and everyone here at the P
three Magic Studios Practice.
Practice, perform.
(37:15):
Well, there you have it.
I hope you liked the episode and I hopeof course that you learn something.
Uh, I think I mentioned sniffing buttsa couple too many times in this episode.
So please, if you meet me ata magic convention, do not.
Sniff my, but however, if you do want todo something good for me, that has nothing
to do with my, but please vote for me, uh,to win the FM award for Magic podcaster.
(37:39):
I'm very excited that I wasnominated and now I get to spread
the word to get some votes.
I put the link in thedescription of this episode.
Thanks so much for being here.
Hope you learned and liked something,and I'll see you next Thursday.
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