Reimagining Magic Performance with Taylor Hughes

Renowned magician and captivating storyteller Taylor Hughes joins us for an insightful exploration of his magical journey

The post Reimagining Magic Performance with Taylor Hughes appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my friends, and welcome to a brand
new episode of Discourse in Magic.
My name is Jonah Bavins and in this episode,
we sit down with Taylor Hughes.
Taylor is an amazing magician and
storyteller who has gone about his magic
career in a unique way.
He talks about not only how he writes the
magic in his act, not only how he writes

(00:23):
books in his act, but also how he manages
to go viral and how things like social
media and making Amazon specials make a
difference in his business, and how you
should think about creating material for
your act and throwing it all away and
starting again.
This was an incredible episode, not only
because it was full of information, like

(00:44):
how to write things that actually resonate
with other people, but also full of
inspiration, of things that you can learn
how to do and you can strive for in your
magic business and magic career.
I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I
did.
Please enjoy a lovely conversation with the
one and only Taylor Hughes.

(01:14):
Hello, my friends, and welcome to a brand
new episode of Discourse in Magic.
My name is Jonah Babins and we are here
with the one and only Taylor Hughes.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Taylor, how you doing?
I'm doing so good, buddy.
Thanks for letting me crash your party here.
Thanks for coming and really excited to
talk about so much.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
I mean, aside from the fact that you are
just an awesome, awesome performer.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
I get the privilege for this podcast of
following my interest and interviewing the
people that do the things that I'm most
interested in at the time, and I got a
chance to see you do a handful of different
things at Magic Live and I was just like,
yeah, this is awesome.
This is the kind of thing that I want to
talk about.
So excited to talk about it excited to get
into it.
Thank you, man, and I've been listening to

(01:55):
the podcast.
I love these conversations and we were
talking a little bit about this beforehand,
but there's very little opportunities for
other performers to hear kind of like the
you know, the green room conversations, the
stuff we talk about when we're just hanging
out having coffee and the things that help
us feel like we're not alone in this weird,
weird business.
So thank you for making a space for us to

(02:17):
all learn and grow and also not feel alone,
of course, and I appreciate it.
Thanks so much for listening and being a
part of this.
Let's start way back at the very beginning.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
How did you even get started in magic?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, so I mean typical story.
I got a magic kit when I was a kid.
But that started because I was my stepdad's
best friend who lived with us for a little
while.
He was a stand-up comedian and was just the
funniest dude at dinner.
He would always be, you know, doing little
gags and bit.
And my mom asked him.

(02:50):
She said, can you do a show for taylor's
seventh birthday?
And he's thinking I can't do stand-up for
seven-year-olds.
But he had.
He got his start off doing magic and so he
he put together a little magic show and did
it for my birthday and I was just hooked
Like from that second I said this is what I
want to do.
So I started playing with it right away.

(03:12):
It's so awesome.
And I have this theory about magic, which
is that the reason why we all have that
same story is not because an uncle or
friend or whatever doing magic is like the
most amazing thing, but instead it's just
like if there's a type of person that has
that little bit of analytic and little bit
of entertainment and whatever in them and
they see magic, they're, they're, they're

(03:33):
hooked, so it's not that like the magic was
the most amazing magic, it's just like the
person is the type of person that has that
engineering-y, problem-solving-y, but also
funny or whatever type brain.
And then they see magic.
And then they look it's so true, man, it's
funny.
My dad used to take us every Friday night.
He would take us to the local video store,
you know back in the 80s, and we would rent.

(03:55):
We could each pick out a movie to rent and
I, for about three months straight, every
Friday night, I would rent the making of
Michael Jackson's thriller music video.
Wow, cause I was obsessed with like the
special effects of how they created this
world, then turn these people into you know
different creatures, and I would watch it
over and over.
And then when I saw a magic show, I just

(04:15):
couldn't believe it was like that you were
doing special effects in the movie, but
like right in my living room and I thought
I got to learn how to do this.
So what happened from there?
Like you're like right in my living room
and I thought I got to learn how to do this.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
So what happened.
From there You're like okay, I like magic.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Maybe you started playing with it?
Did you start pursuing it seriously?
Were you just toying around?
What did that look like?
Yeah, for the first few years just going to
every magic shop.
Anytime I would be on a family trip.
I'd pull out the yellow pages and try to
find out where and sorry, where in the
States did you grow up?
I grew up in Southern California, so I live,
I grew up in Azusa, which is about 35

(04:52):
minutes from the Magic Castle in Hollywood,
and so when I was a kid, we had luckily we
had like three or four local magic shops in
our area and I, my parents, were just
they've always been this way with my
siblings as well where, like, if you show a
spark of interest, they would just like
pour gasoline on it.
Yeah, that's great.
So they were never.
They would never get annoyed to like, drive

(05:12):
me to a magic shop or take me to a friend's
house who was into card tricks and you know,
we'd get to jam and stuff.
And then when I was a teenager I was 16 I
auditioned to join the Magic Castle Junior
Society and that's that's kind of when it
went a little crazy, because it was like
all of a sudden there was other people who
were wanting this on a professional level
and it just was like summer camp with magic.

(05:34):
You know it's awesome.
There's nothing like.
You know, I went to the magic camp in
Canada Sorcerer's Safari and there is
nothing that'll lock you into magic than
being with.
I remember my mom dropping me off at the
bus and there was this girl that brought
two bird cages full of birds and I was like
I'm here, man, this is crazy.
So there's nothing quite like that.

(05:55):
Obviously, there's more of a gap to bridge
here between what you do now and saying,
okay, I want to do this professionally,
okay, it seems possible.
It seems like what did you do now?
And saying like, okay, I want to do this
professionally, okay, it seems possible.
It seems like what did you do?
Did?
Did you start doing birthday parties, did
you?
How did you go from there?
I did, yeah, I started.
The first birthday party was my friend
Shannon's 10th birthday party and I did

(06:18):
magic and got paid 25 bucks and all the
pizza I could eat.
I was so stoked and I just started.
I got a little business.
My dad got me a little business cards
printed and at first it was all my, my
parents' friends, you know who'd be like,
have me come and do close up magic at their.
You know their gatherings and stuff and I
just I just started saying I was doing it
and pretty regularly was doing other kids'

(06:40):
birthday parties and a lot of weird
scenarios.
Because you know, when you're starting out,
you say yes to everything and so, yeah,
probably a lot of places I shouldn't have
been performing that I ended up.
Was there a turning point where you found a
way or a route to start doing this?
Because now you're on bigger stages and
corporate audiences and things like that.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Like was it an agent that found you?
Did you start running ads?

Speaker 2 (07:06):
or something Like you know, how did you get
to this?
I have different.
I have kind of two career paths in magic.
When I first started out and I got involved
in the Junior Society Diana Zimmerman, who
ran the program at the time she gave a
lecture one day and there's two things that
stand out to me.

(07:29):
One she told us all there's something very
strange about you all and you need to
understand this.
Most people don't want to stand in front of
a crowd and pick up a microphone.
And the fact that you're excited about
doing that just realize that you're in a
different mindset than a lot of people.
Yeah.
The second thing she said is never say you
can't do something.
So she said, if somebody wants you to do
something and they got a budget for it and
they want to give you the opportunity, to

(07:49):
say you can do it and figure it out later.
And that week I booked my first illusion
show and I didn't own any illusions and it
was just one of those things of like
awesome, you know, could you do something
with our CEO?
Oh, yeah, we can make them appear Great.
And how much will that be?
An extra $50.

(08:12):
You know.
So I paid a hundred dollars to rent a prop
to make an extra $50, but just figured it
out and I had a kind of a diversion from
magic.
For many, many years I worked at a church
as a youth pastor, which you knew the
second you saw my face Doesn't watch off
but I had grown up in a place where I was
just always put my hand up to volunteer and
eventually ended up taking a role on staff

(08:33):
at a church For about 13 years.
I did that while performing magic.
I'm still doing about 60 or 70 shows a year.
And then 11 years ago I left that season of
life and have been doing magic full-time
since.
So kind of had two starts in magic, because
the last year that I worked for the church

(08:54):
I had quit performing completely, like took
down my website, changed my phone number,
was just trying to figure out, am I
supposed to be doing this career or am I
supposed to be doing magic?
And so for a year didn't do it at all, and
then when I started back up it was like
starting back from scratch.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
So I mean, first of all, it's wild.
It's a wild story and I think a lot of
people can relate to that, like magic pause.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
I know I've had those early on, you know as
a teen being like, let me stop this for a
minute.
And then you know, as a teen being like,
let me, let me stop this for a minute, and
then you know you pick a backup, or
whatever the case may be With both of these,
I think I'm.
What I'm curious about is, like, what was
or was there a proactive element, like you
take your website down and you stop doing
shows for a year and then you're like I'm

(09:39):
back and like what do you do?

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Do you like call repass client?
Do?

Speaker 2 (09:41):
you like post on social media, like, like
what.
What did you do then to make it get to 75
shows a year, the first time but then also
the second time.
Yeah, so that and this is.
There's no way to get into this whole story.
But I have a 75 minute solo show with no
magic in it, just comedy storytelling,
called the last sermon, where I kind of
walk through this whole experience.

(10:03):
But when I started back up I had literally
sold all my props.
I didn't even have a prop, I didn't have a
contact, I had been out of the business for
a year, so friends had kind of forgotten
that I was doing it.
And the first step was I just called
buddies who I knew were still in the game
and I was like you know, I will do anything.
Like it was literally one of those
scenarios where it's like I got to put food

(10:25):
on the table, we had two little kids and I
will, I will do anything.
And also I called some friends and was like,
can I borrow a vanishing ketchup bottle?
Can I do you have a spot card?
Like I literally was just trying to
reassemble an act at the beginning of it
and then again and act at the beginning of
it and then again going back to when I

(10:46):
started performing again.
What was wild is I didn't have a lot of
things like contacts.
I didn't have, you know, props, I didn't
have all this stuff.
But I also didn't have all the nonsense
that I had attached to performing before
that, like worried about what other
performers thought, worried about you know.
You know, kind of like the imposter

(11:07):
syndrome that we can deal with by giving
magic up for a year that was all gone, and
so I was just like this I have no choice
but to be really practical about this.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
You know like to build a show and not
fiddle with tricks or whatever.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yes, and also like I stopped being so
precious about things.
I think one of the good things about being
creative is we really care about our ideas
and our projects and we want to do the best
we can and I think we absolutely should.
But I also think magicians tend to polish
things to the point where they're not good
anymore, and so that was I was just.

(11:45):
You know, there was kind of a fire lit
under me of like sink or swim.
It's either this or get a job at Target,
but the family needs to eat and we gotta
pay the bills, and so that kind of changed
the whole way I approach magic.
And now you know, just try to make projects
I care about and put them out.

(12:05):
So I wanna talk about a couple of things
you just said.
I really love that phrase of polish until
they're not good anymore.
I'm curious about that.
But just to sort of ask another flavor of
this question one more time, was the answer
like?

Speaker 1 (12:19):
you just called everyone you knew and you
called in every favor and you just got back
to it.
Was there anything else that you did, or it
just?
Sort of happened with enough like calling
magicians and friends and colleagues and
comedians and whatever, and just saying
like, what do I do?
And it just sort of showed up.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, starting out the gate it was just
kind of screaming from the rooftops that,
like, I am back, I'm performing, I want to
work.
And then I started looking.
I mean this is wild because I haven't
thought about this in a while.
I mean this was 11 years ago.
But I literally would go on Back then, I
would go on Craigslist and I would see what
events are happening, because you know,

(12:56):
they would always advertise the local golf
tournament, yeah.
And so I was like, oh, I'm just gonna reach
out to these people and say, do you have
somebody who's doing entertainment, do you
have someone who's an MC?
I literally started cold calling great and
I stumbled into.
For a few years I did a lot of golf
tournaments, which, if anyone's looking for
a market that is 90% untapped golf

(13:18):
tournaments, is a great place for magicians
to work, because you come in often, people
coming off the course in shifts, right.
So there's there's the people that were out
on the golf course all day long and they
just want to find out if they want a raffle
prize, eat some dinner and go home, yeah,
and all these things are fundraisers and so
they're selling a ticket to people who were
there all day and they need to get value

(13:40):
out of their bucks.
So you, if, man, if you can come in and be
like, hey, I, I'll MC a raffle, I'll do
close up magic.
In that weird awkward time as we're waiting
for everyone to come off the course, I'll
do the introductions for people you can.
You can have a pretty solid business as a
as a MC for golf tournaments, cause they're
happening at every golf course.
That's awesome, five days a week.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
It's great advice and also it sounds like
the answer to like how you got got great
advice and also it sounds like the answer
to like how you got got sort of back up on
your fee and magic is just through, like
hustle.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
You know, like this is my only thing, I
don't have a backup plan.
This is what I'm doing calling friends,
opening up craigslist calling thing, like
just whatever you you know whatever you can
do to get there and in those first couple
years I did everything.
I mean I sold squirmal know the squirmal
worms.
Yeah, I would do those in a Svengali pitch

(14:29):
at like street fairs, and I did everything
just to pay the bills, while I kind of
figured out what kind of show I really
wanted to do Awesome.

Speaker 1 (14:39):
So let's talk about.
You know I want to talk about, you know,
the show that you really want to do, which.
There's a lot of that that I want to talk
about.
I just want to stop and ask about that
quote of they polish things until they're
not good anymore.
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Well, so okay, a lot of my philosophy of
magic is seeing the things I love about
magic and then seeing the things that don't
work or wouldn't work for me about magic.
And I luckily grew up going to the Magic
Castle as a teenager and getting to see
amazing performers.

(15:15):
I mean, you're talking like some of the
greats you could get to see in person.
It was unbelievable.
And then five years later or ten years
later, I'd go back up to the castle and see
those same performers doing the same act.
And unfortunately, most, most magicians you
know most of my, so I've got a lot of my

(15:36):
entertainer friends are comedians.
A lot of my entertainer friends are
magicians.
That comedians are like create an hour,
polish that hour and then film or record
that hour yeah put it out and then start
over, yeah, and so what happens is they
work, work, work with this idea of like,
this is not gonna live forever, but I want
it to be the best version of it I can, and

(15:57):
then, when it gets to be the best version I
think it can I'm gonna film it and put it
out and unfortunately, I think, as
magicians like there's just magicians tend
to do a 45 or an hour and they're going to
do that 45 or an hour for 30 years and just
the way storytelling works, the way
presentations worked.

(16:18):
after a while you get tired of hearing your
own words and it loses a little bit of the
gusto, like of hearing your own words, and
it loses a little bit of the gusto, like
you know, if a band only ever wrote five
songs, they're gonna get sick of it, the
audience is gonna get sick of it, and I
just think.
I think I think magicians, I think I think
we're a little too precious with stuff.
And, yeah, we, we will do a routine until,

(16:40):
like, it loses what made that routine good
in the first place.
That's so awesome, that's such an
interesting context because, like you know,
there's I forget the exact name of it, but
it's like you know the plight of the artist
or something like that, which is you work
on this thing and by the time it's done,
you are so much better than that thing that
you made, that you don't really like it

(17:01):
because you've learned so much about art
and creating whatever that.
now you're like this is kind of, this is
not my best work and, like a lot of
magicians, then just sharpen that instead
of at some point starting fresh, which is,
I think, such a refreshing context.
And just talking about the practicality,
like you know, a lot of the way that

(17:22):
magicians do what we do is people hire us
and love us and then they're like, can I
bring you back?
And you're like it's the same show.
You can't really bring me back, you know,
like.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
so in terms of practicality, like yeah, if
you're going to be in magic for a 30 or 40
year career, like you probably want to make
a second act or a third act or something in
that time.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, yeah Well, and the fact that,
whether your act is changing or not, you
are growing as a human right.
So I mean, how many performers have you
seen that had a great act when they were 20,
but now they're in their 40s and they've
got kids and a family and you know they're
dealing with different issues and they're
still playing the character they were where.

(18:02):
They were like a young, fun 20-year-old and
it's like it doesn't fit you anymore.
It's like wearing clothes that you've
outgrown.
And it doesn't mean it's not good.
I just feel like there's so much more that
you can be discovering.
If you don't, if you view a little bit of
your like that this is all temporary and

(18:24):
I'm gonna to, you know, enjoy it while it's
here and then I'm going to let it go.
You'll find really cool stuff.
The formers are great.
They just, you know, they built a really
creative act 20 years ago and then haven't
used that creative element.
Well, that was the last thing I was going
to say about this.
That I really like is you know, we all kind

(18:45):
of in some way, shape or form, got into
magic, because we like magic and making and
playing and writing and doing and like at
some point if you don't change your act,
you stop getting to do all that stuff, you
stop thinking about new tricks and writing
new things, that come up with new bits and
new like you.
just stop doing that because you have your
45 minutes.
So it's a great.

(19:05):
It's a great thought, it's a great angle,
your sort of specific style of magic.
One of the things that jumps out to me so
much is that it is really a lens of, you
know, speaking, storytelling.
You know a lot of these elements that make
their way into it is what makes it

(19:26):
memorable and makes it resonate and makes
it different.
Can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Because it looks and feels a little bit
different than most magic feels like and
you know, I think some of us are
uncomfortable talking for eight straight
minutes on stage without doing a trick and
even knowing how to write something like
that.
So can you talk a little bit about you know?

Speaker 2 (19:47):
why that's what it looks like for you.
Yeah, for sure.
So let's see, 11 years ago.
We're coming up on the 11 year anniversary
of me doing magic folds time and for the
first four years of that time I was just
doing stuff that I had done.
You know, bits that I had done since I was
a kid.
That worked.
And my wife one day we're driving home from
a party with friends and we made out a

(20:09):
great night, and she goes why don't you do
that on stage?
And I said, what are you talking about?
And I had just been sharing a funny story.
It was a personal thing that happened.
She's, like you know, in your shows you're

(20:30):
doing really fun magic and it's, you know,
strong magic and you're doing funny jokes,
but they're not personal.
You're not sharing any of you in this show.
And I started thinking about it and I
realized, oh my goodness, she's absolutely
right.
Like it was, it wasn't a bad show, but you
could literally hand it to another
performer and it would be the same
experience for the audience.
They didn't leave at all.
So I started thinking what do I want the

(20:50):
audience to leave thinking about?
And at first I said, you know, I want
people to leave going.
I'd like to grab a drink with that guy,
like I want.
I want people to go like I'd like to get to
know that guy.
And now my, my thought process with
everything is, if I do a good job during
the show, they will feel like we just did
so, like people will leave the show going.

(21:12):
I got to know him, he got to know me and I
liked this guy.
That is.
That is what I kind of based everything off
of, and so I started.
I started by just taking one story and this
ended up being on my first special that's
on Amazon.
It's called Chasing Wonder, but the story
of being a kid and messing up the magic

(21:32):
milk pitcher and pouring milk all over this
girl at a party.
I just took this story and I started
thinking how could I tell this as a piece
on stage?
And at first I thought, well, maybe I'll do
the magic milk pitcher and I'll tell the
story.
And then I went no, no, no, I'm going to
write the story without performing and I'm
just going to try to make it as funny and
as relatable as possible and then later

(21:56):
I'll add in a magic trick to it.
And I told it for the first time on stage
and something different happened.
All of a sudden.
The audience was like leaning in in a new,
in a new kind of way and I realized, you
know, I I've been a fan of the pot the moth
podcast, the moth radio hour, you know
where it's just true stories told without

(22:16):
notes, these kinds of transformational
stories.
I've been a fan of that for years and I
realized, you know, there's a difference.
When you're at a party and someone walks up
to you with a deck of cards and they're
doing a trick for you, and then a friend
comes up, one of their friends comes up,
they go, oh I'm so sorry, thank you, but my
buddy's here and they will stop watching
your magic to talk to their friend.
But if you're telling somebody a story at a

(22:37):
party and their best friend in the world
walks up, they go like, oh my gosh, I'm so
here, so glad you're here, hold on one
second.
What were you saying?
People want to hear the end of a story and
they just connect in a different way.
And so I stopped thinking about what tricks
do I want to do?
And I started thinking about what do I want
to say to the audience.
And now that's 100% of how I come up with

(23:02):
routines.
I never, I never go like oh, I really like
this routine.
I want to do that.
I go.
What do I want?
To tell people?
Whether it's a funny story, a personal
thing, something to get them to think about
life, and then at what trick will justify
me doing that?
And that's how I build the show.
Now it's so.
Starts with the magic.

(23:25):
First of all, I love it.
I think it's great.
It's a kind of thing that I hear you know
more and more often.
I think that there's two things that I want
to comment about it and ask more.
The first is the first thing to comment is
I really like that.
You are not hoping that, or in the instance
that you gave me, you know you're not
hoping that they want to leave knowing
something about the world or understanding.

(23:45):
You know the idea of, like I want them to
want to have a drink with me or feel like
they just had a ticket.
You know is a nice version of that.
My question, which that itself may answer,
but just to like, dig in and I asked this
to everybody on the podcast that says you
want to express more, you and you want to
tell them something, and whatever the
question is says you want to express more
you and you want to tell them something,

(24:06):
and whatever the question is, I'm a 19 year
old guy who just finished high school and
I'm now doing my act and someone tells me
you got to express you, you got to tell
them something.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
What do you want to tell them?
And I'm going like, do I possibly have to
tell them?
And whether you're listening to this and
you're a 19 year old guy or a 45 year old
guy or whatever.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
I think that feeling persists of being like
what does little old me have to tell the
world?
So how do you sort of answer that?
How would you help someone that's
struggling with the like?
And what do I have to say?
Oh, this is so good.
I think sometimes, when people start
thinking this way, their thought process is
I don't have anything to teach anyone.

(24:45):
The goal is not to teach anybody anything,
because, you're absolutely right, most
performers who fail, especially in, like,
an MC capacity, they're speaking to a room
of 60 year olds and they're 20, 30 years
old and they're trying to act like the
authority over that group.
Yeah, and that will never work.
The thing is, though, everybody deals with

(25:06):
the same issues.
They deal with insecurity, they deal with
wanting to feel motivated about life.
They deal with wanting to feel valued.
Right, those are universal things that, if
you're 19 years old, you may not know what
it's like to be the CEO of a company, but I
remember what it's like to be 19.

(25:27):
To be the CEO of a company, but I remember
what it's like to be 19.
And so, if you can remind me what it was
like to be young like if I was talking to a
19 year old, I'd be, like, don't try to
position yourself as like oh, this is all
the wisdom I've gained in my 19 years.
I would try to remind them what it was like
to be a young kid and trying to figure out
life and not having all the answers.
And, ironically, a 60-year-old who's been

(25:49):
running a company for 30 years will relate
to that and go like, I still don't have all
the answers.
So it's not about trying to go how can I
teach somebody something?
It's trying to find the universal things
that are a part of your very personal
experience.
And so the best thing you could do as a
young kid who's trying to like, share your

(26:11):
viewpoint, your perspective, it's not to be
like, oh, I got to learn some cool thing to
pass on to somebody.
Just just share that you are currently
learning.
Talk about the things that you're trying to
figure out, talk about the things that
you're wrestling with or you're wondering
about.
And sometimes I was talking to one guy
recently who was struggling with like, oh,
I feel like people are not going to respect

(26:33):
me or they're not going to listen to me or
they're not going to book me, and it's like
no, remind people of what they've forgotten
about, because at a certain point they
thought I got it all figured out and and
now they realize they haven't and and
they're looking for something.
So, yeah, I, I think the best thing we can
do is share, like, our personal life with

(26:53):
people in an appropriate way.
Yeah, but I think there's, you know, what
else do you have to share but your own
experience?
There's two things about that that jump out
to me, and and I and I really appreciate
what you're talking about, because I think
it is helpful, because for me, it sends me
in two ways.
The first way is that what we're looking
for is not something to teach, but what

(27:15):
we're looking for is something that, at the
core of it, people can relate to.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
So there's a part of it that maybe they
can't relate to.
That's the part that's really unique and
about you.
But at the core of it, the theme, the idea,
the whatever.
It's not about telling them I believe this
is the way it is, or I believe it's not
like that, or I believe it's like this,
it's just about being like look, it happens
to me too.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
You know, I heard a speaker say the only
thing more powerful than someone's I'm
going to get the quote wrong, but it's like
the only thing more powerful than someone
saying like oh, I get, oh, I get.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
That feeling is or I understand that
feeling is to be like.
That happens to more than me.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Like is them going like oh my gosh, that
happens to you too.
Like we're both experiencing that thing.
So I think that's the core that you're
talking about plucking, which is the core
of like can they?
All we're really hoping to do is to make a
connection over a theme, topic, moment,
experience, whatever.
Am I understanding correctly?

(28:17):
Absolutely.
I, ray Romano, who wrote Everybody Loves
Raymond, great, great writer, when he was
writing that show.
You know that show is based on Ray Romano's
life, but most of the stories are from Phil
Rosenthal.
Did I say Ray Romano Ray didn't write it.
Phil Rosenthal wrote Everybody Loves
Raymond.
Most of those stories are about Phil's
family.

(28:37):
Yeah, and he, he's like, when he was
writing it, he was like no one's going to
relate to this because this seems so weird.
My parents are overbearing and they live
next door, my brother's.
You know this weird dude who's always, you
know, jealous of these things.
And he realized the more personal he made
it, the more universal it became.
And people would come up to me and be like
that episode you wrote that's exactly my
family.

(28:58):
You know he'd be in Russia and people would
be like oh, our family is just like that.
It's like what do I have to relate to
someone who lives in Russia.
And yet we all, as humans, have these
experiences.
The problem with magic sometimes one of the
fatal flaws of magic is that, to do magic
well, you're showing somebody something
that you have achieved, a skill that they

(29:19):
don't have, and you're not willing to tell
them how you achieved it or what you're
doing.
So the very nature of magic pushes us away
from the audience.
It's look what I can do that you can't do,
and so the more you can share relatable
stories that make them go like, oh, he gets
it, like he knows what it's like to be me,

(29:41):
or to struggle with this thing, or to
wonder about this thing, or to be
embarrassed because you do this stupid
thing at the grocery store.
There's so much great stuff in there in
storytelling that can pull the audience
back in and open them up to when you do
something amazing.
They don't feel like it's some guy trying
to show off.
It's like, oh, this guy that I like can
also do this thing.
That made me feel something Totally makes

(30:03):
sense, and I think you know you've
mentioned the word a couple of times now
but based on what you just described of
like sharing a part of you that makes other
people at least notice it or relate to it
in some way.
And again, it takes such a big weight off
of what we're trying to do, which is that,
like, I'm not trying to share a message,
I'm just trying to get someone to connect

(30:23):
to it in some way, like you know.
So that takes a big weight off, but, as we
describe it in that way, all signs start
pointing to storytelling, because the way
to share a part of yourself that people can
relate to is through stories.
A lot of your stuff, like we sort of opened
this sort of segment with, is, you know,

(30:46):
are very story heavy and how would you?

Speaker 1 (30:51):
first of all, how does one go about writing
a story, or even more than that, Like how?

Speaker 2 (30:55):
does one go about reaching into their bag
of experiences to pull out the stories?
What advice do you have for someone trying
to do that?
Yeah, so I'll give you kind of my first of
all.
If you, if you sit down to write and you
struggle with writer's block, here's the
number one thing that has helped me never
have writer's block is I have separated my
brainstorming what I'm going to write about

(31:16):
from my actual writing time.
So I keep a list at all time on my phone.
I have two lists running.
I have joke premises, like things that I
think are funny, unique, interesting.
Well, the other thing I noticed, you know
observations.
They're not jokes, they're just thoughts or
things that either I find relatable or
interesting, and I keep them on a list on

(31:37):
my phone.
But when I sit down to write jokes, I just
grab that list and I pick one and I start
writing about that topic.
So I'm never going what am I going to write
about?
And the same thing with stories.
Like if you took five minutes today and you
said I'm just going to write down memories
that stand out to me, these are probably
things that you end up talking about in
conversation already, or things that you

(31:58):
bring up, when you're hanging out with
friends or or thoughts that you're just
constantly reminded of, and when you smell
that certain smell, it reminds you of your
grandma's house, when you you know, yeah,
just write down, basically, things that are
not stories, they're just moments that are
unique and memorable, and then, if you want
a real basic structure, sit down and pick a

(32:20):
story and go this is what was happening
right before this moment.
You know, this is what I thought about this
this moment.
You know this is this is what I thought
about this scenario, this is what my life
was like before this.
Then this is what actually occurred.
That's when you write the memory and then
this is what existed afterward.
Almost every great story has that arc of
like here's the world that existed before.

(32:40):
Then this thing happened, and now there's
this new perspective or experience, or, you
know, I thought I wanted this.
Then this happened.
Then I realized I wanted something
different.
And if you want a deep dive into that, the
moth just put out a great book this year
called how to tell a story by the moth
radio hour, and it's fantastic and it's
literally five minute stories that are.

(33:02):
Here's what I thought.
Then this happened.
Now I thought something different.
Here's what I wanted.
Then this happened.
Now I wanted something different.
So and I and I don't think that everybody
needs to do long form stories, but I do
think to be original in magic is such a big
thing we talk about I want to be original,
I want to, you know, stand out and be
different.
Well, your life is so unique and different

(33:23):
from anyone else's life, the more of your
life you can put in your show.
Originality is just going to be a list of
stories you just have to have.
You have to be actively putting these
things together and have this running list

(33:50):
and then all of a sudden, these things
start to go like that actually is a really
good one, you know, like that that one
really resonates, or that has something in
it that like I kind of feel good about
sharing or talking about, which, again,
like really just takes the weight off of
trying to do this because, again, not
everybody needs to be a storytelling

(34:11):
magician, but I think almost all of us
could do for more us in our magic and like
that's the part of this that really
resonates, which, even if it's not a story
but it's a joke or a moment or whatever,
that stuff needs to come from you and your
experiences 100%.

(34:32):
And another part of this that really helps
is when you think about writing a magic act.
You kind of think of sitting down, knowing
four or five tricks and writing, but like,
really what it is is plucking a handful of
things from the bank of things that you
know, you, you already have set aside in

(34:53):
some way and and starting to put them
together.
Yeah, yeah for sure.
I you know, charlie fry is probably the
greatest juggler.
Charlie fry is a juggler who is also the
greatest magician on earth, and I heard him
say I don't even remember who he was
talking to about this my buddy, Mark James,
told me about this first, but he said

(35:15):
Charlie Fry goes.
Someone asked him are you worried about
people stealing your act?
And he said if you're capable of stealing
my act, go for it, your act.
And he said if you're capable of stealing
my act, go for it.
Like he has, he has leaned so into skill
that for someone to steal the act they have
to develop the skill, which is brilliant.
I'm not that kind of performer.

(35:37):
But here's what I realized is, if I put, if
I don't, if I, as a magician who most
people consider magicians liars, if I just
make the choice that I'm going to tell true
stories on stage, someone could rip me off.
But they've got to be able to tell my story.
Yeah, you've got to be able to tell my
story from my childhood and I can't tell

(35:57):
you how many times people come up to me and
go like you're a really good actor.
I'm like.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
No, I just tell the truth.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
This is really what happened.
Yeah, yeah, it's like I just you know, and
yes, you can write things in a way that
make the story better and more condensed
and people can follow.
And you know, you took two people and you
combined them into one character because
they didn't need to know the difference.
But the thing is, the more you put of
yourself in your show again, the more

(36:23):
originally you'd be and the less you have
to be worried about magicians stealing your
material because it's like, well, you can't.
Someone else can tell a Bill Burr joke.
Nobody else is Bill Burr.
You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, of course, of course, and I think
again, like an act being less stealable
aside from the fact that that's like a nice
bonus just means that it is more authentic

(36:45):
and more real and more you and more of the
stuff that you do.
So I think that really resonates.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
I want to talk a little bit more about.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
You know you were talking about comedians
and how comedians do an act and then they,
they work on it and they tour with it and
they put it out and then they start fresh,
and then it's's that weird ugly thing again
for a little while, until it gets great.
you've been somebody who has released
specials both on like amazon and on youtube

(37:14):
and on things like that, which is pretty
unique in the world of magic, and I know
magicians are like afraid about like
putting their stuff out.
So like the client can watch the whole
thing and also it's just, can you talk a
little bit about, like, what the impetus is
behind this?
Like why, why are you releasing specials
like comedians do?

(37:34):
Yeah, so the first, so I always wanted to
do it.
I think we all have this idea of someday
I'm going to make something that I'm proud
of and excited about In 2019,.
I was sitting in a cafe in Nashville with
my buddy Vance, and he's a musician friend.
We see each other a couple times a year and
I'm sitting in this cafe and he asked me

(37:55):
this.
He looked at me and asked this question
that literally changed the course of my
career.
As he goes, what's one thing you know you
need to do, but you just haven't done it
and I started pitching this idea of I want
to do a comedy magic special.
It's going to be like when harry anderson
did his you know his show and, by the way,
just sorry to interrupt yeah, you literally
told us the format for a story and then you

(38:15):
did it.
You know, you told us.
Here's the beginning, here's the moment,
and now I change forever because of it.
So awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome.
That's funny, awesome, that's funny.
So, yeah, he goes, he goes.
What do you, what do you want to do that
you haven't done?
And I say I want to.
I want to make a comedy, magic special, and
here's how I'll shoot it and this is what
it will look like, while the vintage
footlights on the stage and all this.
And he listened, eating his breakfast while

(38:37):
I told the story and after I had ran it for
about 10 minutes, he goes we sat in this
exact booth a year ago and you told me this
exact thing.
So when are you going to do it?
Oh, wow.
And then I immediately started coming up
with excuses.
Well, that takes a lot of money and I don't
know how to do it.
And where would I shoot it All this?

(39:00):
And he goes no, no, no, take out your phone.
And he had me take out my phone.
And he goes when is the next time you have
a week on your calendar with nothing
happening?
And this was August of 2019.
And I looked.
I was like January Little did I know
there'd be a lot of time after that and I
said.
I said January, first week of January, I
don't have anything going on.
He's like hold on.
And he bought a ticket on Delta and he said
I'm flying to LA, I'll be there that whole
week.

(39:20):
Now you have to do it and that is why I
filmed my first special.
Wow, I didn't have the money to do it, I
didn't know how to do it, I didn't, I
didn't like have a venue and I and well, my
buddy's coming to help me I got to make it
happen.
I guess I'll find a venue.
I'd been working shows at Dynasty
Typewriter in LA this killer I loved and I

(39:41):
was like you know, I know them, maybe
they'll let me do it there.
Sure enough, I called them.
They're like, yeah, cheers.
So then I went well, who do I know that
films?
Well, I do corporate events And're at and
he does these crash edits and he's great at
getting shots and I just like the stuff and
I'm like I'm going to call him and see like,
could we figure this out?
How would how would this work and what

(40:01):
would it cost?
And and and, literally just that's.
That was how the first one got made,
because a buddy said, well, what do you
need to do?
And he called me on it when I was giving
him BS about why I couldn't do it.
Well, first of all, just a great story and
a great little lesson.
That, like that's usually.
You know, what we need is just the hey,

(40:21):
what's the thing you know you need to do?
And like, just go do it, and the great
that's you know.
That's all you needed is someone to tell
that to you.
What was that?
Or was there a result of that special that
made you say, oh man, I got to do this more.
Yeah, so, when I made the so I made the
first special January.
We filmed it in January of 2020, then the
pandemic hit and being a performer was like

(40:44):
being a dentist of teeth didn't exist and
and and.
At first I was like what have I done?
Like I spent so much money making this
thing.
However, we had gotten a deal, got got the
special put on Amazon, and so now, when
everything went virtual and I was set up,
we had gotten a deal, got the special put
on Amazon, and so now, when everything went
virtual and I was set up, I had the studio
set up already for virtual stuff.
When everything went virtual, now I had a

(41:06):
credit to my name that nobody else doing
corporate events had right.
So every corporate client, we'd ask them
hey, how did you make the decision of who
to go with?
Well, all these guys do comedy, all these
guys do magic, all these guys work the
Magic Castle.
This one has a special on Amazon.

(41:27):
So, having that credit, I did not that
Amazon deal.
I did not make my money back from having
that.
I made it back in booking corporate events
at a higher rate, and at a higher more
consistently, because it was like, oh, it's

(41:47):
a no brainer, every client is just paranoid
that they're going to book something that
doesn't work, of course.
And now, not only is it like, well, he's
got a show on Amazon, clearly it must be
good.
But now that they can watch an entire hour
of what I do and there's no question about
it, and I think something clicked there
where I realized most of my life as a
magician has been like I don't want to put

(42:07):
material out, I don't want people stealing
it, I don't want to burn it for the clients
and the audience.
But then I realized it's like being a band
that's really good that never puts out an
album and then being mad that nobody knows
about you.
Yeah, like if somebody loves you as a
corporate performer and they tell their,
they want to tell their friends, well, how

(42:28):
can I see him?
I guess you gotta wait till he shows up at
your conference.
Like there's most magicians who we know of
have zero digital footprint as far as like
actually.
And so what do we do?
We film videos of doing close-up magic when
we're a stage guy.
Everything but the thing.
Yeah, yeah and so I was just like, oh.

(42:49):
And yet my comedian friends were like, hey,
here's me doing what I do.
Yeah, we'll fall in love with that.
They buy a ticket to a show.
So I just went, that's the new game plan.
And also, once I I put that out, I was like,
well, I have to assume.
I mean, obviously, no, not everyone has
seen it, but I have to assume, if someone
books me, that they had watched it.

(43:09):
Yeah, so now I have to do different things.
And last week I was in.
I was in Kansas doing a keynote at night
and I had agreed to go to there's a sponsor
for this program that was happening.
So I was going to go to the company that
was sponsoring this show that I was doing
at night and I thought, well, I'm doing the
new act, I'll do some old stuff for the
client during the day.
And I walked in and they had 30 of their

(43:31):
staff in the conference room eating lunch,
watching my special on YouTube and I went
okay, great, got to do something different,
but that has been the biggest breakthrough
as of late is like oh, I did this because
it was something I wanted to do, make a
special.
And then I went well, this is the best
advertising ever.

(43:52):
Like.
Most of us spend so much time explaining
what we would do if someone hired us, but
now, when people call to book me, I don't
have to sell them on anything.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
They're calling.
They already saw it Exactly.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Exactly.
That's awesome and again, it is such head
and shoulders above what magicians tend to
do, what magicians tend to do and like.
Again, it's so funny that the business
model of magicians is like you know, it's a
mystery what I possibly do on that stage,
like people book me because either they saw

(44:27):
me or they're taking a gamble, and like a
promo video goes so far, but not as far as
watching you do your act.
But of course it requires a level of
archistry and discipline to put out an act
and then basically, throw it all out and

(44:47):
start again halfway through your career and
or whatever, and then can you?
I guess it's a little bit different because
you were, you know, in COVID like we all
kind of invented a new act in COVID.
But can you talk about, like, what that
ugly moment is like when the act is out and
it's out on YouTube and now you're like

(45:07):
start again, like what do you do there?

Speaker 1 (45:10):
How do you start?
Is there already, like all these tricks and
ideas and stories percolating?

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Or are you just like staring in front of a
blank google doc and going like what now?
Yeah, so I it's terrifying number one, but
I always am writing.
So I'm writing things now that I'm not
doing right now like I, I just I in 2020.
I also during covid, I had always wanted to
write a book and I thought about what my
buddy van said there well, I wanted a
special.
And then I just said I was going to do it.
And so I wrote my first book during COVID.
But the only way that happened is I said,

(45:43):
okay, I'm going to sit down.
I know, if I try to do this sometime during
the day, something's going to distract me
or the family's going to need me.
Things are broken in the house and I got to
fix something.
So when is my uninterrupted time?
And I went.
Well, nobody is like up and awake till
eight o'clock in the morning around here.

(46:04):
I'm going to wake up at five every single
morning and I'm going to sit in a little.
I'm in a tough shit in my backyard.
It's my little home office.
I'm going to sit in there for three hours
every day and I either write 1500 words or
I have to sit in the chair.
If I sit in the chair for three hours and
only get five words on the page, that still
counts.
I'm going to.
I'm not going to judge that, but that's how
the book got written.

(46:25):
And it's the same thing with writing
material for a show.
I'm just always writing ideas and working
on stuff, knowing that what I'm doing on
stage right now is not going to be what I'm
doing two years from now.
So when I filmed the new special that came
out Enjoy the Ride that's on YouTube when

(46:46):
that came out, we had filmed it six months
earlier and by the time it came out, I had
already been rotating bits into the show.
So half the show was already new.
And then, when it came out, I just slowly
started.
And what's great is I'm still like for
corporates, I do old stuff.
Like there's just certain routines.
It's like this is going to be great for

(47:06):
this keynote or this perfect for the theme
of this event.
So it's not like you're burning it forever.
It's okay.
Like if your act has six tricks and one of
them is in a special that people may or may
not have seen.
Like it's okay.
Like you know, it's not the end of the
world.
Totally, totally, yeah.
But if you, but if you do the exact same

(47:26):
acts and people love it and they go, let's,
I want to bring a friend to see him the
next time he comes to town and then they
see it, they'll enjoy it seeing it again,
but they won't buy a ticket after that.
You know they're not going to come back.
So, yeah, I think, just committing yourself,
giving yourself deadlines and treating the
writing as a job, like no one sees that
stuff, that's you literally waking up and

(47:47):
going, hey, all right, I get on a plane
tomorrow.
Today I'm going to spend three hours
writing.
But it's funny what you just said about you
know doing that same stuff.
I heard this quote from maybe was jimmy
carr, I'm not sure, but I thought it was
brilliant.
He said if you're a band and someone buys a
ticket to your concert and you don't play

(48:07):
the hit, they'll never come back.
If you're a comedian and they go and you
say the jokes they already know they'll
never come back.
So it's like the exact opposites.
You know which is like comedians, like
you're not going to surprise me with this,
laugh a second time, you know.
But the band is like we're coming to see
the song, like play the song, you know.
So just funny the way our industry is.

(48:31):
I've had friends.
I mean I've argued with buddies who have
been like well, magic's harder than writing
jokes.
I'm like, no, it's not Like we wake up
every day and Vanishing Ink and Penguin are
like.
Here's 12 new ideas.
Yeah yeah, yeah.
So I just think there's so much great magic
out there, why not make?
Even if you're like, hey, I don't want to

(48:51):
burn my act, what if you created stuff just
to put online?
That is, you know, a lot of us are upset
about like exposure on the internet.
People are watching it because they like
magic, like make something that scratches
that itch, that's better.
And then you know there's side benefits of
it.

(49:12):
My last three keynotes I booked were not
because I had a great website or a demo
video.
It's because people found me on Instagram
and they went oh here, this guy does stuff
that's entertaining and he says stuff that
matters.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
What if we had him at our conference let's
talk about that because you have at least
one very, very viral video that has popped
off I'm sure others as well, but one that
is like used and stolen and this and that
it's.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
it is everywhere you know on the internet
and it's a fantastic piece of magic and a
fantastic story.
And are you, is that like a?
Hey everyone, you should try to make a
video of your act go viral.
Is that something?
Or is it just happened or like, can you
talk a bit sort of about that?
So, first of all, I mean and I do think

(50:03):
that's a fun routine but I'm also like how,
why did that one, why is that the thing
that popped up?
And this goes back to like you can't.
Nobody knows what's going to be successful.
Nobody knows Like the Rock is the number
one movie star in the world and he's having
to go do podcasts and TV shows right now
because he doesn't know if anyone's going
to come to his new movie.

(50:24):
Nobody knows what people are going to care
about.
Here's what we do know If you don't put
anything out, nothing ever happens.
So when I filmed my first special and we
put it on Amazon, that was great and it had
like cachet to it and it did really well,
especially during COVID.
But nobody can see those numbers.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
It's not.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Like you put it on YouTube and everyone can
see how many watch hours it's got, you know.
So when I put the second one out on YouTube,
I was a nervous wreck Cause I'm like, oh
man, is this like a bad idea?
But I, I just thought, you know, not

(51:04):
everyone has Amazon, Not everyone has
Netflix.
Everybody can access YouTube all over the
world, and so I thought that distribution
is a good idea and I put it out and for the
first couple of weeks it had like 1200
views and I was like, golly man, like
you're doing the math of how much money you
paid per view.
Yeah, and then I was.
I was bummed for a minute and I was like,

(51:24):
no, like you can't judge what happens with
a project.
You just got to make something, put it out
and make something else.
And then I decided to clip up the special
and put it on Instagram.
And I was bored one day on a flight and I
made that video and I posted it right
before I got on a flight for six hours and
when I landed it had like almost a million

(51:45):
views and I was like what the heck?
And now, yeah, like you said, it's been
stolen and all this stuff.
And at first I was all upset oh, people are
stealing my video.
And then I was like, wait, no, they're
advertising my special.
So I just started messaging these guys to
be like hey, I'm so glad you're making
money off of this.
Could you just put go watch, Enjoy the Ride

(52:05):
by Taylor Hughes on YouTube.
And that all of a sudden, now the special's
got a bunch of views on YouTube, which is
great.
And again, you know, the more eyes on it
the better, which is great.
And again, the more eyes on it the better.
But then also from a marketing perspective,
for years I was the guy who was like I
don't want to put stuff on social.
It's the weird game and all of this.

(52:25):
Think about this you spend a ton of money
making a demo video, you send it out, you
hope that the client watches it, you hope
they like it enough to show it to the rest
of the people, you hope those people like
it, and then you hope that the decision
makers are willing to take the risk to pay
you your rate to come out.
And the whole time the event planner is
hoping are other people going to like this?

(52:46):
Or you can put a video on Instagram and
they go.
Oh my gosh, look how many people like this.
Now you've taken the risk away from them
because they can at least point to that.
If you came and fell on your face, at least
they can point to like dude, this guy's got
like.
You know, hundreds of thousands of people
sharing this.
People like it.

(53:07):
Yeah, People like it, and it takes the
pressure off the client from it.
So, from a so from a booking standpoint for
corporate events, I think it's great.
From a, if you're trying to sell tickets in
a theater Half-Might's Famous is a
four-walling, a venue selling tickets in a
town I'm not a part of and helping people
come out, You're going to have a small
percentage of people that are in that city,

(53:28):
that saw you online, but what you're really
going to have is people see, oh, there's a
magic show.
Then they go check out your Instagram or
your YouTube and they go oh, other people
like this, I might like it too and they buy
it to get.
I just think.

(53:49):
I think magicians, it's not too late to do
it.
Like all of this, like social media
following for me popped off in the last
year, but it's not, it's not too late to do
it.
You just have to put stuff out there.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
I think it's really quite motivational
about you know how to get seen and how to
get noticed.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
I want to talk about the four walling thing,
because you know, when you rent the theater
in a city that doesn't know you and all of
a sudden you put down the $2,000, the
$1,500 or whatever and then tickets trickle
in, or they?
don't.
And then you're like okay, just like side
level, are you posting and tagging the city?

(54:28):
Are you running ads?
Do you have promoters?
Are you just crossing your fingers and
praying?
What does it look like after you rent a
theater and put up the poster to four wall?
A city, I mean there's.
I think if you're in a city and you're
going to pick a city and do it, there's
different strategy.
You know you can really dial in Facebook

(54:49):
ads to target that area.
If you're, if you're doing one nighters,
that becomes really challenging and what
you need to do is you need to have some
good material to point people back to.
So I again I think you've got to have
either a killer video of what your show is
or you know something on social to point
people back to, so that when they do see an

(55:10):
ad they go and look at that.
I think and again, I, all my ideas are
borrowed from comedian friends.
So I have a friend, dave Nihill.
My ideas are borrowed from comedian friends.
So I have a friend, dave Nihill, who's a
great comedian.
We do Comedy Magic Club here a lot in LA
and I watched him start four walling shows
about three or four years ago and I asked

(55:31):
him.
One day I was at the club.
I was like, look, I'm just renting rooms,
like I'm literally finding improv theaters
that are closed on a Wednesday.
I'm finding comedy clubs that want to add
us, you know, a show on a Sunday night,
like.
But I feel like this is weird, like I feel
like I'm faking it or something Like is
this weird?
I was asking him this a year ago and he

(55:52):
goes dude, that's how everybody does it.
That is how the entire business works.
Every comedian that you see, even if they
got a promoter, the promoter's reaching out
to venues, they're booking the venues and
they're promoting and selling tickets.
What he was doing is he would piggyback
those with dates that actually made sense

(56:13):
and I started doing that so long-winded way
of saying it.
Basically, what I'll do is I get booked for
a corporate.
I don't promote my corporate stuff at all
on social media.
I've never posted like hey, here I am in
the ballroom about to do the thing.
I'm doing it every week, but I'm not
posting about it, because I have found that
posting that you have a platform outside of

(56:34):
the corporate market is all you need to
book the corporate market.
But it also works against you If people
want to come see you at a comedy club
they're like this guy's doing like the
tractor convention, why would he come see
you?
So what I started doing is going like, okay,
great, I'm going to Pittsburgh to do a
corporate event on a Wednesday night.
They're not advertising that except

(56:55):
in-house to their people.
Right, I'm not advertising it.
It's not taking away from them if on
Thursday I put up a show in a comedy club
in Pittsburgh.
So I let the corporate client book me,
bring me out, I do the show for them.
I'm already in town, my travel's 90%
covered.
I book another night at a hotel and now I
can test run a market.

(57:17):
That is.
You know, I don't know if people are going
to come or not.
So I would say, if you're interested in
doing touring type shows, try to anchor it
either with a corporate event, or sometimes
I'll book a performing arts center that'll
say we'll give you your fee to come out for
the night, we'll sell tickets, We'll kind
of take that on.
And then you know, okay, I got a guarantee

(57:37):
on Friday night at this event I'll go, you
know, two hours drive from there and try
another city in a little 50, 60 seater and
just see what happens and the only way to
know is just to try it.
And when you four wall a theater in
Pittsburgh the day before, a corporate show,
are you running?

Speaker 1 (57:55):
ads.
Are you hoping that they promote it?
Are you doing?

Speaker 2 (57:58):
all the above.
Are you like?
What does it look like to get butts in
seats in a city of people that don't know
you?
So it's different depending on are you
working with?
Like if you're at a performing arts venue
and they've got a mailing list, great,
they're going to fill it up with people.
Yeah, if you're just booking a space, yeah,

(58:18):
I do.
I do targeted ads through Facebook and
Instagram and then I work with the venue to
go what?
What avenues do you have in the city to get
the word out?
You know, if it's um, if it's an, a lot of
times they'll use like a little improv
theater and they've got a community on
Facebook of improvisers that are in the
area looking for stuff to do.
You know they want to come see things that
are different, and so I would just reach

(58:40):
out to basically find anybody who I might
know in the area.
The other thing is your mailing list.
If you're not growing a mailing list as a
performer and tagging the city in which
those people followed you, it's a great
thing, those people followed you.
It's a great thing, because now, if I go to

(59:01):
Phoenix, I know I got 30 people on my
mailing list who have seen me in person who
said I want to stay in touch that live in
this area.
So you pick that area and you email those
people and you say, hey, I'm coming out on
this day.
Would you be able to bring some folks?
I'd love to comp you if you could bring
somebody with you.
And now you're just starting to build a
larger fan base through your app.
Awesome, yeah, it's great.
It's great that you know the actual tool

(59:24):
belt of stuff is mailing list ads venue,
and then you know the killer one.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
That goes back to what you're just talking
about.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
It's like having the creative to give to
them and to run ads against so that people
like it.
Because one of the things that you've said
a few times on here which I think is
important is that you know you run an ad to
a city or you have a video go viral or
whatever.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
People are really nuanced, so some people
just click and add a buy ticket, but most
people sniff your butt a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
They go, they check out the page, they look
at some videos they type you into.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Google.
They type you into YouTube.
They see what they can find before they go.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Shell out $30 to go watch a show and that
material does make a really big difference
in people deciding that they want to come
out and see your show or they want to tell
their friends or whatever the case may be.
Yeah for sure, love it and it is.
I mean, it is a weird part of the business.

(01:00:26):
It's trial and error.
I mean I did a run recently where I did
three.
I did in a weekend.
I did three different states that were all
within like a two hour drive.
One of them sold out, 250 seats instantly
packed out, great.
The next night had like 37 people in a
little tiny venue.
The show was great, people had a good time.
It becomes marketing but you just you don't

(01:00:48):
know, and if it's not, if it doesn't exist,
if you don't have things going on, that
when you do get that pop on social media
and people go, we want to see this guy, but
you don't have any dates on the calendar,
it becomes a challenge.
Awesome, really, really clear.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
The last thing I want to ask you about
before we get to wrap up, and then a couple
of cool ways people can find you is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
You know, you really stood out to me at
Magic Live during that youth show for your
ability to emcee, which is not easy.
It's not easy for many reasons.
You're generally not doing an act.
Maybe you're doing a trick or something,
but you're not doing an act.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
You have to learn about the people and say
things about them, and you have to hold an
audience in the in-between, which Magic?

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
can sometimes be a long time as they're
setting up the whole stage.
Or and in other industries as well,
obviously there's a million things to talk
about.
But what kind of advice do you have for a
magician who wants to get into emceeing,
because we, like, have a lot of the right
skill sets but but don't have any
information on how to do it?

(01:01:57):
What kind of tips do you have for magicians?
Yeah, I would say MCN is the hardest show
to book and the easiest show to rebook,
because nobody thinks when they're doing
their checklist for a corporate event, they
go.
We got to have food, we got to have some
tablecloths, we got to have an entertainer,
we got to have some tablecloths, we got to
have an entertainer, we got to have some

(01:02:19):
speakers.
Nobody thinks who's doing the transitions.
But when you think about great events
you've been to those events they're great,
not because of the individual elements but
because of the transitions.
The transitions are tight, they're smooth.
If things are on time, if it keeps flowing,
people leave and go it's great.
So I think emceeing is one of the greatest

(01:02:40):
tools for a magician who wants to add a
secondary market.
You have a client who calls you will book
you for a show, you can immediately upsell
them to do an emcee for them and now, once
they've had you do that and it goes well,
they're going to want you to do that every
single time.
So I think I think I will say that I think
emceeing is a untapped market that

(01:03:02):
magicians could easily jump into.
The biggest tip and I already mentioned it
a little bit is the transitions is
transitions, and so when you look at the
schedule of an event and you go great, this

(01:03:22):
person's on stage, then they're going to
show a video, then I'm coming up and then
we're doing this other activity.
Most people will focus on what am I doing
in the middle?
And what you need to do is go what is this
when it's being handed off to me?
What environment are we in and where are we
going?
After that and your job, you will get
booked over and over if you can bridge that
gap.
So if I'm doing a fundraiser for a cancer

(01:03:45):
charity and they're going to show a video,
that is really touching, but really I mean
it's sad, it's heavy, right, it's heavy
right, and I know that I'm going to come up
and three minutes later they have to go to
lunch and not feel bad talking about the
movie they just saw or the ball game, like
you need to do something in that moment to

(01:04:06):
honor the moment you're in, you know, not
just abruptly go like and here's a trick,
you know, but like you got three minutes to
honor that moment and then either tell a
story, tell a joke or do a trick that
transitions to the point where now they've
been given permission to now go into a
different moment.
That's, that is the key of being a great

(01:04:27):
emcee.
And the other thing, too, would be like
every story you have, every joke, you have
every trick you have create different
versions of it.
So here's what that trick looks like if
I've got two minutes to do it.
Here's if I got five minutes to do it.
Here's if I got 10 minutes to do it.
And knowing that in your head, because they
might, on a whim, go hey, we had a virtual

(01:04:49):
speaker that you know their connection is
bad.
Go, kill five minutes.
Yeah, you got to know I've got this toolkit
of things ready to go at a whim.
Yeah, that's awesome.
Those are kind of the big and I think you
know the reason why you did and do such a
good job at it is that it shows that you

(01:05:10):
know you're not getting off, that you're
not stepping on stage between the act and
being like.
What do I say now about that?
Like you wrote it, you know, like and
that's what this comes down to is like.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
The advice is really the the framing of it,
which is you got to know where you're
coming from and going to and what goes in
the middle, but like, yeah, then you have
to have to write it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:34):
You know, like that, yeah, that's the juicy
part is it'd be adaptable too.
Yeah, yeah, right, like you know where
we're gonna land the plane, but if the
speaker goes off beforehand, it is
something weird.
It's like recalculating driving directions.
It's like great, I thought we were gonna be
here, but now we're way over here.
I still have to make sure we land the plane

(01:05:54):
in this spot and and so, yeah, you write it
ahead of time, but then you're also paying
attention and like fully engaged to know
what is really being handed to me.
Yep, and love it.
Yeah, and it's so helpful because that's
the.
You know, a lot of us musicians have those
like improv-y skills, but again, like

(01:06:15):
having a script and an act and whatever
it's what's laid upon.
You know the stuff that you already have.
We are getting towards the end of the
podcast.
There's a couple of questions that I ask
people each time, and then last thing that
I'd love to chat about.
The first is, you know, just sort of
looking at modern magic, what's one thing
you like about the world of magic right now
and one thing that you don't like?

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
about the world of magic right now, and one
thing that you don't like in the world of
magic right now.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Oh, my goodness.
One thing I like a lot about magic right
now I see a lot of likable mentalism lately
and I don't mean to say that in a rude way,
but I feel like you know I've always joked
that mentalism, you know, on its onset, is
take magic, subtract likability and add
procedure and I see I'm I'm noticing a lot

(01:07:01):
of people do mentalism in a way that
doesn't push people away but it's like kind
of they're getting creative about how they
frame it.
I saw my buddy, david Stryker, in the
castle last night and he is doing some
things in his act that are just phenomenal
and you want you don't walk out of there
going like what's going on?
What did I just experience?

(01:07:21):
You're just like in it from the get-go.
The way he frames it, it's so good.
So, yeah, so I'm digging that I've never
really gotten into mentalism.
I'm starting to play with some stuff a
little bit more with that.
I like that.
What do I not like about magic?
I feel like we talked about a lot of what I
don't like about magic.
I think so much of magic just stops at

(01:07:43):
what's good enough and the very nature of
magic.
A really bad magic trick can still be
amazing, and so I think there's a lot of
performers that think they're killing it
because they're doing something that's
interesting, but they're missing the point
of why we do it in the first place.

(01:08:03):
So I just I think magic could benefit from
some more thoughtfulness, some more
thinking.
Yeah, that's awesome.
I love those both.
The next is the endless chain, so in order
to keep the podcast going on for eternity,
each guest is asked to recommend another
guest.
That would be a really good fit for this
kind of conversation.
There is two catches.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
The first catch is that I have not
interviewed them already.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
And the second catch is that you have to be
able to put us in contact.

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
Who comes to mind for this kind of
conversation that you think would be great?

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
okay.
So I mean, this is gonna be tough, because
who do you leave out?
Because I've got a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
I really you can name a few all good, I
will.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
I will tell you.
Uh, I think mark james out of the uk.
I don't know if you know, amazing guy,
amazing human, amazing magician, and I've
never interviewed him, so already I got you.
You did nail it.
Oh my gosh, he's coming out in a couple of
weeks.
We were doing the castle the same week
together.
His family's going to come out and stay
with us beforehand.
But that guy, that guy, if you name any

(01:09:06):
trick, he knows everything that's ever been
done with it.
And here's five new ideas to look at it
Like he's a beast.
So, mark out of the UK, and then my buddy,
chipper Lowell.
Have you talked to Chipper out here before?
I haven't spoken to him, but I saw him at
the castle and I just I watched the show
twice.
I thought he was unreal, super funny, super

(01:09:26):
entertaining.
What a pro.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
I.
He was a highlight for me.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Another really great thing.
He directed my solo show, the Last Sermon,
and he is just such a brilliant thinker
about magic and grew up in the circus so he
has like a ton of wild experiences.
His dad was a Ringling Brothers clown, His
mom was an aerialist and he literally grew
up on the circus train, so he's got a lot

(01:09:50):
of just knowledge about the industry as a
whole and has done everything from theme
parks to corporates to you know his own
theater show, so he'd be another great
person to be Right.
Those are both fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
The last thing is not only where people can
find you, but also you've got a bunch of
stuff for not only magicians but non
magicians alike.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
You've got some books, some courses.
Do you want to quickly tell us what they
are and where people can find them?
Sure, courses I've had so many
conversations with friends around a couple
of topics.
One is emceeing, one is just public
speaking tips on getting better on public
speaking and storytelling, and then the
other is on self-publishing books, because

(01:10:34):
I've done that a couple of times now and so
I filmed a couple of you know, for lack of
a better name masterclasses around those
topics, and so those are at
learnwithtaylorcom.
Cool, and we can.
You and I can come up with a catchy code
name, but I'll make a code for the
listeners here.
What word should we use?
I would say discourse, but it's kind of

(01:10:55):
hard to spell, so just do Jonah J-O-N-A-H.
I think that's easy.
Yep, so if you use Jonah over there, you'll
get a crazy deal.
We'll make it something that's like 75% off
or something like that.
Awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Dude, that's wicked.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
And then I've got a couple yeah, I got a
couple of specials YouTube.
I'd love it if you guys wanted to take a
look at those.
On Instagram and social.
I'm at magic storyteller and my very
cryptic email if I can ever be of help to
you in any way is taylor at taylorhughescom.
You would have never guessed it, but yeah,
I just I love talking about magic.
I love seeing people do cool stuff and I

(01:11:32):
don't usually have answers, but I tend to
know people who do.
So, yeah, that is wicked.
Taylor, thanks so much for being on this
and answering questions and walking us
through.
Not only you know your wacky, wild world of
magic and storytelling and all that, but
you know all the advice and all the stuff
that you learned the hard way from doing it.
I think this stuff is amazing and helpful

(01:11:53):
and appreciative and hopefully people were
informed and affected.
You know by it the way that I was, so I
appreciate it.
Thank you so so much for being here and, of
course, big thank you everybody for tuning
in and listening.
Thanks so much for being here and I will
see you next.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
Thursday Ciao, my friends.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
Well, there you have it.
I hope you learned something.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
I hope you have it.
I hope you learned something, I hope you
liked it and I hope that you share it and
tell the world.
Recently, a couple of these episodes have
popped up on Magic Facebook pages and
people have really enjoyed it and you know
what?
It helped more people find out about this
thing and learn some amazing tips from some
amazing people.
So if you want other people to be awesome,

(01:12:40):
other magicians, and you wanna help spread
the word about a free, awesome resource,
tell one person about this podcast and it
would mean the world to me and even more to
your fellow magician.
Of course, if you want some help growing
your business and booking epic gigs, you
know where to find me magic at torontomag,
toronto magic companycom.
Send me an email and we will see if I can
help.

(01:13:01):
Thanks so much for being here and I will
see you next Thursday.
Ciao.