The Heart of Magic With Dustin Tavella

Join us as we sit down with the incredibly talented Dustin Tavella, winner of the 2021 season of America's Got Talent.

The post The Heart of Magic With Dustin Tavella appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my friends, and welcome to a brand
new episode of Discourse in Magic.
My name is Jonah Babbins and in this
episode, we sit down with Dustin Tavella.
As you probably possibly might know, dustin
Tavella won the 2021 season of America's
Got Talent, and for good reason.
Not only is his magic strong, but he

(00:21):
performs with a lot of soul.
He's got storytelling in the magic, he's
got unbelievable miracles and he's so sweet
and awesome and likable and his story is
even more incredible.
So in this episode, you're gonna hear not
only about how he did it, but also how he
made an amazing show that he's doing right
now, as well as more behind the scenes,
about what makes his magic unique and how

(00:42):
you can implement some storytelling and
messages into your magic without it being
weird or corny.
Dustin is the king of amazing storytelling
and messages in his magic, and you're going
to learn as much from this episode as I did
so here.
It is a wonderful episode with the one and
only Dustin Tavella.

(01:11):
Hello, my friends, and welcome to a brand
new episode of Discourse in Magic.
My name is Jonah Babins and we are here
with the one and only Dustin Tavella.
Dustin, how are you?
What's up, man?
Thank you for having me on.
This is awesome.
I am so excited to chat with you,
especially after having seen your show in
Branson and just loved it and loved all the
stuff you've been up to for a while.
So excited to get into all of it.

(01:32):
Let's start sort of at the very beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
How did you even get started in magic.
Yeah, actually it's funny.
I feel like my story oftentimes either
inspires people or just makes them.
So you know, when I was young, like any kid
loved magic.
You know, got a little magic kit with the
plastic toys and all these things.
Yeah, but there was a flea market buy.
I asked my uncle.
He got me like my first professional magic
trick.
He got me scotch and soda.

(01:57):
It was like real clean.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
It was made out of metal.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, and I was like like man, I didn't
even know this was a thing, I didn't know
you could like buy magic tricks, like real
magic tricks.
And at this point I was like, you know, 10
years old and I just kind of got obsessed.
I went back and like would get more stuff
from this magic shop.
I got the change bag and the coloring book
and the old school like zombie ball you
know, like the floating silver ball thing,

(02:21):
and these kinds of things.
Then I started I'll dress'll dress up like
a clown, I'll twist balloons and do
birthday parties.
And it was wild because I'm like this
little 10-year-old, 11-year-old kid doing
birthday parties.
And people were like, oh, it's a kid clown,
which now sounds horrifying.
I was young People weren't as scared of
clowns then.
But anyways, I would do things for banks
and grocery stores and then when I was like

(02:42):
13, I feel like it was like I don't know.
I got way more self-conscious of like being
a clown in front of my friends because it's
like not cool or something.
And so I kind of just like laid it down and
when I stopped doing the clown stuff, I
stopped doing magic stuff too, because for
some reason I was never like I can do magic,
just not dress like a clown.
And so I just like stopped altogether and

(03:03):
then never really looked back.
Man, I mean, I through high school was
doing music stuff.
After high school we're doing music stuff.
I was a music artist for a while.
I was producing and writing.
I had a bunch of my own music, but I was
also producing and writing for other people,
for television and film, and doing video
editing stuff.
And really it's crazy, man, we were, we
were doing some music stuff.

(03:24):
And then my wife and I, along my sister,
had started this homeless ministry in LA
and through that like met this dude who was
a realtor and did magic on the side and I
was at a point of like kind of over the
music career and the way that I don't know
I just I'm not a big fan of like how much
social media kind of took over.
Music was like I wasn't.
I wasn't even making music anymore.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
I was just trying to post things on
Instagram, Go viral and like yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, yeah, and it was just, and so,
anyways, I was with him one day at a coffee
shop and he busted out like a deck of cards
and some coins and all of a sudden it was
like there's all these people gathered
around, different ages, different skin
colors, and this was the reason I started.

(04:06):
I love people, I love creating connection,
which is why I think the social media stuff
burnt me out a little bit and I just saw
this dude with like no influence and no
platform, creating an experience for people
who normally wouldn't be engaging at all,
and it was like a bombing off in my heart,
dude, and I was like this is just.
I remember when I was a kid I used to love
magic, like I need to do this, and I was
like watching him, I I feel like I could do
this.
I've been in the entertainment world enough.
I know how to put stuff together.

(04:27):
And so I called my mom and had her like
send out all my old magic tricks from up in
the attic.
Oh my gosh.
And it was crazy because around that time I
had kind of stepped back from my music
career and we were doing the homeless stuff.
I was catching up with a friend who had
just done a movie.
Yeah, she had just done a movie with Tyra
Banks, who was hosting AGT at the time, and
my wife, the one day, was on a run and she
came back she said, I don't know why I was

(04:47):
running and I was just kind of praying and
thinking and she's like I feel like you're
going to win America's Got Talent.
And I was like that's hilarious, because
you know, it's America's Got Talent, not
America's Got.
Four Days of Experience, oh my God.
And but anyways, I was telling my friend
this and she was like, oh, you should send
me some stuff.
I'll show it to Tyra you know, I'm having
lunch with her in a couple days and I was
like, oh cool.

(05:08):
And I hung up the phone and realized I
didn't have anything to send Tyra back.
I had been doing music for like a week, or
magic for like a week, and so, anyways, I
made a little fake video and we can talk
about that later.
I didn't get on that season or the next
season, and then the third year is the year
that I won.
So it had only been like a two year span
that I had been doing magic From getting

(05:28):
back into it to season 16.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
What year was that?
2021.
2021.
Wow, so you've, like, you got back in the
game, like at COVID, like you know.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Basically yeah, and that's what was crazy
too was like when I was like like you know,
at 23.
Yeah, basically yeah, and that's what was
crazy too was like when I was like man, we
should just start doing magic shows and
maybe we should focus on this.
The pandemic hit and so we couldn't do any
shows, which made me feel even that much
more unprepared.
But it is one of the things that I'm
passionate.
The reason I fell in love with magic is
because of that thing it does to a person,
right, the hope or the childlikeness that

(06:03):
it instills in a person.
And we've always been passionate about
wanting to inspire people and instill hope
in people and to see this thing bring
people to a place of wonder and to know
that, like to bring them to a childlike
place, to be able to share stories.
Really, I feel like like even right now, I
don't feel like I'm super passionate about
magic.
I feel like I'm passionate about connecting
with people and magic is like a fun visual

(06:26):
thing to add to stories, to just get people
like I don't know, man, it's once, once we
started doing stuff, I just never looked
back, bro.
I was like it's been magic always, every
day, I know awesome okay, so let's first of
all.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
There's so many things in there that I want
to talk about, but let's get into it and
talk for a minute about music first of all.
Like what were you like?
I know you did a lot of different things in
music, but like what were you doing most
prominently in the music space?
Because it seems like things were working
pretty well in music.
It's not like you were playing a guitar on
the street corner or anything like you were.

(07:01):
You were doing some work for some important
people.
What did that look like?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
yeah, so you know, I, while I was in LA,
got to know a lot of producers and stuff
like this work with some guys that work
within radio, and so for me as an artist,
we had songs that we were, you know,
pushing at radio and we worked alongside
like ESPN and things like this uh, I did a
song for the 100th anniversary of the Rose
Bowl and they're just cool opportunities
like this.
I did a song for the 100th anniversary of

(07:25):
the Rose Bowl and there's just cool
opportunities like this.
But also, just from being there, I got to
know other artists and for me, I think the
thing that didn't work for me as an artist
was I just love creating and so I
personally feel like I never found my style
right.
Like I love the acoustic stuff, I love hip
hop stuff, I love urban stuff, I love pop
stuff, I love even some like ukulele beach
stuff sometimes, and what was it?

(07:47):
It was a bad thing for me as an artist
because I never really found my style.
But also from a production standpoint, it
was great because you know, like some
company calls and they need some some
ukulele music to you're like sure I can do
that yeah and then, like some rapper calls
and they want some hip-hop beat, they want
some, they want like a hook for their song.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
But is that what you did in music looked
like?
Is you were basically like producing and
making the actual soundtracks for different
types of things, from ESPN to whatever?
Is that kind of what you were doing in
music?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, for sure, within again, within music,
and I mean within television and commercial
stuff and then.
But I was also recording stuff as my for
myself and like, and there were some spots
in the country where we had songs that did
fairly well.
Randomly, I had a number one music video on
CMT.
I mean I don't do country music but we we
did like a, like a it was like a club song

(08:40):
with like a bit of like this country sound
and so.
So, yeah, just some random stuff like that.
And it was cool because we did have some
friends who were very successful and then
we had some people who we knew who were
producing music for a long time and they
were, you know, older and still doing like
stay up till six in the morning and the
industry hustle.
And I think that was when I kind of just
got to a place where I'm like I had a lot

(09:00):
of very successful friends and I'm like I
don't know that they seem super fulfilled.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
And I see the people who are still trying
to make it and I'm like that's what I'm
going to be in like 20 years, and I don't
know if I want to do that either.
Like either end of the spectrum stopped
being appealing to me.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
It's so it's so interesting to be in an
industry and doing what other people would
consider successful, and just looking down
at what you're doing and being like you
know, I kind of see what the rest of this
path looks like and like it ain't right.
You know, like this isn't what I want to be
doing, so that's a really interesting
moment.
I'd love to, in the sort of transition away

(09:34):
from talking about music, I'd love to know,
like you know, obviously there are two very
different art forms music and magic but you
are quite unique in not only being someone
who does both there are some people that
have done both but someone that has had,
has been in the industry of both of those

(09:55):
things at like the fullest version of what
that means.
I mean.
In music there's people calling on you for
things, and magic you're doing theater
shows and corporate shows and AGT and
whatever, like what.
What did you learn about magic from music?
What's similar or different about those
things, like for you?

Speaker 2 (10:09):
So one thing you know, obviously with music
it's one of those things that it's just a
way to connect with people, right?
Like you put on a song there's just some
songs that just pull the little kid out of
the person.
Like you play a song and it's just like you
see people connecting in that way and I
think, well, one thing so this is one of
the greatest like parallels that I make
that, I think, really taught me a lot.
It's just stepping into magic stuff in

(10:30):
music.
I work with a lot of people who are amazing
musicians.
Like they know all about music theory, they
know all like the technical scale.
Then, like this, they just know all the
things.
And they listen to pop music and they're
like like this is stupid, it's not even
real music, it's all electronic, it's not
even real instruments, right, and they get
so mad and those people often miss the

(10:52):
reason that those songs connect with people.
There's something about the simplicity,
there's something about the repetition.
There's something about pop music.
It's why it's called pop music.
It connects with popular culture, right it?
It's why it's called pop music.
It connects with the look it's like with
popular culture, right.
It connects with what people and and look,
it's not to discredit those guys skills and
their talents and their ability to create
Something that musically is better, but but

(11:15):
also there's just something about
understanding your audience.
And Because I was kind of doing both I was
doing more musical stuff but also creating
pop stuff I just learned very quickly the
idea of kind of dying to yourself and I'm
like, oh, this guitar solo would sound sick
here, right, but it's like, but it doesn't,
it doesn't fit, it doesn't, there's not.
This isn't a time to just show off.

(11:35):
And so when I started doing magic, it was
crazy because I found myself in so many
similar conversations where I would be like
I'm just trying to get just the perfect
plum right and trying to do this and I have
huge windows in my fingers and I'm like
everyone can see when I palm a card.
I'm never going to be a good magician and I
was just.
I just felt like guilty for not being

(11:55):
really good at stuff.
So I was trying to get as good as I could
with flights and I memorized mnemonica
right, and I have a whole stack deck
memorized and all these things and but I
came to a point of just realizing I would
be with people and sometimes it was the
most simple thing, and people talk about
this in magic all the time Like you can do
the most complicated card trick and people
are like, oh cool, and then you do a double
lift and people are freaking out and I

(12:19):
think there's something about us as
magicians that feel guilty about that.
But that was what I applied in doing the
magic stuff.
It's like sometimes, if we're creating an
experience for people, the thing being more
simple is not a bad thing.
It's actually beautiful, like if it's for
them, it's, it's just it's, it's beautiful,
it's something that we get to do, and so,
anyways, I don't know if that answers your
question.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, I mean it does.
I think it's really interesting that
parallel between the, the idea that in
music, like a lot of the times, like it is
so funny, that the idea that in music, like
a lot of the times, like it is so funny
that the songs that stick with people are
the ones that, like you said, have
something really like simple to it and like
the repeats and, like you know, whatever
which to an aficionado is going like, this

(12:55):
song is dumb and it takes an amateur to
make, and sometimes it takes an amateur to
make.
That may be true, but also it.
If it's really just about how it makes the
people feel and respond, then like that's
what it's about and it's the same thing in
terms of magic.
And you know, what's interesting is, you
know, I've interviewed a lot of people and
I learned a weird trend that people that

(13:18):
get into magic later, especially for like
corporate or like for the sense of doing it
professionally, people that get into magic
later, get less caught up in learning a
hundred thousand slights and learning this
perfectly and learning that perfectly, and
they just get a little bit more into the
practical Cause.

(13:38):
If you're like 23 and you're learning magic,
you're learning an act like you're putting
together a show and you're not.
You don't have the time to sit and learn
like 8,000 tricks and get lost in that kind
of thing.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
It's like really reflective of what
happened to you, which is like correct me
if I'm wrong, but like your first real step

(13:59):
into doing magic was on AGT, like after
being a kid.
Like were you running around doing
corporate gigs in the years before you did
AGT or are you basically just like winding
up to do AGT?

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, so, like the first year, my wife and
I were still doing a bunch of ministry
stuff.
Dude, we were.
We worked with this organization that helps
women in like crisis pregnancies, and it
was literally just me and my wife living in
the attic of this house full of pregnant
girls who are just going through crazy
stuff oh my god, and a lot of them just
some kind of abuse involved.
A lot of them are victims of rape and
things like this, and so we're just like

(14:33):
helping these girls kind of figure out life
and get jobs and get back in school and
like kind of heal from these things.
And we're literally living in the attic of
this home with these girls and I'm like
doing magic tricks for them, right, just
trying to brighten their day, like this was
after I didn't make it onto America's Got
Talent and we just lived in that home and
then we we left there because we were like
man, something's happening with this magic

(14:53):
stuff.
People are really responding to this and I
think the the context in which we were
using the magic and the people who we were
doing stuff for.
I was like man.
We're just getting such an amazing response.
I want to focus on this a bit, and so that
was when we just put everything we had into
a magic show and then the pandemic hit
right and so we weren't able to do anything.
So, yeah, the first real magic stuff we did

(15:15):
was on AGT, and at that point I'd been
practicing a bunch and it was intimidating
because I'm like I got to do the most
impossible stuff.
I got gotta make sure that I do a magic
trick that is better than any other
magician.
And then I got to a point where I'm like
again sitting here thinking about my music
career and I'm like I sound like one of
these crazy amazing guitar players that I

(15:36):
talked to.
Yeah, who's so mad about having to simplify
stuff?
And I remember, dude.
So my finale episode.
I'm like what do I do for the finale
performance?
Right, and I just kept having this image of
like just talking about like what inspired
me when I was young, these people who
poured into my parents and now, like them
taking a little bit of time from my parents,
how that just like grew into something way

(15:58):
more than what they could have imagined.
And the visual that kept coming into my
head was Snowstorm, right, and I'm like
there is no way I'm doing Snowstorm as a
finale performance on America's Got Talent
and I keep trying to think of other stuff,
and I felt so guilty and I remember at that
point I had met like you know, I'm super
close with Brent Braun, he's one of my best
friends Got close with Danny Garcia and I

(16:19):
was talking to Blake Voigt and so sitting
with these guys, I'm like guys, listen, I
keep having snowstorm in my head and I told
them the idea of changing the context of it,
of like, rather than doing the chopsticks
and the fan and all this stuff to do this
whole thing around taking a word that
someone chooses like an action word to do
something that makes an impact, and then
showing how that one little thing can

(16:40):
become so much more, and then having that
written on the confetti as the confetti
comes down and and it, man, I'm just so
grateful for those guys because they get it
and they were like man, you know what this
isn't about.
They're like that.
The idea of snowstorm, like the visual is
beautiful and they've just really affirmed
me and I think this was like a huge thing
and I I know that I would not be here
without these guys, without Brent and

(17:01):
without without Brent and Danny especially,
but without them really affirming that
thing of like Dustin, here's like your
superpower, it's not.
It's not just being like the best magician,
but it's finding ways to take like simple
pieces of things and making people care
about it.
Right, and like taking the context of snow
storm and now adding something that's way
more just, just personal and and just kind

(17:23):
of like revisiting that thing.
And Snowstorm is an incredible trick, right,
it's an amazing visual and, again, that's
not just me saying like I'm awesome, it's
more just, I think just goes to the point
that I love and the thing that I really
live by within magic, which is, you know,
what are the things that are true and
authentic to us and how do we take those
things to connect with people.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Even if that means that the trick is going
to be simple.
So you know, I want to talk about that and
I also want to talk about, you know, some
of the help from these guys.
But I think, like mentally or like sort of
thinking about stepping into agt.
You know there's, there's some big shoes to
fill and in one, and like you know, it's a,
it's a really scary endeavor.
But another hand, like you really have to
think about it in terms of television, in

(18:09):
the sense of, like you can't be a better
shin limb.
Like that box has been checked.
You know you can't be a.
You know a better Franco, you can't be a
better.
Like you know, these boxes have already
been exactly exactly right.
Like these boxes have already been exactly
exactly right.
Like these boxes have already been checked
and like you know, certainly maybe you
could show up on the show or whatever.

(18:30):
But like there's no way to win it by trying
to like do one of those, your sort of angle
or your space would be storytelling, or
that your space would be sort of the.
You know, I don't want to say the authentic

(18:50):
angle, but, like you know, if I was talking
about it like a TV producer, you know, like
this is the authentic magician, this is the
whatever like did you know you were
stepping into it and saying, like I'm not
going to win it, sight of hand, I'm not
going to win it, mind reading, I'm not
going to win it.
It's like what I will win at is like doing

(19:11):
magic in this way, or did.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
It just kind of come from the way you are
and and it sort of took its own form.
Yeah, maybe, maybe kind of both, and both a
little unintentionally, I think you know
one of the things is there has been so many
things done on agt, so many different kinds
of magic, and that makes it hard to think
through new things and obviously, just as a
magician on a show like that, you're
constantly thinking of things that other
magicians did and it's like is the goal,
like you said, is it just to be like well,

(19:33):
shin did cards like this, so I'm gonna try
and do cards better, right, like like, are
you just trying to out do other magicians
on the show?
But I think the real thing and the real
kind of train of thought early on that I
kind of started living by and thinking
through things through the lens of on AGT,
was someone had said before this is really
interesting and maybe this again offends

(19:55):
some people.
But someone said, like it seems like being
a magician is like the only artful and the
only skill you can buy, right, like you can
go out and buy a guitar but you're not
gonna be playing in a bar that night.
Like you have to sit with the.
You know you can buy right.
Like you can go out and buy a guitar but
you're not going to be playing it in a bar
that night.
Like you have to sit with the.
You know you can go in with a hundred bucks
dude into a magic shop and that night
you're making things float and disappear
and change colors.
Now, definitely not to say there's not

(20:16):
skills still to learn, but like.
But the reality is to lay people.
If I practice some kind of crazy levitation
for years and then someone else just goes
and buys some simple thing in a magic shop,
a lay person might not even know the
difference, of course.
And the point that they were making was not
that magic is stupid and simple or whatever

(20:36):
the point that they were making was.
It seems like the only unique thing about
magic is who the magician is right they're
like.
It seems like the only unique thing about
magic is like who the magician is right,
like who the actual person is, who's
performing.
Because if you can make something float for
$25 and I can make something float for $25,
and he can make something float for $25,
yeah, then the only thing that changes the
trick is like who you, who you are and and
I think that really stuck with me man like

(20:58):
I was, like man on AGT, I just want to be
me, and and the other lens that I kind of
thought through things from was like I mean,
man, we worked with so many different
people.
Just work with people within the church,
outside of the church, you know, from drug
addicts to these girls who live in this
home.
We just worked with a lot of youth and the
one thing that I've realized is I feel like,

(21:18):
as humans, we have this thing in us where
we can like sense, when people are being
authentic, right.
It's just sometimes you talk to a person
like that kind of run me the wrong way.
I don't know if he was, so that person
seemed kind of fake, right, we use these
things all the time and I think with
magicians like we're, we come out the gate
already with like stripes against us
because we're lying right, like we're
already lying right no-transcript, to be

(22:13):
okay with people not liking you, but I'm a
firm believer in the fact that, like that
is what makes you unique is you being you.
It's the only person that no one else can
be.
They can't go and buy you.
And so I think that, combined with this
idea of really wanting to be honest because
I just wanted people to believe it, man and
I think we've all been in magic shows where

(22:35):
the guy's telling a story of this thing
You're like this never happened.
I already know this never happened Like
there's a complete made-up story for the
magic trick.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Yeah, you know what.
I think it's such helpful context for
people that are especially performers right
now that, like those are the things that
resonate.
I love what you said about you know.
The difference between your 25 dollars or
my 20 and someone else's is you know who we
are and that that's the part that really
shines through and I love, love the angle.

(23:03):
I think it's super interesting and it's
really nice to go against.
Like that said, you know the knocks against
you in magic for doing something where you
can actually choose to be authentic.
And I know, early on in my magic career, I
very much struggled being like what on
earth do I talk about in a trick?
When a trick is something fake and I don't

(23:24):
experience fake things in my life, like
everything I experienced in my life is real
and really happens, but then in a trick
it's something that is not real and doesn't
really happen.
You know like, yeah, can you comment on
that as sort of a weird sort of
philosophical thing?
But it's like you know how do you decide or
how do you start thinking about what a
trick is, about what it is that you want to

(23:47):
talk about when, like, you pick a card.
I know what you're thinking Like.
Okay, that is impossible.
How can I relate that to something that
happens or happened to me, or whatever in
life, without that connection between those
two things being authentic?
How do you think about what to talk about
when the trick is impossible?
But you're talking about something that is
probably possible or that happened, or

(24:08):
something like?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
yeah, yeah, and this is where I think, like,
the idea of educating yourself on magic
principles is important and not becoming so
obsessed with, like, the tricks themselves,
so like and this is just to give honor
where honor's due.
I think this is like brent braun's
superpower is like getting people to really
care and I know even when he was on penn
and tyler, people said that thing he did a.

(24:29):
You know that any card, any number, routine,
yeah, and he's just like dude, you made us
care so much about that one card.
Right, it's just the way that brent kind of
presents stuff and put stuff together and
I'm really grateful for for him because so,
first, even when you said, how do you get
people to care about that card?
For me, within my style, if there's a card
effect that I like, I'll be like cool,

(24:49):
let's do that.
But then I also think, wait, why do these
have to be playing cards?
Why does there have to be 52 of them?
Like, could they be photos?
Could they be postcards cards?
Could this principle apply to I don't know
like anything that I like to, to guitar
strings, like I don't know what, what
things that apply to me in this thing, and
so and it's funny you're asking this too,

(25:10):
because I find myself a lot of times I'll
be talking to other magicians and they're
like oh, sorry, hey, buddy, can you go out
there and shut that door?
Yeah, come out there, shut the door.
Hi, buddy, I love you.
Yeah, oh, no problem, no problem, say hi,
hi, hi, thank you, man.
But a lot of times I'll oh, I finished,

(25:30):
cool, sorry.
A lot of times I find myself talking to
other magicians and they ask a lot of the
same questions and I'm like well, what do
you do?
What do you like to talk about?
Like, what's the last movie you saw?
Why did you like that movie?
Right, like.
And it's funny because a lot of times I
start down these conversations and maybe
it's just a part of me that I've, like,

(25:51):
counseled people for so long where I
started to realize is, this becomes far
less about the magic trick, and some people
are like well, I don't know, I don't think
I even know who.
I am Right, you just get to this thing
where it gets so much more deep and
personal, and I don't think that means that
everyone has to do like meaningful magic.
But I think if you are goofy, if you're
silly, if you're whatever, I think, to show
that as part of who you are.
But anyway, so for me, when I'm thinking

(26:13):
through magic stuff, I often am like what
do I want?
I kind of work backwards.
I'm like what do I want to take away from
this?
To be like what do I hope people get out of
this show?
And now that I have decided what I want
them to get out of it, what are the stories
or the things in my life that could help
that?
So so now I'm automatically starting with
with an authentic story from me, so not

(26:34):
even thinking about the magic yet.
Right, what?
What is the part of me that communicates
the takeaway?
And then, as I started thinking about those
stories or those aspects of my character
and I mean, I know you saw my show, I talk
about having ADHD and you know all these
things my family and my childhood and these
things I started thinking like what are the
elements of my life that help communicate
this?
And once I figure that out, I'm like, okay,

(26:55):
what would be some cool visuals to go with
this?
Right, like what would be something that
helps this tie in?
Like on AGT, I'm talking about my parents,
marriage falling apart.
Well, where most people would be like I
want to do a torn and restored right.
They're like how do I tear up this playing
card and make this fit with that, rather
than just being like, yeah, my parents
marriage fell apart, so why am I not
tearing a picture of?

(27:16):
I mean tearing, tearing their photo of,
like their wedding day or something right,
and again, not that everyone has to just do
meaningful stuff, like at that level, but I
really just think, starting with that thing,
because I mean, you know, man, there's so
many magic tricks, there's a wealth of
knowledge out there of if you want to
create something that either exists or you
can make it, and you can find out how to
make it from a book or from a YouTube video

(27:38):
or something.
And I think that's become my main, my main
process, really, and I always like to run
things by Brent too, just because Brent is
really good, and it's the other thing I
would say to other magicians is just have
people who can be honest with you in your
life.
My wife is not into magic at all and I
always run everything by her and then by
Brent, like Brent, who can see things
through magic eye, and my wife who, like

(28:00):
that was stupid.
I'm like what this took me.
This took me a month, but I memorized it.
She's like yeah, I don't know, I don't care
about how you did it, it was just it wasn't
a good trick and that's been like it sucks
to hear, but it's like a really good kind
of.
I think they're like my checkpoints along
the way.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
So let's talk about, you know, having
having those people in your world.
Specifically, I want to talk about, you
know, brent and daniel garcia, and you know
it's.
It's a quite a unique situation.
Like, all of a sudden, you like, put it
straight together, you're an agent.
They're like, great, you made it the next
round.
You're like, hello, you know I can't.
You know I need some help to do this and I
don't know whether brent started helping me

(28:34):
from the beginning or number two, or
whatever.
But, like you know, all of a sudden, you're
like, oh my gosh, you know I need to help
and you bring, you invite Danny Garcia with
his, with his toolbox of super glue and
magnets or whatever you know it is.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and yeah, brent comes
out, or whatever.
I'd love to hear about that experience,
about working with some of these legends

(28:56):
who really work behind the scenes, and,
yeah, what it's like to particularly be
able to say you know, know, I'm just going
to have a little quick, little tangent.
I work with a, with a video editor and
graphic designer and stuff, and it's always
awesome working with him, because I go like,
here's what I want for this, I want this, I
want this, I want this, I want this.
And then like a day later he's like I did

(29:17):
it and I'm like okay, well'll do this app
Like you basically did it right.
And that's what I envision working with
some of these guys is like is saying like I
like this element, I like that element, I
like this, I like this, what can we do?
And then all of a sudden, you know you got
magnets and flaps and whatever, and you
know you got it all figured out.
So I know, obviously it doesn't work
exactly like that, but I'd love to these

(29:38):
guys yeah, hi, and what was it like for you?

Speaker 2 (29:41):
yeah, well, first, what was funny was that
I had gone to some there's like a magic
club when I lived in Texas and I went in
and this one guy lectured and we were in.
It was like all these guys who do like
gospel, magic and stuff and I was like guys
want to be like challenged to create
something else.
And I asked him and he had mentioned Brent
Braun and at this point I'm like you know,
I have all these like magic heroes now,

(30:01):
because I had nothing to do with just sit
and like look up magic stuff and research
magic.
And so he gave me Brent's number.
I texted Brent.
Brent never called me back, never texted me
back.
All right, this guy hates me, I'm just some
random dude.
And so I went.
So I have like, my one friend is a
programmer.
I have some other friends in the music
world, so I just started creating magic
with non magicians, which I think actually

(30:22):
was great, first of all because they did
not see things through a magic lens and it
was really really cool getting feedback and
ideas from people who don't think that way.
But anyways, so my friend was with me when
I went to AGT where I created the first
trick with that I did on America's Got
Talent and I got breakfast the morning and
I'm like dude guys.
I see Brent Brent's there with another
magician, agt, and I'm like dude guys, I
see Brent Brent's there with another

(30:42):
magician, agt.
I'm like guys, that's Brent Braun and
they're like what.
I'm like it's Brent Braun and like who's
that.
I'm like he makes magic tricks.
They're like, yeah, like like to none magic
people, yeah it's crazy, yeah like, yes,
but I'm like freaking out and I'm like I
gotta go say hi, oh, but he never called me
back.
I don't even know if he likes me.
He probably doesn't like me.
I remember you, I had a friend he showed me

(31:04):
I was working on in the beginning.
I was making tricks where I was combining
music and magic performance stuff.
He was great.
He was like I never heard from you.
He was like I thought you'd be cool to meet
at some point.
I was like wait what I told you.
And it turned out I had his wrong number
and all this time and I was just texting
the wrong person about magic, which whoever
that guy is, he's confused.
Awesome, yeah.
And so me and Brent just kind of hit it off

(31:25):
and we got to chat and stuff there and then
exchanging the numbers and when I was going
through into the live rounds I was kind of
just calling on him and running ideas by
him and he was just like and I would say
this about him and Danny, I hadn't met
Danny yet, but the thing that I think is so
great about them and obviously I knew Brent
first so the thing that's so great about
Brent is they found my strengths right, my

(31:48):
strengths was not being the best, most
skilled magician ever, because I had been
doing magic for a year and a half at this
point, two years at this point, right.
But what Brent called out very early on, I
think again, was that idea of thinking
through things a little bit different and
the approach being a little bit different.
And I think that's where me and Brent kind

(32:08):
of built some really cool chemistry was
because we just started coming at things
from these other angles and when we were
going through the live rounds, he was like
man, he was like we should.
He's like I want to introduce you to Danny
Garcia.
He was like he's a crazy, brilliant mind.
And it was the same with Danny from day one.
Man, I.
I am grateful that these guys saw such
value in me.
I know when I won AGT, there was a lot of
the magic community.
Who they're like?
Who is this guy?

(32:29):
He's never even been to a magic convention,
right.
But these guys they get it and they saw
something different and I'm thankful.
But it is hilarious being in a room with
them, dude, cuz, like I think with magic
you need to be willing to just say stupid
stuff and present ideas and not be thinking
of method and not be thinking of anything
just to throw stuff out there.
And I mean, man, we have thrown around so

(32:49):
many crazy wild things that sometimes make
no sense, but those things have sparked
other things.
And when you say, danny with his little bag
of magnets and glue, that's really funny
because on an AGT one the rounds and maybe
this kind of answers your question more but
like, okay, we need to do this thing.
We had this idea to have a postcard that
was torn and then we were like, but we want

(33:10):
to actually tear it.
I don't want to be the one to tear it,
because that feels magicianly.
I want to tear it, which means it has to be
the actual postcard end, but I want to
light it on fire.
I want to see it lit on fire and, um, it
sucks because, agt, they cut around stuff
to high stuff.
But the method of this thing we came up
with was awesome.
But anyways, we're like okay, so we need to
build this table that can have a bucket on

(33:30):
it that's on fire, the thing goes in, the
thing slides into the table.
So anyways, when we're talking to, ag
needed it in two days to perform on TV.
The turnaround of stuff is so quick and
they're like we can't build that.
We don't even know what you mean.
It's just going to be too much.
You guys got to figure out something else.
And Danny's like here he literally walked

(33:52):
over to a trash can.
This is a true story.
Bro Walked over to a trash can, pulled out
a bunch of cardboard, built it out of like
he just found a new trash can.
And he was like here, just build a nicer
version of this.
And he hands them the table.
And they just went and like, built a real
version of it.
But, dude, legit.
I watched this man with scissors and duct
tape and trash build this like fully

(34:13):
functional table for a magic trick to ditch
a flaming postcard.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Oh my gosh, that's.
I mean, I know him.
That's.
That sounds about right, you know that's.
That's so awesome.
It's such a cool thing to be able to work
with uh, you know, these brilliant minds
and help basically bring these ideas into
reality.
Can you just give us a little bit more
behind the scenes in terms of like is this

(34:38):
hey, I got 48 hours in a room with Brent
Braun.
This like okay, we've got two weeks to come
up with this.
We're mostly on zoom.
Is this like, like, what does it actually
like look like working with these guys
between rounds to make the next thing?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
yeah, well, it's kind of different, this
one.
I'm really grateful for them.
Like I think that again, like very early on
I I was grateful that these guys just saw
something in me and and valued me just also
as a friend.
And so, like you know, as we're talking
about stuff and we're on the phone and
figuring things out, again, like the
further out of making it, the less time we
had in between rounds to create it, not

(35:16):
only just to come up with the concept but
to write the script Cause my stuff is very
much about the scripting but then also to
build the magic and to create whatever it
is.
And so we had less and less time and like
even one of the times, you know, because
Danny lived in LA then and so he was there
and you know he could just kind of hop over
to the hotel as he had free time to come
through, and like even Brent one time like

(35:37):
just paid to come and to surprise me and
just to kind of like work with me for that
week, and again, it was just because these
dudes are awesome.
Like I can't.
I feel like now this whole thing's become
about them and I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry
like these dudes, I'm here because of them,
like they, and not just because of their
magic knowledge, but their friendship and
their understanding and them, them just

(35:57):
seeing something, that that changed
everything for me and they gave me
permission to speak.
Because I'm sitting here, like, because
sometimes they say stuff and you know,
we're all sitting there brainstorming and
I'm, like sometimes intimidated, like I'm
gonna tell danny garcia my idea for, like I
mean, I should just listen to whatever they
say, but them just being humble enough to
really listen and to really hear me out and

(36:18):
to really validate just my thoughts.
And there's times when you, you know, I
don't know, they're just humble because
obviously someone's in magic too.
You say stuff and then you try and it
doesn't work, and I think for them also to
just constantly affirm each other, to
constantly be able to call other friends.
I think their humility really was what, you
know, impacted me more than anything,

(36:39):
because that's how I want to be, like the
way that they were for me.
I want to be that for other magicians.
Man, there's no ego on this, there's no
nothing.
I mean me, if anybody has no reason to have
any kind of ego.
I mean I just I didn't win because of magic

(37:01):
right Like it was.
It was just.
Magic's a really fun thing, man.
I mean, who else gets to do this kind of
stuff?

Speaker 1 (37:06):
right, it's just it's awesome and it's
really awesome that you know the experience
that you had with it.
I know a lot of people have very
frustrating experiences with AGT and
frustrating TV and things like that and I'm
sure there was a lot of challenges and
frustrations and I wish there were, and
stuff like that but it's nice that it was
such a fantastic experience.

(37:26):
You didn't have to go at it alone.
You had a great community of people that
are helping you do it.
I wanted to ask a little bit about those.
I mean, look, agt made the world of a
difference in your career, so there's
probably not that many gripes.
But what was it like for you?
What was the part that you loved best about
doing it and what was the part that maybe
was the most frustrating, or not even

(37:49):
frustrating, like the part that people at
home either magicians or laypeople don't
know about the whole thing?

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Yeah, well, one thing that I was really
grateful for, and I think one of the things
that really helped me on the show, was from
when I was doing music stuff.
You know, I've worked in reality television
before.
I was the music supervisor of a reality
show for a while and I just like I just
know somebody behind the behind the scenes
of reality shows and I think one thing that
people have to realize is, like America's

(38:16):
Got Talent is not a talent show.
It's deemed that, it's titled that, but
it's a reality show.
Right, it's a reality show about judges who
people really care about.
The celebrity judges, yeah, contestants.
If the show was really about the
contestants, then they'd have the
contestants on all the episodes, but it's
the judges who always come back and it's
new contestants every year.
Like it is, it is true, just a reality show

(38:38):
and people get mad at that, right, and
people are like well, it's just because I
didn't make up some sob story and it's like,
again, it just goes back to the whole pop
music thing that I was talking about, where
people like what AGT is is it's about
characters and all these things.
So knowing that and I think having that
understanding going into it was very

(38:58):
helpful.
Also, you know, we've kind of always just
had this thing where I wasn't there to win.
To be honest with you, like I didn't even
think I was gonna get through the first
round.
Like I'm like they're gonna be like this
guy's cool, but he's got nothing.
So, but every round that I made it through,
you know, all the way going back to the
real prediction, which is my wife two years
before, when I picked up a deck of cards
and she was like you're gonna win America's
Got Talent.
I think just like having people a who were

(39:19):
celebrating me outside of just needing to
win, right, so I felt like I could make the
decisions that maybe the producers didn't
agree with, yeah.
But I think also and this is what I tell
people all the time who want to be on AGT,
I'm like you have to realize these people
are like seasoned professionals.
They know how to make good TV, good TV,
yeah, and people are like well, the
producers made me do, and I'm like I never
really felt that from them.

(39:40):
Like sometimes they would have suggestions
and the reality is, if they're going to
pitch to you what makes sense to them,
because they're artists as well and they're
going to want to paint things in a certain
way and if you paint a picture for them
that they don't understand, they're going
to have a hard time creating that for you,
right Right, creating the set and all that
stuff.
And I think finding that balance was really,
really important.
And, trust me, there's times where it was
frustrating because you're trying to

(40:01):
explain magic and they're like that doesn't
make sense and you do this and you can say
this.
But I got to a point where I really did
start listening to them and not as, like,
they told me who to be, but I'm like this
show has been on for so many years like
people know what they're doing.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
The show's been on longer than you've been
doing magic, so it's possible they've got
something good to say about it, you know
and look, I know some magicians who have
tried to be on that show and they're like,
well, they're just dumb.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
They told me that ambitious card doesn't
work.
And I'm like, well, maybe you should listen.
I mean, so many people have done ambitious
card on AGT and like they're trying to help
you to create something new and fresh.
And sometimes is that a challenge.
Absolutely, that's a challenge.
Like now you gotta rework what you're doing.
It doesn't mean you're a terrible magician,
it doesn't mean that they're terrible
producers.
It just means that, like you know,

(40:49):
sometimes we just have to find again the
balance to serve the audience that we're in
front of.
And again, I mean it can be frustrating on
those things, but I don't think those
frustrations are anything different than
working with anybody who's going to have a
different opinion from you.
Like, to me, that's just life and I like to
actually take those things into account.
Like when someone says, dustin, I don't
like your show, it's too preachy.
I'm like, okay, what can I?

(41:10):
What language can I change?
What's making it feel like that?
I'm not offended by that.
I'm like thank you for helping me.
I don't want people to come in and think
they're that and then so, anyways, yeah, I
think that, yeah, I think there's benefit
to the things that frustrated me on that
show.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
It's awesome to get the behind the scenes
about that and you know, it's the same kind
of thing that you get on Fool Us and AGT
and any sort of TV and whatever is like
people that have been doing this for a
really long time saying like, look, that
ain't going to work.
You know, and I remember shooting I think,
the first time we shot Fool Us.
But when we went out, the producers came

(41:46):
out after the rehearsal and they said you
know, again we're very lucky to have the
Fool Us producers it is, I know, different
than the AGT producers because they like
really know magic.
But they came out and they said we think
this table should be here.
It will look better.
At the end of the think this table should
be here, it will look better the other day.
You can do whatever you want, but we think
that the tables will be here and we really

(42:07):
want you to.
We're like yeah, yeah, yeah, move the table.
Man.
You know, like, move the table if that's
what you think, then you know, move it.
So I think it's really good advice for
magicians in these avenues that, like if
you're on someone else's tv show that has
been doing it for so long, they know like
their advice and their feedback is right

(42:28):
for that show.
You know it is closer to right than our
first guess at those things.
So, that stuff really, really resonates
with me.
I want to talk a little bit about the, a
little more about the style of magic,
because over the course of your show and
your AGT performances, you not only dip

(42:51):
into you know, being really authentic and
talking about your family and talking about,
you know, difficult moments and challenging
moments and things like that, but also you,
you know a lot of it is things that one
might call gospel magic, and I'm both
referring to the like stuff about
Christianity, but also, like there's stuff
about charities, you know, and there's

(43:14):
stuff about you know it, things where
you're really actually trying to not just
tell a good story and not just say
something about you, but, like, actually
hope to affect people and actually hope to,
like, please donate to this thing, or, like,
you know, let's take a moment and honor
this or honor that Like.

(43:34):
Can you talk a little bit about especially
the way that you're thinking about it,
because I think that, like, a lot of people,
myself included, have a lot of challenges
and problems surrounding the like gospel
magic especially, you know, and I'll give a
silly example of something which is, I
think, quite a big hurdle in this style of

(43:56):
magic, and it's the same as like
motivational, inspirational magic, which is
like if I could do this and make these two
ropes into one, you can do anything and
it's like well, you didn't actually turn
those two ropes into one.
You know, you're just holding it in your
hand like and like that's like my big
hurdle in that kind of stuff, which is the
if I could do this, you could do anything,
and it's like, well, you didn't really do

(44:17):
that, you know, you're like yeah, yeah you
know.
So like what does that even mean for me?
So I'd love to hear about your thoughts
about not just performing magic that is
authentic, but performing magic that relays
a message and maybe even relays change.
How do you think about that style?

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yeah, yeah.
So one thing, and actually, just as we were
talking I was just so we were talking about
sometimes the inauthentic thing that we can
feel from a magician, right, when it's like
I got there and maybe sometimes we're more
sensitive to it as magicians because we're
like, oh, this trick, and I already know
what story he's going to tell, right, but I

(44:52):
think people feel that too right and they
see it as just a performing art and not so
much as a human being on their
communicating.
But unfortunately, I think people have felt
that same thing in a lot of churches, if
we're to be honest.
Like from a pastor, right, like you feel
this person who's just up there saying some
stuff that feels almost scripted and
recited and things like this, and now you

(45:13):
combine these two things.
You have like a person doing a magic trick,
you know, and I know I gave you the example
before like, pick a card, any card, what is
it?
King of hearts?
Well, jesus is the king of my heart, like
that.
Now you're combining these two things that
sometimes fail to feel true, right, it
feels like this forced thing and I think,
because we've worked with a lot of churches

(45:34):
and ministries and stuff, you know, we've
experienced a lot of people who've been
very hurt by churches and we've tried to
take this approach of just really wanting
to hear people and to not make anything we
ever say feels scripted, because the minute
that you start sounding like the person who
just scripted something and didn't actually
care, it's going to kind of trigger that
stuff.
And so I think, within gospel magic, a lot

(45:58):
of times to me and I this is not to knock
anybody or anything, but sometimes it just
feels forced.
It's like you're taking a magic trick that
you saw and liked and then you're like
forcing it into this like gospel narrative
that I just, I don't know man, it just
feels forced and that's why, for me, it's
like I always just want to start with the
story.
Here's the thing I think with gospel stuff,

(46:23):
with inspirational magic, you should be
able to communicate this without the magic,
without the right.
Yeah, like, yeah, like.
You should be able to do that trick without
the ropes, like the thing that you said
right and then, and then to say, you know,
it's kind of like this, and if you do want
to do the rope trick, then find a way to
incorporate it, but like, but know that
without the ropes you should be able to
still do it.
And so, yeah, I think I think for's just
again that thing of like me, knowing who I

(46:45):
am, what do I want to communicate, what do
I believe, how do I get people to a place
of seeing inside, not only in my life, but
my emotions and my feelings, which for me
also means letting people in on my
struggles.
Right, I think this is one of the problems
sometimes with pastors or people
traditionally doing gospel magic, where
it's like, hey, broken person, I have it
all together.

(47:05):
Look at me, do this magic trick and watch
how.
I have it all together, right.
But I think, when you can let people in on
the fact that you're a human, too, right.
And I talk in my show about the times that
I've doubted myself and the fact that, like,
my wife is the one who got me back on track
when I was valuing all the wrong things,
and still to this day I get caught up in

(47:25):
the wrong stuff and I have people who have
reminded me and encouraged me.
I just think that lands with people so much
more because they don't want to believe and
this is again speaking more to just the
gospel and inspirational magic stuff.
I just think that people have began to
reject the idea that there's any perfect
human in the world and so, like, if you can
stop trying to present yourself as that and
find ways to truly not just, not just talk

(47:46):
about the world's trouble but talk about
your own, I think, if you're trying to land
these messages, my thing always is like
again, make it personal to you.
What are you not not only what have you
gone through, but what are you still going
through that are going to make people
respect you, because they're going to see
your fight, not only then when they didn't
know you, but you know their fight now.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
I think one incredible advantage that you
have to just you know comment on this.
One incredible advantage that you have is
that you led a full, interesting life with
so many different aspects to it before
magic.
You know like you were a musician, you were

(48:28):
the music industry, you were married, you
were charitable, you were the.
You know you like led this interesting life.
So it's like you have this list of things
and not that it's not challenging for you
to dig deep and identify what those things
are.
But I think a lot of us like myself
included like there was no before magic for
me.
Like there was no.
What am I all about?

(48:48):
It's like, well, the first thing I'm all
about is magic, and I think that problem
arises for a lot of magicians to try to
write stuff that is authentic and that is
about their other beliefs and passions and
thoughts and whatever, because so many of
them surround this thing and it's so
insular.

(49:08):
So it's really interesting that so much of
this is like should be able to express that
idea like without magic, and I think it's
possible.
A lot of magicians struggle, I know, myself
included.
Like you know, I start with the magic
because that's like the thing I know most.
I'm like what am I going to tell the world
about?
Like, yeah, yeah, what am I going to say?
What, like, like you know, I and and that's

(49:31):
sort of the wall that I run into all this
time when I'm trying to make it about
something really is like it's hard for me
to start with the what it's about and then
to the magic, because, like, I don't know,
I don't have this bunch of things that I
want to tell the world, or these yeah, yeah
stories that I really want to say what
would you say to a person who's like that,
who's like you know, now I'm 30, which

(49:53):
doesn't make that big of a difference, but
imagine it's like you're 19, right, and
this person says to you well, what do you
want to tell the world?
And it's like well, I hate homework,
exactly so what kind of advice do you have
like that for magicians who are struggling
to find the things to talk about?

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah Well, so this is going to sound like a
very me answer, but then I'll bring it back
to to kind of your question.
So for me, I think, because I'm so big on
like people, knowing who they are and you
know, working within the music world for so
long like man, I've known people on both
ends of the spectrum the guy who's still
the struggling artist and the people at the
very, very top of their careers, most
famous people in the world.

(50:32):
And you see, so many of these people who
play so much of their identity into the
thing that they do and it's it's, it's,
it's great.
But sometimes it creates this like angst of
like I don't know when, when, when your
identity is in this stuff, it is hard to
know what you like, it is hard to know how
to relate outside of these things, and I
think that for me, one of the big things

(50:53):
that I always try and encourage people in
is I've seen again people at the top within
whatever their business or career is.
As that thing starts to dwindle, it's like
they don't know who they are anymore and
they're fighting to keep to matter.
And to me it's like well, people, you do
matter, right, you do have things that can
relate with the world.
I know people who would say that there's
nothing special about me.
I just feel alone, right, well, special

(51:17):
about me, I just feel alone, right, well,
right.
There, I think, is a piece of something
like and and and.
Not only is that a piece of a thing that
you're going with and can share and going
through, but it's something that actually a
lot of people can relate with.
That is very personal.
So, if that is adhd or anxiety, or,
honestly, the idea of, like I hate homework
even though I was just joking about that,
the reality, like, if you're in high school
and you hate homework, like I don't know, I

(51:38):
mean and this is going to sound stupid, but
this is just what, when I'm in a room with
Brent, this is what happens.
We talk about I hate homework.
Okay, let's start with this.
Maybe there's some kind of torn and
restored around homework and you're like,
nah, I can't do this.
But this is where, a lot of times, these,
these conversations spark with Brent, where
we're like what's just some funny premises

(51:58):
or some interesting premises that are that
are personal for this thing, and so, like I
would say with you, man, like you're saying
your, your life, your life is magic and all
these things.
I think even part of that being a thing of
just growing up in in magic and starting a
podcast and wanting to communicate and
you've always wanted to, like educate
people on all these things, like there are,
there are things about you that are super,

(52:18):
super interesting, that are not just magic.
Now they might have magic attached to them
because it's a passion of yours, but, like,
I think that's one of the beautiful things
about this process is it starts making you
go through and find the other valuable
things about yourself, the other
interesting things, even if those things
are struggles.
Again, I think that people and you know
that's a part of the show too in my show is
like that's one thing we can all relate

(52:39):
with is like messy moments.
We all have messy moments.
It's okay to have mess, but maybe there's
magic that exists in this mess and I don't
know if that answers your question at all,
but I-.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Yeah, it does.
I mean, I think you know, I think, look,
you're not the only person I've asked this
question to on the podcast and I think it's
just interesting to hear the different
angles of it, which is that, you know,
there, it always is something there and it
doesn't need to be the world's most earth
shattering thing that you're sharing or
whatever it is.

(53:08):
Most of it is a bid for connection and
relatability than it is a bid for like wow,
that's the first time I've ever heard that
thought.
You know, in my you know I.
I think that that part is really helpful.
I'd love to talk for sort of the last sort
of major thing to talk before we get to the
wrap up questions is to chat a little bit

(53:29):
about your show and to chat a little bit
about Branson.
Branson is a wild place.
It is a place like no other, and I just
interviewed Reza, whose episode will
probably be coming out a little bit before
yours, and he talks a little bit about it
as well.
But for people who don't live in middle
America and know what Branson is, can you

(53:51):
just describe this place to the best of
your ability so people can understand what
Branson even is, because that's where your
show ends right.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
So.
So Branson is a place where I mean, like
10,000 people live here and then they get
like 10 million visitors a year, right, and
it's not.
It's gone through different waves of
different reasons, like at one point it was
really big on country music and still it is
still a lot of those country roots, but
also there's some other young stuff that's
come in.
There's a lot of.
There's a lot more like faith-based stuff

(54:21):
here than what would be in, like you know
vegas or something yeah and not that that
stuff doesn't exist, but here it's like the
headline, like the biggest show here is
sight and sound, right, and they literally
do bible stories.
And if you haven't ever seen something
sound, I don't care what you believe or
where you come from.
It is the most incredible productions,
space production you'll ever see in your
life.

(54:42):
They're insane, it's amazing.
Um, so if you ever get a chance to see a
sight and sound production, you should do
that.
But, um, so, so, so.
Brandon is a place.
There's magic shows here, there's go-karts,
there's, you know, silver dollar city.
It's the big amusement park, the theme park,
I should say.
It was just voted number one theme park in
the country by like usa today and stuff
like this from its first, like theme

(55:03):
elements, so like 1800, kind of, just like
blacksmiths working when you go through you
can watch them work in metal and all these
things.
But yeah, so it is a quirky little place.
What's what's great is is you end up with
families coming here.
A lot of people drive because most of the
country can get here within a day, so you
have a lot of people who maybe even

(55:24):
couldn't afford some of those other
vacations to put their whole family on an
airplane, but they can all drive, you know,
6, 10, 12 hours to get here.
We've logged it because there's a lot of
normal life stuff here too, a lot of free
stuff.
The lake is beautiful.
I don't know how much you've actually done
in Branson, but just so many cool things to
do out on the lake.
Ozarks are just gorgeous, and so people

(55:47):
come here for all different reasons, man.
They come out here for boating, they come
out here for fishing and hiking and outdoor
stuff, they come here for the attractions,
they come here for the shows, they come
here for the music.
It's a wild place.
Some of it definitely a little behind the
times, right, it's a super quirky little
place, but we've loved it man, we really,
really like being here.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
You know what?
It is?
A place that blew my little mind because of
everything you're talking about.
It's like, on one hand, 10,000 people live
there and it's like a quiet little city and
then, the other hand, it gets 10 million
visitors and 150 theaters and amusement
parks and ferris wheels and go-karts and
and ice cream, yeah, yeah and whatever, and

(56:25):
like it's just funny that there's a another
Las Vegas that is a p that no one's ever
heard of you know, like, like yeah it's I.
I described it as a docked cruise, you know,
like that's kind of what it's like and it's
and it's huge and it's incredible.
And I that's what I really do recommend
that people go at.
Some of the best shows I've seen in my life
or, you know, are in brands so yeah, and

(56:46):
real quick, if anyone is gonna come, like
just some recommendations on shows.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
So sight and sound, obviously incredible.
The hey good is the big music show here we,
clay Cooper, which I'm not a big country
music fan, but a lot of these shows also
incorporate comedy and skits and all this
stuff.
Matt Gumm is an incredible impersonator and
musician and comedian man.
There's just so many.
I'm just saying outside of the magic world.
Right, there's a bunch of magic shows here,
but even other things.

(57:11):
There's people that are like I'd like to
come and see some random stuff, and also I
say this stuff through the lens of my
family.
I got two little boys, right, it's stuff
that they love going to.
Yeah, really cool place.
Obviously, raze is here and Rick Thomas and
Phil Dalton.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
I saw four magic shows and I saw the
Dottons and it was wicked man, it was a
wicked time, it was really cool.
Talk to me a little bit about your show
there, because I think like to comprehend
the journey you go from doing AGT, which is

(57:45):
like these one-offs you know, to basically
I know you were in Vegas for a little bit
but basically like having a pretty blank
slate to make an event, a show that has all
of the like best parts of the show, that
it's like you don't have to pack small and

(58:05):
play big.
You know you're like yeah, yeah, or you can
say basically whatever you want, you can do
whatever you want, you can build whatever
you want.
So it's such a unique spot to be in.
How did you go about?
And and it's still, by the way, I'm sure, a
bit of a work in progress, I know I was
there for the hundred how are you thinking,

(58:26):
or how have you been, or were you like
thinking about putting this show together
basically from the ground up?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
yeah.
So a lot of this is like I feel like even
through agt, some ideas that I had for the
show that maybe would have been too long to
work on tv right before or just too similar
to something else that maybe someone would
have did done before on the show.
Some stuff that I just found and
workshopped different places and different
spaces, different churches and youth groups

(58:54):
and, I think, really trying to find this
stuff that resonated with people.
Yeah, and really it's been.
I mean, some of the stuff that I'm doing
now is some of the first stuff that I came
up with when I started doing magic, some of
the stuff that we just made for this.
But I think what's been really cool is kind
of taking all this over time and refining
this thing to really find out again like
what, what strikes a chord with audiences
and and, like you said too, to not just try

(59:17):
to be the next david copperfield or shinley
or whoever, but to really say, okay, I
don't only want to apply this to tv but but
to the stage, and so we've tried to create,
obviously, my show's a little bit more.
If you were to categorize it a little bit
more, probably within the mentalism
category, right, I'm not a big illusionist.
You have some things in the shows in the

(59:37):
show that are some illusion type things,
but it's not a whole lot of like visual
magic, you know kind of, but maybe some of
the more of like the visual predictions.
But yeah, I think I think just going
through and seeing what exists in this town
and what feels like it's still true to my
style, and then what would feel different
from those things and again making
something that feels authentic to me.

(59:57):
And again, this is just being really honest.
And two, maybe just to encourage people who
are listening to this, the show is taking
so many forms and it's not because I keep
having new, better ideas.
The show is taking so many forms because I
keep getting more like bad feedback from.
You know, not everyone just gives you bad
feedback, but I feedback from you know, not
everyone just gives you bad feedback, but
I'm saying the one person who has a bad
thing to say, who normally were like that

(01:00:19):
guy's a moron, I I do really try and listen
to that stuff, you know.
I mean and to take that into account.
And what's really great about that is to
ask honest questions, even to have people
that I know ask people questions because
people aren't going to be honest with me.
They're not.
They're never going to be as honest with
the artist yeah so I think, really finding
out, like what are the moments, what are
the tricks that people remember, and asking
questions like what tricks stood out to you

(01:00:40):
the most, what was this trick, this trick?
And I'm like in my mind, I'm like, oh,
that's crazy, because I would think it was
this trick.
And then some people like, well, no, it was
this, but the story with this part tied to
this part and yeah, I I think that, like
this show right now is just the culmination
of finding out what has connected with
people.
Even if it's not my favorite moments in the
show, I've made them my favorite moments in

(01:01:00):
the show, because if that's what's
connecting with people, then those are the
things that I focus on.
And now we've gotten even greater reactions
because we've taken the things that people
are responding to and now giving them more
attention, if that makes sense, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
And I got to give you a lot of credit for
that show, Cause not only did I think it
was just bad, but the part that, as a
magician, you know was amazing is it was so
much that I had not seen before you know,
like a lot of them were like you know
versions of things, which obviously is, is,
like you know, great in the way that most
of us do all of it.
But like the quantity of the show that was,
I was like I don't know where this is going.

(01:01:41):
You know like, yeah, I don't know where
this trick is going.
Like I, I don't, you know.
Sometimes the magician comes out with
something and you're like okay, like I can
just basically like you know.
I know what, what it's gonna happen.
So a lot of them like I don't know where
this trick is going, like a lot of it was
really new and and really fresh and and I
thought it was fabulous and and and a lot
of it was just just brilliant.

(01:02:02):
So I had an amazing time there and and it
was really great to see the show.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
And just to give brent another shout out
too.
You know, I one of these things when, when
I got this place to a point where I really
liked it, I went out to brent.
So Brent has a shop, a theater and magic
shop in Louisville, kentucky.
Well, it's in New Albany, indiana, but they
just say Louisville because it's but it's
called J&B Magic Shop and man, I just, you
know, went out there.
We did a couple of shows there at the
theater and he just kind of helped refine
those things.

(01:02:26):
And again, that's the stuff.
That's really fun, cause what you just said,
like sometimes out with the thing, you're
like I know where this is going, brent is
really good and has really encouraged me,
and now this is the thing I do all the time
of being like well, why do I even need this
prop?
I like this trick, but why do I need to use
the same prop?
Maybe I can make this into a different
thing, or and sometimes that's enough to
just make it start to feel different, and

(01:02:47):
then you add a little bit of yourself to it
and now it feels like a completely
different trick love it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
So, yeah, yeah, brent, brent is awesome and
it's it's so cool that he's had such a hand
in all the cool stuff that you've been able
to put together.
Yeah, we are nearing the end of this chat.
There's a couple of different sort of
wrap-up questions that we asked.
The first is about modern magic.
So, like, what's one thing in the world of
magic right now that you like seeing you,

(01:03:13):
like that exists, and what's one thing that
you don't like?

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Yeah, one thing that I like I think people
are starting to dive in a little bit more
and challenging themselves.
If we could answer that question, maybe
reversed.
So the thing that I don't like is, I think,
how much now you see so many people just
posting the same things all the time and
even so much stuff being exposed.
You see people doing tricks just posting

(01:03:36):
the same things all the time and even so
much stuff being exposed.
You see people doing tricks poorly on the
Internet and expose it for the people who
are doing well or who are doing it.
You know they practice these slights.
I just think the Internet and people seeing
stuff it's made it harder to even do stuff
in a show that people haven't seen, right.
But I think the thing that I love about
magic is that exact thing, because I think
people are starting to now lean into Well,
gosh, gosh, everyone's this, this trick's

(01:03:56):
been done on the internet.
You know, 176 times.
I might need to revisit some stuff and
rethink through some things, and so I feel
like there's a lot more magicians now kind
of thinking through a lot of the stuff that
we've been talking about, like what makes
my show unique to me?
How do I do more than just a trick, that I
bought it in a package and then I perform
it as is.
I think the internet has almost forced that

(01:04:17):
to start happening, and I think it's cool.
You know, and I and I, I don't know I've
just seen some people doing some things
that feel a little bit more true and
authentic to who they are, which obviously
I'm a big fan of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Love it.
That's awesome, Really really helpful, and
it's it's cool that you know.
One thing I really admire about you is just
how positive you are and how authentic you
are, and it's nice that you're not griping
about the magic world for doing this or
that, and instead you know it seems like
you're really seeing the cool stuff that

(01:04:50):
that's happening right now and that's that
part's really awesome, so I appreciate that.
Thanks, man, it means a lot, Thank you.
The next part of this is the endless chain.
So in order to keep the podcast going on
for eternity, each guest is asked to
recommend another guest.
That would be a really good fit for this
show.
There are two catches.

(01:05:11):
The first catch is that I haven't
interviewed them already, which is pretty
tough because there's been like 300 of them.
And then the second catch is that I haven't
interviewed them already, which is pretty
tough because there's been like 300 of them.
And then the second catch is that you have
to be able to put us in contact.
Is there someone who comes to mind for you
that you think would be a really good fit
for this show that we haven't had on the
Ecosports I contact with.

Speaker 2 (01:05:28):
Yeah, I mean, have you had Brent on?
Yes, probably have had Brent before.
Yeah, let me think I'm trying to think of
someone who you haven't had on most of the
people that I know.
Have you had Danny on and Blake and these
guys, yeah, and I feel like I've heard
their stuff on here before, but I'm just, I
mean, I have my one friend, scott Scott
Syme, who has.

(01:05:48):
He was the guy, the one who I said was the
realtor who was doing magic on the side.
I mean, he's not like you know, full-time
magician guy, but he's the one who really
inspired me.
But I feel like, oh, you know Phil Dalton,
he's here too.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Yeah, I haven't spoken to him yet.
Did you see his show when you were here?

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Phil Dalton.
Yeah he has a show at the same theater, so
he's there no.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
I didn't no Gotcha, so he builds some stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
That's a great name.
Some other illusions yeah yeah, that's a
great one.
I'm going to write that down.
Last question is this People have been
listening to us chat about magic for like
an hour or so now and there's a lot of
these episodes, a lot of these
conversations.
People are probably like walking their dog
or washing dishes or something.
If you were to take one thing from this
conversation and keep it and use it, and

(01:06:38):
one thing you think is the most important,
what do you think the most important thing
is that people can take from this?

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Yeah, I would say the big thing is just, I
think, the constant discovery of who you
are as a person, what makes you valuable,
and trying to find ways to implement that
into your show.
I always say, if you create a show where
you got sick one day, like could someone
else just come in and fill in for you?
And if they could, then maybe you need to

(01:07:04):
visit that a little bit, right?
Yeah, that is so good.
I want to know that when I'm on stage, if
I'm sick, the show's just not happening.
And again, not that anyone's going to like
just step in for someone else, but you know
what I mean.
Right, it's just yeah, so love it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Really, really awesome.
Thank you so so much for doing this and for
joining us and for sharing everything in
your story and, of course, a big thank you
to everybody who listened and tuned in.
Thank you all so much for listening and for
being here, and we'll see you next Thursday.
Ciao, friends.

(01:07:41):
Well, there you have it.
I hope, of course, that you learned
something.
I hope you liked it, and this would be the
opportunity to share this with someone and
tell a friend I'm trying to get you the
best names ever in magic and ask them the
most interesting and helpful questions, and
all I ask in return for this lovely free

(01:08:01):
podcast is for you to tell a magician who
would benefit from this sort of thing.
So thanks so much for being here.
Hope you enjoyed it and I will see you next
thursday.