UNO REVERSE: Jonah Babins gets interviewed by Eric Leclerc

Join us for a unique twist as Eric Leclerc takes over as host to interview the usual host, Jonah Babins, on his own podcast.

The post UNO REVERSE: Jonah Babins gets interviewed by Eric Leclerc appeared first on Discourse in Magic.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my friends, welcome to Discourse in
Magic.
My name is Eric LeClaire, subbing in for
Jonah Babins.
This week we have the amazing Jonah Babins
on the show.
We like to call the show Uno Reverso, where
I get to interview your favorite podcast
host, discourse in Magic's very own Jonah
Babins.

(00:20):
This episode is filled with amazing advice
you can utilize to take your magic business
to the next level.
It is filled with tidbits and secrets and
stories on how he got this mastermind
project started.
I certainly learned a whole lot.
I loved it.
I think you guys will too.
Let's get right to it.

(00:41):
Discourse in Magic episode who Knows?
With Jonah Babins.
Jonah Babins, finally have you on the show.

(01:02):
Thanks for taking the time to agree to do
this, of course, of course.
So we're doing Uno Reverso episode today.
You're the one that's going to get
interviewed for once, because after what is
it now?
370, some episodes, something like that?
You don't count them anymore, do we?
No, yeah, after so many episodes.

(01:23):
My name is Eric LeClaire.
Thank you very much for people listening
tuning in.
I pitched you on this idea because I was
like, well, it must have happened already.
Somebody must have had.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
I get pitches on this idea every year or so
and mostly I just say no, but you're just.
You got the energy man, you got the vibe.
I told Ben asked to do it, I said screw off,
dude, I'm giving it to eric, it's not
happening you know.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
I have to tell you right off the bat a
little bit about my experience with
podcasts is I'm not a podcast person.
Yeah, I've appeared on many podcasts as in
it as somebody getting interviewed, and
also with chris and wes on their podcast
bottom of the barrel, and I just didn't
like it.
It felt like work, it felt it felt like,
you know, getting interviewed fine, but

(02:08):
hosting with the boys, it just didn't like.
I just felt like it was work.
So I wasn't, I've never been a podcast
person.
And then recently, I don't know what made
me start the Discourse in Magic series.
But it's about something I'm passionate
about magic and just the fact that

(02:30):
different ways of consuming podcasts Like
right now, when I work out, I listen to
podcasts, when I drive I listen to podcasts.
I've always been a music guy and there's
something about constantly being fed
information that you care about, even
though it's just in the background.
That's very, it's very rewarding, it's very
compelling.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Totally.
I think one thing I learned about podcasts
which is so funny is that if someone is
already a podcast person, then to get them
to listen to one new podcast is easy.
If someone is doesn't listen to podcasts,
then to get someone to like figure out when
in their life they would listen like it's
like what am I going to do?
Just sit here and stare at a wall while

(03:03):
someone talks to me?
So, like you have to, you have to be used
to.
Like you do it when you wash dishes, you do
it when you like when you're in transit or
whatever working out.
You know like, and depending on what my
life is about at the time, I listened to
more or less podcasts.
Now I'm like really busy, but for me I am a
super podcaster.
I wake up, I put in a podcast and then from

(03:26):
when I, you know like, brush my teeth and
and cook breakfast and make coffee,
whatever, from then until when I sit down
to work, which is like 40 ish minutes, I've
got something in, and there's another two
or three sort of 40 or 50 minute blocks
during the day where the same thing happens.
So yeah, I'm banging out like two hours a

(03:46):
day or more of podcasts.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
That's amazing and also it makes the time
pass by so fast.
I don't know if it's because, if it's new
in my life or you know, I'm usually just
singing my heart out in the car or whatever,
and this is just a new thing and it tricks
my mind.
But I was in traffic yesterday for 45
minutes like stand still.
I finished a show.
And I was in traffic yesterday for 45
minutes Like stand still.
I finished a show.
I was in the parking garage Stand still for
45 minutes underground parking and, because

(04:10):
I had discourse on it, just flew right by.
So thank you for getting me hooked on the
podcast, really appreciate it.
I think I've crushed like 40 or 50 episodes
so far and so I'd like to get started right
away with.
Something we ask everybody here on the show
is how did you get started in magic?
How did you find magic?
Or how did magic find you?

Speaker 2 (04:32):
I know you've only listened to 40 or 50
episodes, but you got this down pat.
You got this really good.
I started magic when I was a kid.
My uncle did, my uncle did D lights for all
of the nieces and nephews and yeah, he was
just a fun, fun guy.
And you know, after doing so many of these
interviews, I used to think that, like when

(04:53):
you see a magician, if the magician's like
good enough, then you get hooked on magic.
But I've since changed my belief, which is
that I think that if you are the type of
person that has the magic-y,
problem-solving-y brain like you, like
these kind of puzzly things and
problem-solving-y things, maybe a little
bit of creativity, whatever if that's you

(05:15):
and you see magic, then you're screwed.
Then this is just what you have to do now,
forever.
So, yeah, I saw him doing.
Saw him doing D lights early.
I was obsessed with it for my kindergarten
show and tell.
I brought him in to show everybody the D
lights and to show everybody what, what he
did.
But at this point you must've known that

(05:36):
they were thumbs.
Eventually he told me I don't remember.
He told you okay, you never.
No, no, I was very young I was probably
five, right like you know, very, very young
and I don't know.
You know, at some point it just kept going
and going.
I think when everyone finds out that you
like magic as a kid I have a big family and

(05:57):
you know a lot of like you know, jewish
holidays with Hanukkah and gifts and
whatever, like you know, just everyone is
feeding that you know you're getting magic
kits and you're getting this and going to
browser the magic shop in Toronto and going
to this and that, and so it just slowly
sort of kept growing and growing and
there's different turning points and
different moments that you know, time I

(06:18):
thought I would kind of get out of it or,
you know, get into it especially, but
that's kind of how it started is just my
uncle my uncle was a very how do I, how do
I say this cleverly, I think a worldly guy,
you know.
So he would like go see this in Vegas or
he'd go here or he'd go there, and he just
like, collected cool things and did, did
cool things and led a cool life.

(06:39):
So he just showed delights all the kids he
still does, and I just I just loved it.
I just got hooked on it.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
It's two things I want to touch here.
The first one is the jewish culture.
I had a jewish girlfriend for a couple
years and I was immersed in their culture,
which I I loved, by the way.
I loved living in a jewish household during
covid and we were in the hamptons, but this
time point passover was amazing all this,
but it seems like magic is more prevalent

(07:05):
in a Jewish child's life with bat mitzvahs.
Bat mitzvahs, there's just something.
What is it?
What is it?
Why is it?

Speaker 2 (07:15):
I'll say a couple of weird things about it.
So I agree, obviously there's also a lot of
famous magicians who are Jewish.
But there's a couple of things I think.
The first thing is that A you know, jews
really encourage education a lot, a lot, a
lot, a lot, which I think has some overlaps

(07:36):
with magic.
But I'm going to say the really weird thing
out loud, which is, you know, I forget the
statistic, but it's something crazy that,
like you know, jews are a half of a half of
a percent of the world's population and
they're like 60% of all.
What's that award in science?
Gosh, what the heck?

(07:56):
Not Nobel prize?
Nobel prize, yeah.
And there's different questions as to why.
But one potential reason is that in every
generation, jews at some point are
persecuted and they are chased out of their
land and they have to go figure it out

(08:16):
somewhere else and they have to problem
solve and if you believe in the evolution
of it all, like the really clever guys are
the ones that escape persecution and escape
trying to get murdered.
So there's this thing where Jews are kind
of clever and maybe the reason I described

(08:38):
is why.
Maybe not, it's the best reason that I have
to understand, but it's just, you get a lot
of engineers and a lot of problem solvers
and doctors and lawyers and Jews are clever
and and and it's not always true, obviously,
but you know, as a broad idea, I think
there's something to whether it's the

(09:00):
nature or the nurture that, like, we see a
lot of clever industries, industries where
someone needs to be more smart than
athletic.
You don't see a lot of jews in the nba
right, but you don't see a lot of jews in
major league sports.
You know but you do see them in things that
are more problem solving and things like
that and other cultures you see in more

(09:21):
things than others and whatever.
So every culture has their own things that
they, you know, maybe dominate at, but I
think there's something about cleverness in
Judaism that aligns with magic.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
That makes a lot of sense.
The second thing I want to touch on that
you mentioned is going to the magic store.
There's no doubt that a brick and mortar
magic store close to where you grow up is
instrumental in you know, convincing your
parents to go asking for magic props for
Christmas, for your birthdays, the
community of magicians that usually hang

(09:53):
around the magic store.
You had one of the best in Toronto.
You know there was there was a couple in
Toronto, but you had magic stores at your
disposal.
At what point did you go from, like the
four-year-old you know liking the coin
tricks, to you know spending $20 on one
trick.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
I mean, look, I, when I started going, you
know the the graduation is from like magic
kits to the magic shop, you know.
So that graduation happened, whatever.
Let's imagine I was 11 or 10 or something
like that, right, and I started buying
tricks and I have to shout out, ben Train,

(10:34):
because you know, growing up it was so
funny.
Obviously I'm going to talk back about the
magic shop, but you know, growing up we met
at Sorcerer's Safari at the Canadian magic
camp.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
You and Ben, or you and I Both All of that
Camp you and Ben, or you and I Both All of
that Really, you met Ben Train at.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Sorcerer's Safari Magic Camp.
I maybe met him in Toronto, but we sort of
knew each other a little bit more because
of Sorcerer's.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
I don't really remember.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
You had been spending a week in the woods
together.
No sorry, I met him at a Jewish summer camp
where he was in charge of giving candy to
all the kids and someone told me that we I
had to meet this guy and and and we met.
And then a couple of years later, I went to
Sorcerer's.
But I remember very vividly me going to the
magic shop after after.

(11:15):
When I started going to the magic shop, I
was done with kids.
I was just buying stuff.
I was buying the coin, tricks and gimmick
decks and things like that.
And I remember him saying to me, asking him
for advice, and him saying to me, like I'm
happy to give you advice, but I'm probably
just going to encourage you to buy books.
So I think that, like, I bought stuff until

(11:36):
he told me to buy books.
Obviously he made me buy expert at the card
table, which is such a stupid thing to get
a child to buy.
But you know he he encouraged me to buy
books.
So I think I was mostly just going there
and buying tricks and tricks and tricks and
tricks and then slowly, you know, it kind
of all happened together is like going to

(11:56):
sorcerers.
And you know I had bought a couple of DVDs
like Jay Sankey.
And then also during that time is when
downloads started to be a thing, like with
Penguin and Theory 11.
And then I was buying books.
So like there was this transition, probably
around 15 years old, where I went from
buying tricks and things to buying books

(12:19):
and videos and and you know things like
that, but I still have a giant drawer of
tricks and you know things like that.
But I, I still have a giant drawer of
tricks and you know, like a giant, you've
got a room full of them.
But I think like there really only was a 10
year period of my life five 10 year period
where I bought magic stuff.
Now, every now and again I'll buy a thing,

(12:41):
but like mostly now I buy books and I buy,
you know, working with someone or you know
something like that.
I, I, I don't really buy tricks so much
anymore.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
So there, was a little period, Ben was
really part of your kind of circle and
mentor like kind of like your guide.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
If you remember Tyler Williams, who I used
to do this podcast with um, tyler and I
used to worship the ground that Ben walked
on.
Now used to yeah, now I live with him.
I know you know he's a little shit, but I
used to worship the ground that he walked
on and he was.
Now you know he's a performing magician and

(13:19):
he does his act and he has his 15 close-up
tricks and his 10 tricks that he has on
stage.
But back then he did a lot of technical
sleight of hand that was very difficult and
doing really unique things that we had
never seen before.
And even at magic camp we weren't terribly
close.
We knew each other.

(13:39):
We had jammed.
He was my counselor and then cit and then
we're both counselors together.
I vividly remember him leaving a message on
my parents answering machine saying that
Mike Siegel, the one who runs the camp,
told him that I was his CIT and he tried to
trade me for a ham sandwich, but they said
no.
So I'm stuck with him, which was just a

(13:59):
cute little stupid message.
But you know, I think back when I lived in,
back when I lived in Vaughan, which is like
north of Toronto, you know the magic shop
was these characters and it was an hour
away, like it was still an hour away.
Right, so I would take, I would take public
transit for an hour to mission, all the way
down to the shop to go spend a couple hours
there and then come back, right, so he was

(14:22):
one of the cast of characters that I would
see there and would he organized some
lectures and stuff and workshops in Toronto.
And then I saw him at camp.
So pre camp he was an inspiration, but like
at an arm's length.
You know, I was very interested in what he
and some other people were doing post camp

(14:43):
or in the later years of it is when, you
know, we started working together and we
started doing a bunch of other things
together.
So he he played it.
He played a big role in different ways.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
You mentioned, you know, throughout the,
throughout this whole series too.
You mentioned, we mentioned Sorcerer's
Safari a lot and I don't know if you've
ever spent five minutes talking about this
place.
I think we just mentioned thinking like
people know what it is or what you know,
but, um, it doesn't exist anymore.
But I think we should take.
Have you ever talked about?

Speaker 2 (15:12):
yeah, we did an episode where we
interviewed mike siegel and and tyler and I
back and they talked about it a lot because
it was the most magical place.
Yeah, and and it really was part of the
foundation of this podcast was Tyler and I
were in the same cabin every year at the
camp.
Basically what it is is like a lot of

(15:33):
people know what Tannin's magic camp is.
Yeah, tannin's is a magic camp that takes
place on a campus.
Yeah, so it's kind of like magic school and
Tannin's is the most incredible thing.
Everybody that goes loves it.
The best magicians come out of it.
So like, yes, it's, it is, but it's a magic
school in the summer.
Yeah, but sorcerer safari.

(15:56):
Let me go back a half step.
In ontario specifically, there's a very big
culture of overnight camp that doesn't
exist everywhere else in the world.
In Ontario, yeah, there's a big like if you
go to I mean anywhere that has Ontario's
landscape.
So there's some places in the States that
have the kind of up North idea, you know,

(16:16):
and going to the country or whatever.
But most cities don't have this Like.
In Vancouver, nobody goes to summer camp.
That's not what people do in their summer.
They don't go to an overnight camp.
So you mix this overnight camp of Ontario
with Hannon's and you end up with
Sorcerer's Safari, which is 150 people up
at a camp, separated by age group in cabins.

(16:39):
This isn't in dorms.
This is in legit cabins, isn't in dorms.
This is in legit cabins and your counselors
are all of canada's most famous magicians
and most well-known magicians.
There's a dozen, 20 or so special guests
that year, ranging from people that are
coming back to someone who they got to
bring in.
And there is you, like, wake up, you go to

(17:02):
breakfast, then everyone goes to card
course, then there's a field activity and
where you're all supposed to be playing
football, but instead everyone's just, you
know, doing card tricks with each other,
and then later there's an elective.
So four magicians line up and they say,
okay, go with this guy.
If you want to learn straight jacket escape,
go with this guy.
If you want to learn spoon bedding, go with
this.

(17:26):
If you want to learn mentalism.
And then you go, and then, after that is,
swim and everyone gets their bathing suit
and goes down to the water and does card
tricks with each other, and then you have
dinner and then you spend time and then
there's an evening show and then, late
night if you're a staff or something,
there's something else, and that's for a
week, and they rent out a gorgeous camp up
and well, that's what I was gonna say is a
big part of it is the actual venue.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, this camp has been in like hollywood
films and the stereotypical summer camp
where there's long cabins and a huge mess,
all and it's I mean we, we.
So sorcerer safari happened on the last
weekend of.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, it would be when all of the camps,
when the camp is done with the people that
actually go to the camp, they would rent
out the camp.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, the kids would actually go to school
a week late.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, it was something like that.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Something like that.
We had a lot of Americans too, but anyways,
great, magical place.
Everybody there was a volunteer.
I volunteered my time there.
I think I went six or seven years.
It was one of the weeks I looked most
forward to.
It was just I mean, I know Ben's nodding
his head right now on the couch Okay, so
from and then on, what did you start doing?
When did you start?

(18:33):
Did you?
You were going to school full time.
You were.
Did you want to do magic full time?
Like what was it?

Speaker 2 (18:38):
So funny enough.
You know I finished.
So camp ended in 2016 and I graduated
university in 16.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
With an honors math degree.
Math degree yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
And it was really funny because around 2010,
2011, 2012, when I was like 16 or 17,
people hired me every now and again for a
gig of synagogue or this or that or
whatever.
And I remember people asking me like, do
you want to be a magician professionally?
And you will not believe what I said.
I said I like magic, but the whole

(19:18):
marketing thing and having a website and
doing this, that has no, I have no interest
in that, which is hysterical, because I'm
like literally the opposite of that right
date was this, jonah, because I have
something no, what about?

Speaker 1 (19:30):
around what year?
Probably 2011 okay, right, oh well, that,
no, that was, that was, that wasn't when it
ended, no, when what ended?
What sorcerer safari ended.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
No, Sorcerer Safari ended in, I think, 2016.
But at that point you were still saying I'm
not really interested, no, so let's say
2011, is when I was like I don't really
care about marketing, I care about, you
know, the magic tricks.
During university, something really
interesting happened, which is at the ends
of high school.
So, 2011, 2012, I was working at a day camp

(20:08):
in Toronto doing like I was kind of a
counselor, kind of doing magic workshops,
kind of doing a bunch of stuff.
And then one camp hired me once, outside of
that, to go do a week of workshops and I
made, like I don't know, $1,500 or
something in a week and I was like what am
I doing, working at this day camp every day
for like $5,000 for the whole summer, when

(20:30):
I could be doing this?
And this magician came to the day camp who
I know who it is now, I'll tell you later
but this magician came to the day camp and
to perform for all the staff and the staff
had to buy tickets to go see the show.
And I was this sour kid and I was like I am,
I cannot believe that the camp director
hired someone else.

(20:52):
He knew that I was a magician I literally
work at the camp teaching magic and he
hired some other guy to do magic.
So I was like I'm not going to the show
Screw that I'm not going.
You didn't know who the magician was, no
idea, I didn't care, I was like I'm not
going.
The next day I started hearing the buzz
that the show was so bad that the camp gave

(21:13):
all the staff their money back on the
ticket and I said, well, wait a second, if
this guy can go to camps and suck and get
paid, for sure he got paid, right.
I'm like, if this guy can go to camps and
suck, I can go to camps and ideally not
suck, but like he still got paid.

(21:34):
Man, you know like I can, I can figure this
out, man, if he's doing this that poorly
and still alive, you know like I can
probably do this.
So I did what anybody else would do when
they didn't know what to do, which is.
I asked my mom and I was like what on earth
do I do?
How do I get into camps?
And she's she's been entrepreneurial a lot.
And she, the next day she had a.

(21:56):
She somehow gathered a list of 150 camp
directors email addresses in Ontario and
that next summer we emailed 150 camp
directors.
I wrote the worst email ever and I did
everything wrong in business with that,
with the whole thing.
But I quoted $1,500 to come to the camp, do

(22:18):
workshops with all the campers, do a show
for the no for a week, for a week, for a
week.
So I'd go for like four days or five days
do workshops, all the campers.
At that point I was too afraid to do a camp
for the no for a week, for a week, for a
week.
So I'd go for like four days or five days
do workshops, all the campers.
At that point I was too afraid to do a camp
wide show.
But I did a staff show workshops with all
the campers and I charged $1,500 for four
or five days and and then camps would be
like, yes, I'm like because you said, yes,

(22:38):
I'm going to make it 1300 because of I was
just, I just didn't know what the hell I
was doing and I booked like five camps, man,
you know like.
So I made like $7,000 going, traveling up
to camps, doing this in like six weeks and
I was like, what was I doing?

Speaker 1 (22:54):
Like what was I doing?
Good on your mom, Sylvia, for giving you
that list.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Nice good memory.
I was like what was I doing?
You know at these, you know, at working at
the day camp I doing, you know at these,
you know at working at a at the day camp.
So year over year, I just expanded and kept
emailing every camp again and be like me
again, you want to do it this year, me
again, you want to do it this year.
And it grew and grew and grew.
And that happened through university, when
I was studying math.
And by the time I graduated university, my

(23:18):
summer was making me 20 K, july and August.
And I was just like why would I?
And all my math friends were all doing math
internships in the summer.
So the combination of me having a summer
that was making me good summer money and my
friends actually having that no one wanted
to hire me to do math.

(23:39):
I didn't really.
I don't even think I really understood the
concept that you go to university to study
something and that still no one wants to
hire you.
Then you have to go and figure it out and
whatever.
I just thought maybe I would be really
hireable with a math degree, which turns
out to be not the case.
And then I just said, fuck, if I can do 20
K in two months, I can probably make this
thing work.

(23:59):
And that was 2016.
And in that year I started doing everything.
So I started doing gigs, I started this
podcast with Tyler and I started producing
public shows with Ben.
So I was just like, let me throw everything
at this and try every possible thing and
sort of see what ends up working.
And what I learned, just as a little

(24:21):
summary, is that everything will work.
You just have to pick the one to work.
It's not like, it's not like I'm going to
do these three things and one will pop off.
It is the thing I work on will work.
So I right.
So for us just to fast forward to now, we
officially stopped doing public ticketed
shows.

(24:41):
We'll maybe do one or two a year, but
instead of two or three a month.
And there's magicians who are very
successful doing public ticketed shows.
Well, maybe do one or two a year, but
instead of two or three a month.
And there's magicians who are very
successful doing public ticketed shows.
But it's my third priority, you know, after
the podcast and the mastermind and then
after gigging and booking out Ben, and then
it's public shows.
So of course, it's not going to be the best
thing ever, but I was a rookie at
entrepreneurship then and I just thought

(25:03):
one of these things will pop off and that's
what I'll do, and that's basically when I
got serious about all three of them.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
You know I have a just today.
I was listening.
It was an episode with Gazzo that you put
out in 2017.
And you I'm gonna throw this date out April
13th 2017, where I think it was your first
multi-magician marketing marketing offering.
It was called fantastic gigs and where to
find fantastic gigs and where to find them.

(25:30):
Yeah, was that your first time?
You're like I can teach magicians to, kind
of.
Was that the?
First one or it was green.
It was, you know, you were green, I did
something I believe before that.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Let me see if I can look it up here.
But I did something I believe before that.
Let me see if I can look it up here.
But I did something I believe before that,
which was you know the thing is is online,
you're just afraid to sell stuff.
You know I was.
You know it was like afraid, like what if
people don't like it, whatever.
So I think before that I ran a week long

(26:03):
free training called four gigs in four days,
which I don't have the exact date of, but
it was around there, around there.
I see that.
What was the date that you had there?

Speaker 1 (26:16):
I had April 17th, I know Sorry, april 13th
2017.
You start?
So, I guess that may be first, because what
I'm seeing is I created this group.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
It sounded like it to me.
I created this group October 3rd 2017.
So yeah, I don't even yeah, fantastic gigs
and where to find them.
Then I did four gigs in four days and then
after that, I did God, what was it called?
The Magician's Guide to Getting Gigs?

Speaker 1 (26:42):
So yeah, around 2017 is when I when I
started doing it but right before we dive
into that because I I mean what you're
doing right now, though I really want to
get into this mastermind thing that you're
doing but I just want to talk about your
parents a little bit.
Josh and sylvia, how do you remember their
names?
How did you?
How did you?
I find it somewhere.
No, no, no, I just remember uh, you talking
them, but you've never talked about, were

(27:05):
they?
I mean, you graduated with honors, with a
math degree, and I'm sure both your parents,
being Jewish, are like successful and they,
you know, they have the business ethic you
have.
But when you told them, there was a point
where you told them I want to be and I want
to try this, like was it before graduation,
after, like, what did that look like for

(27:25):
your parents?
Were they supportive?

Speaker 2 (27:27):
So I'll tell a little story here, but first
I'm going to go back a minute, which is
that both of my parents have
entrepreneurially done real quirky stuff.
My dad used to work at a store called,
which you may remember, a store called the
it Store.
Do you know what that is?

(27:48):
I love the it Store, right.
So my dad worked at the it Store for about
10 years before he made his own version of
that called Make them Laugh, which lasted
about six years, and my mom worked at it
Store head office.
So think about this quirky place.
It's like they're selling lava lamps and
T-shirts with things on them and weird

(28:11):
board games.
It's like this dark store and little
plushies just like the weirdest stuff,
right.
So they both worked there.
My dad then went on to be a wholesaler for
Halloween Halloween stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then my mom started a company with her
two brothers called Laugh Rat, where they

(28:34):
made it looks like medication but it's
actually candy, so they're a novelty
product.
So it would be called like Dadville, like
take two, give it to your dad and tell him
to shut the hell up.
Or, like you know, like one was called like
dadville, like take two, give it to your
dad and tell him to shut the hell up.
Or, like you know, um, like one was called,
like fuck it all, and it'd be like at the
it store too.
They sold, yeah, at many different, many
different ones of these stores so they both

(28:56):
did really quirky things like that.
Now my dad does something similar.
My mom works for a coffee company but like
during growing up, I remember walking into
school my mom being on the phone and being
like, well, they ordered 12 pallets of
Hornitos, so they have to get the Hornitos
and I'm just like what it was like a joke
about Doritos or whatever it's like.
So like they've both been in this weird

(29:16):
entertainment-y space for a while.
So I think like it's no surprise that I got
into magic and something sort of
interesting and quirky.
I remember conversations with both my
parents.
I remember on the phone, in a car ride with
my fraternity, talking to my parents.
I was in the back and someone was telling
me and they were asking me like what I'm
going to do next?
And I was like I think I'm going to try

(29:36):
magic and my mom just was losing it.
She was just losing it about that.
I think she thought it was crazy, and
especially, you know, after having gone
through the whole degree and it was
difficult, and my dad wanted me to.
When I spoke to him, he wanted me to get an
advanced degree in math, which you know, I

(29:59):
understand from their perspective that it's
like you get more degrees, become more
employable, whatever.
But I think if you don't know what you're
doing, if you don't know for what you're
getting the degree for which I barely knew
why I was getting the math degree.
I was just like, math is interesting, I
have to go to university.
So like I guess this is what I'm going to
do.
It's really silly to just get an advanced
degree with no path and no goal.

(30:20):
And I have to thank my brother, cause my
parents were fighting yeah, my parents were
sort of fighting with me a little bit about
it and my brother said, like give him a
year.
Like give him a year.
If it doesn't work, he can always go and
get another degree and go get a job
somewhere.
He's like 22 or something you know, so just
give him a year to figure it out.
And in a year that was 2016, just, things

(30:43):
started working.
I started doing shows with Ben at Dave and
Busters, which was every Friday and
Saturday, two shows a night.
And then I was booking gigs and then I was
doing the podcast, and then I, you know, I
moved from my parents' house to Toronto
with just magic money, right, just like
nondescript, just money from stuff, you
know, and I think they had seen, they had

(31:07):
seen me work and they just said, yeah, I
guess, give it a war.
And now they, now they like, like my mom,
just my mom does my taxes, and she's like I
don't know what's going on, you know yeah,
you're not.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
They're seeing you crush it.
I think I remember telling you you tell me,
at sorcerer safari your dad was like
something about like he's like your jobs,
you're not a magician, you're in sales, or
something like that.
Like you remember your dad saying like your
job is not magic, your job is sales.
I believe that.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
But I don't remember.
I don't remember that conversation but you
know I think over time I learned that
that's true, right, right.
Is that, like you know you're the doing of
the magic is the fun part you know?
Like is the is the icing on the cake, it is
the getting of gigs and like that's the
that's.
There's plenty of really great magicians
that don't work and so, like, being a

(31:57):
really great magician is not the part that
it takes to be a successful magician, and
that also took me a long time to learn.
Is it like getting better at magic or
adding one trick?
Obviously it's important and like your show
is the product.
But in every industry we know it's not
always the number one best musician that is

(32:20):
the most popular.
It's not the person who spent the most time
learning guitar and can do the most
complicated scales.
You know that can do it.
There's a lot more to it, to being
successful in every industry.
So I learned that slowly.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
And then, when did this like passion for
marketing?
Is it when you were like it kind of became
like, well, if I'm going to do this full
time, I need to sell myself and I need to?
Or were you trying a bunch of stuff, you
know, throwing spaghetti, seeing what
sticks?
Where did you?
Did you, were you reading a lot of
self-help books or like marketing books
when?
Where did that unlock?

Speaker 2 (33:00):
in the tail end of university, when I was
starting to have doubts that I was going to
be doing, I started, funny enough, to go
back to the beginning of this podcast,
getting really into podcasts, because
podcasts one of my flavors about it,
especially at the time, is like podcasts
sort of surrounds the field of education,

(33:22):
so, like where other forms of media, like
watching videos on YouTube, may not be all
about education.
Like, I found that podcasts were really
about education, or at least the ones that
I was listening to, and there was a couple
of different podcasts that I listened to at
the time that made a big impact in what I

(33:45):
was doing and learning.
So the first one was a podcast by Pat Flynn
which I believe still exists.
He's not a magician and it's called the
Smart Passive Income Podcast and he's
basically talking about making money online
and great, great podcast, really
interesting and it just helped me start
thinking about making money online.

(34:07):
So I listened to Pat Flynn's the smart
passive income podcast I listened to.
There was a podcast called the successful
performer, cast by Chris Shepard, which was
another podcast that a magician did.
There was the Magician's Business podcast,
which has since been bought by Ziv Raviv.

(34:28):
So there was a handful of podcasts that I
was listening to at the time that were just
giving me ideas in terms of marketing and
getting me excited about potentially about
the fact that I could do marketing and that
I could sell and do this and do that.
And I think one thing that I don't talk
about so much is that because those

(34:50):
podcasts helped me understand the idea of,
like making money on the internet.
I knew that if I had a big audience, I
could sell something.
I didn't know what it was, but I knew that
like the way to make money.
Now I know you can also run ads, but, like
you also, if you have a big market, if you
have a big audience of people that follow

(35:11):
you, then you can sell something.
So one of the reasons why I started the
podcast is I just was listening to enough
of these marketing online business.
Whatever things to say.
I have no idea what I'm going to sell, but
if I start a podcast and build an audience
at some point in the future, I will have an

(35:34):
audience to sell something.
And early on I got like affiliate links
from magic websites.
Like I got an affiliate link from like
vanishing into websites.
So if someone bought through me, then I
would get a kickback, you know.
Or if they bought from this magic thing
through me, then I would get a kickback.
So I tried a lot of different versions of
these things.
I also made a t-shirt, a Discourse in Magic

(35:56):
t-shirt, which 60 people on the planet have
and I still see it.
Every now and again at a convention someone
brings it out.
But I had the foresight to know that, with
a big audience, I would be able to sell
something and I knew that I didn't yet know
what that was.
So I tried many things on the journey and,

(36:22):
honestly, when this really kicked off, I
mean I've subscribed to the thinking of
online business and marketing, of learning
out loud, which is like if I just share
what I learned as I learn it, people will
really listen and like it and then I can,
you know, charge for implementation.
So those early courses was basically me
selling that system that my mom did for me
for summer camps and saying, hey, you guys
do it and like, over the course of six or
seven years doing summer camps, me learning

(36:45):
how to raise prices and how to send emails
and how to use software to do it and all
that stuff.
That's what those early courses were about.
The second jump of the marketing stuff is I
just sort of a long winded answer, but is?
In COVID I had sold a couple of marketing
things here and there.
I wrote a book called your First Five Gigs

(37:07):
that I sold pre-COVID, just before COVID,
and, and again, I guess you can get it
somewhere, but not really.
I mean message me if you want it.
But and In COVID, when COVID hit, all of
the gigs were canceled.
Ben and I were each doing gigs separately.
Covid, the Toronto Magic Company became me
booking Ben and I and not just us booking

(37:28):
ourselves separately in Toronto Magic
Company doing public shows.
But in COVID the government said we'll pay
you a couple hundred dollars a week because
you have no job.
And the way it worked in Canada was if you
make a certain amount of money from your
work, then we won't pay you.
So it was this funny thing where it was
like, okay, well, if I put effort into
making some money, then I'm not going to

(37:49):
get the free money from the government.
And so like, what do I do here?
Do I try to make other money or do I just
try to get paid from the government?
And Ben said to me like bro.
We have an opportunity here to sit and do
nothing for who knows how long and just
enjoy a well-earned break and just relax or
whatever.
We're doing a lot of public shows the time.

(38:10):
And then I said I feel like everyone's
going to go to sleep and this is a really
good time to do the opposite and go really
hard.
And I started.
We started doing virtual shows and I just
started teaching every possible thing that
I knew in little workshops for through the
podcast I'd run a workshop about the
podcast, these little nine minute tidbits

(38:30):
of gold.
Yes.
But also I would do a workshop where I
would say, hey, I'm doing a workshop
teaching you how to set up your video and
background or do a virtual show.
Or hey, here's a software I use for virtual
show, I'm just going to teach you guys what
it is and how to use it.
Or here's how I price my virtual shows and
here's how to do it.
And from that again I knew maybe I would be
selling some help.

(38:51):
But from that people ask me.
They're like do you teach this stuff?
Can I hire you when, or whatever.
And then that was early on in the podcast I
launched something called MAGIC M-A-G-I-Q.
Magicians Accountability Group in
Quarantine and the idea was like I'm going
to teach some stuff, but mostly we're just
going to all be pumped together that we can
like work on magic and book virtual shows

(39:12):
and record stuff and like just do things.
So that was the second real jump, when Ben
and I had some really great years in COVID.
I was like, let me teach all of this stuff.
And then it transitioned into in-person and
then me teaching that and more and more and
more so like the mastermind is only, I
guess, 2024, coming on 25.

(39:33):
The mastermind is only three and a bit
years old.
The coaching is about four and a bit years
old in the format that it has now.
I've done books, I've done courses, I've
done video course.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Yeah, yeah I've done one.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Setting yourself up, you were building your
who knows right, like who knew that, but
just the format that it is now has is
basically three to four years old from
covid when it started to to build out.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
If there's one thing I retain from all of
this is just do the thing, just do the
fucking thing, do it, just do it.
I don't know if you ever talk about how
successful this mastermind project or
business is, but you know, we, I've reached
out in the last month or a couple of months
or so to tell you on my side, from my angle,

(40:23):
the waves that I've been feeling not being
part of it.
But you know, I have friends and whatever,
and you're absolutely you guys are killing
it.
You've created something special and
there's.
There's been all my whole career in magic
there's been, like, I think, my first one
the internet had just come out, I bought,
like Randy Charax, millionaire magician or
something.
It was a course like that and there's

(40:44):
always been courses on, you know, promising
you these things double your salary, 3X, 4X,
whatever.
And that's what these programs do is they
promise you things.
But I'm here to say this is not an ad.
This is not why we're doing this podcast,
but I really feel like I had.
We had to talk about how successful it is
and I've had, you know so so much

(41:05):
successful that I'll tell the story that I
told you that before I first called you is
that as Canadian magicians, you know, Wes
and I we've been busy forever.
We've been busy.
November, December is our time crushing it
shows.
Let's go with it, Always come in.
And I am a little bit ashamed I've told you
this before to say that I have never,

(41:26):
besides business cards in a website, never
advertised, never cold called, never.
And I know this is is it's crazy to think
of, but I've always.
But I was, I've managed to get successful,
you know, I think a bit more than my peers
and I could never talk about me not
advertising.
I'm on the yellow pages, never online,

(41:47):
because it was embarrassing.
I just had a good show and you know I
delivered a good show.
That's what I did as my marketing, you know.
And now this season we were seeing the
calendar come and I'm like I call Wes, I'm
like how are you?
November, December gigs?
And he's in Toronto and I'm in Ottawa.
Toronto's 4 million people, Ottawa's 1
million, Montreal is 2 million people away.

(42:08):
That's our big, like, you know, trifecta of
like cities.
And he's like not, not good, I don't know
what's going on.
It's the first time this ever happens.
And as I started digging, I saw that the
the gigs were going to the magicians who
subscribe to your mastermind.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, and you know who they are.
The ones in Montreal and Ottawa you know
who they are.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, we know who they are and and and and
not necessarily that they're they're.
They're better or hard when we're harder,
working harder.
But it's times are changing people.
The way people book magicians is different.
Now you told me a great thing that really
stuck with me and it was like before.
It was like, oh, we had a magician.
Let's say, I do a corporate party for you

(42:47):
know price what I was coopers.
We had a magician a couple years ago who
was really good.
People really like the idea.
And then the booker is gonna have gonna
have this company.
What was his name?
Oh, I don't remember.
The booker still has the idea of magician
in their head.
So they're gonna get on their phone and go
magician Toronto and boom, boom and boom,
boom.
And then, like, they'll see that website
with the magicians, your promotional
materials in order, looking great, exactly

(43:09):
what they need, what the masterminds taught
them, and they'll book better than that.
Oh, no, I got this guy.
And if they ever say, did you ever get the
name of the magician?
No, no, I got a guy here, people like the
now booking, now, now, through my hands,
through my fingers, and if they fall into
that little kind of wormhole of like, oh,
trying to search the mastermind people I'm
talking about around our city are going to

(43:29):
get those gigs.
Which is crazy, which goes so much to say
about what you've put in place.
Do you want to talk a little bit about not
necessarily like numbers, but like what
you've?

Speaker 2 (43:41):
accomplished.
I'll talk about a couple of different
things.
The first is you know your situation goes
back to what we were talking about before,
about quality of magic versus you know
working on the business, which is like
you've always been really good at magic,
you had a really good show and you've had a

(44:01):
couple of agents pick you up and book you
and you've got a couple other people pick
you up and book you.
And this is this like really tough
dichotomy in the arts, which is like you
have to be good to get booked and to get
rebooked.
But being good is not necessarily the thing.

(44:21):
That.
And and like you know for me, for me it's
not about like you could just be really
good, get booked word of mouth people
you're like cool, that's fine.
The challenge is, on what pedal do I press
on when the numbers don't look like what I
want them to?
And that is a skill.
It just is a skill that needs to be learned.

(44:43):
So it's like, if I'm like you know, I was
once chatting with a magician, one that you
know, and he told me next year I'm going to
do 180K.
I said what did you do this year?
He said like 130K.
I'm like don't man, what are you going to
do to make an additional 50K?
And he's like oh, I don't know, I'm just
saying I want 180K, no-transcript, those

(45:25):
are the skills that you know you need to
learn.
So I think there's a lot to it.
Talking about maybe some of the marketing
things and and and the mastermind like look,
mastermind's about three things.
It's about generating leads, making sales
and the operations of the business.
So, generating leads there's a lot of

(45:46):
different places where leads come from.
There's all of the inbound versions, like
Google ads or SEO or gig sites or people
inquiring with you.
There's the outbound versions, which is
like cold calls or cold emails or DMing
people on LinkedIn or whatever.
And then there's the past client
relationships.
All of these things are important and you

(46:06):
can make your business out of one of them
if you want, but also if you build out the
systems to make it work.
If you've got ads running and you've got
SEO working and you've got all these things
working in your favor, well then, start
cold emailing, you know.
If you've got a great relationship with
your past clients and that's helping you
get rebooked all the time, amazing, start
running ads, you know.
So the leads is about really like all of

(46:28):
that.
We've classified every way a magician can
get leads and every way the magician can
get leads we have trainings on and not all
of it.
For me, right, one of the cool things about
the mastermind is some of these people that
are doing two and three hundred, four
hundredK a year in magic, like they're
teaching what they're doing right.
So every way to get leads.
That's in there.
And then there's the sales.
The sales is how much you charge, it's what

(46:55):
your sales pipeline looks like like, how
you talk to them on the phone, what the
follow-ups are like, what the emails are
like, all of those bits.
Then there's the promo material and how to
make yourself look really good, and again,
those are elements that you wouldn't need
to know Like.
You don't need to know that what your
website needs to look like.
You make a website, you put a bunch of
images on it and you're like okay, whatever,
now I have a website, people can find me
now.

(47:16):
But it's like yeah, there's people whose
jobs it is.
They get paid hundreds of thousands of
dollars a year for big tech companies to
increase the conversion rate on a website,
like the number of people that fill out the
form, by five percent or ten percent, which
means for a hundred people that go on the
website, instead of five filling out the
form, ten fill out the form, but think
about it.
That's a difference of like ten thousand
dollars for us right number of people that

(47:38):
actually choose to fill out the form.
So these kinds of things, what the
marketing should look like, how much you
should charge, and how much you should
charge is based on where you're at, where
you're going, the marketing material that
you have, the number of leads that you have,
the market that you're in.
So it's not a hey everybody, you should be
$3,000.
Like.
It depends on a lot of of information you
know you do corporates and schools and

(47:58):
those are different.
You get paid different things to do those.
And then the last is systems, which is, as
time goes on, these things get out of hand.
Like if all your systems are working, I got
like a thousand leads this year.
Like a thousand people inquired this year
that I cannot handle sending emails.
I cannot handle do it.

(48:20):
I need a CRM and a way to keep all of that
organized and remember who booked, who
didn't book, who almost booked, who's.
I never want to talk to them again.
I need someone else to manage that.
For me, I'm not the one sending the emails,
because if I send a thousand emails, I
learned during COVID just a little side
tangent during COVID I'd be on pitching a
virtual show and an inquiry would come in

(48:42):
for a virtual show and I had two other
calls coming up.
And by the time I got off all these calls
and I called up there's a back they said,
sorry, we found someone already.
Wow.
And I went oh, it would pay to just have
someone sitting by the fricking desk to
email them.
If all they did was just email them and say
you got it right, got it.
General will call you in 20 minutes.

(49:02):
You know, okay, perfect, receive, here's
some promo, take a look at it.
He'll call you in 30.
Like, just to have someone standing there,
you know, would would make a big difference.
That was when I started the hiring.
So anyways, for systems you need some sort
of CRM and way to be organized and all the
software.
At some point basically around 150K you
should probably think about hiring someone.

(49:22):
And then the last, which is kind of
important, but it just is the last in this
world of things, is work-life balance,
which is there's a lot of things I just
named.
There's a lot of things to work on.
You're doing magic shows, you're doing
sales calls, you're sending emails, you're
working on a website, whatever.
You gotta make sure that this isn't like
you have three jobs right, like we're here.
We're doing this because we get to not be

(49:45):
working a nine to five job somewhere.
That means you got to make sure that.
Put your vacations in your calendar, you
know.
You got to make sure that you well, we've
got something called a 10 hour rule, which
is like, if you're working for more than 10
hours on in your business every week,
you're doing something wrong, okay.
So if you're, if you're working for 20

(50:07):
hours, whatever you're doing, automate it.
Hire someone to do it If it's working.
If it's not working, stop doing it.
Okay, it's not worth your time.
So we have these different things to make
sure that it doesn't get out of control.
We don't want to wake up, work eight hours,
then get ready and then go do a show and
then come back and then do that same thing.
That's not what this whole thing is all
about.
So those are all the elements of the
mastermind.
And when the mastermind started I know I'm
going a little rant here, but when the
mastermind started, it was just like me

(50:27):
teaching the stuff that I know.
But what's been really amazing about the
group that has really surprised me and been
incredible is that, as time goes on, if it
was 90% Jonah's ideas and 10% other
people's ideas, as time goes on and the
group grows and people have different
expertise, it's now come closer to like 40%

(50:49):
Jonah's ideas and 60% other people's ideas
and we got people that are totally crushing
it that say, hey, here's my exact system
for SEO.
Copy it.
Hey, this is I do school shows.
I do two shows during the day and then I do
a show at night for the whole family.
Copy it.
Hey, here's what I do school shows.
I do two shows during the day and then I do
a show at night for the whole family.
Copy it.
Hey, here's what I use to book $10,000 a
month from Bark, one of the gig websites.
Copy it.
And all of a sudden we have everybody's

(51:11):
playbooks for all of the best things that
everybody does, and when someone has a
challenge, instead of me saying, hey, call
me, let me help, I'm like bring it to the
group, call and you're going to get 15
great ideas about what to do about this
thing and from people from all over that do
these kinds of things.

(51:32):
All over, like right now, we've been
jamming on this idea of like how to get
Google reviews after a gig, how to get a
Google review.
So for the last, like maybe six months ago,
I came up with this system called the
post-show call, or after the show, you call
the client, you talk about it, you got all
these different things you say and then you
ask for the Google review.
I have that, the system of how to do that,

(51:52):
on the Discourse in Magic website.
Everyone can get it.
It's for free.
Just scroll down, you tap it, it brings up
your google review.
So people come up to you afterwards they
say, dang, the show was great.
Say what'd you like about it.
Oh, you were so funny.
I know this is crazy.
Can you tap this and leave a review on
google?
That'd be really awesome.

(52:12):
Okay, then we learned this idea that after
the show, instead of asking for a review at
on the stage, you ask people to come say hi,
because if they come say hi, you have a
swarm of people around you that are there
to say hi.
You can ask each of them to do a review If
you do it from the stage, no one's going to
remember to do it.
So all of a sudden, people went from
getting zero reviews to one review per show

(52:34):
to five or six reviews per show.
And this is all because of the community.
If it was just me, everyone would have got
their one review per show with their post
event call.
Now everyone's getting five or six
five-star reviews per show.
So it's these kinds of things.
That has really surprised me about it is
how much of a community the whole thing is

(52:55):
and how much people are relying on each
other and helping each other and people.
I'll talk to somebody and go oh yeah, I was
on a two hour call with this guy in the
mastermind, like a couple, you know, a
couple of days ago and it's just, it's
awesome.
So I'll share one stat that I learned, just
to wrap up this part, or if there's
anything else you want to ask, please do.
But you know, the one stat that I learned
is that we track revenue.

(53:15):
So every month people fill in what their
monthly revenue was from magic bookings,
because we got to make sure the numbers are
going up.
If the numbers aren't going up, I'm doing
something wrong.
They're doing something wrong.
Someone's doing something wrong and I get
to see the pulse of what's going on and if
someone all of a sudden drops, I call them.
I say, hey, dude, what's going on?
You know, like we got to maintain certain
caliber of people.
What are you doing, dude?

(53:36):
You got to pick up the pace.
Right From this year, from the last 12
months, so I guess from November 30th back
to old December 1st, the average revenue is
$107,000.
So the average person in the mastermind is
doing over $100K a year and the mastermind

(53:56):
itself is like 40 some odd people.
So it's like over $5 million a year of
people doing these strategies and
implementing this stuff, which is awesome.
It's awesome that this is now an army of
people that are sharing their best ideas
with each other.
And I'll say one last thing about it,
because you mentioned all these courses of
people's having these like guaranteed.
You're going to make this.

(54:17):
You're going to make that.
I have three guarantees with working.
First guarantee is a two-week taco
guarantee, which is join us for two weeks.
If you hate it, I'll give you a refund and
I'll give you 20 bucks to go buy yourself
some tacos.
Second guarantee is a love it or leave it
guarantee.
Look, it's a community.
We want to make sure you like us.
We want to make sure we like you.
Join us for 30 days.
If, for some reason, one of us decides it's

(54:39):
not a fit, for whatever reason, no problem.
End right there.
You paid your first month, all is good.
The third guarantee is the crazy one the
whole entire price of working with me.
If you don't make that back in the first
six months of working together and then
some I will pause your payments and work
with you for free until you do.

(54:59):
I guarantee that the program is ROI
positive for you and if it's not, we will
be working together for free until it is.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
No matter who you are as a magician.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
No matter who you are, we have a small list
of things.
You need to have completed this and this
and this.
But I've now had so many people come
through it that I know I'm like if you do
this and if you do this, it will work.
I know that it will work.
If you do this and if you do this, it will
work, I know that it will work.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Yeah, you know, I've never.
I've never been like.
I'm not an educated person.
All I know is magic.
I started right out of high school and my
career blew up.
I have never, like I told you earlier, I've
never had to like work for it and listening
to this podcast, the little, what do you
call them?
The nine minute clips?
The magic appetizers?
The magic, the magic appetizers.

(55:43):
The magic appetizers.
You know, at first, when I started
listening to the podcast, I was going all
right, colin cloud ben simon david.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Skip the short ones.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
I'm just looking for names because there's
300.
I'm like scrolling and looking for names,
right, and then I kind of got really
addicted to it and I just let it started
letting it run.
Yeah, and from the just the in between
magic appetizers.
You know, as I was mentioning earlier, my
november december was like my december.
Really.
My december was, looking, you know, empty

(56:08):
and I was like, and just by what we're
talking about and because I guess, because
I'm getting kind of, you know, inundated
with just like information, with magicians
and business and all that, I just did a few
things that you recommended and I sold for
like $15,000 worth of shows in one night of
sitting there.

(56:28):
Yeah, one email.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
One email.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it is very, it's very, motivating, it's
very it's.
I mean, I hats off to you man Like my
friend who's in Ottawa and he was like he
couldn't have been making over, you know,
40, 50,000.
And now he's like killing it.
He's everywhere, at every gig doing the
thing, hiring an assistant and all this.

(56:50):
So it's very, it's very amazing what you've
done and I can really see the worth in
having something I didn't really understand,
like the hive mind mentality, the
mastermind.
Now that you explained it, it is, it's,
it's a little clearer, it's, it's, it's
amazing.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
It is an incredible community and
everyone's got each other's backs.
I just sent an email about this but, like
you know, a big chunk of them live in in
the States and you know America's kind of
funny.
Like in Canada, like for you to move from
Toronto to Montreal is like the biggest
life decision you ever make in your life.
You know, in the States, for you to move
from one state to another, people do it on
a Tuesday.

(57:28):
You know it doesn't matter for them, right,
and in now people someone's like hey, you
got to, we got a gig.
Anybody want it?
$3,000 for a corporate event.
I'm booked, booked.
Does anyone want it?
Someone's like yeah, it's a three-hour
drive for me.
It's like okay, perfect, here you take it.
You know.
So, like these kinds of things happen,
which is crazy.
I never thought that this kind of thing
would happen.
But it's just people looking out for each

(57:49):
other.
Right, there's two guys that have been to
mass marriott for about under for under a
year and they're both at like 90 something
thousand right for the year and one of them
says posting the other.
They're like setting a challenge, like
first one to get there, like the other one
owes them a cake or whatever.
So now they're racing each other and
sharing tactics and whatever you know to
try to get there.
So, like the camaraderie is awesome, the

(58:10):
information is awesome.
Like we know how well people do on average
in the mastermind.
It takes eight to 12 months to add 50K to
your yearly revenue and that's consistent.
So then again the next year and again the
next year.
That is basically what it looks like,

(58:30):
because it's a.
It's a community of people that are all got
your back and, aside from the information,
we do planning, we make sure we're working
on the right stuff at the right time.
Like there's a lot of elements to make sure
we got.
It's not just me, there's other coaches
that are in it that I've hired to help me,
help people and and and and help people
crush it.
So it's awesome.
It's the coolest thing I've ever made by

(58:51):
far.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Amazing and you're chilling, crushing it.
A big thing.
I wanted to and I'm remembering now my my,
my segue here was was I've read a book.
Uh, cause, I was a a smoker, I was a heavy
cigarette smoker and I read a book called
easy way to quit smoke it to stop smoking
by alan carr, and the techniques in this
book he addresses the things you know every
smoker in the world have the same, like 10

(59:14):
or 12 excuses why they love it or they
won't be able to.
Yeah, but for me it's different because,
because, because the same, he studied
smokers and everybody has the same thing
and I found that your appetizers and magic
and hearing you know the ways from the
mastermind and all that it works the same.
The book, every time you think of like yeah,

(59:35):
but this for me, and you turn the page and
he's like, right now, you're probably
thinking, but, but, but the page, and he's
like right now, you're probably thinking,
but you're like, he's like you're not alone,
and that's how he does it and for you, a
couple times I, I'm gonna be, but I'll be
very vulnerable here.
But you said something, I think it was
during one of the podcasts and it was about
ego and I was like I.
I was like, yes, that that's.

(59:57):
That's been my problem with marketing or
getting out there or just doing the thing,
or cold emails or cold calls or whatever.
There's like a lot of us have this weird
this, like you know, even if you make
because I've been making a good salary with
magic for a very long time so I'm like I'm
set, I'm coasting, I don't need, I don't
need the help I'm, I'm good, I'm doing, my

(01:00:17):
set, my, my bit, my partners, you know my,
my like, my, my business and all that, my
structure, whatever it's already done.
And then you're like most magicians, they
have a little chip on their shoulder of
like, oh, I don't need help, or I'm known,
or I'm doing, why would I want?

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
And you went to teach me that, if you just
push that aside a little bit, like people
are so it's because, let me tell you, it's
because in your gut, you still believe that
the way to be a successful magician is by
being really entertaining and really good
at magic.
That's why and that's the biggest demon of
this industry is people being like I'm just

(01:00:55):
going to crush this gig and that's how I'll
get more gigs, and like maybe, maybe it may
happen for you Depends on if you perform
for a room full of CEOs and you crush it
Totally.
If you perform for a company and everybody
in the room just worked for the company,
none of them are going to hire you.
So you got to be able to figure out.
You know you perform for a room full of
kids and with the principal that hired you,

(01:01:16):
like maybe the principal will refer you but
maybe not and none of the kids are going to
hire you.
You know, maybe for a birthday party or
something.
But like it's even when we think about the
best, like David Blaine.
David Blaine doesn't run Google ads to book

(01:01:36):
him, Right, but he did hustle to get on a
TV show like that, to get his own TV show,
I'm sure was an insane amount of hustle and
grind and work and whatever, and like
that's the message about this stuff is our
ego is like.
Our ego says two things about this.
The first is it says I don't really need

(01:01:56):
the businessy stuff, I'll just I'm doing
good and I'll just keep at, I'll just keep
getting better.
And the other thing which is so funny is
people say I'm good, but I for sure want to
grow, but not yet.
Oh, my God, I hear this all the time, and
Smoker is a great example.

(01:02:17):
Right, I want to quit, just not right now.
You know I want to quit, Just I just don't.
I just don't want to quit, just not right
now.
You know I want to quit, Just I just don't.
I just don't get over the holidays.
Exactly how could I possibly quit now?
And in two months, you know, I'll be able
to quit and like those kinds of things,
it's, it's our, it's our ego, it's our body,
Like you know, reaching out and trying to,
like you know, be like no, you're staying

(01:02:39):
in your comfort zone, please.
It's crazy out there.
Stay in your comfort zone.
It's way better in here, and I get it.
This stuff is scary.
I spend more money on coaches, masterminds
and membership than I ever thought I would
make in a year.

(01:03:00):
You know, Like, think about how crazy that
is.
Think about how crazy.
Wait, repeat that I spend more per year on
coaching and masterminds, Meaning he gave
people to coach you yes, Coaches, and I
ever thought that I would make in a year?
Wow, I just wired someone $20 thousand

(01:03:23):
dollars to join a membership you to join
them and it's it's a one week event.
Yeah, I've heard about those.
Yeah, it's a one week event.
Yeah, and I learned that, oh my god, it is
about education and implementation and

(01:03:45):
surrounding yourself with the right people.
That's what it is, man, that nobody ever
got secretly really good and they didn't
learn how to do it from other people.
And I learned from people who are magicians.
And I learned from people who are coaches.
And I learned from people who are just
general entrepreneurs and, like, like you
said about the smoking, like every worry

(01:04:08):
and qualm and feeling I have other people
have had and they figured it out.
So I can do it the hard way, which is take
five years, feel this thing not grow
Eventually.
Try this, try that, try this.
Or I can have someone who I paid a whole
bunch of money stare me in the face and say,
here's the answer Just do it Right.

(01:04:31):
So these people I am paying dollars to save
years, and that's what people in the
mastermind do.
When I interviewed, when I did an interview
with Bao, who's in the mastermind, who
killing it?
He said point blank.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
He said this saved me four years it just
saved me four years of bad.
That's what my, my, my friend said as well.
He's like, yeah, it saves you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Yeah, I mean just just that is crazy
anyways, all of that, to say that, like I
practice what I preach, I buy lots of
education and communities and membership
and all that Because, like for me, it's
about information and it's about
surrounding yourself with people that are
doing way better than you so that you can
go.
Ah, I understand.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
So you know, they say show me your five
best friends.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
You're the average of the five people
you're talking to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
You're the average right.
I've heard that a lot on this podcast and
sometimes you know these things, but it's
nice to be reminded.
It's nice to be reminded over and over and
over, and I'm trying to shift.
I'm working on that right now, surrounding
myself with people that are successful or
that they love a certain way, or that are

(01:05:42):
ambitious, or whatever it is.
But if there's one thing that came out is
this there's one thing I wanted to tell you
which hasn't come up yet.
I thought it was going to, I thought I was
going to be able to steer the conversation
in this way, but in preparation for this
interview, I had an hour long chat with
your parents.
I knew it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
I knew it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
And Josh Ben connected us.
I knew it.
I knew it and Josh Ben connected us.
I knew it.
I knew about the 150 camp emails.
And do you remember what your first
corporate event was For who?

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
For my neighbor.

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
What was the company?

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Accounting.
It was an accounting company.
Hard time controllers yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
I have all this, I have Nanny's name, I
have all this stuff, but a big thing that
out of all the notes I had like three pages
of notes out of all the notes, I want to
take one thing to you know, in your
parents' eyes, when you came up to them and
you were like I want to do this, your mom's
not, we'll give you a couple of years,
whatever.
And they're like there's no getting up at
10 AM.
You know, no getting up If you're going to

(01:06:38):
be in our house doing the thing.
And one thing they really had to, they
really wanted, they really wanted to
highlight was that your work ethic.
You know your work ethic, there at 8am, at
your desk, and sometimes you wouldn't go
for dinner, you'd bring your plate up at
your computer and work because you were
doing a thing.
So work ethic is a lot to do with it.
I mean, maybe that's drive, maybe that's

(01:06:58):
ambition, but the work ethic.
Have you found that you're able to tweak
people's mentality around the work ethic to
be more successful?

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
First, of all that's so awesome, we call my
parents.
I knew there was something I was like no
way you remember their names.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
That's so funny they were in.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Mexico.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Oh, you called them in Mexico.
Yeah, they had.
Like they were at a swingers convention,
and your dad listens to all of these, by
the way I know, I know he listens to every
episode.

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
it's very nice, you know, I think I like
it's always kind of a mystery to me because
I have a couple views.
The first is I think you have to learn how
to work.
Like you don't know what working hard is
until you work hard and then, and then the
five years later version of you is like he

(01:07:43):
didn't know, he wasn't really working hard,
he didn't really know what he was doing.
So I think you have to learn how to work.
I think that the why of why you're doing
what you're doing is the most important
element to how you work on stuff, Like it

(01:08:05):
was such a good example you bringing up
that quitting smoking thing.
Because it's like you have to have a reason.
You have to have a reason, and if you don't
have a reason, then this it no amount of
anything is going to help unless you're
like I need to for whatever I mean, your
magic started to reject.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
unless you're like I need to, for whatever
I mean for magic.
Sorry to interject, but for magic wouldn't
there be only three, for either money or
fame, or to make people happy?
It's not as.
It's not as simple as that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
Like you know, imagine that my parents told
me you have one year to make this work,
right, Okay, well, now my reason of getting
to a number that's good enough and having
being successful enough is, like they have
to, kind of, I have to have their approval
or I have to be allowed, like they have to
permiss me to do this and not be on my tail

(01:08:55):
to go and do some math job or whatever.
So I'm like running away from a math job
and running towards magic and wanting to be
entrepreneurial and like.
So in that case, it's like to prove to
myself and them that I can do this Right.
So like it's not just like I want to be
rich, I want to be famous, I want to be
good at tricks.
There's something, there's someone's voice

(01:09:18):
somewhere sometime that is here.
That is what you're.
It's what they call either the carrot or
the stick, right, you're either running to
the carrot or you're running away from the
stick, right.
So it's like one of those two things is
what is motivating you.
So I think work ethic comes down to the
what you know.

(01:09:38):
It comes down to what it is and then,
honestly-.
Like what you're working on Like what?
No, no, I mean like so, what.
Like so, okay, I'm going to make 100K years
of magician For what you know.
Like one activity that we do in the
mastermind is like when we set our goals
for the year, for the quarter, we say okay,

(01:09:59):
selfishly, why do you want to make an extra
50K?
It's like, oh, I want to go on this trip, I
want to do this, I want to do that, okay,
great.
And then we say selflessly, like there's
other people in your life that are going to
benefit from this.
Why might they benefit from this?
And it's like well, I can take my wife out
on a trip and I can buy this thing for my
kids and I can do this and I can do that.

(01:10:19):
And we do that to set the why right, to
figure out like, okay, I'm motivated to do
this thing because if I do, I'm going to
get, I'll do all these things for myself
and if I do, I will prove to this person
that they can, you know, go, go, go to hell,
and I can get this for my wife and I can do
this for my kids and and and and.
So I think the why is important.

(01:10:42):
I think what you're working on is important,
but to me this is an element of something
which is mystery to me.
When I meet someone and I'm like, they're
like, oh, I'm really hoping I can grow my
magic business.
I'm like, oh, what are you doing?
And they're like, oh, nothing, you know.
And I'm like what?
And they're like, yeah, I'm just you know,
I'm just hoping that you know, I can grow

(01:11:03):
my magic business.
And I'm like I don't even.
It doesn't even make sense to me, like it
doesn't even make sense to me that you
wouldn't at least post a stupid video of
you doing a card trick online every day.
I mean, not that that works, but it's.
At least you can at least look down and say,
oh, you've been trying something.
It didn't work, but you've been trying
something.
So the work ethic thing is a bit of a

(01:11:24):
mystery to me.
Like I have a lot of motivation to do
things.
I think the times when I don't is because
when I had a lot of different things going
on, you know that something falls at the
wayside, but it's still a mystery to me you
know If you could boil it down.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
This is going to be a tough question.
Boil it down.
This is gonna be a tough question.
Boil it down or distill it in your
experience of talking to magicians who want
to be better at selling shows.
What would be one or two bits of advice to
you?
Know the easiest or the biggest or most
important things?
Get leads or like, get off your ass or do
something, or just do it Like you know.

(01:12:01):
What is it you think?

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
Yeah, I mean, leads are important.
Knowing how to sell is important, knowing
operations and stuff is important.
I think that if you think about a faucet,
for example, this is sort of a weird
analogy.
But you know, first you have to get water

(01:12:24):
flowing through the faucet, those are the
leads.
Then you need to make sure that it's not,
you know, blown out all the sides and
whatever, that it's going to the right
place.
And then you have to make sure that I don't
know, I don't know, I guess stupid analogy,
I'm making it up right now but whatever
that that your sink isn't exploding or
overflowing, for example.
So the whole thing is moot if you don't

(01:12:45):
have leads.
So how much you charge doesn't matter.
If you don't have leads, when someone is
getting started in the magic business,
they're like how much should I charge?
I'm like you're thinking about this whole
thing wrong.
It doesn't matter.
Do the gigs, get photos, get videos, get
testimonials?
So I think the most important thing first
is figuring out how to get leads.

(01:13:06):
I think after that you start to figure out
that you have to raise your rates.
When you're charging a hundred dollars and
you're getting buttloads of leads and your
book completely solid, and everyone's
saying yes, you're like maybe it could be
150, you know, maybe it could be 200, maybe
it could.
So you know, maybe it could be 200.
Maybe it could.
So I think you start figuring that out.
I think marketing material is really

(01:13:27):
important.
It's hard to imagine, it's hard to put
ourselves in the view of a buyer and not a
magician.
We're like everyone loves headshots of me
with cards and it's like no man, they just
want to see audiences just like them having
the same fun that you're promising them
that they're going to have.
So like you have to figure that out and
then same as sort of raising your rates and
figuring out your marketing materials, like

(01:13:48):
operations.
Like at some point you go how the hell do I
handle all these emails?
And you Google how do I handle all these
emails?
And then someone somewhere says you should
get a CRM and you're like what the fuck is
a CRM?
And then you Google it and then you
whatever, and then maybe you buy the wrong
one and you change whatever.
So I think that like you can learn raising
your prices and you can learn sales calls

(01:14:09):
and you can learn promo videos, and you can
learn all of that stuff as a result of
having buttloads of leads.
I think probably the most important thing
is figuring out how to get more people in
the door.
So it sounds silly and all of the other
things are plenty important, but if you
have 5,000 people a year knocking down your

(01:14:32):
door to get to hire you, you're like, yeah,
how good does my promo video really need to
be?
Like, if this person doesn't like it, the
next person might, you know?
Or okay, well, I guess I can probably raise
the rates because I have 4,999 people that
are going to be asking me about this.
So you know, it doesn't even matter.
Like, some of the leads can fall through

(01:14:52):
the cracks and you forgot about the email
and you forgot about this because it's like
you have unlimited.
So it's like if, hypothetically, you can
solve the leads problem, everything else
becomes a little bit easier.
But all of it you know all of it there's
people that do 250 K a year on 50 bookings
and that's on 200 leads, and that's because

(01:15:15):
they're charging right and their pro
materials awesome and the leads are from
the right people.
So all of it, all of it is important, but I
think that, like I'll put it this way, I
help magicians with a lot of different
things.
Most of them come to me because of leads.
Nobody comes to me to say, jonah, my sales
process needs sharpening.
I mean, it probably does, and you can book

(01:15:36):
10% more, which could be an initial $20,000
a year or something.
But you know, no one comes to me to say,
hey, you know, I feel like my CRM isn't as
good as it could be.
You know, like everyone comes to me to say,
like how the hell do I get more people
calling me?
You know, so that's probably at least feels
like a important thing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
That's some great advice.
Listen, we're nearing the end of this
episode, but before we get into the usual
wrap-up questions, I have asked Chad GPT.
I told him everything about me and about
you, about this podcast and where I'm at in
it and where you're at in it, and I had
these four little questions and as I read
them, I think it may be just only two.

(01:16:17):
I'd like to ask you and they're simple ones,
but how do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
first of all, all we didn't talk about.
Do you still perform?
Yeah, I still do.
I I mostly book out ben, but I still do
about not including the public shows.
I probably do about 60 or 70 shows a year,
okay so you're still getting out there,
yeah this season I'm swarmed.
November, december, I'm completely swarmed,
I basically do like you love performing.
Yes, with an asterisk, I love performing.

(01:16:47):
I think I've been very lucky to do things
like the Mastermind and the podcast and
whatever, and I think that I'm very excited
about problem solving and novelty and
performing makes me feel really good, just
being on stage and crushing it or doing
mingling and destroying it or whatever.
But like a repetition of it all just

(01:17:10):
doesn't move me as much as solving a new,
fresh problem.
Like crushing one more gig doesn't motivate
me in totally the same way.

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):
So I think the RFT tag on the business card.
That figuring that out Exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
That's like crazy.
I'm like this is one tip that's going to
help for the rest of my life, for me and
lots of other people.
And oh my gosh, like this is amazing Versus
me crushing one more gig.
I'm like, score, I crushed it.
Anyways, let's go get a coffee and let's,
you know, go home or whatever.
So I love it, I love magic, I love

(01:17:45):
performing, but it's very hard for me to
think about like, so I'm just going to do
this fucking trick for the next 20 years.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Like you know, it's, it's's, it's sort of a
a part that weighs on me a little, because
your mom your mom told me that kind of
right now your least favorite thing to do
would be to get out there and perform over
the marketing and over the helping people I
don't know that it's my least favorite
thing to do.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
I, I'm enjoying this season, you know, it's
it's, it's, it's great.
I I think I'm also like a real, I'm a real
sucker for whatever I'm doing right now.
And what I mean by that is, like you know,
I'm performing a lot this season.
This season I'm like fuck, yeah, I'm
awesome.
No one's better, I'm the champ, whatever.
And then it's like I'm booking out Ben for
most of the gigs.

(01:18:28):
It's like a month and a half until I do a
gig.
I go and I do a gig.
It's like okay, like it goes good, they
like it.
But I'm like, oh, you know, it could have
been better, whatever.
And then I'm like what am I doing?
Why am I fucking doing this?
You know, like what am I?
So it's like right now in this season of
doing I did seven shows in four days I have

(01:18:49):
all these new lines and bits and like I'm
destroying or whatever, and I'm like I love
it.
And then, like the middle of February, when
it's quiet and I'm giving all the gigs to
Ben, and da, da, da, I'm just like what am
I doing?
Why do I even have this website up for me?

Speaker 1 (01:19:02):
Like, let me, just it's nice to know that
even you, you get that.
You know February kind of like what am I
doing?
What's my?
Totally so the question that has to do with
the chad gpd question how is hosting a
podcast on magic theory change the way you
approach your own performances?
That's a good question yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:22):
I think one lesson that I learned from the
podcast which sort of sounds a little bit
sad in a way, but I don't mean it to be so
sad is that, like, just do do the fucking
work, just do the thing, just do the
fucking thing.
Like, how many more times do I need to
interview someone to tell me that the way
to get good at performing is by performing?

(01:19:42):
It's like, bro, I know, like how many more
most creative magicians in the world can I
interview about being creative?
And they tell me, like you just work on the
stuff and you show it to your friends and
you just keep working and you get better at
working on stuff because you work on stuff
all the time.
And I'm like, oh, okay, got it, you know.
Like, how do you be funny?
Oh, you write a lot of jokes, okay, great.

(01:20:04):
So like I think that it's pretty, it's like
reductive, but like sometimes I want to
interview someone and I've really sort of
changed some of what I talk about and now
it's mostly documenting what the story is
and what their life is, and I try not to
ask them these like really simple questions
like how do you be creative?
You know, because their answer is always

(01:20:25):
the same thing, and I think when I started
it, I wanted to get to the bottom of how to
be a really good performer and get to the
bottom of like, how to be incredibly
creative, and I just realized that you know
what you work on works right and that's it.
So I now it's more about chatting with
really cool people and I try to ask them

(01:20:47):
things that are a little bit more unique,
but just do the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
I mean, that's what I learned and what's
the, what's the best aha moment you've had
while recording these 300 and some episodes?
You have to.
I know it's hard, but if you have to kind
of isolate one of them where you were like,
oh, I'm going to remember this forever
because listening to your podcast, there's
a lot of things that now I'm like I'm never
going to forget that.
I'm going to think about that forever.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
I don't, it's, it's impossible, it's
impossible.
And also, like I said, I'm a real like, uh,
I'm a real advocate of the present.
So I'm just like thinking about the last
three or four episodes, but I will say that
the heart that Mario the maker has for
magic and excitement and passion and

(01:21:33):
whatever it's an episode that I recommend
to a lot of people because he's got so much
heart and I love everything about him and
his family and his everything and
everything he does, Mario the Maker,
magician, I'm going to listen to it today
and he just is.
He tells these stories of like he went to
the school and he set up his show and he
heard like a stories of like you know, he

(01:21:54):
went to the school and he set up his show
and he heard like a parent being like
that's the magician and it just destroyed
him.
And so now he builds all these really cool
crazy stuff and like he loves watching,
like kids face light up and he talks about
how people like really put down kids
magicians and that he just realized that he
loves kids and he loves making them happy

(01:22:16):
and making them laugh and it's just like
just the warmest episode ever.
So like I don't know if there's like one
thing I learned or one aha moment or
whatever, but like certainly him, and that
episode is one that just it warms me up and
I recommend it to a lot of people and I
just say like go, go, feel good and listen
to this one.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
And one little one before we wrap up.
Which magician, past or present, would you
love to be for a day?
Would I love to?

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
be for a day.

Speaker 1 (01:22:44):
Yeah, past or present that you'd love to
secretly wish to be for a day, I mean when
I think I'm like I've accomplished it.
I mean it would just you know, I mean he's
still working doing two, three shows, like
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
But, bro, it's like I was just complaining
about doing the same thing over and over
again.
And that's that guy's universe, you know,
like if I was him for a day, it would be
one of the off days where he's on the
island, you know like can I pick the day?
yeah, can I pick the day, I don't know, I
don't know.
I that like without being too verbose about

(01:23:16):
this, but like if I'm going to be someone
for a day, I need to have all of their
training and I'll be like I need to be them,
not just be living in their body, Right.
Like I think about people that do awesome
epic theater shows that crush it.
Like Leroy Sechardt is someone who comes to
mind who, like his magic, is awesome.

(01:23:37):
He does huge venues, he's got cameras and
he's got directors and he's got like people
that make this show just brilliant that
he's worked together with and it's awesome
and that's all him and his stuff and his
info to what he knows.
Like if I was him for a day on that show
I'd be floundering.
So like I would need to literally just
watch it through his eyes Like cause I I

(01:24:03):
don't know everything that he knows about
how he does it.
So like I don't really have a good answer
for who I would be for a day, Cause I would
have to not just be me in their body, but I
would have to be them in their body.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
So I don't know, that's amazing.
No, it's it.
I mean we kind of got our answer, jonah.
This has been.
This episode should be listened to by all
the magicians who are into the business
side of selling shows.
It was so good.
A couple of wrap up questions.
We always have these wrap up questions.
We usually end these episodes with the
first one is called the endless chain,

(01:24:34):
these wrap up questions.
We usually end these episodes with.
The first one is called the endless chain.
In order for this podcast to last for
eternity, we ask every guest to recommend
one magicians who they would think would do
amazing on this podcast.
There's only two caveats, though.
First off is, obviously we couldn't have
interviewed them before, and the second one
is you must be able to connect us to make
it happen.
So if I throw that question to you, anybody

(01:24:55):
come to mind.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
It's hard because I've interviewed everyone
that I know directly, so I'm going to pass,
but I will say that this has been awesome
and I think that I will probably do this
kind of thing yearly December pretty cool
time to do it.
See if I can get some other people.

(01:25:17):
You crushed it, by the way.
You did a lot of it.
Thanks, clay.
Homework and it was awesome.
We called my parents for an hour in Mexico.
They wanted to be on the beach like go
inside, talk to me about your son.
You crushed it, son.
I appreciate all the work that you did, but
I know a lot of this kind of thing and I
never really do it and I think it's been.
It's been fun and it's cool and and usually
it's just like the solo episodes are like
me in a room talking to myself, so like

(01:25:37):
this is a really cool way to to just talk
about what's going on.
I'll do this yearly, you know it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
I'm happy to.
I'm happy to hear that.
Also, we've we've covered a lot of ground
today, but if there's one tidbit that you
think people should extract from this talk,
what do you think it should be?

Speaker 2 (01:25:54):
For me.
I was going to say probably do the things.
You know, thinking about the thing is not
doing the thing.
Listening to a podcast about doing the
thing is not doing the thing.
Reading about doing the thing is not doing
the thing.
Writing in your journal that you're going
to do the thing is not doing the thing.
Only doing the thing is doing the thing.
So just, whatever the thing is, do the
thing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:13):
I hate saying yourself out there.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
Of course.
Of course I hate saying what I'm about to
say, but, like, stop listening to this
podcast, stop reading magic books, stop
buying magic tricks.
You don't need any of it, you have
everything.
Just do the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:26:29):
Also listening.
I have a great little piece of advice for
you.
That we should do is you film 300 and some
of these with some of the best magicians,
uh, in the world, and at the end of it they
all give one tip or one.
What we just did right here.
They're one thing that people should retain.
These should be compiled.

Speaker 2 (01:26:50):
These should be compiled somewhere, either
written or audio, but it should be, because
that would be that would be the longest
time I wanted to make a of all of just like
most important things from every episode
and the summaries and and things like that.
It's a, it's a huge, it's a behemoth of a

(01:27:11):
project, first and second of all, like I
think not every interview is worthy of
making it to a bait hardcover book, so I
may do like a I don't know, pick the top
hundred or something.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Yeah a hundred tips.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
Yeah, yeah, I just had another brilliant
idea I think it's so cool Is you know they
talk about when you perform or when you're
doing magic, like you want to think, like
how would Vernon do this, or how would what
would Darren Brown say about this, or
whatever.
so I thought about this idea of making a
deck of cards with the face of them and

(01:27:49):
some of the tips on the back that they said
from the episode, and then you take a deck
and you shuffle them and then you pull
three faces out and you're looking at three
amazing magicians and you read a bit about
them.
And now you think how would I do this trick,
thinking about this guy says, and how would
I think about this magic thing, what this
guy says?

(01:28:09):
So I have a bunch of ideas about it, but
they're just behemoth of projects, that's
really good.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
The last question is about modern magic.
In the state of magic today, Would like to
know one thing that you like about modern
magic and one thing that you like a little
bit less about modern magic and how it
affects people or whatever.
Whatever you want to say.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Gosh, it's funny.
Just everyone just says they hate social
media magic.
And I don't care, it's fine, people can do
it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):
You know what you were having a talk with
Gazzo a few years ago that I just listened
to and you really let him.
You know he really hated it.
He hates social media.
And there's no, there's no merit.
And there's all these.
They all suck and they all.
And you were like, yeah, but some of them
are making bank?
Sure, they're not, but and the way to
consume magic nowadays is this why would it?

(01:28:59):
Why would it change everybody's consuming
on their phones that, oh, magic needs to be
appreciated live.
The new way to consume magic is through
these videos.
So why not have these new people coming up
doing magic?
Sure, maybe not the best or whatever, but
there some people are killing it with like
subscribers and that can convert to ticket
sales and and and money.

(01:29:19):
Like some, some internet magicians are not
very good are making thousands of dollars,
thousands every month with their little
tricks.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
It does have a place?

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
Yeah, I don't, I don't think so much.
I don't have anything much negative to say
about Internet Magicians.
I think exposure kind of sucks, but, like
whatever, it's literally never had an
impact on me ever, like just to think,
practically no one's ever, at any event
ever been like.
Actually I watched this guy that exposes
magic.
It's never happened, so I don't, I'm not

(01:29:52):
really super worried about it.
Magic video it's never happened, so I don't,
I'm not really super worried about it.
I think what's one thing that I like about
modern magic right now?
I don't know.
I think there's like a really cool variety
of magic and magicians.
And you know, I think one thing.
This is this is something that I've said
many times before but the way that that

(01:30:14):
America's Got Talent and Fool Us and things
like that have really impacted magic is
that back before America's Got Talent it
was David Blaine.
So if someone talked about a magician, they
would talk about David Blaine or Criss
Angel or David Copperfield or Houdini.
You're like, yeah, that guy's been dead for
a little while, right?
So they only mention one magician.

(01:30:35):
Now, lay people know magician, like lay
people know who Shin Lim is.
Lay people know who Pith is.
Lay people know who Penn and Teller are Not
everybody, but I think it's just good for
magic that people know that there's
different styles and different types of

(01:30:56):
magic and and nuance and and things like
that.
So I think that's one thing that I really
like.
What's one thing I don't like?
I don't know man, I like magic.
I think it's awesome.
There's not much that I don't like.
I think one thing is people that people
that like copy acts and copy things, and

(01:31:17):
like people doing things that are obviously
wrong, like like copying someone's acts and
lines and outfit or stealing the trick that
they released on a magic site and releasing
it on some some site, whatever.
But it's like I don't know, these things
are just obviously wrong and they happen in
every industry.
And like anybody that's doing something
that is obviously wrong, like you know.

(01:31:40):
You know you're doing something that you
shouldn't be doing.
You know, like no one's like.
No one's like what.
I shouldn't pretend to be this person and
do it.
It's like no man.
You shouldn't so like I don't know.
I love magic.
I think it's awesome.
I don't know.
There's nothing I hate.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):
I love magic.
I love magic as well, and you're definitely
leaving your mark on it with with
everything you bring to it.
And especially, it must be so nice to come
back to this mastermind to be able to
replicate success in other people.
They, they, you know, like people.
I don't know about everybody else, but when
I was a kid I was like how am I going to be
able to do this for a living?
How am I going to be able to afford a house

(01:32:14):
if I'm doing these 300?
Like how many?
I just was so confused and having somebody
like you to help me, to help guide me and,
you know, push me and keep me accountable,
would have been not that it's too late, but
you know when I was really trying to make.
It would have been like Mark said, said
would have saved you know, or bow said,
would have saved you years and years.

Speaker 2 (01:32:35):
mastermind members this year bought a house.
It's amazing dude.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
You're.
You're changing the world.
You're leaving your mark.
Jonah, this is amazing.
Thanks for letting me do this, by the way.
This is awesome, a lot of fun.
We should we should do it again next year
or you should put me on your list to be to
come back on the show.
Since I was, I listened to my podcast,
which was episode three.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
You were the third episode, but the first
recording we recorded with you before
anybody else.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
So I hate.

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
I loved the experience back then, but I
hated listening to to it seven years later,
but you were also on another episode in the
live show we did in toronto, which was you
wes chris ramsey and was boy on it yeah, I
hadn't slept in days I was wired yeah, that
was a bender of an episode, but that was

(01:33:25):
like so funny.
And again, you know, in the name of like
doing stuff and trying stuff, like I was, I
had this podcast listening to that did like
a live show, and I was like, yeah, I'll do
a live show in toronto and like I don't
know, 12 people came and I rented it, or
like 15 people came, but we had a blast, it
was fun, it was really great, you know.
So Keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 1 (01:33:41):
man, I'm sure a lot of magicians out there,
and me included, benefit so much from
everything and I just want to say really
thank you.
If this magic thing doesn't work out, your
mom still has your bedroom untouched that
she now uses as her office, but has her bed
back anytime.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
she says Well, dude, thanks for you know
putting in the preparation for this.
It's so, so awesome and so funny and thanks
for taking the time to do this and thank
you everyone for listening and tuning in.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
You're the next episode, I'll be listening.
Bye guys.
Well, there you have it.
I hope you guys learned something.
I surely learned a whole lot.
I'm feeling inspired and motivated to do

(01:34:32):
the things, to get to work and to just put
myself out there Even more than I've
already been.
If you guys like this podcast, please share
it with a friend.
In fact, jonah has offered $100 cash to
anybody who gets Discourse in Magic
tattooed on their body at any visible spot.

(01:34:53):
So this is your chance.
If you're short for cash for Christmas,
this is your chance to get Discourse in
Magic tattooed on your body at any visible
spot.
So this is your chance.
If you're short for cash for Christmas,
this is your chance to get Discourse on
Magic tattooed on your body, and Jonah has
so graciously offered to send you $100 if
you do send the proof.
Hope you guys enjoyed it.
We'll see you next Thursday.
My name's Eric LeClair, subbing in for
Jonah Babins.
Peace.