December 5, 2025 • 30 mins
Come and listen to our Host, Joyce Benning, as she chats with today's guest, Kate Neligan, for our “End of Year, Beginning of Me” Podcast Series.
A powerfully themed mini-series helping women close the year with clarity and step into the next one with grounded self-love and vision.
Kimberlee Campbell, Ph.D., is a co-founder of Grey Raven Ranch, a Canadian federal non-profit dedicated to preserving the Ojibwe Horse and educating the public about this Anishinaabe heritage breed. At Grey Raven, she focuses on breeding for healthy future generations and providing training for the ranch’s horses.
A retired professor of Romance Languages, Dr. Campbell continues to teach at the Harvard Extension School. She also collaborates with Indigenous communities in Lakota country, creating classroom materials for Lakota language instruction and supporting teachers in developing their teaching repertories.
She is the author of five books and numerous articles on both medieval literature and Indigenous language pedagogy. Her teaching has been recognized with the Mensa Foundation’s Distinguished Teacher Award (2004) and Harvard’s Carmen S. Bonanno Excellence in Foreign Language Teaching Award (2014).
She lives on Seine River First Nation in northwestern Ontario with her partner and Grey Raven co-founder, Darcy Whitecrow.
We trace the near extinction and revival of the Ojibwe horse, from a runaway mare and a heartbreaking loss to a grassroots rescue across winter ice and a ranch built on granite and grit. Kim shares how science, Indigenous knowledge, and a network of women keep a rare breed alive and gentle.
• Origins and traits of the Ojibwe horse
• Anishinaabe partnership and winter work
• Colonial policies and loss of mobility
• Parks, poverty, and engines accelerating decline
• The rescue of the last four mares
• Cross-border stewardship and ranch creation
• Genetics, e-clade DNA, and outcross strategy
• Temperament suited for kids and elders
• Women-led network sustaining the breed
• An invitation to start anew through conservation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
It's Divas The Care Radio.
Stories, strategies, and ideasto inspire positive change.
Welcome to Divas That Cares, anetwork of women committed to
making our world a better placefor everyone.
This is a global movement forwomen by women engaged in a
collaborative effort to create abetter world for future
generations.
(00:20):
To find out more about themovement, visit divas that
care.com after the show.
Right now, though, stay tunedfor another jolt of inspiration.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
Hello to all.
Welcome to Divas That CareNetwork.
I am Joyce Banning, and I willbe your host for this magical
robust lifestyle show.
I am so excited today, as I havewith me Kim Campbell of the Grey
Raven Ranch.
And her and I are not only goingto talk about the ranch, but
(00:52):
about Ojibwe horses.
And oh, it will be a magicalshow as we are doing this
podcast for Divas I Care for Endof the Year and Beginning of Me.
So with that, Kim, could youplease do a brief introduction
of yourself and then just let'sjust start sharing what you
(01:16):
would like to share about howyou feel the beginning of me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Okay.
Well, first of all, Joyce, Iwant to thank you for inviting
me to speak to you and to speakto whoever will be listening to
this.
This is fabulous, and I'm veryexcited about the about your
project, but also about ours.
So who I am, uh, let's see.
I am a retired professor ofromance languages.
(01:42):
Uh, I still teach one class forHarvard University, where I
retired um a few years back.
And uh basically I I um got intoworking, I've been working with
horses all of my life, but I gotinto the subject of today,
Ojibwe horses, um, in a very uhpeculiar way years ago, in that
(02:05):
I lost my uh Tennessee Walkermayor, who I was hand walking at
a new barn at a new facility,and she broke free of me.
Nobody warned me that there wasa bear in the woods.
And it's both a sad and a happystory.
Uh, she broke free and took offrunning.
(02:25):
Uh, her name was free, in fact,and she ran and ran and ran and
ran about uh actually a longway, about five miles through a
swamp.
And what I ended up doing tofind her was that I took
airplanes.
It was International Falls, FortFrancis, Ontario, that area.
So right on the Canadian border,I took, uh I hired airplanes to
(02:48):
take me up and look for her.
And I finally thought I spottedher at a farm that, as I say,
was five or more miles away fromthe farm where she had bolted
from the bear.
And so I kind of marked the areaon a map and then I went looking
for her on the ground.
The sad part of this story isthat while we did see her, um,
(03:11):
nobody ever spotted her inenough time for me to get there
because I lived about an houraway and get a lead line on her.
And sadly, she was shot.
Um, miss somebody mistook herfor a moose in November.
And we never managed to get herback.
But the farm that she went to,and this is the happy and kind
(03:33):
of magical part, was a farm thathad a large number at that time
of Ojibwe horses.
So they had about 25 Ojibwehorses, and those are the horses
that she went to and was hangingoutside of their pasture.
Uh, and so that is how when Idrove up to this farm and
(03:55):
introduced myself and said,You'll never believe this story.
I have a horse that that boltedfrom a bear, and she's outside
of your fence.
And if you could keep an eye outfor her and maybe get a lead
line on her if you can.
Again, the sad story is that wenever did.
But then I said, What kind ofhorses are these?
(04:15):
And the owner of the farm said,Well, these are Ojibwe horses.
And I said, Never heard of thembecause I had never heard of
this particular horse breed.
Now, to give those of you whowere um horse fans in the crowd
uh an idea of what this horseis, this horse belonged to, and
(04:36):
there are a number of names forthe Ojibwe tribe.
The Ojibwe, the Chippewa, theOdawa.
It's it's basically all the sametribe.
Uh, they have different namesdepending on how far west you
go.
So it's one of the largest uhtribes in North America, and
it's also one of those that hasa large number of speakers of
(04:58):
the language, which is AnishnaBemoan.
And there, the people callthemselves the Anishina Bay.
Now, we call the horses Ojibwe,which is one of the admittedly
colonialized names for thepeople, but it's one that more
people recognize.
So we have stuck with Ojibwehorses for the name for the
(05:19):
horse, although the peoplethemselves are the Anishina Bay,
uh, which means the people,right?
They they call themselves thepeople.
So um basically I met thesehorses and they're a little bit
smaller.
They're a woods horse, they're acreature of the boreal forest
and the Canadian Shield.
So they stand about 13 hands to14 hands.
(05:42):
They come in black and also inthe in done factor color.
So they're Gruya horses, orthey'll be red done.
Uh, we there are a few bays.
They there are no white ones orgray ones or cremo or or
palomino, any of the lightercolors, that's a no.
They never were that color.
(06:03):
Uh, they can have white marks,and what we usually get is a
star or a star and a snip on theface, and then a sock or uh a
coronet band on one or both backfeet, no socks on the front
feet.
So they have a very specific uhDNA pattern, right?
Um right now, today, this is avery rare breed, and I had never
(06:27):
heard of them before becausethere are fewer than 200 animals
worldwide still left alive.
So it is a very small, verysmall, very rare breed, but of a
breed that lived symbioticallywith the Anishinaabe people for
what the elders will say, uhthousands of years, right?
(06:48):
The elders say the horses werealways here.
And in fact, there are uh caveum uh drawings in our area of
horses in caves, right?
So we know that these horses goback a long way, partnering with
the people.
And here's what the interesting,interesting part, and I'll jump
around a little bit and thencome back to more recent
(07:09):
history.
But uh the horses, when I saythey live symbiotically, the
people would let them go in thesummer and they would forage for
themselves.
And they're very, very attunedto people.
They want to be close to theirpeople, and so they were just
very easy to gather up comewintertime.
And the horses also knew thatthey would get food provided for
(07:32):
them by the Anishinaabe peoplein the winter.
So they were willing to come in,and there is almost an unspoken
deal.
Yes, we'll pull your sleds andyou can ride us and we'll tow
things for you and pull thingsfor you, and you will feed us in
the wintertime.
Now, why the winter and not thesummer?
Because in the summer, theAnishinaabe, this is the people
(07:54):
of the lakes, they had the waterto move around on canoes with,
right?
So that they didn't need to beriding the horses or having the
horses pulling a wagon or somekind of a travois in the summer.
They needed this when there wassnow on the ground and
everything was frozen.
So this worked out particularlywell for both the horses and for
(08:15):
the people.
And as I say, they livesymbiotically for what the
elders tell us, um, uh, isforever, basically, thousands of
years.
Now, the horse, uh, the thefirst thing I said was, well,
no, you know, horses came fromEurope and you know, they were
originally a North Americananimal, but they died out in the
ice age.
(08:36):
Uh, right now, there's a lot ofspeculation about whether, in
fact, some horses may havesurvived, and these would be the
horses, uh, because of theirrelationship with human beings.
Now, we're not very far where Ilive now from where the bottom
of the ice was.
The bottom of the ice was aroundMinneapolis for people who live
(08:57):
in my state, which is Minnesota,right?
And it's not very far.
It's it's two or three hundredmiles north.
So it's within a couple of days'ride for a fast horse, a three
days' ride.
So the idea that the people wholived here then were moving with
their animals is not so terriblyfar-fetched.
And uh, so it's very interestingwhen you listen to the elders
(09:20):
and listen to those indigenousways of knowing the world and
then compare with what we have.
What we do have, and uh a fairlywell-known horse geneticist Gus
Cawthron also studied the Ojibwehorses and kind of mapped their
DNA, and everybody says, oh,well, they must be Canadian
horses, or they must be, andactually, no, they're pretty far
(09:43):
apart from Canadian horses.
They were not particularlyMustangy or Spanish either.
Uh, so the interesting thing is,what are these horses
genetically?
And Gus Cothrin's studies showedus that they're a very
homogeneous group of horses.
So this is a clear separatebreed.
(10:03):
This is not an offshoot ofCanadians, this is not an
offshoot of Spanish horses, thisis its own breed, per Gus's
studies.
And then later studies onmitochondrial DNA, for those who
are interested in this, show usthat these horses are eclade
DNA, mitochondrial DNA, so thematernal DNA.
And this means that they're veryrare.
(10:26):
They are not that closelyrelated to most of our domestic
breeds.
So this is what gives us theidea that maybe the elders have
a point.
And those of us who work withthese horses and see how
attached they are to people andhow willingly there's no
catching these horses.
You the the question is, do youget mobbed by all of them or one
(10:48):
at a time?
Uh so they're they're just theysee you and they run up to you,
right?
That that is just the way thisbreed is.
So uh the idea is, of course,that the horses that came in in
the winter willingly and allowedthemselves to be fed by the
people are the ones that wouldhave survived.
The ones that were moreresistant to being fed by people
(11:12):
would have been the ones thatdidn't survive and pass on their
DNA.
So, what we imagine is that overtime, that the horses that were
most attached to human beings ormost willing to live amongst
them would be the horses thatsurvived and passed on their
DNA, which is why we have thiswonderful breed of horses that
(11:33):
is in fact very attached to thehuman beings that are in their
immediate circle.
But they're also curious aboutall human beings, right?
They're just, they're verypeople curious.
So, question is what happened tothese horses?
And what happened to them, infact, is that they went in the
(11:53):
1970s, and this is people alwayswant to know why did they
disappear?
Because they almost disappeared.
This is a survival story.
Uh and they almost disappearedfor many, many reasons, one of
which is colonialization.
Uh, one of the stated purposes,and I know the Canadian story
less than the US, but one of thestated purposes of the U.S.
(12:16):
government was to removetransportation from the people
that it wanted to place onreservations and have them stay
there.
Now in Canada, uh, just an asidefor indigenous populations
there, they had to actually havea permission slip, an actual
written permission slip to leavethe reservation.
(12:38):
And this was as late as the1970s.
So the uh one of the reasonstheir horses disappeared,
obviously, is because ofreservations and
colonialization.
But there are other reasons.
Building national parks iswonderful, but because people
read this horse as an invasivespecies and not and did not read
(13:01):
horses as native as they are toNorth America, since horses
originated 50 million years agoin North America, uh, they read
them as invasive and thereforegot rid of a lot more of them.
When they were building up inour area, we have Voyagers
National Park, we have theboundary waters on the Minnesota
side, Quetico Provincial Park onthe Canadian side.
(13:25):
We are just a sea of parkland uphere.
And that did away with a lot ofthe horses because they wanted
them out of the parks.
Another reason is that people,people uh that had them were
poor.
And one thing you can do withhorses is sell them for
slaughter to be made into dogfood and what have you.
(13:47):
And we think a lot of thesehorses were sold when people had
to pick between their horses andtheir children eating.
They picked their children,obviously.
So a lot of these horses we knowwere sold for slaughter.
And so that's another way thatthey disappeared.
There have been massive firesover time in this area, which
probably did in other horses.
(14:09):
Um then the internal combustionengine was kind of the last nail
in the coffin because when thetribes, the the um Anishna Bay,
different tribes and bands,especially in our area, got
particularly snowmobiles becausethey still didn't have roads,
but they got snowmobiles forwinter transport.
(14:31):
And that again was started inthe 1960s and the late 60s.
The symbiotic relationshipbetween the horses and the
people broke down.
And so they stopped taking careof the horses as systematically
in the winter because they hadanother means of transportation.
That was another reason why moreand more horses uh were not
(14:53):
being were not being bred andwere not being kept uh in good
enough flesh for them to surviveour minus 40 winters up here
with very deep snow.
So in the end, in the 1970s,these horses went down to four
mayors only.
So this is this is an enormoussurvival tale.
There were only four mayorsleft.
(15:14):
The last stallion was shot bymayor free, ironically, was shot
because somebody thought thatstallion was a moose.
And horses and moose, I'vemistaken moose for horses a lot
of times, so I can see how thereverse happens.
Uh, horses and moose look a lotalike if you look at them from
(15:36):
the back.
So you would think a very largehorse when you look at the back
of a young moose.
And vice versa.
Of course, they would think asmall moose just right for the
pot, uh, unfortunately, whenthey look at a horse.
So they shot the last stallion,and now they only had four
mayors, and the park was justgetting started, and they were
(15:56):
going to euthanize the last fourmayors.
And what happened is theAnishina Bay bands from the U.S.
side of the border got togetherwith uh some Finnish farmers who
lived up near the border andsaid, we'll smuggle them across,
we'll save those last four.
So they did.
And it's it's quite a lovelystory.
(16:16):
They they had to chase themaround a little bit because two
were not that used to people,two were more used, but they got
them into trailers and theyliterally drove them across the
frozen lake uh at a a shallow, anarrow spot to get them to
Minnesota, and then they werenear the what's called the Boys
Fort Reservation, where they hadbeen wild, but they had already
(16:37):
gone extinct there.
So this was the last four.
They were at Red Lake FirstNation.
Um, sorry, it's not First Nationin the U.S.
I get my Canadian and my U.S.
scrambled a bit, but uh, whichis also on the U.S.
side, right, which is up innorthern Minnesota.
But the Boys Fort is where theycame back after they smuggled
(16:57):
those four mayors across.
And then they said, these arewonderful horses.
Should we just let them die out,just live out their lives and
then pass from uh existence?
And they decided no.
Well, at the time, because DNAwasn't a thing, they didn't
realize they weren't SpanishMustangs.
They thought somehow these areSpanish Mustangs that just got
(17:18):
all the way up north here andlived with the Anishinaabe
people for all that time, butthey're really Spanish Mustangs.
Well, it turns out they weren't,but to save them, they bred them
with Smokey, Spanish MustangRegistry 169, who was very
similarly conformed to theOjibwe horses.
So they bred the four mayors toSmokey and then line bred some
(17:42):
of the fillies, some of thebabies, and eventually the herd
started to grow.
And in the early 2000s, um, RareBreeds Canada, which has since
changed its name, it was listedas one of the rarest horses or
the rarest horse on the Canadianside.
They decided to bring some backacross because they were by then
(18:04):
they were not extinct anymore onthe U.S.
side, but now they're extinct inCanada.
So the Canadians decided tobring some back, and that was
fortuitous because everybody whohad been working with them on
the U.S.
side was getting older andcouldn't afford to keep them and
the herd was getting too big andso forth.
So the Canadians brought themback again just in time.
(18:26):
And the miraculous part aboutthese horses as survivors is
that somebody always seems tostep up when there really is a
danger that they're going to be,they're going to be extinct,
right?
So uh basically they broughtthem back to Canada in about
2001, and it was about 2010 whenI ran, when my horse ran to, my
(18:48):
horse free ran to the Ojibwehorses at this particular farm,
and I got acquainted with them.
And it was two or three moreyears before we got our act
together to get a grant goingand to start Grey Raven Ranch,
and it's G-R-E-Y, Raven Ranch,um, Gray Raven Ranch at Seine
(19:11):
River First Nation, which iswhere I live with my partner,
Darcy Whitecrow.
And we worked with our childrenand other people's children, and
we literally uh we don't have aplace to put fence in the
ground.
We live on granite rock.
So we wrapped the fencingthrough the trees, we wrapped
highway underlayment uh throughand around the trees and tied it
(19:33):
with wire ties, and uh basicallyjust created, we used sticks and
unbarked logs to create a roundpen and again wrapped it around
the trees and uh uh basicallystarted Gray Raven Ranch in
about 2013.
Wow.
And so we've been at this nowfor 12 years officially, and we
(19:57):
started with grant money, we gota small population and started
breeding.
So we've had a few of these gothrough Gray Raven right now.
Um my partner and I are gettinga little bit older, and so we
don't have quite as many horseswith us, but we have a lot of
satellite foster programs thathave our horses that are keeping
(20:18):
maybe a breeding pair for us ora mare that's in full and what
have you.
So we have been also seeding ourhorses as we go because we know
I'm 70 years old, we can't go onforever, although I have a
pregnant mare this year for nextyear, and I'll get into that in
a minute.
But uh, we know that we can't goon forever.
So we are also trying to makesure that there is follow-up to
(20:43):
what we're doing.
And there are not a huge numberof breeders, but there are, let
me see, one, there's us, there'sMatahoke in Canada, uh, there's
Hannah out in Alberta, uhCarolyn in Thunder Bay, Gwen in
Winnipeg.
That's about it for Canada, andthen one breeder, and I'm kind
(21:04):
of both sides of the border inthe U.S.
So there's only we're onlytalking about six or seven
breeding farms right now forthese horses.
But we keep trying to addpeople.
So if anybody's interested, I'dlove to hear from you.
Uh, we keep trying to add peoplewho would be able to take a
breeding pair, for example, or amayor and foal, because we live
(21:24):
in a vet desert where we are.
But uh basically, what has alsohappened, and this is I'll get
to my breeding story here, whathas also happened with these
horses, as you might imaginefrom a very small genetic pool,
is that we have gotten veryinbred.
So I'm the person who does theinbreeding coefficients for
everybody.
(21:44):
I just keep a database and I andour inbreeding coefficients are
way too high.
We're into the teens for almostevery cross I make.
Every now and then I'll find a10 or an 11.
But we need, as geneticists havetold us, we need outcross.
So what uh Gray Raven did, andwe did this a number of years
ago, but then COVID got in theway because we're back and forth
(22:06):
across the Canada-US border, uh,is that we got the most Spanish
Mustang we could find, mostlybecause of Smoky, SMR169.
Uh, and we are breeding to smallsulfur mustangs to try and do
some outcross so that we keepthe genetics healthy.
(22:29):
We know that that Spanish horseis in them now, like almost like
every horse breed on the planet.
They're a creation of humanbeings that put two or three
breeds together like what theygot and then tried to stabilize
it, keeping thosecharacteristics.
So we know what we've got.
We've got that very old threadof that old E-clay DNA plus
(22:50):
smoky SMR 169.
And so we're trying to add in alittle bit more of the Spanish
uh horse DNA with the sulfurs.
And uh so I have a mayorpregnant for next spring, and
then of course, our otherstallion right now is in
Winnipeg, and he has two othermayors pregnant for next spring.
(23:11):
So we try for a baby or twoevery year.
Next spring, if we're very, verylucky, we'll have three.
Last spring we had one.
We had uh we had a she is abruiser of a girl.
Her name is Dibekigizus, theyall have Ojibwe names.
Uh Anishna Be name, Dibeki Gizusis full moon, right?
So uh her name is Full Moonbecause she was born on the full
(23:33):
moon in April.
Uh to a little mayor who'sNigigus, which means little
otter girl, because she's sealbrown.
She's one of those that's notquite black, but almost.
So uh basically we try for oneor two babies a year, and uh
hopefully we'll keep the breedgoing, but also keep the breed
(23:54):
genetically healthy.
So this is this is the project,and this is my, I should say,
retirement project, right?
This is uh what I've been doingin retirement, but also, and the
interesting thing that Imentioned to Joyce is that a lot
of the people who are fosterranches and that we work with
now seeding are also women.
(24:16):
So it's a wonderful network ofwomen horse breeders, right?
There's Gwen in Winnipeg, andthere's Carolyn in Thunder Bay,
and there's M in Wisconsin, andof course, there's me in both
Minnesota and Ontario, andthere's Trina in eastern
Ontario, and there's Hannah outin Alberta.
(24:36):
So we're all of us a group ofwomen, uh, and it just that
wasn't the plan.
We were that was not what wewere planning at all, and I
shouldn't take anything awayfrom my partner, Dar Darcy
Whitecrow, obviously, but it'sreally been wonderful to have
all of this wonderful group ofwomen who are trying in very
(24:57):
determined fashion to keep thisbreed going, right?
And uh so I guess Joyce, I don'tknow what questions do you have
or which direction should I go?
SPEAKER_02 (25:07):
Oh, that was just that was just amazing.
I loved every minute of it, andI love how you brought in at the
end of what you were telling usis about the women, because
knowing horses and being aroundthem all my life, that says so
much about the breed of thehorse and their disposition and
(25:29):
how they are for women to beable to come in and be part of
that breeding, and the stallionshave got to be just amazing on
how they behave and theirdisposition, and I just I love
that.
We are coming down on gettingclose to having to close this
(25:53):
great conversation, which Icould talk to Kim for hours.
We could go on and on abouthorses.
SPEAKER_00 (25:59):
We could, but the stallions we can have we can
have four-year-olds and have hadaround our stallions.
These horses are so kind.
My senior stallion, the one whojust bred two mares, he'll be 18
next year.
Um, he will just stand and lickmy hand for hours and hours and
hours, right?
He's just he's so affectionate.
(26:19):
We can have he's the horse thatI trusted after a hip
replacement to get on first.
The first horse I got on was mystallion.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
That's just how the breed is.
We can have them around littlekids.
We do a program in Quetico Parkevery um Labor Day weekend, and
they have hundreds of people.
A lot of children are in there.
We can have the children in thepen with the horses.
They're all just the very firsttime, they're just fine.
Our little mayor, uh my my ownkids decided at one point, and I
(26:53):
hadn't actually started thismayor.
Oh, we need a little horse forthese little kids.
Let's use Nagyig.
All she did, she'd never hadanybody on her back before.
Apparently, the kids said, Oh,what was the problem?
All she did was look around andsay, Oh, that's new and
different.
Okay.
Just there was not an issue,right?
They are so easy to work with.
(27:14):
And from the stallions to themayors, right?
They're just really, really aneasy-going, affectionate breed.
So it's their personality wewant them for.
As much as they they look likehorses, they don't look like
ponies.
You can't tell how big they areuntil you get some kind of clear
size reference next to them,right?
(27:34):
Uh, so they look like a horse,but they're a little bit
smaller.
As I say, the tallest ones are14 hands, 14-1.
And uh, as I say, they're justvery people-oriented and very
kind, and we love them for thatas much as their striking good
looks.
SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
So that is just incredible, Kim.
Oh, I just love that.
And their disposition, I canjust I can just picture all of
that in my mind and what kind ofa horse you are talking about,
and that is just beautiful.
And what a beautiful way tobring in to our listeners about
(28:13):
the beginning of me.
Like you said, this is part ofyour retirement with these
horses, and expressing how womencan get involved in this, and
just by reaching out, anyhorse-loving women out there
that have been looking forsomething like this.
This is just amazing.
Just absolutely amazing.
(28:34):
What a beautiful, beautiful wayto start a new year and a
beginning of me with horses.
Because horses are just they'reamazing, amazing animals.
They're just magical for me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:46):
So well, it certainly was a new beginning
for me because although I'vebeen around horses all of my
life, I had not even thoughtabout running a non for
endangered horses.
Yeah.
I mean, I was a professor ofphilology, which is endangered
languages, and I still work onindigenous languages and
(29:07):
different, but I had not thoughtabout, I would not even have
thought myself capable ofrunning a nonprofit for
endangered horses.
Right.
And so this is a project Istarted in retirement.
So that that is one of thethings that that I would say.
It's good to start somethingnew.
Retiring is not the end, it'sthe beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Exactly.
Oh, I love that.
That is just beautiful.
And what a beautiful way thisshow has gone so quickly.
And what a beautiful way to endthat on what you just said, Kim.
I want to thank you so very muchfor sharing from your heart
about Grey Raven Ranch and theOjibwa horses, Ojibwe horses,
(29:52):
because I could totally tell youwere talking from the heart.
Every word you spoke was truelove for these horses.
And I just love it.
Love that.
I want to thank you so much,Kim, for all everything you are
doing for these horses and forsharing it with here on Divas
That Care.
SPEAKER_00 (30:11):
Thank you so much, Joyce, for having me again.
SPEAKER_02 (30:14):
You are so welcome.
And with that, listeners, I wantto thank you for tuning in to
this magical show with KimCampbell.
And remember the Gray RavenRanch, Ojibwe horses.
And I want to wish all of you avery magical day and magical
year to come.
And with that, goodbye to all.
SPEAKER_01 (30:37):
Thanks for listening.
This show was brought to you byDivas That Care.
Connect with us on Facebook, onInstagram, and of course on
divas that care.com, where youcan subscribe to our newsletter
so you don't miss a thing.
It's Divas The Care Radio.
Stories, strategies, and ideasto inspire positive change.
Welcome to Divas That Cares, anetwork of women committed to
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This is a global movement forwomen by women engaged in a
collaborative effort to create abetter world for future
generations.
(00:20):
To find out more about themovement, visit divas that
care.com after the show.
Right now, though, stay tunedfor another jolt of inspiration.
SPEAKER_02 (00:31):
Hello to all.
Welcome to Divas That CareNetwork.
I am Joyce Banning, and I willbe your host for this magical
robust lifestyle show.
I am so excited today, as I havewith me Kim Campbell of the Grey
Raven Ranch.
And her and I are not only goingto talk about the ranch, but
(00:52):
about Ojibwe horses.
And oh, it will be a magicalshow as we are doing this
podcast for Divas I Care for Endof the Year and Beginning of Me.
So with that, Kim, could youplease do a brief introduction
of yourself and then just let'sjust start sharing what you
(01:16):
would like to share about howyou feel the beginning of me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Okay.
Well, first of all, Joyce, Iwant to thank you for inviting
me to speak to you and to speakto whoever will be listening to
this.
This is fabulous, and I'm veryexcited about the about your
project, but also about ours.
So who I am, uh, let's see.
I am a retired professor ofromance languages.
(01:42):
Uh, I still teach one class forHarvard University, where I
retired um a few years back.
And uh basically I I um got intoworking, I've been working with
horses all of my life, but I gotinto the subject of today,
Ojibwe horses, um, in a very uhpeculiar way years ago, in that
(02:05):
I lost my uh Tennessee Walkermayor, who I was hand walking at
a new barn at a new facility,and she broke free of me.
Nobody warned me that there wasa bear in the woods.
And it's both a sad and a happystory.
Uh, she broke free and took offrunning.
(02:25):
Uh, her name was free, in fact,and she ran and ran and ran and
ran about uh actually a longway, about five miles through a
swamp.
And what I ended up doing tofind her was that I took
airplanes.
It was International Falls, FortFrancis, Ontario, that area.
So right on the Canadian border,I took, uh I hired airplanes to
(02:48):
take me up and look for her.
And I finally thought I spottedher at a farm that, as I say,
was five or more miles away fromthe farm where she had bolted
from the bear.
And so I kind of marked the areaon a map and then I went looking
for her on the ground.
The sad part of this story isthat while we did see her, um,
(03:11):
nobody ever spotted her inenough time for me to get there
because I lived about an houraway and get a lead line on her.
And sadly, she was shot.
Um, miss somebody mistook herfor a moose in November.
And we never managed to get herback.
But the farm that she went to,and this is the happy and kind
(03:33):
of magical part, was a farm thathad a large number at that time
of Ojibwe horses.
So they had about 25 Ojibwehorses, and those are the horses
that she went to and was hangingoutside of their pasture.
Uh, and so that is how when Idrove up to this farm and
(03:55):
introduced myself and said,You'll never believe this story.
I have a horse that that boltedfrom a bear, and she's outside
of your fence.
And if you could keep an eye outfor her and maybe get a lead
line on her if you can.
Again, the sad story is that wenever did.
But then I said, What kind ofhorses are these?
(04:15):
And the owner of the farm said,Well, these are Ojibwe horses.
And I said, Never heard of thembecause I had never heard of
this particular horse breed.
Now, to give those of you whowere um horse fans in the crowd
uh an idea of what this horseis, this horse belonged to, and
(04:36):
there are a number of names forthe Ojibwe tribe.
The Ojibwe, the Chippewa, theOdawa.
It's it's basically all the sametribe.
Uh, they have different namesdepending on how far west you
go.
So it's one of the largest uhtribes in North America, and
it's also one of those that hasa large number of speakers of
(04:58):
the language, which is AnishnaBemoan.
And there, the people callthemselves the Anishina Bay.
Now, we call the horses Ojibwe,which is one of the admittedly
colonialized names for thepeople, but it's one that more
people recognize.
So we have stuck with Ojibwehorses for the name for the
(05:19):
horse, although the peoplethemselves are the Anishina Bay,
uh, which means the people,right?
They they call themselves thepeople.
So um basically I met thesehorses and they're a little bit
smaller.
They're a woods horse, they're acreature of the boreal forest
and the Canadian Shield.
So they stand about 13 hands to14 hands.
(05:42):
They come in black and also inthe in done factor color.
So they're Gruya horses, orthey'll be red done.
Uh, we there are a few bays.
They there are no white ones orgray ones or cremo or or
palomino, any of the lightercolors, that's a no.
They never were that color.
(06:03):
Uh, they can have white marks,and what we usually get is a
star or a star and a snip on theface, and then a sock or uh a
coronet band on one or both backfeet, no socks on the front
feet.
So they have a very specific uhDNA pattern, right?
Um right now, today, this is avery rare breed, and I had never
(06:27):
heard of them before becausethere are fewer than 200 animals
worldwide still left alive.
So it is a very small, verysmall, very rare breed, but of a
breed that lived symbioticallywith the Anishinaabe people for
what the elders will say, uhthousands of years, right?
(06:48):
The elders say the horses werealways here.
And in fact, there are uh caveum uh drawings in our area of
horses in caves, right?
So we know that these horses goback a long way, partnering with
the people.
And here's what the interesting,interesting part, and I'll jump
around a little bit and thencome back to more recent
(07:09):
history.
But uh the horses, when I saythey live symbiotically, the
people would let them go in thesummer and they would forage for
themselves.
And they're very, very attunedto people.
They want to be close to theirpeople, and so they were just
very easy to gather up comewintertime.
And the horses also knew thatthey would get food provided for
(07:32):
them by the Anishinaabe peoplein the winter.
So they were willing to come in,and there is almost an unspoken
deal.
Yes, we'll pull your sleds andyou can ride us and we'll tow
things for you and pull thingsfor you, and you will feed us in
the wintertime.
Now, why the winter and not thesummer?
Because in the summer, theAnishinaabe, this is the people
(07:54):
of the lakes, they had the waterto move around on canoes with,
right?
So that they didn't need to beriding the horses or having the
horses pulling a wagon or somekind of a travois in the summer.
They needed this when there wassnow on the ground and
everything was frozen.
So this worked out particularlywell for both the horses and for
(08:15):
the people.
And as I say, they livesymbiotically for what the
elders tell us, um, uh, isforever, basically, thousands of
years.
Now, the horse, uh, the thefirst thing I said was, well,
no, you know, horses came fromEurope and you know, they were
originally a North Americananimal, but they died out in the
ice age.
(08:36):
Uh, right now, there's a lot ofspeculation about whether, in
fact, some horses may havesurvived, and these would be the
horses, uh, because of theirrelationship with human beings.
Now, we're not very far where Ilive now from where the bottom
of the ice was.
The bottom of the ice was aroundMinneapolis for people who live
(08:57):
in my state, which is Minnesota,right?
And it's not very far.
It's it's two or three hundredmiles north.
So it's within a couple of days'ride for a fast horse, a three
days' ride.
So the idea that the people wholived here then were moving with
their animals is not so terriblyfar-fetched.
And uh, so it's very interestingwhen you listen to the elders
(09:20):
and listen to those indigenousways of knowing the world and
then compare with what we have.
What we do have, and uh a fairlywell-known horse geneticist Gus
Cawthron also studied the Ojibwehorses and kind of mapped their
DNA, and everybody says, oh,well, they must be Canadian
horses, or they must be, andactually, no, they're pretty far
(09:43):
apart from Canadian horses.
They were not particularlyMustangy or Spanish either.
Uh, so the interesting thing is,what are these horses
genetically?
And Gus Cothrin's studies showedus that they're a very
homogeneous group of horses.
So this is a clear separatebreed.
(10:03):
This is not an offshoot ofCanadians, this is not an
offshoot of Spanish horses, thisis its own breed, per Gus's
studies.
And then later studies onmitochondrial DNA, for those who
are interested in this, show usthat these horses are eclade
DNA, mitochondrial DNA, so thematernal DNA.
And this means that they're veryrare.
(10:26):
They are not that closelyrelated to most of our domestic
breeds.
So this is what gives us theidea that maybe the elders have
a point.
And those of us who work withthese horses and see how
attached they are to people andhow willingly there's no
catching these horses.
You the the question is, do youget mobbed by all of them or one
(10:48):
at a time?
Uh so they're they're just theysee you and they run up to you,
right?
That that is just the way thisbreed is.
So uh the idea is, of course,that the horses that came in in
the winter willingly and allowedthemselves to be fed by the
people are the ones that wouldhave survived.
The ones that were moreresistant to being fed by people
(11:12):
would have been the ones thatdidn't survive and pass on their
DNA.
So, what we imagine is that overtime, that the horses that were
most attached to human beings ormost willing to live amongst
them would be the horses thatsurvived and passed on their
DNA, which is why we have thiswonderful breed of horses that
(11:33):
is in fact very attached to thehuman beings that are in their
immediate circle.
But they're also curious aboutall human beings, right?
They're just, they're verypeople curious.
So, question is what happened tothese horses?
And what happened to them, infact, is that they went in the
(11:53):
1970s, and this is people alwayswant to know why did they
disappear?
Because they almost disappeared.
This is a survival story.
Uh and they almost disappearedfor many, many reasons, one of
which is colonialization.
Uh, one of the stated purposes,and I know the Canadian story
less than the US, but one of thestated purposes of the U.S.
(12:16):
government was to removetransportation from the people
that it wanted to place onreservations and have them stay
there.
Now in Canada, uh, just an asidefor indigenous populations
there, they had to actually havea permission slip, an actual
written permission slip to leavethe reservation.
(12:38):
And this was as late as the1970s.
So the uh one of the reasonstheir horses disappeared,
obviously, is because ofreservations and
colonialization.
But there are other reasons.
Building national parks iswonderful, but because people
read this horse as an invasivespecies and not and did not read
(13:01):
horses as native as they are toNorth America, since horses
originated 50 million years agoin North America, uh, they read
them as invasive and thereforegot rid of a lot more of them.
When they were building up inour area, we have Voyagers
National Park, we have theboundary waters on the Minnesota
side, Quetico Provincial Park onthe Canadian side.
(13:25):
We are just a sea of parkland uphere.
And that did away with a lot ofthe horses because they wanted
them out of the parks.
Another reason is that people,people uh that had them were
poor.
And one thing you can do withhorses is sell them for
slaughter to be made into dogfood and what have you.
(13:47):
And we think a lot of thesehorses were sold when people had
to pick between their horses andtheir children eating.
They picked their children,obviously.
So a lot of these horses we knowwere sold for slaughter.
And so that's another way thatthey disappeared.
There have been massive firesover time in this area, which
probably did in other horses.
(14:09):
Um then the internal combustionengine was kind of the last nail
in the coffin because when thetribes, the the um Anishna Bay,
different tribes and bands,especially in our area, got
particularly snowmobiles becausethey still didn't have roads,
but they got snowmobiles forwinter transport.
(14:31):
And that again was started inthe 1960s and the late 60s.
The symbiotic relationshipbetween the horses and the
people broke down.
And so they stopped taking careof the horses as systematically
in the winter because they hadanother means of transportation.
That was another reason why moreand more horses uh were not
(14:53):
being were not being bred andwere not being kept uh in good
enough flesh for them to surviveour minus 40 winters up here
with very deep snow.
So in the end, in the 1970s,these horses went down to four
mayors only.
So this is this is an enormoussurvival tale.
There were only four mayorsleft.
(15:14):
The last stallion was shot bymayor free, ironically, was shot
because somebody thought thatstallion was a moose.
And horses and moose, I'vemistaken moose for horses a lot
of times, so I can see how thereverse happens.
Uh, horses and moose look a lotalike if you look at them from
(15:36):
the back.
So you would think a very largehorse when you look at the back
of a young moose.
And vice versa.
Of course, they would think asmall moose just right for the
pot, uh, unfortunately, whenthey look at a horse.
So they shot the last stallion,and now they only had four
mayors, and the park was justgetting started, and they were
(15:56):
going to euthanize the last fourmayors.
And what happened is theAnishina Bay bands from the U.S.
side of the border got togetherwith uh some Finnish farmers who
lived up near the border andsaid, we'll smuggle them across,
we'll save those last four.
So they did.
And it's it's quite a lovelystory.
(16:16):
They they had to chase themaround a little bit because two
were not that used to people,two were more used, but they got
them into trailers and theyliterally drove them across the
frozen lake uh at a a shallow, anarrow spot to get them to
Minnesota, and then they werenear the what's called the Boys
Fort Reservation, where they hadbeen wild, but they had already
(16:37):
gone extinct there.
So this was the last four.
They were at Red Lake FirstNation.
Um, sorry, it's not First Nationin the U.S.
I get my Canadian and my U.S.
scrambled a bit, but uh, whichis also on the U.S.
side, right, which is up innorthern Minnesota.
But the Boys Fort is where theycame back after they smuggled
(16:57):
those four mayors across.
And then they said, these arewonderful horses.
Should we just let them die out,just live out their lives and
then pass from uh existence?
And they decided no.
Well, at the time, because DNAwasn't a thing, they didn't
realize they weren't SpanishMustangs.
They thought somehow these areSpanish Mustangs that just got
(17:18):
all the way up north here andlived with the Anishinaabe
people for all that time, butthey're really Spanish Mustangs.
Well, it turns out they weren't,but to save them, they bred them
with Smokey, Spanish MustangRegistry 169, who was very
similarly conformed to theOjibwe horses.
So they bred the four mayors toSmokey and then line bred some
(17:42):
of the fillies, some of thebabies, and eventually the herd
started to grow.
And in the early 2000s, um, RareBreeds Canada, which has since
changed its name, it was listedas one of the rarest horses or
the rarest horse on the Canadianside.
They decided to bring some backacross because they were by then
(18:04):
they were not extinct anymore onthe U.S.
side, but now they're extinct inCanada.
So the Canadians decided tobring some back, and that was
fortuitous because everybody whohad been working with them on
the U.S.
side was getting older andcouldn't afford to keep them and
the herd was getting too big andso forth.
So the Canadians brought themback again just in time.
(18:26):
And the miraculous part aboutthese horses as survivors is
that somebody always seems tostep up when there really is a
danger that they're going to be,they're going to be extinct,
right?
So uh basically they broughtthem back to Canada in about
2001, and it was about 2010 whenI ran, when my horse ran to, my
(18:48):
horse free ran to the Ojibwehorses at this particular farm,
and I got acquainted with them.
And it was two or three moreyears before we got our act
together to get a grant goingand to start Grey Raven Ranch,
and it's G-R-E-Y, Raven Ranch,um, Gray Raven Ranch at Seine
(19:11):
River First Nation, which iswhere I live with my partner,
Darcy Whitecrow.
And we worked with our childrenand other people's children, and
we literally uh we don't have aplace to put fence in the
ground.
We live on granite rock.
So we wrapped the fencingthrough the trees, we wrapped
highway underlayment uh throughand around the trees and tied it
(19:33):
with wire ties, and uh basicallyjust created, we used sticks and
unbarked logs to create a roundpen and again wrapped it around
the trees and uh uh basicallystarted Gray Raven Ranch in
about 2013.
Wow.
And so we've been at this nowfor 12 years officially, and we
(19:57):
started with grant money, we gota small population and started
breeding.
So we've had a few of these gothrough Gray Raven right now.
Um my partner and I are gettinga little bit older, and so we
don't have quite as many horseswith us, but we have a lot of
satellite foster programs thathave our horses that are keeping
(20:18):
maybe a breeding pair for us ora mare that's in full and what
have you.
So we have been also seeding ourhorses as we go because we know
I'm 70 years old, we can't go onforever, although I have a
pregnant mare this year for nextyear, and I'll get into that in
a minute.
But uh, we know that we can't goon forever.
So we are also trying to makesure that there is follow-up to
(20:43):
what we're doing.
And there are not a huge numberof breeders, but there are, let
me see, one, there's us, there'sMatahoke in Canada, uh, there's
Hannah out in Alberta, uhCarolyn in Thunder Bay, Gwen in
Winnipeg.
That's about it for Canada, andthen one breeder, and I'm kind
(21:04):
of both sides of the border inthe U.S.
So there's only we're onlytalking about six or seven
breeding farms right now forthese horses.
But we keep trying to addpeople.
So if anybody's interested, I'dlove to hear from you.
Uh, we keep trying to add peoplewho would be able to take a
breeding pair, for example, or amayor and foal, because we live
(21:24):
in a vet desert where we are.
But uh basically, what has alsohappened, and this is I'll get
to my breeding story here, whathas also happened with these
horses, as you might imaginefrom a very small genetic pool,
is that we have gotten veryinbred.
So I'm the person who does theinbreeding coefficients for
everybody.
(21:44):
I just keep a database and I andour inbreeding coefficients are
way too high.
We're into the teens for almostevery cross I make.
Every now and then I'll find a10 or an 11.
But we need, as geneticists havetold us, we need outcross.
So what uh Gray Raven did, andwe did this a number of years
ago, but then COVID got in theway because we're back and forth
(22:06):
across the Canada-US border, uh,is that we got the most Spanish
Mustang we could find, mostlybecause of Smoky, SMR169.
Uh, and we are breeding to smallsulfur mustangs to try and do
some outcross so that we keepthe genetics healthy.
(22:29):
We know that that Spanish horseis in them now, like almost like
every horse breed on the planet.
They're a creation of humanbeings that put two or three
breeds together like what theygot and then tried to stabilize
it, keeping thosecharacteristics.
So we know what we've got.
We've got that very old threadof that old E-clay DNA plus
(22:50):
smoky SMR 169.
And so we're trying to add in alittle bit more of the Spanish
uh horse DNA with the sulfurs.
And uh so I have a mayorpregnant for next spring, and
then of course, our otherstallion right now is in
Winnipeg, and he has two othermayors pregnant for next spring.
(23:11):
So we try for a baby or twoevery year.
Next spring, if we're very, verylucky, we'll have three.
Last spring we had one.
We had uh we had a she is abruiser of a girl.
Her name is Dibekigizus, theyall have Ojibwe names.
Uh Anishna Be name, Dibeki Gizusis full moon, right?
So uh her name is Full Moonbecause she was born on the full
(23:33):
moon in April.
Uh to a little mayor who'sNigigus, which means little
otter girl, because she's sealbrown.
She's one of those that's notquite black, but almost.
So uh basically we try for oneor two babies a year, and uh
hopefully we'll keep the breedgoing, but also keep the breed
(23:54):
genetically healthy.
So this is this is the project,and this is my, I should say,
retirement project, right?
This is uh what I've been doingin retirement, but also, and the
interesting thing that Imentioned to Joyce is that a lot
of the people who are fosterranches and that we work with
now seeding are also women.
(24:16):
So it's a wonderful network ofwomen horse breeders, right?
There's Gwen in Winnipeg, andthere's Carolyn in Thunder Bay,
and there's M in Wisconsin, andof course, there's me in both
Minnesota and Ontario, andthere's Trina in eastern
Ontario, and there's Hannah outin Alberta.
(24:36):
So we're all of us a group ofwomen, uh, and it just that
wasn't the plan.
We were that was not what wewere planning at all, and I
shouldn't take anything awayfrom my partner, Dar Darcy
Whitecrow, obviously, but it'sreally been wonderful to have
all of this wonderful group ofwomen who are trying in very
(24:57):
determined fashion to keep thisbreed going, right?
And uh so I guess Joyce, I don'tknow what questions do you have
or which direction should I go?
SPEAKER_02 (25:07):
Oh, that was just that was just amazing.
I loved every minute of it, andI love how you brought in at the
end of what you were telling usis about the women, because
knowing horses and being aroundthem all my life, that says so
much about the breed of thehorse and their disposition and
(25:29):
how they are for women to beable to come in and be part of
that breeding, and the stallionshave got to be just amazing on
how they behave and theirdisposition, and I just I love
that.
We are coming down on gettingclose to having to close this
(25:53):
great conversation, which Icould talk to Kim for hours.
We could go on and on abouthorses.
SPEAKER_00 (25:59):
We could, but the stallions we can have we can
have four-year-olds and have hadaround our stallions.
These horses are so kind.
My senior stallion, the one whojust bred two mares, he'll be 18
next year.
Um, he will just stand and lickmy hand for hours and hours and
hours, right?
He's just he's so affectionate.
(26:19):
We can have he's the horse thatI trusted after a hip
replacement to get on first.
The first horse I got on was mystallion.
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (26:29):
That's just how the breed is.
We can have them around littlekids.
We do a program in Quetico Parkevery um Labor Day weekend, and
they have hundreds of people.
A lot of children are in there.
We can have the children in thepen with the horses.
They're all just the very firsttime, they're just fine.
Our little mayor, uh my my ownkids decided at one point, and I
(26:53):
hadn't actually started thismayor.
Oh, we need a little horse forthese little kids.
Let's use Nagyig.
All she did, she'd never hadanybody on her back before.
Apparently, the kids said, Oh,what was the problem?
All she did was look around andsay, Oh, that's new and
different.
Okay.
Just there was not an issue,right?
They are so easy to work with.
(27:14):
And from the stallions to themayors, right?
They're just really, really aneasy-going, affectionate breed.
So it's their personality wewant them for.
As much as they they look likehorses, they don't look like
ponies.
You can't tell how big they areuntil you get some kind of clear
size reference next to them,right?
(27:34):
Uh, so they look like a horse,but they're a little bit
smaller.
As I say, the tallest ones are14 hands, 14-1.
And uh, as I say, they're justvery people-oriented and very
kind, and we love them for thatas much as their striking good
looks.
SPEAKER_02 (27:52):
So that is just incredible, Kim.
Oh, I just love that.
And their disposition, I canjust I can just picture all of
that in my mind and what kind ofa horse you are talking about,
and that is just beautiful.
And what a beautiful way tobring in to our listeners about
(28:13):
the beginning of me.
Like you said, this is part ofyour retirement with these
horses, and expressing how womencan get involved in this, and
just by reaching out, anyhorse-loving women out there
that have been looking forsomething like this.
This is just amazing.
Just absolutely amazing.
(28:34):
What a beautiful, beautiful wayto start a new year and a
beginning of me with horses.
Because horses are just they'reamazing, amazing animals.
They're just magical for me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:46):
So well, it certainly was a new beginning
for me because although I'vebeen around horses all of my
life, I had not even thoughtabout running a non for
endangered horses.
Yeah.
I mean, I was a professor ofphilology, which is endangered
languages, and I still work onindigenous languages and
(29:07):
different, but I had not thoughtabout, I would not even have
thought myself capable ofrunning a nonprofit for
endangered horses.
Right.
And so this is a project Istarted in retirement.
So that that is one of thethings that that I would say.
It's good to start somethingnew.
Retiring is not the end, it'sthe beginning.
SPEAKER_02 (29:27):
Exactly.
Oh, I love that.
That is just beautiful.
And what a beautiful way thisshow has gone so quickly.
And what a beautiful way to endthat on what you just said, Kim.
I want to thank you so very muchfor sharing from your heart
about Grey Raven Ranch and theOjibwa horses, Ojibwe horses,
(29:52):
because I could totally tell youwere talking from the heart.
Every word you spoke was truelove for these horses.
And I just love it.
Love that.
I want to thank you so much,Kim, for all everything you are
doing for these horses and forsharing it with here on Divas
That Care.
SPEAKER_00 (30:11):
Thank you so much, Joyce, for having me again.
SPEAKER_02 (30:14):
You are so welcome.
And with that, listeners, I wantto thank you for tuning in to
this magical show with KimCampbell.
And remember the Gray RavenRanch, Ojibwe horses.
And I want to wish all of you avery magical day and magical
year to come.
And with that, goodbye to all.
SPEAKER_01 (30:37):
Thanks for listening.
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