From the gritty streets of a low socioeconomic childhood to the corporate halls of Grant Thornton, Jenn Barnett's journey is a masterclass in resilience and vision. Her story isn't just about overcoming odds; it's about transforming them into a ladder for others to ascend. As a psychologist turned champion for inclusion and diversity, Jenn unveils the intricate dance between personal growth and professional innovation, and how her past fuels her relentless pursuit to cultivate an environment where everyone thrives.
This episode is a mosaic of experiences, from Jenn's early fascination with human behavior to her dynamic roles across industries, all converging to shape her understanding of the power of diversity in decision-making. You're invited on a voyage through the shifting landscapes of workplace culture, where the courage to embrace the unfamiliar paves the way for groundbreaking ideas. Our conversation traverses the delicate balance of fostering growth through challenge while ensuring a foundation of security, revealing how diverse teams are not just morally right but business-savvy.
As we wrap up, Jenn imparts her wisdom on the complexities of embedding diversity within the DNA of an organization. Crafting strategies that resonate with the unique challenges of varied groups, she emphasizes the critical role of mentorship and sponsorship, the strategic application of data, and the overarching importance of psychological safety in driving inclusive change. Through Jenn's lens, we grasp the significance of resilience, the impact of trust, and the unwavering optimism needed to sow the seeds of diversity for a more robust future in business. Join us, and be inspired to be an agent of change in your own sphere.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to Diverse, inclusive Leaders.
This is a show where I speakfor the most inspirational and
thought provoking leaders oftoday and unearth their unique
stories of diversity andinclusion to help inspire,
educate and motivate others tomake the world a better place.
Today, I am joined by JenBarnett, director and head of
inclusion and diversity and ESGat Grant Thornton.
(00:31):
In addition to the day job, jenis a non-executive director,
psychologist, coach, supervisor,mental health expert, access
accountancy trustee, lordTavernas board member and also a
judge on the social mobilitytask force, board Pugh.
Welcome to the show, jen.
Hi hi, laila, lovely to be here.
(00:55):
It's lovely to have you here.
Finally, and I would love forthose that don't know you as
well as I do, to give us alittle bit of a favor of how you
came to be where you are todayand the journey to date.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'll keep this fairly brief.
I'm a psychologist bybackground, always has an
interest in people.
I think it came from havingquite a disrupted childhood,
should we say.
I came from a divorced family,a very low socioeconomic
background to myself, and also Ihad a real interest in the way
(01:37):
that people are motivated, howthey tick.
Psychology was the root for meand I think that led me to a
number of people type roles.
I found that a number of peopleroles within organizations
tended to be led quite heavilyby process and I was more
interested in one of thecultural dynamics, one of the
(01:59):
things that we need to shift inorder for people to do their
best work and feel that they'rebest, and that had led me into
various cultural change rolesand then eventually into
inclusion and diversity.
When that became something thatGrant Horton as a business
really wanted to focus on, whichwas about five years ago, and
(02:22):
we wanted to focus on it becausewe wanted to improve belonging
and inclusion for all and weknew that diverse
characteristics had certainbarriers that really needed to
focus on, to overcome, to enablediversity to thrive and put the
pipelines to come through.
So inclusion and diversity kindof became a natural home for me
(02:43):
, I guess from a background ofpsychology.
And then, more lastly, asg,because that's really about how
do you create the environment toenable people to feel
responsible for thatsustainability of your business.
And a lot of the work we do incommunity impact is strongly
(03:03):
correlated with the work that wedo to support underprivileged
people into employment and,obviously, the work that we do
around the environment.
The gender is about creatingthat better planet, so there is
definite synergy in the roles,and that's how I've ended up
where I am today.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
That is some whiff of Mark-Jan.
Thank you so much and I reallyappreciate you sharing as well
the personal background comingfrom a low socioeconomic
background divorce, family yetstill being able to have the
tenacity of the resilience to gofrom strength to strength, not
(03:43):
only in the previous roles thatyou've done and work, but you
know the BAE systems of theworld and other blue chips
pre-grand-born turn.
Did you see when you were kindof you know, back at university,
I think, went to NewcastleUniversity as well?
I'm not sure what you studied,but I would love to know more?
Did you see this being kind ofalmost a goal that you were
(04:07):
aspiring to reach, or was itmore organic from the psychology
and then layering on thebusiness aspects on top of that?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It was definitely organic it was organic.
I think at the time, wheneveryou're I think most people will
feel this when they're studyingit's a case of you get
interested in a topic and youthen find out as much as you can
about that topic to me at thepsychology and then you find
(04:37):
ways to apply that into intobusiness.
So I was interested, I wascurious.
I was always interested andcurious and I wanted to learn,
and I think that they were thetraits that took me from
university into the world ofwork and I think that I would
love to say I had a real goal towork for a particular company
doing a particular thing.
(04:58):
But it was definitely theopportunities arose.
I try.
I was very happy to try outdifferent things and I thought
if I didn't work I would trysomething out.
But I think I've always had alove of and an interest in the
way our brains work, which iswhy I became very interested in
mental health.
I would say that's an area ofdeep expertise now, because I
(05:20):
don't believe you can perform atyour best if you're not fully
cognizant of your own anxieties,your own issues about how, what
holds you back yourself andthen how you can help other
people to overcome that.
In themselves.
I think business is people areintrinsically linked and
(05:41):
definitely as you become asenior and become a leader, you
realise that actually a lot ofyour role is motivating people
to perform, and I think the onlyway you can really motivate
people to perform is if you havea real interest and curiosity
in what makes that personperform at their best.
So I would say it's organic.
It's definitely served me wellin terms of the role that I do
(06:04):
now.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It's fascinating because you went around the
front and then you went toBritish Airways.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
At British Airports Authority.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yes, indeed, how did you find the change from the
services business into then the?
You know the various otherindustries that you'd gone in
throughout the course of thecareer.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Very different.
Again, that's probably organic.
It was trying out differentthings, understanding, and I
think I tend to move with peopleI know.
So the reason I moved to BAAwas because I knew the person
that had been brought in tochange the culture there and to
move it into a different place,and the opportunity presented
(06:52):
itself that just felt soexciting because it was all
about culture change for BritishAirports Authority and they run
up to Olympic Games.
So it was how do you supportthat shift in behaviour to
create that better customerexperience through the airports?
And they run up to the Gamesbecause the whole world would be
looking at you through airports.
So it just felt like too goodan opportunity to not do that.
(07:17):
I find that working in differentenvironments and different
industries are they give yougrowth.
I wouldn't necessarily say thatsome of it is positive growth,
but they're all growthopportunity and you know, in the
airport it's 24-7 all the time.
It's metallic and it's crisisafter crisis that you tend to
(07:41):
get brought into, so very highenergy environment and some
people love that.
Some people find that verystressful.
So I think it is quite a lotpersonality dependent and, yeah,
professional services hasdifferent pressure points and
(08:03):
very different ways of working,but interesting nonetheless in
terms of making thosecomparisons.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I think it's fascinating the diversity of
industry as well, something thatwe don't often always speak
about, and I used to.
Well, the pre-running dial, Iworked in exec search and you
know we often wanted to hirepeople from the same place with
the same skill set, and you knowa lot of that time was then
(08:33):
spent kind of convincing whetherit was hiring managers,
organizations, to look at thediversity of sector as well as
the diversity that sits withinour own personal characteristics
, you know, sits below thesurface, thinking outside of the
box to drive that greaterinnovation and skills into an
(08:53):
organization that may have donethings a very similar way and
expected same results every time.
And yeah, that's.
That's something that justreally struck me as you were
starting to speak then.
So I think some of the you know, some of the most successful
professionals I've spoken tohave had a broad brush range of
industries underneath their belt, because those people, skills
(09:18):
and the ability to navigatefast-moving environments and
different workplaces has servedthem very well.
When it comes to the peoplepart, you know, because that is
the, you know, that's the living, the sleeping, the breathing
pieces, that culture and youknow modern-day world, working
(09:39):
with that agility and that speedis absolutely crucial to
success and innovation, and Ithink it was Matthew Syard, when
Matthew Syard said that growthcomes at that point when you're
likely uncomfortable and youdon't know the map ahead and
change is uncertain and youyou're actually uncomfortable in
(10:03):
in a space.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's when the growth happens.
And I think, as humans, we'rean oxymoron because we really
really enjoy growth and we likelearning, like you must, but we
also really like stability andwe like to know what we're doing
the next day and you know welike repetitive things in our
lives and we like that stabilityas well as the growth.
(10:25):
So how do you balance those twoto enable you to have to be
able to do your best work?
Really, because you need tohave the security to know that
you're good at what you do andthat you're able to transfer the
skills and, at the same time,enable yourself to have that
growth and that learning bymaking itself a little bit
(10:45):
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
It's such an interesting concept because we
do all love that security andthe security blanket of doing
similar things.
Yet that is sometimes where thebest pieces of innovation and
learning come from.
When you start to look back atelements, pivotal places almost
in the career, where it's like,oh my goodness, do not know what
(11:09):
is happening at this point, butactually the deepest level of
learning is coming from thatchange, that innovation, even
though it may not feel it out atthe time, which leads us really
nicely into us talking aboutthe change that has happened
over the last decade and wherewe see the future headed.
It's something I'm so curiousto ask you about because
(11:31):
obviously, the world ofdiversity and inclusion, ind,
dni, diversity and Inclusion,belonging equity culture, or
Dibeck as we call it has beensuch an evolving cycle and, on
this backdrop of what ishappening, with geopolitical
issues and almost quitepolarizing narratives at time,
(11:52):
how do you see this playing outin the role and you know where
do you feel we've come from andwhere do you think we're headed?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, it's a really interesting question, nolan.
I guess I can break it downinto a few parts, but I think
there's something about theevolution of the skills.
I think when IND first became athing, it started to become
something ahead of IND.
(12:23):
Well, it started to becomereally popular about five years.
Four or five years ago, a lotof companies were starting to
see that there was a businessrisk here, potentially, so there
was a need to start looking atit from a commercial business
perspective.
Then we were recruiting headsof IND.
Now, what I don't think we'veactually done with heads of IND
(12:45):
yet is really establish what theskill set is that is required
to enable change in a businessand to enable businesses to
start to think about IND in anot just the commercial way, but
in a way that supportsinnovation, in a way that
supports growth, in a way thatsupports different thinking.
(13:07):
I don't know if you've read it,but there was a Forbes article
that was printed and Forbes hadstudied and asked us.
It was a Clover Popdecision-making database and
they'd studied 600 businessdecisions made in 200 different
businesses.
What they found was that,compared to individual decision
(13:28):
makers, all male teams madebetter decisions 58% of the time
.
So it's better to have morepeople involved in decisions.
That's a good thing, ratherthan making them on your own.
If you have gender diverseteams, that increased to 73% and
then if you had a wide range ofages and different geographical
locations, then that team madebetter decisions 87% of the time
(13:50):
.
I think it's definitely evolved, in terms of thinking about the
long-term impact of focusing oninvestment and inclusion, from
something that was about peopleand helping people to feel that
they belonged.
I think there is still a focuson that and I think that is a
very important aspect of thework that the DNI professionals
(14:13):
do that importance of communitybuilding, that importance of
people feeling protected, one ofthe most vulnerable, and that
is really important.
That's strengthened by theprocesses in an organisation, by
the capacity that you have tohave really inclusive workforces
.
I think it's moving now towardsbeing able to articulate what
(14:33):
those outcomes are that you'retrying to achieve.
The point that you made aboutgeopolitical landscape how are
businesses responding to that?
How are they becoming resilientto risk?
Because those geopoliticalissues are really increasing and
that polarisation of views inbusinesses is something that
it's the tension, that conflict,that tension.
(14:55):
How do you hold those two?
How do you recognise that is arisk to a business and how do
you hold those two in highregard in the same organisation?
The danger is, if you've gottwo opposing views I'll take the
example of Garza at the moment,if you protect one side more
(15:16):
than the other, then it could beseen as a portrayal.
And also you've got theequality act increasingly
looking at who it's choosing toprotect and why.
So when you're going to haveopposing, conflicting views,
both being protected by theequality act gender critical
beliefs and transgender beliefsyou're going to have that in a
(15:37):
business as well.
So how do you get your businessresilient to that risk?
And then you're looking at okay,so if that's an outcome, if
that's an outcome that I'mlooking to achieve, what are the
inputs and the activities thatI need to get there?
And also, I think there's thisview that, as I indeed
professional, it's understandinglike what psychological safety
(15:58):
is, what are the components ofthat from a cultural perspective
?
How do you create that safety tospeak up and also increase that
emotional connection to yourbrand and to your business?
Because actually it does createbetter business decisions, it
does create wealth creation, itdoes get better client
engagement, but it's trying tomake that link, I think, which
(16:18):
is where, as the IND Agendamatures, is where I think we
need to be heading as aprofession.
And then I think the other thingto think about is what skills
are required in an INDprofessional to do that and to
enable that healthy conflict.
So, moving away from thinkingI'm right, you're wrong, I've
(16:40):
won, you've lost, to thinkingabout what's the deeper truth
that we're trying to get to andtrying to unravel that so that
it's removing those barriers andgetting to that deeper truth,
or it's creating innovationthrough new possibilities that
you've got to opposing viewssomewhere in.
That is a new way of takingthat forward to a new
(17:00):
possibility.
So it's encouraging andincreasing innovation.
And it's this point arounddiscomfort I talked about
previously that it's only indiscomfort that you can get
growth.
You can't get growth in comfort.
So it's almost encouraging thatconversation to enable that
growth to happen.
(17:21):
And I think that really goodIND professionals have this real
opportunity to be at the heartof that and start connecting
that with the real businessimperative around the importance
of innovation, the importanceof growth.
How do you get people into thatmindset?
You can get them into thatmindset through their ability to
have healthy conflict withdifference.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh, my goodness, so much of what you've said there.
I was holding myself back fromtrying to interrupt because
there's so much that you'vecovered and it's interesting
that you talk about discomfortis the place that we get growth.
I completely agree.
Additionally, I've mulled a lotrecently on how world trends or
(18:10):
world issues have affected theprofession and obviously, on the
one hand, when you look atthings like Israel, gaza, it is
so divided.
Chief execs are worrying abouthow they try and support both
sides.
It feels very divided andalmost harder to a certain
(18:30):
extent.
When we hear the brutal mergerof George Floyd and we hear
about Ukraine and Russia, italmost feels an easier place to
say right versus wrong.
And obviously we saw a hugeuptick in organizations
recruiting for diversityprofessionals.
(18:51):
On the one hand, I think thisis wonderful because this is
exactly what we need, butequally, you worry that some of
this could have beenperformative, because actually
there's such a it feels like alot of the industry is a little
at the mercy of some of theworld issues.
Again, no, just a reflectionthat, but I mean I'd love to
(19:12):
know what your thoughts are,because it is being a
rollercoaster, hasn't it overthe last couple of years?
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And I think it's not helped by the polarization of
sensation like headlines.
I think it's definitely seen anincrease in it since COVID.
Whether COVID's had an impacton that I don't know, but I
definitely think there's been ashift in the way that social
(19:39):
media is utilized to create newsabout things and actually we
run a bullying and harassmentwebinar and part of that is
actually saying to people wouldyou state the same things to
somebody's faith that you see onsocial media and would you do
that and it's a very powerfultechnique because it is a form
(20:01):
of bullying and harassment, butit's also a form of expressing
your viewpoints and your viewsare valid and your views are
equally as valid as my views.
They might be different and Ithink it's a very delicate
balance that you're treadingbetween what support you give
(20:25):
and how you give that in anequal way versus your own
personal beliefs.
So I might have very strongbeliefs that I might believe in
one side more than the other ifwe're talking about side team
winning and losing, but actuallymy role is not to bring that
(20:47):
into it.
My role is to understand thedifferent truths and work out
common ground to enable thingsto move forward.
So I do think it's reallycomplex and I think there's
geopolitical issue are we don'tknow what's gonna hit us next
and in the future, but one thingthat can guarantee is there
(21:07):
will be more, so they are notgoing away, and it's how we
choose to respond to that andhow we build a skill and the
resilience in our individuals toenable us to respond to that in
a positive and constructive way.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
It's fascinating because when you see to your
point some of these concerningheadlines at least, I think to
myself oh my goodness, words,they hold such an immense
influence.
They've got this power to uniteor divide, and power or
marginalize.
All of these different thingsshape perceptions of what is a
(21:52):
deeply rooted, very, verycomplex subject.
And when you said that the roleof the IND exec is not to
necessarily get personal viewsinvolved but actually to pull
that back into tangible actions,responses that are going to
(22:14):
drive better business outcomes,it really makes such a lot of
sense.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, I think it's moving it away and I think this
is where we've been with IMGthat it has been about people
and that is really importantaspect of our agenda that it is
about people, it is aboutbelonging, it's about supporting
the most marginalized and themost vulnerable.
It is also a really, reallyimportant business driver that.
(22:47):
I think there's a little bit.
The danger with thepolarization of views on all of
the social media is you start tolose that along the way and
actually it is a commercialdriver for any business to be
able to really deal with some ofthis and to have the stretch
and the skill and then theirbusiness to actually support it.
And I think if you can do that,then you're much more able to
(23:10):
create a more sustainable andresilient business model and you
do get better innovation andyou get better ideas.
So I do think there are twothings of idea.
I think it's the people aspectand it's the belonging, and it
is the diversity, and it's thetargets and everything else.
And there's also a much biggerpoint around how does this link
to where we're going as abusiness?
(23:30):
How is this going to help us tobe successful in what we're
trying to do and therefore, howdoes that have an impact on the
broader society as well?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
When I've seen some of these headlines recently and
presenting at variousconferences, I said don't just
believe these headlines, becausepeople can lie but the data
doesn't.
And so it's how you transcendthis power of importance when it
comes to storytelling, but,equally, driving the longer term
sustainable growthopportunities through commercial
(24:05):
output.
And again, reflecting on ourconversation, and something that
I've seen over the last five,ten years, is that diversity was
seen as this nice to have,still a lovely, fluffy kind of
thing, and I think it's, in oneway, the very worst situation
because the second we start tosee it as something which is
(24:28):
fluffy and a nice to have, eventhough most people know it is a
moral imperative, it starts toshift away from the importance
of this as a diversity being acommercial leave of economic
growth and prosperity, which iseverything that you are saying
here is.
Words have got these andstories have got a brilliant
(24:49):
power to be able to influenceproactively but equally, data,
statistics, numbers to drivebetter business outcomes, with
the examples you gave there fromForbes, you know we've been
hearing for the last 10, 20years and seeing in the research
that this does drive betterengagement, therefore
(25:09):
profitability to hit the bottomline, which is, you know, in a
climate that we're in aneconomic uncertainty, I really
believe that it is the answerand solution to unlock better
outcomes.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And it's and isn't it .
It's the right thing to do andit's the right thing to provide
that environment to people,because we know and I apologize,
I know that you can onlyperform at your best when you
feel psychologically safe.
Otherwise, new ideas, innovation, ability to think in a
different way, the auto shutsdown, your defence mechanisms
(25:45):
come into your brain, everythingshuts down.
You're not in a position.
If you're really stressed andyou're feeling unsafe and you're
feeling devalued, all of thatshuts down.
So that that is so that peopleaspect is really, really
important, because to get thebest out of people and to get
the best idea, there is abusiness connection.
It's how you then use thelanguage to commercialise it.
(26:08):
It feels connected and I thinkthere is a danger and I do think
that it's important that wehave lots of networks and we
have lots of you know, safespace for people to talk.
We do have events and things,but there is a little bit of a
danger that we've moved moreinto that and I think it just
needs to be rebalanced back towhy we're doing this and why
(26:28):
it's important.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
The piece around risk as well I was just reflecting
again on the conversation is theimpact of inaction far
outweighs the risk that I thinkorganisations see in spending or
investing more in this, whichis kind of crazy because you
(26:56):
think, well, given what we'reseeing in the press, if we do
not lean into this and continueto invest in it right now,
actually the amount that couldalso cost businesses in the long
term is astronomical.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and I think there's the most, I would say.
A lot of businesses are tunedinto that.
Now they understand thatthere's a big risk element to it
and there's also a potentialgrowth element to it as well.
So there is both.
So I think that that has beenrecognised.
(27:32):
It's more a question of wheredoes it go next and its maturity
, and I think all businesses areat different points, aren't
they in the maturity of theiragenda?
And I also think that the datapoint that you mentioned is
really important, because thathelps businesses to understand
where some of their challengesreally are.
(27:53):
And I think the other pointthat's really important is
really understanding from yourdiverse populations what the
barriers are that exist withinyour own organisation and what
you can do to really act on thatand to put those things right
to make a difference.
And I think there's.
You know there has to be anincentive or a motivation to
(28:19):
make those changes happen beforeyou ask people on the problem,
because otherwise you raiseexpectations and if nothing
changes, it can create apathyand disappointment.
So that's why I think it'scomplicated, because you want to
know what the problems are, butthe solutions are quite
sometimes very complex and hardto put into play and, as you say
(28:41):
you know there's no one cookiecutter model size fits all,
which I think you know.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I hear this a lot.
It's just give us a solution.
Give us a solution.
There is no one cookie cuttermodel size fits all, because
every different business has adifferent culture.
There's different expectations.
The stakeholder groups you knowyour employee resource groups,
your diverse and inclusionprofessionals, each of our
leaders, increasingly, you knowinvestors and others on the
board.
(29:06):
You know it is.
You know it's mild wide andit's mild easy.
It's mild wide and it's milddeep, isn't it?
And so diagnosing thosespecific areas with then
specific, tangible actions, iskey for us to continue evolving
within each and every one.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And it's also about focus, because you could do you
could do 100 things in a weekand sometimes it feels like
throwing a little water scenesticks and actually if you have
the data and you have the focusgroups, you're able to focus
your attention.
And we've only got limitedreasons and limited time and
(29:44):
business leaders have gotlimited resources and limited
time.
So it's one of the two or threethings that will be really
impactful to take it forward.
And at Grand Fault and we'vebeen we spent quite a long time
building a sponsorship programlast year which was asking our
you know, really experiencedpartners and directors and
leaders to sponsor diversetalent.
(30:05):
So that is a program thatrequires investment, time and
resource, but actually all ofour leaders have responded very
well to that and structured, andit's a program that's in place
and we'll measure it tounderstand the impact on the
tension, and so that was onething that we did.
(30:27):
But the ripple effects of thatare lots of time, lots of
attention and lots of investmentin the problem of progressing
diverse talent in our business.
So I think once you'veidentified the real issue, then
we can start to put thesolutions in place that we need
to put in place.
Yeah, hard work.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Hard work, but also unwavering optimism as well,
because I think you knoweverything goes through these
cyclical cycles.
Naturally, you know when youhave brilliant individuals like
yourself and other directors whoare willing to sponsor programs
to make a difference.
Actually, sometimes patience isa virtue because we know the
great things innovation,profitability will come out of
(31:13):
all of that work.
Before we run out of time, jen,I'd love to ask a couple of
little lightning round questions, because I could spend actually
all afternoon podcasting, Ithink, couldn't we quite?
I'm going to give you 30seconds or thereabouts.
Don't be too strict on the lastcouple of questions that I'll
(31:35):
ask.
I'm going to start with hardestone first is what would you say
has been your secret to success, or is that one, I think?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I think it's like the ability to bounce back.
So I have pretty good bounceability and for things can get
down you know they do I do havean wavering optimism and I do
think that sees me through.
So I guess you might call itresilience, you might call it
bounce ability.
I think that that's the thingit's not being too disheartened
(32:05):
by your failures or yourmistakes or your wrong turns or
your disappointment, and pickingyourself back up quickly and
putting yourself on a differenttrack.
I think that's probably beenthe biggest thing that has
helped me to be successful.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Any hero she rose, anyone that's made a mark
difference to you.
I'm sure there's many.
Give me one or two.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, there's a number that tend to be
influenced by famous people, butby by people that I know and
who I care about and who have aninfluence on my life.
So, given my childhood, I tendto take quite a long time to
trust somebody.
That when I trust them, I'lltend to go to them for mentoring
(32:56):
and relationships.
And I still, actually, in my BAsystems day, I had a boss there
who who is still my mentor nowand I will speak to so that 20
year relationship.
So I would probably say they'remy heroes, the people that I
feel I can really trust, thatwill have my best interests at
heart, who I can go and talk toabout these things.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I love that real models we often call the that
are real models over role modelssometimes and people who have
had the belief.
I think it makes such a huge,huge difference.
And finally, if you give youryounger self any advice, is
there anything that you mightmight say?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, I would say be less hard on yourself and
believe, just trust yourself abit more.
I think I have a really goodinstinct, but when I in my
younger self, I didn'tnecessarily trust this instinct.
(34:07):
So I think it's yeah, I thinkit's probably trust my instinct.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Jen, thank you so much.
It has been a fabulous podcastand I feel there's been so many
learnings from this session.
I'm thinking about where tostart but, for those that are
listening, really consideringthe greater business impact,
thinking about the fact that wemust be resilient during times
(34:36):
of change and also beconsidering the longer term
impact of the actions that weare taking.
Particularly enjoyed the piecearound innovation and almost
this pain point of when we feelthat it is hard really leaning
into that discomfort in order tothen reap some of the benefits
(34:59):
that come out of the other side,and also the and, given the
cultural dynamics that we'reseeing geopolitical aspects out
in the world at the moment, Ilove the talk around healthy,
healthy conflict.
There isn't always a right or awrong answer.
(35:21):
Sometimes it's actually okay tobe within the grain.
So when you come back to thecommercial business perspective
and the fact that actually weknow that the numbers are
telling us the truth and that isthat this drives better
decision making, drives bettereconomic opportunity and outputs
(35:42):
for all, because we all knowthat that sense of belonging and
engagement is why we remainwhere we are within our
organisations, and so that wassomething that was a really
interesting reflection pointthere as well.
So, jen, thank you ever so much.
It's been really fun.
(36:04):
My name is Layla McKenzie,dallas, founder and CEO of
Darglobal.
You've been listening to thediverse inclusive leaders
podcast show with the brilliantJen Barnett of Brant Thornton.
You can check out all of ourshow notes online.
You can visit us on our on yourfavourite podcast out there
Apple, spotify, whichever oneyou choose or directly at
(36:24):
wwwdarglobalorg forward slashpodcast, and we'll look forward
to seeing you again very soon.
Hello and welcome to Diverse, inclusive Leaders.
This is a show where I speakfor the most inspirational and
thought provoking leaders oftoday and unearth their unique
stories of diversity andinclusion to help inspire,
educate and motivate others tomake the world a better place.
Today, I am joined by JenBarnett, director and head of
inclusion and diversity and ESGat Grant Thornton.
(00:31):
In addition to the day job, jenis a non-executive director,
psychologist, coach, supervisor,mental health expert, access
accountancy trustee, lordTavernas board member and also a
judge on the social mobilitytask force, board Pugh.
Welcome to the show, jen.
Hi hi, laila, lovely to be here.
(00:55):
It's lovely to have you here.
Finally, and I would love forthose that don't know you as
well as I do, to give us alittle bit of a favor of how you
came to be where you are todayand the journey to date.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'll keep this fairly brief.
I'm a psychologist bybackground, always has an
interest in people.
I think it came from havingquite a disrupted childhood,
should we say.
I came from a divorced family,a very low socioeconomic
background to myself, and also Ihad a real interest in the way
(01:37):
that people are motivated, howthey tick.
Psychology was the root for meand I think that led me to a
number of people type roles.
I found that a number of peopleroles within organizations
tended to be led quite heavilyby process and I was more
interested in one of thecultural dynamics, one of the
(01:59):
things that we need to shift inorder for people to do their
best work and feel that they'rebest, and that had led me into
various cultural change rolesand then eventually into
inclusion and diversity.
When that became something thatGrant Horton as a business
really wanted to focus on, whichwas about five years ago, and
(02:22):
we wanted to focus on it becausewe wanted to improve belonging
and inclusion for all and weknew that diverse
characteristics had certainbarriers that really needed to
focus on, to overcome, to enablediversity to thrive and put the
pipelines to come through.
So inclusion and diversity kindof became a natural home for me
(02:43):
, I guess from a background ofpsychology.
And then, more lastly, asg,because that's really about how
do you create the environment toenable people to feel
responsible for thatsustainability of your business.
And a lot of the work we do incommunity impact is strongly
(03:03):
correlated with the work that wedo to support underprivileged
people into employment and,obviously, the work that we do
around the environment.
The gender is about creatingthat better planet, so there is
definite synergy in the roles,and that's how I've ended up
where I am today.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
That is some whiff of Mark-Jan.
Thank you so much and I reallyappreciate you sharing as well
the personal background comingfrom a low socioeconomic
background divorce, family yetstill being able to have the
tenacity of the resilience to gofrom strength to strength, not
(03:43):
only in the previous roles thatyou've done and work, but you
know the BAE systems of theworld and other blue chips
pre-grand-born turn.
Did you see when you were kindof you know, back at university,
I think, went to NewcastleUniversity as well?
I'm not sure what you studied,but I would love to know more?
Did you see this being kind ofalmost a goal that you were
(04:07):
aspiring to reach, or was itmore organic from the psychology
and then layering on thebusiness aspects on top of that?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
It was definitely organic it was organic.
I think at the time, wheneveryou're I think most people will
feel this when they're studyingit's a case of you get
interested in a topic and youthen find out as much as you can
about that topic to me at thepsychology and then you find
(04:37):
ways to apply that into intobusiness.
So I was interested, I wascurious.
I was always interested andcurious and I wanted to learn,
and I think that they were thetraits that took me from
university into the world ofwork and I think that I would
love to say I had a real goal towork for a particular company
doing a particular thing.
(04:58):
But it was definitely theopportunities arose.
I try.
I was very happy to try outdifferent things and I thought
if I didn't work I would trysomething out.
But I think I've always had alove of and an interest in the
way our brains work, which iswhy I became very interested in
mental health.
I would say that's an area ofdeep expertise now, because I
(05:20):
don't believe you can perform atyour best if you're not fully
cognizant of your own anxieties,your own issues about how, what
holds you back yourself andthen how you can help other
people to overcome that.
In themselves.
I think business is people areintrinsically linked and
(05:41):
definitely as you become asenior and become a leader, you
realise that actually a lot ofyour role is motivating people
to perform, and I think the onlyway you can really motivate
people to perform is if you havea real interest and curiosity
in what makes that personperform at their best.
So I would say it's organic.
It's definitely served me wellin terms of the role that I do
(06:04):
now.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
It's fascinating because you went around the
front and then you went toBritish Airways.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
At British Airports Authority.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yes, indeed, how did you find the change from the
services business into then the?
You know the various otherindustries that you'd gone in
throughout the course of thecareer.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Very different.
Again, that's probably organic.
It was trying out differentthings, understanding, and I
think I tend to move with peopleI know.
So the reason I moved to BAAwas because I knew the person
that had been brought in tochange the culture there and to
move it into a different place,and the opportunity presented
(06:52):
itself that just felt soexciting because it was all
about culture change for BritishAirports Authority and they run
up to Olympic Games.
So it was how do you supportthat shift in behaviour to
create that better customerexperience through the airports?
And they run up to the Gamesbecause the whole world would be
looking at you through airports.
So it just felt like too goodan opportunity to not do that.
(07:17):
I find that working in differentenvironments and different
industries are they give yougrowth.
I wouldn't necessarily say thatsome of it is positive growth,
but they're all growthopportunity and you know, in the
airport it's 24-7 all the time.
It's metallic and it's crisisafter crisis that you tend to
(07:41):
get brought into, so very highenergy environment and some
people love that.
Some people find that verystressful.
So I think it is quite a lotpersonality dependent and, yeah,
professional services hasdifferent pressure points and
(08:03):
very different ways of working,but interesting nonetheless in
terms of making thosecomparisons.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I think it's fascinating the diversity of
industry as well, something thatwe don't often always speak
about, and I used to.
Well, the pre-running dial, Iworked in exec search and you
know we often wanted to hirepeople from the same place with
the same skill set, and you knowa lot of that time was then
(08:33):
spent kind of convincing whetherit was hiring managers,
organizations, to look at thediversity of sector as well as
the diversity that sits withinour own personal characteristics
, you know, sits below thesurface, thinking outside of the
box to drive that greaterinnovation and skills into an
(08:53):
organization that may have donethings a very similar way and
expected same results every time.
And yeah, that's.
That's something that justreally struck me as you were
starting to speak then.
So I think some of the you know, some of the most successful
professionals I've spoken tohave had a broad brush range of
industries underneath their belt, because those people, skills
(09:18):
and the ability to navigatefast-moving environments and
different workplaces has servedthem very well.
When it comes to the peoplepart, you know, because that is
the, you know, that's the living, the sleeping, the breathing
pieces, that culture and youknow modern-day world, working
(09:39):
with that agility and that speedis absolutely crucial to
success and innovation, and Ithink it was Matthew Syard, when
Matthew Syard said that growthcomes at that point when you're
likely uncomfortable and youdon't know the map ahead and
change is uncertain and youyou're actually uncomfortable in
(10:03):
in a space.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's when the growth happens.
And I think, as humans, we'rean oxymoron because we really
really enjoy growth and we likelearning, like you must, but we
also really like stability andwe like to know what we're doing
the next day and you know welike repetitive things in our
lives and we like that stabilityas well as the growth.
(10:25):
So how do you balance those twoto enable you to have to be
able to do your best work?
Really, because you need tohave the security to know that
you're good at what you do andthat you're able to transfer the
skills and, at the same time,enable yourself to have that
growth and that learning bymaking itself a little bit
(10:45):
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
It's such an interesting concept because we
do all love that security andthe security blanket of doing
similar things.
Yet that is sometimes where thebest pieces of innovation and
learning come from.
When you start to look back atelements, pivotal places almost
in the career, where it's like,oh my goodness, do not know what
(11:09):
is happening at this point, butactually the deepest level of
learning is coming from thatchange, that innovation, even
though it may not feel it out atthe time, which leads us really
nicely into us talking aboutthe change that has happened
over the last decade and wherewe see the future headed.
It's something I'm so curiousto ask you about because
(11:31):
obviously, the world ofdiversity and inclusion, ind,
dni, diversity and Inclusion,belonging equity culture, or
Dibeck as we call it has beensuch an evolving cycle and, on
this backdrop of what ishappening, with geopolitical
issues and almost quitepolarizing narratives at time,
(11:52):
how do you see this playing outin the role and you know where
do you feel we've come from andwhere do you think we're headed?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, it's a really interesting question, nolan.
I guess I can break it downinto a few parts, but I think
there's something about theevolution of the skills.
I think when IND first became athing, it started to become
something ahead of IND.
(12:23):
Well, it started to becomereally popular about five years.
Four or five years ago, a lotof companies were starting to
see that there was a businessrisk here, potentially, so there
was a need to start looking atit from a commercial business
perspective.
Then we were recruiting headsof IND.
Now, what I don't think we'veactually done with heads of IND
(12:45):
yet is really establish what theskill set is that is required
to enable change in a businessand to enable businesses to
start to think about IND in anot just the commercial way, but
in a way that supportsinnovation, in a way that
supports growth, in a way thatsupports different thinking.
(13:07):
I don't know if you've read it,but there was a Forbes article
that was printed and Forbes hadstudied and asked us.
It was a Clover Popdecision-making database and
they'd studied 600 businessdecisions made in 200 different
businesses.
What they found was that,compared to individual decision
(13:28):
makers, all male teams madebetter decisions 58% of the time
.
So it's better to have morepeople involved in decisions.
That's a good thing, ratherthan making them on your own.
If you have gender diverseteams, that increased to 73% and
then if you had a wide range ofages and different geographical
locations, then that team madebetter decisions 87% of the time
(13:50):
.
I think it's definitely evolved, in terms of thinking about the
long-term impact of focusing oninvestment and inclusion, from
something that was about peopleand helping people to feel that
they belonged.
I think there is still a focuson that and I think that is a
very important aspect of thework that the DNI professionals
(14:13):
do that importance of communitybuilding, that importance of
people feeling protected, one ofthe most vulnerable, and that
is really important.
That's strengthened by theprocesses in an organisation, by
the capacity that you have tohave really inclusive workforces
.
I think it's moving now towardsbeing able to articulate what
(14:33):
those outcomes are that you'retrying to achieve.
The point that you made aboutgeopolitical landscape how are
businesses responding to that?
How are they becoming resilientto risk?
Because those geopoliticalissues are really increasing and
that polarisation of views inbusinesses is something that
it's the tension, that conflict,that tension.
(14:55):
How do you hold those two?
How do you recognise that is arisk to a business and how do
you hold those two in highregard in the same organisation?
The danger is, if you've gottwo opposing views I'll take the
example of Garza at the moment,if you protect one side more
(15:16):
than the other, then it could beseen as a portrayal.
And also you've got theequality act increasingly
looking at who it's choosing toprotect and why.
So when you're going to haveopposing, conflicting views,
both being protected by theequality act gender critical
beliefs and transgender beliefsyou're going to have that in a
(15:37):
business as well.
So how do you get your businessresilient to that risk?
And then you're looking at okay,so if that's an outcome, if
that's an outcome that I'mlooking to achieve, what are the
inputs and the activities thatI need to get there?
And also, I think there's thisview that, as I indeed
professional, it's understandinglike what psychological safety
(15:58):
is, what are the components ofthat from a cultural perspective
?
How do you create that safety tospeak up and also increase that
emotional connection to yourbrand and to your business?
Because actually it does createbetter business decisions, it
does create wealth creation, itdoes get better client
engagement, but it's trying tomake that link, I think, which
(16:18):
is where, as the IND Agendamatures, is where I think we
need to be heading as aprofession.
And then I think the other thingto think about is what skills
are required in an INDprofessional to do that and to
enable that healthy conflict.
So, moving away from thinkingI'm right, you're wrong, I've
(16:40):
won, you've lost, to thinkingabout what's the deeper truth
that we're trying to get to andtrying to unravel that so that
it's removing those barriers andgetting to that deeper truth,
or it's creating innovationthrough new possibilities that
you've got to opposing viewssomewhere in.
That is a new way of takingthat forward to a new
(17:00):
possibility.
So it's encouraging andincreasing innovation.
And it's this point arounddiscomfort I talked about
previously that it's only indiscomfort that you can get
growth.
You can't get growth in comfort.
So it's almost encouraging thatconversation to enable that
growth to happen.
(17:21):
And I think that really goodIND professionals have this real
opportunity to be at the heartof that and start connecting
that with the real businessimperative around the importance
of innovation, the importanceof growth.
How do you get people into thatmindset?
You can get them into thatmindset through their ability to
have healthy conflict withdifference.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh, my goodness, so much of what you've said there.
I was holding myself back fromtrying to interrupt because
there's so much that you'vecovered and it's interesting
that you talk about discomfortis the place that we get growth.
I completely agree.
Additionally, I've mulled a lotrecently on how world trends or
(18:10):
world issues have affected theprofession and obviously, on the
one hand, when you look atthings like Israel, gaza, it is
so divided.
Chief execs are worrying abouthow they try and support both
sides.
It feels very divided andalmost harder to a certain
(18:30):
extent.
When we hear the brutal mergerof George Floyd and we hear
about Ukraine and Russia, italmost feels an easier place to
say right versus wrong.
And obviously we saw a hugeuptick in organizations
recruiting for diversityprofessionals.
(18:51):
On the one hand, I think thisis wonderful because this is
exactly what we need, butequally, you worry that some of
this could have beenperformative, because actually
there's such a it feels like alot of the industry is a little
at the mercy of some of theworld issues.
Again, no, just a reflectionthat, but I mean I'd love to
(19:12):
know what your thoughts are,because it is being a
rollercoaster, hasn't it overthe last couple of years?
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And I think it's not helped by the polarization of
sensation like headlines.
I think it's definitely seen anincrease in it since COVID.
Whether COVID's had an impacton that I don't know, but I
definitely think there's been ashift in the way that social
(19:39):
media is utilized to create newsabout things and actually we
run a bullying and harassmentwebinar and part of that is
actually saying to people wouldyou state the same things to
somebody's faith that you see onsocial media and would you do
that and it's a very powerfultechnique because it is a form
(20:01):
of bullying and harassment, butit's also a form of expressing
your viewpoints and your viewsare valid and your views are
equally as valid as my views.
They might be different and Ithink it's a very delicate
balance that you're treadingbetween what support you give
(20:25):
and how you give that in anequal way versus your own
personal beliefs.
So I might have very strongbeliefs that I might believe in
one side more than the other ifwe're talking about side team
winning and losing, but actuallymy role is not to bring that
(20:47):
into it.
My role is to understand thedifferent truths and work out
common ground to enable thingsto move forward.
So I do think it's reallycomplex and I think there's
geopolitical issue are we don'tknow what's gonna hit us next
and in the future, but one thingthat can guarantee is there
(21:07):
will be more, so they are notgoing away, and it's how we
choose to respond to that andhow we build a skill and the
resilience in our individuals toenable us to respond to that in
a positive and constructive way.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
It's fascinating because when you see to your
point some of these concerningheadlines at least, I think to
myself oh my goodness, words,they hold such an immense
influence.
They've got this power to uniteor divide, and power or
marginalize.
All of these different thingsshape perceptions of what is a
(21:52):
deeply rooted, very, verycomplex subject.
And when you said that the roleof the IND exec is not to
necessarily get personal viewsinvolved but actually to pull
that back into tangible actions,responses that are going to
(22:14):
drive better business outcomes,it really makes such a lot of
sense.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, I think it's moving it away and I think this
is where we've been with IMGthat it has been about people
and that is really importantaspect of our agenda that it is
about people, it is aboutbelonging, it's about supporting
the most marginalized and themost vulnerable.
It is also a really, reallyimportant business driver that.
(22:47):
I think there's a little bit.
The danger with thepolarization of views on all of
the social media is you start tolose that along the way and
actually it is a commercialdriver for any business to be
able to really deal with some ofthis and to have the stretch
and the skill and then theirbusiness to actually support it.
And I think if you can do that,then you're much more able to
(23:10):
create a more sustainable andresilient business model and you
do get better innovation andyou get better ideas.
So I do think there are twothings of idea.
I think it's the people aspectand it's the belonging, and it
is the diversity, and it's thetargets and everything else.
And there's also a much biggerpoint around how does this link
to where we're going as abusiness?
(23:30):
How is this going to help us tobe successful in what we're
trying to do and therefore, howdoes that have an impact on the
broader society as well?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
When I've seen some of these headlines recently and
presenting at variousconferences, I said don't just
believe these headlines, becausepeople can lie but the data
doesn't.
And so it's how you transcendthis power of importance when it
comes to storytelling, but,equally, driving the longer term
sustainable growthopportunities through commercial
(24:05):
output.
And again, reflecting on ourconversation, and something that
I've seen over the last five,ten years, is that diversity was
seen as this nice to have,still a lovely, fluffy kind of
thing, and I think it's, in oneway, the very worst situation
because the second we start tosee it as something which is
(24:28):
fluffy and a nice to have, eventhough most people know it is a
moral imperative, it starts toshift away from the importance
of this as a diversity being acommercial leave of economic
growth and prosperity, which iseverything that you are saying
here is.
Words have got these andstories have got a brilliant
(24:49):
power to be able to influenceproactively but equally, data,
statistics, numbers to drivebetter business outcomes, with
the examples you gave there fromForbes, you know we've been
hearing for the last 10, 20years and seeing in the research
that this does drive betterengagement, therefore
(25:09):
profitability to hit the bottomline, which is, you know, in a
climate that we're in aneconomic uncertainty, I really
believe that it is the answerand solution to unlock better
outcomes.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And it's and isn't it .
It's the right thing to do andit's the right thing to provide
that environment to people,because we know and I apologize,
I know that you can onlyperform at your best when you
feel psychologically safe.
Otherwise, new ideas, innovation, ability to think in a
different way, the auto shutsdown, your defence mechanisms
(25:45):
come into your brain, everythingshuts down.
You're not in a position.
If you're really stressed andyou're feeling unsafe and you're
feeling devalued, all of thatshuts down.
So that that is so that peopleaspect is really, really
important, because to get thebest out of people and to get
the best idea, there is abusiness connection.
It's how you then use thelanguage to commercialise it.
(26:08):
It feels connected and I thinkthere is a danger and I do think
that it's important that wehave lots of networks and we
have lots of you know, safespace for people to talk.
We do have events and things,but there is a little bit of a
danger that we've moved moreinto that and I think it just
needs to be rebalanced back towhy we're doing this and why
(26:28):
it's important.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
The piece around risk as well I was just reflecting
again on the conversation is theimpact of inaction far
outweighs the risk that I thinkorganisations see in spending or
investing more in this, whichis kind of crazy because you
(26:56):
think, well, given what we'reseeing in the press, if we do
not lean into this and continueto invest in it right now,
actually the amount that couldalso cost businesses in the long
term is astronomical.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, and I think there's the most, I would say.
A lot of businesses are tunedinto that.
Now they understand thatthere's a big risk element to it
and there's also a potentialgrowth element to it as well.
So there is both.
So I think that that has beenrecognised.
(27:32):
It's more a question of wheredoes it go next and its maturity
, and I think all businesses areat different points, aren't
they in the maturity of theiragenda?
And I also think that the datapoint that you mentioned is
really important, because thathelps businesses to understand
where some of their challengesreally are.
(27:53):
And I think the other pointthat's really important is
really understanding from yourdiverse populations what the
barriers are that exist withinyour own organisation and what
you can do to really act on thatand to put those things right
to make a difference.
And I think there's.
You know there has to be anincentive or a motivation to
(28:19):
make those changes happen beforeyou ask people on the problem,
because otherwise you raiseexpectations and if nothing
changes, it can create apathyand disappointment.
So that's why I think it'scomplicated, because you want to
know what the problems are, butthe solutions are quite
sometimes very complex and hardto put into play and, as you say
(28:41):
you know there's no one cookiecutter model size fits all,
which I think you know.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
I hear this a lot.
It's just give us a solution.
Give us a solution.
There is no one cookie cuttermodel size fits all, because
every different business has adifferent culture.
There's different expectations.
The stakeholder groups you knowyour employee resource groups,
your diverse and inclusionprofessionals, each of our
leaders, increasingly, you knowinvestors and others on the
board.
(29:06):
You know it is.
You know it's mild wide andit's mild easy.
It's mild wide and it's milddeep, isn't it?
And so diagnosing thosespecific areas with then
specific, tangible actions, iskey for us to continue evolving
within each and every one.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And it's also about focus, because you could do you
could do 100 things in a weekand sometimes it feels like
throwing a little water scenesticks and actually if you have
the data and you have the focusgroups, you're able to focus
your attention.
And we've only got limitedreasons and limited time and
(29:44):
business leaders have gotlimited resources and limited
time.
So it's one of the two or threethings that will be really
impactful to take it forward.
And at Grand Fault and we'vebeen we spent quite a long time
building a sponsorship programlast year which was asking our
you know, really experiencedpartners and directors and
leaders to sponsor diversetalent.
(30:05):
So that is a program thatrequires investment, time and
resource, but actually all ofour leaders have responded very
well to that and structured, andit's a program that's in place
and we'll measure it tounderstand the impact on the
tension, and so that was onething that we did.
(30:27):
But the ripple effects of thatare lots of time, lots of
attention and lots of investmentin the problem of progressing
diverse talent in our business.
So I think once you'veidentified the real issue, then
we can start to put thesolutions in place that we need
to put in place.
Yeah, hard work.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Hard work, but also unwavering optimism as well,
because I think you knoweverything goes through these
cyclical cycles.
Naturally, you know when youhave brilliant individuals like
yourself and other directors whoare willing to sponsor programs
to make a difference.
Actually, sometimes patience isa virtue because we know the
great things innovation,profitability will come out of
(31:13):
all of that work.
Before we run out of time, jen,I'd love to ask a couple of
little lightning round questions, because I could spend actually
all afternoon podcasting, Ithink, couldn't we quite?
I'm going to give you 30seconds or thereabouts.
Don't be too strict on the lastcouple of questions that I'll
(31:35):
ask.
I'm going to start with hardestone first is what would you say
has been your secret to success, or is that one, I think?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I think it's like the ability to bounce back.
So I have pretty good bounceability and for things can get
down you know they do I do havean wavering optimism and I do
think that sees me through.
So I guess you might call itresilience, you might call it
bounce ability.
I think that that's the thingit's not being too disheartened
(32:05):
by your failures or yourmistakes or your wrong turns or
your disappointment, and pickingyourself back up quickly and
putting yourself on a differenttrack.
I think that's probably beenthe biggest thing that has
helped me to be successful.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Any hero she rose, anyone that's made a mark
difference to you.
I'm sure there's many.
Give me one or two.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, there's a number that tend to be
influenced by famous people, butby by people that I know and
who I care about and who have aninfluence on my life.
So, given my childhood, I tendto take quite a long time to
trust somebody.
That when I trust them, I'lltend to go to them for mentoring
(32:56):
and relationships.
And I still, actually, in my BAsystems day, I had a boss there
who who is still my mentor nowand I will speak to so that 20
year relationship.
So I would probably say they'remy heroes, the people that I
feel I can really trust, thatwill have my best interests at
heart, who I can go and talk toabout these things.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I love that real models we often call the that
are real models over role modelssometimes and people who have
had the belief.
I think it makes such a huge,huge difference.
And finally, if you give youryounger self any advice, is
there anything that you mightmight say?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yeah, I would say be less hard on yourself and
believe, just trust yourself abit more.
I think I have a really goodinstinct, but when I in my
younger self, I didn'tnecessarily trust this instinct.
(34:07):
So I think it's yeah, I thinkit's probably trust my instinct.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Jen, thank you so much.
It has been a fabulous podcastand I feel there's been so many
learnings from this session.
I'm thinking about where tostart but, for those that are
listening, really consideringthe greater business impact,
thinking about the fact that wemust be resilient during times
(34:36):
of change and also beconsidering the longer term
impact of the actions that weare taking.
Particularly enjoyed the piecearound innovation and almost
this pain point of when we feelthat it is hard really leaning
into that discomfort in order tothen reap some of the benefits
(34:59):
that come out of the other side,and also the and, given the
cultural dynamics that we'reseeing geopolitical aspects out
in the world at the moment, Ilove the talk around healthy,
healthy conflict.
There isn't always a right or awrong answer.
(35:21):
Sometimes it's actually okay tobe within the grain.
So when you come back to thecommercial business perspective
and the fact that actually weknow that the numbers are
telling us the truth and that isthat this drives better
decision making, drives bettereconomic opportunity and outputs
(35:42):
for all, because we all knowthat that sense of belonging and
engagement is why we remainwhere we are within our
organisations, and so that wassomething that was a really
interesting reflection pointthere as well.
So, jen, thank you ever so much.
It's been really fun.
(36:04):
My name is Layla McKenzie,dallas, founder and CEO of
Darglobal.
You've been listening to thediverse inclusive leaders
podcast show with the brilliantJen Barnett of Brant Thornton.
You can check out all of ourshow notes online.
You can visit us on our on yourfavourite podcast out there
Apple, spotify, whichever oneyou choose or directly at
(36:24):
wwwdarglobalorg forward slashpodcast, and we'll look forward
to seeing you again very soon.
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