March 14, 2024 • 40 mins
As a parent, witnessing your child encounter barriers can ignite a passion for change that resonates far beyond the confines of home. That's precisely what happened to Nathan Coe, CEO of AutoTrader, when he saw his daughters confront gender biases. On our show, Nathan walks us through his awakening to the realities of diversity and inclusion, illustrating how these revelations have transformed AutoTrader into a beacon of equality, offering lessons that extend to us all about the essence of leadership in today's ever-evolving workplace.
With roots firmly planted in the working class, Nathan's journey to the helm of AutoTrader is a narrative of ambition, defying societal expectations, and the relentless pursuit of a culture steeped in positivity and social mobility. In our intimate conversation, he peels back the layers of traditional CEO roles, advocating for a leadership style that prizes trust and personal connection over top-down commands. This approach, he argues, is not only more aligned with today's societal needs but also carves a path for a new era of empowered, engaged teams and leaders who truly listen.
The synergy between diversity and commercial success is a tune Nathan knows by heart. AutoTrader stands as a testament to the potent blend of CEO activism with business strategy, demonstrating the genuine integration of diversity into the DNA of a company's objectives. This episode peels back the curtain on how diversity and inclusion are much more than just buzzwords but rather, the driving force behind a thriving, forward-thinking enterprise. Nathan's insights challenge us to consider how embedding these values into our businesses is not just a moral imperative but a strategic edge in a landscape that demands balance, innovation, and a deep respect for every individual's contribution.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the CEO Activist podcast.
This is a show where I have theopportunity to meet with some
of the world's mostinspirational leaders of today.
We're going to be talking aboutwhy diversity is a commercial
lever for economic growth andprosperity, why putting the S in
ESG is so tremendouslyimportant.
(00:21):
I'm joined today by Nathan Coe,who is the CEO of AutoTrader.
He's going to be talking usthrough his journey up to the
top, from Sydney to the UK tonow being at the helm of one of
the UK's most well-knownorganisations.
Nathan, it is a pleasure to seeyou.
(00:47):
I know that I have had theopportunity to meet with you now
a number of times, but each andevery time you have struck me
as a true CEO activist, and soI'd love you to share a little
bit about how you came to bewhere you are today and what CEO
activism means to you.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Cool.
Well, thank you for having me,layla.
I think it's quite a long storyactually as to how the way that
I feel about diversity,inclusion, belonging has evolved
.
And I'd say, probably like lotsof people actually, I grew up
in very much a majority inAustralia white, six foot,
blonde hair, typical kind ofAustralian person, very
(01:29):
confident, never any reason toreally question myself, and so
you kind of assumed everyoneelse had exactly the same
experience of life.
You never, would neverconsciously say that because it
would be ridiculous, you know,but we don't really ask these
ourselves, these questions, whenwe're interacting with people
as well.
Perhaps their experience iscompletely different from mine
(01:49):
and that means that they show updifferently.
So, you know, I would say Iprobably grew up, you know, as
ignorant, as the average personperhaps, or certainly average
person that comes from mybackground, just assuming that
you know.
This is what the world lookslike to everyone, and I think
for me where it really startedwas having young girls.
(02:10):
I've now got one that's aged 11, one that's aged 15.
But when they were very, veryyoung, I noticed in their school
life I saw little signs ofthings happening where actually
they were having a very, verydifferent experience to me and
very small things, like mydaughter loves playing football.
So she went to go and play onthe football field, bought a
(02:34):
football for her and hergirlfriend's but was told
quickly that no, we're onlyallowed one football on the
playing field.
So and the boys had thefootball and the boys didn't
want to play with the girls.
So that meant effectively, thatrule meant that girls couldn't
play football at lunch times.
And I know that sounds verysmall and trivial, but then you
look at, you know things likevoting for class representatives
(02:57):
and those sorts of things inclasses where the majority of
the class are boys and it tendedto be all the class reps were
boys and I started seeing thesepatterns where I was like, hang
on, this just doesn't feel meritbased or fair in any sense of
the word.
Why are people not seeing this?
Why are people not doingsomething about it?
(03:17):
So it was really that personalexperience that really started
to you know, I'm ashamed to sayin a sense started to really get
me to start paying attention to.
Well, hang on, maybe the waythat people are showing up or,
of course, the way people areshowing up is massively driven
by their experience, andactually all of us have very,
very different experiences andwe need to take that into
(03:37):
account, particularly if we'rejudging merit, you know, because
something as simple asextraversion or introversion
could be massively impacted byyou know, if you've spent your
life being told no, you can'tplay football, no, you can't do
this, girls do this, or peoplefrom this race are like this, or
all those sorts of assumptionsthat can be plonked on people
that tend to be wrong and get inthe way of working out people
(03:59):
that might actually, in my case,from a work sense although this
is as big for me from apersonal sense people that might
be great for your organisation.
And then I think it was aboutactually on my journey.
It then kind of just cascadedinto more and more aspects of
humans that can be different.
So there was the Black LivesMatter campaign that kind of
(04:23):
kicked off and that led me tolead, get much more build my
understanding of ethnicity andrace and how that shows up and
how people are impacted by andwhat's the history of it in this
country, what's the history ofit in my own country, and I
would just say that for me, thiswhole question of the way
people show up and how that'simpacted by where they've come
(04:44):
from is just a massive area ofcuriosity and I think, as we've
unlocked that at Auto Trader andI wouldn't put it down to me
I've learnt as much from myorganisation as I've contributed
to it.
We've found actually there areloads and loads of people that
are really, really amazing andwanting to do a really, really
amazing job.
And if you kind of take intoaccount those differences
(05:05):
between us and work towardsbuilding a unified community
around those differences, thenactually your organisation
whether it's hiring, whetherit's performance, whether it's
promotion, all those things youjust get a lot more choices than
other organisations have,because you're providing a stage
for people to be able toperform and not be impacted by
(05:26):
many of those things that mighthave held them back at different
stages of their life.
So it's quite a long answer,but it's been a long journey and
it's kind of gone on from there.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's a fantastic answer, though, and I think, how
you describe this, it's almostbeen an evolutionary journey of
learning through all of thesedifferent intersections of
diversity and what that means.
You know your own culturalbackground, obviously coming
from Australia, the differentnuances coming here over to the
UK and then obviously now beingin the position of CEO, where
(05:58):
actually there is a real need tobe paying attention to not just
the growing pool ofstakeholders needs, but also
investors needs, community needs, customer needs, employee needs
.
You know the list is almostendless.
I would love just to take it alittle bit back to when you were
(06:20):
in Australia and your careerjourney.
Did you always have in yourmind's eye that you wanted to be
a CEO?
Because obviously you went fromCFO to COO into the CEO role.
Was that something you aspiredto from the early days?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Kind of yes and no actually, and I would say I
probably had more convictionabout it earlier in my life,
when we're at university and weknow everything about everything
, and you think you know I'dlove to be a great chief
executive but and I was likethat, I wanted to do business,
and I'll explain a little bitwhy that was.
I think there are really tworeasons behind it.
I do have a bit of a chip on myshoulder and it's nothing to do
(07:01):
with being Australian at all.
I came from a family where youknow working class.
My dad was a draftsman, my mumwas a nurse.
No one in my family had everbeen to university.
So there was a side to me thatand I don't really know who I
was shaking my fist at but Iused to listen a lot to bands
like Rage Against the Machine.
So I am a bit of anon-conformist, I guess is
(07:23):
probably the polite term for it.
So there was a side to me thatwanted to just say you know what
I'm going to do it?
I'm going to be the first oneto go to university, be the
first one to, you know, maybeearn more than the average wage
in my family, because no one haddone that.
So there's a side to me thatjust is drawn to disproving
(07:43):
people, even though there's noone I can point to.
That was well, I probably canpoint to a few people in my past
from school that you know weredefinitely non-believers in
Nathan that you know.
Hopefully, my life has become akind of a.
Well, there you go.
See, I did do it.
So there was partly that.
Interestingly, I would say thatover time I didn't and I don't
(08:06):
think it's healthy tonecessarily say at that age I
just want to become a CEObecause you think well, in
theory, well, everyone justwants to, should just want to
become a CEO because that's theTop of some business tree.
I think, as time went on, Iwould say I pursued that a lot,
lot less and a lot lessintentionally, and that actually
happened pretty early, once Istarted working.
(08:27):
I did want to do well, I didwant to disprove people, but I
realized that you know, youcan't.
Not everyone can be the CEO.
So what I focused on is justworking harder than the next
person, learning more than thenext person and retaining more,
more knowledge than the nextperson.
So and then I'd say, over timeit just became more natural that
(08:48):
, as I did those things, I loveleading people, I like people, I
like trying to make differentthings happening happen, I like
thinking about culture and a lotof those things you can only
really impact, you know, big wayas a chief executive.
So that almost became a meansto an end.
Actually, I wanted to make adifference.
I wanted to do something thatmattered.
I wanted to try to create anorganization where people,
(09:11):
people felt hugely engaged.
It was people orientated but atthe same time really performed
well and that kind of bucket ofthings you can only really do as
CEO.
So it did change a lot,initially the goal, but then
actually it just became themeans to the means to an end in
the end.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
It resonates such a lot andit's fascinating the amount of
CEOs that I speak to who havethat sense of vulnerability and
that sense of I've got to provesomething here which ultimately,
as you describe is, that is anincredible story of upward
social mobility, another facetof of diversity, which is
(09:49):
incredibly important.
It's something that sits belowthe surface as well.
You know, I have a great issuewith the, the terminology male,
pale and stale, and it can oftenyeah, you know you know it gets
a little chuckle, but at thesame time, diversity is so much
more than what meets the eye andit is yeah, no, it goes below
(10:10):
and the surface level.
Social mobility is absolutelyat the core of driving better
economies and driving betterbusiness for good for all.
And and I mean it makes methink actually of the, the
modern CEO, which, of course,you are a very modern CEO, ford,
thinking innovative.
(10:30):
But what do modern CEOs need tobe considering when it comes to
, you know, staying abreast ofthe curve, because I think you
know the great thing aboutyourself and others that I've
had that the fortunateopportunity of interviewing is.
You know these days of the kindof the, the hierarchical kind
of why ivory tower office isover now.
(10:53):
Yeah you know there's so muchmore of an expectation of
leaders to be, at times,vulnerable and to share.
You know where they have comefrom and the why and the purpose
behind what it is that they aredoing.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a massive question and
there in lives the the mysteryof what it takes to be a great
CEO, and I certainly wouldn'tpretend to be able to have the
list of you know.
These are all the things thatyou've got to do.
Well, I think there is.
You know, there are lists, andI read a lot and I study a lot
and obviously think about myrole a lot.
I think it does change indifferent circumstances, but I
think there are someFundamentals in terms of staying
(11:28):
abreast.
I think one of the biggestthings for me is that If you
think about leadership and maybetake politics as the most
extreme example of this, at theend of the day, many people do
get a job, a CEO job, and theycan kind of impose their will on
the Organization and tellpeople what to do, and that's
not really going to be a veryengaging place.
(11:48):
So my view of leadership isactually and almost the the
success of your leadership willbe down to well, how strongly do
your people trust you?
Do they vote for you, as theyhave to in in politics, you know
?
Do they trust your decisions?
Do they trust that you've gottheir interests in mind?
Do they trust you enough thatthey'll put in.
(12:09):
You know they'll be vulnerable.
They'll put their best effortin, they'll be fully engaged.
They'll make sure that theytake on, you know, those small
decisions that happen allthroughout an organization.
They'll make that rightdecision and they'll take that
risk.
So I think at the end of theday, for me one of the most
fundamental elements is, as aleader, do your people trust you
and the extent to which that'strue?
(12:30):
I think people will follow you.
You know a very, very, a very,very long way, but at the same
time you've got to give themgood reason to to follow you.
So it's not like you can kindof be the pied pipe or you've
got their trust.
Now let's go and do this thingover there.
I think the actions also Feedinto feeding to trust.
And the other thing I think Iwould say that you know You've
(12:52):
seen catch out a lot ofbusinesses and CEOs is the Moral
imperatives around.
Business are just really reallyhigh actually, and you are even
though we're not politicians atall, we are big public leaders.
In the case of auto trailer,it's a public company.
You are expected to be rolemodels and you're expected to
run your businesses in a waythat is net positive to society,
(13:15):
just making more money thisyear over last, you know, the
ask is so much, so much biggerthan that now and I think,
interestingly, some people say,well, that sounds like that's
all the lords businesses shouldbe about.
Making money.
That's kind of the invisiblehand of capitalism and I don't
think the two things are at oddswith each other and I think
(13:36):
that sits around a lot of thework that you do, that actually
really really good business Willresult in really really good
results.
It can't necessarily, I think,if you are pursuing profit at
the expense of you know, whetherit's employing engagement or
making sure that you've got adiverse group of people,
tackling problems actually willonly be true for a certain
(13:59):
amount of time.
And we've seen, you know, whenthese things like culture, like
Engagement, like diversity andinclusion, when these things are
neglected over very, very longperiods of time, you tend to see
culture suffers, and that'swhen bad things are.
Bad things happen withbusinesses.
I really do believe that to betrue and, of course, I believe
the opposite of it to be true aswell, which, if you really
(14:22):
really invest in very, very goodfoundations and over time, the
business will perform very, verywell.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You've picked up on some really valuable points and
what I'm hearing is that the twoare not mutually exclusive.
No, diversity, inclusion,belonging, equity, culture it's
a living, it's a breathing, it'sa sleeping thing, as you've
articulated, they're perfectlyand ultimately, diversity as
this commercial lever foreconomic growth and prosperity
(14:49):
is something that marries uptogether.
Doing well through fosteringtrust of the people within the
organizations and thestakeholders that are involved,
but then also making sure thisis not performative.
You know this is about not onlythe words but, as you have and
auto trader has, is puttingactions Behind those words and
(15:13):
those imperatives.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, and I think,
from my perspective, the wordsdon't change anything actually.
So if you are doing words, Isuspect what you're probably
doing is creating a rod for yourown back and then getting none
of the benefit of it.
So so which I don't see muchpoint to it at all, and I do
think the two things do go handin hand, and for me it's
(15:34):
relatively simple.
Actually, auto trader operatespredominantly in Manchester and
London.
You know, those communities arevery, very, very diverse.
If we want the best people,then we need to create an
environment where as many peopleas possible will be attracted
to AutoTrader and feel like it'sa place where they can do their
(15:55):
best work, and if we do thatreally, really well, then we
will probably attract peoplefrom within communities that
will otherwise not feel safe atother organizations or not even
feel really interested in it.
I'd say the number one reasonwhy people say they join
AutoTrader is its culture.
Now, I think over time theyalso like the work that we do.
They like the technology aspectto the business.
(16:16):
You know, those things are allgood, but the reason why they
join is predominant of culture,because that is the dominant
aspect of an employeesexperience.
So I think if you do get thatright, then, as I mentioned
earlier, and I think we see thisyou find it easier to hire
people than other organizationswill be able to do.
People do better work, so youend up getting people promoted
(16:39):
and developing throughout theorganization and you retain more
people as well.
And recruiting and losing people.
They are very, very expensivebusiness decisions.
So actually if you can do thatquite well and we don't do it
because of the economics, wehaven't written a business case
around it, we just think it'sthe right thing to do and, like
lots of things, we think if wedo the right thing then it will
show up in the results.
(17:00):
But if you start to unpick it,actually I would say making sure
all of our communities, even ifit's from a national level, but
even within business make sureall communities feel like this
is a place where they can dowell and there's opportunities
for them that they can aspire toand there's support there to
help them develop into thoseopportunities.
And that has to be veryobviously good for economic
(17:22):
growth, because more of thecommunity, more of the
population, whatever, are ableto be productive and get into
roles where they can kind of dotheir very finest work because
otherwise they just wouldn't bedoing it.
So for me it's almostmathematical QED.
We get more people involveddoing their very finest work,
that means more good stuffcoming out of the UK or more
(17:43):
good stuff coming out of autotrader and everyone's happy.
But I'll admit there is a hintof idealism to that which is,
and the reality is gritty andhard to make.
That happen is no, it's mucheasier said than done.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
But I think there's always a hint of idealism and we
must be positively optimisticwhen we see everything happening
in the world, with kind ofgeopolitical challenges, lots
and lots of I think it's 70elections which are happening
around the globe.
Trying to find that stabilityin a storm and maintaining
(18:19):
optimism for the people withinyour organizations is so, so,
very important.
And it really touches me thatyou talk about the you know this
not just being a return oninvestment.
You know, for many leaders andcertainly us in the diversity,
inclusion, belonging space, youknow we're hearing oh, what's
the return on investment?
What's the return on investment?
(18:40):
And what you've described thereis actually.
What's the impact of inactionif we are not to be driving
things forward?
There is unwavering, unwaveringdata and research that shows
there is a business case for allof these things, from diverse
suppliers right the way throughdiversity within marketing,
(19:02):
representing all.
But there are still the odd oneor two leaders, you know, like
the Elon Musk's of the world,who, when I read headlines like
DEI must die, it made me want todie inside and I thought, oh my
God.
You know we really now, evenmore than ever, we must have
(19:22):
great leaders like yourself andothers who are standing up and
being even more vocal about whythis is so important to future
generations of leaders in theworkplace and you know, your
daughter's, my 19 month old baby, and so on and so forth because
there's so much caring therefor this to be important.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah well, and I think you know I can understand
that's definitely how you'd feelwhen you hear something like
that.
And I think there's a real.
There's a real conflictactually, and it comes back to
something you said earlier, Ithink when these you know a lot
of this has been imposed inregulation or in corporate
governance codes and then got areport against this and report
(20:03):
that, and I think if you doapproach that, you know, get the
words right, it's another boxto tick.
The problem is, I can see thatit's.
I can see why some people mightsay, well, this is just onerous
and it's, it's for no good.
And I think the point I make isthat, actually, if you pursue
the substance of the thing,which, at the end of the day, is
a belief that you want toensure that you provide an
(20:25):
environment where anyone of anybackground can do their very
finest work, and you want toensure that, within your
organization, when you'retalking about stuff, products,
to launch marketing campaigns,whatever it might be, that you
have a diverse group of peoplearound the table, and that means
diversity in the, you know thebiggest sense of the word.
You want diverse views beingthrown into something, have a
(20:49):
big kind of argument and debateand you'll emerge the other side
with a better point of view.
I find it very difficult tobelieve that actually having
everyone that's exactly the samegetting in a room and making a
decision is going to be betterthan having a diverse group of
people having that very samedebate and coming up with a
conclusion.
So I think the problem is if itfeels like a box ticking
(21:12):
exercise.
If it's treated as a boxticking exercise, it is onerous,
it is difficult and that's, youknow, might be why you get, you
know, people expressingskepticism.
I think if you take it at theheart of it, as a, you know, a
fundamental kind of moralimperative, then actually the
benefits I mean AutoTrade willbe a very, very different
company if we hadn't pursuedthese things.
And I could say in all cases,you know we get hit by the
(21:35):
onerous obligations and we'vegot to.
You know there are elements toour reporting that we've got to
do.
You know lots and lots ofdifferent things that we might
not otherwise do, but actually,because we're taking the
principle of it kind of very,very seriously, the fact that
we've got to report a couple ofthings, actually, if anything,
we tend to under-report on thestuff that we do, because we're
not doing it for reporting froma reporting perspective.
(21:58):
But if you do a, pursue theheart of these things and you
really focus on you know cradleto grave within your career at
AutoTrade, if we can get thesethings right, we're bringing
diverse groups of people andproviding them with an
opportunity to excel, and thenwe end up with, you know, truly
diverse leadership teams makingthe making decisions that really
really matter to the company.
(22:18):
Then you just will be betteroff.
As I said, to me it's kind ofquite a common sense thing but
it is not about.
You know it requires, you knowit is probably less work to do
the box ticking but it is justonerous and there is no real
return on it.
But if you put in the hardyards, actually, you know, the
return is kind of there and, Ithink, reasonably easy to bet on
(22:41):
.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And what we're seeing is this really well, I say some
makeshift, but for the lastdecade we've seen the EB kind of
the shining, shining light ofESG.
Analysts are saying that the Swill be what the E is being over
the last decade and when weanalyzed a lot of the different
reporting standards and thingslike this diversity and
(23:03):
inclusion, belonging equityculture in one guys or another,
dei, ind.
I know there's many differentdifferent anagrams for this fell
into that S, and that'ssomething that you're doing
fantastically well at AutoTrade,because, ultimately, this
stakeholder group of investorswho is investing in
organizations that are purposedriven is growing, which,
(23:24):
seemingly, we're kind of we'regoing through the eye of the
storm right now and will comeout the other end, especially
knowing that frameworks like thewealth economy, which measures
things that you have mentionedbeyond just wealth as GDP or USD
, we're looking at human capital, knowledge capital, social
capital, people capital, whichis everything you stand for.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe S and the importance of that
(23:47):
and some of the examples thatyou are doing so brilliantly
well at AutoTrade.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Well, I'd start by saying I don't think we're
perfect, but we're trying veryhard.
I think it is interesting.
I think it is.
There are good reasons tobelieve that what you say is
true.
It's interesting that the newUK Corporate Governance Code has
just been released for 2024 andit does call out specifically
(24:12):
boards needing to pay attentionto the diversity and inclusion
within their organization.
So I definitely think it is.
You know, it is moving that way,and ESG for many, many years
felt like it was very, very Eand a bit of G heavy and the S
was kind of lost in there.
So I think there is, and Ithink there's very good reason
(24:34):
for that, because when you dolook at things like the code or
you look at why they get tothese now they end up being a
code that you need to complywith or explain why you're not
complying with it.
So it can be, well, this is abox, we've got a tick, but if
you look at the language thatthey use around supporting it,
it's actually you know, anybusiness person would kind of
say these things that you know agood culture.
(24:55):
You know an organization needsto ensure that its purpose, its
strategy and its culture are allaligned and that it's taking
into account the diverse viewsof all stakeholders.
And the way that you do that isthrough diverse teams.
So the way that they talk aboutit is very, very common sense.
And I think very often you knowthe DE and I stuff is pulled
out, or the S is pulled out veryspecifically.
But the reality is why it'simportant, why it works, why
(25:20):
there is a return on it, is ifyou don't get all those bits
aligned in an organization, fromyour purpose to your strategy,
to your culture you probablywon't execute well and you
probably won't generate goodlong-term results.
That can go on forever.
So in that sense I think it is arebalancing and these things
tend to.
You know you find that theykind of flare up and become very
(25:42):
, very big and then they findkind of a bit more of a not
middle grounds not the rightword but they find some place in
the balance of things.
It can't just all be about theenvironment, it can't just all
be about the yes, it can't allbe about you know nothing to do
with financial performance.
Actually, at the end of the day, I think my belief is, if you
get these things right and youget them in balance, then
(26:03):
actually you will just generatebetter results for a long period
of time.
But you want to be careful toensure that these things do
retain a relationship with oneanother and aren't kind of.
You know, they're all aboutcreating a better organization
that ultimately performs better,is a better experience for its
people, and those things don'tever need to be in conflict.
(26:24):
Actually, they're probably, Iwould argue.
You know, it's all aboutgetting all rows.
You know all rows rowing in thesame direction, and I think
that's where the S kind of fallsin.
I would argue the E as well,although that's I think it's a
little more complicateddepending on what type of
organization you are.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Nathan, I'd love to ask you, because CEO activism is
and the word activism itself, Ithink, is actually, you know,
it can be at times controversial, but here at Darl we love to be
provocative.
Actually, we believe that thereis a very real need for
positive activism when it comesto CEOs and them driving the
(27:03):
message across all stakeholdergroups, because without true
buy-in from the CEO, it's verydifficult to actually move the
dial in the right direction.
Talk to us about what CEOactivism means to you, and if
there are any other CEOs who arelistening or on the fence
thinking this is something whichis, it's something that is yet
(27:25):
another box to take, what wouldyou say to them?
Because we need more peoplelike you.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think the activism word is
controversial actually, because,you know, I know my job is to
run auto trader and you knowthat doesn't necessarily mean
using that organisation toimpose my political views on the
rest of the world, becauseactually, ultimately, auto
trader and I are a separatething.
(27:51):
But what I can do and where Ithink it's right is, you know,
activism is about taking actionand actually I believe there's a
moral imperative around thestuff that we're talking about.
But I think there's a very goodbusiness imperative and we've
seen that at auto trader.
We've invested in these areas,we've taken action and it's
worked out really well for us.
So in that sense, I think, tobe honest, the job of a CEO is
(28:15):
to be action orientated, is tobe, you know, active and an
activist around the purpose ofyour organisation and about the
culture of your organisation.
So I get comfortable with itthere, I think.
But you do need to be part ofthe broader conversation to
spread.
Well, why is this important andwhy could it be a really
positive thing for you to dowithin your organisation?
(28:38):
I think at the moment, certainlyin the early days and you'll
know this even better than methere were lots of people
talking about the problem.
Lots of people talking about,you know, the lack of women
leaders on footsie boards or thelack of ethnic diversity in
boards or in leadership teams,but there was very, very few
people we found actually talkingabout.
All right, so what do you doother than just keep reporting?
(29:01):
Or, you know, go out and hire awoman on your board without
necessarily, you know,overemphasising that diversity
characteristic, without takinginto account merit, because the
irony of all these things is youdon't need to compromise merit
to have diversity.
You're probably missing peoplethat are very, very good if you
apply the same, if you apply thesame lens to the world.
(29:25):
So I think for me, it is aboutmaking sure that you know I'm
only talking about the thingsthat we've done in auto trade
that my big focus is on actuallyreally driving this within my
organisation and being open andavailable enough to speak to
other people and speak to peoplelike you and in the forums that
you create to advocate.
(29:46):
You know this is a better wayand it's just better morally.
It's better for our broadereconomy, it's better for our
broader society and, guess what?
It's probably better for yourbusiness as well, and I can
explain to you how it works atauto trader and you can come and
speak to some people at autotrader, because they wouldn't.
You know, we're beyond that evenbeing a question at all.
Actually.
(30:06):
I mean, it's so clearly a partof what we do and why we've been
successful that that questionis well and truly in the rear
vision mirror for us.
But I realise for a lot ofpeople it's right front and
centre and kind of making themask questions as to all you know
, is this just about peoplebeing woke or people just
imposing their own personalviews on things?
And I don't, you know.
I think they're all the rightquestions set to go through.
(30:29):
But on the other side of it, Ithink there's a really
meaningful job that we can dowithin our organisations to make
them better places for peopleand perform better as well over
time.
And you know that's somethingI'm willing to.
You know, I guess that's myrole I see as being a CEO
activist is making sure thatyou're sharing those stories,
but not overstepping the mark aswell and respecting, you know,
(30:51):
what society might want yourviews on and what they might not
want your views on.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That makes absolute sense and it is striking the
balance which I think that youhave done so beautifully
actually is being willing tolend your voice, to lend your
support, to lend your allyship,which you have done but equally
saying look, diversity,inclusion, belonging, equity,
culture is everyone'sresponsibility.
(31:16):
Yes, of course it's.
My responsibility is that theCEO to be, you know, an active
promoter of this, because itdrives engagement, equals better
business sense andprofitability, but equally, it
is things that our investors,our shareholders, also care
about.
So how do you strike thatbalance between actually, you
know, diversity as a commerciallever for the economic growth
(31:41):
imperative, but also doing justas you said right to start with?
This is about just doing theright thing and believing in it,
because actually, where we helpone, we help many others as
well, and the two do not need tobe mutually exclusive.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
So my answer to the question isI don't strike that balance at
all.
What we do is we really reallybelieve as we do at AutoTrader?
I mean, it's very much part ofthe culture of our business and
has been for years and years andyears back when we were a
magazine business and now we'rea technology business, even
though it's a kind of commercialimperative, but all happen from
(32:18):
the same thing.
We will get our heads around,you know, something that we
believe will be really, reallygood for the organisation, and
we pursue it, you know, with acommitment and a verb that I
think is very, very unusual.
That's what makes AutoTraderand over the years, we've shown
that those decisions have, byand large, been right not always
(32:39):
right, but actually you know,the organisation now, you know,
compared with when I joined it,you know, 15 years ago, is
probably, you know, six timeslarger than it was at that time.
So it's kind of worked outalright and I think, when it
comes to, you know, diversity,inclusion, making sure people
feel like they can do their verybest work when I became CEO
(33:01):
back in March 2020 which timingcould have been perhaps a little
bit better, because that'sobviously when lockdowns
happened, one of the things thatI really wanted to take further
.
We were early on that journey.
We've done a pretty good job ofsome foundational actions when
it related to gender, but Ireally wanted to push that
further, and that was not in andof itself, it was because I
(33:21):
really believed you could createorganisations that were
fulfilling and great for humanbeings to work in and weren't
you know, the Dilbert cartoonsand the office kind of show, you
know didn't need to beridiculous.
We can create places that arefun, engaging, good, that people
from all races and religionsand all aspects of diversity can
(33:41):
come together, learn more abouteach other, do really, really
good business together and getvery, very good results.
So for me, my point is there isno balance.
Actually, you, I think you cantake some, I think you can put
things out of balance, butthere's not a conflict where
it's kind of where we need a bitmore profit, so let's do a bit
more less diversity, inclusion,I think all those things for us.
(34:05):
I think this is the best thingabout what we do.
It doesn't always workperfectly for reporting purposes
and all those sorts of things,because you know, very often a
good example would be pay gapreporting.
Actually, if you're actuallyreally going to do this, your
pay gaps are going to increasefor a while because you need to
bring in people at the lowerlevels of the organisation and
then enable them to come up.
(34:26):
So actually, you know, it's notas straightforward and as easy
as I say.
I think very often the externalreporting might actually go
against you, even though you'redoing the right thing.
But I don't think it is a matterof balance.
I just believe you knoworganisations that have the pick
of the whole of society, thatcan choose anyone because
they've got an environment wherethose people feel like they'd
be comfortable, that they wantto join and they could do really
(34:48):
fine work once they get inthere and they don't feel
intimidated or left out or onthe edge of the organisation.
You know that group of peoplelike a sporting team.
They're just going to be moreengaged, more and work better as
a team.
And guess what?
That's what generally drivesgood business results, with a
big dose of external factorsthat we have to take into
(35:10):
account as we do our day to day.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Talent is everywhere and opportunity is not, but
there is opportunity, given allof these great things that
you're doing from a holisticpoint of view because, as you
say, driving engagement, I think.
I heard a statistic the otherday those that are in the
minority in any situation spend30% of their time worrying about
how they fit in and so all ofthis work drives and leads to
(35:37):
better performance, betterresults, better engagement and a
far happier or fun workingenvironment.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
I mean, I really I love that statistic and I
haven't heard it before and thething I really like about it is
it takes the politics out ofthis.
It takes the you know, thisspecific characteristic or
ethnicity or race or disabilityand all that, and just says
because I think this is thetruth of it.
We all know we've all hadsituations and the truth is some
(36:05):
groups have this happens a lotmore throughout their lifetimes
on average than it does for lotsof other groups of people.
But we all know when you're onthe outside, when you've had a
crap decision, when you feel onthe back foot, you just lose
your flow, your bumble, youdon't do.
You know you're not nearly asgood as what you would be.
(36:26):
When you're just not thinkingabout any of those things, I
think the 30% is anunderstatement.
I think anyone listening to thispodcast can think about all
right, you know those days wheremaybe you had the flu, maybe
you had a fight with your wifeor partner or whatever it might
be, maybe you've experiencedracism at the bus stop on the
(36:46):
way to work, it could be allthose things.
You know, when we turn up likethat, we just don't do our best
work and you know what we'retrying to do at Auto Trader and
the reason why there is nobalance to your previous
question is we're just trying tomake that thing true.
That there is no 30%, and I do.
(37:06):
I think that stat isunderstatement.
Many of us, as I said, havebeen in that situation.
I think most people would sayyou're probably half as
effective when you're not onyour game, and it is about
enabling everyone to be on theirgame, kind of always accepting
that that's never actually goingto happen.
But if we can make a bigdifference to it, then you'll be
doing well.
If we can make sure thatsomeone, because of their
(37:27):
ethnicity or sexual orientation,isn't constantly battered with
that every single day, thenyou're going to make a big
difference to your organisation.
And just you know, fundamentalproductivity not that it's
familiar about businessimperative.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Nathan, thank you so much.
It has been tremendous.
I feel like giving you a bighug actually.
I thought that was absolutelyfantastic and you know we're so
grateful to have had you on theshow and grateful for CEOs and
leaders like you that believeand also care, because that
transcends across organisationsand serves not only as role
(38:03):
models, but as real models, aswe like to call leaders at.
Dahl because you walk in thewalk and talk, and talk, and you
are doing everything you can.
You're aware that it is anevolution, but you never keep.
You never let the foot off thegas when it comes to momentum,
because this is so important.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
No well, we're not perfect, but we're trying hard
and actually I've got a greatorganisation.
The work that the organisationhas done in this area you know I
can only speak on their behalf,let alone taking any personal
credit so it's a big shout outto all of them as well.
Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Well, I think that we can all agree that that was a
fantastic interview with Nathan,and there were so many pieces
that really resonated with mepersonally from him having two
daughters and really wanting toinspire and educate them as they
go throughout their careerjourney, right the way through
to not only being a role model,but to being a real model.
(38:59):
Those of today must practicewhat they preach.
This is not just about thewords, but it is also about the
actions, and we can see thatthis has played out really well
at auto trader through drivingengagement, from not only
looking at gender parity throughto really championing LGBTQ
plus and transcending theimportance of inclusion across
(39:23):
the entire stakeholder community, right the way up to investors,
as Nathan pointed out.
If you'd like to listen toother CEO activists in action,
make sure you tune in to ourpodcast.
You can visit us atwwwdarlglobalorg.
Forward slash podcast or AppleSpotify or your favourite
(39:46):
podcast channel.
My name is LaylaMcKenzie-Dellers, founder of CEO
of Darglobal, and I'm lookingforward to seeing you again very
soon.
Hello and welcome to the CEO Activist podcast.
This is a show where I have theopportunity to meet with some
of the world's mostinspirational leaders of today.
We're going to be talking aboutwhy diversity is a commercial
lever for economic growth andprosperity, why putting the S in
ESG is so tremendouslyimportant.
(00:21):
I'm joined today by Nathan Coe,who is the CEO of AutoTrader.
He's going to be talking usthrough his journey up to the
top, from Sydney to the UK tonow being at the helm of one of
the UK's most well-knownorganisations.
Nathan, it is a pleasure to seeyou.
(00:47):
I know that I have had theopportunity to meet with you now
a number of times, but each andevery time you have struck me
as a true CEO activist, and soI'd love you to share a little
bit about how you came to bewhere you are today and what CEO
activism means to you.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Cool.
Well, thank you for having me,layla.
I think it's quite a long storyactually as to how the way that
I feel about diversity,inclusion, belonging has evolved
.
And I'd say, probably like lotsof people actually, I grew up
in very much a majority inAustralia white, six foot,
blonde hair, typical kind ofAustralian person, very
(01:29):
confident, never any reason toreally question myself, and so
you kind of assumed everyoneelse had exactly the same
experience of life.
You never, would neverconsciously say that because it
would be ridiculous, you know,but we don't really ask these
ourselves, these questions, whenwe're interacting with people
as well.
Perhaps their experience iscompletely different from mine
(01:49):
and that means that they show updifferently.
So, you know, I would say Iprobably grew up, you know, as
ignorant, as the average personperhaps, or certainly average
person that comes from mybackground, just assuming that
you know.
This is what the world lookslike to everyone, and I think
for me where it really startedwas having young girls.
(02:10):
I've now got one that's aged 11, one that's aged 15.
But when they were very, veryyoung, I noticed in their school
life I saw little signs ofthings happening where actually
they were having a very, verydifferent experience to me and
very small things, like mydaughter loves playing football.
So she went to go and play onthe football field, bought a
(02:34):
football for her and hergirlfriend's but was told
quickly that no, we're onlyallowed one football on the
playing field.
So and the boys had thefootball and the boys didn't
want to play with the girls.
So that meant effectively, thatrule meant that girls couldn't
play football at lunch times.
And I know that sounds verysmall and trivial, but then you
look at, you know things likevoting for class representatives
(02:57):
and those sorts of things inclasses where the majority of
the class are boys and it tendedto be all the class reps were
boys and I started seeing thesepatterns where I was like, hang
on, this just doesn't feel meritbased or fair in any sense of
the word.
Why are people not seeing this?
Why are people not doingsomething about it?
(03:17):
So it was really that personalexperience that really started
to you know, I'm ashamed to sayin a sense started to really get
me to start paying attention to.
Well, hang on, maybe the waythat people are showing up or,
of course, the way people areshowing up is massively driven
by their experience, andactually all of us have very,
very different experiences andwe need to take that into
(03:37):
account, particularly if we'rejudging merit, you know, because
something as simple asextraversion or introversion
could be massively impacted byyou know, if you've spent your
life being told no, you can'tplay football, no, you can't do
this, girls do this, or peoplefrom this race are like this, or
all those sorts of assumptionsthat can be plonked on people
that tend to be wrong and get inthe way of working out people
(03:59):
that might actually, in my case,from a work sense although this
is as big for me from apersonal sense people that might
be great for your organisation.
And then I think it was aboutactually on my journey.
It then kind of just cascadedinto more and more aspects of
humans that can be different.
So there was the Black LivesMatter campaign that kind of
(04:23):
kicked off and that led me tolead, get much more build my
understanding of ethnicity andrace and how that shows up and
how people are impacted by andwhat's the history of it in this
country, what's the history ofit in my own country, and I
would just say that for me, thiswhole question of the way
people show up and how that'simpacted by where they've come
(04:44):
from is just a massive area ofcuriosity and I think, as we've
unlocked that at Auto Trader andI wouldn't put it down to me
I've learnt as much from myorganisation as I've contributed
to it.
We've found actually there areloads and loads of people that
are really, really amazing andwanting to do a really, really
amazing job.
And if you kind of take intoaccount those differences
(05:05):
between us and work towardsbuilding a unified community
around those differences, thenactually your organisation
whether it's hiring, whetherit's performance, whether it's
promotion, all those things youjust get a lot more choices than
other organisations have,because you're providing a stage
for people to be able toperform and not be impacted by
(05:26):
many of those things that mighthave held them back at different
stages of their life.
So it's quite a long answer,but it's been a long journey and
it's kind of gone on from there.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's a fantastic answer, though, and I think, how
you describe this, it's almostbeen an evolutionary journey of
learning through all of thesedifferent intersections of
diversity and what that means.
You know your own culturalbackground, obviously coming
from Australia, the differentnuances coming here over to the
UK and then obviously now beingin the position of CEO, where
(05:58):
actually there is a real need tobe paying attention to not just
the growing pool ofstakeholders needs, but also
investors needs, community needs, customer needs, employee needs
.
You know the list is almostendless.
I would love just to take it alittle bit back to when you were
(06:20):
in Australia and your careerjourney.
Did you always have in yourmind's eye that you wanted to be
a CEO?
Because obviously you went fromCFO to COO into the CEO role.
Was that something you aspiredto from the early days?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Kind of yes and no actually, and I would say I
probably had more convictionabout it earlier in my life,
when we're at university and weknow everything about everything
, and you think you know I'dlove to be a great chief
executive but and I was likethat, I wanted to do business,
and I'll explain a little bitwhy that was.
I think there are really tworeasons behind it.
I do have a bit of a chip on myshoulder and it's nothing to do
(07:01):
with being Australian at all.
I came from a family where youknow working class.
My dad was a draftsman, my mumwas a nurse.
No one in my family had everbeen to university.
So there was a side to me thatand I don't really know who I
was shaking my fist at but Iused to listen a lot to bands
like Rage Against the Machine.
So I am a bit of anon-conformist, I guess is
(07:23):
probably the polite term for it.
So there was a side to me thatwanted to just say you know what
I'm going to do it?
I'm going to be the first oneto go to university, be the
first one to, you know, maybeearn more than the average wage
in my family, because no one haddone that.
So there's a side to me thatjust is drawn to disproving
(07:43):
people, even though there's noone I can point to.
That was well, I probably canpoint to a few people in my past
from school that you know weredefinitely non-believers in
Nathan that you know.
Hopefully, my life has become akind of a.
Well, there you go.
See, I did do it.
So there was partly that.
Interestingly, I would say thatover time I didn't and I don't
(08:06):
think it's healthy tonecessarily say at that age I
just want to become a CEObecause you think well, in
theory, well, everyone justwants to, should just want to
become a CEO because that's theTop of some business tree.
I think, as time went on, Iwould say I pursued that a lot,
lot less and a lot lessintentionally, and that actually
happened pretty early, once Istarted working.
(08:27):
I did want to do well, I didwant to disprove people, but I
realized that you know, youcan't.
Not everyone can be the CEO.
So what I focused on is justworking harder than the next
person, learning more than thenext person and retaining more,
more knowledge than the nextperson.
So and then I'd say, over timeit just became more natural that
(08:48):
, as I did those things, I loveleading people, I like people, I
like trying to make differentthings happening happen, I like
thinking about culture and a lotof those things you can only
really impact, you know, big wayas a chief executive.
So that almost became a meansto an end.
Actually, I wanted to make adifference.
I wanted to do something thatmattered.
I wanted to try to create anorganization where people,
(09:11):
people felt hugely engaged.
It was people orientated but atthe same time really performed
well and that kind of bucket ofthings you can only really do as
CEO.
So it did change a lot,initially the goal, but then
actually it just became themeans to the means to an end in
the end.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Thank you so much for sharing that.
It resonates such a lot andit's fascinating the amount of
CEOs that I speak to who havethat sense of vulnerability and
that sense of I've got to provesomething here which ultimately,
as you describe is, that is anincredible story of upward
social mobility, another facetof of diversity, which is
(09:49):
incredibly important.
It's something that sits belowthe surface as well.
You know, I have a great issuewith the, the terminology male,
pale and stale, and it can oftenyeah, you know you know it gets
a little chuckle, but at thesame time, diversity is so much
more than what meets the eye andit is yeah, no, it goes below
(10:10):
and the surface level.
Social mobility is absolutelyat the core of driving better
economies and driving betterbusiness for good for all.
And and I mean it makes methink actually of the, the
modern CEO, which, of course,you are a very modern CEO, ford,
thinking innovative.
(10:30):
But what do modern CEOs need tobe considering when it comes to
, you know, staying abreast ofthe curve, because I think you
know the great thing aboutyourself and others that I've
had that the fortunateopportunity of interviewing is.
You know these days of the kindof the, the hierarchical kind
of why ivory tower office isover now.
(10:53):
Yeah you know there's so muchmore of an expectation of
leaders to be, at times,vulnerable and to share.
You know where they have comefrom and the why and the purpose
behind what it is that they aredoing.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a massive question and
there in lives the the mysteryof what it takes to be a great
CEO, and I certainly wouldn'tpretend to be able to have the
list of you know.
These are all the things thatyou've got to do.
Well, I think there is.
You know, there are lists, andI read a lot and I study a lot
and obviously think about myrole a lot.
I think it does change indifferent circumstances, but I
think there are someFundamentals in terms of staying
(11:28):
abreast.
I think one of the biggestthings for me is that If you
think about leadership and maybetake politics as the most
extreme example of this, at theend of the day, many people do
get a job, a CEO job, and theycan kind of impose their will on
the Organization and tellpeople what to do, and that's
not really going to be a veryengaging place.
(11:48):
So my view of leadership isactually and almost the the
success of your leadership willbe down to well, how strongly do
your people trust you?
Do they vote for you, as theyhave to in in politics, you know
?
Do they trust your decisions?
Do they trust that you've gottheir interests in mind?
Do they trust you enough thatthey'll put in.
(12:09):
You know they'll be vulnerable.
They'll put their best effortin, they'll be fully engaged.
They'll make sure that theytake on, you know, those small
decisions that happen allthroughout an organization.
They'll make that rightdecision and they'll take that
risk.
So I think at the end of theday, for me one of the most
fundamental elements is, as aleader, do your people trust you
and the extent to which that'strue?
(12:30):
I think people will follow you.
You know a very, very, a very,very long way, but at the same
time you've got to give themgood reason to to follow you.
So it's not like you can kindof be the pied pipe or you've
got their trust.
Now let's go and do this thingover there.
I think the actions also Feedinto feeding to trust.
And the other thing I think Iwould say that you know You've
(12:52):
seen catch out a lot ofbusinesses and CEOs is the Moral
imperatives around.
Business are just really reallyhigh actually, and you are even
though we're not politicians atall, we are big public leaders.
In the case of auto trailer,it's a public company.
You are expected to be rolemodels and you're expected to
run your businesses in a waythat is net positive to society,
(13:15):
just making more money thisyear over last, you know, the
ask is so much, so much biggerthan that now and I think,
interestingly, some people say,well, that sounds like that's
all the lords businesses shouldbe about.
Making money.
That's kind of the invisiblehand of capitalism and I don't
think the two things are at oddswith each other and I think
(13:36):
that sits around a lot of thework that you do, that actually
really really good business Willresult in really really good
results.
It can't necessarily, I think,if you are pursuing profit at
the expense of you know, whetherit's employing engagement or
making sure that you've got adiverse group of people,
tackling problems actually willonly be true for a certain
(13:59):
amount of time.
And we've seen, you know, whenthese things like culture, like
Engagement, like diversity andinclusion, when these things are
neglected over very, very longperiods of time, you tend to see
culture suffers, and that'swhen bad things are.
Bad things happen withbusinesses.
I really do believe that to betrue and, of course, I believe
the opposite of it to be true aswell, which, if you really
(14:22):
really invest in very, very goodfoundations and over time, the
business will perform very, verywell.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
You've picked up on some really valuable points and
what I'm hearing is that the twoare not mutually exclusive.
No, diversity, inclusion,belonging, equity, culture it's
a living, it's a breathing, it'sa sleeping thing, as you've
articulated, they're perfectlyand ultimately, diversity as
this commercial lever foreconomic growth and prosperity
(14:49):
is something that marries uptogether.
Doing well through fosteringtrust of the people within the
organizations and thestakeholders that are involved,
but then also making sure thisis not performative.
You know this is about not onlythe words but, as you have and
auto trader has, is puttingactions Behind those words and
(15:13):
those imperatives.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, and I think,
from my perspective, the wordsdon't change anything actually.
So if you are doing words, Isuspect what you're probably
doing is creating a rod for yourown back and then getting none
of the benefit of it.
So so which I don't see muchpoint to it at all, and I do
think the two things do go handin hand, and for me it's
(15:34):
relatively simple.
Actually, auto trader operatespredominantly in Manchester and
London.
You know, those communities arevery, very, very diverse.
If we want the best people,then we need to create an
environment where as many peopleas possible will be attracted
to AutoTrader and feel like it'sa place where they can do their
(15:55):
best work, and if we do thatreally, really well, then we
will probably attract peoplefrom within communities that
will otherwise not feel safe atother organizations or not even
feel really interested in it.
I'd say the number one reasonwhy people say they join
AutoTrader is its culture.
Now, I think over time theyalso like the work that we do.
They like the technology aspectto the business.
(16:16):
You know, those things are allgood, but the reason why they
join is predominant of culture,because that is the dominant
aspect of an employeesexperience.
So I think if you do get thatright, then, as I mentioned
earlier, and I think we see thisyou find it easier to hire
people than other organizationswill be able to do.
People do better work, so youend up getting people promoted
(16:39):
and developing throughout theorganization and you retain more
people as well.
And recruiting and losing people.
They are very, very expensivebusiness decisions.
So actually if you can do thatquite well and we don't do it
because of the economics, wehaven't written a business case
around it, we just think it'sthe right thing to do and, like
lots of things, we think if wedo the right thing then it will
show up in the results.
(17:00):
But if you start to unpick it,actually I would say making sure
all of our communities, even ifit's from a national level, but
even within business make sureall communities feel like this
is a place where they can dowell and there's opportunities
for them that they can aspire toand there's support there to
help them develop into thoseopportunities.
And that has to be veryobviously good for economic
(17:22):
growth, because more of thecommunity, more of the
population, whatever, are ableto be productive and get into
roles where they can kind of dotheir very finest work because
otherwise they just wouldn't bedoing it.
So for me it's almostmathematical QED.
We get more people involveddoing their very finest work,
that means more good stuffcoming out of the UK or more
(17:43):
good stuff coming out of autotrader and everyone's happy.
But I'll admit there is a hintof idealism to that which is,
and the reality is gritty andhard to make.
That happen is no, it's mucheasier said than done.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
But I think there's always a hint of idealism and we
must be positively optimisticwhen we see everything happening
in the world, with kind ofgeopolitical challenges, lots
and lots of I think it's 70elections which are happening
around the globe.
Trying to find that stabilityin a storm and maintaining
(18:19):
optimism for the people withinyour organizations is so, so,
very important.
And it really touches me thatyou talk about the you know this
not just being a return oninvestment.
You know, for many leaders andcertainly us in the diversity,
inclusion, belonging space, youknow we're hearing oh, what's
the return on investment?
What's the return on investment?
(18:40):
And what you've described thereis actually.
What's the impact of inactionif we are not to be driving
things forward?
There is unwavering, unwaveringdata and research that shows
there is a business case for allof these things, from diverse
suppliers right the way throughdiversity within marketing,
(19:02):
representing all.
But there are still the odd oneor two leaders, you know, like
the Elon Musk's of the world,who, when I read headlines like
DEI must die, it made me want todie inside and I thought, oh my
God.
You know we really now, evenmore than ever, we must have
(19:22):
great leaders like yourself andothers who are standing up and
being even more vocal about whythis is so important to future
generations of leaders in theworkplace and you know, your
daughter's, my 19 month old baby, and so on and so forth because
there's so much caring therefor this to be important.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah well, and I think you know I can understand
that's definitely how you'd feelwhen you hear something like
that.
And I think there's a real.
There's a real conflictactually, and it comes back to
something you said earlier, Ithink when these you know a lot
of this has been imposed inregulation or in corporate
governance codes and then got areport against this and report
(20:03):
that, and I think if you doapproach that, you know, get the
words right, it's another boxto tick.
The problem is, I can see thatit's.
I can see why some people mightsay, well, this is just onerous
and it's, it's for no good.
And I think the point I make isthat, actually, if you pursue
the substance of the thing,which, at the end of the day, is
a belief that you want toensure that you provide an
(20:25):
environment where anyone of anybackground can do their very
finest work, and you want toensure that, within your
organization, when you'retalking about stuff, products,
to launch marketing campaigns,whatever it might be, that you
have a diverse group of peoplearound the table, and that means
diversity in the, you know thebiggest sense of the word.
You want diverse views beingthrown into something, have a
(20:49):
big kind of argument and debateand you'll emerge the other side
with a better point of view.
I find it very difficult tobelieve that actually having
everyone that's exactly the samegetting in a room and making a
decision is going to be betterthan having a diverse group of
people having that very samedebate and coming up with a
conclusion.
So I think the problem is if itfeels like a box ticking
(21:12):
exercise.
If it's treated as a boxticking exercise, it is onerous,
it is difficult and that's, youknow, might be why you get, you
know, people expressingskepticism.
I think if you take it at theheart of it, as a, you know, a
fundamental kind of moralimperative, then actually the
benefits I mean AutoTrade willbe a very, very different
company if we hadn't pursuedthese things.
And I could say in all cases,you know we get hit by the
(21:35):
onerous obligations and we'vegot to.
You know there are elements toour reporting that we've got to
do.
You know lots and lots ofdifferent things that we might
not otherwise do, but actually,because we're taking the
principle of it kind of very,very seriously, the fact that
we've got to report a couple ofthings, actually, if anything,
we tend to under-report on thestuff that we do, because we're
not doing it for reporting froma reporting perspective.
(21:58):
But if you do a, pursue theheart of these things and you
really focus on you know cradleto grave within your career at
AutoTrade, if we can get thesethings right, we're bringing
diverse groups of people andproviding them with an
opportunity to excel, and thenwe end up with, you know, truly
diverse leadership teams makingthe making decisions that really
really matter to the company.
(22:18):
Then you just will be betteroff.
As I said, to me it's kind ofquite a common sense thing but
it is not about.
You know it requires, you knowit is probably less work to do
the box ticking but it is justonerous and there is no real
return on it.
But if you put in the hardyards, actually, you know, the
return is kind of there and, Ithink, reasonably easy to bet on
(22:41):
.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
And what we're seeing is this really well, I say some
makeshift, but for the lastdecade we've seen the EB kind of
the shining, shining light ofESG.
Analysts are saying that the Swill be what the E is being over
the last decade and when weanalyzed a lot of the different
reporting standards and thingslike this diversity and
(23:03):
inclusion, belonging equityculture in one guys or another,
dei, ind.
I know there's many differentdifferent anagrams for this fell
into that S, and that'ssomething that you're doing
fantastically well at AutoTrade,because, ultimately, this
stakeholder group of investorswho is investing in
organizations that are purposedriven is growing, which,
(23:24):
seemingly, we're kind of we'regoing through the eye of the
storm right now and will comeout the other end, especially
knowing that frameworks like thewealth economy, which measures
things that you have mentionedbeyond just wealth as GDP or USD
, we're looking at human capital, knowledge capital, social
capital, people capital, whichis everything you stand for.
Talk to us a little bit aboutthe S and the importance of that
(23:47):
and some of the examples thatyou are doing so brilliantly
well at AutoTrade.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Well, I'd start by saying I don't think we're
perfect, but we're trying veryhard.
I think it is interesting.
I think it is.
There are good reasons tobelieve that what you say is
true.
It's interesting that the newUK Corporate Governance Code has
just been released for 2024 andit does call out specifically
(24:12):
boards needing to pay attentionto the diversity and inclusion
within their organization.
So I definitely think it is.
You know, it is moving that way,and ESG for many, many years
felt like it was very, very Eand a bit of G heavy and the S
was kind of lost in there.
So I think there is, and Ithink there's very good reason
(24:34):
for that, because when you dolook at things like the code or
you look at why they get tothese now they end up being a
code that you need to complywith or explain why you're not
complying with it.
So it can be, well, this is abox, we've got a tick, but if
you look at the language thatthey use around supporting it,
it's actually you know, anybusiness person would kind of
say these things that you know agood culture.
(24:55):
You know an organization needsto ensure that its purpose, its
strategy and its culture are allaligned and that it's taking
into account the diverse viewsof all stakeholders.
And the way that you do that isthrough diverse teams.
So the way that they talk aboutit is very, very common sense.
And I think very often you knowthe DE and I stuff is pulled
out, or the S is pulled out veryspecifically.
But the reality is why it'simportant, why it works, why
(25:20):
there is a return on it, is ifyou don't get all those bits
aligned in an organization, fromyour purpose to your strategy,
to your culture you probablywon't execute well and you
probably won't generate goodlong-term results.
That can go on forever.
So in that sense I think it is arebalancing and these things
tend to.
You know you find that theykind of flare up and become very
(25:42):
, very big and then they findkind of a bit more of a not
middle grounds not the rightword but they find some place in
the balance of things.
It can't just all be about theenvironment, it can't just all
be about the yes, it can't allbe about you know nothing to do
with financial performance.
Actually, at the end of the day, I think my belief is, if you
get these things right and youget them in balance, then
(26:03):
actually you will just generatebetter results for a long period
of time.
But you want to be careful toensure that these things do
retain a relationship with oneanother and aren't kind of.
You know, they're all aboutcreating a better organization
that ultimately performs better,is a better experience for its
people, and those things don'tever need to be in conflict.
(26:24):
Actually, they're probably, Iwould argue.
You know, it's all aboutgetting all rows.
You know all rows rowing in thesame direction, and I think
that's where the S kind of fallsin.
I would argue the E as well,although that's I think it's a
little more complicateddepending on what type of
organization you are.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Nathan, I'd love to ask you, because CEO activism is
and the word activism itself, Ithink, is actually, you know,
it can be at times controversial, but here at Darl we love to be
provocative.
Actually, we believe that thereis a very real need for
positive activism when it comesto CEOs and them driving the
(27:03):
message across all stakeholdergroups, because without true
buy-in from the CEO, it's verydifficult to actually move the
dial in the right direction.
Talk to us about what CEOactivism means to you, and if
there are any other CEOs who arelistening or on the fence
thinking this is something whichis, it's something that is yet
(27:25):
another box to take, what wouldyou say to them?
Because we need more peoplelike you.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think the activism word is
controversial actually, because,you know, I know my job is to
run auto trader and you knowthat doesn't necessarily mean
using that organisation toimpose my political views on the
rest of the world, becauseactually, ultimately, auto
trader and I are a separatething.
(27:51):
But what I can do and where Ithink it's right is, you know,
activism is about taking actionand actually I believe there's a
moral imperative around thestuff that we're talking about.
But I think there's a very goodbusiness imperative and we've
seen that at auto trader.
We've invested in these areas,we've taken action and it's
worked out really well for us.
So in that sense, I think, tobe honest, the job of a CEO is
(28:15):
to be action orientated, is tobe, you know, active and an
activist around the purpose ofyour organisation and about the
culture of your organisation.
So I get comfortable with itthere, I think.
But you do need to be part ofthe broader conversation to
spread.
Well, why is this important andwhy could it be a really
positive thing for you to dowithin your organisation?
(28:38):
I think at the moment, certainlyin the early days and you'll
know this even better than methere were lots of people
talking about the problem.
Lots of people talking about,you know, the lack of women
leaders on footsie boards or thelack of ethnic diversity in
boards or in leadership teams,but there was very, very few
people we found actually talkingabout.
All right, so what do you doother than just keep reporting?
(29:01):
Or, you know, go out and hire awoman on your board without
necessarily, you know,overemphasising that diversity
characteristic, without takinginto account merit, because the
irony of all these things is youdon't need to compromise merit
to have diversity.
You're probably missing peoplethat are very, very good if you
apply the same, if you apply thesame lens to the world.
(29:25):
So I think for me, it is aboutmaking sure that you know I'm
only talking about the thingsthat we've done in auto trade
that my big focus is on actuallyreally driving this within my
organisation and being open andavailable enough to speak to
other people and speak to peoplelike you and in the forums that
you create to advocate.
(29:46):
You know this is a better wayand it's just better morally.
It's better for our broadereconomy, it's better for our
broader society and, guess what?
It's probably better for yourbusiness as well, and I can
explain to you how it works atauto trader and you can come and
speak to some people at autotrader, because they wouldn't.
You know, we're beyond that evenbeing a question at all.
Actually.
(30:06):
I mean, it's so clearly a partof what we do and why we've been
successful that that questionis well and truly in the rear
vision mirror for us.
But I realise for a lot ofpeople it's right front and
centre and kind of making themask questions as to all you know
, is this just about peoplebeing woke or people just
imposing their own personalviews on things?
And I don't, you know.
I think they're all the rightquestions set to go through.
(30:29):
But on the other side of it, Ithink there's a really
meaningful job that we can dowithin our organisations to make
them better places for peopleand perform better as well over
time.
And you know that's somethingI'm willing to.
You know, I guess that's myrole I see as being a CEO
activist is making sure thatyou're sharing those stories,
but not overstepping the mark aswell and respecting, you know,
(30:51):
what society might want yourviews on and what they might not
want your views on.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
That makes absolute sense and it is striking the
balance which I think that youhave done so beautifully
actually is being willing tolend your voice, to lend your
support, to lend your allyship,which you have done but equally
saying look, diversity,inclusion, belonging, equity,
culture is everyone'sresponsibility.
(31:16):
Yes, of course it's.
My responsibility is that theCEO to be, you know, an active
promoter of this, because itdrives engagement, equals better
business sense andprofitability, but equally, it
is things that our investors,our shareholders, also care
about.
So how do you strike thatbalance between actually, you
know, diversity as a commerciallever for the economic growth
(31:41):
imperative, but also doing justas you said right to start with?
This is about just doing theright thing and believing in it,
because actually, where we helpone, we help many others as
well, and the two do not need tobe mutually exclusive.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
So my answer to the question isI don't strike that balance at
all.
What we do is we really reallybelieve as we do at AutoTrader?
I mean, it's very much part ofthe culture of our business and
has been for years and years andyears back when we were a
magazine business and now we'rea technology business, even
though it's a kind of commercialimperative, but all happen from
(32:18):
the same thing.
We will get our heads around,you know, something that we
believe will be really, reallygood for the organisation, and
we pursue it, you know, with acommitment and a verb that I
think is very, very unusual.
That's what makes AutoTraderand over the years, we've shown
that those decisions have, byand large, been right not always
(32:39):
right, but actually you know,the organisation now, you know,
compared with when I joined it,you know, 15 years ago, is
probably, you know, six timeslarger than it was at that time.
So it's kind of worked outalright and I think, when it
comes to, you know, diversity,inclusion, making sure people
feel like they can do their verybest work when I became CEO
(33:01):
back in March 2020 which timingcould have been perhaps a little
bit better, because that'sobviously when lockdowns
happened, one of the things thatI really wanted to take further
.
We were early on that journey.
We've done a pretty good job ofsome foundational actions when
it related to gender, but Ireally wanted to push that
further, and that was not in andof itself, it was because I
(33:21):
really believed you could createorganisations that were
fulfilling and great for humanbeings to work in and weren't
you know, the Dilbert cartoonsand the office kind of show, you
know didn't need to beridiculous.
We can create places that arefun, engaging, good, that people
from all races and religionsand all aspects of diversity can
(33:41):
come together, learn more abouteach other, do really, really
good business together and getvery, very good results.
So for me, my point is there isno balance.
Actually, you, I think you cantake some, I think you can put
things out of balance, butthere's not a conflict where
it's kind of where we need a bitmore profit, so let's do a bit
more less diversity, inclusion,I think all those things for us.
(34:05):
I think this is the best thingabout what we do.
It doesn't always workperfectly for reporting purposes
and all those sorts of things,because you know, very often a
good example would be pay gapreporting.
Actually, if you're actuallyreally going to do this, your
pay gaps are going to increasefor a while because you need to
bring in people at the lowerlevels of the organisation and
then enable them to come up.
(34:26):
So actually, you know, it's notas straightforward and as easy
as I say.
I think very often the externalreporting might actually go
against you, even though you'redoing the right thing.
But I don't think it is a matterof balance.
I just believe you knoworganisations that have the pick
of the whole of society, thatcan choose anyone because
they've got an environment wherethose people feel like they'd
be comfortable, that they wantto join and they could do really
(34:48):
fine work once they get inthere and they don't feel
intimidated or left out or onthe edge of the organisation.
You know that group of peoplelike a sporting team.
They're just going to be moreengaged, more and work better as
a team.
And guess what?
That's what generally drivesgood business results, with a
big dose of external factorsthat we have to take into
(35:10):
account as we do our day to day.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Talent is everywhere and opportunity is not, but
there is opportunity, given allof these great things that
you're doing from a holisticpoint of view because, as you
say, driving engagement, I think.
I heard a statistic the otherday those that are in the
minority in any situation spend30% of their time worrying about
how they fit in and so all ofthis work drives and leads to
(35:37):
better performance, betterresults, better engagement and a
far happier or fun workingenvironment.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
I mean, I really I love that statistic and I
haven't heard it before and thething I really like about it is
it takes the politics out ofthis.
It takes the you know, thisspecific characteristic or
ethnicity or race or disabilityand all that, and just says
because I think this is thetruth of it.
We all know we've all hadsituations and the truth is some
(36:05):
groups have this happens a lotmore throughout their lifetimes
on average than it does for lotsof other groups of people.
But we all know when you're onthe outside, when you've had a
crap decision, when you feel onthe back foot, you just lose
your flow, your bumble, youdon't do.
You know you're not nearly asgood as what you would be.
(36:26):
When you're just not thinkingabout any of those things, I
think the 30% is anunderstatement.
I think anyone listening to thispodcast can think about all
right, you know those days wheremaybe you had the flu, maybe
you had a fight with your wifeor partner or whatever it might
be, maybe you've experiencedracism at the bus stop on the
(36:46):
way to work, it could be allthose things.
You know, when we turn up likethat, we just don't do our best
work and you know what we'retrying to do at Auto Trader and
the reason why there is nobalance to your previous
question is we're just trying tomake that thing true.
That there is no 30%, and I do.
(37:06):
I think that stat isunderstatement.
Many of us, as I said, havebeen in that situation.
I think most people would sayyou're probably half as
effective when you're not onyour game, and it is about
enabling everyone to be on theirgame, kind of always accepting
that that's never actually goingto happen.
But if we can make a bigdifference to it, then you'll be
doing well.
If we can make sure thatsomeone, because of their
(37:27):
ethnicity or sexual orientation,isn't constantly battered with
that every single day, thenyou're going to make a big
difference to your organisation.
And just you know, fundamentalproductivity not that it's
familiar about businessimperative.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Nathan, thank you so much.
It has been tremendous.
I feel like giving you a bighug actually.
I thought that was absolutelyfantastic and you know we're so
grateful to have had you on theshow and grateful for CEOs and
leaders like you that believeand also care, because that
transcends across organisationsand serves not only as role
(38:03):
models, but as real models, aswe like to call leaders at.
Dahl because you walk in thewalk and talk, and talk, and you
are doing everything you can.
You're aware that it is anevolution, but you never keep.
You never let the foot off thegas when it comes to momentum,
because this is so important.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
No well, we're not perfect, but we're trying hard
and actually I've got a greatorganisation.
The work that the organisationhas done in this area you know I
can only speak on their behalf,let alone taking any personal
credit so it's a big shout outto all of them as well.
Thank you Thanks.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Well, I think that we can all agree that that was a
fantastic interview with Nathan,and there were so many pieces
that really resonated with mepersonally from him having two
daughters and really wanting toinspire and educate them as they
go throughout their careerjourney, right the way through
to not only being a role model,but to being a real model.
(38:59):
Those of today must practicewhat they preach.
This is not just about thewords, but it is also about the
actions, and we can see thatthis has played out really well
at auto trader through drivingengagement, from not only
looking at gender parity throughto really championing LGBTQ
plus and transcending theimportance of inclusion across
(39:23):
the entire stakeholder community, right the way up to investors,
as Nathan pointed out.
If you'd like to listen toother CEO activists in action,
make sure you tune in to ourpodcast.
You can visit us atwwwdarlglobalorg.
Forward slash podcast or AppleSpotify or your favourite
(39:46):
podcast channel.
My name is LaylaMcKenzie-Dellers, founder of CEO
of Darglobal, and I'm lookingforward to seeing you again very
soon.
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