March 7, 2024 • 35 mins
When Melody Moore took a courageous leap, leaving behind a tenured NHS position to start anew in Canada, little did she know the journey would transform her into a DEI luminary and an inspiring voice for change. This episode peers into Mel's riveting narrative, tracing the pivotal shifts that launched her from healthcare to a champion of diversity, equity, and inclusion, now sharing her insights as a consultant and author. Her story is a vibrant tapestry, woven with threads of leadership, self-discovery, and the profound belief in the impact one can have on the world.
As Mel's tale unfolds, we tread the path of integrating identity and experience into the professional realm, touching on the nuances of LGBTQ+ experiences and the solo voyage of single parenthood. In a candid exchange, I share my own strides as a single parent in the corporate sphere, alongside the lessons of empathy and efficiency parenthood instills. We then venture into the heart of my upcoming book, exploring an innovative team model that marries the best of high-performance strategy with the tenets of DEI, setting the stage for organizations to harness a culture of intellectual humility, psychological safety, and a continuous growth mindset. Join us for a conversation that reimagines the essence of inclusion, directly at the intersection where personal journeys meet professional aspirations.
📔 Melody Moore recently released a book called "The Inclusive Team: How to Build and Develop Inclusive High Performing Teams" and you can get it here: https://amzn.to/3T5hmMj
🎧 Check our podcast audio here: www.dialglobal.org/podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Diverse and Inclusive
Leaders podcast.
This is the show where I speakwith the most inspirational and
thought-provoking leaders oftoday and unearth their unique
stories of diversity andinclusions, help inspire,
educate and motivate others tomake the world a better place.
Talking of motivation, we'rejoined by the fabulous Melody
(00:30):
Moore, as well as known as Mel.
Mel is insanely curious.
She is a DEI expert, she knowsa huge amount about leadership
and coaching and has over twodecades worth of experience
supporting organizations andleaders in being their best
selves.
She, too, hosts a podcast.
It's called the Secret Resume.
(00:52):
She's author of the Inclusiveteam and we're going to be
talking about her book launch,which is in January 2024.
Mel's background spans workingfor organizations like Cornferry
, the NHS and a number of otherglobal consulting firms, just to
name a few.
Welcome to the show, mel.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you.
I don't think I've ever beendescribed so nicely, so thank
you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Absolutely not true.
I know that you are a bit of asuperhero and known very well to
myself and the team here atDial.
It's really fantastic tofinally have you on the podcast.
Really just to unpick thejourney and talk about how you
came to be where you are today,because it has been a really
(01:46):
impressive learning curvingjourney that you've been on.
So take us back to where it allstarted.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yes, I think what you were trying to say nicely was
been a long journey.
So, yeah, I started.
I did start my career in theNHS and that really came out of
a passion for doing the rightthing.
I think there was a real sense.
I was in my early 20s and Ireally wanted to make a
(02:15):
difference and I think that'sprobably been a theme through my
life is wanted to have animpact and make a difference,
and I think at that time it wasa sense of wanting to make a
difference in the public sectorNHS sense.
But I think over time that'sreally evolved into really
(02:37):
wanting to make a difference topeople and helping people be the
very best version of themselvesand therefore helping
organisations be the bestversion of themselves.
Because I think when you areyoung you start off with that I
(03:01):
want to change the world andit's going to be massive and I
think that actually where I'vecome to is thinking that
actually just making adifference to one person, two
people, three people, has thatmassive ripple effect.
So you have that impact, but itmight be through really
supporting a leader who happensto lead a thousand people and
(03:25):
therefore you actually have animpact on those thousand people.
You just can't see it.
You have to trust that you'redoing it.
So yeah, that's where I started.
Do you want me to tell you abit more about how I got to here
?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I would love that.
And just coming back to one ofyour points there, I really love
how you describe the fact thatthe wider population, society
and organisations are critical.
But you're absolutely right insaying that the impact starts
with the individuals.
If you can have that support,you do so very well through your
(04:03):
mentorship and your coaching toreally support those key
individuals and allow them toelevate the empowerment.
And this ripple effect you talkabout has a profound effect
through the wider roots,branches, leaves of
organisations and thus society.
Yes, tell me about the earlydays.
(04:23):
Having always been this curious, did you expect that the career
path would take this route?
Because, of course, you're anexpert in psychology.
You studied organisationalpsychology at York and
Manchester.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, no, that's the answer.
And I think it's reallyinteresting when you, when I
meet young people who are earlyon in their careers and I always
say that you know, I don't, Idon't think hand on heart that
most people that I've met whoare later in their careers have
followed a particular route.
Lots and lots of people havekind of meandered or taken
(05:03):
advantage of opportunities andabsolutely I had absolutely no
idea, I never even thought ofbeing a consultant, which is
what I've been for the past 20odd years.
But when I started it was verymuch in the NHS.
I then met a man and fell inlove and moved to Canada, which
was kind of a hiatus.
So I was kind of on this careertrajectory in the NHS.
(05:27):
I was at Wales and then I movedto Northwest London and then I
moved to Canada for a couple ofyears.
And that was such a pivotalmoment in my life because for
two reasons.
One was I took a step downcareer-wise and I was working as
someone's EA, basically PA, andbeing somewhere where I didn't
(05:54):
have the career anymore reallymade me realise how important
that was to me.
So I was sort of late twentiesby then.
I really realised that it wasvery a core part of me and my
identity was the work that Ididn't.
It's very important to me.
The other thing was that Iworked for this guy who was so
(06:15):
inspirational.
So at that point I'd done apsychology degree.
I'd hated it.
I really didn't enjoy it at all.
It wasn't what I thought it wasgonna be, was not for me at all
, and I kind of left it aloneand went and worked as a manager
in the NHS, a general manager.
I'd done an HR qualification atthat point.
(06:37):
But I worked for this guy andhe was really, really into
leadership.
He was the operations managerfor 10 ski resorts.
So I lived in a ski resort inCanada, Worcester, and he was
really into leadership.
He had all the books and allthese great magazines like Fast
(06:59):
Company and all these things I'dnever come across before
Harvard Business Review, stufflike that and because I wasn't
particularly busy, if I'm honest, I used to spend time reading
these things and he'd be like ohyou know, Mal, can you review
these things and tell me?
And he had all these books andhe really, really ignited this
love of leadership and Irealized that when I'd been in
(07:23):
the NHS what I'd loved wasdeveloping people.
And so when I came back fromthe, great love became no longer
a great love and I came back tothe UK and that's when I went
and did my masters inoccupational psychology and I
thought this is, I wanna pursue,this idea of people development
.
That's what I realized was areal passion for me.
(07:47):
And then I kind of fell intoconsulting.
I didn't really know whatconsulting was and I kind of
fell into it and have been hereever since.
So that was 2001.
I started working for OPP,which is now the Myers-Briggs
Company, and that was quiteniche occupational psychology.
(08:09):
And then after five years Ithen went to the Hay Group,
which then became Cornfairy, andthat was much broader and that
was fantastic in terms of takingme out of that sort of perhaps
more narrow way of thinking intoreally understanding
organizations and really workingwith a huge range of people who
(08:33):
had a lot of experience of alldifferent aspects of HR and
people consulting.
So, yeah, that's how.
And then, yeah, a year ago,just over a year ago, I decided
to go and do it for myself and Ileft and have set up Liberare
Consulting.
Yeah, just over a year ago, ohyeah, and I'm loving it.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Well, mel, that is some story and huge
congratulations with the successof the business and the
upcoming book that I know we'regonna dive deep into very soon.
But some of the things thatreally stand out is almost these
pivotal inflection moments ofpersonal lives and how they
intersect with the rare.
(09:20):
You mentioned that sometimesthere's this almost meandering
towards and away fromopportunities and, yeah, I think
much is the same for a lot ofsuccessful people.
You know you wonder why or howthat will lead to something
which is bigger.
But when you take a moment tostep back and look at how far
(09:42):
you've come up the mountain, itmakes sense as to why you did
the psychology, why you ended upgoing into uncharted
territories, having thatinternational experience.
But then all feeds into thefact that this is important the
identity of what you do, thesupport and the help for others,
the diversity of the experience, but also bringing together
(10:06):
what is, you know, the personalloves in life, you know, as well
as driving that forward andutilizing that ultimately to
help advise and educate othersultimately.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It's interesting because I think you're right.
A lot of people you know it'smy podcast.
I said the secret resume.
What I get people to do is lookat those pivotal moments and
often it's, you know, for me itwas when I went off the beaten
track that have been the mostpivotal.
So it's not the you know, it'snot the kind of following rigid
(10:47):
career path.
It is where I've gone and donesomething different.
So the other pivotal moment wasI became a single mum 12 years
ago now, so a long time ago, andthat caused me to make more of
a sideways shift in myconsulting career.
But what that did was reallybroaden my experience.
(11:08):
So I'm really a huge fan ofhaving a breadth of experience
and it gave me some greatopportunity to get into just
understanding some differentthings, such as diagnostics at a
much deeper level, but alsomarketing, and that has then
sort of led me to do so thebooks called the inclusive team.
(11:30):
I've developed a diagnosticbecause I kind of had that
experience of taking thatsideways move.
But what also I think is thatbeing a single parent developed
my love and passion for D&I andthat's really how I got into D&I
, from coming from a sort oflearning and development
(11:53):
coaching background, I then, youknow about five or six years
ago now, really kind of got intogetting involved in D&I and,
like I say, that being a singlemum is probably what really
pushed me into that.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Take my hat off to yourself and to all the single
parents out there.
As much as I admire parents,those who do it alone need to
have another level of expertise,quite frankly, and I just think
(12:33):
it's tremendous doing that andalso juggling with the career
and picking up on perhaps someprovocative points.
Here actually is the wholeconcept and the notion of
diversity, which to me it simplymeans difference.
We've had many a conversationlike this recently when talking
(12:54):
about everyone from clients andindividuals.
Diversity means differentthings to different people, and
the notion that I see a lot inthe press at the moment it gives
me deep, unsettled concernsthat we have a perception of
what diversity means and that itis almost one faceted or one
(13:19):
dimensional.
For us to believe that it ispurely about race or gender or
sexuality, for example, seemssuch a naive thing, given the
fact that the world is moving soquickly and actually, unless
we're asking these questions, wewould never know that you are a
parent, let alone a singleparent, who has experienced many
(13:42):
other things throughout life.
Yeah take on that and thisevolution of diversity, because
it can be quite polarising attimes.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Definitely, and I think what's interesting is this
sense that it's.
A lot of diversity is notvisible and we tend to focus in
on the visible aspects, butbeing something like a single
parent is invisible Often.
For instance, disabilitypeople's disabilities are
(14:13):
invisible.
Someone in the LGBTQ communityyou might not know that about
them.
A lot of my friends will talkabout coming out all of the time
because they're constantlyhaving to come out to people
that they meet.
And it's the same with being asingle parent.
I did a workshop quite a fewyears ago now and I'm very, very
(14:36):
open about being a singleparent Sorry, my dog is trying
to join in.
I kind of consider it to bepart of my brand and it was a
branding workshop.
But very much at Cornferrypeople knew I was single parent.
It was seen as a really goodthing.
I was a senior client partnerand I was a single parent and
(14:56):
that was very much seen as apositive.
People would tell me that theysaw that as a positive.
But when I did this workshopand it was for the civil service
department loads of people cameup to me afterwards and said
they were single parents butthey never told anybody and I
just thought it's reallyinteresting.
They were frightened of beingjudged as not being committed or
(15:21):
not being ambitious.
So yeah, I think it's.
I completely agree with youthat we need to be very mindful
and very broad in our definitionof what diversity is, because
it's not just the obvious things.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Absolutely, it is the unobvious and going deep below
that surface and that skin level.
As you know, I am a parent andyou know, I have to say, it's
been one of the biggest changesas well.
As you know, dealing with griefactually as well this year, but
being a parent, everything thatyou've ever known is thrown out
(16:05):
the window and you becomeanother level of efficient in
terms of prioritising things.
And so when you talk of thefear of being judged which
certainly historically that isthe case in the classic male,
female gender role stereotypeswithin the organisation, but you
(16:30):
know to your point the benefitsand the positives that this
bring, those are skills that arealmost unteachable unless you
have done that.
To be a parent, let alone asingle parent, the levels of
efficiency and the levels ofempathy and being so flexible to
everyone else's needs, I'm surea lot of the time putting
(16:54):
yourself last is.
You know that's one of thebiggest challenges that I think.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, and it's actually so.
I'm studying something calledbeing me therapy.
It's developmental traumatherapy, but just in my third
year final year of that andthat's been one of my big
learnings has about not puttingmyself last, and so that's
something that I've been reallytrying to work on.
(17:19):
For me is you you know theytalk about, you know you can't.
You know in an airplane you'vegot to put your own oxygen mask
on first before you can helpsomeone else.
And I think that, yeah, being asingle parent, but also just my
kind of nature, I'm an oldersister I've been very
(17:42):
responsible, so overly takingresponsibility for things has
been a real yeah.
So actually saying no more hasbeen my challenge to myself for
the past few years, because youcan't, you can't do that forever
.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
That makes entire sense.
And when you have the levels ofpersonal accountability and
professional accountability,that desire to say yes and to
make people happy is very, very,very real.
But subsequently it can, as yousay, have that impact on you.
But because you said you willdo something, you will do it and
(18:27):
you end up in a state of playwhere you're starting yourself
in that oxygen that is sodesperately needed to keep going
at it with rigor and tenacity.
So let's pivot into a book, mel, because I'm so excited.
I've only booked my place inJanuary with bells on, really
(18:50):
excited to join you and some ofthe most leading professionals
in this space celebrating whathas been a real labour of love.
I've followed your posts onLinkedIn as you've been writing,
and you've been doing all ofthis yourself as well, which I
(19:11):
again have done.
A book before myself did havesome support, but oh, my
goodness, it is another job intoitself.
So give us some of the teasers.
What can we expect to see fromJanuary?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, I feel like it's just like everything that I
think about D&I just splurgedinto Into the book.
So the book came about, one.
I have always wanted to write abook always.
I always knew I would.
I always knew it would benonfiction, because I haven't
got a fiction type brain.
(19:44):
I don't think I'm full of aweof people who can write fiction
books because I'm just like howdo they come up with that?
But what happened was I came upwith this idea of an inclusive
team model and it came from myobservation that we focus an
(20:05):
awful lot on individuals.
When we talk about D&I, we talkabout a lot about unconscious
bias or conscious inclusiontraining that's an individual
thinking about themselves.
We talk about inclusive leadersa lot, but that's an individual
as a leader.
So we're kind of putting a lotof heavy on us, on individuals,
but most work happens in teams.
(20:27):
So why aren't we thinking abouthow the team collectively
creates an inclusive environment?
So it came from thisobservation that no one was
really talking about this and Ifelt like it was a gap.
I've done a lot of teamdevelopment in the past and what
I've done is I've kind ofmerged together, thinking on
(20:51):
what it means to be a highperforming team with inclusion,
because I think a lot of highperforming team models were not
necessarily developed in thelast sort of 10 years or so,
which is when D&I, I think, hasreally started to come to the
forefront, and so they were kindof missing inclusion.
So I've kind of broughttogether these two elements and
(21:13):
that really fits with my view ofdiversity and inclusion, which
it should be integrated, that wemake it too separate and
actually we need to integrate itinto our day to day operations
in an organisation, so integratethe two together and then
create this sense of collectiveresponsibility and ownership for
(21:35):
creating, and so it shouldreally be called the inclusive
high performing team.
But it was a bit long.
So we're going with theinclusive team, which is a bit
snappier but it is very much ait's not just focusing on.
There's a very heavy dose ofinclusion throughout all of it,
(21:55):
but it's not just focusing onthat If people work with this
model.
So I've got the model and thebook is about the model.
It's about the differentclusters and sub clusters in the
model and then there's a wholesection on applications.
So facilitation, dealing withresistance, but also then
organisational level.
So there's a really good bookcalled Cascades, by a guy called
(22:20):
Greg Sattel, which I cameacross when I was writing my
book, and he talks aboutcreating a movement and how you
create a movement from havinglots of small groups of people,
you know, aligned to themovement and then connecting
them.
And that's kind of how I lovedthe book, because I thought, yes
, that's what I was thinking aswell.
(22:40):
You have lots of teams so, youknow, you create a more
inclusive environment by workingat a team level, connecting
those teams together andcreating a movement for an
inclusive culture and aninclusive, high performing
culture at that team level.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I'm a mega-cultury geek so I was on the edge of my
seat as you were explaining that.
You could probably tell I'mzooming from the right angle.
But that sounds super excitingand, just picking up on some of
your points there, inclusion isa lot more complex than people
think All of the differentnuances, all of the different
(23:21):
sectionalities that we've beentalking about.
So when you talk about thisintegrated approach and
collective responsibility withaccountability and ownership, it
makes entire sense.
Not only are we observing ahistoric movement over the last
decade and going into the nextdecade where diversity means
different things to differentpeople, but also this
(23:43):
accountability has been quitedisparate.
You and I and those, I'm sure,listening know that often
diversity is focused on anindividual who has that
responsibility in that title,where actually this is something
that needs to be embeddedacross the entire stakeholder
pool, from the board to everyoneacross the C-suite Diverse
(24:04):
procurement right the waythrough to diversity in
marketing and advertising,talent recruitment, so on and so
forth.
And so how you explain this,with not only the desire, the
passion, the key moments thatmatter, the stories, but also
having the diagnostic, the data,the integration with the
approach and having those piecesthat align with one another, it
(24:29):
makes for something which hasreal credibility, weaving all of
those different strandstogether, one of the things that
often frustrates me and I stilloccasionally hear it is when
people say, oh, you know, that'skind of the light and fluffy
stuff and so on and so forth,and you think, well, actually,
how could business ever happenif it was not through the social
(24:52):
connectors, that socialconnectors that can either bring
us together or that can divideus?
And so where you talk aboutthis cascade and coming back to
really a point about the rippleeffect is really deepening those
layers of connective tissue tothen cascade.
(25:12):
Not just the moments of matteryes, of course those moments
matter, but the deeper, longerterm web of sustainable
interventions, yeah, I think it.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
To me it goes down to this idea that inclusion is for
everybody and it's everyone'sresponsibility.
And actually, you know, youcould, you could call this model
something else.
You could call it a highperforming team model.
You know it.
If, if I there's, I thinkthere's an awful lot of fear and
(25:47):
antagonism around D and I,often people feel threatened, it
gets very tempers flare or, youknow, emotional, let's say, and
I guess what I'm trying to dowith this is actually take some
of that out of that and just saythis is a really great way of
(26:10):
us operating as a team.
It's a high performance modeland so much of that is actually
about being inclusive, but it'smaybe not labeled as such.
In this model I said this youknow, there's elements of
(26:32):
intellectual humility,psychological safety, this
growth mindset.
You know there's all sorts ofreally positive things kind of
built in and baked into thismodel and really it's just about
getting the very best from theteam, the collective
intelligence, diversity, andthen, you know, just talk about
diversity of the team, but it'sabout how do you get the best,
(26:53):
and we people often talk aboutthis.
That's really what inclusion is.
It's about getting the bestfrom that diversity and and this
really is just about saying,well, how are the team
collectively responsible forthat?
So that you know that eachchapter of the book talks about
the different cluster there'sfive clusters talks about some
(27:13):
of the neuroscience you know,just a lot of the, some of the
research around, why thesethings are important.
But then there's a sectionwhich talks about, well, as a
team member, how do I make surethat we develop this in the team
?
Then there's a section about asa team leader, how do I make
sure, and a lot of that's aboutreinforcing the right behaviors.
(27:33):
And then there's two exercisesper cluster.
So a team leader, a team member,could pick up this book.
That's the whole point is,anyone would pick up the book
and use it if they wanted asexercises.
They can download and they cando it for themselves.
And then, if they you know,maybe for more D&I professionals
(27:56):
, l&d team professionals, I'mdeveloping an online course that
they can use and then they canaccess a full diagnostic, which
is a, you know, 50 itemdiagnostic that can get a team
report.
So they've got that data toreally help them.
There's a kind of a lightversion as part of the book and
(28:18):
then there's a full, you know,with a full report that helps
people really choose where tofocus, and that online course
will have a whole load moreexercises that people can access
.
So it's kind of a layered levelthing, depending on people's
interest as to how much they getinto it.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I like the layered approach and I like the approach
that says, actually, this isabout high performance.
I think it's easy for people tosay they want to do diversity
and they want to do itcollectively, but actually there
are then the nuances and theefforts required with working
with a diverse team, and it'snot that we can just embed
(29:03):
diversity and then say, hey, doyou know what we are done now?
Because you often end up in aworse place, and so I can see
the absolute critical need forthis and you know, you've made
that business case perfect likethe fact that this is something
that is also highly businesssavvy, highly commercial, makes
sense in terms of highperformance for anyone that
(29:24):
wants to become a better leader,because, as we know, diversity
increases profitability, is alever for economic growth and
prosperity.
Mel, thank you.
I for one am very excited UntilJanuary, when the release of a
party will happen as well.
(29:45):
Before we wrap, I would love todo a couple of little lightning
round questions.
I will give you 30 seconds toanswer each of them.
Hardest one first Equal tosuccess.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I think it's probably two things.
One is having a great tribeboth in and out of work, so
people who are fabulous aroundyou is that's the only way
forward, frankly.
So the other is ever since Idid my first coaching course
(30:20):
where I learned how to coach,which was 20 years ago now, I've
really focused on my ownpersonal development, and I
don't mean just skillsdevelopment, I mean me as a
person.
I've done a lot of development.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
That's where this therapy courses come from as
well, so I think that's reallyhelped me help myself Mel thank
you, and that humility, I think,has clearly been a real secret
to your success, if you don'tmind me saying.
I think how you do that is justand how you articulate it is
(30:55):
really quite beautiful.
And final question If you couldgo back in time and speak to
your much younger self, beforebabies, before career, whilst
you were considering, I guess,the art of the possible in terms
of the future, what might yousay to the young Mel?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I think it would probably be say no more.
And which sounds odd becauseI've taken up a lot of
opportunities, but I thinksometimes I've done that at the
expense of my health.
So yeah, say no more.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I don't mean no more, I mean say no more often.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I think that will resonate with a lot of people.
I've often heard people sayjust say yes, and I think there
is a lot of merit in venturinginto the unknown.
But when you put together whatyou've said with what you've
last said around making sure youlook after yourself and having
(32:09):
that gas mask on not having theemotional bandwidth to be able
to take stock of where you wantto go and the direction
personally you feel is right foryou, makes it very difficult if
you want at times saying no,because sacrifice himself would
be the biggest sacrifice of themall, and I think those are
(32:31):
incredibly wise words, mel.
Thank you ever so much indeed.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Well, all that is left is for me to summarize.
And really, where do I start tosummarize?
Well, it's been an absolute joyspeaking with you.
You have this incrediblecalming therapeutic effect, and
whether this is because you havesuch a wonderful personality,
whether it is also because youhave studied psychology, trauma,
(33:02):
integrated that in leadershipand coaching, I'm not sure, but
it is resulted in a highlyenjoyable experience.
Some of the real key momentsthat I've taken from this and I
hope that many others will aswell is that, mel, don't worry
if you feel you're meanderingwithin the career, because
actually having faith that thepivotal moments have a reason in
(33:23):
the broader spectrum of yourlife and your own personal
progression, having thosedifferent experiences, opening
your mind up to differentgeographies, following love,
following your passions all ofthose absolutely key but also
being very proud of what it isthat you stand for in your own
identity In Mel's case,certainly the invisible
(33:43):
diversities of single parenthood, the challenges and the joys
that they have brought, as wellas the fact that work is a big
key defining piece of the person, and actually that is great.
Utilizing that to then transcendthe experience and really send
the lift back down.
(34:03):
I think it's something that hasreally come to play.
And then, finally, knowing thatdiversity can have a profound
effect on high performance, howcan we utilize this broad
spectrum of collectiveintelligence, team environments,
which often can be quiteemotional, and use that energy
(34:26):
to put into sustainable longterm interventions and plans for
success?
I hope I've captured some ofthe key pieces there, mel.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Absolutely brilliantly done.
I'm amazed that you did that sowell.
That was really good, excellentwork.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Thank you.
My name is Lady McKenzie DellaSummer, founder and CEO of Dark
Global.
You've been listening to thediverse, inclusive leaders
podcast with the fantasticMelody Moore.
Make sure you look out for herbook.
The launches in January.
I've already put myself in thewaiting list to get myself on
some of my buys.
That you do too.
If you've been affected by anyof the issues today, please make
(35:11):
sure that you tell someone, oryou reach out to the team or I
please leave as a recommendation.
We would be so, so grateful.
We've hit over 60,000 downloadsnow on our podcast, which we're
tremendously proud of, and youcan see us on Apple, spotify,
any of your favorite podcastchannels, or visit us directly
at wwwdarlglobalorg forwardslash podcast and we'll look
(35:34):
forward to seeing you very soon.
Hello and welcome to the Diverse and Inclusive
Leaders podcast.
This is the show where I speakwith the most inspirational and
thought-provoking leaders oftoday and unearth their unique
stories of diversity andinclusions, help inspire,
educate and motivate others tomake the world a better place.
Talking of motivation, we'rejoined by the fabulous Melody
(00:30):
Moore, as well as known as Mel.
Mel is insanely curious.
She is a DEI expert, she knowsa huge amount about leadership
and coaching and has over twodecades worth of experience
supporting organizations andleaders in being their best
selves.
She, too, hosts a podcast.
It's called the Secret Resume.
(00:52):
She's author of the Inclusiveteam and we're going to be
talking about her book launch,which is in January 2024.
Mel's background spans workingfor organizations like Cornferry
, the NHS and a number of otherglobal consulting firms, just to
name a few.
Welcome to the show, mel.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Thank you.
I don't think I've ever beendescribed so nicely, so thank
you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Absolutely not true.
I know that you are a bit of asuperhero and known very well to
myself and the team here atDial.
It's really fantastic tofinally have you on the podcast.
Really just to unpick thejourney and talk about how you
came to be where you are today,because it has been a really
(01:46):
impressive learning curvingjourney that you've been on.
So take us back to where it allstarted.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yes, I think what you were trying to say nicely was
been a long journey.
So, yeah, I started.
I did start my career in theNHS and that really came out of
a passion for doing the rightthing.
I think there was a real sense.
I was in my early 20s and Ireally wanted to make a
(02:15):
difference and I think that'sprobably been a theme through my
life is wanted to have animpact and make a difference,
and I think at that time it wasa sense of wanting to make a
difference in the public sectorNHS sense.
But I think over time that'sreally evolved into really
(02:37):
wanting to make a difference topeople and helping people be the
very best version of themselvesand therefore helping
organisations be the bestversion of themselves.
Because I think when you areyoung you start off with that I
(03:01):
want to change the world andit's going to be massive and I
think that actually where I'vecome to is thinking that
actually just making adifference to one person, two
people, three people, has thatmassive ripple effect.
So you have that impact, but itmight be through really
supporting a leader who happensto lead a thousand people and
(03:25):
therefore you actually have animpact on those thousand people.
You just can't see it.
You have to trust that you'redoing it.
So yeah, that's where I started.
Do you want me to tell you abit more about how I got to here
?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I would love that.
And just coming back to one ofyour points there, I really love
how you describe the fact thatthe wider population, society
and organisations are critical.
But you're absolutely right insaying that the impact starts
with the individuals.
If you can have that support,you do so very well through your
(04:03):
mentorship and your coaching toreally support those key
individuals and allow them toelevate the empowerment.
And this ripple effect you talkabout has a profound effect
through the wider roots,branches, leaves of
organisations and thus society.
Yes, tell me about the earlydays.
(04:23):
Having always been this curious, did you expect that the career
path would take this route?
Because, of course, you're anexpert in psychology.
You studied organisationalpsychology at York and
Manchester.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, no, that's the answer.
And I think it's reallyinteresting when you, when I
meet young people who are earlyon in their careers and I always
say that you know, I don't, Idon't think hand on heart that
most people that I've met whoare later in their careers have
followed a particular route.
Lots and lots of people havekind of meandered or taken
(05:03):
advantage of opportunities andabsolutely I had absolutely no
idea, I never even thought ofbeing a consultant, which is
what I've been for the past 20odd years.
But when I started it was verymuch in the NHS.
I then met a man and fell inlove and moved to Canada, which
was kind of a hiatus.
So I was kind of on this careertrajectory in the NHS.
(05:27):
I was at Wales and then I movedto Northwest London and then I
moved to Canada for a couple ofyears.
And that was such a pivotalmoment in my life because for
two reasons.
One was I took a step downcareer-wise and I was working as
someone's EA, basically PA, andbeing somewhere where I didn't
(05:54):
have the career anymore reallymade me realise how important
that was to me.
So I was sort of late twentiesby then.
I really realised that it wasvery a core part of me and my
identity was the work that Ididn't.
It's very important to me.
The other thing was that Iworked for this guy who was so
(06:15):
inspirational.
So at that point I'd done apsychology degree.
I'd hated it.
I really didn't enjoy it at all.
It wasn't what I thought it wasgonna be, was not for me at all
, and I kind of left it aloneand went and worked as a manager
in the NHS, a general manager.
I'd done an HR qualification atthat point.
(06:37):
But I worked for this guy andhe was really, really into
leadership.
He was the operations managerfor 10 ski resorts.
So I lived in a ski resort inCanada, Worcester, and he was
really into leadership.
He had all the books and allthese great magazines like Fast
(06:59):
Company and all these things I'dnever come across before
Harvard Business Review, stufflike that and because I wasn't
particularly busy, if I'm honest, I used to spend time reading
these things and he'd be like ohyou know, Mal, can you review
these things and tell me?
And he had all these books andhe really, really ignited this
love of leadership and Irealized that when I'd been in
(07:23):
the NHS what I'd loved wasdeveloping people.
And so when I came back fromthe, great love became no longer
a great love and I came back tothe UK and that's when I went
and did my masters inoccupational psychology and I
thought this is, I wanna pursue,this idea of people development
.
That's what I realized was areal passion for me.
(07:47):
And then I kind of fell intoconsulting.
I didn't really know whatconsulting was and I kind of
fell into it and have been hereever since.
So that was 2001.
I started working for OPP,which is now the Myers-Briggs
Company, and that was quiteniche occupational psychology.
(08:09):
And then after five years Ithen went to the Hay Group,
which then became Cornfairy, andthat was much broader and that
was fantastic in terms of takingme out of that sort of perhaps
more narrow way of thinking intoreally understanding
organizations and really workingwith a huge range of people who
(08:33):
had a lot of experience of alldifferent aspects of HR and
people consulting.
So, yeah, that's how.
And then, yeah, a year ago,just over a year ago, I decided
to go and do it for myself and Ileft and have set up Liberare
Consulting.
Yeah, just over a year ago, ohyeah, and I'm loving it.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Well, mel, that is some story and huge
congratulations with the successof the business and the
upcoming book that I know we'regonna dive deep into very soon.
But some of the things thatreally stand out is almost these
pivotal inflection moments ofpersonal lives and how they
intersect with the rare.
(09:20):
You mentioned that sometimesthere's this almost meandering
towards and away fromopportunities and, yeah, I think
much is the same for a lot ofsuccessful people.
You know you wonder why or howthat will lead to something
which is bigger.
But when you take a moment tostep back and look at how far
(09:42):
you've come up the mountain, itmakes sense as to why you did
the psychology, why you ended upgoing into uncharted
territories, having thatinternational experience.
But then all feeds into thefact that this is important the
identity of what you do, thesupport and the help for others,
the diversity of the experience, but also bringing together
(10:06):
what is, you know, the personalloves in life, you know, as well
as driving that forward andutilizing that ultimately to
help advise and educate othersultimately.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
It's interesting because I think you're right.
A lot of people you know it'smy podcast.
I said the secret resume.
What I get people to do is lookat those pivotal moments and
often it's, you know, for me itwas when I went off the beaten
track that have been the mostpivotal.
So it's not the you know, it'snot the kind of following rigid
(10:47):
career path.
It is where I've gone and donesomething different.
So the other pivotal moment wasI became a single mum 12 years
ago now, so a long time ago, andthat caused me to make more of
a sideways shift in myconsulting career.
But what that did was reallybroaden my experience.
(11:08):
So I'm really a huge fan ofhaving a breadth of experience
and it gave me some greatopportunity to get into just
understanding some differentthings, such as diagnostics at a
much deeper level, but alsomarketing, and that has then
sort of led me to do so thebooks called the inclusive team.
(11:30):
I've developed a diagnosticbecause I kind of had that
experience of taking thatsideways move.
But what also I think is thatbeing a single parent developed
my love and passion for D&I andthat's really how I got into D&I
, from coming from a sort oflearning and development
(11:53):
coaching background, I then, youknow about five or six years
ago now, really kind of got intogetting involved in D&I and,
like I say, that being a singlemum is probably what really
pushed me into that.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Take my hat off to yourself and to all the single
parents out there.
As much as I admire parents,those who do it alone need to
have another level of expertise,quite frankly, and I just think
(12:33):
it's tremendous doing that andalso juggling with the career
and picking up on perhaps someprovocative points.
Here actually is the wholeconcept and the notion of
diversity, which to me it simplymeans difference.
We've had many a conversationlike this recently when talking
(12:54):
about everyone from clients andindividuals.
Diversity means differentthings to different people, and
the notion that I see a lot inthe press at the moment it gives
me deep, unsettled concernsthat we have a perception of
what diversity means and that itis almost one faceted or one
(13:19):
dimensional.
For us to believe that it ispurely about race or gender or
sexuality, for example, seemssuch a naive thing, given the
fact that the world is moving soquickly and actually, unless
we're asking these questions, wewould never know that you are a
parent, let alone a singleparent, who has experienced many
(13:42):
other things throughout life.
Yeah take on that and thisevolution of diversity, because
it can be quite polarising attimes.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Definitely, and I think what's interesting is this
sense that it's.
A lot of diversity is notvisible and we tend to focus in
on the visible aspects, butbeing something like a single
parent is invisible Often.
For instance, disabilitypeople's disabilities are
(14:13):
invisible.
Someone in the LGBTQ communityyou might not know that about
them.
A lot of my friends will talkabout coming out all of the time
because they're constantlyhaving to come out to people
that they meet.
And it's the same with being asingle parent.
I did a workshop quite a fewyears ago now and I'm very, very
(14:36):
open about being a singleparent Sorry, my dog is trying
to join in.
I kind of consider it to bepart of my brand and it was a
branding workshop.
But very much at Cornferrypeople knew I was single parent.
It was seen as a really goodthing.
I was a senior client partnerand I was a single parent and
(14:56):
that was very much seen as apositive.
People would tell me that theysaw that as a positive.
But when I did this workshopand it was for the civil service
department loads of people cameup to me afterwards and said
they were single parents butthey never told anybody and I
just thought it's reallyinteresting.
They were frightened of beingjudged as not being committed or
(15:21):
not being ambitious.
So yeah, I think it's.
I completely agree with youthat we need to be very mindful
and very broad in our definitionof what diversity is, because
it's not just the obvious things.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Absolutely, it is the unobvious and going deep below
that surface and that skin level.
As you know, I am a parent andyou know, I have to say, it's
been one of the biggest changesas well.
As you know, dealing with griefactually as well this year, but
being a parent, everything thatyou've ever known is thrown out
(16:05):
the window and you becomeanother level of efficient in
terms of prioritising things.
And so when you talk of thefear of being judged which
certainly historically that isthe case in the classic male,
female gender role stereotypeswithin the organisation, but you
(16:30):
know to your point the benefitsand the positives that this
bring, those are skills that arealmost unteachable unless you
have done that.
To be a parent, let alone asingle parent, the levels of
efficiency and the levels ofempathy and being so flexible to
everyone else's needs, I'm surea lot of the time putting
(16:54):
yourself last is.
You know that's one of thebiggest challenges that I think.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, and it's actually so.
I'm studying something calledbeing me therapy.
It's developmental traumatherapy, but just in my third
year final year of that andthat's been one of my big
learnings has about not puttingmyself last, and so that's
something that I've been reallytrying to work on.
(17:19):
For me is you you know theytalk about, you know you can't.
You know in an airplane you'vegot to put your own oxygen mask
on first before you can helpsomeone else.
And I think that, yeah, being asingle parent, but also just my
kind of nature, I'm an oldersister I've been very
(17:42):
responsible, so overly takingresponsibility for things has
been a real yeah.
So actually saying no more hasbeen my challenge to myself for
the past few years, because youcan't, you can't do that forever
.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
That makes entire sense.
And when you have the levels ofpersonal accountability and
professional accountability,that desire to say yes and to
make people happy is very, very,very real.
But subsequently it can, as yousay, have that impact on you.
But because you said you willdo something, you will do it and
(18:27):
you end up in a state of playwhere you're starting yourself
in that oxygen that is sodesperately needed to keep going
at it with rigor and tenacity.
So let's pivot into a book, mel, because I'm so excited.
I've only booked my place inJanuary with bells on, really
(18:50):
excited to join you and some ofthe most leading professionals
in this space celebrating whathas been a real labour of love.
I've followed your posts onLinkedIn as you've been writing,
and you've been doing all ofthis yourself as well, which I
(19:11):
again have done.
A book before myself did havesome support, but oh, my
goodness, it is another job intoitself.
So give us some of the teasers.
What can we expect to see fromJanuary?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, I feel like it's just like everything that I
think about D&I just splurgedinto Into the book.
So the book came about, one.
I have always wanted to write abook always.
I always knew I would.
I always knew it would benonfiction, because I haven't
got a fiction type brain.
(19:44):
I don't think I'm full of aweof people who can write fiction
books because I'm just like howdo they come up with that?
But what happened was I came upwith this idea of an inclusive
team model and it came from myobservation that we focus an
(20:05):
awful lot on individuals.
When we talk about D&I, we talkabout a lot about unconscious
bias or conscious inclusiontraining that's an individual
thinking about themselves.
We talk about inclusive leadersa lot, but that's an individual
as a leader.
So we're kind of putting a lotof heavy on us, on individuals,
but most work happens in teams.
(20:27):
So why aren't we thinking abouthow the team collectively
creates an inclusive environment?
So it came from thisobservation that no one was
really talking about this and Ifelt like it was a gap.
I've done a lot of teamdevelopment in the past and what
I've done is I've kind ofmerged together, thinking on
(20:51):
what it means to be a highperforming team with inclusion,
because I think a lot of highperforming team models were not
necessarily developed in thelast sort of 10 years or so,
which is when D&I, I think, hasreally started to come to the
forefront, and so they were kindof missing inclusion.
So I've kind of broughttogether these two elements and
(21:13):
that really fits with my view ofdiversity and inclusion, which
it should be integrated, that wemake it too separate and
actually we need to integrate itinto our day to day operations
in an organisation, so integratethe two together and then
create this sense of collectiveresponsibility and ownership for
(21:35):
creating, and so it shouldreally be called the inclusive
high performing team.
But it was a bit long.
So we're going with theinclusive team, which is a bit
snappier but it is very much ait's not just focusing on.
There's a very heavy dose ofinclusion throughout all of it,
(21:55):
but it's not just focusing onthat If people work with this
model.
So I've got the model and thebook is about the model.
It's about the differentclusters and sub clusters in the
model and then there's a wholesection on applications.
So facilitation, dealing withresistance, but also then
organisational level.
So there's a really good bookcalled Cascades, by a guy called
(22:20):
Greg Sattel, which I cameacross when I was writing my
book, and he talks aboutcreating a movement and how you
create a movement from havinglots of small groups of people,
you know, aligned to themovement and then connecting
them.
And that's kind of how I lovedthe book, because I thought, yes
, that's what I was thinking aswell.
(22:40):
You have lots of teams so, youknow, you create a more
inclusive environment by workingat a team level, connecting
those teams together andcreating a movement for an
inclusive culture and aninclusive, high performing
culture at that team level.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I'm a mega-cultury geek so I was on the edge of my
seat as you were explaining that.
You could probably tell I'mzooming from the right angle.
But that sounds super excitingand, just picking up on some of
your points there, inclusion isa lot more complex than people
think All of the differentnuances, all of the different
(23:21):
sectionalities that we've beentalking about.
So when you talk about thisintegrated approach and
collective responsibility withaccountability and ownership, it
makes entire sense.
Not only are we observing ahistoric movement over the last
decade and going into the nextdecade where diversity means
different things to differentpeople, but also this
(23:43):
accountability has been quitedisparate.
You and I and those, I'm sure,listening know that often
diversity is focused on anindividual who has that
responsibility in that title,where actually this is something
that needs to be embeddedacross the entire stakeholder
pool, from the board to everyoneacross the C-suite Diverse
(24:04):
procurement right the waythrough to diversity in
marketing and advertising,talent recruitment, so on and so
forth.
And so how you explain this,with not only the desire, the
passion, the key moments thatmatter, the stories, but also
having the diagnostic, the data,the integration with the
approach and having those piecesthat align with one another, it
(24:29):
makes for something which hasreal credibility, weaving all of
those different strandstogether, one of the things that
often frustrates me and I stilloccasionally hear it is when
people say, oh, you know, that'skind of the light and fluffy
stuff and so on and so forth,and you think, well, actually,
how could business ever happenif it was not through the social
(24:52):
connectors, that socialconnectors that can either bring
us together or that can divideus?
And so where you talk aboutthis cascade and coming back to
really a point about the rippleeffect is really deepening those
layers of connective tissue tothen cascade.
(25:12):
Not just the moments of matteryes, of course those moments
matter, but the deeper, longerterm web of sustainable
interventions, yeah, I think it.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
To me it goes down to this idea that inclusion is for
everybody and it's everyone'sresponsibility.
And actually, you know, youcould, you could call this model
something else.
You could call it a highperforming team model.
You know it.
If, if I there's, I thinkthere's an awful lot of fear and
(25:47):
antagonism around D and I,often people feel threatened, it
gets very tempers flare or, youknow, emotional, let's say, and
I guess what I'm trying to dowith this is actually take some
of that out of that and just saythis is a really great way of
(26:10):
us operating as a team.
It's a high performance modeland so much of that is actually
about being inclusive, but it'smaybe not labeled as such.
In this model I said this youknow, there's elements of
(26:32):
intellectual humility,psychological safety, this
growth mindset.
You know there's all sorts ofreally positive things kind of
built in and baked into thismodel and really it's just about
getting the very best from theteam, the collective
intelligence, diversity, andthen, you know, just talk about
diversity of the team, but it'sabout how do you get the best,
(26:53):
and we people often talk aboutthis.
That's really what inclusion is.
It's about getting the bestfrom that diversity and and this
really is just about saying,well, how are the team
collectively responsible forthat?
So that you know that eachchapter of the book talks about
the different cluster there'sfive clusters talks about some
(27:13):
of the neuroscience you know,just a lot of the, some of the
research around, why thesethings are important.
But then there's a sectionwhich talks about, well, as a
team member, how do I make surethat we develop this in the team
?
Then there's a section about asa team leader, how do I make
sure, and a lot of that's aboutreinforcing the right behaviors.
(27:33):
And then there's two exercisesper cluster.
So a team leader, a team member,could pick up this book.
That's the whole point is,anyone would pick up the book
and use it if they wanted asexercises.
They can download and they cando it for themselves.
And then, if they you know,maybe for more D&I professionals
(27:56):
, l&d team professionals, I'mdeveloping an online course that
they can use and then they canaccess a full diagnostic, which
is a, you know, 50 itemdiagnostic that can get a team
report.
So they've got that data toreally help them.
There's a kind of a lightversion as part of the book and
(28:18):
then there's a full, you know,with a full report that helps
people really choose where tofocus, and that online course
will have a whole load moreexercises that people can access
.
So it's kind of a layered levelthing, depending on people's
interest as to how much they getinto it.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
I like the layered approach and I like the approach
that says, actually, this isabout high performance.
I think it's easy for people tosay they want to do diversity
and they want to do itcollectively, but actually there
are then the nuances and theefforts required with working
with a diverse team, and it'snot that we can just embed
(29:03):
diversity and then say, hey, doyou know what we are done now?
Because you often end up in aworse place, and so I can see
the absolute critical need forthis and you know, you've made
that business case perfect likethe fact that this is something
that is also highly businesssavvy, highly commercial, makes
sense in terms of highperformance for anyone that
(29:24):
wants to become a better leader,because, as we know, diversity
increases profitability, is alever for economic growth and
prosperity.
Mel, thank you.
I for one am very excited UntilJanuary, when the release of a
party will happen as well.
(29:45):
Before we wrap, I would love todo a couple of little lightning
round questions.
I will give you 30 seconds toanswer each of them.
Hardest one first Equal tosuccess.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I think it's probably two things.
One is having a great tribeboth in and out of work, so
people who are fabulous aroundyou is that's the only way
forward, frankly.
So the other is ever since Idid my first coaching course
(30:20):
where I learned how to coach,which was 20 years ago now, I've
really focused on my ownpersonal development, and I
don't mean just skillsdevelopment, I mean me as a
person.
I've done a lot of development.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
That's where this therapy courses come from as
well, so I think that's reallyhelped me help myself Mel thank
you, and that humility, I think,has clearly been a real secret
to your success, if you don'tmind me saying.
I think how you do that is justand how you articulate it is
(30:55):
really quite beautiful.
And final question If you couldgo back in time and speak to
your much younger self, beforebabies, before career, whilst
you were considering, I guess,the art of the possible in terms
of the future, what might yousay to the young Mel?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
I think it would probably be say no more.
And which sounds odd becauseI've taken up a lot of
opportunities, but I thinksometimes I've done that at the
expense of my health.
So yeah, say no more.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I don't mean no more, I mean say no more often.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
I think that will resonate with a lot of people.
I've often heard people sayjust say yes, and I think there
is a lot of merit in venturinginto the unknown.
But when you put together whatyou've said with what you've
last said around making sure youlook after yourself and having
(32:09):
that gas mask on not having theemotional bandwidth to be able
to take stock of where you wantto go and the direction
personally you feel is right foryou, makes it very difficult if
you want at times saying no,because sacrifice himself would
be the biggest sacrifice of themall, and I think those are
(32:31):
incredibly wise words, mel.
Thank you ever so much indeed.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
Well, all that is left is for me to summarize.
And really, where do I start tosummarize?
Well, it's been an absolute joyspeaking with you.
You have this incrediblecalming therapeutic effect, and
whether this is because you havesuch a wonderful personality,
whether it is also because youhave studied psychology, trauma,
(33:02):
integrated that in leadershipand coaching, I'm not sure, but
it is resulted in a highlyenjoyable experience.
Some of the real key momentsthat I've taken from this and I
hope that many others will aswell is that, mel, don't worry
if you feel you're meanderingwithin the career, because
actually having faith that thepivotal moments have a reason in
(33:23):
the broader spectrum of yourlife and your own personal
progression, having thosedifferent experiences, opening
your mind up to differentgeographies, following love,
following your passions all ofthose absolutely key but also
being very proud of what it isthat you stand for in your own
identity In Mel's case,certainly the invisible
(33:43):
diversities of single parenthood, the challenges and the joys
that they have brought, as wellas the fact that work is a big
key defining piece of the person, and actually that is great.
Utilizing that to then transcendthe experience and really send
the lift back down.
(34:03):
I think it's something that hasreally come to play.
And then, finally, knowing thatdiversity can have a profound
effect on high performance, howcan we utilize this broad
spectrum of collectiveintelligence, team environments,
which often can be quiteemotional, and use that energy
(34:26):
to put into sustainable longterm interventions and plans for
success?
I hope I've captured some ofthe key pieces there, mel.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Absolutely brilliantly done.
I'm amazed that you did that sowell.
That was really good, excellentwork.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Thank you.
My name is Lady McKenzie DellaSummer, founder and CEO of Dark
Global.
You've been listening to thediverse, inclusive leaders
podcast with the fantasticMelody Moore.
Make sure you look out for herbook.
The launches in January.
I've already put myself in thewaiting list to get myself on
some of my buys.
That you do too.
If you've been affected by anyof the issues today, please make
(35:11):
sure that you tell someone, oryou reach out to the team or I
please leave as a recommendation.
We would be so, so grateful.
We've hit over 60,000 downloadsnow on our podcast, which we're
tremendously proud of, and youcan see us on Apple, spotify,
any of your favorite podcastchannels, or visit us directly
at wwwdarlglobalorg forwardslash podcast and we'll look
(35:34):
forward to seeing you very soon.
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