February 15, 2024 • 43 mins
From the remnants of a war-torn Lebanon to the zenith of entrepreneurship, Tony Jamous shares the odyssey that led him to champion the remote work revolution with Oyster, a beacon for global job democratization. His tale is one of triumph over personal and professional battles, a testament to the resilience that forges not just successful business leaders, but pioneers of social change. We explore how Tony's dedication to mental health, personal growth, and societal impact intertwines with his business acumen to create opportunities that bridge economic divides and foster wealth equality across borders.
Venture with us as we unravel the fabric of mission-driven businesses, where profit meets purpose, and where the prosperity of people is as valued as the bottom line. Tony's insights illuminate the solitary nature of entrepreneurship and the challenges that come with fundraising and scaling a business. Yet, amidst these hurdles, we uncover the power of diversity, the importance of nurturing real-world role models, and the pivotal moments that define the trajectory of a venture.
Our conversation culminates in a vision for the future—one where sustainable leadership is the cornerstone of both mental well-being and environmental stewardship. Tony's perspective on rapid decision-making, impactful investments, and the cultivation of social capital paints a picture of a world where opportunities are no longer bound by geography. Join us for an inspiring narrative that challenges the conventional, promising a tomorrow where businesses not only thrive but also contribute to a more equitable and flourishing global community.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, my name is Layla McKenzie-Dellis, Founder
and CEO of Dialglobal, and youare watching the CEO Activist
podcast.
We decided to start thispodcast because we wanted to do
something really special andreally unique and something that
involved the modern CEO Beforethinking innovative CEO of the
(00:23):
current day times that reallycares about putting the S in ESG
and utilising diversity as acommercial lever with which to
drive change for economic growthand long-term prosperity.
Stay tuned, because we have gotsome epic guests on the show
(00:49):
Today.
I am joined by someone that canonly be described as a truly
phenomenal individualentrepreneur, ceo, founder.
He's famously known as thesustainable CEO.
Yes, it is Tony Gemos.
(01:11):
He's famous for talking abouteverything from sustainability
through to hybrid work, thefuture of work and what that
truly means in a volatile anduncertain world, one in which we
live in.
Welcome to the show, tony.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Layla, thank you for having me here.
I'm excited to talk to youtoday.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Thank you so much.
I've been excited about thisfor many weeks.
I'm very bad at poking, so I'mclearly showing my enthusiasm to
everyone here.
Freddie very kindly intro'd usand said if you want someone
inspiration, tony is your man.
Tell us, in your own words, alittle bit of about how you came
(01:58):
to be where you are today.
Obviously, any entrepreneurdreams of being a unicorn, least
of all being one who has doneit twice and now, obviously,
being CEO of Oyster.
Talk to us about the journey.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I would love to talk about the journey, but before,
as a sustainable human being, Ihave to get my dog my push out.
He's trying to push the doorthere and actually the bonus
everybody to see Fatouche.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
He is absolutely gorgeous.
He's absolutely gorgeous.
We have three called Maud,blanche and Daphne.
What breed is he?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Because I have a King Charles.
Oh he's a King Charles.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
He's a very funny one .
Speaker 2 (02:50):
He needs to go out.
Give me back in five minutes.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You've been upstage.
Tony now by your dog.
He's very lovely and I'm sureeveryone's wanting to hear much
more about him as well.
But anyway, let's go back towhere we were.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I got back to the journey.
I got back to the journey.
But when I say my gardener thismorning admitted to me that
he's been taking pictures withFatouche and it made him famous
on TikTok, so he's a star dog.
Anyway, let's talk about thejourney here.
So I was born in Lebanon in1980, in the middle of the Civil
(03:34):
War.
I spent the first 10 years ofmy life in that environment and
then, the moment I had thechance to leave because it was a
failed state, post-war country,no economical opportunity I
left.
I was 17.
I left a friend and studiedcomputer science.
Eventually I moved to London.
(03:57):
I started working in the telecomindustry a few years later and
13 years ago I started my firsttechnology startup from San
Francisco called Nexmo.
That was an API business thatwent 200 million or 30 million
in the first five years Look atpublic in mid-2016 by doing a
(04:17):
reverse merger with Vonage, acompany public at that time.
That led eventually to theiracquisition by Ericsson for a
$6.5 billion.
So I left the business.
I decided I want to take sometime off, focus on my well-being
, on my mental health.
Coming from a childhood growingin a war situation has
(04:43):
developed in me hypersensitivity, post-traumatic stress disorder
, hyper-stress response, fearresponse that I was really
committed to solve during a yearand a half, took a year and a
half off, and I did a lot ofwork personal work, growth work
(05:05):
and that work led me to decidethat I want to put my effort and
my skills into buildingsomething meaningful, something
that I believe in, and that ledme to Oyster.
So Oyster is global employmentplatform that is a
mission-driven company.
First and foremost, it is on amission to make the world more
(05:28):
free and equal by democratizingaccess to global job
opportunities, and I got to thatrealization in January.
So I started the business inJanuary 2020 and I got the
realization in day 2019 that Iwant to make sure that people
(05:51):
like me don't have to leavetheir countries, don't have to
leave their tribes, theircommunities, just for a better
job opportunity.
And, if you think about it,brain drain is the biggest issue
why emerging economies remainemerging.
Just to give you some datapoints about the opportunity
there are 85 million jobs goingunfulfilled in the West,
(06:15):
according to BCG.
That's $8.5 trillion economicloss.
That's two times the size ofGermany economy.
And at the same time, you haveover a billion knowledge workers
coming into the workforce inthe next 10 years, mostly from
memory economies.
So it was clear to me that aplatform like Oyster, using
software to make global hiringas easy as local hiring, can not
(06:37):
only be a successful venture,but can also deliver impact in
areas of wealth and equalityreduction brain reduction.
So, armed with that vision andthis impact mindset January 2020
, I started Oyster.
Then remote work became areality, much faster than we
thought it's going to become.
Actually, we were expecting itto accelerate, but it
(07:01):
accelerated 50x faster in 2020.
And so we knew that we had togo fast.
So we built an amazing companyin a short period of time.
Oyster today is around 600people distributed in 80
countries, from over 100nationalities, gender equal and
(07:24):
really a true mission-drivencompany.
We are a benefit corporation,we are the only B Corp in our
category and we raised that $220million in three years, grew
faster than Google in the firstyear, grew faster than Slack in
the first three years, and justcan't be more grateful to be
(07:48):
doing what I'm doing.
Align was my purpose andsurrounded with people from all
over the world coming to buildsomething that, ultimately, is
not really comfortable for me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Wow, for those that know me, I'm really lost words,
but I almost don't know what tosay.
First, tony, I take my hat offto you from coming from Lebanon,
in a place that is ultimately awar zone, coming from such
(08:27):
adversity to building somethingthat not only has created a
tremendous amount of jobs andopportunity but is also
supporting levelling the playingfield, which is absolutely
critical.
And something that I observewith founders is the deep
(08:48):
interconnected tissue that theyhave with their childhood and
how they've grown up through tothen being able to self-identify
aspects of mental health andmeaning and purpose.
It's just absolutely phenomenal.
And where you talk about thischange in the workplace over the
(09:14):
last decade and certainly youknow we'll be seeing this for
the next decade as well it'sclear that you're utilizing
diversity and equity andsustainability as commercial
levers for economic growth,prosperity and success.
One thing that I was thinkingas you were speaking is that
(09:38):
talent really truly iseverywhere.
The numbers that you quoted areoff the Richter scale, and it's
sad to know that, even thoughtalent is everywhere,
opportunity is not, and so to beable to, with platforms like
(10:02):
Oyster, to deliver this impactat scale and to grow faster than
Google, I mean, oh my God, youcan say, that is another level.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Look, we hire 80% of people at Oyster from emerging
economies.
It's a forcing function fromthe top.
It's been great.
For us, one of our core valuesis elevating talent and it works
well here internally to elevatetalent from emerging economies
to participate and access theseamazing job opportunities we
have here in the West.
But that's only Oyster.
(10:37):
We support over 1000 customersaround the world to do the same.
We have seen the ratio ofemerging economies hiring from
20% to 30% in the last 18 monthson our platform and we are on
track of sending a billiondollar of foreign bank
investment into emergingeconomies per year from 2025 and
(11:02):
beyond, and that leads us toour success.
By the way, we're not doing itjust because it's nice or
because it's aligned with theeconomy.
We draw a lot of intelligenceand strategy in making sure
being mission driven drivesfinancial results.
So an example we position ourproduct not only to be scalable
(11:26):
from an HR compliance standpointso our customer can hire anyone
anywhere and look at the worldas one country, but also because
we make them talent competitive.
We give them tools and theinsight to treat Mary and Athens
fairly and give her a greatemployment contract to make sure
Mohammed Morocco get the healthbenefit he deserves and to make
(11:46):
sure Valentina and Argentinacan get equity and participate
in the upside of the business,and that's what our customer
want.
The way we are positioningOyster to use our mission and
connect with the hearts andminds of our customer and their
employees around the world isthe soul of this company and
(12:06):
what makes us financiallysuccessful.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I love that you pulled the hearts and minds
piece there, because I'm such abeliever that you cannot have
prosperity and commercialsuccess without winning the
hearts and the minds of the many.
And clearly you're fantastic atstorytelling through meaning
(12:32):
and value, but also having theinterventions through data and
research that also have thatimpact.
I've seen too many people andorganisations over time get so
incredibly focused on data thatthey then forgot the human
aspects.
Likewise, at the other end ofthe scale, we see so many
(12:56):
stories and polarizingviewpoints in the media with
governments, with worldmicro-micro issues, that
actually we have to be able tocut through that and look at the
real facts and figures and thedata behind those so that we can
work out what that means andwhat a path is for.
And so I think what you'vedescribed so very beautifully
(13:18):
there is how, transcending thosetwo worlds of the data, the
value, all of the intrinsics,plus the hearts, the minds, the
meaning and why we exist toserve, bringing them together,
create something exceptionally,exceptionally special.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, and it's also because we're doing this to role
model.
We want to show that beingemission driven returns better
return for investors andentrepreneurs who take this path
.
This path of being emissionarycan succeed widely more than if
(13:59):
they don't.
That's, for me, is critical,especially at the world is face
increasingly with challengessuch as environmental challenges
, mental health challenges,economical challenges that we
actually demonstrate that goingand addressing these challenges
(14:22):
in the world is a great businessopportunity.
Like, you don't have to gobuild a social network that
makes people addicted to besuccessful, you don't have to
build an e-commerce conglomerate.
That is about making you makeimpulse purchase with one click,
by button, to be successful inthe world.
(14:43):
Like, you don't have to playthat game.
You can play a different game,a more powerful game.
Actually, simon Sinek calls itthe infinite game in his latest
book.
It is about having a just cause.
It's about a building greatorganization.
It's about being the otherexperiment and this is what
drives long-term success.
(15:04):
And we want Oyster to be a rolemodel for other entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And that's it absolutely.
It is the business and theindividual in yourself.
It is entrepreneurs that makethese businesses successful.
I was speaking to someonerecently explaining that with
corporate organizations and lookour.
I adore corporate organizations.
They are predominantly ourcustomer, but ultimately the
(15:34):
corporate words that are spokenneed to be turned into
sustainable actions.
And actually investing inentrepreneurs, investing in
innovative businesses, is theway forward, because you're
practicing what you preach,you're putting your money where
your mouth is.
Smes and other growingenterprises makeup, certainly in
(15:54):
the UK, the vast amount of theeconomy, and so if organizations
are not investing in thosebusinesses, investing in those
people, investing in thatdiversity, they are not ever
going to get the innovation thatis needed.
And it makes me sad when I seeentrepreneurs and it's been
challenging at times for myselfeven raising so when I hear that
(16:17):
you've raised these phenomenalamounts of money, I just think
it's incredible.
We raised just over half amillion for 10% in the business
a year and a half ago and thatwas like another job in and to
itself.
I think the worlds of thosestartups, those entrepreneurs,
is so far at times, I think,removed from the land and the
(16:38):
world of the corporate that Iwant so much in podcasts like
this to showcase and shine alight on how much skills there
are there, because the tenacityto get stuff like that done and
put the foot to the metal it ishard those special, special
people and to a point you talkabout role models, often at dial
(17:01):
.
We call these real modelsbecause, like yourself, you have
lived it, you've breathed it,you've slept it.
Your blood, your sweat, yourtears have gone into building
that business and to learn onthe job.
Essentially, it's just crazy,it's incredible, incredible.
(17:24):
I got to ask, if you don't mind,tony, and partly for myself and
all the other people there thatare already being inspired by
this podcast, what were some ofthose inflection points that
allowed you to make thebusinesses that you've had and
invested in a success?
Because a big part ofentrepreneurship is lonely.
You spend such a lot of time inyour head in your office, awake
(17:48):
at night, thinking about whatto do and no one gives you a
book that says this is what youdo to grow.
These are the people you needto reach out to, network, work
with and those kind of things.
What are some of the inflectionpoints, the things that you
learn, because obviously you'vegone from here to here.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
The first thing I've learned is a critical importance
of having the best teampossible and develop an
environment in which they can beultra successful and
collaborative.
This is my second company andwhen I started this company, the
(18:33):
first person I hired was anexecutive search consultant who
was running the largestexecutive search firm in Europe
in technology, and we sat downand we developed a talent
strategy who should be in myC-suite in my executive team?
How are they going tocollaborate together?
(18:55):
What profiles?
How do you maximize diversityin that team?
And we went and executed onthat.
We've hired over 10 executivesthrough this thorough executive
search process based on thestrategy, and each hire we make
is an inflection point in thebusiness, because they comment
(19:18):
and they take whatever theirfunction is to the next level,
and so that gets me reallyexcited when I see a new leader
joining me on this path andgiving them the empowerment and
the platform for them to growand shine.
It takes us with them, and Ihave numerous examples of that.
(19:43):
But if you think about moreeconomical inflection points, it
was the pandemic.
We started this business inJanuary 2020.
We raised our seed rounds inFebruary.
The moment the money hit thebank account, we went into
lockdown and that was the lastinvestor I met in person at
Oyster was my seed investorbefore they invested.
Everybody else I met them afterthey invested.
(20:03):
And that inflection pointbecause that was a launchpad for
the business we had to go fast.
We were overwhelmed withcustomer demand and we had to be
visible quickly.
And the second inflection pointis the market macroeconomical
(20:29):
challenge.
That happened started two yearsago with inflation.
So we were this company hasraised a lot of money, growing
really fast, depending on theemployment markets, and suddenly
interest rate went up and wewere forced to go as fast as
possible to be an efficientcompany.
(20:50):
And that totally transformedour leadership style and our
goals.
And we you know, two yearslater we're editing in a much
better position than we entered.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So and it is an inflection point.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
It is absolutely an inflection point because we
depend on the capitalisticsystem to grow and I believe
mission-driven companies arecompanies that are successful,
have to use the system, has touse all the possible tools that
are provided by the system togrow and deliver on the mission.
And luckily, in that period oftime, the percentage of
(21:28):
employees we have on theplatform in emerging economies
went up 35% Because they need tofind talent in a more
cost-effective location wherecustomers meant that they need
to venture beyond their offices.
So that has helped us as wellin that regards.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And I guess it also then had the residual effect of
diversifying the talent, goingto cost-efficient or less in a
Western world place.
It's also diversifying thetalent, increasing the
innovation.
What I'm getting fromeverything that you said there
is that business growth andsuccess is made up of numerous
(22:11):
inflection points.
Everything is an inflectionpoint.
It seems to me that you'vereally capitalised on the
opportunities of each of theinflection points to not only
number one start with the talentand the skills and upping the
gene pool of the experience thatyou have within the business
but also how you have navigatedso very quickly through speed of
(22:36):
decision-making andefficiencies.
And it's interesting because Ithink that, coming back to some
of our earlier points, is reallywhere fast growth in office
businesses can really teachlarge organisations how to move
at pace.
When you are an entrepreneurand you're working in an
environment that is so dependenton many different factors, you
(22:58):
absolutely have to have nochoice but to make decisions,
make them quickly, mobilisepeople, influence people quickly
and often change the course ata rate of knots, certainly in
comparison to large kind oforganisational structures or
(23:21):
corporate businesses.
Tony, I feel like this is abrilliant podcast because it
actually feels to me like I'mlearning so much very, very
selfishly, but I know all of ourlisteners will be getting a lot
from this podcast too.
I would be completely remiss ifI didn't ask what the future
(23:41):
holds, not only for youpersonally.
But where do you see some ofthe trends, not only in human
capital, but economic growth,also from a macro point of view,
because we're obviously seeinglots and lots of world issues
going on, which, of course,impacts businesses and the
people and the talent withinthem.
So talk to me about the future,tony.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I'd like to imagine a future where the opportunity is
distributed around the worldand not concentrated in
expensive, rich places in theWest.
I'd like to see the futurewhere organisations employ
people from anywhere.
(24:24):
They look at the world as theiroyster and not as different
countries with differentregulations.
I'd like to see the futurewhere work is more meaningful
and more sustainable.
(24:47):
I'd like to see moremission-driven companies making
sure that they are buildingbusinesses that do no harm and
some of them add additionalvalue, positive impact for this
world.
And the future is going to beremote for sure.
(25:08):
Remote is critical to enablethat change.
If you want to distribute thewealth around the world, you
need to enable remote work,because remote work means that
Muhammad in Nigeria doesn't haveto leave London and he can earn
(25:31):
five times more what he'searning today in Nigeria and get
that money into the Nigerianeconomy.
So Nigeria does not have enoughhard currency coming into their
economy, so their interest ratewhen they want to go and raise
money in government bonds is not15%, but it's more closer to 2%
(25:54):
.
What European countries haveeven 0% negative interest rate?
Why in Europe and in the US andmany of these developed nations
, we have great infrastructure,great schools, great health
system, because we can borrowmoney at 0%, while Nigeria is at
(26:17):
15%.
This is where the inequality is.
So I believe global hiring andpower by remote work is critical
to unlock or distribute wealthon this planet.
And once you make people feelthat they are worthy to be here
(26:38):
on this planet and not haveproblems and have nuts, then I
believe everything else willcome in place.
We will have less wars, we willhave less anxiety from work, we
will have less competition,hopefully, I mean this is a
vision I'd like to see for thefuture.
It might not happen, but I dobelieve that it's needed.
(27:02):
It's needed to go in thatdirection because, if you think
about it, it's only in the last200 years that these trends of
industrialization and capitalismhave accelerated and they've
made a lot of positive impact.
Today, even if you are in aless developed country, you
(27:25):
don't have to die with a painfrom your tooth right.
But it also created sideeffects in terms of inequality,
and social media is exaggeratingthat right now.
You cannot hide in your 19thcentury mention and, friends,
nobody see your wealth right,everything is exposed right now.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
You've brought up some incredibly pertinent points
there, and just on your lastone, you're absolutely right
when you talk about people notbeing able to hide in their
mansions.
There is this worldwide digitalculture of transparency, for
good and for bad.
You mentioned social media thatanyone can take to Twitter or X
(28:08):
as it is Sorry no and say whatthey think, or create negative,
positive narratives.
Say what they think of leaders.
There is so much moreaccessibility when it comes to
things like that.
Like you, I'm a true believerthat long gone are the days of
the white ivory toweredhierarchical glass offices in
(28:35):
the corner of a workplace whereno one dare speak to the CEO.
Now more than ever, ceos arerequired to be activist CEOs.
They are required to be muchmore things to many more people,
both in broader society butalso in the business.
And you talked aboutgenerations and things like this
(28:56):
before.
I think a good portion of thattrend rightly so is because of
these generations within theworkplace.
We have more generations now inthe workplace than we ever have
seen in a lifetime, and thesegenerations will not stand for
anything else.
And then all of these differentplatforms and social media
(29:19):
platforms that allow thatfreedom of speech, force CEOs
and leaders to really take noteof other social aspects.
And I guess, also just pickingup on one of the other points
that you made around Belonging,you know, making people feel
(29:41):
that they belong.
I think it's such a pertinentpoint because that belonging, it
goes to the very heart of ourDNA as human beings.
I'm sure we can all remember atime I certainly can where I've
walked into a room and I feltthat I was not Deserving to use
your word of being there.
And you know, I think a lot ofthat is exaggerated by, you know
(30:02):
, this systemic.
You know you know educationsystems, things like that, you
know.
You know I used to work inexact search and I noticed that
the higher up the classicalcorporate hierarchy you go, the
less and less people I see that,you know, looking sound like
yourself or looking sound likeme.
Despite getting a first-classhonors degree, I couldn't get a
job in any of the corporates andso I spun out and you know I
(30:24):
did my own thing and so you knowI really loved it or so, behind
mission-driven organizationsand Entrepreneurships.
And it also sustainableinvesting that you mentioned I
would love To pick up on.
Is that it's sustainableinvesting piece.
I think you've just done it.
You know textbook perfect.
(30:47):
You know Getting investmentinto businesses that are
meaningful is absolutelycritical, but it isn't so easy.
I mean, we already know thatjust such a fraction of
Investment you know VC fundingand the likes goes into minority
businesses.
You know even less into tofemale minority businesses.
(31:08):
You know talk to me about.
You know the why is and whatyou've seen when it comes to
sustainable investing, and youknow people wanting and why we
should do this more, because Istill believe that means a real
kick into the media.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Like I think for me, layla, that if you think about
Capitalism, there's the realtrue power of capitalism is to
put money in places that matter.
And Unfortunately, morerecently especially, was the
advancement of tradingtechnologies.
(31:46):
It became a game of maximizingmathematical number, return,
profit and and most investmentdecisions actually on on the
stock market are made byalgorithm.
Now people are not involved inthese decisions.
Ai is going to take that to thenext level At the same time.
(32:10):
So there's this trend, thistrend of Algorithmic capitalism,
capitalism that is pretty muchnot managed, right?
So it's really about maximizinga number, even though you can.
Today, you can make money byinvesting in companies doing
deforestation in the Amazon.
It's possible.
(32:31):
Today, people are doing that,right.
I mean even even investment.
That looks like greatinvestment from from From an
environmental standpoint, mightnot be.
I mean the investment.
Tesla mean.
Tesla is true, it's kind ofmaking the world.
Moving the world intoelectrical cars.
Got half of the car CO2emission is on manufacturing.
What about batteries, right?
(32:52):
So?
So it's half-baked solution toget you to buy things you don't
need again.
So, but there are some positivetrends, right?
So the positive trends is thatthe, the money that is invested
in this world is changing hands.
There's a new generation thatis happening.
So there's a new generation ofasset owners that cares about
(33:15):
where their money is invested.
So that's why ESG indexesstarted to happen.
Like, I want to invest only incompanies that are supposed to
be good companies and they don'tharm their environment, they
don't harm their employees, thehumans that worked for them, or
so, and and that's just gonnacontinue people, these asset
(33:35):
owners, are looking for meaningwhere their money is invested.
And that's why you see thewhole investment industry
Whether it's private equitycompanies, the OVC, public
investment companies are alldeveloping impact products,
impact funds and the challengeof this of these of these funds.
(33:56):
So they raise a lot of moneyFrom this new generation wealth
owners that want to make itdifferent with their investment.
But that's not enough companiesto invest in, because many of
the companies that are worthy ofinvestment are not necessarily
Mission-driven companies, right,they are the companies that
build social networks that makespeople addicted, or the company
that makes Ecommerce sites thatmakes people buy things you
(34:19):
they don't need in one click.
So, so, so there's a need.
That's why it's a coding forall entrepreneurs to build
mission-driven companies andconnect the impact of their
business financially and nonfinancially, to their mission
(34:40):
and and oyster.
We want to prove that.
Want to prove that beingmission driven is actually great
for a turn on investment andand impact.
Entrepreneurs should be Will bemore rewarded financially and
if you're not, so, if you'rereally looking for success that
is defined today in our society,be mission-driven, so well said
.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
That was massive my face, and also makes me breathe
a sigh of relief that someonelike yourself is saying things
really truly are going in thisdirection as we see them, and it
makes me think actually a lotabout a, a framework that you
probably know about it.
You know the, the wealtheconomy, you know sustainable
(35:22):
prosperity beyond GDP and USDand things like that, and I was
musing as you were talking on,you know, this notion of what
wealth is and the fact thatyou're essentially saying look
beyond the numbers you know,historically it might not have
been, everything ismission-driven look beyond the
numbers, look at the innovation,look at the impact on society,
(35:45):
not just those numbers, becauseactually, you know, in the
wealth economy, certainly theframework, certainly there are
all these things which are farless tangible, things like
social capital, human capital,natural capital, which really
have far more wealth beyond thefiscal value of those, those
(36:05):
numbers.
That and you know, as you say,that is, that is true
sustainable investment.
I can't tell you how much itpleases me hearing you talk
about the new generations ofasset owners that care and
seeing indexes and funds Reallystarting to invest sustainably.
(36:29):
I like the warning as well, foryou know, look, I think AI can
do great things, but I do likethe warning.
But I don't know If we're justlooking at these numbers and
we're purely putting an AIbought into our stock exchanges.
And how can we truly providethe best outcomes for the future
generations of leaders, whichis what this is all about, tony.
(36:56):
What a tremendous podcast.
Before we wrap and I do my bestto summarize very quickly Is
there anything that you wouldlike to add or any words of
final wisdom that you would liketo share with our audience?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Well, I think this is possible because of what I call
sustainable leadership, whichis this new framework I'm
developing, I'm using right now,and it is about taking care of
yourself as a leader.
First, know how to leadyourself first, so you can be
credible and earn the right tolead others and take care of
(37:36):
others and, as a result, takecare of the planet.
So it means that for me, itmeans that I need to ensure that
I'm non-reactive at work, thatI take care of myself, take care
of my body, my mind, myrelationships and model the way
(38:04):
for others.
So, for example, if I send amessage at 2 am in the morning
to my team and I expect them toreply, they're going to model me
, right.
They're going to start havinganxiety from Slack.
If I work over the weekend andsend an email over the weekend,
then they're going to startworking in the weekend, right.
(38:26):
So this is how I see this likeif I really manage myself and
take care of myself, not reactand have boundaries and take
care of myself, I take care ofothers automatically as a leader
.
And as you adopt that method ofsustainable leadership taking
(38:50):
care of yourself and taking careof others and you think about
yourself, as everybody.
Right, then they can extend itto the environment.
So if I don't take care of myenvironment here I live in
Cyprus.
If I trash Cyprus and destroyCyprus, then how can I build
businesses right?
I mean, just by forcing myemployees to go to the office,
(39:12):
I'm doubling their CO2 emissions, so totally unnecessary.
So how do I feel if I'm hurtingmy environment to maximize
profits just by forcing myemployees to go to the office?
How would I feel about that?
There's something called echoanxiety.
So essentially, our actions,when we heard the environment,
(39:34):
we don't realize it.
We actually hurt ourselves, wefeel anxious, we feel depressed
by shifting your mindset andyour behavior to reduce your
harm or eliminate your harm orthe world in a more intentional
way does the opposite effectcreate more mental.
better mental health, you know,create less anxiety, and this
(39:55):
applies as well as, like allconnected sustainable leadership
is about taking care ofyourself, taking care of others
and taking care of yourenvironment.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Tony, thank you very much.
What a perfect way to end thispodcast with those wise words
about self, others,sustainability and the profound
effect that the actions we takehave on wider society.
I normally summarize thepodcast at the end and some of
(40:30):
the learning points, but this isdefinitely going to be very
hard for me, so I will just picka couple of the key learning
points that I had.
The tenacity and the resilienceis something that I think is
phenomenal that you'vedemonstrated.
I think it serves as real modelship for many others.
(40:52):
Contrary to where you may havecome from, you deserve to be
here, you know.
I think that the learning inthis world and this environment
and Tony is is fantastic proofthat true success, not only
fiscally but also inhumanitarian ways, can happen if
(41:12):
you push through that adversity.
Focusing on the self, but alsofocusing on the self of the many
, is key, knowing at the sametime that you can't do
everything.
I love how you talk, tony, aboutthis strategy around talent.
Everything that you do is basedaround people and how actually
business as a whole is.
(41:33):
This.
Inflection is the smorgasbordof inflection points, with
talent being the central key tothat to upskill and develop the
business capabilities Every timea brand new person comes into
the business, and you know, then, some of the final points.
(41:54):
The speed of decision making,the innovation that comes from
truly investing in businessesthat are meaningful and that
matter, is key, something thatorganisations and funds must
think about, and individuals to,in order to promote sustainable
investing.
(42:14):
I love a quote that I wrote downhere that you said was put
money in places that matter.
You know, mohammed in Nigeriadoesn't need to leave to go to
London.
One day, there will be a worldwhere he can do what he does
where he's at and bring wealthinto that economy, really
leveling the playing field ofwealth and opportunity that
(42:35):
exists in the world.
As we said right at the start,talent is everywhere and
opportunity is not, and I thankentrepreneurs and CEOs like you,
who are actually not justtalking about it but making it
happen.
That is social capital, that isinspiration, and that is truly
(42:58):
the way that we want to go intothe future, looking beyond the
numbers and to the people.
Tony, I know that was just alittle bit but, I, hope I
summarise as much as I couldthen.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Thank you, Anna.
Great summary.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
My name is Lain McKenzie-Dellis.
I'm the founder and CEO ofDialGlobal.
You've been listening to thetremendous Tony Jermas of Oyster
, the sustainable CEO.
Please do hit subscribe andplease do join our community of
over 60,000 people that havedownloaded this podcast.
You can get it on Apple Spotify.
(43:36):
We would be so grateful if youleft us a review, or you can
visit us at wwwdallglobalorg.
See you again very soon.
Hello, my name is Layla McKenzie-Dellis, Founder
and CEO of Dialglobal, and youare watching the CEO Activist
podcast.
We decided to start thispodcast because we wanted to do
something really special andreally unique and something that
involved the modern CEO Beforethinking innovative CEO of the
(00:23):
current day times that reallycares about putting the S in ESG
and utilising diversity as acommercial lever with which to
drive change for economic growthand long-term prosperity.
Stay tuned, because we have gotsome epic guests on the show
(00:49):
Today.
I am joined by someone that canonly be described as a truly
phenomenal individualentrepreneur, ceo, founder.
He's famously known as thesustainable CEO.
Yes, it is Tony Gemos.
(01:11):
He's famous for talking abouteverything from sustainability
through to hybrid work, thefuture of work and what that
truly means in a volatile anduncertain world, one in which we
live in.
Welcome to the show, tony.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Layla, thank you for having me here.
I'm excited to talk to youtoday.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Thank you so much.
I've been excited about thisfor many weeks.
I'm very bad at poking, so I'mclearly showing my enthusiasm to
everyone here.
Freddie very kindly intro'd usand said if you want someone
inspiration, tony is your man.
Tell us, in your own words, alittle bit of about how you came
(01:58):
to be where you are today.
Obviously, any entrepreneurdreams of being a unicorn, least
of all being one who has doneit twice and now, obviously,
being CEO of Oyster.
Talk to us about the journey.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I would love to talk about the journey, but before,
as a sustainable human being, Ihave to get my dog my push out.
He's trying to push the doorthere and actually the bonus
everybody to see Fatouche.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
He is absolutely gorgeous.
He's absolutely gorgeous.
We have three called Maud,blanche and Daphne.
What breed is he?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Because I have a King Charles.
Oh he's a King Charles.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
He's a very funny one .
Speaker 2 (02:50):
He needs to go out.
Give me back in five minutes.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You've been upstage.
Tony now by your dog.
He's very lovely and I'm sureeveryone's wanting to hear much
more about him as well.
But anyway, let's go back towhere we were.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
I got back to the journey.
I got back to the journey.
But when I say my gardener thismorning admitted to me that
he's been taking pictures withFatouche and it made him famous
on TikTok, so he's a star dog.
Anyway, let's talk about thejourney here.
So I was born in Lebanon in1980, in the middle of the Civil
(03:34):
War.
I spent the first 10 years ofmy life in that environment and
then, the moment I had thechance to leave because it was a
failed state, post-war country,no economical opportunity I
left.
I was 17.
I left a friend and studiedcomputer science.
Eventually I moved to London.
(03:57):
I started working in the telecomindustry a few years later and
13 years ago I started my firsttechnology startup from San
Francisco called Nexmo.
That was an API business thatwent 200 million or 30 million
in the first five years Look atpublic in mid-2016 by doing a
(04:17):
reverse merger with Vonage, acompany public at that time.
That led eventually to theiracquisition by Ericsson for a
$6.5 billion.
So I left the business.
I decided I want to take sometime off, focus on my well-being
, on my mental health.
Coming from a childhood growingin a war situation has
(04:43):
developed in me hypersensitivity, post-traumatic stress disorder
, hyper-stress response, fearresponse that I was really
committed to solve during a yearand a half, took a year and a
half off, and I did a lot ofwork personal work, growth work
(05:05):
and that work led me to decidethat I want to put my effort and
my skills into buildingsomething meaningful, something
that I believe in, and that ledme to Oyster.
So Oyster is global employmentplatform that is a
mission-driven company.
First and foremost, it is on amission to make the world more
(05:28):
free and equal by democratizingaccess to global job
opportunities, and I got to thatrealization in January.
So I started the business inJanuary 2020 and I got the
realization in day 2019 that Iwant to make sure that people
(05:51):
like me don't have to leavetheir countries, don't have to
leave their tribes, theircommunities, just for a better
job opportunity.
And, if you think about it,brain drain is the biggest issue
why emerging economies remainemerging.
Just to give you some datapoints about the opportunity
there are 85 million jobs goingunfulfilled in the West,
(06:15):
according to BCG.
That's $8.5 trillion economicloss.
That's two times the size ofGermany economy.
And at the same time, you haveover a billion knowledge workers
coming into the workforce inthe next 10 years, mostly from
memory economies.
So it was clear to me that aplatform like Oyster, using
software to make global hiringas easy as local hiring, can not
(06:37):
only be a successful venture,but can also deliver impact in
areas of wealth and equalityreduction brain reduction.
So, armed with that vision andthis impact mindset January 2020
, I started Oyster.
Then remote work became areality, much faster than we
thought it's going to become.
Actually, we were expecting itto accelerate, but it
(07:01):
accelerated 50x faster in 2020.
And so we knew that we had togo fast.
So we built an amazing companyin a short period of time.
Oyster today is around 600people distributed in 80
countries, from over 100nationalities, gender equal and
(07:24):
really a true mission-drivencompany.
We are a benefit corporation,we are the only B Corp in our
category and we raised that $220million in three years, grew
faster than Google in the firstyear, grew faster than Slack in
the first three years, and justcan't be more grateful to be
(07:48):
doing what I'm doing.
Align was my purpose andsurrounded with people from all
over the world coming to buildsomething that, ultimately, is
not really comfortable for me.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Wow, for those that know me, I'm really lost words,
but I almost don't know what tosay.
First, tony, I take my hat offto you from coming from Lebanon,
in a place that is ultimately awar zone, coming from such
(08:27):
adversity to building somethingthat not only has created a
tremendous amount of jobs andopportunity but is also
supporting levelling the playingfield, which is absolutely
critical.
And something that I observewith founders is the deep
(08:48):
interconnected tissue that theyhave with their childhood and
how they've grown up through tothen being able to self-identify
aspects of mental health andmeaning and purpose.
It's just absolutely phenomenal.
And where you talk about thischange in the workplace over the
(09:14):
last decade and certainly youknow we'll be seeing this for
the next decade as well it'sclear that you're utilizing
diversity and equity andsustainability as commercial
levers for economic growth,prosperity and success.
One thing that I was thinkingas you were speaking is that
(09:38):
talent really truly iseverywhere.
The numbers that you quoted areoff the Richter scale, and it's
sad to know that, even thoughtalent is everywhere,
opportunity is not, and so to beable to, with platforms like
(10:02):
Oyster, to deliver this impactat scale and to grow faster than
Google, I mean, oh my God, youcan say, that is another level.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Look, we hire 80% of people at Oyster from emerging
economies.
It's a forcing function fromthe top.
It's been great.
For us, one of our core valuesis elevating talent and it works
well here internally to elevatetalent from emerging economies
to participate and access theseamazing job opportunities we
have here in the West.
But that's only Oyster.
(10:37):
We support over 1000 customersaround the world to do the same.
We have seen the ratio ofemerging economies hiring from
20% to 30% in the last 18 monthson our platform and we are on
track of sending a billiondollar of foreign bank
investment into emergingeconomies per year from 2025 and
(11:02):
beyond, and that leads us toour success.
By the way, we're not doing itjust because it's nice or
because it's aligned with theeconomy.
We draw a lot of intelligenceand strategy in making sure
being mission driven drivesfinancial results.
So an example we position ourproduct not only to be scalable
(11:26):
from an HR compliance standpointso our customer can hire anyone
anywhere and look at the worldas one country, but also because
we make them talent competitive.
We give them tools and theinsight to treat Mary and Athens
fairly and give her a greatemployment contract to make sure
Mohammed Morocco get the healthbenefit he deserves and to make
(11:46):
sure Valentina and Argentinacan get equity and participate
in the upside of the business,and that's what our customer
want.
The way we are positioningOyster to use our mission and
connect with the hearts andminds of our customer and their
employees around the world isthe soul of this company and
(12:06):
what makes us financiallysuccessful.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
I love that you pulled the hearts and minds
piece there, because I'm such abeliever that you cannot have
prosperity and commercialsuccess without winning the
hearts and the minds of the many.
And clearly you're fantastic atstorytelling through meaning
(12:32):
and value, but also having theinterventions through data and
research that also have thatimpact.
I've seen too many people andorganisations over time get so
incredibly focused on data thatthey then forgot the human
aspects.
Likewise, at the other end ofthe scale, we see so many
(12:56):
stories and polarizingviewpoints in the media with
governments, with worldmicro-micro issues, that
actually we have to be able tocut through that and look at the
real facts and figures and thedata behind those so that we can
work out what that means andwhat a path is for.
And so I think what you'vedescribed so very beautifully
(13:18):
there is how, transcending thosetwo worlds of the data, the
value, all of the intrinsics,plus the hearts, the minds, the
meaning and why we exist toserve, bringing them together,
create something exceptionally,exceptionally special.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, and it's also because we're doing this to role
model.
We want to show that beingemission driven returns better
return for investors andentrepreneurs who take this path
.
This path of being emissionarycan succeed widely more than if
(13:59):
they don't.
That's, for me, is critical,especially at the world is face
increasingly with challengessuch as environmental challenges
, mental health challenges,economical challenges that we
actually demonstrate that goingand addressing these challenges
(14:22):
in the world is a great businessopportunity.
Like, you don't have to gobuild a social network that
makes people addicted to besuccessful, you don't have to
build an e-commerce conglomerate.
That is about making you makeimpulse purchase with one click,
by button, to be successful inthe world.
(14:43):
Like, you don't have to playthat game.
You can play a different game,a more powerful game.
Actually, simon Sinek calls itthe infinite game in his latest
book.
It is about having a just cause.
It's about a building greatorganization.
It's about being the otherexperiment and this is what
drives long-term success.
(15:04):
And we want Oyster to be a rolemodel for other entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
And that's it absolutely.
It is the business and theindividual in yourself.
It is entrepreneurs that makethese businesses successful.
I was speaking to someonerecently explaining that with
corporate organizations and lookour.
I adore corporate organizations.
They are predominantly ourcustomer, but ultimately the
(15:34):
corporate words that are spokenneed to be turned into
sustainable actions.
And actually investing inentrepreneurs, investing in
innovative businesses, is theway forward, because you're
practicing what you preach,you're putting your money where
your mouth is.
Smes and other growingenterprises makeup, certainly in
(15:54):
the UK, the vast amount of theeconomy, and so if organizations
are not investing in thosebusinesses, investing in those
people, investing in thatdiversity, they are not ever
going to get the innovation thatis needed.
And it makes me sad when I seeentrepreneurs and it's been
challenging at times for myselfeven raising so when I hear that
(16:17):
you've raised these phenomenalamounts of money, I just think
it's incredible.
We raised just over half amillion for 10% in the business
a year and a half ago and thatwas like another job in and to
itself.
I think the worlds of thosestartups, those entrepreneurs,
is so far at times, I think,removed from the land and the
(16:38):
world of the corporate that Iwant so much in podcasts like
this to showcase and shine alight on how much skills there
are there, because the tenacityto get stuff like that done and
put the foot to the metal it ishard those special, special
people and to a point you talkabout role models, often at dial
(17:01):
.
We call these real modelsbecause, like yourself, you have
lived it, you've breathed it,you've slept it.
Your blood, your sweat, yourtears have gone into building
that business and to learn onthe job.
Essentially, it's just crazy,it's incredible, incredible.
(17:24):
I got to ask, if you don't mind,tony, and partly for myself and
all the other people there thatare already being inspired by
this podcast, what were some ofthose inflection points that
allowed you to make thebusinesses that you've had and
invested in a success?
Because a big part ofentrepreneurship is lonely.
You spend such a lot of time inyour head in your office, awake
(17:48):
at night, thinking about whatto do and no one gives you a
book that says this is what youdo to grow.
These are the people you needto reach out to, network, work
with and those kind of things.
What are some of the inflectionpoints, the things that you
learn, because obviously you'vegone from here to here.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
The first thing I've learned is a critical importance
of having the best teampossible and develop an
environment in which they can beultra successful and
collaborative.
This is my second company andwhen I started this company, the
(18:33):
first person I hired was anexecutive search consultant who
was running the largestexecutive search firm in Europe
in technology, and we sat downand we developed a talent
strategy who should be in myC-suite in my executive team?
How are they going tocollaborate together?
(18:55):
What profiles?
How do you maximize diversityin that team?
And we went and executed onthat.
We've hired over 10 executivesthrough this thorough executive
search process based on thestrategy, and each hire we make
is an inflection point in thebusiness, because they comment
(19:18):
and they take whatever theirfunction is to the next level,
and so that gets me reallyexcited when I see a new leader
joining me on this path andgiving them the empowerment and
the platform for them to growand shine.
It takes us with them, and Ihave numerous examples of that.
(19:43):
But if you think about moreeconomical inflection points, it
was the pandemic.
We started this business inJanuary 2020.
We raised our seed rounds inFebruary.
The moment the money hit thebank account, we went into
lockdown and that was the lastinvestor I met in person at
Oyster was my seed investorbefore they invested.
Everybody else I met them afterthey invested.
(20:03):
And that inflection pointbecause that was a launchpad for
the business we had to go fast.
We were overwhelmed withcustomer demand and we had to be
visible quickly.
And the second inflection pointis the market macroeconomical
(20:29):
challenge.
That happened started two yearsago with inflation.
So we were this company hasraised a lot of money, growing
really fast, depending on theemployment markets, and suddenly
interest rate went up and wewere forced to go as fast as
possible to be an efficientcompany.
(20:50):
And that totally transformedour leadership style and our
goals.
And we you know, two yearslater we're editing in a much
better position than we entered.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So and it is an inflection point.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
It is absolutely an inflection point because we
depend on the capitalisticsystem to grow and I believe
mission-driven companies arecompanies that are successful,
have to use the system, has touse all the possible tools that
are provided by the system togrow and deliver on the mission.
And luckily, in that period oftime, the percentage of
(21:28):
employees we have on theplatform in emerging economies
went up 35% Because they need tofind talent in a more
cost-effective location wherecustomers meant that they need
to venture beyond their offices.
So that has helped us as wellin that regards.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
And I guess it also then had the residual effect of
diversifying the talent, goingto cost-efficient or less in a
Western world place.
It's also diversifying thetalent, increasing the
innovation.
What I'm getting fromeverything that you said there
is that business growth andsuccess is made up of numerous
(22:11):
inflection points.
Everything is an inflectionpoint.
It seems to me that you'vereally capitalised on the
opportunities of each of theinflection points to not only
number one start with the talentand the skills and upping the
gene pool of the experience thatyou have within the business
but also how you have navigatedso very quickly through speed of
(22:36):
decision-making andefficiencies.
And it's interesting because Ithink that, coming back to some
of our earlier points, is reallywhere fast growth in office
businesses can really teachlarge organisations how to move
at pace.
When you are an entrepreneurand you're working in an
environment that is so dependenton many different factors, you
(22:58):
absolutely have to have nochoice but to make decisions,
make them quickly, mobilisepeople, influence people quickly
and often change the course ata rate of knots, certainly in
comparison to large kind oforganisational structures or
(23:21):
corporate businesses.
Tony, I feel like this is abrilliant podcast because it
actually feels to me like I'mlearning so much very, very
selfishly, but I know all of ourlisteners will be getting a lot
from this podcast too.
I would be completely remiss ifI didn't ask what the future
(23:41):
holds, not only for youpersonally.
But where do you see some ofthe trends, not only in human
capital, but economic growth,also from a macro point of view,
because we're obviously seeinglots and lots of world issues
going on, which, of course,impacts businesses and the
people and the talent withinthem.
So talk to me about the future,tony.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I'd like to imagine a future where the opportunity is
distributed around the worldand not concentrated in
expensive, rich places in theWest.
I'd like to see the futurewhere organisations employ
people from anywhere.
(24:24):
They look at the world as theiroyster and not as different
countries with differentregulations.
I'd like to see the futurewhere work is more meaningful
and more sustainable.
(24:47):
I'd like to see moremission-driven companies making
sure that they are buildingbusinesses that do no harm and
some of them add additionalvalue, positive impact for this
world.
And the future is going to beremote for sure.
(25:08):
Remote is critical to enablethat change.
If you want to distribute thewealth around the world, you
need to enable remote work,because remote work means that
Muhammad in Nigeria doesn't haveto leave London and he can earn
(25:31):
five times more what he'searning today in Nigeria and get
that money into the Nigerianeconomy.
So Nigeria does not have enoughhard currency coming into their
economy, so their interest ratewhen they want to go and raise
money in government bonds is not15%, but it's more closer to 2%
(25:54):
.
What European countries haveeven 0% negative interest rate?
Why in Europe and in the US andmany of these developed nations
, we have great infrastructure,great schools, great health
system, because we can borrowmoney at 0%, while Nigeria is at
(26:17):
15%.
This is where the inequality is.
So I believe global hiring andpower by remote work is critical
to unlock or distribute wealthon this planet.
And once you make people feelthat they are worthy to be here
(26:38):
on this planet and not haveproblems and have nuts, then I
believe everything else willcome in place.
We will have less wars, we willhave less anxiety from work, we
will have less competition,hopefully, I mean this is a
vision I'd like to see for thefuture.
It might not happen, but I dobelieve that it's needed.
(27:02):
It's needed to go in thatdirection because, if you think
about it, it's only in the last200 years that these trends of
industrialization and capitalismhave accelerated and they've
made a lot of positive impact.
Today, even if you are in aless developed country, you
(27:25):
don't have to die with a painfrom your tooth right.
But it also created sideeffects in terms of inequality,
and social media is exaggeratingthat right now.
You cannot hide in your 19thcentury mention and, friends,
nobody see your wealth right,everything is exposed right now.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
You've brought up some incredibly pertinent points
there, and just on your lastone, you're absolutely right
when you talk about people notbeing able to hide in their
mansions.
There is this worldwide digitalculture of transparency, for
good and for bad.
You mentioned social media thatanyone can take to Twitter or X
(28:08):
as it is Sorry no and say whatthey think, or create negative,
positive narratives.
Say what they think of leaders.
There is so much moreaccessibility when it comes to
things like that.
Like you, I'm a true believerthat long gone are the days of
the white ivory toweredhierarchical glass offices in
(28:35):
the corner of a workplace whereno one dare speak to the CEO.
Now more than ever, ceos arerequired to be activist CEOs.
They are required to be muchmore things to many more people,
both in broader society butalso in the business.
And you talked aboutgenerations and things like this
(28:56):
before.
I think a good portion of thattrend rightly so is because of
these generations within theworkplace.
We have more generations now inthe workplace than we ever have
seen in a lifetime, and thesegenerations will not stand for
anything else.
And then all of these differentplatforms and social media
(29:19):
platforms that allow thatfreedom of speech, force CEOs
and leaders to really take noteof other social aspects.
And I guess, also just pickingup on one of the other points
that you made around Belonging,you know, making people feel
(29:41):
that they belong.
I think it's such a pertinentpoint because that belonging, it
goes to the very heart of ourDNA as human beings.
I'm sure we can all remember atime I certainly can where I've
walked into a room and I feltthat I was not Deserving to use
your word of being there.
And you know, I think a lot ofthat is exaggerated by, you know
(30:02):
, this systemic.
You know you know educationsystems, things like that, you
know.
You know I used to work inexact search and I noticed that
the higher up the classicalcorporate hierarchy you go, the
less and less people I see that,you know, looking sound like
yourself or looking sound likeme.
Despite getting a first-classhonors degree, I couldn't get a
job in any of the corporates andso I spun out and you know I
(30:24):
did my own thing and so you knowI really loved it or so, behind
mission-driven organizationsand Entrepreneurships.
And it also sustainableinvesting that you mentioned I
would love To pick up on.
Is that it's sustainableinvesting piece.
I think you've just done it.
You know textbook perfect.
(30:47):
You know Getting investmentinto businesses that are
meaningful is absolutelycritical, but it isn't so easy.
I mean, we already know thatjust such a fraction of
Investment you know VC fundingand the likes goes into minority
businesses.
You know even less into tofemale minority businesses.
(31:08):
You know talk to me about.
You know the why is and whatyou've seen when it comes to
sustainable investing, and youknow people wanting and why we
should do this more, because Istill believe that means a real
kick into the media.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Like I think for me, layla, that if you think about
Capitalism, there's the realtrue power of capitalism is to
put money in places that matter.
And Unfortunately, morerecently especially, was the
advancement of tradingtechnologies.
(31:46):
It became a game of maximizingmathematical number, return,
profit and and most investmentdecisions actually on on the
stock market are made byalgorithm.
Now people are not involved inthese decisions.
Ai is going to take that to thenext level At the same time.
(32:10):
So there's this trend, thistrend of Algorithmic capitalism,
capitalism that is pretty muchnot managed, right?
So it's really about maximizinga number, even though you can.
Today, you can make money byinvesting in companies doing
deforestation in the Amazon.
It's possible.
(32:31):
Today, people are doing that,right.
I mean even even investment.
That looks like greatinvestment from from From an
environmental standpoint, mightnot be.
I mean the investment.
Tesla mean.
Tesla is true, it's kind ofmaking the world.
Moving the world intoelectrical cars.
Got half of the car CO2emission is on manufacturing.
What about batteries, right?
(32:52):
So?
So it's half-baked solution toget you to buy things you don't
need again.
So, but there are some positivetrends, right?
So the positive trends is thatthe, the money that is invested
in this world is changing hands.
There's a new generation thatis happening.
So there's a new generation ofasset owners that cares about
(33:15):
where their money is invested.
So that's why ESG indexesstarted to happen.
Like, I want to invest only incompanies that are supposed to
be good companies and they don'tharm their environment, they
don't harm their employees, thehumans that worked for them, or
so, and and that's just gonnacontinue people, these asset
(33:35):
owners, are looking for meaningwhere their money is invested.
And that's why you see thewhole investment industry
Whether it's private equitycompanies, the OVC, public
investment companies are alldeveloping impact products,
impact funds and the challengeof this of these of these funds.
(33:56):
So they raise a lot of moneyFrom this new generation wealth
owners that want to make itdifferent with their investment.
But that's not enough companiesto invest in, because many of
the companies that are worthy ofinvestment are not necessarily
Mission-driven companies, right,they are the companies that
build social networks that makespeople addicted, or the company
that makes Ecommerce sites thatmakes people buy things you
(34:19):
they don't need in one click.
So, so, so there's a need.
That's why it's a coding forall entrepreneurs to build
mission-driven companies andconnect the impact of their
business financially and nonfinancially, to their mission
(34:40):
and and oyster.
We want to prove that.
Want to prove that beingmission driven is actually great
for a turn on investment andand impact.
Entrepreneurs should be Will bemore rewarded financially and
if you're not, so, if you'rereally looking for success that
is defined today in our society,be mission-driven, so well said
.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
That was massive my face, and also makes me breathe
a sigh of relief that someonelike yourself is saying things
really truly are going in thisdirection as we see them, and it
makes me think actually a lotabout a, a framework that you
probably know about it.
You know the, the wealtheconomy, you know sustainable
(35:22):
prosperity beyond GDP and USDand things like that, and I was
musing as you were talking on,you know, this notion of what
wealth is and the fact thatyou're essentially saying look
beyond the numbers you know,historically it might not have
been, everything ismission-driven look beyond the
numbers, look at the innovation,look at the impact on society,
(35:45):
not just those numbers, becauseactually, you know, in the
wealth economy, certainly theframework, certainly there are
all these things which are farless tangible, things like
social capital, human capital,natural capital, which really
have far more wealth beyond thefiscal value of those, those
(36:05):
numbers.
That and you know, as you say,that is, that is true
sustainable investment.
I can't tell you how much itpleases me hearing you talk
about the new generations ofasset owners that care and
seeing indexes and funds Reallystarting to invest sustainably.
(36:29):
I like the warning as well, foryou know, look, I think AI can
do great things, but I do likethe warning.
But I don't know If we're justlooking at these numbers and
we're purely putting an AIbought into our stock exchanges.
And how can we truly providethe best outcomes for the future
generations of leaders, whichis what this is all about, tony.
(36:56):
What a tremendous podcast.
Before we wrap and I do my bestto summarize very quickly Is
there anything that you wouldlike to add or any words of
final wisdom that you would liketo share with our audience?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Well, I think this is possible because of what I call
sustainable leadership, whichis this new framework I'm
developing, I'm using right now,and it is about taking care of
yourself as a leader.
First, know how to leadyourself first, so you can be
credible and earn the right tolead others and take care of
(37:36):
others and, as a result, takecare of the planet.
So it means that for me, itmeans that I need to ensure that
I'm non-reactive at work, thatI take care of myself, take care
of my body, my mind, myrelationships and model the way
(38:04):
for others.
So, for example, if I send amessage at 2 am in the morning
to my team and I expect them toreply, they're going to model me
, right.
They're going to start havinganxiety from Slack.
If I work over the weekend andsend an email over the weekend,
then they're going to startworking in the weekend, right.
(38:26):
So this is how I see this likeif I really manage myself and
take care of myself, not reactand have boundaries and take
care of myself, I take care ofothers automatically as a leader
.
And as you adopt that method ofsustainable leadership taking
(38:50):
care of yourself and taking careof others and you think about
yourself, as everybody.
Right, then they can extend itto the environment.
So if I don't take care of myenvironment here I live in
Cyprus.
If I trash Cyprus and destroyCyprus, then how can I build
businesses right?
I mean, just by forcing myemployees to go to the office,
(39:12):
I'm doubling their CO2 emissions, so totally unnecessary.
So how do I feel if I'm hurtingmy environment to maximize
profits just by forcing myemployees to go to the office?
How would I feel about that?
There's something called echoanxiety.
So essentially, our actions,when we heard the environment,
(39:34):
we don't realize it.
We actually hurt ourselves, wefeel anxious, we feel depressed
by shifting your mindset andyour behavior to reduce your
harm or eliminate your harm orthe world in a more intentional
way does the opposite effectcreate more mental.
better mental health, you know,create less anxiety, and this
(39:55):
applies as well as, like allconnected sustainable leadership
is about taking care ofyourself, taking care of others
and taking care of yourenvironment.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Tony, thank you very much.
What a perfect way to end thispodcast with those wise words
about self, others,sustainability and the profound
effect that the actions we takehave on wider society.
I normally summarize thepodcast at the end and some of
(40:30):
the learning points, but this isdefinitely going to be very
hard for me, so I will just picka couple of the key learning
points that I had.
The tenacity and the resilienceis something that I think is
phenomenal that you'vedemonstrated.
I think it serves as real modelship for many others.
(40:52):
Contrary to where you may havecome from, you deserve to be
here, you know.
I think that the learning inthis world and this environment
and Tony is is fantastic proofthat true success, not only
fiscally but also inhumanitarian ways, can happen if
(41:12):
you push through that adversity.
Focusing on the self, but alsofocusing on the self of the many
, is key, knowing at the sametime that you can't do
everything.
I love how you talk, tony, aboutthis strategy around talent.
Everything that you do is basedaround people and how actually
business as a whole is.
(41:33):
This.
Inflection is the smorgasbordof inflection points, with
talent being the central key tothat to upskill and develop the
business capabilities Every timea brand new person comes into
the business, and you know, then, some of the final points.
(41:54):
The speed of decision making,the innovation that comes from
truly investing in businessesthat are meaningful and that
matter, is key, something thatorganisations and funds must
think about, and individuals to,in order to promote sustainable
investing.
(42:14):
I love a quote that I wrote downhere that you said was put
money in places that matter.
You know, mohammed in Nigeriadoesn't need to leave to go to
London.
One day, there will be a worldwhere he can do what he does
where he's at and bring wealthinto that economy, really
leveling the playing field ofwealth and opportunity that
(42:35):
exists in the world.
As we said right at the start,talent is everywhere and
opportunity is not, and I thankentrepreneurs and CEOs like you,
who are actually not justtalking about it but making it
happen.
That is social capital, that isinspiration, and that is truly
(42:58):
the way that we want to go intothe future, looking beyond the
numbers and to the people.
Tony, I know that was just alittle bit but, I, hope I
summarise as much as I couldthen.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Thank you, Anna.
Great summary.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
My name is Lain McKenzie-Dellis.
I'm the founder and CEO ofDialGlobal.
You've been listening to thetremendous Tony Jermas of Oyster
, the sustainable CEO.
Please do hit subscribe andplease do join our community of
over 60,000 people that havedownloaded this podcast.
You can get it on Apple Spotify.
(43:36):
We would be so grateful if youleft us a review, or you can
visit us at wwwdallglobalorg.
See you again very soon.
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