April 11, 2024 • 45 mins
Prepare to be whisked away on an insightful journey with Leila McKenzie-Delis, as I sit with the unparalleled Marc Coleman of Unleash. Together, we dissect the exhilarating evolution of the HR events industry and the nuanced art of fostering indispensable human connections in today's digital world. From Marc's unexpected shift from science to HR, to the extraordinary challenges and triumphs of a remote-first events business, his story is one of resilience and innovation amid the ever-changing corporate landscape.
As the conversation plunges into the metamorphosis of HR, feel the pulse of a sector once confined to the background now catapulting to the forefront of strategic business change. You'll be gripped by tales of technological revolution and how employee empowerment has reshaped the corporate environment, culminating in an era where Chief Human Resources Officers are the new architects of workplace culture and connectivity. Our discussion pinpoints pivotal moments, like our experience at a Chelsea football club event, that crystallize the importance of purpose-driven workplaces in retaining top-tier talent across generational divides.
Rounding out this deep dive, we explore the impending 2025 milestone set to herald a new era of global advancement and the sheer force of staying ahead in the leadership game. Discover the 'impact of inaction' philosophy—how inertia in the face of change can be the silent saboteur of success. We wrap up with a glimpse into the upcoming Las Vegas event, with its rich promise of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging (DEIB), laying the blueprint for the future of work. Join us for these riveting insights that are bound to embolden and inspire HR aficionados and leaders alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, my name is Layla McKenzie-Dellis, Founder
and CEO of Dialglobal, and youare watching the CEO Activist
podcast.
We decided to start thispodcast because we wanted to do
something really special andreally unique and something that
involved the modern CEO, beforethinking, innovative CEO of the
(00:22):
current day times that reallycares about putting the S in ESG
and utilising diversity as acommercial lever with which to
drive change for economic growthand long-term prosperity.
Stay tuned because we have gotsome epic guests on the show
(00:49):
Today.
I'm joined by Mark Coleman,founder and CEO of Unleash.
Mark is leading the charge whenit comes to revolutionising
human resources and the industry, when it comes to community
technology, future trends and AI, so would love to kind of get
into things and perhaps evenunpick some of the how did it
(01:09):
all happen?
Because you know you really arerevolutionising the way the
human resources, the industry,comes together through community
, with tech, with AI, andnavigating what is, you know,
not only a geopoliticallycomplex landscape, but one that
is in such a hot area, so tospeak.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So, to go back on the early days of it, I'm a foreign
researcher, so I'm a scientistby trade.
My education is microbiologyand biochemistry, which I think
sets you up for the basics ofevent management, because I
don't think there was any eventmanagement courses or did not
(01:55):
know it existed as a disciplinein my youth.
But if you look at science it'skind of you look at
experimentation, it's got astart, middle and an end, it's
got apparatus, it's got magicingredients, it's got procedure
and it's got the conclusion orthe execution, and there's no
(02:16):
black.
Like you know, for a worldthat's black and white, there's
often a gray area, and that'swhat I love about research the
most, which is that likeregressive analysis it's called,
it's like why is that dot there?
And it shouldn't be there.
And that's what I love aboutthe world of events and the
world of building events.
(02:36):
I don't look to create, I'mlooking for that dot.
I want to be an out there andit's not about creating
something else that's kind ofalready exist.
Or you know, and I found thatwhen I, when I got into the HR
industry, that everything lookedthe same, it was tired.
A lot of people asked thequestion how, how did you
(02:58):
disrupt the, the events industry, particularly around HR and
future work?
And it wasn't.
It wasn't that difficult, to bequite honest, because it was
very tired.
Everything was, everythinglooked the same and the events
industry in general and I thinkthe pandemic called it out
hadn't innovated in years andyears and years, and so this
(03:21):
moved to digital and let's have,let's give virtual a go and
we'll save loads of money onflights and in person.
I mean, there was people onpodcasts like this suggesting
that the world of events was onits knees and it would never
come back.
But I think I think we're intothe golden age of events.
(03:42):
So I see this as being thereally disruptive and innovative
period of our industry and I'mloving it and hating it at the
same time.
So you know, 12 years later,it's about building a business
that's remote.
First events.
(04:02):
People are social animals, sowe like to get in a room
together.
That's why we've chosen thisvocation.
So it's trying to build abusiness with a group of people
from the industry remotely hasbeen probably the hardest thing
I've ever done and we've gonethrough two years of it and
you've enjoyed the most recentversion in Paris and you know
(04:25):
it's that kind of I would justsay that cadence of the way the
last 18 months have played out,since we kind of resurrected or
kind of said we're still alive,we're still here.
It's that cadence that we'vegone through now and what the
team have learned and thatinstitutional knowledge that we
lost that we bring forward now.
(04:47):
So I'm really really excitedfor 2024.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Mark, you've described that so beautifully
and articulately, if you don'tmind me saying and I'd love to
pull back into something thatyou alluded to with this whole.
You know, it's like the lightand the dark of working not only
as an entrepreneur where I meanI personally find that it is
often an emotional rollercoaster but also dealing with
(05:14):
those fabulous people that say,oh, do you know what that's it?
The events industry is overbecause you know you've
absolutely proved them wrong andI don't know about you, but it
gives me extra fire in my bellyto then want to show that
actually you've got to move withthe times to nasty.
Emotional intelligence and allof those other great aspects of
(05:40):
humans is what makes themcontinue to kind of drive
forward and strive into new andoften better uncharted territory
.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
That's it, it's the terra incognita, the uncharted
territory, and that's what Ilove the most.
I love to play in that area themost and if I, if I look at it,
it's the suppose it's to yourpoint the peaks and troughs, the
, the mental well-being thateveryone's gone through.
I see I don't use itflip-and-plea, but I think we're
(06:15):
into the golden age of events.
I've talked to all of ourcustomers recently and different
customer groups.
So what the analysts get fromcoming to one leash and in terms
of that final face-to-face,because they spend an awful
amount of time in the books, inthe research, in the numbers, in
the surveys and stuff like that, and so for them to get the
(06:37):
briefings, to get face to facewith everything that's it.
You can't beat the face to face.
You can't beat it.
And I'll talk to our biggestcustomers and they've got
significant pipeline off theback of, you know, the deal
making that goes on at the show.
It can be a sentence thatchanges people's minds.
It can be one connection, and Isee that all the time.
(07:00):
Some people find a job at Omnich, a new job or a future employer
.
It doesn't have to be immediate, it could be in two years time
or four years time, and that'sthe game and that's, you know,
all of that together iscommunity and so and that's
where I find myself after areally tough campaign post
(07:21):
pandemic that's where I findthat the smile on the face, the
energy, when people tell me itwas really easy to have those
big conversations, like theywere falling into conversation,
into conversation, and so whenyou have thousands of people in
a room like that, you might notachieve the same result with 100
people in a room, but you knowbeing able to create that.
(07:45):
What would you call it?
That safe space for everyone tohave big conversations about
their careers, what's theirbiggest pain point.
I mean, that's often the thingwhere you want to hear other
people that might be having orgoing through the same pain,
because in that is a little bitof solace.
(08:05):
But there is insight and adviceand recommendation and of course
it's like everyone, everyonewants to.
You know fast tractor careersand most people in our industry
have a growth mindset, so it'skind of a natural.
I want to go, you know, I wantto be successful in life.
I want my team to be successful, I want my company to be
(08:28):
successful.
So, yeah, that's what I'vetaken off the back of the last
three years.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And I think it's also very sensible when you kind of
look at it from afar.
How else do we best learn andmaintain our knowledge of the
trends if it is not for thatpeer to peer learning, sharing
transferable methodologies,viewing from a holistic point of
(08:58):
view what other organisationsare doing and keeping up with
those trends in such a fastpaced, vucal world, as they call
it.
And you know, I guess, beforewe kind of get into some of the
future trends because I wouldlove us to spend some time
talking about the future of work, what we see into 2024, as well
(09:23):
as how, you know, diversity,inclusion and the human aspects
you know, start to start toalign, because already you know
ESG or the S in ESG, the rolefunctions are significantly
changing.
Before we get into that, I'dlove just to go right back into
(09:45):
some of your you know whistlestop tour around your career,
because you'd mentioned at thebeginning of the podcast.
You know you really you knowkind of regressive analysis,
data analysis.
Being a researcher is how youcame to be, but you know, doing
the microbiology degree,microchemistry being analyzing
(10:07):
things within corporates, fororganizations like, you know,
the Microsofts of the world, itseems from the outside such a
big transition, but clearlythere's a huge need there, and
so I just love to know a bitabout the founder story, because
I think that's something reallyinteresting that I've heard a
lot about from peers of yours,and I think it would be remiss
(10:30):
of me not to give you a momentjust to talk through some of
that and how you've seen themarket change personally,
professionally, over the years.
Ah, cool.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, I fell into HOR .
I wasn't a founder that kind ofstood there looking at the HOR
industry per se.
My career has always been inevents.
I've always had theentrepreneurial genes since a
teenager.
You don't get that career advicewhen you're in school per se.
(11:02):
I don't know what your careerguidance counselor was like,
leila, but I was definitely notgetting a sense of like I might
have an entrepreneurial DNA or aworld of events is kind of your
future and you'll get to travelthe world and things like that.
So on the HOR piece, if I getinto it, it was initially I
(11:29):
started as a researcher, didsome work for the Economist
Intelligence Unit, if you'refamiliar with the magazine, and
that was my intro.
And then I kind of found myselfworking around companies like
PricewaterhouseCoopers, welles,hay Group there was a bunch of
the big advisory firms that Iwas doing work for, whether it
(11:50):
was research or helping themwith their events.
And I suddenly found I'm kindof meeting all the same people
all the time and I'm meeting thesame trends and stories and it
was interesting.
It was and I think everyone backthen this kind of being.
I'm not sure it'll ever go away, but the HOR in the street has
(12:16):
an affliction of the people thatare educated into it are not
necessarily know what they'regetting themselves into or by
design they you know it's.
It's quite, it's quite unique.
There's a lot of people I putdown to, especially in the old
days, people maybe not gettinginto their psychological degree
(12:39):
course with enough points fromfrom school and then kind of
going Organizational psychologyWell, that's the next best thing
, let's have a go at that, andand so what you're seeing is a
lot of youth that have gone intoH-org degrees, going in there
and getting textbook stuff butthen going into a corporate
(13:01):
world.
That's completely different.
And I want to say this, and IThink there might be still a
little bit of this not knowinghow to have a meeting, not
knowing how to project plan, notknowing how to make a phone
call.
I just the very basics of ofday-to-day business and, and I
(13:24):
think it was this thing where myobservations were HR.
Everything that was beingdesigned was HR, for HR, if that
makes sense.
And I'm going to say that wasin the early 90s or throughout
the 90s and I think when thecloud came along, this tech
(13:45):
revolution which was SAS andcloud you know, workday being
the bell of the ball, exactlyaround that time you had this
Massive movement where employeeswere able to decide on what
technology they were going touse.
And I was sat in Chelseafootball club doing I suppose it
(14:09):
was a round table for about 50CHROs.
I have a history of messingthings up, so I got that one
terribly wrong.
I took them to the ChampionsLeague football as the kind of
the first day, and then thesecond day was they were meeting
a gentleman called ProfessorJohn Boudreau For a full-day
(14:29):
masterclass on day two, and sowe went out and did the football
.
Everyone had a few drinks thatnight and so People didn't feel
the best for the workshop thenext day.
Let's say at that event therewas maybe five or six people
told me Mark, you've got to getyour arms wrapped around this
opportunity that is HR, the HRcloud.
(14:53):
There's massive revolutiongoing on at the moment and I
Took a look at it for a fewweeks and then decided, okay,
the business I've been buildingover here for you know, chro for
leadership it's quite tough,it's not really scalable.
Again, founders tend to talkabout this all the time I'm
(15:15):
where can I make a difference?
Where can I add real value withwhat I've learned over the last
two, two and a bit years?
And yeah, it was a no-brainer,I worked on this and again, as a
researcher it's where myresearch skills come back to
life finding out why all theother HR technology events in
(15:35):
particular hadn't succeededBefore.
Because there was plenty ofthem but none of them had gone
to a v2 or v3.
And in that I kind of saw thisrevolution of employee
empowerment.
For for all of those years whereyou kind of come up to date now
and it's all about employeeexperience and we've been on
(15:59):
that journey for a while andagain, it's not going away.
But yeah, if I look at it wasreally funny HR for HR, then HR
for the employee was the biggest.
Like that's what I enjoyed inmy my first real decade working
in HR.
And now I'm into my second, andit's like its purpose.
(16:20):
It's meaning its employeeexperience, its diversity, it's
all all the things we've talkedabout before.
It's does that answer thequestion sorry?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And what I'm getting from that is essentially that
you know, it has been anevolution this last decade,
coupled with the pandemic,coupled with what, historically,
the role of the CHRO or the HRpeople leader may have looked
like before.
Lairing top of that technologyand the fact that actually, what
(16:53):
was textbook back then is nolonger the state of play, you
know, is, how do you, you know,transform you know learnings
into you know real worldconnections?
Because had it have not beenFor some of those early
interventions, the researchbackground and the futurist in
(17:14):
you again, I'm very similarmyself.
It was never an intentionalpiece but actually been drawn to
it like a butterfly almost.
But how that then has transpiredinto finding you know
meaningful connections,opportunities, out of something
that might not have looked likeanything from the surface level
and actually Running hard andfast, knowing that there is
(17:37):
something that can make abroader Impact to the world.
And, let's face it, you know,large organizations need that
support, they absolutely needthat support.
We've got five generations inthe workplace right now.
So you talk of Purpose andfinding meaning in what we're
(17:59):
doing.
That is absolutely critical andif we don't do that, we'll
never retain the talent that'scoming in right now and allow
that to to break through the,the, the, the lofty levels of
the, of the C-suite.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
It's a fair.
It's a fair point.
And even the history of of HREven to make it simpler it's
when it was this.
It's been HR forever and lotsof people have had the idea to
change the name yeah, somebody'slots of people have said it to
me this year again and then itbecame human capital, which the
American government still adopts.
So if you're at NASA, it's thechief human capital officer and
(18:41):
then it's pre-pandemic.
It was Chief people officer.
I like to use the P for pan,chief pandemic officer.
And you've seen HR go from from, kind of maybe the old seated
table conversation.
I was part of that back in theday.
It was a long time ago and I'vegot the great whiskers to show
for it, but it's really come upto date now and You've kind of
(19:05):
you've seen HR, okay, seated thetable.
You've seen it come up rightnext to the CEO on most
leadership teams and and if, ifwe were having an argument about
what which is the mostimportant function in an
organization, Then it's neverbeen more evident that it is
talent, skills, purpose, meaning, and, and so the P would have
(19:29):
been pandemic officer was likehow do we keep our people safe?
And now it's purpose how do wekeep them?
How do we retain them insideour businesses?
So so, that's, that's the storyI'd like you know.
It's an easy story to weave,but that has been the journey
for HR.
I think it has another level ofgravitas than it did before the
pandemic.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Look, I'm biased.
So I Believe that the role ofthe, the chief people officer,
the chief human capital officer,the chief diversity officer are
, you know, the most importantacross the piece, because they
are literally while mark thatthey're mile wide, rather, and
they're mile deep In manyinstances sitting as a strategic
(20:11):
advisor to the CEO, becauseit's the engagement piece.
Internally, there's also, youknow what is the external
narrative that we're, you know,coming to the table with when it
comes to even our investors.
Now, you know, activistinvestors for for whatever
people make up for their own.
You know, activist investorsfor for whatever people may
think of them.
Amongst other, leading ismeaning that that role is, you
(20:34):
know, I don't think it'll everneed to find its way now to get
a seat at the boardroom table,because without it there is no
business 100%, especially thatlast piece through.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You're talking about we reinvestors, more, more, more
Literally, across all investors.
I know it's so important tothem.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
So can we get geeky and talk then about the future
together and where we see someof the key trends?
Because you know, for me,whether controversial or not,
diversity is a commercial leverfor economic growth and
prosperity, and what we've seenis this significant rise of the
social aspect Within ESG, eventhough I'm not convinced yet
(21:19):
that people know exactly how tomeasure it, but you've alluded
to it through a number of placeswithin our conversation thus
far.
That is, you know, it's theknowledge capital, is the human
capital, it's the social capital, it's the connections that bind
us.
How do you put a specificfigure on that when it is the
bread and butter of ourorganizations and the future and
(21:41):
engagement?
Ultimately, that equalsproductivity.
You know, what else are youseeing?
The HR and diversity leadersand even CEOs to that fact ought
to be looking out at ahead ofthe 2024 world.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I think it's interesting Because we've done
advisory boards on this year andobviously diversity is being a
big part of that.
It's interesting America versusEurope.
In America, a lot of you know,and it's it's red hot topic.
It's almost scary it's liketalking about Politics or
religion in the States when youget into the diversity
(22:22):
conversations.
But and I think this is theoutcome is that we've, you know,
our research.
It's telling us that a lot ofdiversity Initiatives in the US,
in corporate America, arefailing, they're not working,
they're not punching through.
I Think here in Europe it'sdifferent and it's it's
(22:46):
different for for the reasonsthat were European, I worked on
one of the early days.
There is a thing called forcequotas in Norway and it was
about putting two women on everyboard.
So a long time ago was again inthe early Northeast, and it's
quite an important project forwhere we stand today.
(23:08):
I never did.
I think how important it wasgoing to be because, again, back
then there was a lot ofnaysayers.
There was a lot of a lot ofpeople had an opinion women as
well In that you had to earnthat position or that seat at
the table.
But that's gone full waysaround the world, but it spread
(23:30):
through Europe in terms of thelevel of maturity before it's
gotten to America.
And then I would say, oh, mr,what's his name?
At sales forces?
Mark Benny off is probably agreat example of somebody who's
really took the charge orgrabbed the bull by the horns in
terms of Diversity and equalpay and stuff like that.
(23:51):
Fast forward up to today.
So comparison but this is thecurrent status, or this is what
we're hearing from our networkin our community in the United
States, versus Europe, which ismore strategic and embedded and
invested and More complexbecause of language and
(24:12):
everything else, and I thinkmaybe that flourishes as well.
But but the common Union, theEuropean Union I know it has its
again has its naysayers, butthere are a lot of directors
coming through from the EuropeanUnion that are both policy and
and very well thought out.
Because of the European Union,everything is complicated and
built on the back of manyarguments and Negotiations and
(24:36):
everything else.
It just doesn't land there andkind of go We've got a great
idea, we spent three months onthis.
The reality is, if it'sEuropean Union policy, it's
probably spent three years inthe making or longer.
So you've got a few Initiativescoming through where, if you're
a company of 250 people in theball, you've got to be hit in
(24:56):
diversity metrics.
You've got there's a new onecoming up I was talking to any
to letting go of this recently.
Equal pay is Is the biggie andthat's become a legislative.
So was the top 100 maybe to 500companies in Europe are
(25:20):
Prepared, pretty prepared, forthat?
Most companies aren't, and youknow that's a significant number
of companies that are 10,000above employees tend to be
called family businesses inEurope.
So so I think you know there'sthere's legislation on a number
of different levels comingthrough in the next two, three
(25:42):
years and and yeah, I thinkEurope gets to be lead the way.
I love this from from where westand, because we get to be
champions, we get to be part ofthis.
We get to lead the way with theEuropean Union for the rest of
the world.
So so, yeah, really reallyexcited by the way this is
(26:02):
evolving over here and I thinkit has a different level of
maturity.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I agree and so what I'm getting from everything
you're saying there and you knowI've probably said I agree too
many times, say I'm trying tofind something I don't agree
with you on.
But 2025 and beyond, it's goingto be a watershed moment.
I mean, we know thatlegislation is changing.
We've seen, you know, stillvery, very challenging
(26:29):
geopolitical issues which arehappening right now.
Goodness you know what you cango into, kind of the Israel Gaza
conflict and everything likethat but supreme justice court
action over in the states versuswhat's happening you know, with
everything with you know, ukpolitics and the likes, you know
(26:52):
is almost that and I'm not justsaying this to promote
unleashing anyway but it'salmost the case that leaders
cannot afford not to stayabreast of the trends and the
changing legislation.
One of the things that we haveseen is an increase in the need
(27:13):
for crisis communications aswell, in particular, for senior
leaders and even CEOs.
So where you mentioned the safespace at the beginning of this
conversation, having communitiesthat matter, having communities
to be able to share fullknowledge, research, future
trends and insights as, in myopinion, never been more
(27:34):
critical than it is right now.
We had a conversation with oneof our members recently and she
coined this term that I justloved.
You know, we talk a lot aboutwhat's the you know what's the
return on investment, and attimes I find that a frustrating
conversation because it's like,look, you know, do we need to
continually talk about what thecase for change and the reasons
(27:58):
why diverse inclusion, belonging, equity, culture, people,
resources are something that'sabsolutely necessary?
It should be an obvious no, andit's the right thing to do.
Of course there's a human need,but she mentioned the impact of
inaction, or the Iowai insteadof the ROI, and I thought, you
know, I absolutely love that somuch so we're making it one of
(28:20):
our subjects for discussion inthe new year at our online
summit and I thought what isthat impact of inaction?
Because, as you say, you knowall of these things are changing
.
You can't afford not to havethe peer-to-peer knowledge and
stare breast of things, becausewe've seen too many
organisations and their leaderscome crashing down because of
(28:42):
someone saying something thathas been either misconstrued in
the media or has been somethingthat has not been taken
palliatively for right or wrongreasons.
Because people can go onTwitter, they can be opinionated
younger generation certainlycan and when something blows up
about certain human rightsissues.
The cost to the organisation issometimes off the rick to scale
(29:08):
, and so what's the impact ofinaction versus the return on
investment?
I think it's a superfascinating subject and led with
the fact that there aresignificant changes in
legislation.
I think that the wealth economyframework which is all around
this knowledge, human, socialcapital, beyond GDP and beyond
USD that'll be coming into playin 2025, and so it's a really,
(29:35):
really interesting place to beover the next couple of years.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You're right on that as well, and I forgot to say
well, I talk about Europe andthat way, excuse me, the Supreme
Court have done a ruling onaffirmative action as well, so
which is causing organisationsto reaffirm their EIB strategies
and adopt new legal realities,and you've seen it recently, I
(30:02):
would say, the pain of, like youknow, when you talk about the
conflicts in the world, whereall Elon can keep his mouth shut
on stage or on his own platform, and they've suffered
significant consequences.
So I don't know if he's tryingto actually kill ex Twitter or
is he trying to.
Is it a kind of phoenix, likesomething that needs to, you
(30:24):
know, die and he's trying to getit.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
It's odd, he's trying to find some how out of the
ashes.
Yes, he Patty.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Cosgrove from Web Summit suffered the same
affliction.
He decided he wanted to have apolitical opinion and had to
fire himself from his owncompany.
So there's yeah, you're spot on.
But I think there is a big movetowards systemic DEIB and I'm
(30:54):
not be careful here because JoshBurson and the gang have just
launched a really cool report onsystemic HR.
But if we were to borrow thattitle for systemic DEIB and onto
kind of authenticate that intothe foundations of every
organisation that's out there,instead of the current reliance
(31:19):
on the high visibility or ad hocDEI initiatives and I think
that's kind of like that was mytake from the advisory board
we've had in the US that's whatI was feeling off it and I think
you know more equitablepractices and you know HR needs
to have a clear, clear voice inall of this and it's never owned
(31:43):
by one department.
So I think you know moretargeted action around hiring,
skills based hiring especiallyand exploring alternative talent
pools.
And if I was to give you areally cool story, I'm going to
drop a name here, but he mightnot even know this.
(32:03):
But I looked at the oldMicrosoft.
One of my first jobs was atMicrosoft in Seattle and and
many years later.
It was interesting to theninvite the global head of hiring
, which is a gentleman calledScott Petaskey.
I think he's since been CHRO,starbox and a few other
companies, but he was theirglobal head of hiring and he for
(32:25):
me he was ahead of the curve bya decade and more.
So he worked for Steampharma.
I don't know if you've ever.
If you can remember you'reprobably too young but you might
find him on YouTube dancingwith Bill Gates and a few others
.
They were so disconnected fromthe world of work.
I got like five or six softwaregeeks down that's the funniest
(32:48):
thing you'll see on YouTube.
But Scott was hiring at thattime for diversity, bringing
some really interesting like theoutliers into the business.
And you could see Microsoft wasjust going on a downward
(33:08):
trajectory and it wasn't justthe regular tree kind of you
know what had come in from theUS government and they kind of
got their knees cut off andweren't the same growth business
that they used to be.
And so I don't think Satya justarrived there and he's just a
new guru.
I think when he arrived inMicrosoft he had a really good
(33:30):
base from which to work from andI really put that down to Scott
, whether he'd agree with it ornot, but I put that down to him
hiring for diversity.
All that it's a long time agonow.
So I've seen what can become oflike a big company when they
get that right, but sometimesit's a pioneer and that's the
(33:55):
part of HR I love to wrap myarms, I like that's what we're
always looking to showcase.
To your point earlier on thetrends Whatever you say about
what's working and what's notworking, everyone wants to know
where you're going next.
Or am I going in the rightdirection?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
I think pioneering is exactly the word for it and it
does.
It takes one or two, many morebrave souls at times to put the
head above the parapet and sayright, I know I'm not going to
please everyone, but we aregoing to hire someone who has a
you know be a different race,ethnicity, gender, so on and so
(34:35):
forth.
But not just because that froma toast, not just that from a
tokenistic point of view, butactually the lived experience is
different, the skill set isdifferent and hence that brings
the innovation and thepioneering piece to the table.
But you always get that peoplebeing up in arms to start with
(34:57):
and then eventually everyonecomes round to that way of
thinking.
I remember in some of my earlydays networking with you know
very senior execs out on a golfclub in Portugal it's another
story and into itself andsomeone out there has said Leila
, you put your head above theparapet and you're going to get
shot at.
And it stuck with me even tothis day, because it was kind of
(35:20):
this warning of don't breakwhat is right now and it's very
specific industry.
I won't mention which industryit was, but it was quite an
archaic industry and you kind ofthink, oh goodness, you know,
do I risk the career, do I riskwhat people are going to think
of me if actually I go out there, you know, as you have, and as
every good founder CEO has, andsaid you know what actually you
(35:42):
know, let's look at doing thingsdifferently.
If you don't have the pioneers,you never have things move
forward.
One of my favorite authorsagain quite controversial is
Robert Green.
You sure you sure you know him,but you know those first people
that have gone against thegrain and, as you said before,
you know these people that youmentioned.
(36:03):
They were quite ahead of theirtime but eventually people come
round to that way of thinkingand start to own it.
But being the brave ones to dothat start with is always a
challenging, challenging piece.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I've got a quote for you on that and it's kind of
it's a tease, right as a founder, because it's your ideas you
get worried about peoplestealing your ideas or not even
stealing them.
It's just like if you give itout too early, but China, they
have a saying of the first birdto fly is the first to get shot
down.
So like it's hard to hear it asa founder because you go well,
(36:38):
if I'm going to be, am I goingto get shot then?
But I think that's part ofbeing a founder being brave,
taking that first step is alwaysthe hardest thing to do, and so
I'm trying to.
I've often kind of it's been alittle bit of something I've
kind of taken through my wholecareer To just be careful as
(36:59):
well.
Right, because, yeah, you'vegot to, you've got to make sure,
if you are going to take flight, you're in a position of
strength to do so.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Indeed, take flight, have a parachute or two that
help and support.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
And a bulletproof vest.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, bulletproof vest is an interesting concept.
Without kind of going totallyoff on topic, you know he's
spoken to I mean, I'm I namelykind of speak to similar
individuals like yourself andyou know, you see, you see HROs
and the likes, but I think thereis a fear of the idea theft
situation.
Actually, there is the, youknow, collaboration over
(37:35):
competition and there's alsothat piece around actually
having an idea is one thing.
We regurgitate them as theevolutions of each decade happen
.
The key is implementation,making it happen.
The amount of people I've metover the years that said, oh,
I've had this great idea and I'mgoing to do this, which is
where I commend you and what onleash you're doing and I saw it
(37:57):
firsthand when I met you inParis is saying you're going to
do something is one thing, butactually orchestrating it and
bringing and convening all thosepeople together, that is the
harder thing, I think, thanhaving the idea, because ideas
are many.
Orchestration and actuallyputting your foot to the pedal
(38:20):
and getting it done is quiteanother, which I guess leads me
on to actually let's talk aboutVegas, because I'm hoping I'm
going to see you in Vegas.
With everything that is goingon, I see that you've got
already brilliant kind oflineups ahead.
You mentioned name dropping,for I'm going to do it here for
you.
You have had some tremendouspeople at your events over the
(38:43):
year Simon Sinek, who everyoneknows to mention just one among
some of the world's most thoughtprovoking forward thinking
organizations.
So talk to us a bit about someof the name dropping and
shamelessly tell us all abouthow fabulous Las Vegas is going
to be next year.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I'm going to be careful here, because it's an
Irish thing, I can give up theghost.
But we were waiting tillJanuary before we make any big
announcements on keynotes andstuff like that, because
everyone's gone out forChristmas.
Now we are working on a few bignames you will have, you will
have the usual suspects.
(39:27):
Look, our events tend to bedifferent to everything else
that's out there.
You will have CEOs on theprogramming.
You will have, of course, yourblend of CHROs.
We will have the industry'sleading labor economists on
stage and it will be a, you know, a mad mix of about 250
(39:48):
speakers.
It's three days.
It's in Seas just for them,which is our new home we did.
The first star, first rodeo wasthis year, which, for anyone in
the world of events and even HRwill know that you know, doing
an event from the other side ofthe planet is not the easiest
thing to do.
We're there for the foreseeablefuture.
It's we are going to or badgingit differently to Europe.
(40:11):
I think Europe has the legacyof being our flagship event.
It's more sophisticated, has alot of different formats going
on for it.
Whereas Vegas is a lot to dowith strategic alliances, we
have a strong vendor communitybase there.
The future of work is born outof California nearby.
(40:31):
We benefit in kind from that.
What else can I tell you?
We do pre events as well, so wedo summits all across talent
acquisition, learning, hr, techand strategic alliances, and
then across the main two days,day two and day three.
(40:52):
The exhibition obviously opensup.
It's got four stages 200vendors across the floor, and
then the other, like the bigstuff, will be AI stage.
Stage one, which is where youget all the key notes, like you
know your assignments andRichard Branson, esther Pearls,
those type of personas, as wellas, obviously, the best of the
(41:14):
best that we can find in termsof, you know, case information
or or trends.
You know.
Again, it's people need to hearit.
You know, are we going into arecession?
Is the hiring market going toget more difficult?
Is everyone having the sameproblem with skills?
You know, they, you know, and,of course, darren, you know.
(41:36):
I think I said AI just a minuteago, but AI is obviously is
going to dramatically changework in the next two to three
years.
You know, whatever timelinespeople had, they've gotten
shorter and it's now arrivedwithout being Armageddon.
So it's a choice of do we wantto Star Trek world or or a Mad
(42:00):
Max world?
And, and I guess the marketeconomy, the biggest thing, kind
of pulling all of this togetheras well is going to
dramatically, is dramaticallychanging as we speak and is
going across a similar timeline.
So we have never, ever, ever,like golden age of events is one
thing, but we've never been in,you know, society has never
(42:23):
been in such a you know thatpivoting point in terms of
exponential world.
We are really on theexponential curve now and and
yeah, it's mind blowing and andkind of you know we're all a
little bit worried about it atthe same time.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I normally summarize at the end of a podcast, but I
think you've absolutely outdoneanything.
I could say that exponentialworld is absolutely it.
And you know, as the famousbook says, feel the fear and do
it anyway.
And you do it tremendously well.
So, mark, thank you, thank youever so much.
I'm going to give you 30seconds to answer one of the
(43:05):
lightning round questions,because I'm conscious that you
and I could talk about trendsliterally until the cows come
home.
So I'll ask this one question,and possibly the hardest,
actually.
But but for you now, at thisstage of your very successful
career you know, liaising withsome of the best in the world
(43:27):
what would you say now is yoursecret to success?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Listening to the customer.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Great answer Customer always comes first.
I would think like.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I would think like so I would say that.
But to your point on customerand I sorry I've just had a
Christmas party with my team inLondon.
I'm back here in Budapest now,but I would say it's team first,
customer second.
So if you don't have your teamin a good place and they don't
have the competencies and knowhow and tools to be able to do
(44:06):
their jobs, they're never goingto get that customer experience
to that level.
But I think, in terms ofsuccess, ideation of where we're
going and what we need to do,we need to become the customer
defines that and in a really funway.
It's obvious sometimes and then, in a kind of Steve Jobs way,
(44:26):
the customers doesn't know whatit needed until it got a
smartphone, like they didn'tknow they needed an iPhone and
it's not.
It's not to be argued, butsometimes you've got to be, you
know future casting what thecustomer needs, even though they
don't need it.
So so yeah, but I thinklistening to the customer,
(44:47):
that's the best one I can givefor any entrepreneur that's out
there.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Well, I think you're absolutely right and it is to
your point, caveated by havingthe very best emotionally
intelligent team that can tuneinto, into that need.
Yeah, mark, it's been anabsolute pleasure speaking with
you.
For those that would like to relisten to the podcast, share
(45:12):
the podcast, please do so.
You've been listening to thefabulous Mark Coleman, founder
and CEO of Unleash.
Make sure you check them out.
We've joined before in Paris.
It was a superb, superb coupleof days and very excited about
things to come, always nervousand in anticipation of some
brilliant events that are goingto be happening next year.
(45:35):
My name is Layla MackenzieDulles, founder and CEO of
Dialglobal.
You've been listening to theDiverse and Inclusive Leaders
podcast.
You can find us on Apple,spotify or any of your favorite
podcast channels.
Otherwise, visit us atwwwdalglobalorg.
Forward slash podcast.
See you very soon.
Hello, my name is Layla McKenzie-Dellis, Founder
and CEO of Dialglobal, and youare watching the CEO Activist
podcast.
We decided to start thispodcast because we wanted to do
something really special andreally unique and something that
involved the modern CEO, beforethinking, innovative CEO of the
(00:22):
current day times that reallycares about putting the S in ESG
and utilising diversity as acommercial lever with which to
drive change for economic growthand long-term prosperity.
Stay tuned because we have gotsome epic guests on the show
(00:49):
Today.
I'm joined by Mark Coleman,founder and CEO of Unleash.
Mark is leading the charge whenit comes to revolutionising
human resources and the industry, when it comes to community
technology, future trends and AI, so would love to kind of get
into things and perhaps evenunpick some of the how did it
(01:09):
all happen?
Because you know you really arerevolutionising the way the
human resources, the industry,comes together through community
, with tech, with AI, andnavigating what is, you know,
not only a geopoliticallycomplex landscape, but one that
is in such a hot area, so tospeak.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So, to go back on the early days of it, I'm a foreign
researcher, so I'm a scientistby trade.
My education is microbiologyand biochemistry, which I think
sets you up for the basics ofevent management, because I
don't think there was any eventmanagement courses or did not
(01:55):
know it existed as a disciplinein my youth.
But if you look at science it'skind of you look at
experimentation, it's got astart, middle and an end, it's
got apparatus, it's got magicingredients, it's got procedure
and it's got the conclusion orthe execution, and there's no
(02:16):
black.
Like you know, for a worldthat's black and white, there's
often a gray area, and that'swhat I love about research the
most, which is that likeregressive analysis it's called,
it's like why is that dot there?
And it shouldn't be there.
And that's what I love aboutthe world of events and the
world of building events.
(02:36):
I don't look to create, I'mlooking for that dot.
I want to be an out there andit's not about creating
something else that's kind ofalready exist.
Or you know, and I found thatwhen I, when I got into the HR
industry, that everything lookedthe same, it was tired.
A lot of people asked thequestion how, how did you
(02:58):
disrupt the, the events industry, particularly around HR and
future work?
And it wasn't.
It wasn't that difficult, to bequite honest, because it was
very tired.
Everything was, everythinglooked the same and the events
industry in general and I thinkthe pandemic called it out
hadn't innovated in years andyears and years, and so this
(03:21):
moved to digital and let's have,let's give virtual a go and
we'll save loads of money onflights and in person.
I mean, there was people onpodcasts like this suggesting
that the world of events was onits knees and it would never
come back.
But I think I think we're intothe golden age of events.
(03:42):
So I see this as being thereally disruptive and innovative
period of our industry and I'mloving it and hating it at the
same time.
So you know, 12 years later,it's about building a business
that's remote.
First events.
(04:02):
People are social animals, sowe like to get in a room
together.
That's why we've chosen thisvocation.
So it's trying to build abusiness with a group of people
from the industry remotely hasbeen probably the hardest thing
I've ever done and we've gonethrough two years of it and
you've enjoyed the most recentversion in Paris and you know
(04:25):
it's that kind of I would justsay that cadence of the way the
last 18 months have played out,since we kind of resurrected or
kind of said we're still alive,we're still here.
It's that cadence that we'vegone through now and what the
team have learned and thatinstitutional knowledge that we
lost that we bring forward now.
(04:47):
So I'm really really excitedfor 2024.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Mark, you've described that so beautifully
and articulately, if you don'tmind me saying and I'd love to
pull back into something thatyou alluded to with this whole.
You know, it's like the lightand the dark of working not only
as an entrepreneur where I meanI personally find that it is
often an emotional rollercoaster but also dealing with
(05:14):
those fabulous people that say,oh, do you know what that's it?
The events industry is overbecause you know you've
absolutely proved them wrong andI don't know about you, but it
gives me extra fire in my bellyto then want to show that
actually you've got to move withthe times to nasty.
Emotional intelligence and allof those other great aspects of
(05:40):
humans is what makes themcontinue to kind of drive
forward and strive into new andoften better uncharted territory
.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
That's it, it's the terra incognita, the uncharted
territory, and that's what Ilove the most.
I love to play in that area themost and if I, if I look at it,
it's the suppose it's to yourpoint the peaks and troughs, the
, the mental well-being thateveryone's gone through.
I see I don't use itflip-and-plea, but I think we're
(06:15):
into the golden age of events.
I've talked to all of ourcustomers recently and different
customer groups.
So what the analysts get fromcoming to one leash and in terms
of that final face-to-face,because they spend an awful
amount of time in the books, inthe research, in the numbers, in
the surveys and stuff like that, and so for them to get the
(06:37):
briefings, to get face to facewith everything that's it.
You can't beat the face to face.
You can't beat it.
And I'll talk to our biggestcustomers and they've got
significant pipeline off theback of, you know, the deal
making that goes on at the show.
It can be a sentence thatchanges people's minds.
It can be one connection, and Isee that all the time.
(07:00):
Some people find a job at Omnich, a new job or a future employer
.
It doesn't have to be immediate, it could be in two years time
or four years time, and that'sthe game and that's, you know,
all of that together iscommunity and so and that's
where I find myself after areally tough campaign post
(07:21):
pandemic that's where I findthat the smile on the face, the
energy, when people tell me itwas really easy to have those
big conversations, like theywere falling into conversation,
into conversation, and so whenyou have thousands of people in
a room like that, you might notachieve the same result with 100
people in a room, but you knowbeing able to create that.
(07:45):
What would you call it?
That safe space for everyone tohave big conversations about
their careers, what's theirbiggest pain point.
I mean, that's often the thingwhere you want to hear other
people that might be having orgoing through the same pain,
because in that is a little bitof solace.
(08:05):
But there is insight and adviceand recommendation and of course
it's like everyone, everyonewants to.
You know fast tractor careersand most people in our industry
have a growth mindset, so it'skind of a natural.
I want to go, you know, I wantto be successful in life.
I want my team to be successful, I want my company to be
(08:28):
successful.
So, yeah, that's what I'vetaken off the back of the last
three years.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And I think it's also very sensible when you kind of
look at it from afar.
How else do we best learn andmaintain our knowledge of the
trends if it is not for thatpeer to peer learning, sharing
transferable methodologies,viewing from a holistic point of
(08:58):
view what other organisationsare doing and keeping up with
those trends in such a fastpaced, vucal world, as they call
it.
And you know, I guess, beforewe kind of get into some of the
future trends because I wouldlove us to spend some time
talking about the future of work, what we see into 2024, as well
(09:23):
as how, you know, diversity,inclusion and the human aspects
you know, start to start toalign, because already you know
ESG or the S in ESG, the rolefunctions are significantly
changing.
Before we get into that, I'dlove just to go right back into
(09:45):
some of your you know whistlestop tour around your career,
because you'd mentioned at thebeginning of the podcast.
You know you really you knowkind of regressive analysis,
data analysis.
Being a researcher is how youcame to be, but you know, doing
the microbiology degree,microchemistry being analyzing
(10:07):
things within corporates, fororganizations like, you know,
the Microsofts of the world, itseems from the outside such a
big transition, but clearlythere's a huge need there, and
so I just love to know a bitabout the founder story, because
I think that's something reallyinteresting that I've heard a
lot about from peers of yours,and I think it would be remiss
(10:30):
of me not to give you a momentjust to talk through some of
that and how you've seen themarket change personally,
professionally, over the years.
Ah, cool.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, I fell into HOR .
I wasn't a founder that kind ofstood there looking at the HOR
industry per se.
My career has always been inevents.
I've always had theentrepreneurial genes since a
teenager.
You don't get that career advicewhen you're in school per se.
(11:02):
I don't know what your careerguidance counselor was like,
leila, but I was definitely notgetting a sense of like I might
have an entrepreneurial DNA or aworld of events is kind of your
future and you'll get to travelthe world and things like that.
So on the HOR piece, if I getinto it, it was initially I
(11:29):
started as a researcher, didsome work for the Economist
Intelligence Unit, if you'refamiliar with the magazine, and
that was my intro.
And then I kind of found myselfworking around companies like
PricewaterhouseCoopers, welles,hay Group there was a bunch of
the big advisory firms that Iwas doing work for, whether it
(11:50):
was research or helping themwith their events.
And I suddenly found I'm kindof meeting all the same people
all the time and I'm meeting thesame trends and stories and it
was interesting.
It was and I think everyone backthen this kind of being.
I'm not sure it'll ever go away, but the HOR in the street has
(12:16):
an affliction of the people thatare educated into it are not
necessarily know what they'regetting themselves into or by
design they you know it's.
It's quite, it's quite unique.
There's a lot of people I putdown to, especially in the old
days, people maybe not gettinginto their psychological degree
(12:39):
course with enough points fromfrom school and then kind of
going Organizational psychologyWell, that's the next best thing
, let's have a go at that, andand so what you're seeing is a
lot of youth that have gone intoH-org degrees, going in there
and getting textbook stuff butthen going into a corporate
(13:01):
world.
That's completely different.
And I want to say this, and IThink there might be still a
little bit of this not knowinghow to have a meeting, not
knowing how to project plan, notknowing how to make a phone
call.
I just the very basics of ofday-to-day business and, and I
(13:24):
think it was this thing where myobservations were HR.
Everything that was beingdesigned was HR, for HR, if that
makes sense.
And I'm going to say that wasin the early 90s or throughout
the 90s and I think when thecloud came along, this tech
(13:45):
revolution which was SAS andcloud you know, workday being
the bell of the ball, exactlyaround that time you had this
Massive movement where employeeswere able to decide on what
technology they were going touse.
And I was sat in Chelseafootball club doing I suppose it
(14:09):
was a round table for about 50CHROs.
I have a history of messingthings up, so I got that one
terribly wrong.
I took them to the ChampionsLeague football as the kind of
the first day, and then thesecond day was they were meeting
a gentleman called ProfessorJohn Boudreau For a full-day
(14:29):
masterclass on day two, and sowe went out and did the football
.
Everyone had a few drinks thatnight and so People didn't feel
the best for the workshop thenext day.
Let's say at that event therewas maybe five or six people
told me Mark, you've got to getyour arms wrapped around this
opportunity that is HR, the HRcloud.
(14:53):
There's massive revolutiongoing on at the moment and I
Took a look at it for a fewweeks and then decided, okay,
the business I've been buildingover here for you know, chro for
leadership it's quite tough,it's not really scalable.
Again, founders tend to talkabout this all the time I'm
(15:15):
where can I make a difference?
Where can I add real value withwhat I've learned over the last
two, two and a bit years?
And yeah, it was a no-brainer,I worked on this and again, as a
researcher it's where myresearch skills come back to
life finding out why all theother HR technology events in
(15:35):
particular hadn't succeededBefore.
Because there was plenty ofthem but none of them had gone
to a v2 or v3.
And in that I kind of saw thisrevolution of employee
empowerment.
For for all of those years whereyou kind of come up to date now
and it's all about employeeexperience and we've been on
(15:59):
that journey for a while andagain, it's not going away.
But yeah, if I look at it wasreally funny HR for HR, then HR
for the employee was the biggest.
Like that's what I enjoyed inmy my first real decade working
in HR.
And now I'm into my second, andit's like its purpose.
(16:20):
It's meaning its employeeexperience, its diversity, it's
all all the things we've talkedabout before.
It's does that answer thequestion sorry?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
And what I'm getting from that is essentially that
you know, it has been anevolution this last decade,
coupled with the pandemic,coupled with what, historically,
the role of the CHRO or the HRpeople leader may have looked
like before.
Lairing top of that technologyand the fact that actually, what
(16:53):
was textbook back then is nolonger the state of play, you
know, is, how do you, you know,transform you know learnings
into you know real worldconnections?
Because had it have not beenFor some of those early
interventions, the researchbackground and the futurist in
(17:14):
you again, I'm very similarmyself.
It was never an intentionalpiece but actually been drawn to
it like a butterfly almost.
But how that then has transpiredinto finding you know
meaningful connections,opportunities, out of something
that might not have looked likeanything from the surface level
and actually Running hard andfast, knowing that there is
(17:37):
something that can make abroader Impact to the world.
And, let's face it, you know,large organizations need that
support, they absolutely needthat support.
We've got five generations inthe workplace right now.
So you talk of Purpose andfinding meaning in what we're
(17:59):
doing.
That is absolutely critical andif we don't do that, we'll
never retain the talent that'scoming in right now and allow
that to to break through the,the, the, the lofty levels of
the, of the C-suite.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
It's a fair.
It's a fair point.
And even the history of of HREven to make it simpler it's
when it was this.
It's been HR forever and lotsof people have had the idea to
change the name yeah, somebody'slots of people have said it to
me this year again and then itbecame human capital, which the
American government still adopts.
So if you're at NASA, it's thechief human capital officer and
(18:41):
then it's pre-pandemic.
It was Chief people officer.
I like to use the P for pan,chief pandemic officer.
And you've seen HR go from from, kind of maybe the old seated
table conversation.
I was part of that back in theday.
It was a long time ago and I'vegot the great whiskers to show
for it, but it's really come upto date now and You've kind of
(19:05):
you've seen HR, okay, seated thetable.
You've seen it come up rightnext to the CEO on most
leadership teams and and if, ifwe were having an argument about
what which is the mostimportant function in an
organization, Then it's neverbeen more evident that it is
talent, skills, purpose, meaning, and, and so the P would have
(19:29):
been pandemic officer was likehow do we keep our people safe?
And now it's purpose how do wekeep them?
How do we retain them insideour businesses?
So so, that's, that's the storyI'd like you know.
It's an easy story to weave,but that has been the journey
for HR.
I think it has another level ofgravitas than it did before the
pandemic.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Look, I'm biased.
So I Believe that the role ofthe, the chief people officer,
the chief human capital officer,the chief diversity officer are
, you know, the most importantacross the piece, because they
are literally while mark thatthey're mile wide, rather, and
they're mile deep In manyinstances sitting as a strategic
(20:11):
advisor to the CEO, becauseit's the engagement piece.
Internally, there's also, youknow what is the external
narrative that we're, you know,coming to the table with when it
comes to even our investors.
Now, you know, activistinvestors for for whatever
people make up for their own.
You know, activist investorsfor for whatever people may
think of them.
Amongst other, leading ismeaning that that role is, you
(20:34):
know, I don't think it'll everneed to find its way now to get
a seat at the boardroom table,because without it there is no
business 100%, especially thatlast piece through.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
You're talking about we reinvestors, more, more, more
Literally, across all investors.
I know it's so important tothem.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
So can we get geeky and talk then about the future
together and where we see someof the key trends?
Because you know, for me,whether controversial or not,
diversity is a commercial leverfor economic growth and
prosperity, and what we've seenis this significant rise of the
social aspect Within ESG, eventhough I'm not convinced yet
(21:19):
that people know exactly how tomeasure it, but you've alluded
to it through a number of placeswithin our conversation thus
far.
That is, you know, it's theknowledge capital, is the human
capital, it's the social capital, it's the connections that bind
us.
How do you put a specificfigure on that when it is the
bread and butter of ourorganizations and the future and
(21:41):
engagement?
Ultimately, that equalsproductivity.
You know, what else are youseeing?
The HR and diversity leadersand even CEOs to that fact ought
to be looking out at ahead ofthe 2024 world.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
I think it's interesting Because we've done
advisory boards on this year andobviously diversity is being a
big part of that.
It's interesting America versusEurope.
In America, a lot of you know,and it's it's red hot topic.
It's almost scary it's liketalking about Politics or
religion in the States when youget into the diversity
(22:22):
conversations.
But and I think this is theoutcome is that we've, you know,
our research.
It's telling us that a lot ofdiversity Initiatives in the US,
in corporate America, arefailing, they're not working,
they're not punching through.
I Think here in Europe it'sdifferent and it's it's
(22:46):
different for for the reasonsthat were European, I worked on
one of the early days.
There is a thing called forcequotas in Norway and it was
about putting two women on everyboard.
So a long time ago was again inthe early Northeast, and it's
quite an important project forwhere we stand today.
(23:08):
I never did.
I think how important it wasgoing to be because, again, back
then there was a lot ofnaysayers.
There was a lot of a lot ofpeople had an opinion women as
well In that you had to earnthat position or that seat at
the table.
But that's gone full waysaround the world, but it spread
(23:30):
through Europe in terms of thelevel of maturity before it's
gotten to America.
And then I would say, oh, mr,what's his name?
At sales forces?
Mark Benny off is probably agreat example of somebody who's
really took the charge orgrabbed the bull by the horns in
terms of Diversity and equalpay and stuff like that.
(23:51):
Fast forward up to today.
So comparison but this is thecurrent status, or this is what
we're hearing from our networkin our community in the United
States, versus Europe, which ismore strategic and embedded and
invested and More complexbecause of language and
(24:12):
everything else, and I thinkmaybe that flourishes as well.
But but the common Union, theEuropean Union I know it has its
again has its naysayers, butthere are a lot of directors
coming through from the EuropeanUnion that are both policy and
and very well thought out.
Because of the European Union,everything is complicated and
built on the back of manyarguments and Negotiations and
(24:36):
everything else.
It just doesn't land there andkind of go We've got a great
idea, we spent three months onthis.
The reality is, if it'sEuropean Union policy, it's
probably spent three years inthe making or longer.
So you've got a few Initiativescoming through where, if you're
a company of 250 people in theball, you've got to be hit in
(24:56):
diversity metrics.
You've got there's a new onecoming up I was talking to any
to letting go of this recently.
Equal pay is Is the biggie andthat's become a legislative.
So was the top 100 maybe to 500companies in Europe are
(25:20):
Prepared, pretty prepared, forthat?
Most companies aren't, and youknow that's a significant number
of companies that are 10,000above employees tend to be
called family businesses inEurope.
So so I think you know there'sthere's legislation on a number
of different levels comingthrough in the next two, three
(25:42):
years and and yeah, I thinkEurope gets to be lead the way.
I love this from from where westand, because we get to be
champions, we get to be part ofthis.
We get to lead the way with theEuropean Union for the rest of
the world.
So so, yeah, really reallyexcited by the way this is
(26:02):
evolving over here and I thinkit has a different level of
maturity.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I agree and so what I'm getting from everything
you're saying there and you knowI've probably said I agree too
many times, say I'm trying tofind something I don't agree
with you on.
But 2025 and beyond, it's goingto be a watershed moment.
I mean, we know thatlegislation is changing.
We've seen, you know, stillvery, very challenging
(26:29):
geopolitical issues which arehappening right now.
Goodness you know what you cango into, kind of the Israel Gaza
conflict and everything likethat but supreme justice court
action over in the states versuswhat's happening you know, with
everything with you know, ukpolitics and the likes, you know
(26:52):
is almost that and I'm not justsaying this to promote
unleashing anyway but it'salmost the case that leaders
cannot afford not to stayabreast of the trends and the
changing legislation.
One of the things that we haveseen is an increase in the need
(27:13):
for crisis communications aswell, in particular, for senior
leaders and even CEOs.
So where you mentioned the safespace at the beginning of this
conversation, having communitiesthat matter, having communities
to be able to share fullknowledge, research, future
trends and insights as, in myopinion, never been more
(27:34):
critical than it is right now.
We had a conversation with oneof our members recently and she
coined this term that I justloved.
You know, we talk a lot aboutwhat's the you know what's the
return on investment, and attimes I find that a frustrating
conversation because it's like,look, you know, do we need to
continually talk about what thecase for change and the reasons
(27:58):
why diverse inclusion, belonging, equity, culture, people,
resources are something that'sabsolutely necessary?
It should be an obvious no, andit's the right thing to do.
Of course there's a human need,but she mentioned the impact of
inaction, or the Iowai insteadof the ROI, and I thought, you
know, I absolutely love that somuch so we're making it one of
(28:20):
our subjects for discussion inthe new year at our online
summit and I thought what isthat impact of inaction?
Because, as you say, you knowall of these things are changing
.
You can't afford not to havethe peer-to-peer knowledge and
stare breast of things, becausewe've seen too many
organisations and their leaderscome crashing down because of
(28:42):
someone saying something thathas been either misconstrued in
the media or has been somethingthat has not been taken
palliatively for right or wrongreasons.
Because people can go onTwitter, they can be opinionated
younger generation certainlycan and when something blows up
about certain human rightsissues.
The cost to the organisation issometimes off the rick to scale
(29:08):
, and so what's the impact ofinaction versus the return on
investment?
I think it's a superfascinating subject and led with
the fact that there aresignificant changes in
legislation.
I think that the wealth economyframework which is all around
this knowledge, human, socialcapital, beyond GDP and beyond
USD that'll be coming into playin 2025, and so it's a really,
(29:35):
really interesting place to beover the next couple of years.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You're right on that as well, and I forgot to say
well, I talk about Europe andthat way, excuse me, the Supreme
Court have done a ruling onaffirmative action as well, so
which is causing organisationsto reaffirm their EIB strategies
and adopt new legal realities,and you've seen it recently, I
(30:02):
would say, the pain of, like youknow, when you talk about the
conflicts in the world, whereall Elon can keep his mouth shut
on stage or on his own platform, and they've suffered
significant consequences.
So I don't know if he's tryingto actually kill ex Twitter or
is he trying to.
Is it a kind of phoenix, likesomething that needs to, you
(30:24):
know, die and he's trying to getit.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
It's odd, he's trying to find some how out of the
ashes.
Yes, he Patty.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Cosgrove from Web Summit suffered the same
affliction.
He decided he wanted to have apolitical opinion and had to
fire himself from his owncompany.
So there's yeah, you're spot on.
But I think there is a big movetowards systemic DEIB and I'm
(30:54):
not be careful here because JoshBurson and the gang have just
launched a really cool report onsystemic HR.
But if we were to borrow thattitle for systemic DEIB and onto
kind of authenticate that intothe foundations of every
organisation that's out there,instead of the current reliance
(31:19):
on the high visibility or ad hocDEI initiatives and I think
that's kind of like that was mytake from the advisory board
we've had in the US that's whatI was feeling off it and I think
you know more equitablepractices and you know HR needs
to have a clear, clear voice inall of this and it's never owned
(31:43):
by one department.
So I think you know moretargeted action around hiring,
skills based hiring especiallyand exploring alternative talent
pools.
And if I was to give you areally cool story, I'm going to
drop a name here, but he mightnot even know this.
(32:03):
But I looked at the oldMicrosoft.
One of my first jobs was atMicrosoft in Seattle and and
many years later.
It was interesting to theninvite the global head of hiring
, which is a gentleman calledScott Petaskey.
I think he's since been CHRO,starbox and a few other
companies, but he was theirglobal head of hiring and he for
(32:25):
me he was ahead of the curve bya decade and more.
So he worked for Steampharma.
I don't know if you've ever.
If you can remember you'reprobably too young but you might
find him on YouTube dancingwith Bill Gates and a few others
.
They were so disconnected fromthe world of work.
I got like five or six softwaregeeks down that's the funniest
(32:48):
thing you'll see on YouTube.
But Scott was hiring at thattime for diversity, bringing
some really interesting like theoutliers into the business.
And you could see Microsoft wasjust going on a downward
(33:08):
trajectory and it wasn't justthe regular tree kind of you
know what had come in from theUS government and they kind of
got their knees cut off andweren't the same growth business
that they used to be.
And so I don't think Satya justarrived there and he's just a
new guru.
I think when he arrived inMicrosoft he had a really good
(33:30):
base from which to work from andI really put that down to Scott
, whether he'd agree with it ornot, but I put that down to him
hiring for diversity.
All that it's a long time agonow.
So I've seen what can become oflike a big company when they
get that right, but sometimesit's a pioneer and that's the
(33:55):
part of HR I love to wrap myarms, I like that's what we're
always looking to showcase.
To your point earlier on thetrends Whatever you say about
what's working and what's notworking, everyone wants to know
where you're going next.
Or am I going in the rightdirection?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
I think pioneering is exactly the word for it and it
does.
It takes one or two, many morebrave souls at times to put the
head above the parapet and sayright, I know I'm not going to
please everyone, but we aregoing to hire someone who has a
you know be a different race,ethnicity, gender, so on and so
(34:35):
forth.
But not just because that froma toast, not just that from a
tokenistic point of view, butactually the lived experience is
different, the skill set isdifferent and hence that brings
the innovation and thepioneering piece to the table.
But you always get that peoplebeing up in arms to start with
(34:57):
and then eventually everyonecomes round to that way of
thinking.
I remember in some of my earlydays networking with you know
very senior execs out on a golfclub in Portugal it's another
story and into itself andsomeone out there has said Leila
, you put your head above theparapet and you're going to get
shot at.
And it stuck with me even tothis day, because it was kind of
(35:20):
this warning of don't breakwhat is right now and it's very
specific industry.
I won't mention which industryit was, but it was quite an
archaic industry and you kind ofthink, oh goodness, you know,
do I risk the career, do I riskwhat people are going to think
of me if actually I go out there, you know, as you have, and as
every good founder CEO has, andsaid you know what actually you
(35:42):
know, let's look at doing thingsdifferently.
If you don't have the pioneers,you never have things move
forward.
One of my favorite authorsagain quite controversial is
Robert Green.
You sure you sure you know him,but you know those first people
that have gone against thegrain and, as you said before,
you know these people that youmentioned.
(36:03):
They were quite ahead of theirtime but eventually people come
round to that way of thinkingand start to own it.
But being the brave ones to dothat start with is always a
challenging, challenging piece.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I've got a quote for you on that and it's kind of
it's a tease, right as a founder, because it's your ideas you
get worried about peoplestealing your ideas or not even
stealing them.
It's just like if you give itout too early, but China, they
have a saying of the first birdto fly is the first to get shot
down.
So like it's hard to hear it asa founder because you go well,
(36:38):
if I'm going to be, am I goingto get shot then?
But I think that's part ofbeing a founder being brave,
taking that first step is alwaysthe hardest thing to do, and so
I'm trying to.
I've often kind of it's been alittle bit of something I've
kind of taken through my wholecareer To just be careful as
(36:59):
well.
Right, because, yeah, you'vegot to, you've got to make sure,
if you are going to take flight, you're in a position of
strength to do so.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Indeed, take flight, have a parachute or two that
help and support.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
And a bulletproof vest.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, bulletproof vest is an interesting concept.
Without kind of going totallyoff on topic, you know he's
spoken to I mean, I'm I namelykind of speak to similar
individuals like yourself andyou know, you see, you see HROs
and the likes, but I think thereis a fear of the idea theft
situation.
Actually, there is the, youknow, collaboration over
(37:35):
competition and there's alsothat piece around actually
having an idea is one thing.
We regurgitate them as theevolutions of each decade happen
.
The key is implementation,making it happen.
The amount of people I've metover the years that said, oh,
I've had this great idea and I'mgoing to do this, which is
where I commend you and what onleash you're doing and I saw it
(37:57):
firsthand when I met you inParis is saying you're going to
do something is one thing, butactually orchestrating it and
bringing and convening all thosepeople together, that is the
harder thing, I think, thanhaving the idea, because ideas
are many.
Orchestration and actuallyputting your foot to the pedal
(38:20):
and getting it done is quiteanother, which I guess leads me
on to actually let's talk aboutVegas, because I'm hoping I'm
going to see you in Vegas.
With everything that is goingon, I see that you've got
already brilliant kind oflineups ahead.
You mentioned name dropping,for I'm going to do it here for
you.
You have had some tremendouspeople at your events over the
(38:43):
year Simon Sinek, who everyoneknows to mention just one among
some of the world's most thoughtprovoking forward thinking
organizations.
So talk to us a bit about someof the name dropping and
shamelessly tell us all abouthow fabulous Las Vegas is going
to be next year.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
I'm going to be careful here, because it's an
Irish thing, I can give up theghost.
But we were waiting tillJanuary before we make any big
announcements on keynotes andstuff like that, because
everyone's gone out forChristmas.
Now we are working on a few bignames you will have, you will
have the usual suspects.
(39:27):
Look, our events tend to bedifferent to everything else
that's out there.
You will have CEOs on theprogramming.
You will have, of course, yourblend of CHROs.
We will have the industry'sleading labor economists on
stage and it will be a, you know, a mad mix of about 250
(39:48):
speakers.
It's three days.
It's in Seas just for them,which is our new home we did.
The first star, first rodeo wasthis year, which, for anyone in
the world of events and even HRwill know that you know, doing
an event from the other side ofthe planet is not the easiest
thing to do.
We're there for the foreseeablefuture.
It's we are going to or badgingit differently to Europe.
(40:11):
I think Europe has the legacyof being our flagship event.
It's more sophisticated, has alot of different formats going
on for it.
Whereas Vegas is a lot to dowith strategic alliances, we
have a strong vendor communitybase there.
The future of work is born outof California nearby.
(40:31):
We benefit in kind from that.
What else can I tell you?
We do pre events as well, so wedo summits all across talent
acquisition, learning, hr, techand strategic alliances, and
then across the main two days,day two and day three.
(40:52):
The exhibition obviously opensup.
It's got four stages 200vendors across the floor, and
then the other, like the bigstuff, will be AI stage.
Stage one, which is where youget all the key notes, like you
know your assignments andRichard Branson, esther Pearls,
those type of personas, as wellas, obviously, the best of the
(41:14):
best that we can find in termsof, you know, case information
or or trends.
You know.
Again, it's people need to hearit.
You know, are we going into arecession?
Is the hiring market going toget more difficult?
Is everyone having the sameproblem with skills?
You know, they, you know, and,of course, darren, you know.
(41:36):
I think I said AI just a minuteago, but AI is obviously is
going to dramatically changework in the next two to three
years.
You know, whatever timelinespeople had, they've gotten
shorter and it's now arrivedwithout being Armageddon.
So it's a choice of do we wantto Star Trek world or or a Mad
(42:00):
Max world?
And, and I guess the marketeconomy, the biggest thing, kind
of pulling all of this togetheras well is going to
dramatically, is dramaticallychanging as we speak and is
going across a similar timeline.
So we have never, ever, ever,like golden age of events is one
thing, but we've never been in,you know, society has never
(42:23):
been in such a you know thatpivoting point in terms of
exponential world.
We are really on theexponential curve now and and
yeah, it's mind blowing and andkind of you know we're all a
little bit worried about it atthe same time.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
I normally summarize at the end of a podcast, but I
think you've absolutely outdoneanything.
I could say that exponentialworld is absolutely it.
And you know, as the famousbook says, feel the fear and do
it anyway.
And you do it tremendously well.
So, mark, thank you, thank youever so much.
I'm going to give you 30seconds to answer one of the
(43:05):
lightning round questions,because I'm conscious that you
and I could talk about trendsliterally until the cows come
home.
So I'll ask this one question,and possibly the hardest,
actually.
But but for you now, at thisstage of your very successful
career you know, liaising withsome of the best in the world
(43:27):
what would you say now is yoursecret to success?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Listening to the customer.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
Great answer Customer always comes first.
I would think like.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I would think like so I would say that.
But to your point on customerand I sorry I've just had a
Christmas party with my team inLondon.
I'm back here in Budapest now,but I would say it's team first,
customer second.
So if you don't have your teamin a good place and they don't
have the competencies and knowhow and tools to be able to do
(44:06):
their jobs, they're never goingto get that customer experience
to that level.
But I think, in terms ofsuccess, ideation of where we're
going and what we need to do,we need to become the customer
defines that and in a really funway.
It's obvious sometimes and then, in a kind of Steve Jobs way,
(44:26):
the customers doesn't know whatit needed until it got a
smartphone, like they didn'tknow they needed an iPhone and
it's not.
It's not to be argued, butsometimes you've got to be, you
know future casting what thecustomer needs, even though they
don't need it.
So so yeah, but I thinklistening to the customer,
(44:47):
that's the best one I can givefor any entrepreneur that's out
there.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Well, I think you're absolutely right and it is to
your point, caveated by havingthe very best emotionally
intelligent team that can tuneinto, into that need.
Yeah, mark, it's been anabsolute pleasure speaking with
you.
For those that would like to relisten to the podcast, share
(45:12):
the podcast, please do so.
You've been listening to thefabulous Mark Coleman, founder
and CEO of Unleash.
Make sure you check them out.
We've joined before in Paris.
It was a superb, superb coupleof days and very excited about
things to come, always nervousand in anticipation of some
brilliant events that are goingto be happening next year.
(45:35):
My name is Layla MackenzieDulles, founder and CEO of
Dialglobal.
You've been listening to theDiverse and Inclusive Leaders
podcast.
You can find us on Apple,spotify or any of your favorite
podcast channels.
Otherwise, visit us atwwwdalglobalorg.
Forward slash podcast.
See you very soon.
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