April 7, 2025 • 23 mins
Legal Bill Review with Tanya Crosse
Shane Dawson of Dinsmore and Shohl, LLP and Jennifer White of Peterson White, LLP interview Tanya Crosse, Director of Legal Spend Management at Epiq Legal Solutions. In this episode we chat about "managed invoice review" otherwise known as "legal bill review", a topic in which most civil defense attorneys are highly invested. Tanya shares tips for practitioners to make the process less stressful as well as some interesting war stories detailing when defense firms fail to follow outside counsel guidelines.
To learn more about DRI and the Workers' Compensation Committee visit www.DRI.org.
#DRILawyer
#DRICommunity
Shane Dawson of Dinsmore and Shohl, LLP and Jennifer White of Peterson White, LLP interview Tanya Crosse, Director of Legal Spend Management at Epiq Legal Solutions. In this episode we chat about "managed invoice review" otherwise known as "legal bill review", a topic in which most civil defense attorneys are highly invested. Tanya shares tips for practitioners to make the process less stressful as well as some interesting war stories detailing when defense firms fail to follow outside counsel guidelines.
To learn more about DRI and the Workers' Compensation Committee visit www.DRI.org.
#DRILawyer
#DRICommunity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome back to another episode of the comp Conversations podcast,
a podcast developed through DRII where we discuss the world
of workers' compensation, exploring issues involving occupational injuries, treatment, claims, management,
and litigation, as well as future trends and emerging issues
in this area of law. My name is Jennifer White,
(00:38):
and I'm here with Shane Dawson, a partner at Dinsmore
and Shoal in Ohio. We are delighted to have Tania Cross,
the director of Legal spin Management at Epic Legal Solutions,
with us today on the podcast to talk about legal
spin management and managed invoice review. Tanna has over twenty
years of experience in the legal industry as a managing
(01:01):
and in house attorney focusing on insurance defense. She's an
insurance industry expert and a legal spin analysis pein across.
Welcome to Conversations. Thank you so much, Thanks for having me.
It's pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Anya, It's great to have you with us today. Could
you start off just by telling our audience a little
bit about your own background and education, how you got
into this field.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Oh sure, I'd love to. I'm a recovering, practicing attorney.
I would say that I practice primarily insurance defense, and
of that mostly workers compensation insurance defense, in both my
home country of Canada.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
As well as the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I received my undergraduate degree in English and history from
Mount Allison University and my.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Law degree from the University of New Brunswick, both in Canada.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I was admitted to practice in two provinces in Canada,
in Ontario and in New Brunswick, and when I moved
to the United States twenty five years ago, I was
admitted to practice in Tennessee, where.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
I still maintained my license.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Since stopping practice, I've worked in house for a workers
compensation insurance carrier as well as a large commercial broker,
before finding my way to the legal operations field where
I am now and to EPIC, where I've been.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Fortunate enough to be for the past five years.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Now.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Now at EPIC, what kind of services are you focused
on personally? And then more broadly, what are kind of
the range of services that EPIC handles well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
EPIC is a large legal service provider and we work
with some of the top companies in the world, the
top banks, the top businesses. My role in that is
the director of Legal Spend management is to lead a
team of experienced attorneys and law firm professionals who help
(03:06):
law departments primarily without all aspects of their legal spend management.
We focus mostly on outside council management, of which legal
invoice review is a component. We consult with law departments.
We start with assessing their costs. We implement the right
(03:27):
solutions for whatever their issues are that brought them to
us or help we manage their spend activity, and we
measure the results.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Now, as defense attorneys, we are primarily interested in what
your company calls managed invoice review, and I believe defense
attorneys sometimes sure. Further to this is legal bill review.
What are some of the main goals of managed invoice review?
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Well, I totally.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Relate to to the invoice review interest as a former
practicing attorney, the main goals of invoice review program from
a company law department's perspective are primarily cost control, but
also they're interested in accuracy and compliance with outside council
(04:18):
guidelines or any other in place policies they might have
with their outside council. They really come to us because
they want to get that transparency into their legal spending
and the types of services that are being utilized. They
want information about supplier management, and a key component is
(04:40):
they want that data analysis and reporting about their legal
spend and advice and assistance with process improvements. With law departments,
we see that they are experiencing pressure to have to
do more with less, and a managed invoice review program
(05:03):
can free up their in house resources for their highest
invest use.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Within the company.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
How specifically do you make this happen for your clients
in your role?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Our role really starts with a consultation with the client
on areas of improvement that they see and that we
see for them, and that can be.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Things like automation.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
We definitely do in the legal invoice review sphere detailed
invoice scrutiny for them. We provide that data analytics, We
help them implement tracking and reporting tools to help them
take what they've learned with us.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
And we put in place forward.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
We often actually start when we're dealing with a law
department before any of that, with optimizing the outside billing
guidelines themselves to make sure that they are up with
what the current industry standards are, and we make recommendations
for any improvement there and we help the law department
(06:08):
by doing audits and reviews either of programs or providers
or specific points in time. We benchmark against industry standards,
and we also provide a training and education component for
internal and external stakeholders.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Tonya, I think we're lucky to have somebody on here
who like you, who has kind of been on both
sides of this coin, right, I mean, yeah, practiced in
the area of workers job and now you're seeing it
from the other side, looking at the legal spend that's
right now you noticed. Are there any unique challenges when
(06:49):
it comes to billing in workers compensation maybe versus some
other areas of litigation.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Workers compensation cases do differ in a couple of key
ways from other areas of practice and other areas of
insurance defense, and that's primarily due to the regulatory framework
in which workers compensation exists. Due to those state regulations,
there are sometimes less flexibility on the workers compensation practitioner
(07:19):
than other insurance practitioners in terms of the way they
build I would also say that workers compensation billing may
focus more on task specific billing, like standardized tasks like
completing state forms or attending hearings, rather than the broader,
more subjective tasks that other types of insurance defense work
(07:43):
focus on, and this can lead to issues with the
repetitive nature of what the practitioners does as part of
their task can translate into billing that is often seen
as more administrative than legal, but really it's just the
(08:07):
nature of the beast because of the regulatory framework in
which they operate. I think the biggest issue though, for
the workers compensation practitioner is the client expectation. Because insurers
and employers are cost sensitive to workers' compensation claims because
of the sheer volume of compensation claims as opposed to
(08:31):
other types of litigated claims, it can sometimes result in
a more rigorous invoice scrutiny compared to other insurance defense cases.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
So you mentioned that about the different jurisdictions, do you
ever see where whether it's the expectations on the part
of say a national client who's dealing with workers' compensation
in a lot of different states, or even those guysuidelines
that maybe you're helping to craft, are those ever adjusted
(09:06):
by jurisdiction or those expectations being adjusted by jurisdiction. Just
with that understanding that you know one state may be
so different from another in terms of that regulatory system.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, I mean I would love the answer to be yes,
but more often than not, that answer is no. There's
typically one set of outside council guidelines that is sort
of broadly applied across jurisdictions, and that is something that
we have counseled on in the past that you know,
you cannot judge a case that is in one jurisdiction
(09:44):
against the billing practices of another because they're it's apples
and oranges. I mean, they are not the same at all.
What might be required someplace might be completely optional someplace else.
So that type of individualization and outside council guidelines is.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
Something we typically do not see.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Well, that's been my experience. I often feel like a
square peg in the proverbial round hole when it comes
when we look at those guidelines. You know, I think
with legal bill review, at least that aspect of it.
You know, defense attorneys and I'm sure you experience this
(10:26):
always tend to have kind of this maybe less love
and more hate relationship with it. Are there are there
tips that you've learned now being on this other side
that you can give to defense lawyers about how to
make that process a little less stressful.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, sure, love, I'd love to help out.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And let me start by saying that, by and large,
most lawyers do a really good job with legal billing.
I always remind my clients, my corporate clients, that they
have it easy. They really have one set, typically of
outside council guidelines to manage and keep up with, where
their council have dozens, sometimes hundreds to manage and comply
(11:05):
with across their client groups. And I will also say
this that most of our clients are corporate clients come
to us and they tell us that they really respect
and appreciate their counsel and particularly the ones that have.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Been with them through thick and thin.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
So while they might be coming to us to look
at their billing, more often than not, by a long
stretch date, we hear about the respect and the admiration
that the companies who hire attorneys have for the firms
that work for them. But of course we would not
have a job if that was always the case. So
(11:42):
I would I would say I would in a general term,
I would start by assessing what your where your firm
is now in terms of legal bill review, what your
pain points are, and what you hope to improve, and
a good place to start is by establishing a standard,
repeatable review protocol that includes regularly checking for compliance with
(12:05):
outside council guidelines.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
It does not hurt.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
At all, and certainly if you haven't spoken with your
billing attorney with your client in a while, schedule a
call to make sure to clarify any uncertainties and keep
those lines of communication open.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Internally to your.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Law firm, do regular audits to ensure that you're complying
with your practices, and I would especially check for red flags.
And those things are the items that are most often
caught in a legal invoice review, and that it would
be to start with. Block billing, vague time entrues, inappropriate
(12:49):
timekeepers for certain tasks, lack of supporting documentation, billing for
firm overhead billing for multiple timekeepers that are at ten
to the same task. Untimely invoicing is one that is
surprisingly common rejected invoices as you know, it can add
(13:11):
like sixty days or more to an already slow payment process.
Good legal billing, you know, it's not only good for
the clients that we serve, but good for law firms too.
Better billing would increase realization for firms. Hygiene errors like
things that can be easily corrected, are usually violations that
(13:33):
would be paid if they were written correctly. And here
I would say just a couple of pro tips would
be Attorneys sometimes tend to bury the lead of what
they're doing. If you're reviewing a document that comes from
opposing council, it's not relevant to say that you downloaded
it from.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
A source.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
It turns in an attorney's analytical task into something that
sounds like it's administrative. So maybe don't add that, or
if you feel the need to add it, put its
secondary lead with what the legal work is. I know,
when I was billing, we always thought there were magic
(14:18):
words like you couldn't say this, you couldn't say that,
And I don't see that as necessarily the case. But
I would say, and this is really more of a
junior attorney or staffing issue. We see a lot of
billing in defense field, particularly that says, you know, I
did this task at the request of JSW or whoever
(14:42):
internally to the law firm. That's almost entirely irrelevant to
the person who is reviewing the bill or to your
client that might be important for you and for your
data collection purposes. Who told somebody internally to do a task?
But it just sounds like a lot of internal communication
(15:04):
and it's not important to what was done for your client.
So those are just two things.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Thank you, so without breaching anybody's confidentiality, and you know
we'll protect the identity of the guilty here. Do you
have any memorable instances where EPIC helped assist carriers with
saving large amounts of money or discovering even like bad
(15:34):
actors you know among defense billers?
Speaker 5 (15:39):
Yeah, oh for sure.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I mean would I even be an attorney if I
didn't have a war story? But I most of the
savings that we accomplished for our clients are through meat
and potatoes.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Methods of the things I.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Talked about earlier, right sizing the right resource with the
right with the right person.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
However, there are some there are some stories that I've
can share.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
One is attorneys tend to treat trials like like we
treat calories at Christmas, like all rules are suspended if
I'm in trial and they want their emotional support person
from the law firm, be it a paralegal or whoever,
to accompany them, because you know, isn't it easier when
(16:25):
we have help help that's typically not billable. The worst
example that we saw of that is a firm that
was in They were in trial for more than a week,
and they essentially converted in a staff administrator like somebody
who would not normally be billing hourly, into a virtual
(16:48):
butler for them for the week of the trial. He
drove the attorneys back and forth between the court and
the firm, and kept the supplied with food and beverage
and just essentially catered to their every need, all of
which was built hourly to the client. And of course
(17:09):
that's that's nice, but not a billable I'm sure it
must have been very handy to have.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Oh and of course they got billed for the.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Everybody's favorite snacks and drinks as well. Yeah, we get
that that's a high pressure environment and it's go time
for the firm, and it's a high high importance for everyone,
but that doesn't mean that the rules of play are
suspended and you can't just.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Spend like there's no tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
The excuse came back that allowing this person to drive
the attorneys made them available to do work while in transit,
but that must have been for another client because all
of the attorney billing time was built to attendance anyway.
So I'm not sure how that worked out.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
A trial, Butler, though, Yeah, he doesn't want a trial.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
Butler, right, you get you a trial. Butler.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
We've had an attorney accompanying an expert to a site
inspection who felt the need to take his own pictures
at the site inspection. So, of course, like you would,
went into costco, purchased the latest model iPhone at full
retail cost, took six pictures, and build the entire cost
of the iPhone to the client. It's a choice. It
(18:36):
wasn't a good choice, but he made it. This is
not an ethic example, but this one is too good
to not share. A law firm celebrated the conclusion of
a matter on which they had done very well for
a client by inviting the client to an all hands
dinner banquet. Trophies were awarded to the various attorneys in
(18:59):
the firm, and the entire cost of the banquet, the food,
the drink, and the trophies was built back to the client.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Well, just a little bit you had mentioned before, and
I know epic is involved, well, they incorporate AI into
their services. A bunch you had mentioned before saying there's
no actual magic words that are flagged.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
But how does AI?
Speaker 4 (19:34):
How does it work with legal the review and incorporate
with that?
Speaker 5 (19:38):
How does it assist you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Sure, well, depending on the case, AI can be a
big part of the managed and invoice review process, from
the data extraction and validation portion of the exercise to
the machine learning models that streamline the review. EPIC has
a full team of multi disip leinary team of lawyers,
(20:01):
data scientists, legal operation consultants. We work together to give
insights to our clients. But I would say, like the
practice of law, it's a people business and at the
end of the day, we are led by the experts
in the field who are dedicated to solving the problems
for our clients. So you know, the output from a model,
(20:25):
for example, is always reviewed by experts in the field
who can add that nuance, who can maybe add some
contextual understanding to what AI has helped us with.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Should defense lawyers be concerned about AI replacing their jobs
or if not, what are ways we can embrace this
new technology. I know that's a big concern for defense
lawyers right now.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah, I mean it's a common it's a common apprehension
that I think a lot of folks have. But people
have been forging the demise of lawyers since there have
been lawyers, and I think AI is not the beginning
of the end. It can automate certain tasks, of course,
but AI lacks the nuanced to understanding and critical thinking
(21:13):
that lawyers provide. Lawyers should be encouraged to find ways though,
that AI can enhance their efficiency and allow them to
focus on more complex challenges. There's a lot of good
software out there that can help in areas like legal
research to automated searching technology, assisted review of documents for
(21:37):
discoverable or relevant information, contracting and legal document analysis, and
even legal billing has AI tools. My general suggestion is
to allow the AI tool to do the first round
of heavy lifting before you dive in with your expertise
(22:00):
to check the results to finish the project. It's it's
almost always easier to edit a document than to stare
at a blank page, for example, and it's really helpful
most in most instances in not getting lost in the weeds,
which I think attorneys can have a predisposition to doing so. No,
(22:24):
AI is not going to replace your job, but hopefully
it's going to make it a lot more enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Panya, we want to thank you for being with us
today and sharing some of this with us. If folks
in our audience want to get in touch with you,
what's the best way to reach you.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email
is probably the easiest way at T cross at epic
Global dot com. That's T c R O S S
E at Epic E p i Q global dot com.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Thank you so much, Thanks so much, us a pleasure
about things
Welcome back to another episode of the comp Conversations podcast,
a podcast developed through DRII where we discuss the world
of workers' compensation, exploring issues involving occupational injuries, treatment, claims, management,
and litigation, as well as future trends and emerging issues
in this area of law. My name is Jennifer White,
(00:38):
and I'm here with Shane Dawson, a partner at Dinsmore
and Shoal in Ohio. We are delighted to have Tania Cross,
the director of Legal spin Management at Epic Legal Solutions,
with us today on the podcast to talk about legal
spin management and managed invoice review. Tanna has over twenty
years of experience in the legal industry as a managing
(01:01):
and in house attorney focusing on insurance defense. She's an
insurance industry expert and a legal spin analysis pein across.
Welcome to Conversations. Thank you so much, Thanks for having me.
It's pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Anya, It's great to have you with us today. Could
you start off just by telling our audience a little
bit about your own background and education, how you got
into this field.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Oh sure, I'd love to. I'm a recovering, practicing attorney.
I would say that I practice primarily insurance defense, and
of that mostly workers compensation insurance defense, in both my
home country of Canada.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
As well as the United States.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I received my undergraduate degree in English and history from
Mount Allison University and my.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Law degree from the University of New Brunswick, both in Canada.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I was admitted to practice in two provinces in Canada,
in Ontario and in New Brunswick, and when I moved
to the United States twenty five years ago, I was
admitted to practice in Tennessee, where.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
I still maintained my license.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Since stopping practice, I've worked in house for a workers
compensation insurance carrier as well as a large commercial broker,
before finding my way to the legal operations field where
I am now and to EPIC, where I've been.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Fortunate enough to be for the past five years.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Now.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Now at EPIC, what kind of services are you focused
on personally? And then more broadly, what are kind of
the range of services that EPIC handles well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
EPIC is a large legal service provider and we work
with some of the top companies in the world, the
top banks, the top businesses. My role in that is
the director of Legal Spend management is to lead a
team of experienced attorneys and law firm professionals who help
(03:06):
law departments primarily without all aspects of their legal spend management.
We focus mostly on outside council management, of which legal
invoice review is a component. We consult with law departments.
We start with assessing their costs. We implement the right
(03:27):
solutions for whatever their issues are that brought them to
us or help we manage their spend activity, and we
measure the results.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
Now, as defense attorneys, we are primarily interested in what
your company calls managed invoice review, and I believe defense
attorneys sometimes sure. Further to this is legal bill review.
What are some of the main goals of managed invoice review?
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Well, I totally.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Relate to to the invoice review interest as a former
practicing attorney, the main goals of invoice review program from
a company law department's perspective are primarily cost control, but
also they're interested in accuracy and compliance with outside council
(04:18):
guidelines or any other in place policies they might have
with their outside council. They really come to us because
they want to get that transparency into their legal spending
and the types of services that are being utilized. They
want information about supplier management, and a key component is
(04:40):
they want that data analysis and reporting about their legal
spend and advice and assistance with process improvements. With law departments,
we see that they are experiencing pressure to have to
do more with less, and a managed invoice review program
(05:03):
can free up their in house resources for their highest
invest use.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Within the company.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
How specifically do you make this happen for your clients
in your role?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Our role really starts with a consultation with the client
on areas of improvement that they see and that we
see for them, and that can be.
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Things like automation.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
We definitely do in the legal invoice review sphere detailed
invoice scrutiny for them. We provide that data analytics, We
help them implement tracking and reporting tools to help them
take what they've learned with us.
Speaker 5 (05:45):
And we put in place forward.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
We often actually start when we're dealing with a law
department before any of that, with optimizing the outside billing
guidelines themselves to make sure that they are up with
what the current industry standards are, and we make recommendations
for any improvement there and we help the law department
(06:08):
by doing audits and reviews either of programs or providers
or specific points in time. We benchmark against industry standards,
and we also provide a training and education component for
internal and external stakeholders.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Tonya, I think we're lucky to have somebody on here
who like you, who has kind of been on both
sides of this coin, right, I mean, yeah, practiced in
the area of workers job and now you're seeing it
from the other side, looking at the legal spend that's
right now you noticed. Are there any unique challenges when
(06:49):
it comes to billing in workers compensation maybe versus some
other areas of litigation.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Workers compensation cases do differ in a couple of key
ways from other areas of practice and other areas of
insurance defense, and that's primarily due to the regulatory framework
in which workers compensation exists. Due to those state regulations,
there are sometimes less flexibility on the workers compensation practitioner
(07:19):
than other insurance practitioners in terms of the way they
build I would also say that workers compensation billing may
focus more on task specific billing, like standardized tasks like
completing state forms or attending hearings, rather than the broader,
more subjective tasks that other types of insurance defense work
(07:43):
focus on, and this can lead to issues with the
repetitive nature of what the practitioners does as part of
their task can translate into billing that is often seen
as more administrative than legal, but really it's just the
(08:07):
nature of the beast because of the regulatory framework in
which they operate. I think the biggest issue though, for
the workers compensation practitioner is the client expectation. Because insurers
and employers are cost sensitive to workers' compensation claims because
of the sheer volume of compensation claims as opposed to
(08:31):
other types of litigated claims, it can sometimes result in
a more rigorous invoice scrutiny compared to other insurance defense cases.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
So you mentioned that about the different jurisdictions, do you
ever see where whether it's the expectations on the part
of say a national client who's dealing with workers' compensation
in a lot of different states, or even those guysuidelines
that maybe you're helping to craft, are those ever adjusted
(09:06):
by jurisdiction or those expectations being adjusted by jurisdiction. Just
with that understanding that you know one state may be
so different from another in terms of that regulatory system.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, I mean I would love the answer to be yes,
but more often than not, that answer is no. There's
typically one set of outside council guidelines that is sort
of broadly applied across jurisdictions, and that is something that
we have counseled on in the past that you know,
you cannot judge a case that is in one jurisdiction
(09:44):
against the billing practices of another because they're it's apples
and oranges. I mean, they are not the same at all.
What might be required someplace might be completely optional someplace else.
So that type of individualization and outside council guidelines is.
Speaker 5 (10:02):
Something we typically do not see.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Well, that's been my experience. I often feel like a
square peg in the proverbial round hole when it comes
when we look at those guidelines. You know, I think
with legal bill review, at least that aspect of it.
You know, defense attorneys and I'm sure you experience this
(10:26):
always tend to have kind of this maybe less love
and more hate relationship with it. Are there are there
tips that you've learned now being on this other side
that you can give to defense lawyers about how to
make that process a little less stressful.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, sure, love, I'd love to help out.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
And let me start by saying that, by and large,
most lawyers do a really good job with legal billing.
I always remind my clients, my corporate clients, that they
have it easy. They really have one set, typically of
outside council guidelines to manage and keep up with, where
their council have dozens, sometimes hundreds to manage and comply
(11:05):
with across their client groups. And I will also say
this that most of our clients are corporate clients come
to us and they tell us that they really respect
and appreciate their counsel and particularly the ones that have.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Been with them through thick and thin.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
So while they might be coming to us to look
at their billing, more often than not, by a long
stretch date, we hear about the respect and the admiration
that the companies who hire attorneys have for the firms
that work for them. But of course we would not
have a job if that was always the case. So
(11:42):
I would I would say I would in a general term,
I would start by assessing what your where your firm
is now in terms of legal bill review, what your
pain points are, and what you hope to improve, and
a good place to start is by establishing a standard,
repeatable review protocol that includes regularly checking for compliance with
(12:05):
outside council guidelines.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
It does not hurt.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
At all, and certainly if you haven't spoken with your
billing attorney with your client in a while, schedule a
call to make sure to clarify any uncertainties and keep
those lines of communication open.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Internally to your.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Law firm, do regular audits to ensure that you're complying
with your practices, and I would especially check for red flags.
And those things are the items that are most often
caught in a legal invoice review, and that it would
be to start with. Block billing, vague time entrues, inappropriate
(12:49):
timekeepers for certain tasks, lack of supporting documentation, billing for
firm overhead billing for multiple timekeepers that are at ten
to the same task. Untimely invoicing is one that is
surprisingly common rejected invoices as you know, it can add
(13:11):
like sixty days or more to an already slow payment process.
Good legal billing, you know, it's not only good for
the clients that we serve, but good for law firms too.
Better billing would increase realization for firms. Hygiene errors like
things that can be easily corrected, are usually violations that
(13:33):
would be paid if they were written correctly. And here
I would say just a couple of pro tips would
be Attorneys sometimes tend to bury the lead of what
they're doing. If you're reviewing a document that comes from
opposing council, it's not relevant to say that you downloaded
it from.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
A source.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
It turns in an attorney's analytical task into something that
sounds like it's administrative. So maybe don't add that, or
if you feel the need to add it, put its
secondary lead with what the legal work is. I know,
when I was billing, we always thought there were magic
(14:18):
words like you couldn't say this, you couldn't say that,
And I don't see that as necessarily the case. But
I would say, and this is really more of a
junior attorney or staffing issue. We see a lot of
billing in defense field, particularly that says, you know, I
did this task at the request of JSW or whoever
(14:42):
internally to the law firm. That's almost entirely irrelevant to
the person who is reviewing the bill or to your
client that might be important for you and for your
data collection purposes. Who told somebody internally to do a task?
But it just sounds like a lot of internal communication
(15:04):
and it's not important to what was done for your client.
So those are just two things.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Thank you, so without breaching anybody's confidentiality, and you know
we'll protect the identity of the guilty here. Do you
have any memorable instances where EPIC helped assist carriers with
saving large amounts of money or discovering even like bad
(15:34):
actors you know among defense billers?
Speaker 5 (15:39):
Yeah, oh for sure.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
I mean would I even be an attorney if I
didn't have a war story? But I most of the
savings that we accomplished for our clients are through meat
and potatoes.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
Methods of the things I.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Talked about earlier, right sizing the right resource with the
right with the right person.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
However, there are some there are some stories that I've
can share.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
One is attorneys tend to treat trials like like we
treat calories at Christmas, like all rules are suspended if
I'm in trial and they want their emotional support person
from the law firm, be it a paralegal or whoever,
to accompany them, because you know, isn't it easier when
(16:25):
we have help help that's typically not billable. The worst
example that we saw of that is a firm that
was in They were in trial for more than a week,
and they essentially converted in a staff administrator like somebody
who would not normally be billing hourly, into a virtual
(16:48):
butler for them for the week of the trial. He
drove the attorneys back and forth between the court and
the firm, and kept the supplied with food and beverage
and just essentially catered to their every need, all of
which was built hourly to the client. And of course
(17:09):
that's that's nice, but not a billable I'm sure it
must have been very handy to have.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Oh and of course they got billed for the.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Everybody's favorite snacks and drinks as well. Yeah, we get
that that's a high pressure environment and it's go time
for the firm, and it's a high high importance for everyone,
but that doesn't mean that the rules of play are
suspended and you can't just.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Spend like there's no tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
The excuse came back that allowing this person to drive
the attorneys made them available to do work while in transit,
but that must have been for another client because all
of the attorney billing time was built to attendance anyway.
So I'm not sure how that worked out.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
A trial, Butler, though, Yeah, he doesn't want a trial.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
Butler, right, you get you a trial. Butler.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
We've had an attorney accompanying an expert to a site
inspection who felt the need to take his own pictures
at the site inspection. So, of course, like you would,
went into costco, purchased the latest model iPhone at full
retail cost, took six pictures, and build the entire cost
of the iPhone to the client. It's a choice. It
(18:36):
wasn't a good choice, but he made it. This is
not an ethic example, but this one is too good
to not share. A law firm celebrated the conclusion of
a matter on which they had done very well for
a client by inviting the client to an all hands
dinner banquet. Trophies were awarded to the various attorneys in
(18:59):
the firm, and the entire cost of the banquet, the food,
the drink, and the trophies was built back to the client.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
That's great.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
Well, just a little bit you had mentioned before, and
I know epic is involved, well, they incorporate AI into
their services. A bunch you had mentioned before saying there's
no actual magic words that are flagged.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
But how does AI?
Speaker 4 (19:34):
How does it work with legal the review and incorporate
with that?
Speaker 5 (19:38):
How does it assist you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Sure, well, depending on the case, AI can be a
big part of the managed and invoice review process, from
the data extraction and validation portion of the exercise to
the machine learning models that streamline the review. EPIC has
a full team of multi disip leinary team of lawyers,
(20:01):
data scientists, legal operation consultants. We work together to give
insights to our clients. But I would say, like the
practice of law, it's a people business and at the
end of the day, we are led by the experts
in the field who are dedicated to solving the problems
for our clients. So you know, the output from a model,
(20:25):
for example, is always reviewed by experts in the field
who can add that nuance, who can maybe add some
contextual understanding to what AI has helped us with.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Should defense lawyers be concerned about AI replacing their jobs
or if not, what are ways we can embrace this
new technology. I know that's a big concern for defense
lawyers right now.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah, I mean it's a common it's a common apprehension
that I think a lot of folks have. But people
have been forging the demise of lawyers since there have
been lawyers, and I think AI is not the beginning
of the end. It can automate certain tasks, of course,
but AI lacks the nuanced to understanding and critical thinking
(21:13):
that lawyers provide. Lawyers should be encouraged to find ways though,
that AI can enhance their efficiency and allow them to
focus on more complex challenges. There's a lot of good
software out there that can help in areas like legal
research to automated searching technology, assisted review of documents for
(21:37):
discoverable or relevant information, contracting and legal document analysis, and
even legal billing has AI tools. My general suggestion is
to allow the AI tool to do the first round
of heavy lifting before you dive in with your expertise
(22:00):
to check the results to finish the project. It's it's
almost always easier to edit a document than to stare
at a blank page, for example, and it's really helpful
most in most instances in not getting lost in the weeds,
which I think attorneys can have a predisposition to doing so. No,
(22:24):
AI is not going to replace your job, but hopefully
it's going to make it a lot more enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Panya, we want to thank you for being with us
today and sharing some of this with us. If folks
in our audience want to get in touch with you,
what's the best way to reach you.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I'd love to hear from you. Drop me an email
is probably the easiest way at T cross at epic
Global dot com. That's T c R O S S
E at Epic E p i Q global dot com.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
Thank you so much, Thanks so much, us a pleasure
about things
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