May 19, 2025 • 29 mins
Do's and Don'ts with Cambi McLain-Johns
Shane Dawson of Dinsmore and Shohl, LLP and Jennifer White of Peterson White, LLP interview Cambi McLain-Johns, a regional WC Complex Claims Manager with Erie Insurance Exchange. In this episode we chat about the Law Firm Do's and Don'ts of interreacting with carriers and insureds. We also discuss the importance of communication and mentorship as well as expound how law firms are able to grow their client base and foster loyalty with a few simple tips.
To learn more about DRI and the Workers' Compensation Committee visit www.DRI.org.
#DRILawyer
#DRICommunity
Shane Dawson of Dinsmore and Shohl, LLP and Jennifer White of Peterson White, LLP interview Cambi McLain-Johns, a regional WC Complex Claims Manager with Erie Insurance Exchange. In this episode we chat about the Law Firm Do's and Don'ts of interreacting with carriers and insureds. We also discuss the importance of communication and mentorship as well as expound how law firms are able to grow their client base and foster loyalty with a few simple tips.
To learn more about DRI and the Workers' Compensation Committee visit www.DRI.org.
#DRILawyer
#DRICommunity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome back to another episode of Comp Conversations podcast, a
podcast developed through DRI where we discuss the world of
workers compensation, exploring issues and evolving occupational injuries treatment, claims,
management and litigation, as well as future trends and emerging
issues in this area of law. My name is Jennifer
(00:38):
White and I'm here with Shane Dawson, a partner with
Dinsmore and Sholin Ohio. We're delighted to have Cammy McLean,
John's of Eerie Insurance exchange with us on today's podcast
to talk about law firm does and does. Camby is
currently a regional workers Complex Claims manager with Eerie, and
she's been in the industry and the workers comb business
(01:00):
for over twenty years. She has experience in adjusting claims,
managing litigation, providing team leadership, and building and maintaining relationships
with various stakeholders, as well as ensuring high levels of
customers satisfaction for Eerie's insured Camby, Welcome to Comp Conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you, Camby. It's great to meet you and to
have you here. I guess just to start tell us
and the audience a little bit about your background in
workers comp.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Sure so I've worked in the workers comp field for
twenty six years, did some paralegal work prior to my
current employer, which is ERIE Insurance, And when I started
with them, I become a medical only adjuster and worked
my way up to a complex adjuster and then in
(01:51):
the last ten years into leadership.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Okay, and tell us a little bit about that. What's
your current role at ERIE.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I'm a complex claims managers, so I have four supervisors
that manage adjuster teams Under me. We have twenty six
adjusters and our territory covers Southeast Division for ARE Insurance,
which is West Virginia, Virginia, DC, and Maryland.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Okay, well that's a that's a pretty big area. So specifically,
what kind of what kind of interaction do you have
with with law firms on a daily basis?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Currently I don't do data base or you know, every
day type of interactions, but I do work at a
higher level. So if I get requests from my direct
reports that someone needs a rate increase, or if we
see billing issues or service issues, then I usually step
in at that point and also work to recruit new
(02:53):
firms when that's needed.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay, So some of the some of the situations that
require a little more involvement are uh, maybe maybe a
little more serious. It sounds like or when you have
to you have to step in correct, Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Right, Canvy. We're here obviously to talk about some dos
and dontes for law firms. One that comes up a
lot is communication. That's actually one of the most frequent
bar complaints that attorney seat, and usually that does have
to do with individual clients. But can you give us
a synopsis of why it's important to have that clear
and timely communication between those lawyers and the claim supervisors
(03:34):
or claims handlers rather.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Sorry about that? Click that. So you know, we always
want to keep up to date on our files. We
want to make sure that you're servicing our customers and
timely you know, can be a lot of things. It
depends on the file. So getting some customization about how
(04:01):
our defense works with us on individual files or maybe
even individual adjusters.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Is there ever an example of too much communication?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, we don't really want a recap each month of
the file. If you have a good adjuster, they should
know the file, so you really shouldn't have to regurgitate
everything that's happened in it. So that's one thing we
don't like to see and it doesn't really make us
make sense from an expense standpoint either. So an adjuster
should be able to recognize that and kind of put
(04:35):
put a halt to that if that is what's occurring.
But that would be too much communication.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
How often generally should the firm be communicating with the insured.
We talk about the adjuster a little bit, but how
much should they be communicating with the insured?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
So I think the most important point of contact is
the initial contact. Policyholders get very anxious about getting contacted
by an attorney, so they don't understand the situation and
they don't know the business like we do, and we
kind of take it for granted that everyone understands. So
I believe the adjuster really should do the first part
(05:15):
of it by explaining to the policy holder that they're
going to be contacted by an attorney and giving them
a little context behind what's going to happen. And then
I really like to see the attorney do a voice
to voice contact initially if possible, and that way they
have an opportunity to educate the policyholder and what's going
to go on, get an action plan, set expectations, that
(05:40):
the policy holder may have, such as getting them materials,
keep the file moving timely, such as that, and then
really you as an attorney can work with that customer
based on their expectations. So they may not want any
contact until the thing's settled, or they may want a
monthly report. So I think you all do a lot
(06:03):
to create what that cadence should.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Be excellent And that's a great example of a good
communication with the insured. What other kinds of communication practices
have you found that are effective in claims handling with
where attorneys are involved.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Well, you know, again that expectation if they get a
letter where they need to maybe send in some material,
making sure that they understand how important that material is
to move the claims forward and how important it is
not to have those claims sitting open on them and
(06:42):
that they're a part of that. Just really making sure
you're educating them throughout the process and with the adjuster,
letting them know when you've had issues with the policyholder.
We want to write good risk at insurance companies, and
if we find that customers aren't being cooperative in the
(07:02):
process that we need to happen, then it's good for
us to know that, so I'd like the attorneys to
communicate that to us when that comes up.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Canby. You made a great point about how kind of
that that cadence of communication and what an individual ensured
needs is it really varies. I mean, some want to
be involved and some, like you said, may want to
put all that off on on the uh the adjuster
(07:34):
and just tell me when it's over. But there's got
to be some examples that you've seen in your career
of miscommunication. So what kind of what kind of pitfalls
do you see and if you can make any recommendations
about how how attorneys might be able to avoid some
of those.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
The one I see the most is kind of what
I mentioned earlier is the customer gets a letter from
the attorney and a lot of times they don't even
understand that that letter is their attorney. They think that
some other attorneys reaching out and going to sue them,
so they get very confused about that. You know, we
have some policyholders that are very versed in workers comp
(08:21):
and they can handle it well and go forward. But
we also have we write some mom and pop type
businesses or contractors and this may be the first time
they've ever had a claim. So really, you know, just
getting a letter out of the blues from an attorney
can be very concerning for them. So that's why I
say I like that voice to voice in the beginning,
and also that adjuster making sure that they're educating that
(08:44):
policyholder on an attorney is going to be contacting you.
We really need you to work with these people.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Okay, any without revealing any names to protect the guilty,
any impacts that you've seen from them, these type of
miscommunications that have resulted in maybe significant issues for a
law firm and or their their client.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Well, I have had instances. I mean, I'm lucky to
work with some really good defense firms, so that's been
a plus throughout my career. But customers, when these things
do happen, either the attorney's not getting back to them,
or maybe they've miscommunicated something to the customer or not
(09:31):
educated the customer and the customers misunderstood what's going on.
It really causes that customer to lose trust, not only
in the law firm but the carriers. Well, because we've
hired you to represent them, so they will come back
to us, or they will go to their agent and say,
you know, hey, they caught me off guard, or even
(09:54):
maybe they feel blindsided by the situation, and that really
leads to that customer complaining and then you get bad reviews.
You know, your reputations not great with maybe even the
maybe associations or businesses in that area that that person
may communicate with. So just making sure that the communications
(10:18):
clear and we're educating those policyholders on what's going on
step by step.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Great advice. I want to shift a little bit to
from just communication in general to maybe more specifically into
like case management. Can you give our audience maybe some
strategies or tips for proactive case management to avoid delays,
avoid complications down the road.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So this has kind of been my practice, and as
I've mentored different adjusters throughout the years, I kind of
encouraged this. But I like to have touch points with
my defense attorney. So you know, it may be that
one time in the month when I call and where
are we at in this file and what's going on
(11:09):
in that file? And you know that one's not been active,
it's nothing needs to be done on that. Let's update
the action plan on this one. Different files, but getting
it all done in one interaction. You have a lot
of phone calls to return. We have a lot of
phone calls to return. So setting aside that time to
really focus on that case load of not only the
(11:32):
adjuster but the defense attorney has always been a go
to for me, and it really reduces confusion and time
for the adjuster and the attorney.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Okay, can you speak to what you see as maybe
some benefits of early intervention and regularly following up on claims.
Maybe that leads to being able to wrap up a
case ear than you might otherwise.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Well, I mean, the good communication leads to great service.
You know, we're areas above all in service. That's our philosophy,
and we want the same out of our business partners.
So you communicating good with our client just helps you.
They're also your customer, and I'm also your customers. So
(12:25):
when I know you're communicating with my policy holder and
they're happy with your service, then that just makes me
that more happy with your service. So, you know, I
like to try to avoid over communicating in emails. You know,
text is not always the greatest way to communicate with
our policy holders, and it becomes kind of a time
(12:47):
suck for adjusters and attorneys trying to address every single
file with a different email, and those have to be
documented and loaded in systems and so forth, and it's
not really an advantage to expense management.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
What kind of switching firms a little bit, and we've
kind of touched on some of this, But one of
our audience's concerns, obviously, is that they want to build
strong relationships with their customers. They want to build strong
relationships with the insurance company and to foster those relationships.
What are some other ways that they can do that?
Besides I know we've talked about communication, but are there
(13:26):
any other ways that you can think of that are
tips you could give our audience.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
So I think you really need to know your audience
and you need to be able to pivot. So there's
some seasoned adjusters out there that like to dictate the
handling of the file and as long as they're within
their bounds, letting them kind of take the reins to
the degree that they can. But you also might have
(13:53):
some very young or green adjusters who don't have a
lot of experience and recognizing that early in helping them
be a mentor to help develop them and do some
knowledge transfer with them. What that will lead to is
is basically they become a career long client, right, Like
they're wanting to stay with you because you all have
(14:19):
mentored them and taught them and they see that and
they become loyal.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
That's great, that's great advice. Talking a little bit, we
did have a section in here to talk about a
little bit about the claim supervisor's input. Lots of times
the attorney will just interact with the adjuster. What's the
value in like reaching out and building relationship with that
claim supervisor and considering their input and perspective.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Well, some managers may have a little bit more input
as into you know, which attorneys are assigned to what files.
I've never really used that in my practice, but I
know that that happens. So you know, just keeping in
contact with that manager so that you know you're on
the forefront of their minds. But kind of as the
(15:11):
previous question is, is knowing those expectations of that manager,
you know, if they're the type of manager that likes
to be involved in a case. Is listening to them,
hearing them out, seeing if their experience or their recommendations
are within compliance, and then maybe even incorporating that into
(15:32):
the action plan. And then you know, repeating that back
to them in a fashion that they understand that you
took something from what they said and are moving forward
with that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
What as And I guess it eerie too, the eerie
the supervisors would look over the bills and and kind
of and that that probably I don't know that if
it goes up to your level any But what kind
of concerns do you see with billing? You know, we
all struggle with the billing. It's a it's a big
(16:07):
part of our job, so it's always at the forefront
of our mind. But what what kind of concerns are
you seeing with law firms as far as billing.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So with our particular system, it is able to flag
certain things. And the biggest one we see that's the
concern is when a particular attorney bills over the limit
of hours for the day, you know, and I've seen
some outrageous examples where there might be five files, but
(16:37):
the attorneys build twenty hours on the same day. Our
system picks that up. And you don't gain a lot
of confidence when you, you know, understand that there's not
twenty five hours in the day and you're being built
for it, you know. But I think there's exceptions to that.
We obviously know there are times around trials or discovery,
(17:00):
you know, depositions, things like that, that there are more
hours needed in a file. But when you see that
come out of a firm, it does give you pause.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
And just leading to the next question, what kind of
worst stories do you have about firms where either they've
done where you've had a pleasant experience, or where they've
done an outstanding job.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I guess the worst thing is not getting communicated with.
You know, we have had situations with firms that they
did not respond to the state. So not only were
they not communicating with the adjuster, but the adjuster was
sending them documents that needed to be filed with the state,
(17:50):
and because they didn't, we got to show cause order
and our process that goes up to our president. And
that's not a good thing when you get the letter
saying you need to go to court and tell why
you didn't do something, and you know, really that was
our attorney's responsibility and it wasn't done. And so that's
(18:12):
those kind of times where I have to step in
and you know, usually talk to the partners about what's
going on and why this would happen, and unfortunately it
might be one attorney, but you start losing confidence in
that whole firm if they're allowing attorneys to do that.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Any good experiences or to stand out in your minds.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh, you know, I mean I kind of feel when
I mentioned earlier earlier about being mentored by attorneys. I've
had many experiences where the ones that I have worked
with have have taught me a lot through not through
the process, but just I guess not lost stuff, is
(19:04):
what I'm trying to say, Like, no, they're not trying
to teach me a lot, but I've learned a lot
about the process through how they did things, how they
saw things, and them keeping me engaged in that and
not just making decisions and moving forward. I think that's
best case scenario for an adjuster, especially one who's wanting
to learn.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Canby. I thought that was going to be the part
where you said, well, all the experiences with Jennifer have
been out the outstanding ones, and which I'm sure they
have been. I want to I want to shift kind
of to a maybe a rapid fire kind of a
lightning round section where because a lot of the lot
(19:47):
of the audience are going to be attorneys. So obviously
they're very interested in any any tips you can give
in some different areas about retaining attorneys, like what what
do attorneys do? What are the best practices that you
see that are going to make it most likely that
(20:08):
you are going to recommend them that you're going to
want to keep them on? So you know, I I'll
ask you these and if you can just give us
kind of whatever whatever the first thing that pops into
your head. So how does Eerie make its decisions about
(20:29):
retaining lawyers? Is that something that's individual or is there
more of a matrix to it?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Well, we request the CV, We love recommendations. We like
to see who that attorney's already working with as far
as carriers, and we do do interviews, and we also
look at the need. What is our need for that
particular area?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Okay, So in terms of experience and expertise, how does that?
How does that factor in? How is how is younger
attorney I were supposed to to break in?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
So that's tricky, you know, I am. I would say
I like to pick on the experience first. I've had
a lot of experience with a certain attorney who is
great in court or a certain attorney who I know
that if I give them this file they can get
(21:25):
it turned over and this thing done quickly, or some
that just use really out of the box negotiation. So
you know, I like to observe that for myself, and
then based on what I see in the file and
what it needs, I will go to that attorney that
I feel has that particular expertise. But I find also
(21:45):
with with inexperienced attorneys, adjusters can do the same as
far as mentoring new attorneys, so that that loyalty that
you gain working with people as a mentor really goes
both ways.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
How does the responsiveness of an attorney or a firm
factor into whether you want to keep them?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Oh, it's a given. I mean, it just has to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That makes sense. Now this is always a sensitive topic
for law firms. But what about billing rates? I mean,
obviously there's a there's a range, But how does that
factor into your decision process?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So we do market research. We look at what firms
are in the area and what they're billing is and
we try to stay within, you know, what's reasonable for
that and we don't look at just one firm. We
look at multiple firms, and it could even be firms
we're not working with. So you know, if I were
an attorney and now we're going to throw out some rates,
(22:47):
I would want to do a little research and see
what was going on in my field in that area.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
It's good advice. Do you see that like networking by
attorneys with different organizations, associations, trade groups, that sort of thing.
Do you find networking is an important factor in any way?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Well, I mean I think like what Jennifer was explaining
about YOURLS association. I know I have had to go
to Jennifer in the past and say, you know, I
had this really weird situation. I have a claim that
I need someone in Georgia. So having that confidence in
the attorney you're working with to be able to recommend
another good attorney. You know, we all like to be competitive,
(23:32):
but we you know, I find that that's good service
because she was giving me what I needed in that moment.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So DRA is a great organization. That's what you're saying
for referrals.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Exactly, that'll be the SoundBite the last one for me
can be. So, how does a firm's reputation and track
record with eerie how does that factor into the recommendations
that you make to insurance.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
So we do track internally, you know, service or issues
and reputation within firms and not just within the work
comp line. But we might have a firm who's been
doing liability for us and we want to bring them
on in comp and I would you know, maybe touch
base with some of those adjusters or managers to see
(24:27):
what their thoughts are. We don't do a lot of
outside digging up of opinions because you know, we're in claims.
We know what kind of opinions get out there when
you know, people don't get exactly what they want, So
we don't put a lot of you know, energy into
(24:47):
looking there, but we certainly do internally keep track of
where we do get good and bad service.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Great.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And then I just want to talk about one last
thing before we wrap up, kind of We were just
talking about emerging trends lately and claim management attorney behaviors.
One thing that's come up a lot is AI. Are
y'all having to Has that affected you yet or do
you see it affecting you in the future.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
We are currently not using any AI in our claims.
You know, there are some data collection issues or groups
that are working with AI on that side, But it
doesn't have anything to do with the claims. We just
have very sensitive information about people and we have a
(25:39):
very strict policy on that. So currently we are not
having any AI and claims.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Do you have a policy about your firms, your legal
firms using AI.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I guess I don't think it's come up yet. I
would say, you know, I would probably expect that to
use it to some degree, especially in research. I mean
there's just a tremendous way to do that or even writing.
I don't have an issue with that. I think the
only thing that may cause an issue would be any
(26:17):
personal data that was being used within the AI, so
you know, social data, birth names, things like that that
are sensitive information.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Just going on to other things and claims managed and
how it's changing. Are you seeing a bigger focus on
mental health or holistic approaches and workers' recovery or things
like that or is that has that affected you all yet?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
So I do see it quite often in my area
I have Maryland and around the DC area, it is
you know, very prevalent. As well as marijuana use. We
are having that it's legalized as there we see it
in New York. So both of those things have increased
(27:05):
in those more populated areas.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
And then one other thing I wanted to ask about,
just as far as how you use law firms, and
as firms become bigger, we see them going into more
and more states, and there's been sometimes a little bit
of a decline in state specific firms. Are you seeing
that in your work or does eerie you have a
preference or multi state firms versus smaller firms.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
We don't really in our you know, in our southern states,
they're big, and sometimes we find that attorneys just don't
want to work outside the area. But we have a
ton of business in say like my territory where we're
in Maryland and we've got West Virginia Panhandle, and we've
(27:57):
got Pennsylvania right there, and you know, we've got Delaware,
so we see a lot of cross there. And in
my experience, even when I was in the Southern territory,
I worked with firms who had multi states and I've
never had an issue, so it doesn't really factor in
(28:19):
in my consideration.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Camby, that's about all the time that we have for
this today. I really want to thank you for coming
on here and sharing some of your insights and thoughts
with us. If if any of our listeners want to
get in touch with you, what's the best way that
they can reach you?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Emails probably the best way, so C A M B
I dot McLain m C L A I N hyphen
John's j O h N s at eerie spelled out
insurance dot com.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Great, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Camby, Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Hemming
Welcome back to another episode of Comp Conversations podcast, a
podcast developed through DRI where we discuss the world of
workers compensation, exploring issues and evolving occupational injuries treatment, claims,
management and litigation, as well as future trends and emerging
issues in this area of law. My name is Jennifer
(00:38):
White and I'm here with Shane Dawson, a partner with
Dinsmore and Sholin Ohio. We're delighted to have Cammy McLean,
John's of Eerie Insurance exchange with us on today's podcast
to talk about law firm does and does. Camby is
currently a regional workers Complex Claims manager with Eerie, and
she's been in the industry and the workers comb business
(01:00):
for over twenty years. She has experience in adjusting claims,
managing litigation, providing team leadership, and building and maintaining relationships
with various stakeholders, as well as ensuring high levels of
customers satisfaction for Eerie's insured Camby, Welcome to Comp Conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Thank you, Camby. It's great to meet you and to
have you here. I guess just to start tell us
and the audience a little bit about your background in
workers comp.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Sure so I've worked in the workers comp field for
twenty six years, did some paralegal work prior to my
current employer, which is ERIE Insurance, And when I started
with them, I become a medical only adjuster and worked
my way up to a complex adjuster and then in
(01:51):
the last ten years into leadership.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Okay, and tell us a little bit about that. What's
your current role at ERIE.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I'm a complex claims managers, so I have four supervisors
that manage adjuster teams Under me. We have twenty six
adjusters and our territory covers Southeast Division for ARE Insurance,
which is West Virginia, Virginia, DC, and Maryland.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Okay, well that's a that's a pretty big area. So specifically,
what kind of what kind of interaction do you have
with with law firms on a daily basis?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Currently I don't do data base or you know, every
day type of interactions, but I do work at a
higher level. So if I get requests from my direct
reports that someone needs a rate increase, or if we
see billing issues or service issues, then I usually step
in at that point and also work to recruit new
(02:53):
firms when that's needed.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Okay, So some of the some of the situations that
require a little more involvement are uh, maybe maybe a
little more serious. It sounds like or when you have
to you have to step in correct, Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Right, Canvy. We're here obviously to talk about some dos
and dontes for law firms. One that comes up a
lot is communication. That's actually one of the most frequent
bar complaints that attorney seat, and usually that does have
to do with individual clients. But can you give us
a synopsis of why it's important to have that clear
and timely communication between those lawyers and the claim supervisors
(03:34):
or claims handlers rather.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Sorry about that? Click that. So you know, we always
want to keep up to date on our files. We
want to make sure that you're servicing our customers and
timely you know, can be a lot of things. It
depends on the file. So getting some customization about how
(04:01):
our defense works with us on individual files or maybe
even individual adjusters.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Is there ever an example of too much communication?
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, we don't really want a recap each month of
the file. If you have a good adjuster, they should
know the file, so you really shouldn't have to regurgitate
everything that's happened in it. So that's one thing we
don't like to see and it doesn't really make us
make sense from an expense standpoint either. So an adjuster
should be able to recognize that and kind of put
(04:35):
put a halt to that if that is what's occurring.
But that would be too much communication.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
How often generally should the firm be communicating with the insured.
We talk about the adjuster a little bit, but how
much should they be communicating with the insured?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
So I think the most important point of contact is
the initial contact. Policyholders get very anxious about getting contacted
by an attorney, so they don't understand the situation and
they don't know the business like we do, and we
kind of take it for granted that everyone understands. So
I believe the adjuster really should do the first part
(05:15):
of it by explaining to the policy holder that they're
going to be contacted by an attorney and giving them
a little context behind what's going to happen. And then
I really like to see the attorney do a voice
to voice contact initially if possible, and that way they
have an opportunity to educate the policyholder and what's going
to go on, get an action plan, set expectations, that
(05:40):
the policy holder may have, such as getting them materials,
keep the file moving timely, such as that, and then
really you as an attorney can work with that customer
based on their expectations. So they may not want any
contact until the thing's settled, or they may want a
monthly report. So I think you all do a lot
(06:03):
to create what that cadence should.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Be excellent And that's a great example of a good
communication with the insured. What other kinds of communication practices
have you found that are effective in claims handling with
where attorneys are involved.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Well, you know, again that expectation if they get a
letter where they need to maybe send in some material,
making sure that they understand how important that material is
to move the claims forward and how important it is
not to have those claims sitting open on them and
(06:42):
that they're a part of that. Just really making sure
you're educating them throughout the process and with the adjuster,
letting them know when you've had issues with the policyholder.
We want to write good risk at insurance companies, and
if we find that customers aren't being cooperative in the
(07:02):
process that we need to happen, then it's good for
us to know that, so I'd like the attorneys to
communicate that to us when that comes up.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Canby. You made a great point about how kind of
that that cadence of communication and what an individual ensured
needs is it really varies. I mean, some want to
be involved and some, like you said, may want to
put all that off on on the uh the adjuster
(07:34):
and just tell me when it's over. But there's got
to be some examples that you've seen in your career
of miscommunication. So what kind of what kind of pitfalls
do you see and if you can make any recommendations
about how how attorneys might be able to avoid some
of those.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
The one I see the most is kind of what
I mentioned earlier is the customer gets a letter from
the attorney and a lot of times they don't even
understand that that letter is their attorney. They think that
some other attorneys reaching out and going to sue them,
so they get very confused about that. You know, we
have some policyholders that are very versed in workers comp
(08:21):
and they can handle it well and go forward. But
we also have we write some mom and pop type
businesses or contractors and this may be the first time
they've ever had a claim. So really, you know, just
getting a letter out of the blues from an attorney
can be very concerning for them. So that's why I
say I like that voice to voice in the beginning,
and also that adjuster making sure that they're educating that
(08:44):
policyholder on an attorney is going to be contacting you.
We really need you to work with these people.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Okay, any without revealing any names to protect the guilty,
any impacts that you've seen from them, these type of
miscommunications that have resulted in maybe significant issues for a
law firm and or their their client.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Well, I have had instances. I mean, I'm lucky to
work with some really good defense firms, so that's been
a plus throughout my career. But customers, when these things
do happen, either the attorney's not getting back to them,
or maybe they've miscommunicated something to the customer or not
(09:31):
educated the customer and the customers misunderstood what's going on.
It really causes that customer to lose trust, not only
in the law firm but the carriers. Well, because we've
hired you to represent them, so they will come back
to us, or they will go to their agent and say,
you know, hey, they caught me off guard, or even
(09:54):
maybe they feel blindsided by the situation, and that really
leads to that customer complaining and then you get bad reviews.
You know, your reputations not great with maybe even the
maybe associations or businesses in that area that that person
may communicate with. So just making sure that the communications
(10:18):
clear and we're educating those policyholders on what's going on
step by step.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Great advice. I want to shift a little bit to
from just communication in general to maybe more specifically into
like case management. Can you give our audience maybe some
strategies or tips for proactive case management to avoid delays,
avoid complications down the road.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
So this has kind of been my practice, and as
I've mentored different adjusters throughout the years, I kind of
encouraged this. But I like to have touch points with
my defense attorney. So you know, it may be that
one time in the month when I call and where
are we at in this file and what's going on
(11:09):
in that file? And you know that one's not been active,
it's nothing needs to be done on that. Let's update
the action plan on this one. Different files, but getting
it all done in one interaction. You have a lot
of phone calls to return. We have a lot of
phone calls to return. So setting aside that time to
really focus on that case load of not only the
(11:32):
adjuster but the defense attorney has always been a go
to for me, and it really reduces confusion and time
for the adjuster and the attorney.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Okay, can you speak to what you see as maybe
some benefits of early intervention and regularly following up on claims.
Maybe that leads to being able to wrap up a
case ear than you might otherwise.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Well, I mean, the good communication leads to great service.
You know, we're areas above all in service. That's our philosophy,
and we want the same out of our business partners.
So you communicating good with our client just helps you.
They're also your customer, and I'm also your customers. So
(12:25):
when I know you're communicating with my policy holder and
they're happy with your service, then that just makes me
that more happy with your service. So, you know, I
like to try to avoid over communicating in emails. You know,
text is not always the greatest way to communicate with
our policy holders, and it becomes kind of a time
(12:47):
suck for adjusters and attorneys trying to address every single
file with a different email, and those have to be
documented and loaded in systems and so forth, and it's
not really an advantage to expense management.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
What kind of switching firms a little bit, and we've
kind of touched on some of this, But one of
our audience's concerns, obviously, is that they want to build
strong relationships with their customers. They want to build strong
relationships with the insurance company and to foster those relationships.
What are some other ways that they can do that?
Besides I know we've talked about communication, but are there
(13:26):
any other ways that you can think of that are
tips you could give our audience.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
So I think you really need to know your audience
and you need to be able to pivot. So there's
some seasoned adjusters out there that like to dictate the
handling of the file and as long as they're within
their bounds, letting them kind of take the reins to
the degree that they can. But you also might have
(13:53):
some very young or green adjusters who don't have a
lot of experience and recognizing that early in helping them
be a mentor to help develop them and do some
knowledge transfer with them. What that will lead to is
is basically they become a career long client, right, Like
they're wanting to stay with you because you all have
(14:19):
mentored them and taught them and they see that and
they become loyal.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
That's great, that's great advice. Talking a little bit, we
did have a section in here to talk about a
little bit about the claim supervisor's input. Lots of times
the attorney will just interact with the adjuster. What's the
value in like reaching out and building relationship with that
claim supervisor and considering their input and perspective.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Well, some managers may have a little bit more input
as into you know, which attorneys are assigned to what files.
I've never really used that in my practice, but I
know that that happens. So you know, just keeping in
contact with that manager so that you know you're on
the forefront of their minds. But kind of as the
(15:11):
previous question is, is knowing those expectations of that manager,
you know, if they're the type of manager that likes
to be involved in a case. Is listening to them,
hearing them out, seeing if their experience or their recommendations
are within compliance, and then maybe even incorporating that into
(15:32):
the action plan. And then you know, repeating that back
to them in a fashion that they understand that you
took something from what they said and are moving forward
with that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
What as And I guess it eerie too, the eerie
the supervisors would look over the bills and and kind
of and that that probably I don't know that if
it goes up to your level any But what kind
of concerns do you see with billing? You know, we
all struggle with the billing. It's a it's a big
(16:07):
part of our job, so it's always at the forefront
of our mind. But what what kind of concerns are
you seeing with law firms as far as billing.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So with our particular system, it is able to flag
certain things. And the biggest one we see that's the
concern is when a particular attorney bills over the limit
of hours for the day, you know, and I've seen
some outrageous examples where there might be five files, but
(16:37):
the attorneys build twenty hours on the same day. Our
system picks that up. And you don't gain a lot
of confidence when you, you know, understand that there's not
twenty five hours in the day and you're being built
for it, you know. But I think there's exceptions to that.
We obviously know there are times around trials or discovery,
(17:00):
you know, depositions, things like that, that there are more
hours needed in a file. But when you see that
come out of a firm, it does give you pause.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
And just leading to the next question, what kind of
worst stories do you have about firms where either they've
done where you've had a pleasant experience, or where they've
done an outstanding job.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I guess the worst thing is not getting communicated with.
You know, we have had situations with firms that they
did not respond to the state. So not only were
they not communicating with the adjuster, but the adjuster was
sending them documents that needed to be filed with the state,
(17:50):
and because they didn't, we got to show cause order
and our process that goes up to our president. And
that's not a good thing when you get the letter
saying you need to go to court and tell why
you didn't do something, and you know, really that was
our attorney's responsibility and it wasn't done. And so that's
(18:12):
those kind of times where I have to step in
and you know, usually talk to the partners about what's
going on and why this would happen, and unfortunately it
might be one attorney, but you start losing confidence in
that whole firm if they're allowing attorneys to do that.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Any good experiences or to stand out in your minds.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh, you know, I mean I kind of feel when
I mentioned earlier earlier about being mentored by attorneys. I've
had many experiences where the ones that I have worked
with have have taught me a lot through not through
the process, but just I guess not lost stuff, is
(19:04):
what I'm trying to say, Like, no, they're not trying
to teach me a lot, but I've learned a lot
about the process through how they did things, how they
saw things, and them keeping me engaged in that and
not just making decisions and moving forward. I think that's
best case scenario for an adjuster, especially one who's wanting
to learn.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Canby. I thought that was going to be the part
where you said, well, all the experiences with Jennifer have
been out the outstanding ones, and which I'm sure they
have been. I want to I want to shift kind
of to a maybe a rapid fire kind of a
lightning round section where because a lot of the lot
(19:47):
of the audience are going to be attorneys. So obviously
they're very interested in any any tips you can give
in some different areas about retaining attorneys, like what what
do attorneys do? What are the best practices that you
see that are going to make it most likely that
(20:08):
you are going to recommend them that you're going to
want to keep them on? So you know, I I'll
ask you these and if you can just give us
kind of whatever whatever the first thing that pops into
your head. So how does Eerie make its decisions about
(20:29):
retaining lawyers? Is that something that's individual or is there
more of a matrix to it?
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Well, we request the CV, We love recommendations. We like
to see who that attorney's already working with as far
as carriers, and we do do interviews, and we also
look at the need. What is our need for that
particular area?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Okay, So in terms of experience and expertise, how does that?
How does that factor in? How is how is younger
attorney I were supposed to to break in?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
So that's tricky, you know, I am. I would say
I like to pick on the experience first. I've had
a lot of experience with a certain attorney who is
great in court or a certain attorney who I know
that if I give them this file they can get
(21:25):
it turned over and this thing done quickly, or some
that just use really out of the box negotiation. So
you know, I like to observe that for myself, and
then based on what I see in the file and
what it needs, I will go to that attorney that
I feel has that particular expertise. But I find also
(21:45):
with with inexperienced attorneys, adjusters can do the same as
far as mentoring new attorneys, so that that loyalty that
you gain working with people as a mentor really goes
both ways.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
How does the responsiveness of an attorney or a firm
factor into whether you want to keep them?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Oh, it's a given. I mean, it just has to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That makes sense. Now this is always a sensitive topic
for law firms. But what about billing rates? I mean,
obviously there's a there's a range, But how does that
factor into your decision process?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So we do market research. We look at what firms
are in the area and what they're billing is and
we try to stay within, you know, what's reasonable for
that and we don't look at just one firm. We
look at multiple firms, and it could even be firms
we're not working with. So you know, if I were
an attorney and now we're going to throw out some rates,
(22:47):
I would want to do a little research and see
what was going on in my field in that area.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
It's good advice. Do you see that like networking by
attorneys with different organizations, associations, trade groups, that sort of thing.
Do you find networking is an important factor in any way?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Well, I mean I think like what Jennifer was explaining
about YOURLS association. I know I have had to go
to Jennifer in the past and say, you know, I
had this really weird situation. I have a claim that
I need someone in Georgia. So having that confidence in
the attorney you're working with to be able to recommend
another good attorney. You know, we all like to be competitive,
(23:32):
but we you know, I find that that's good service
because she was giving me what I needed in that moment.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So DRA is a great organization. That's what you're saying
for referrals.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Exactly, that'll be the SoundBite the last one for me
can be. So, how does a firm's reputation and track
record with eerie how does that factor into the recommendations
that you make to insurance.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
So we do track internally, you know, service or issues
and reputation within firms and not just within the work
comp line. But we might have a firm who's been
doing liability for us and we want to bring them
on in comp and I would you know, maybe touch
base with some of those adjusters or managers to see
(24:27):
what their thoughts are. We don't do a lot of
outside digging up of opinions because you know, we're in claims.
We know what kind of opinions get out there when
you know, people don't get exactly what they want, So
we don't put a lot of you know, energy into
(24:47):
looking there, but we certainly do internally keep track of
where we do get good and bad service.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Great.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And then I just want to talk about one last
thing before we wrap up, kind of We were just
talking about emerging trends lately and claim management attorney behaviors.
One thing that's come up a lot is AI. Are
y'all having to Has that affected you yet or do
you see it affecting you in the future.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
We are currently not using any AI in our claims.
You know, there are some data collection issues or groups
that are working with AI on that side, But it
doesn't have anything to do with the claims. We just
have very sensitive information about people and we have a
(25:39):
very strict policy on that. So currently we are not
having any AI and claims.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Do you have a policy about your firms, your legal
firms using AI.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
I guess I don't think it's come up yet. I
would say, you know, I would probably expect that to
use it to some degree, especially in research. I mean
there's just a tremendous way to do that or even writing.
I don't have an issue with that. I think the
only thing that may cause an issue would be any
(26:17):
personal data that was being used within the AI, so
you know, social data, birth names, things like that that
are sensitive information.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Just going on to other things and claims managed and
how it's changing. Are you seeing a bigger focus on
mental health or holistic approaches and workers' recovery or things
like that or is that has that affected you all yet?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
So I do see it quite often in my area
I have Maryland and around the DC area, it is
you know, very prevalent. As well as marijuana use. We
are having that it's legalized as there we see it
in New York. So both of those things have increased
(27:05):
in those more populated areas.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
And then one other thing I wanted to ask about,
just as far as how you use law firms, and
as firms become bigger, we see them going into more
and more states, and there's been sometimes a little bit
of a decline in state specific firms. Are you seeing
that in your work or does eerie you have a
preference or multi state firms versus smaller firms.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
We don't really in our you know, in our southern states,
they're big, and sometimes we find that attorneys just don't
want to work outside the area. But we have a
ton of business in say like my territory where we're
in Maryland and we've got West Virginia Panhandle, and we've
(27:57):
got Pennsylvania right there, and you know, we've got Delaware,
so we see a lot of cross there. And in
my experience, even when I was in the Southern territory,
I worked with firms who had multi states and I've
never had an issue, so it doesn't really factor in
(28:19):
in my consideration.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Camby, that's about all the time that we have for
this today. I really want to thank you for coming
on here and sharing some of your insights and thoughts
with us. If if any of our listeners want to
get in touch with you, what's the best way that
they can reach you?
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Emails probably the best way, so C A M B
I dot McLain m C L A I N hyphen
John's j O h N s at eerie spelled out
insurance dot com.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Great, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Camby, Yeah, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Hemming
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