July 10, 2023 • 27 mins
Lee Schmeer of Victor Rane in Philadelphia, PA speaks with Zipline's Aviation Regulatory Counsel Lauren Haertlein about the fascinating work Zipline is doing in the Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) and autonomous aircraft delivery markets and how Lauren helps to guide Zipline as it works with regulatory bodies in the U.S. and abroad.
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To learn more about DRI and the Aviation Law Committee visit DRI.org.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:18):
Hello and welcome to the latest episodeof DRI's podcast, Wingtips. I'm Leeshmir,
Senior counsel at the Victor Raine Firmlocated in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'll
be your host for today's episode ofWingtips. Wingtips is brought to you by
the DRI Aviation Law Committee. Ineach episode, we speak with DRI members
(00:38):
and notable aviation industry guests about interestingand emerging topics and aviation law and aviation
generally. Today, we are veryhappy and thrilled to be joined by Lauren
Heartline. Lauren is aviation Regulatory Councilat Zipline, a leader in the autonomous
aircraft delivery industry. Among other things, Lauren helps to guide Zipline as it
(00:59):
moves forward and works with regulatory bodiestowards safe and impactful outcomes with its partners,
customers and communities. Laarren began hercareer in healthcare, but fell in
love with aviation and flying. Whenshe learned about zip Line, she jumped
at the opportunity to work with acompany that began delivering medical supplies too difficult
to access and underserved communities in Rwanda, and has since grown to serve customers
(01:22):
and communities in Cotavoir, Ghana,Japan, Kenya, Nigeria, and the
United States. Before joining zip Line, she worked at the General Aviation Manufacturers
Association or GAMMA as General Counsel andDirector Safety and Regulatory Affairs, working to
foster the welfare, safety, interestsand activities surrounding the global general aviation industry.
(01:46):
Laren also served on the FAA Womenin Aviation Advisory Board, which developed
strategies to encourage women to pursue careersin aviation and issued its report Breaking Barriers
for Women in Aviation Flight Plan forthe Future in March of twenty twenty two.
A graduate of Tufts University and DukeUniversity School of Law, Lauren is
(02:07):
an active instrument rating commercial pilot andcombines her experience in the aviation industry with
a love for flying to advance thefuture of aviation. Lauren, thank you
so much for joining us today.Thank you for the opportunity to speak with
you, Lee and to share alittle bit about the exciting work that zip
Line is doing. Yeah, Ithink exciting is an understatement, so I'd
(02:27):
like to jump right into it.So I learned quite a bit about zip
Line and preparing to speak with youtoday and I was just wondering to start
if you could give us an overviewof what it is that zip Line does.
Absolutely happy to. Zip Line wasfounded to create the first logistics system
that serves all humans equally. Wedesign, manufacture, and operate the world's
(02:53):
largest instant logistics and delivery system.The idea is simple, transforming the way
that goods move to deliver what youneed when you need it, and the
technology to do that is complex,involving highly automated electric uas. Zipline believes
that by enabling clean electric and instantlogistics, we can decarbonized delivery, decreased
(03:16):
road congestion, reduce fuel consumption andair pollution, all while providing equitable access
to necessary and life improving goods forbillions of people. And as you mentioned,
for someone with a healthcare background anda genuine love for aviation, zip
Line is a really fun and wonderfulplace to be. Could you tell us
(03:38):
a little bit about how Zipline gotstarted and the sort of motivation to get
into what it's doing today. Absolutelyso. Zipline began operating in Rwanda delivering
blood to remote communities, and we'veexpanded to include Ghana's COVID nineteen vaccine distribution
(04:02):
to enable healthcare providers here in theUS to bring care directly to homes and
also to provide on demand home deliveryfor e commerce. Today, the zip
line is operating as you mentioned incode Devora, Ghana, Japan, Kenya,
Nigeria, and at home here inthe US. Globally, we've made
over six hundred and thirty five thousandcommercial drum deliveries and flown over forty five
(04:29):
million miles, and we continue togrow. Our twenty twenty two delivery volume
exceeded all our previous years combined.So as a pilot myself and someone who
only engages the autopilot when I'm safelyaway from the ground, I'm very curious
about the process of launching the aircraftand recovering it. Could you give us
(04:53):
a little bit of the nuts andbolts of how a zipline flight takes place.
Yes, happy to and it's aton of fun to watch if you're
able to come out to one ofour sites. So, our Platform one
aircraft is a fixed wing. It'sa longer range delivery solution that can serve
customers in remote communities. That's thatoriginal use case that I discussed about delivering
(05:15):
blood initially to communities in Rwanda.So this UAS launches from a distribution center
which we call a nest, viaan electric launcher. It then flies to
a predetermined safe delivery site, dropsits payload, which is equipped with a
small package parachute, and then returnsback to the nest to recover on an
(05:35):
arresting line. It never lands todeliver, and the intent is to enable
safe, efficient, high volume operations. These uas actually feature a modular design
where the body, wing, battery, and nose cone are all interchangeable.
Both the US and the flight operationsare reliant on a high level of automation
(06:00):
to safely operate one or multiple aircraftwith a single pilot beyond visual line of
sight. So Platform one is flyingto on predetermined routes without RPIC intervention.
Although an RPIC is monitoring the positionof the zips in flight and the weather
in the airspace and can issue commandsif necessary, But the RPAC doesn't fly
(06:23):
our US in a traditional sense.The pilot like you and I, lee
up down left right. Our newlyannounced Platform two US, which was unveiled
in March of this year is anultra precise delivery solution intended to serve urban
areas. Platform two can deliver toareas like a small patio table or even
(06:45):
someone's front steps of their home.It utilizes a unique US design, a
delivery droid and loading portals, docksand chargers. So when this Platform two
US arrives at its delivery destination,it actually use above the safe delivery site
while a delivery droid maneuvers down atether, steers to the correct location and
(07:06):
gently drops off its package. That'sthat's really interesting. You mentioned our PIC.
Would that be remote pilot and chargercommand? That's right, remote pilot.
Just clarifying terms for novices like me, Now, does the RPIC do
they have oversight for more than oneflight at any given time or what's on
(07:30):
their what's on their plate? Yep, they can have. Our system is
designed to enable operations with a singleremote pilot and multiple aircraft, so you
can have one aircraft flying or multipleaircraft flying. But as you can imagine
for high volume deliveries where we're servingmany different healthcare facilities, for example,
we'll have multiple aircraft in the airat the same time with a single controller
(07:50):
I was wondering if you could talka little bit about airspace concerns and deconfliction
with other traffic. As we discussedoperating in countries where you would expect there
is not as many there aren't asmany threats in terms of other aircraft manned
or unmanned and now, but we'realso in the US where obviously we would
expect a very busy airspace. SoI was wondering if you could just talk
(08:13):
about some of the deconfliction procedures andthings built into zip lines operations and aircraft.
Absolutely thankfully for asking that question.It's it's one that's very important for
how we work with the rest ofthe broader aviation industry because safe integration is
a priority for us to be ableto scale our operations both here in the
(08:37):
US and abroad. So I mentionedthat the remote pilot is monitoring the airspace,
and that's one aspect of our deconflictionstrategies. We take both a strategic
and a tactical approach to ensuring safeintegration and deconfliction with other traffic. And
one tool that I'd like to highlightis zip lines Detect and Avoid technology.
(09:00):
So our aircraft can use adsb inand microphones to detect certain crude aircraft and
automatically avoid them. And as theFA has recognized the ability for us to
fly beyond visual line of sight ofthe remote pilot and for those of you
who haven't spent a ton of timewith the regulations there, that's literally beyond
(09:22):
where the remote pilot is able tosee the aircraft. That's what offers the
most economic and societal benefits for us, but it's also one of the biggest
challenges under the existing FA regulatory frameworks. Zipline has actually completed hundreds of thousands
of safe long range beyond visual lineof sight deliveries serving customers in code of
(09:45):
Oregona, Japan, Kenyon, Nigeria, and Rwanda. And so we're working
very closely with the FA towards implementingour detective avoid technologies to enable those scaled
beyond visual line of site operations herein the US. And I believe we
have discussed this in preparation for thisthis podcast. But in terms of the
(10:07):
airspace, I think we mentioned inArkansas there's a zip Line center, and
is that a Class C airspace orotherwise controlled as you would see it's sort
of a medium operations control towered airfield. So the operations in Arkansas are from
p ridge. Our authorizations enable usto operate in uncontrolled and with permission and
(10:33):
coordination with air traffic control controlled airspace. Our system is intended to be able
to operate in both so that wecan serve customers in rural, suburban and
urban systems. So people may beinterested to learn that Zipline is essentially a
cradle to grave operation. I waswondering if you could talk about some of
the things that zip lines doing withdesigning aircraft and taking them all the way
(10:58):
up through certification. Yeah. Herein the US, over the past several
years, Zipline has worked really closelywith the FAA to obtain operational and design
approvals so that we can operate andgrow in the US. Here we're operating
under parts one of seven ninety oneand one thirty five. At least two
of those are probably familiar to alot of your audience members. We actually
(11:24):
received our Part one thirty five AirCarrier certificate last year, which you may
know is the only path for smalldrones to carry property of another for compensation
beyond visual line of sight, butUS companies pursuing one thirty five actually go
through the FA's existing certification process,and because some of those rules simply don't
(11:48):
apply to us. One of themost commonly cited ones you probably have heard
is the requirement to carry manuals onboard. We also seek exemptions for relief
from those requirements. So very excitedthat we were able to achieve that milestone
last year. And with respect tooperating in let's say less than ideal weather
(12:11):
conditions or things like that, thereare measures built in to allow operations and
say low visibility or or other sortof adverse weather environments. Is that correct?
Our systems are pretty proven in inintense weather, but our our pics
are monitoring the airspace and weather toensure both regulatory compliance and safety with every
(12:35):
flight. Safety is happy to share, particularly given my background of a top
priority for zip Lindum and we're currentlyserving customers safely on three continents every day.
One feature that is of note isin the unlikely event that our aircraft
(12:56):
needs to land immediately, we havea whole air craft parachute called the parallel
system, and that system is controlledby independent processors and can immediately terminate flight
and control a zip's rate of descentto the ground to reduce ground risk.
So um most faults and incidents areactually able to be automatically handled by the
(13:18):
system. It's designed with a wealthof redundancy for any critical systems. But
UM, we have we've thought aboutsales safes in the event of a critical
failure, and as Lauren said,I would encourage anyone, uh that's interested
in zip lines operations to google it, look for videos on YouTube. It's
(13:41):
really something to see how these aircraftoperate and the and the and zip lines
sort of procedures and how they dotheir day to day It's really fascinating stuff,
and videos are out there. Ifound them myself. UM I wanted
to switch gears a bit since weare a a legal centric podcast and talk
(14:01):
about what crosses your desk on adaily basis, sort of a day in
the life of view as you goabout your work for zip Line. Absolutely
happy to share that it's a reallyfun and exciting place to work. In
my role, I'm supporting the developmentand implementation of strategies for the broad range
(14:24):
of issues that are impacted by aviationregulations, primarily here in the US,
and that ranges from obtaining approvals tooffering guidance to building scalable compliance frameworks.
It requires a lot of cross functionalcollaboration. I get to work with our
broader legal team, our engineering team, policy communications, manufacturing, quality,
(14:46):
field support, flight operations. BecauseUS is such a novel and rapidly evolving
space, both on the industry sideand in terms of the regulatory environment,
A lot of the things that makeUS particularly exciting and socially beneficial are also
what make it challenging but full ofopportunity. Issues like autonomy, and we've
(15:11):
already discussed a little bit about operatingbeyond visual line of sight. There are
things that were never envisioned when thecurrent regulatory framework was created. Both our
vehicles and our operations are new andnovel, so we're working every day to
bridge the gap between the existing regulations, the existing frameworks, and technological innovation.
(15:33):
And the legal questions in this spaceare really cutting edge and require both
regulatory acumen as well as a lotof creativity. And I'm wondering the extent
to which you see counterparts at theFAA, even counterparts at competitors within the
industry as more of a partnership givenwhat I would imagine is a need to
(15:56):
kind of work together to get thingsoff the ground, so to speak.
Absolutely, zip line is proud towork very closely with regulators, including the
FAA as well as other US leadersand the broader aviation industry, as well
as communities and local government on pavingthat path, on developing that flight plan
(16:18):
for safely integrating scale drone operations.For example, we're a member of the
Beyond program previously the US Integration PilotProgram in partnership with the FAA and NCDOT,
and we're really grateful for those strongpartnerships because we're committed to continuing to
be a good partner in cultivating thatregulatory environment in which safe drone delivery can
(16:41):
flourish. I'm curious if you couldtalk a little bit about commonalities and differences
between another autonomous emerging market, theUAM market urban air mobility market, which
is the concept of transporting people inand around an urban area. FAA released
(17:04):
a new version of the concept ofoperations for that, visualizing essentially transportation from
an airport to a downtown area sortof a flying taxi and that in that
sense, so obviously you know thereare commonalities, but I you know they're
visualizing starting out with pilot on boardbefore ultimately switching to fully autonomous. Can
(17:29):
you talk a little bit about ifyou know the extent to which there is
synergy between what zip line does andthe UAM folks, and how you might
work together with them if at all. Yeah, absolutely thinks that's a great
question. I think there are alot of open questions and issues for both
US and UM like air taxis,as as both segments try to integrate in
(17:52):
scale, they do share some ofthe same challenges in innovating beyond the current
regulatory frameworks. In particular autonomy andautonomy is not only a challenge for aviation
regulation but our broader legal system inraising questions about liability. UAM, however,
(18:14):
obviously presents a different risk level comparedto US because it involves the carriage
of persons, and I've written beforeabout the potential for UAM manufacturers to have
to assume greater liability for events involvingautonomous aircraft. There's a risk that early
events are likely to be high profile, and the characteristics of early adopters in
(18:37):
traveling on UAM may make compensation valueshigher, including for example, employment status.
So how the industry, manufacturers andinsurers will absorb those risks is a
significant question, and how this willimpact who is able to enter and stay
(18:57):
in the market from a purely regulatorystandpoint. In some ways, UAM may
be better poised to leverage more ofthe existing frameworks for aircraft design and operations
than US, but unlike US,are already operating and proving value. We've
(19:17):
discussed already, the zipline is flyingcommercial delivery flights every day, and the
feedback that we've gotten from customers hasbeen incredibly positive, so we can point
to tangible benefits already. But Ithink for both segments of the industry,
we're learning every day and we canexpect some really exciting developments in the very
(19:38):
near term. So that you touchedon it a bit, but obviously one
of the challenges as as US evolvesand u AM for that matter, is
pricing insurance and sort of ironing outof framework that insurance policies can have for
(20:00):
these operations. Can you expand abit on some of the challenges both that
zip line may be facing and perhapseven what you're hearing from insurers in terms
of developing a framework moving forward.Well, I can't comment on what Zipline
is specifically experiencing. Yeah, Ididn't mean to imply given up the secret
(20:22):
sauce or anything like that. Sorry, No, no worries at all.
I think that there's just a lotof interesting open questions on what scale is
going to look like and what theimplications there are for the insurance market,
and whether or not the traditional insuranceproviders for the aviation space, which is
a pretty small and narrow community,are are going to assume these new these
(20:48):
new operations and vehicles, or whetherwe'll see new folks and new models enter
into the aviation insurance industry to supportthe growth of the UAM and AS industry.
So I think, um, ifyou're an insurance dork, there's probably
a lot of exciting opportunity there,just like there is in the aviation regulatory
(21:11):
segment. And I assume when yousay dork, you meet it in the
in the nicest possible consider myself onesou One of the things I did forget
to bring up when we were brieflytalking about partnerships earlier. I found it
very interesting the partnership that zip linehad with with the Government of Rwanda.
(21:33):
I was wondering a bit out ofturn and backtracking a bit here, but
if you could sort of talk aboutUM partnerships you may not expect in terms
of you know, executive level UHyou know, positions within governments and sort
of how that worked out and howthat relationship has looked. Yeah, We've
been very fortunate at zip Line tohave strong partnerships with the authorities in the
(21:56):
UH in the locations in which weoperate, and the Government of Rwanda has
been an incredibly innovative partner in bothearly adoption of Zipline's technology and seeing the
value and enabling it in a veryforward look looking way, as well as
being a partner interested in our nextgeneration aircraft as well. I think the
(22:19):
Rwandan government was very forward looking inunderstanding the benefit, the need and looking
for creative ways to ensure that itcan be enabled in an effective way.
I'm turning now to a common question. I'm sure you get on panels and
one we hear at conferences all thetime when in House Council is seated on
(22:44):
the panel. But I wanted toask your pet peeves and dues, adults
as you work with outside counsel.Yeah, I appreciate the question and full
disclosure. I actually surveyed my fellowlegal eagles at zipline for their favorite tips
as well. So these aren't allmine, but they will hopefully be useful
(23:06):
to you all. I'm taking notesfirst, and I know this one sounds
obvious, but have adequate baseline knowledgeof your client's product. If you're talking
to someone in the aviation space,know the difference between general Aviation and the
airlines. Know the difference between USand UAM. There's a lot of nuances
(23:26):
there, and having even an appreciationfor the differences will make you stand out
compared to potential other outside council makingpitches as well. Second, develop a
realistic project budget in advance, andif you learn something that changes your budget
estimates, tell me immediately that isa change down the road is always an
(23:52):
incredibly challenging thing to wrestle with.Third, don't deliver risks like they are
bad news. Deliver risks clearly anddirectly with an assessment of the level and
enforcement implications, and if you can'tdo that, just be honest about it.
And lastly, also one that mightsound obvious, but reach out with
(24:14):
helpful updates and if you can addyour perspective commentary in context. So outside
counsel that's really on top of what'sgoing on on the latest developments and also
able to connect those things to howthey're relevant to me, is counsel that's
always going to stay top of mind. Yeah, I order to piggyback on
something you said about knowing the client. You know, it strikes me that
(24:37):
that's akin to, you know,just putting in effort, Like that's one
thing like in sports, it's okay, you may not have the skill,
but the effort is something that youcan control. And particularly you know,
in preparing for this, I watchedzip lines annual presentation and sort of an
update on where it's at, andyou know, I found that in a
relatively short time frame to give ancredibly comprehensive overview of the company and not
(25:02):
only where it's been, but whereit's projected to go. And and you
know, and I don't think zipLine is alone and preparing and putting out
that material. So you know thatthat really resonates with me and I hope
with with other listeners. Um,So I think we've reached the the end
(25:23):
of what I had hoped to talkabout today. UM. I hope that
we've covered um zip line and enoughdetail to get people interested and hopefully provide
some information. I was shocked atUM, not shocked, but very UM
well, just interested to know howestablished zip Line's operations already. Are certainly
(25:45):
looking forward to perhaps having a mealor an order delivered on my doorstep,
even in inclement weather. UM.And I understand that zip Line will is
making an appearance at Utah State inthe near future. Is that something you'd
like to to plug? It willbe at Ashcash this year at the Udhah
State University booth. So if you'dlike to come see one of our Platform
(26:08):
one zips and hear a little bitmore about how Platform two is going to
further innovate on delivery and UH scalehere at home as well as abroad,
please come by and visit us.We would love to chat. Well,
Lauren, I just want to saythank you so much for joining us on
(26:30):
wing Tips today, and thank youas well to all of our listeners.
We ask our listeners or or wellyeah, anyone who's who's pritty to this
podcast, to rate, review andsubscribe to wing Tips, and to also
please listen to future episodes where wewill also be speaking with other dr I
(26:51):
members and notable guests about aviation law, their practice and aviation law and even
cutting edge aviation industry topics as we'vediscussed today. And as a reminder,
please be sure to update your DRImembership profile, renew your membership or join
until next time. I'm Leshmir withthe Victor reinfirm in Philadelphia and this has
(27:14):
been Wingtips brought to you by theDRI Aviation Law Committee
Hello and welcome to the latest episodeof DRI's podcast, Wingtips. I'm Leeshmir,
Senior counsel at the Victor Raine Firmlocated in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'll
be your host for today's episode ofWingtips. Wingtips is brought to you by
the DRI Aviation Law Committee. Ineach episode, we speak with DRI members
(00:38):
and notable aviation industry guests about interestingand emerging topics and aviation law and aviation
generally. Today, we are veryhappy and thrilled to be joined by Lauren
Heartline. Lauren is aviation Regulatory Councilat Zipline, a leader in the autonomous
aircraft delivery industry. Among other things, Lauren helps to guide Zipline as it
(00:59):
moves forward and works with regulatory bodiestowards safe and impactful outcomes with its partners,
customers and communities. Laarren began hercareer in healthcare, but fell in
love with aviation and flying. Whenshe learned about zip Line, she jumped
at the opportunity to work with acompany that began delivering medical supplies too difficult
to access and underserved communities in Rwanda, and has since grown to serve customers
(01:22):
and communities in Cotavoir, Ghana,Japan, Kenya, Nigeria, and the
United States. Before joining zip Line, she worked at the General Aviation Manufacturers
Association or GAMMA as General Counsel andDirector Safety and Regulatory Affairs, working to
foster the welfare, safety, interestsand activities surrounding the global general aviation industry.
(01:46):
Laren also served on the FAA Womenin Aviation Advisory Board, which developed
strategies to encourage women to pursue careersin aviation and issued its report Breaking Barriers
for Women in Aviation Flight Plan forthe Future in March of twenty twenty two.
A graduate of Tufts University and DukeUniversity School of Law, Lauren is
(02:07):
an active instrument rating commercial pilot andcombines her experience in the aviation industry with
a love for flying to advance thefuture of aviation. Lauren, thank you
so much for joining us today.Thank you for the opportunity to speak with
you, Lee and to share alittle bit about the exciting work that zip
Line is doing. Yeah, Ithink exciting is an understatement, so I'd
(02:27):
like to jump right into it.So I learned quite a bit about zip
Line and preparing to speak with youtoday and I was just wondering to start
if you could give us an overviewof what it is that zip Line does.
Absolutely happy to. Zip Line wasfounded to create the first logistics system
that serves all humans equally. Wedesign, manufacture, and operate the world's
(02:53):
largest instant logistics and delivery system.The idea is simple, transforming the way
that goods move to deliver what youneed when you need it, and the
technology to do that is complex,involving highly automated electric uas. Zipline believes
that by enabling clean electric and instantlogistics, we can decarbonized delivery, decreased
(03:16):
road congestion, reduce fuel consumption andair pollution, all while providing equitable access
to necessary and life improving goods forbillions of people. And as you mentioned,
for someone with a healthcare background anda genuine love for aviation, zip
Line is a really fun and wonderfulplace to be. Could you tell us
(03:38):
a little bit about how Zipline gotstarted and the sort of motivation to get
into what it's doing today. Absolutelyso. Zipline began operating in Rwanda delivering
blood to remote communities, and we'veexpanded to include Ghana's COVID nineteen vaccine distribution
(04:02):
to enable healthcare providers here in theUS to bring care directly to homes and
also to provide on demand home deliveryfor e commerce. Today, the zip
line is operating as you mentioned incode Devora, Ghana, Japan, Kenya,
Nigeria, and at home here inthe US. Globally, we've made
over six hundred and thirty five thousandcommercial drum deliveries and flown over forty five
(04:29):
million miles, and we continue togrow. Our twenty twenty two delivery volume
exceeded all our previous years combined.So as a pilot myself and someone who
only engages the autopilot when I'm safelyaway from the ground, I'm very curious
about the process of launching the aircraftand recovering it. Could you give us
(04:53):
a little bit of the nuts andbolts of how a zipline flight takes place.
Yes, happy to and it's aton of fun to watch if you're
able to come out to one ofour sites. So, our Platform one
aircraft is a fixed wing. It'sa longer range delivery solution that can serve
customers in remote communities. That's thatoriginal use case that I discussed about delivering
(05:15):
blood initially to communities in Rwanda.So this UAS launches from a distribution center
which we call a nest, viaan electric launcher. It then flies to
a predetermined safe delivery site, dropsits payload, which is equipped with a
small package parachute, and then returnsback to the nest to recover on an
(05:35):
arresting line. It never lands todeliver, and the intent is to enable
safe, efficient, high volume operations. These uas actually feature a modular design
where the body, wing, battery, and nose cone are all interchangeable.
Both the US and the flight operationsare reliant on a high level of automation
(06:00):
to safely operate one or multiple aircraftwith a single pilot beyond visual line of
sight. So Platform one is flyingto on predetermined routes without RPIC intervention.
Although an RPIC is monitoring the positionof the zips in flight and the weather
in the airspace and can issue commandsif necessary, But the RPAC doesn't fly
(06:23):
our US in a traditional sense.The pilot like you and I, lee
up down left right. Our newlyannounced Platform two US, which was unveiled
in March of this year is anultra precise delivery solution intended to serve urban
areas. Platform two can deliver toareas like a small patio table or even
(06:45):
someone's front steps of their home.It utilizes a unique US design, a
delivery droid and loading portals, docksand chargers. So when this Platform two
US arrives at its delivery destination,it actually use above the safe delivery site
while a delivery droid maneuvers down atether, steers to the correct location and
(07:06):
gently drops off its package. That'sthat's really interesting. You mentioned our PIC.
Would that be remote pilot and chargercommand? That's right, remote pilot.
Just clarifying terms for novices like me, Now, does the RPIC do
they have oversight for more than oneflight at any given time or what's on
(07:30):
their what's on their plate? Yep, they can have. Our system is
designed to enable operations with a singleremote pilot and multiple aircraft, so you
can have one aircraft flying or multipleaircraft flying. But as you can imagine
for high volume deliveries where we're servingmany different healthcare facilities, for example,
we'll have multiple aircraft in the airat the same time with a single controller
(07:50):
I was wondering if you could talka little bit about airspace concerns and deconfliction
with other traffic. As we discussedoperating in countries where you would expect there
is not as many there aren't asmany threats in terms of other aircraft manned
or unmanned and now, but we'realso in the US where obviously we would
expect a very busy airspace. SoI was wondering if you could just talk
(08:13):
about some of the deconfliction procedures andthings built into zip lines operations and aircraft.
Absolutely thankfully for asking that question.It's it's one that's very important for
how we work with the rest ofthe broader aviation industry because safe integration is
a priority for us to be ableto scale our operations both here in the
(08:37):
US and abroad. So I mentionedthat the remote pilot is monitoring the airspace,
and that's one aspect of our deconflictionstrategies. We take both a strategic
and a tactical approach to ensuring safeintegration and deconfliction with other traffic. And
one tool that I'd like to highlightis zip lines Detect and Avoid technology.
(09:00):
So our aircraft can use adsb inand microphones to detect certain crude aircraft and
automatically avoid them. And as theFA has recognized the ability for us to
fly beyond visual line of sight ofthe remote pilot and for those of you
who haven't spent a ton of timewith the regulations there, that's literally beyond
(09:22):
where the remote pilot is able tosee the aircraft. That's what offers the
most economic and societal benefits for us, but it's also one of the biggest
challenges under the existing FA regulatory frameworks. Zipline has actually completed hundreds of thousands
of safe long range beyond visual lineof sight deliveries serving customers in code of
(09:45):
Oregona, Japan, Kenyon, Nigeria, and Rwanda. And so we're working
very closely with the FA towards implementingour detective avoid technologies to enable those scaled
beyond visual line of site operations herein the US. And I believe we
have discussed this in preparation for thisthis podcast. But in terms of the
(10:07):
airspace, I think we mentioned inArkansas there's a zip Line center, and
is that a Class C airspace orotherwise controlled as you would see it's sort
of a medium operations control towered airfield. So the operations in Arkansas are from
p ridge. Our authorizations enable usto operate in uncontrolled and with permission and
(10:33):
coordination with air traffic control controlled airspace. Our system is intended to be able
to operate in both so that wecan serve customers in rural, suburban and
urban systems. So people may beinterested to learn that Zipline is essentially a
cradle to grave operation. I waswondering if you could talk about some of
the things that zip lines doing withdesigning aircraft and taking them all the way
(10:58):
up through certification. Yeah. Herein the US, over the past several
years, Zipline has worked really closelywith the FAA to obtain operational and design
approvals so that we can operate andgrow in the US. Here we're operating
under parts one of seven ninety oneand one thirty five. At least two
of those are probably familiar to alot of your audience members. We actually
(11:24):
received our Part one thirty five AirCarrier certificate last year, which you may
know is the only path for smalldrones to carry property of another for compensation
beyond visual line of sight, butUS companies pursuing one thirty five actually go
through the FA's existing certification process,and because some of those rules simply don't
(11:48):
apply to us. One of themost commonly cited ones you probably have heard
is the requirement to carry manuals onboard. We also seek exemptions for relief
from those requirements. So very excitedthat we were able to achieve that milestone
last year. And with respect tooperating in let's say less than ideal weather
(12:11):
conditions or things like that, thereare measures built in to allow operations and
say low visibility or or other sortof adverse weather environments. Is that correct?
Our systems are pretty proven in inintense weather, but our our pics
are monitoring the airspace and weather toensure both regulatory compliance and safety with every
(12:35):
flight. Safety is happy to share, particularly given my background of a top
priority for zip Lindum and we're currentlyserving customers safely on three continents every day.
One feature that is of note isin the unlikely event that our aircraft
(12:56):
needs to land immediately, we havea whole air craft parachute called the parallel
system, and that system is controlledby independent processors and can immediately terminate flight
and control a zip's rate of descentto the ground to reduce ground risk.
So um most faults and incidents areactually able to be automatically handled by the
(13:18):
system. It's designed with a wealthof redundancy for any critical systems. But
UM, we have we've thought aboutsales safes in the event of a critical
failure, and as Lauren said,I would encourage anyone, uh that's interested
in zip lines operations to google it, look for videos on YouTube. It's
(13:41):
really something to see how these aircraftoperate and the and the and zip lines
sort of procedures and how they dotheir day to day It's really fascinating stuff,
and videos are out there. Ifound them myself. UM I wanted
to switch gears a bit since weare a a legal centric podcast and talk
(14:01):
about what crosses your desk on adaily basis, sort of a day in
the life of view as you goabout your work for zip Line. Absolutely
happy to share that it's a reallyfun and exciting place to work. In
my role, I'm supporting the developmentand implementation of strategies for the broad range
(14:24):
of issues that are impacted by aviationregulations, primarily here in the US,
and that ranges from obtaining approvals tooffering guidance to building scalable compliance frameworks.
It requires a lot of cross functionalcollaboration. I get to work with our
broader legal team, our engineering team, policy communications, manufacturing, quality,
(14:46):
field support, flight operations. BecauseUS is such a novel and rapidly evolving
space, both on the industry sideand in terms of the regulatory environment,
A lot of the things that makeUS particularly exciting and socially beneficial are also
what make it challenging but full ofopportunity. Issues like autonomy, and we've
(15:11):
already discussed a little bit about operatingbeyond visual line of sight. There are
things that were never envisioned when thecurrent regulatory framework was created. Both our
vehicles and our operations are new andnovel, so we're working every day to
bridge the gap between the existing regulations, the existing frameworks, and technological innovation.
(15:33):
And the legal questions in this spaceare really cutting edge and require both
regulatory acumen as well as a lotof creativity. And I'm wondering the extent
to which you see counterparts at theFAA, even counterparts at competitors within the
industry as more of a partnership givenwhat I would imagine is a need to
(15:56):
kind of work together to get thingsoff the ground, so to speak.
Absolutely, zip line is proud towork very closely with regulators, including the
FAA as well as other US leadersand the broader aviation industry, as well
as communities and local government on pavingthat path, on developing that flight plan
(16:18):
for safely integrating scale drone operations.For example, we're a member of the
Beyond program previously the US Integration PilotProgram in partnership with the FAA and NCDOT,
and we're really grateful for those strongpartnerships because we're committed to continuing to
be a good partner in cultivating thatregulatory environment in which safe drone delivery can
(16:41):
flourish. I'm curious if you couldtalk a little bit about commonalities and differences
between another autonomous emerging market, theUAM market urban air mobility market, which
is the concept of transporting people inand around an urban area. FAA released
(17:04):
a new version of the concept ofoperations for that, visualizing essentially transportation from
an airport to a downtown area sortof a flying taxi and that in that
sense, so obviously you know thereare commonalities, but I you know they're
visualizing starting out with pilot on boardbefore ultimately switching to fully autonomous. Can
(17:29):
you talk a little bit about ifyou know the extent to which there is
synergy between what zip line does andthe UAM folks, and how you might
work together with them if at all. Yeah, absolutely thinks that's a great
question. I think there are alot of open questions and issues for both
US and UM like air taxis,as as both segments try to integrate in
(17:52):
scale, they do share some ofthe same challenges in innovating beyond the current
regulatory frameworks. In particular autonomy andautonomy is not only a challenge for aviation
regulation but our broader legal system inraising questions about liability. UAM, however,
(18:14):
obviously presents a different risk level comparedto US because it involves the carriage
of persons, and I've written beforeabout the potential for UAM manufacturers to have
to assume greater liability for events involvingautonomous aircraft. There's a risk that early
events are likely to be high profile, and the characteristics of early adopters in
(18:37):
traveling on UAM may make compensation valueshigher, including for example, employment status.
So how the industry, manufacturers andinsurers will absorb those risks is a
significant question, and how this willimpact who is able to enter and stay
(18:57):
in the market from a purely regulatorystandpoint. In some ways, UAM may
be better poised to leverage more ofthe existing frameworks for aircraft design and operations
than US, but unlike US,are already operating and proving value. We've
(19:17):
discussed already, the zipline is flyingcommercial delivery flights every day, and the
feedback that we've gotten from customers hasbeen incredibly positive, so we can point
to tangible benefits already. But Ithink for both segments of the industry,
we're learning every day and we canexpect some really exciting developments in the very
(19:38):
near term. So that you touchedon it a bit, but obviously one
of the challenges as as US evolvesand u AM for that matter, is
pricing insurance and sort of ironing outof framework that insurance policies can have for
(20:00):
these operations. Can you expand abit on some of the challenges both that
zip line may be facing and perhapseven what you're hearing from insurers in terms
of developing a framework moving forward.Well, I can't comment on what Zipline
is specifically experiencing. Yeah, Ididn't mean to imply given up the secret
(20:22):
sauce or anything like that. Sorry, No, no worries at all.
I think that there's just a lotof interesting open questions on what scale is
going to look like and what theimplications there are for the insurance market,
and whether or not the traditional insuranceproviders for the aviation space, which is
a pretty small and narrow community,are are going to assume these new these
(20:48):
new operations and vehicles, or whetherwe'll see new folks and new models enter
into the aviation insurance industry to supportthe growth of the UAM and AS industry.
So I think, um, ifyou're an insurance dork, there's probably
a lot of exciting opportunity there,just like there is in the aviation regulatory
(21:11):
segment. And I assume when yousay dork, you meet it in the
in the nicest possible consider myself onesou One of the things I did forget
to bring up when we were brieflytalking about partnerships earlier. I found it
very interesting the partnership that zip linehad with with the Government of Rwanda.
(21:33):
I was wondering a bit out ofturn and backtracking a bit here, but
if you could sort of talk aboutUM partnerships you may not expect in terms
of you know, executive level UHyou know, positions within governments and sort
of how that worked out and howthat relationship has looked. Yeah, We've
been very fortunate at zip Line tohave strong partnerships with the authorities in the
(21:56):
UH in the locations in which weoperate, and the Government of Rwanda has
been an incredibly innovative partner in bothearly adoption of Zipline's technology and seeing the
value and enabling it in a veryforward look looking way, as well as
being a partner interested in our nextgeneration aircraft as well. I think the
(22:19):
Rwandan government was very forward looking inunderstanding the benefit, the need and looking
for creative ways to ensure that itcan be enabled in an effective way.
I'm turning now to a common question. I'm sure you get on panels and
one we hear at conferences all thetime when in House Council is seated on
(22:44):
the panel. But I wanted toask your pet peeves and dues, adults
as you work with outside counsel.Yeah, I appreciate the question and full
disclosure. I actually surveyed my fellowlegal eagles at zipline for their favorite tips
as well. So these aren't allmine, but they will hopefully be useful
(23:06):
to you all. I'm taking notesfirst, and I know this one sounds
obvious, but have adequate baseline knowledgeof your client's product. If you're talking
to someone in the aviation space,know the difference between general Aviation and the
airlines. Know the difference between USand UAM. There's a lot of nuances
(23:26):
there, and having even an appreciationfor the differences will make you stand out
compared to potential other outside council makingpitches as well. Second, develop a
realistic project budget in advance, andif you learn something that changes your budget
estimates, tell me immediately that isa change down the road is always an
(23:52):
incredibly challenging thing to wrestle with.Third, don't deliver risks like they are
bad news. Deliver risks clearly anddirectly with an assessment of the level and
enforcement implications, and if you can'tdo that, just be honest about it.
And lastly, also one that mightsound obvious, but reach out with
(24:14):
helpful updates and if you can addyour perspective commentary in context. So outside
counsel that's really on top of what'sgoing on on the latest developments and also
able to connect those things to howthey're relevant to me, is counsel that's
always going to stay top of mind. Yeah, I order to piggyback on
something you said about knowing the client. You know, it strikes me that
(24:37):
that's akin to, you know,just putting in effort, Like that's one
thing like in sports, it's okay, you may not have the skill,
but the effort is something that youcan control. And particularly you know,
in preparing for this, I watchedzip lines annual presentation and sort of an
update on where it's at, andyou know, I found that in a
relatively short time frame to give ancredibly comprehensive overview of the company and not
(25:02):
only where it's been, but whereit's projected to go. And and you
know, and I don't think zipLine is alone and preparing and putting out
that material. So you know thatthat really resonates with me and I hope
with with other listeners. Um,So I think we've reached the the end
(25:23):
of what I had hoped to talkabout today. UM. I hope that
we've covered um zip line and enoughdetail to get people interested and hopefully provide
some information. I was shocked atUM, not shocked, but very UM
well, just interested to know howestablished zip Line's operations already. Are certainly
(25:45):
looking forward to perhaps having a mealor an order delivered on my doorstep,
even in inclement weather. UM.And I understand that zip Line will is
making an appearance at Utah State inthe near future. Is that something you'd
like to to plug? It willbe at Ashcash this year at the Udhah
State University booth. So if you'dlike to come see one of our Platform
(26:08):
one zips and hear a little bitmore about how Platform two is going to
further innovate on delivery and UH scalehere at home as well as abroad,
please come by and visit us.We would love to chat. Well,
Lauren, I just want to saythank you so much for joining us on
(26:30):
wing Tips today, and thank youas well to all of our listeners.
We ask our listeners or or wellyeah, anyone who's who's pritty to this
podcast, to rate, review andsubscribe to wing Tips, and to also
please listen to future episodes where wewill also be speaking with other dr I
(26:51):
members and notable guests about aviation law, their practice and aviation law and even
cutting edge aviation industry topics as we'vediscussed today. And as a reminder,
please be sure to update your DRImembership profile, renew your membership or join
until next time. I'm Leshmir withthe Victor reinfirm in Philadelphia and this has
(27:14):
been Wingtips brought to you by theDRI Aviation Law Committee
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