November 4, 2024 • 35 mins
Trends in Workers' Compensation Fraud with Joe DePolo
Shane Dawson of Dinsmore and Shohl, LLP and Jennifer White of Peterson White, LLP interview Joe DePolo, the Assistant Special Agent in Charge overseeing a team of investigators and analysts in Southeastern Ohio. Currently fraud accounts for millions of dollars in losses in Ohio and billions of dollars lost across the United States. Mr. DePolo discusses the trends in different types of workers’ compensation fraud, as well as some the tools and technology used to help detect and stop fraud.
To learn more about DRI and the Workers' Compensation Committee visit www.DRI.org.
#DRILawyer
#DRICommunity
Shane Dawson of Dinsmore and Shohl, LLP and Jennifer White of Peterson White, LLP interview Joe DePolo, the Assistant Special Agent in Charge overseeing a team of investigators and analysts in Southeastern Ohio. Currently fraud accounts for millions of dollars in losses in Ohio and billions of dollars lost across the United States. Mr. DePolo discusses the trends in different types of workers’ compensation fraud, as well as some the tools and technology used to help detect and stop fraud.
To learn more about DRI and the Workers' Compensation Committee visit www.DRI.org.
#DRILawyer
#DRICommunity
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome back to another episode of the Conversations podcast podcasts
developed through the Defense Research Institute, where we discuss the
world of workers compensation, exploring issues involving occupational injuries, treatment, claims, management,
and litigation, as well as future trends and emerging issues
(00:39):
in this area of law. My name is Shane Dawson,
and I'm here with Jennifer White, a founding member of
the Tennessee and Kentucky firm of Peterson White. We are
delighted to have Joe Depolo with us today on today's
podcast to talk about fraud in workers' compensation claims from claimants, providers,
and employers. Joe is with the Ohio Bureau Workers Compensation,
(01:03):
serving as the Assistant Special Agent in charge, overseeing a
team of investigators and analysts that cover the southeastern part
of Ohio. He previously worked on teams focused on healthcare
provider fraud and served as a fraud analyst for Ohio BWC. Today,
Joe will talk to us about trends in different types
(01:24):
of workers compensation fraud, as well as some of the
tools and technology that they are using to help detect
and stop fraud. Joe Apollo, Welcome to comp conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you, thank you again, Thank you again for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Jack.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What is your We'll just start off just talking a
little bit about your background. What is your background? Is
training before joining the Ohio BWCSID.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
OH many minions ago Air Force vets, part of the
JAG Corps when I was there, not a lawyer, just
as a one of the assigned to the JAG Corps
when I was in the Air Force, a little bit
of private employment time after I got out of the service,
joined the Bureau in about ninety four, actually in the
claims and then I parlayed my military experience into a
(02:13):
position with the Workers Count Fraud Unit. I've had some
stints along the way with the Ohio Medical Board as
an enforcement agent, and have various roles here at BWC
as Shane Ludisow as a Frouday analyst, as a special agent,
and now is the ASAC for the team here in Coormus.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So how long have you been with the unit.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I've been with the state twenty eight years. I've been
with the unit around the state at least twenty twenty
five years somewhere around and I'm sorry, I had a
couple of jobs in between, I left the agency and returned.
So I left for a while, went to the State
Medical Board as an enforcement agent, and then returned And
I've been here since. Oh boy, another fifteen years, I think. Sorry,
(03:00):
it all just kind of runs together. It's been a
long time. So, but over twenty eight years with the state,
most of them with workers comp What is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
The size of Ohio's sid and how much fraud are
we talking about? That's Oncoverty each year?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Right now? There's about one hundred and sixteen dedicated professionals
in our units across the state. And I guess if
you're talking about there's eight service offices across the state,
and each one of those offices may have a one
or all the representative teams held within we're talking about. Well,
(03:41):
if if industry projections are correct, they say that five
to ten percent of all workers' comp clans are fraudulent
in the state of Ohio, and if that is accurate,
that would be about sixty five million to two hundred
and six five million in fraud in the Ohio alone.
(04:04):
I was reading the other day that in California, the
Santa Barbara County recently started a workers compensation fraud program,
and their figures kind of do work ours. They have
about ten billion dollars in workers comp benefits each year
in California and they estimate the ten to thirty percent
of those are fraudulent. And that's true, that would equate
(04:25):
to about five billion dollars each year. And I can
give you some and from I mean, our fiscal year
twenty three stats are out. I mean we've you know,
we received in Ohio for workers' comp. We received twenty
three hundred plus allegations of fraud. We closed over thirteen
(04:48):
hundred cases this year. We made one hundred and eighteen
referrals for criminal prosecution, convicted seventy nine people this fiscal year,
and we recognize seventy three point five million dollars in
savings to the state front in the last fiscal year.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now, Joe, Joe, Among all those different allegations, the different referrals,
convictions and savings, what are the different types of fraud
that the agency investigates.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Well, obviously, as you're well aware, there's one overriding workers
compensation fraud statue, and the division internally breaks that down
into three primary functions. We have claimant, our insured worker teams,
We have healthcare fraud unit, and we have an employer
(05:44):
fraud unit as well. We have some ancillary units that
are obviously vital to what we do. They're not considered
field investigators, but they're part and parcel of what the
division does every day. In the Computer Forensics and Intelligence Unit,
those kind of folks, they're with us as well. But
the primary three focuses are injured worker, healthcare, and the
(06:08):
employer fraud teams.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And among those, you know, you talked about seventy three
point five million in identified savings. How do those different
areas or types of fraud compare in terms of the
size and scope with with what you end up saving
the state.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, that's difficult because each one is so very different
because of the type of case that they investigate. Obviously,
the employers are dealing with premiums from the employers, the
claimant teams, our teams we deal with the benefits paid
to the injured workers, and then the healthcare is they're
(06:49):
concerned with the healthcare providers and the payments that they
that they're given for the services they provide. So that's
difficult for me to kind of break down any farther
than that, I know that's not a great answer, but
I'm not sure if I can give you numbers on
different parts, I don't. I don't have that with me
right now.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Even with our numbers on it. Joe, just kind of anecdotally,
what you know, how big is the you know, claimant
broad problem versus say, healthcare provider fraud.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
SEV are going to be the claimant fraud the claimant
fraud cases healthcare is a much smaller two three four percent,
and then employer makes up that other twenty twenty three
twenty four percent roughly of our case of our case
loads right now, there are three regional claimant teams throughout
(07:47):
the state. There are the healthcare team and the employer teams.
There are statewide teams, so there's more. There's a larger
group of injured worker frauds. We have smaller units in
smaller parts of the state to kind of help take
care of the volume of those kinds of cases that
we work, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, ALUs the way fraud has been committed changed over
the years.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Oh boy, that's that's difficult to answer. Because I've been
in this profession so long. That is something that I
just it's my work. So it's just something that comes
at me every day. But I can tell you that
the technology has changed the way that fraud can happen.
(08:41):
I mean in general, I'm sorry, I'm trying to articulate
this better, but being in the profession, it's just a
day to day these things, just these fraud schemes just
evolve from one to the next, rather slowly at times.
But REEF with the ads in of technology and as
(09:05):
new programs and benefits are unveiled by the agency, we
see a trend that's a little bit different than it
has been. There's been this trend towards automation across almost
all of society. Everything we want to do is now automated,
and that's made a little more attractive I think for
a new kind of criminal to come in and try
to take advantage a fraud, and they do that through
(09:27):
a computer. When I began many many years ago, injured
worker fraud required human intervention. It had there had to
be some sort of human contact. And now that has
gone away, and we have actors that can basically try
and commit fraud through a computer. You don't even have
to be party to the claim. And generally, when I
(09:49):
when I started this, you were party to a claim
and one of those parties might be the actor trying
to initiate a fraud, a fraud scheme. But now with
the automation piece of it, you can log in and
create identities and you can try to divert the payment
where the payments go through the use of a computer
(10:11):
without any human intervention. That's kind of been a kind
of an interesting in a big change that I've seen
within the past few years. It was just it's just
interesting to watch as people from we don't even know
whether they're in Ohio, you know, attempt to contact us
and change the payment vehicle and have that those money
(10:34):
is diverted to a different account. And if you kind
of put that together with these facets of identity theft,
and once again these folks can use technology and they
will try to log in and and and alter who's
(10:55):
receiving the funds and where those funds will go. They
assume the identity of a loved one or a family
member and then they try to, you know, have that
money sent to a different kind of account. I mean,
when I began, we had paper checks and brick and
mortar financial institutions, and then we moved to ebt cards,
and then you move from ebt cards to a direct
(11:17):
deposit kind of situation. And now we have these internet
banks that don't have physical locations anymore. So now you
have people that try to log in, try to get
into our system and divert these payments and send them
to these these web based banks. So that's that's a
lot different. I mean, because when I started, you had
(11:39):
to have a paper check and an ink signature, and
if you wanted to change that, you had to be
prolific enough to actually physically change the way a check looked.
And now if your computer savvy, you could just use
a computer keyboard to try to commit fraud, which is
kind of interesting and new.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
What are the kinds of differences you see in front
between claimants and healthcare and employers.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's it's quite different. I mean, you know, injury, the
claimant fraud is is personal. It's usually performed generally by,
you know, someone who decides that they wish to try
to obtain a benefit that they that they haven't that
they're not entitled to. Health care fraud, you know, generally
it's providers who wish to a bill for services they're
(12:28):
not rendered. You know, to us, that's still pretty much
the driving force behind most of what they do. And
I'm not in that unit, so I hate to speak
too distinctly about what all they do. But as you know,
as certain trends in healthcare change, their cases will reflect that.
For instance, pill mills were extremely prolific many years ago.
(12:51):
Those have decreased, so their case flow has changed now
and they're you know, service is not rendered are still
the prime driver of the fraudulent cases that they do,
and e f T the employer fraud folks. They still
deal a lot with employers who want to miss categorize
(13:14):
or their employees to put them in a lower classification
so that their premiums are cheaper. And they also try
to represent that some employees are actually independent contractors when
in fact they're they're employees. And that's a lot of
things that they deal with. I think that's fairly constant
across the board.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
What's the most unusual seme you've encountered so far?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Oh? Wow, that's kind of hard to nail down, because
every every attempt is kind of unusual the first time,
and then you know, after a while it it becomes
kind of common. So, but because if it becomes common,
because it's attempted more and more time times. But you know,
(14:01):
I and not to give you know, real specifics, but
I've seen, you know, cases where clayets represent that they're
they need a motorized wheelchair to embulate and then you know,
after they leave an examination, they're miraculously able to walk,
you know, after they leave. And you know, we've we've
(14:21):
seen these. That's not terribly uncommon, unfortunately. And I see
folks who have claimed to suffer from blindness, uh you know,
full blindness participating in events that it's a parent that
site is essential to be able to participate. So I've
seen those kind of We've seen you know, people start
(14:42):
new businesses while they're unable to work. Not that that's
you know, that's exciting, but it is kind of odd
that they say they can't work, but they started a
new business. I've seen some just utilizing the technology, which
again it's been a game changer of literally creating fake
(15:05):
payroll checks to get benefits from us. I mean, anything
you can imagine or anything a human being can imagine.
That's the only thing that limits the type of scenarios
that we're going to see. I mean, anything you can
think of, someone will try it, and then you know
we'll have to do our best to uncover it and
(15:25):
stop those benefits from going out. But yeah, the only
limitation I think is people's imaginations. If that helps answer
your question, I hope yes.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Now, you spoke previously about kind of online schemes that
people are moving towards. What are the most common things
you're seeing now? Is it that or is it other
types of products?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I mean, the most common, especially with the claim its,
is still the traditional working while receiving benefits. I mean,
that's still the kind of not to be cliche, but
the kind of the bread and butter. We still see
a lot of folks who decide that they wish to
try to work while receiving a benefit from the state.
That is it. It actually sometimes does shock me that
(16:12):
that's still the most prevalent, because it's it's just it's
what we do, and people still decide that somehow they're
going to be able to get away with it, and
you know, I assume some do. But I also have
to know that we're fairly successful. So I'm sure there's questions.
I know there's quite of you don't, but you know,
that's still the most prevalent one that we see is
the working while receiving benefits or attempting to get benefits
(16:34):
while you're working, and that's most that's the most common
one I run across still to this day.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
What kind of changes in technology and tools available to
you have you have you seen to combat fraud over
the years.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
The advantage of technology have been very significant. And again
I kind of give away kind of you're kind of
give away my age, but which is fine. But when
I started, you know, cameras still use film, and video
cameras use magnetic tapes and analog technology and telephoto lens
were sometimes as long as my forearm, and they were bulky,
(17:16):
and everything was difficult to conceal. And you know, with
this advent of digital technology and digital cameras, and you know,
film is now reserved for artistic pursuits. Everything's digital and
it's you know, on SD cards or even smaller at times,
are internal hard drives. So that's changed the nature and
(17:38):
the size of the tools that we use. We still
use cameras, but they're digital now and they're smaller, and
we don't need film, and it's all you know, downloaded
on computers and stuff. But even things that we take
most people take for granted today digital zoom and the
auto focus make our job as much easier. And that
(17:59):
was that was new at one time when I had started.
Something as simple as rewinding tape is no longer even necessary.
It's all that stuff has gone away. So this it's
moved rapidly. And as I said, I'm you know, twenty
eight years kind of a long time, but not super
terribly long, I guess, not centuries. But but the physical
(18:19):
size of these devices have diminished significantly. Concealment is much
easier than it used to be. Even the medium on
which the images are now captured has changed significantly. That
smaller you can put a lot more, the images are better.
All that has really changed dramatically, even the aspect of
(18:41):
doing your work in the field and capturing activities in
the field. Advances in computing have had profound effects. I mean,
it's it sounds almost silly to say, but when we started,
we wrote notes on paper, you know, and then we
moved to a computers that were in reality glorified glorified typewriters,
(19:03):
and then move out rapidly into software programs on powerful
PCs that do nothing but capture all the work that
a fraud investigator does, dedicated just to capturing their work.
So we've done those things as well during that time.
(19:24):
Many of the tools that we use today or just
they simply weren't there when I started, and they greatly
have increased our productivity and our ability to go out
do things covertly and then maintain good quality images and
stuff of the work that they do out in the field.
We also the one thing that's I guess it's been
(19:46):
an interest to me is we have a team of
we have dedicated professionals that deal with vast amounts of
electronic information, the data that you know that runs so
much of the world today. They're always searching for anomalies
and trends that may indicate that we have fraudy and activities.
And when I started, data was a piece of paper
(20:07):
that had to be looked at almost individually. And now
you have people that understand how to use software programs
and they can view it rapidly and then they can,
you know, help you visualize what you're actually seeing. Just
I don't know, for some context, I was looking at
some things the other day. In nineteen ninety four is
(20:27):
roughly when I started, four point eight people in the
United States. Four point eight people out of one hundred
in the United States had access to the Internet. In
nineteen and twenty twenty two, that number rows to ninety
seven out of one hundred people have access to the Internet.
So that jump in technology and that jump in everybody
using technology has been very profound. You know, our equipment
(20:51):
is much better than it ever was when I started.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, Joe, I will date myself because I worked in
the department from ninety three to ninety six when I
was in law school, so thirty one years ago to
twenty eight years ago, and what you're talking about in
terms of technology. So I was on a healthcare provider team,
and I remember the only way we could analyze data
(21:17):
was to dump it all into an Excel spreadsheet and
then try to do different ways of sorting it. But
it was a very manual, cumbersome process. Now you've mentioned
I mean, obviously some of the some of the gear
when you're doing undercover work and things out in the
field and surveillance is just so much better than what
(21:41):
would have existed three decades ago. But I'm curious, especially
when you mentioned about all of that data and being
able to analyze it for trends. To what extent you
see things about like AI. We hear about that in
all different aspects of life now to can you talk
to that in terms of, you know, those AI concepts
(22:06):
that are now being used to analyze data probably in
minutes or seconds compared to what used to take us
days and weeks.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I'll do my best to address that, because that's interesting
you say that I've seen recently come across the desk,
emails and initiatives inside the division and addressing what AI
is going to do to our process as investigators and
to the process of claims. I'm not well versed in
I understand the concept, but I'm not well versed in
(22:39):
how it works or what it will do. But I
do know that it is I think it is the
that is, maybe it's I date myself, it's the next
great thing. I think it's here in many ways, but
we're still trying to sort out exactly what it's going
to do for us. I know that, as I kind
of mentioned, we have actors on the outside that try
(23:02):
to get into our systems, and I don't know what
technology they're using, but I just have to imagine that
it has some sort of AI component in it, trying
to mimi in some way what an injured worker would
go through. I don't know. It's all new. All we
do is and that was why one of your initial
questions was difficult the trends, because I'm in it every
(23:23):
day and I've been doing this for so long. This
is just the next thing. I mean, initially, you know,
we literally started with people acid washing checks and writing
them and writing new things in them. And then you know,
now we have people cloning EEDT cards, and then it
moves on to the next thing. And right now it
appears the next thing is people that have no injuries whatsoever,
(23:45):
filing applications, seeing what flies, see what sticks, and you know,
we don't know. You have to do your due diligence
and make sure you try to capture and catch all
of those. But with a computer, where it used to
take you ten minutes to fill out the old application,
you can do hundreds and submit them through the online process.
(24:07):
And then we have to do our best to try
to you know, diciphle which ones are legitimate, which ones
are not and that's just probably going to continue, and
I don't think that will ever end, and we'll do
our best to capture those and then react to especially can.
I wish I understood more about AI, but I think
it's gonna be one of the things I'm going to
have to learn because that's going to be the next
(24:29):
weapon or next tool that they use to try to,
you know, do damage to the state fund. Hop that helps. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
So even with those new tools, though, do you find
that some of the old tools of just getting out
in the field doing surveillance, you know, interrogation and questioning,
getting records and those sort of things, are those still
effective today?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Oh? Absolutely. I mean, we we have an internal training
department and all of our new employees I still practically
in the field on interviews and on surveillance. It's a
it's a skill that I don't see being replaced, even
with the advent of of all the proliferation of cameras
that are everywhere, A dedicated professional with a really good
(25:15):
piece of equipment that wants to spend their time, you know,
toning in on a specific subject is going to be
very successful. And as you know, well both you guys
attorneys video doesn't lie, it doesn't have a side, It
just it just captures what happens. And you'll never I
don't know that we'll ever replace a good quality of surveillance,
(25:37):
operation and interviewing skills are still essential. I mean, you know,
you still have to have that human human interaction and
and and really try to decipher the best you can
what was fraudulent and what was intentionally and simply what
was something that a person didn't understand. Maybe. So yeah,
those those basic fundamental skills will never go away. That
(26:01):
that's the which is good because of my age. I
like that we still need those skills, you know. But
uh but even even the young the younger generation that's
coming in, they're being trained, you know, on proper surveillance
and how to how to do it, and interrogation and
interview techniques and all the old stuff. The documentation you
(26:21):
still have to sometimes you still have to go on
foot and and pick up the records and in those
kinds of things still happens that way. So yeah, I
think it there'll always be a place for that.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Joe, let me pivot a little bit here. So recommendations
that you and the agency would make to employers and
their representatives and attorneys. What can they do that's most
helpful to your agency to deter and catch fraudsters.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Not to be too abrupt, but pay attention to your
claims manager came claims closely. If something appears off, it
probably is off. Let us know, give us a call,
send us an email. We'll evaluate it. We'll go right
through everything, and if it's warranted, we will investigate it.
The Bureau has utilize the resources that the Bureau has.
(27:18):
Whether you're self insured or state funded in Ohio doesn't matter.
Our services are available to you as well, regardless of
what kind of claim, what kind of insurance you have.
Reach out to us, talk to us, tell us what
you're seeing, and as I said, we'll look at it.
We will. We do not, we do not not take allegations.
(27:39):
If you call us and it will get injured in
the system and someone, more likely a fraud analyst, will
take a look at it and see whether there's anything
in there. If there's something that we feel as off
as well, we will investigate it. You know that's we
are extremely aggressive and we will we will investigate those allegations. Now,
we don't always have good news I mean sometimes I
(28:01):
don't want to, you know, ever tell me whether all
the cases are founded or not. But we will look
and if there's something wrong, we will do our due
diligence to make sure that that gets investigated and explained.
And we pride ourselves on, you know, reaching back out
and talking to the sources of information. You can be
anonymous if you wish, but as a as a as
(28:22):
an employer, you don't have to be. You can tell
us you are and we'll call you back. You can
call up and ask for statuses. And you know, sometimes
we're not as fast as you'd like us to be.
But you know, sometimes things occur in the investigative process
that just do take time, and but we will always
follow through and at the end we we call, We
(28:42):
let you know what we found out too. So yeah,
I be involved in the claient. You know, if you
if you have questions, reach out to us. We will
help you as best we can. That's what we're here for.
That's why we're employed to do this so.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Well. Joe product person differently with different processes and regulatory
systems in different states. What have you learned? Are some
truths that apply across jurisdictions nationwide.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Not the wax too philosophical on you, but regardless of jurisdiction,
regardless of what part of the country you are in,
someone is going to attempt to defraud any benefit program
that any agency or any state comes up with. That's
just seems to be universal. If there's a benefit program,
someone's going to try to defraud it. And I think
regardless of the description jurisdiction outside of Ohio, I've seen,
(29:36):
as I mentioned earlier about California fraud detection units are serious,
and they're motivated, and they're all about detecting a workers
comp fraud as its own specific type of fraud. I
think that they're starting to realize that the amount of
fraudulent workers' comp claims and the amount of money that
(29:58):
it costs you and the volume of a fraudulent activity
has kind of been an awakening of sorts about the
enormity of this issue of workers compensation fraud specifically, not
just the general fraud term. Here in Ohio, where premiums
are our premiums come from our employers. You know, we've
been on the front lines combating this since eineteen ninety
(30:19):
three when we were formed in the in the way
that we are now, we're narrowly focused on workers comp fraud,
and I don't mean that a negative. We work on
a workers comp fraud. That's what we do. We're not
burdened by being responsible for other benefit programs. We're you know,
we don't do any other programs. We do workers comp
and this allows us to focus very intently on this
(30:43):
one area. And I think that as it's just my
opinion that as other jurisdictions begin to look at workers
comp fraud and all the the cost of it that
they will, they too will have if they don't already
have dedicated workers comp fraud units, And I think they'll
(31:03):
all see that that's necessary and they'll all start kind
of moving in that direction. That's just my opinion.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Is there any training you've come across that you would
recommend for employers, attorneys or insurers?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Okay, that's that's a tough one, because I'm hesitant to
recommend one training over another. I don't know. I don't
know that I should make that kind of recommendation only
because I don't want to advocate for one over another.
But I can tell you this, if you're in Ohio
and we have units that are made up of a
(31:40):
very diverse group of investigators, supervisors, analysts, and we can
we can help you with any of the areas injured worker, healthcare,
or employer and we are We deliver presentations ranging from
general overviews of our department to very specific related fraud
(32:03):
topics if that's something you're interested in. We have a
dedicated training manager who if you reach out, well, we
can put you in touch with him. He's an experienced
investigator as well, and he is one who can help
you if you want specific trainings tailored to you. He
can work with in our department. I'm sure we can
(32:24):
find someone who would be willing to come out and
present on a topic that you find interest So egilize
us as well if you're in Ohio specifically, we do
we do presentations out in the general public. We do
it quite often, so I hate that it sounds like
a shameless plug. But if you're you know, looking for
(32:46):
some good information about Ohio workers comp fraud, there is
a group of really well versed fraud investigators, analysts, supervisors
who will be more than willing to come out and
talk to you about general workers come fraud or even
something specific to maybe an industry or something like that.
(33:07):
So yeah, give us a call.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
So Joe, we want to thank you for your time today.
But as we wrap up here, if folks do want
to get in touch with the Ohio Special Investigations Department,
what is the best way for them to get in
touch with you?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Guys? We're actually pretty easy to find one eight hundred
Ohio BWC and you can follow the fraud options to
find us as well. There's a www. BWC dot Ohio
dot gov. Again, follow the fraud options. We're there. We
have a Ohio BWC fraud on X the form of Twitter.
(33:45):
Still can't get X in my head, it's always going
to be Twitter, I think. But anyway, and Ohio BWC
Fraud can be found to a general search on Facebook.
We have Facebook page as well. We're fairly easy to find.
We intentionally are easy to find. So yeah, anybody can
just reach out and don't be concerned about where you're
at in the state or whether you're finding the right team.
(34:08):
You tell whoever answers what you're looking for, and we
will find the right people to get you there. May
take a a couple hours. Torow it through the right
visions and the right people. But we will don't be
concerned that you're in the northern part of the state
and you end up talking to someone and it doesn't matter.
We'll take those calls, we'll take that information, and we'll
put you in touch with the right people.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Thak Well, thank you so much for your time today.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Thank you. It's a pleasure being with you guys.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Thanks Joe, thank you.
Welcome back to another episode of the Conversations podcast podcasts
developed through the Defense Research Institute, where we discuss the
world of workers compensation, exploring issues involving occupational injuries, treatment, claims, management,
and litigation, as well as future trends and emerging issues
(00:39):
in this area of law. My name is Shane Dawson,
and I'm here with Jennifer White, a founding member of
the Tennessee and Kentucky firm of Peterson White. We are
delighted to have Joe Depolo with us today on today's
podcast to talk about fraud in workers' compensation claims from claimants, providers,
and employers. Joe is with the Ohio Bureau Workers Compensation,
(01:03):
serving as the Assistant Special Agent in charge, overseeing a
team of investigators and analysts that cover the southeastern part
of Ohio. He previously worked on teams focused on healthcare
provider fraud and served as a fraud analyst for Ohio BWC. Today,
Joe will talk to us about trends in different types
(01:24):
of workers compensation fraud, as well as some of the
tools and technology that they are using to help detect
and stop fraud. Joe Apollo, Welcome to comp conversations.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you, thank you again, Thank you again for joining us.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Jack.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What is your We'll just start off just talking a
little bit about your background. What is your background? Is
training before joining the Ohio BWCSID.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
OH many minions ago Air Force vets, part of the
JAG Corps when I was there, not a lawyer, just
as a one of the assigned to the JAG Corps
when I was in the Air Force, a little bit
of private employment time after I got out of the service,
joined the Bureau in about ninety four, actually in the
claims and then I parlayed my military experience into a
(02:13):
position with the Workers Count Fraud Unit. I've had some
stints along the way with the Ohio Medical Board as
an enforcement agent, and have various roles here at BWC
as Shane Ludisow as a Frouday analyst, as a special agent,
and now is the ASAC for the team here in Coormus.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So how long have you been with the unit.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
I've been with the state twenty eight years. I've been
with the unit around the state at least twenty twenty
five years somewhere around and I'm sorry, I had a
couple of jobs in between, I left the agency and returned.
So I left for a while, went to the State
Medical Board as an enforcement agent, and then returned And
I've been here since. Oh boy, another fifteen years, I think. Sorry,
(03:00):
it all just kind of runs together. It's been a
long time. So, but over twenty eight years with the state,
most of them with workers comp What is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
The size of Ohio's sid and how much fraud are
we talking about? That's Oncoverty each year?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Right now? There's about one hundred and sixteen dedicated professionals
in our units across the state. And I guess if
you're talking about there's eight service offices across the state,
and each one of those offices may have a one
or all the representative teams held within we're talking about. Well,
(03:41):
if if industry projections are correct, they say that five
to ten percent of all workers' comp clans are fraudulent
in the state of Ohio, and if that is accurate,
that would be about sixty five million to two hundred
and six five million in fraud in the Ohio alone.
(04:04):
I was reading the other day that in California, the
Santa Barbara County recently started a workers compensation fraud program,
and their figures kind of do work ours. They have
about ten billion dollars in workers comp benefits each year
in California and they estimate the ten to thirty percent
of those are fraudulent. And that's true, that would equate
(04:25):
to about five billion dollars each year. And I can
give you some and from I mean, our fiscal year
twenty three stats are out. I mean we've you know,
we received in Ohio for workers' comp. We received twenty
three hundred plus allegations of fraud. We closed over thirteen
(04:48):
hundred cases this year. We made one hundred and eighteen
referrals for criminal prosecution, convicted seventy nine people this fiscal year,
and we recognize seventy three point five million dollars in
savings to the state front in the last fiscal year.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Now, Joe, Joe, Among all those different allegations, the different referrals,
convictions and savings, what are the different types of fraud
that the agency investigates.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Well, obviously, as you're well aware, there's one overriding workers
compensation fraud statue, and the division internally breaks that down
into three primary functions. We have claimant, our insured worker teams,
We have healthcare fraud unit, and we have an employer
(05:44):
fraud unit as well. We have some ancillary units that
are obviously vital to what we do. They're not considered
field investigators, but they're part and parcel of what the
division does every day. In the Computer Forensics and Intelligence Unit,
those kind of folks, they're with us as well. But
the primary three focuses are injured worker, healthcare, and the
(06:08):
employer fraud teams.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And among those, you know, you talked about seventy three
point five million in identified savings. How do those different
areas or types of fraud compare in terms of the
size and scope with with what you end up saving
the state.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Well, that's difficult because each one is so very different
because of the type of case that they investigate. Obviously,
the employers are dealing with premiums from the employers, the
claimant teams, our teams we deal with the benefits paid
to the injured workers, and then the healthcare is they're
(06:49):
concerned with the healthcare providers and the payments that they
that they're given for the services they provide. So that's
difficult for me to kind of break down any farther
than that, I know that's not a great answer, but
I'm not sure if I can give you numbers on
different parts, I don't. I don't have that with me
right now.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Even with our numbers on it. Joe, just kind of anecdotally,
what you know, how big is the you know, claimant
broad problem versus say, healthcare provider fraud.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
SEV are going to be the claimant fraud the claimant
fraud cases healthcare is a much smaller two three four percent,
and then employer makes up that other twenty twenty three
twenty four percent roughly of our case of our case
loads right now, there are three regional claimant teams throughout
(07:47):
the state. There are the healthcare team and the employer teams.
There are statewide teams, so there's more. There's a larger
group of injured worker frauds. We have smaller units in
smaller parts of the state to kind of help take
care of the volume of those kinds of cases that
we work, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, ALUs the way fraud has been committed changed over
the years.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Oh boy, that's that's difficult to answer. Because I've been
in this profession so long. That is something that I
just it's my work. So it's just something that comes
at me every day. But I can tell you that
the technology has changed the way that fraud can happen.
(08:41):
I mean in general, I'm sorry, I'm trying to articulate
this better, but being in the profession, it's just a
day to day these things, just these fraud schemes just
evolve from one to the next, rather slowly at times.
But REEF with the ads in of technology and as
(09:05):
new programs and benefits are unveiled by the agency, we
see a trend that's a little bit different than it
has been. There's been this trend towards automation across almost
all of society. Everything we want to do is now automated,
and that's made a little more attractive I think for
a new kind of criminal to come in and try
to take advantage a fraud, and they do that through
(09:27):
a computer. When I began many many years ago, injured
worker fraud required human intervention. It had there had to
be some sort of human contact. And now that has
gone away, and we have actors that can basically try
and commit fraud through a computer. You don't even have
to be party to the claim. And generally, when I
(09:49):
when I started this, you were party to a claim
and one of those parties might be the actor trying
to initiate a fraud, a fraud scheme. But now with
the automation piece of it, you can log in and
create identities and you can try to divert the payment
where the payments go through the use of a computer
(10:11):
without any human intervention. That's kind of been a kind
of an interesting in a big change that I've seen
within the past few years. It was just it's just
interesting to watch as people from we don't even know
whether they're in Ohio, you know, attempt to contact us
and change the payment vehicle and have that those money
(10:34):
is diverted to a different account. And if you kind
of put that together with these facets of identity theft,
and once again these folks can use technology and they
will try to log in and and and alter who's
(10:55):
receiving the funds and where those funds will go. They
assume the identity of a loved one or a family
member and then they try to, you know, have that
money sent to a different kind of account. I mean,
when I began, we had paper checks and brick and
mortar financial institutions, and then we moved to ebt cards,
and then you move from ebt cards to a direct
(11:17):
deposit kind of situation. And now we have these internet
banks that don't have physical locations anymore. So now you
have people that try to log in, try to get
into our system and divert these payments and send them
to these these web based banks. So that's that's a
lot different. I mean, because when I started, you had
(11:39):
to have a paper check and an ink signature, and
if you wanted to change that, you had to be
prolific enough to actually physically change the way a check looked.
And now if your computer savvy, you could just use
a computer keyboard to try to commit fraud, which is
kind of interesting and new.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
What are the kinds of differences you see in front
between claimants and healthcare and employers.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's it's quite different. I mean, you know, injury, the
claimant fraud is is personal. It's usually performed generally by,
you know, someone who decides that they wish to try
to obtain a benefit that they that they haven't that
they're not entitled to. Health care fraud, you know, generally
it's providers who wish to a bill for services they're
(12:28):
not rendered. You know, to us, that's still pretty much
the driving force behind most of what they do. And
I'm not in that unit, so I hate to speak
too distinctly about what all they do. But as you know,
as certain trends in healthcare change, their cases will reflect that.
For instance, pill mills were extremely prolific many years ago.
(12:51):
Those have decreased, so their case flow has changed now
and they're you know, service is not rendered are still
the prime driver of the fraudulent cases that they do,
and e f T the employer fraud folks. They still
deal a lot with employers who want to miss categorize
(13:14):
or their employees to put them in a lower classification
so that their premiums are cheaper. And they also try
to represent that some employees are actually independent contractors when
in fact they're they're employees. And that's a lot of
things that they deal with. I think that's fairly constant
across the board.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
What's the most unusual seme you've encountered so far?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Oh? Wow, that's kind of hard to nail down, because
every every attempt is kind of unusual the first time,
and then you know, after a while it it becomes
kind of common. So, but because if it becomes common,
because it's attempted more and more time times. But you know,
(14:01):
I and not to give you know, real specifics, but
I've seen, you know, cases where clayets represent that they're
they need a motorized wheelchair to embulate and then you know,
after they leave an examination, they're miraculously able to walk,
you know, after they leave. And you know, we've we've
(14:21):
seen these. That's not terribly uncommon, unfortunately. And I see
folks who have claimed to suffer from blindness, uh you know,
full blindness participating in events that it's a parent that
site is essential to be able to participate. So I've
seen those kind of We've seen you know, people start
(14:42):
new businesses while they're unable to work. Not that that's
you know, that's exciting, but it is kind of odd
that they say they can't work, but they started a
new business. I've seen some just utilizing the technology, which
again it's been a game changer of literally creating fake
(15:05):
payroll checks to get benefits from us. I mean, anything
you can imagine or anything a human being can imagine.
That's the only thing that limits the type of scenarios
that we're going to see. I mean, anything you can
think of, someone will try it, and then you know
we'll have to do our best to uncover it and
(15:25):
stop those benefits from going out. But yeah, the only
limitation I think is people's imaginations. If that helps answer
your question, I hope yes.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Now, you spoke previously about kind of online schemes that
people are moving towards. What are the most common things
you're seeing now? Is it that or is it other
types of products?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I mean, the most common, especially with the claim its,
is still the traditional working while receiving benefits. I mean,
that's still the kind of not to be cliche, but
the kind of the bread and butter. We still see
a lot of folks who decide that they wish to
try to work while receiving a benefit from the state.
That is it. It actually sometimes does shock me that
(16:12):
that's still the most prevalent, because it's it's just it's
what we do, and people still decide that somehow they're
going to be able to get away with it, and
you know, I assume some do. But I also have
to know that we're fairly successful. So I'm sure there's questions.
I know there's quite of you don't, but you know,
that's still the most prevalent one that we see is
the working while receiving benefits or attempting to get benefits
(16:34):
while you're working, and that's most that's the most common
one I run across still to this day.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
What kind of changes in technology and tools available to
you have you have you seen to combat fraud over
the years.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
The advantage of technology have been very significant. And again
I kind of give away kind of you're kind of
give away my age, but which is fine. But when
I started, you know, cameras still use film, and video
cameras use magnetic tapes and analog technology and telephoto lens
were sometimes as long as my forearm, and they were bulky,
(17:16):
and everything was difficult to conceal. And you know, with
this advent of digital technology and digital cameras, and you know,
film is now reserved for artistic pursuits. Everything's digital and
it's you know, on SD cards or even smaller at times,
are internal hard drives. So that's changed the nature and
(17:38):
the size of the tools that we use. We still
use cameras, but they're digital now and they're smaller, and
we don't need film, and it's all you know, downloaded
on computers and stuff. But even things that we take
most people take for granted today digital zoom and the
auto focus make our job as much easier. And that
(17:59):
was that was new at one time when I had started.
Something as simple as rewinding tape is no longer even necessary.
It's all that stuff has gone away. So this it's
moved rapidly. And as I said, I'm you know, twenty
eight years kind of a long time, but not super
terribly long, I guess, not centuries. But but the physical
(18:19):
size of these devices have diminished significantly. Concealment is much
easier than it used to be. Even the medium on
which the images are now captured has changed significantly. That
smaller you can put a lot more, the images are better.
All that has really changed dramatically, even the aspect of
(18:41):
doing your work in the field and capturing activities in
the field. Advances in computing have had profound effects. I mean,
it's it sounds almost silly to say, but when we started,
we wrote notes on paper, you know, and then we
moved to a computers that were in reality glorified glorified typewriters,
(19:03):
and then move out rapidly into software programs on powerful
PCs that do nothing but capture all the work that
a fraud investigator does, dedicated just to capturing their work.
So we've done those things as well during that time.
(19:24):
Many of the tools that we use today or just
they simply weren't there when I started, and they greatly
have increased our productivity and our ability to go out
do things covertly and then maintain good quality images and
stuff of the work that they do out in the field.
We also the one thing that's I guess it's been
(19:46):
an interest to me is we have a team of
we have dedicated professionals that deal with vast amounts of
electronic information, the data that you know that runs so
much of the world today. They're always searching for anomalies
and trends that may indicate that we have fraudy and activities.
And when I started, data was a piece of paper
(20:07):
that had to be looked at almost individually. And now
you have people that understand how to use software programs
and they can view it rapidly and then they can,
you know, help you visualize what you're actually seeing. Just
I don't know, for some context, I was looking at
some things the other day. In nineteen ninety four is
(20:27):
roughly when I started, four point eight people in the
United States. Four point eight people out of one hundred
in the United States had access to the Internet. In
nineteen and twenty twenty two, that number rows to ninety
seven out of one hundred people have access to the Internet.
So that jump in technology and that jump in everybody
using technology has been very profound. You know, our equipment
(20:51):
is much better than it ever was when I started.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, Joe, I will date myself because I worked in
the department from ninety three to ninety six when I
was in law school, so thirty one years ago to
twenty eight years ago, and what you're talking about in
terms of technology. So I was on a healthcare provider team,
and I remember the only way we could analyze data
(21:17):
was to dump it all into an Excel spreadsheet and
then try to do different ways of sorting it. But
it was a very manual, cumbersome process. Now you've mentioned
I mean, obviously some of the some of the gear
when you're doing undercover work and things out in the
field and surveillance is just so much better than what
(21:41):
would have existed three decades ago. But I'm curious, especially
when you mentioned about all of that data and being
able to analyze it for trends. To what extent you
see things about like AI. We hear about that in
all different aspects of life now to can you talk
to that in terms of, you know, those AI concepts
(22:06):
that are now being used to analyze data probably in
minutes or seconds compared to what used to take us
days and weeks.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I'll do my best to address that, because that's interesting
you say that I've seen recently come across the desk,
emails and initiatives inside the division and addressing what AI
is going to do to our process as investigators and
to the process of claims. I'm not well versed in
I understand the concept, but I'm not well versed in
(22:39):
how it works or what it will do. But I
do know that it is I think it is the
that is, maybe it's I date myself, it's the next
great thing. I think it's here in many ways, but
we're still trying to sort out exactly what it's going
to do for us. I know that, as I kind
of mentioned, we have actors on the outside that try
(23:02):
to get into our systems, and I don't know what
technology they're using, but I just have to imagine that
it has some sort of AI component in it, trying
to mimi in some way what an injured worker would
go through. I don't know. It's all new. All we
do is and that was why one of your initial
questions was difficult the trends, because I'm in it every
(23:23):
day and I've been doing this for so long. This
is just the next thing. I mean, initially, you know,
we literally started with people acid washing checks and writing
them and writing new things in them. And then you know,
now we have people cloning EEDT cards, and then it
moves on to the next thing. And right now it
appears the next thing is people that have no injuries whatsoever,
(23:45):
filing applications, seeing what flies, see what sticks, and you know,
we don't know. You have to do your due diligence
and make sure you try to capture and catch all
of those. But with a computer, where it used to
take you ten minutes to fill out the old application,
you can do hundreds and submit them through the online process.
(24:07):
And then we have to do our best to try
to you know, diciphle which ones are legitimate, which ones
are not and that's just probably going to continue, and
I don't think that will ever end, and we'll do
our best to capture those and then react to especially can.
I wish I understood more about AI, but I think
it's gonna be one of the things I'm going to
have to learn because that's going to be the next
(24:29):
weapon or next tool that they use to try to,
you know, do damage to the state fund. Hop that helps. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
So even with those new tools, though, do you find
that some of the old tools of just getting out
in the field doing surveillance, you know, interrogation and questioning,
getting records and those sort of things, are those still
effective today?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Oh? Absolutely. I mean, we we have an internal training
department and all of our new employees I still practically
in the field on interviews and on surveillance. It's a
it's a skill that I don't see being replaced, even
with the advent of of all the proliferation of cameras
that are everywhere, A dedicated professional with a really good
(25:15):
piece of equipment that wants to spend their time, you know,
toning in on a specific subject is going to be
very successful. And as you know, well both you guys
attorneys video doesn't lie, it doesn't have a side, It
just it just captures what happens. And you'll never I
don't know that we'll ever replace a good quality of surveillance,
(25:37):
operation and interviewing skills are still essential. I mean, you know,
you still have to have that human human interaction and
and and really try to decipher the best you can
what was fraudulent and what was intentionally and simply what
was something that a person didn't understand. Maybe. So yeah,
those those basic fundamental skills will never go away. That
(26:01):
that's the which is good because of my age. I
like that we still need those skills, you know. But
uh but even even the young the younger generation that's
coming in, they're being trained, you know, on proper surveillance
and how to how to do it, and interrogation and
interview techniques and all the old stuff. The documentation you
(26:21):
still have to sometimes you still have to go on
foot and and pick up the records and in those
kinds of things still happens that way. So yeah, I
think it there'll always be a place for that.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Joe, let me pivot a little bit here. So recommendations
that you and the agency would make to employers and
their representatives and attorneys. What can they do that's most
helpful to your agency to deter and catch fraudsters.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Not to be too abrupt, but pay attention to your
claims manager came claims closely. If something appears off, it
probably is off. Let us know, give us a call,
send us an email. We'll evaluate it. We'll go right
through everything, and if it's warranted, we will investigate it.
The Bureau has utilize the resources that the Bureau has.
(27:18):
Whether you're self insured or state funded in Ohio doesn't matter.
Our services are available to you as well, regardless of
what kind of claim, what kind of insurance you have.
Reach out to us, talk to us, tell us what
you're seeing, and as I said, we'll look at it.
We will. We do not, we do not not take allegations.
(27:39):
If you call us and it will get injured in
the system and someone, more likely a fraud analyst, will
take a look at it and see whether there's anything
in there. If there's something that we feel as off
as well, we will investigate it. You know that's we
are extremely aggressive and we will we will investigate those allegations. Now,
we don't always have good news I mean sometimes I
(28:01):
don't want to, you know, ever tell me whether all
the cases are founded or not. But we will look
and if there's something wrong, we will do our due
diligence to make sure that that gets investigated and explained.
And we pride ourselves on, you know, reaching back out
and talking to the sources of information. You can be
anonymous if you wish, but as a as a as
(28:22):
an employer, you don't have to be. You can tell
us you are and we'll call you back. You can
call up and ask for statuses. And you know, sometimes
we're not as fast as you'd like us to be.
But you know, sometimes things occur in the investigative process
that just do take time, and but we will always
follow through and at the end we we call, We
(28:42):
let you know what we found out too. So yeah,
I be involved in the claient. You know, if you
if you have questions, reach out to us. We will
help you as best we can. That's what we're here for.
That's why we're employed to do this so.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
Well. Joe product person differently with different processes and regulatory
systems in different states. What have you learned? Are some
truths that apply across jurisdictions nationwide.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Not the wax too philosophical on you, but regardless of jurisdiction,
regardless of what part of the country you are in,
someone is going to attempt to defraud any benefit program
that any agency or any state comes up with. That's
just seems to be universal. If there's a benefit program,
someone's going to try to defraud it. And I think
regardless of the description jurisdiction outside of Ohio, I've seen,
(29:36):
as I mentioned earlier about California fraud detection units are serious,
and they're motivated, and they're all about detecting a workers
comp fraud as its own specific type of fraud. I
think that they're starting to realize that the amount of
fraudulent workers' comp claims and the amount of money that
(29:58):
it costs you and the volume of a fraudulent activity
has kind of been an awakening of sorts about the
enormity of this issue of workers compensation fraud specifically, not
just the general fraud term. Here in Ohio, where premiums
are our premiums come from our employers. You know, we've
been on the front lines combating this since eineteen ninety
(30:19):
three when we were formed in the in the way
that we are now, we're narrowly focused on workers comp fraud,
and I don't mean that a negative. We work on
a workers comp fraud. That's what we do. We're not
burdened by being responsible for other benefit programs. We're you know,
we don't do any other programs. We do workers comp
and this allows us to focus very intently on this
(30:43):
one area. And I think that as it's just my
opinion that as other jurisdictions begin to look at workers
comp fraud and all the the cost of it that
they will, they too will have if they don't already
have dedicated workers comp fraud units, And I think they'll
(31:03):
all see that that's necessary and they'll all start kind
of moving in that direction. That's just my opinion.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Is there any training you've come across that you would
recommend for employers, attorneys or insurers?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Okay, that's that's a tough one, because I'm hesitant to
recommend one training over another. I don't know. I don't
know that I should make that kind of recommendation only
because I don't want to advocate for one over another.
But I can tell you this, if you're in Ohio
and we have units that are made up of a
(31:40):
very diverse group of investigators, supervisors, analysts, and we can
we can help you with any of the areas injured worker, healthcare,
or employer and we are We deliver presentations ranging from
general overviews of our department to very specific related fraud
(32:03):
topics if that's something you're interested in. We have a
dedicated training manager who if you reach out, well, we
can put you in touch with him. He's an experienced
investigator as well, and he is one who can help
you if you want specific trainings tailored to you. He
can work with in our department. I'm sure we can
(32:24):
find someone who would be willing to come out and
present on a topic that you find interest So egilize
us as well if you're in Ohio specifically, we do
we do presentations out in the general public. We do
it quite often, so I hate that it sounds like
a shameless plug. But if you're you know, looking for
(32:46):
some good information about Ohio workers comp fraud, there is
a group of really well versed fraud investigators, analysts, supervisors
who will be more than willing to come out and
talk to you about general workers come fraud or even
something specific to maybe an industry or something like that.
(33:07):
So yeah, give us a call.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
So Joe, we want to thank you for your time today.
But as we wrap up here, if folks do want
to get in touch with the Ohio Special Investigations Department,
what is the best way for them to get in
touch with you?
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Guys? We're actually pretty easy to find one eight hundred
Ohio BWC and you can follow the fraud options to
find us as well. There's a www. BWC dot Ohio
dot gov. Again, follow the fraud options. We're there. We
have a Ohio BWC fraud on X the form of Twitter.
(33:45):
Still can't get X in my head, it's always going
to be Twitter, I think. But anyway, and Ohio BWC
Fraud can be found to a general search on Facebook.
We have Facebook page as well. We're fairly easy to find.
We intentionally are easy to find. So yeah, anybody can
just reach out and don't be concerned about where you're
at in the state or whether you're finding the right team.
(34:08):
You tell whoever answers what you're looking for, and we
will find the right people to get you there. May
take a a couple hours. Torow it through the right
visions and the right people. But we will don't be
concerned that you're in the northern part of the state
and you end up talking to someone and it doesn't matter.
We'll take those calls, we'll take that information, and we'll
put you in touch with the right people.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Thak Well, thank you so much for your time today.
We appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Thank you. It's a pleasure being with you guys.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Thanks Joe, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.